Judge John Hodgman - May it Please Descartes

Episode Date: May 5, 2021

KLAXON! It's the MaxFunDrive! The best time of year to show your support for what we do. Join us at MaximumFun.org/join! Drea brings the case against her husband, Morgan. Morgan believes that we are all living in a simulation. And he loves to talk about it. Drea disagrees and does not want to talk about this any longer. Who's right? Who's wrong?Thank you to Sean Flaherty for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, follow Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions there.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, may it please Descartes. Drea brings the case against her husband Morgan. Morgan believes we're all living in a simulation and he loves to talk about it. Drea disagrees and does not want to talk about this any longer. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. Oh, it's far deeper than any dream. I wonder where he thinks he is. Sitting on a throne, ruling the universe, a throne, ruling the universe, all you human garbage fawning at his feet. More honest, don't you think, than this pretense of being a selfless podcaster. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in. Drea and Morgan, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?

I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he has long lived in a simulation, specifically a game of SimAnt in a middle school computer room? Yes. Yes. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. I have aged,

but the SimAnts remain the same age. Dre and Morgan, you may be seated. First, before we begin, let the record show, please, producer Jennifer Marmer, that we are about to discuss the theory that we are

all living in a simulation, including the theory that that simulation may be being run by beings who are themselves part of an even larger simulation, so on and so forth, and that this particular discussion is taking place on this, our day of God or whatever, the 20th of April, 420. Good scheduling, Jennifer Marmer. Yeah. Welcome to our 4.20 episode,

where we are but a planet that is an atom in the fingernail of an uncaring God. Before me now sit Morgan and Drea for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can you guess the piece of culture that I referenced when I entered the courtroom? I am now able to see you via the magic slash curse of constant teleconferencing. I'm looking at Morgan's face and smile and concern that he is hiding a private glee, that he knew this one the moment he heard it, as he is a computer simulation theorist. I'll ask Drea first. What is your guess? I'm going to say it's really

based on the first part of what you were saying and it kind of rapidly became clear that that could not be what you were talking about because this is a children's book, but The Phantom Tollbooth. The Phantom Tollbooth. My favorite book as a child. No one knows what a tollbooth the phantom tollbooth my favorite book as a child no one knows what a tollbooth is anymore itself isn't as a thing of fantasy all right i shall enter that into the uh guest book drea

i'm stumbling over my words as i'm desperately trying to remember the name of the author of the phantom tollbooth. I cannot remember. I will not go to Wikipedia and have Jennifer Marmer edit it to make it seem like I knew what I was talking about. I do remember the book. I do remember the movie. Now, that is a good guess. Morgan, what is your guess? I mean, it sounds familiar. I'm going to say Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is a guess. Jennifer Marmer, you want to guess? 2001, A Space Odyssey.

Ah, good guess. And Jesse Thorne, you want to guess some kind of baseball trivia? Yeah. Is it Van lingel mungo quite unexpectedly given that morgan is a true convoisier of the simulation hypothesis the simulated reality hypothesis all guesses are wrong see because what i thought morgan you were going to say was well there's obviously a quote from the comic book story for the man who has everything written by Alan Moore and illustrated by Dave Gibbons in which the intergalactic villain Mongol gives Superman a quote-unquote present which is a plant called the Black Mercy which puts him into a state of dreaming in which he dreams his heart's desire. And he believes that he has never come to earth and grew up on Krypton and has a wife and children. And when he realizes that it's all an illusion,

a simulation, as it were, it is one of the most heartbreaking moments in comics when he says goodbye to his son. And then I would have said, you're wrong, Morgan. That quote is actually from the adaptation of that story for Justice League Unlimited

season one, episode two, written by J.M. DeMattis. But I didn't get to shut you down as I thought I might have to. So I guess we're going to have to shut you down or you, Drea, down by hearing this actual case. Drea, you bring this case before this court. State the nature of your complaint against your husband, correct? Husband? Yes, husband. Legal husband. Yes. All right. Good. What is the nature of your complaint against him? Originally, he became really interested in the idea of free will, specifically in the fact that

we don't have free will as humans. And this was before we had children. So we would go on vacations with some dear friends of ours. Sure. And what else do you do on a vacation, but just really get into free will as a topic? Really just dig into it, all the different components of it. And so, you know, especially once you're drinking, you know, then the conversation really gets heated. So it became a very common topic of discussion on these vacations. My initial complaint was that I would like for him to stop talking about free will, specifically on vacation. However, we had kids. Vacations ceased. You don't go with your friends anymore. Now you get drunk with your kids and talk about whether we live in a computer simulation.

They're four and two, so they're up for it. They're pretty smart. And so I had updated my request to say, I don't really want to talk about the world of the simulation because it gives me kind of existential anxiety to even consider it. However, there's one more iteration. I promise this is where it stops. So it feels mean to ask him not to talk about something. And that was my original complaint was that I don't want him to talk about it anymore.

But I do love him and I love talking to him. And so I think what I'm really asking at the end of the day is I would like for you to rule that the world itself is not a simulation. We'll consider what you're requesting of this court in due course. But I do need to understand. Morgan, do you have free will? I don't think so. Okay. So there's no way you can stop talking. Judge Hodgman, let the record reflect that I made him say that. Perfect. You are truly the Cartesian evil demon that is controlling all of Morgan's perceptions of the world and his will as well.

Where would you go on vacation? For this vacation, we were in Italy. And wasn't it Italy? Yeah, I think it was Italy um yeah so we were I don't know is that good enough or Florence I think we're in Florence we started off is that good enough I'm concerned you're going to foreign countries to have philosophical conversations

you could have in any college dorm room and not even remembering that you were in Florence, Italy. That is of a concern to me. Well, we were traveling around, so I don't remember exactly. I remember there was a pool involved, but we're sitting there. Who are these friends, Bill and Ted? What are their names? Jeff and Catherine. Jeff and Catherine. Yeah. And you were wandering around and you were talking about free will. What's your position on free will?

Well, I didn't really have one at the time, but I was listening to a bunch of podcasts that were talking about it. And I thought it was an interesting thing to kind of talk about. And everyone on the vacation, everyone else said that they had free will. So I was like, well, let me just kind of argue that we don't. Oh, boy. free will. So I was like, well, let me just kind of argue that we don't. And over the course of, of, uh, of, of 10 days, I think I argued myself into not believing that there's any free will. So, um, yeah. Let the record show to all within the sound of my ears, the devil needs no advocate. The devil's the devil. The devil can possess you, you make your bed shake make your head twist around

does not need an attorney does not need anyone to argue the devil's case but and you see what happened you argued the devil's case and you robbed yourself of free will you believe in some sort of determinism that all the choices that you make are written in a in fate or there is no control over your own thought and action? What? Well, I don't know if I'd go that far. I just I don't think that at the end of the day, there's like a little person in my head like or in anyone's head calling the shots. Like a lot of our decisions that we make are just kind of a product of our environment and the people we're with and what's going on.

I don't wish to paraphrase this particular popular thinker. You are the product of your reactive mind. Judge Hodgman, I went to a public university. Can I ask a point of clarification of you? Yes, please. Free will, that's short for free willy? Yes, it is. Short for free willy.

Yeah. Some believe that that movie doesn't exist. Got it. Some believe that their experience of watching that movie was simply a hallucination induced by some outside being. Wow. What Descartes considered theoretically as the evil genius or the evil demon. Rene Descartes, I think, therefore I am, is what he said. I guess I got to believe him. He was one of the early positers of the simulated universe theory. Right, Morgan? You back me up on that?

Yeah, so I'm not claiming to be an expert on this. This is strictly kitchen and poolside conversation. You are pure freestyling this. All right. I love it. Yeah, you're probably speaking to the least informed person on this actual topic. Well, maybe this devil doesn't need an advocate then. Maybe you should have hired an attorney to make, to argue the case that you have no free will. But

then again, I guess you had no choice. So understandably, the idea of whether or not we have a consciousness that can actually control and make decisions independent of our surroundings, I can feel that leading into the idea that we may be living in a simulation. Now, state the nature of the simulation as you understand it. Is it a computer simulation a la The Matrix? Is it the dreaming argument a la Rene Descartes and several Chinese philosophers? Is it some other kind of simulation, a Plato's cave? Are you currently strapped down looking at a projection on a wall of the back of a cave, maybe even the cave-iest cave?

And if so, blink twice if you need help. What is the nature of the simulation that you are describing? What's interesting about the idea is that if you think about the utility of simulating a universe, so if you actually could do that at some point, that could create a lot of value for society, right? Because you could go forward in time and you could bring back different technologies, art, all kinds of things and enjoy them today, right? So you could go forward in time and see what the cure to cancer is and then save lives. So there's a lot of reasons why if you could do it,

if a society could do it, they would choose to do it. Explain to me how a simulation would allow you to go forward in time. Okay. So if you're just simulating, let's say you're able to simulate a world, right? There's nothing that says you can't simulate. You have to simulate that world at the same rate of time that you're currently progressing, right? So you could start that simulation and then clocks just move, eventually it fast forwards and now it's whatever that simulated universe is, it's progressed more in time than you are in your current, your current universe. You could run your simulated universe at like 1.5 times speed or two times speed, like a podcast. Yeah, yeah. But it's not my preference. You probably have to be a lot, a much higher multiple.

I guess my concern is just that the simulation might ruin the comedic timing. Yeah, exactly. Although, you know, if you run the simulation at half speed, then everyone sounds drunk and it's a lot of fun. Yeah, that is pretty fun. Try it out on Pod Save America. It's really funny. Yeah, Pod Save America, chopped and screwed. It's really funny.

Yeah. Pod Save America, chopped and screwed. I think that you are gesturing towards Nick Bostrom's, and I apologize if I'm mispronouncing it. I'm sure that I am. It is B-O-S-T-R-O-M. It is a Swedish name for a Swedish man who's a philosopher at Oxford University. That's one of the bigs, Jesse Thorne. It's one of the bigs.

Yeah. It's Yale, Oxford, UC Santa Cruz. That's the of the bigs, Jesse Thorne. It's one of the bigs. Yeah. It's Yale, Oxford, UC Santa Cruz. That's the big three. Yeah. I mean, to give you a sense of how advanced they are in the Oxford philosophy department, they propose that there might even be a free willy two, that there might even be a second free willy, if you can imagine it. Yeah.

that there might even be a second Free Willy, if you can imagine it. Yeah. At UC Santa Cruz, I took a class on whether Free Willy existed. And it sort of all hinges on whether the world actually has been healed and made a better place. Sure. That makes sense. So Nick Bostrom, let's say that's how you pronounce his name. He did a big, big philosophical paper that explored whether or not we could be living in a simulation. And specifically, he had the idea that we are a simulation of the ancestors of a future post-human society that is able to run a simulation. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, Yeah. And so from the point of view of those evil demons who are running, to use the Cartesian term, those evil demons, those post-humans who

are running the simulation of what it was like in the old timey times of 420, 2021, yes, our future has been determined already. If the simulation is running, they could at any point pick the future part of the simulation and run the cure for cancer back to us. Is that the point you're making? I think that if the technology exists to do it, some society will be able to simulate the universe. And in that case, there's probably going to be more simulated universes than there are actual universes. And so, you know, it's possible that we live in a simulated universe. That's the basic thing that we talk about. Probably, but not certainly roller coaster

tycoon. That was a good game, Jesse Thorne, roller coaster tycoon. I loved it because you get to ride the roller coasters that you build. And it doesn't, obviously you can't simulate the sudden stops and starts. You don't feel your stomach dropping out from under you as you go down those steep inclines. But it's cool because you build a roller coaster and you get to ride it. And you're not only that, but you're having fun because you're riding in a simulated alternate universe where someone who builds roller coasters could be a total tycoon. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like a real Bill Gates. Yeah gates yeah right like elon musk like i've just i've decided i've decided to use my roller coaster earnings to fund malaria nets for the third world exactly that's a that's a great alternate universe drea i promise you we're going to come back back to human earth as we know it in a moment, but I need to probe Morgan's mind a little bit more. Because here's the thing, Morgan. I asked a simple question.

What is the nature of the simulation in which you think we are living? And you answered a very different question, which was, A a what is the likelihood that this is possible right yeah and b how can i morgan do it do you know what i mean like how okay like it seems like you're really thinking of this not as someone who might be subject to a simulation but from the outside if you're running a simulation you can give people the cure for cancer. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network,

boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep. That's the sound of you learning a sound to happen. Let's hear the sound. Yep. That's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10 minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're

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like an evil being who is running a simulation. Is that part more interesting to you or what well being god no um i don't really know what the nature of the simulation is i um i don't know that it matters i mean it could just be this whole everything could just be an illusion um but i mean it doesn't negate the fact that like, you know, I still love Drea and my family and people I work with and all that. What is it that interests you about the idea that everything is an illusion? I wouldn't say it's an illusion because it doesn't mean it feels any less real. I think fundamentally, when you think about like things like free will or we're living in a simulation, it's trying to understand like what you know where we sit in the universe and uh it's it's fun to like play around and talk

about those those ideas and you have not read even the wikipedia page for nick bostrom i have not read the wikipedia page for for nick i think it's bostrom. Oh, maybe in your universe. Here across the timeline portal, we say Bostrom. But you are familiar with him. Yeah, I'm familiar with him. Just if I may, the idea tickles you. The argument that the universe is so vast that it is possible that at least one species has reached presumably physical computational power. We're not talking about magic spells, right? Right. You're talking about the physical computational power to create a completely quantum computing simulation of a whole reality

in which they are applying to physical beings or now what beings of just pure ai which is your guess i'm not sure i understand the question are you a neo in a tube surrounded by goo or are you a non-player character in some computer simulation on a computer oh okay so so yeah i guess i'd be the latter right so just like a non-player character that's that's my. That's the dream. Yeah. It removes a lot of responsibility, doesn't it? Okay. Now I understand. Now I understand the nature of the simulation that I was asking you to describe. And I apologize for accusing you of not reading the appropriate Wikipedia page.

You obviously have done some research. Morgan, if we're all just non-player characters in a vast computer simulation, would it be possible for me to be one of those Koroks with the little nuts in Zelda Breath of the Wild where they go, hee hee, and then they give you a little nut? They're like a little kind of leaf man. Yeah. Can I be Tom Nook and own the mortgage of every house on this island? Dead Tom Nook's a real roller coaster tycoon. Can I be Tom Nook who gives everyone a tent and a cot the minute they arrive on the island, then charges them 49,000 bells for them and convinces them that digging weeds to pay off your mortgage is a game?

A fun game to play? All right, Morgan, the idea tickles you. You like to think about it. You like to think about the idea that you're just a non-player character in a vast computer simulation being run by some unknowable other future, perhaps future human race.

And you love thinking about the idea that your wife is also a free will-less non-player character who is just designed by a computer correct yeah when you put it like that sounds really cool there we go drea yes how do you feel when you are described by morgan as a non-player character in a computer simulation he would think everybody was that way. Right. So I don't take any personal offense to it. Well, I mean, at least, may I just say, at least Morgan isn't saying what I believed as an only child, which is I am the only real human being and everyone else is an Android programmed to trick me, including my own mom and dad. Yes. I'm glad. I'm glad he's not saying that. That's a good thing.

Yeah. I like that those Androids were so tricky, John. my own mom and dad yes i'm glad i'm glad he's not saying that that's a good thing yeah i like that those androids were so tricky john i mean no one knew what truman show was at the time i was being i was being raised in a dome by androids claiming to be my mom and dad and friends does it feel i dare say dehumanizing it's it's not that I find it dehumanizing because I don't believe in it. So where it gives, I think it gives Morgan comfort, would you say? Or like a sense of comforting detachment. It gives me anxiety. It gives me anxiety because I feel like a loss of control.

Let the record show that I observed the litigants who are standing together in their home. And I'm sorry, where do you live again? Orlando, Orlando, Florida. Oh, oh, I'm sorry. You live in a simulation. I didn't. I didn't know that we were getting we were getting beamed information directly from the Orlando Simu Dudome this has been going on for thousands of years you understand the orlando has been a strange experiment for a long time i didn't realize that okay yeah no um i can see you there and you said i what i think gives morgan comfort when he thinks about this i'm paraphrasing and i saw you looking to him, you know what I mean? And looking at his face, which seems real to me, and looking for him as feedback as you speculated as to what he might

feel, right? What I'd like you to do just as a experiment, you have no free will in this situation, so you have to do it. I want you to say what you think gives him comfort without looking at him. Just look at me. Don't take any feedback from him. Okay. Oh, he's even leaving the, well, he's a very compliant non-player character. Truly non-player. I'm very appreciative of you for understanding that there is some comfort that he is taking from it.

And I don't want you to hold back. He's got a very cute face and he has this very pleading look in his eyes. And I almost feel like, please don't tell the terrible secret of how I feel. So tell me about the comfort he feels in being detached. He's very smart. Very smart person. And so I think that this concept of a world where you really don't have control, the decisions that you make on a day-to-day basis don't necessarily rely on your intelligence or, you know, your experience, you don't have any

control. And there can be some type of release in that and just kind of being like, well, you know, that didn't go the way I planned, but it's not that big of a deal because it's outside of my control. Right. And I understand that. I can see how that would be comforting. Is that comforting to you, Morgan? The feeling that you are not responsible for your own actions, not accountable? I mean, unaccountability is fun. No, I feel accountable and responsible for my own actions.

And I think that's important. Yeah. Yeah. That was my misstatement, I feel accountable and responsible for my own actions. And I think that's important. Yeah. Yeah. That was my misstatement, I think. In your own words and looking only at me, I'll even turn off, you know what, I'll turn off my video so you can just speak into the endless void that you have no, that controls your thoughts, but you cannot control yourself. I mean, why does it it tickle you what comfort do you get from it i just think it's an i think it's an interesting idea and what like the implications of if it if everything is a simulation like what are the implications of that because i don't know there's a lot that we just don't know about like the world and like how we exist and everything and it's it's just i think it's fun to like think and talk about everything through that lens to kind of get it like the root of like what is existence like how you know what is our consciousness where to like we now that i think about it what i think that you just use it to comfort me. Oh.

So now that I'm thinking about it, it's more like when I come to him with a problem or I'm upset about something, he'll say, well, it's all just a simulation. Ah. That is, well, it is, I mean, it is really nice, like, when something doesn't go your way. Like, well, it's a simulation. It's going to happen that way anyway. I just assumed it comforted you, but now I see that it's just a. I just think it's interesting. I mean, I think it's a simulation it's gonna happen that way i just assumed it comforted you but now i see that it's just i just think it's i mean i think it's interesting you can see some i'm not i'm not religious so like when you start talking about things through through this kind of lens it it you know it's a way of understanding you know it's it almost becomes like a pseudo

religion kind of thing but it's not it's not something that like guides my day-to-day life i just um i uh i just think it's an interesting it's an interesting concept and what it means i noticed that you chose not to articulate how it made you feel emotionally oh um in other words you said i think it's interesting you did not say it makes me feel relieved or it makes me feel less anxious or it makes me feel more anxious because, you know, I have no control over my my life to a certain degree. This is a joke, but do you have emotions? Were you programmed with that? Yeah, no, I have emotions. It can be comforting to like think of things like that.

Think of the world as a simulation. That can be like a source of comfort. I don't think that's why I want to. I really would want to talk about it, though. It's more just to kind of. You just like the thought. You like the thought experiment. The thought experiment.

The thought experiment that we are all a thought experiment. Yeah. Well, look, I didn't I didn't want to bully you into admitting that you had emotions. I apologize, Morgan. And I want to acknowledge that, you know, we, we, we all have an inner life, but that inner life is accessed in different ways by different people. And so I don't, you know, didn't mean to put you on the spot there. Just wanted to try to get to the bottom of some of this stuff. Now, Drea. Yes.

You went through a number of rulings that you would like me to offer. A whole thought process. A whole philosophical system of its own. Apologies. No, no, don't apologize. Help me remember. The first was he should stop talking about it. Yes, the first was that he should stop talking about it on vacation specifically. Does it dominate the whole vacation? I mean, obviously, you don't even remember where you were because you were so much about how you have no real

existence right uh no it doesn't dominate is it uncomfortable it is uncomfortable for me because it gives me anxiety i don't like to think okay i'm all i'm all for a philosophical conversation but this specific topic gives me anxiety. Have you tried explaining that to him before? We've kind of talked, yeah, we've, we've talked about it a little bit, mostly in jest. I'm sure if I, um, if I was more firm about it, a lot of times what would happen is I would just focus my conversation with Catherine, you know, and we would keep talking, we would talk about something else entirely. And he and Jeff would keep. He and Jeff would just keep getting into it and into it.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Deeper and deeper into the quantum realm. Yeah, pretty much. But, you know, that's obviously, I mean, hopefully we'll go on vacation with him one day. And you will. There is a difference, obviously, between, you know, when you're on vacation and a couple of people want to talk about sports all the time. A couple of people don't.

Unless you're me, sports conversations do not spark existential crises. It sounds like for you, you feel a kind of existential anxiety. Yes. Yes. I would agree with that. Because the idea of a simulated universe or that this is all a dream or an illusion makes you feel. It makes me feel icky. I don't like the idea that I don't have control over day to day goings on in my own life and that we're not real or that we're controlled by something all knowing.

I think a lot of people would have, you know, feel, maybe feel the same way. Sure. Okay. Now, then you said, I don't have to ban the conversation. You don't want to rob him of his fun. Exactly. And I also don't think it's fair to say, to put anything on kind of like a ban in terms of conversation.

Well, I mean, you know, with limits, but I, we've never had to ban anything on kind of like a ban in terms of conversation. Well, I mean, you know, with limits, but I, we've never had to ban anything else. I don't feel like that's necessarily nice of me to ask him to just never talk about it again. And so I thought I should declare that his worldview is incorrect and that this is reality that I know something that even Nick Bostrom doesn't know. Bostrom. Yes, exactly. So my thought is that if, perhaps if it's ruled that it is not a simulation, then we can talk about it because it is truly just a philosophical conversation. And we all know, because you have said it's so, that this could never actually be the case. And then I feel like that would actually free me up. I have just a couple of quick questions before I get to my verdict, Morgan. One, have you seen or experienced evidence that you are in a simulation as opposed to what you might call reality?

No, but that just means it's a really good simulation. I agree. I agree with you, except here's a question within the simulation. What would be the purpose of having a Morgan in the simulation who openly questions the reality of the simulation? Oh, fidelity, you know, just makes it makes it seem more more believable. Right. and also the Wachowskis, are in this simulation, speculating that this might be a simulation, that that is somehow an aspect of fidelity about how real human minds often philosophically question the nature of their reality. Is the purpose of the simulation then to faithfully replicate human existence or harvest body electricity to run

space blenders? I think it would be, I think, I think the purpose would, I thought you thought this was interesting to talk about. It is. No, I think, I think the purpose would be to understand get the benefit of all the, of everything that the culture creates. Right. So the matrix sure technology if you were the evil demon what would you learn from making a simulation

of reality that was so faithful to reality that you would have to know everything about that reality in order to simulate it hmm hmm. Hmm. I'll see you in Florence with Jeff. Think it over. Last question. Cause I don't think we're going to get the definitive answer now. What would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor? Um, Oh, I would just like to, I would like to just keep talking about it. Although I don't, um, if it creates anxiety, I don't, I mean, we don't, you don't have to, but, um, I, it's, it's, it's a really, you know, the free will thing and the simulation thing, it's a good departure point to talk about things that will never, ever come up in a normal conversation. It's not something you would ever

talk about, you know, when you're talking about sports or a movie you just saw or work. And so it's, it's a, it's a good departure point. And it's fun to use that as a way to explore different ideas. So I would just like to keep talking about it in a way that does not create anxiety for Drea. You said that this all started Drea, that we moved from Free Will with Jeff and Catherine, which is a great title for an indie movie, to the universe is a simulation kind of when your kids were born and you stopped going on vacation. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Right? Yes. And how old are your kids? Four and two. Four. So four years, right? This ongoing conversation about life being a simulation has been happening. I would say so.

I would say so. I would say so. Morgan, are your own children real human beings? Oh, yeah, they're real. Interesting. They're real to me. Yeah. I think I've heard enough to go into my vat of goo and plug in to my mind palace, aka my simulated chambers. I'll be back in a moment with my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Drea, how are you feeling about your chances in this case? I feel pretty good. I feel like the judge is confident in his ability to be an all-knowing God and make this decision and, you know, kind of lay it down, maybe etch it into some stone so that we can move forward with this knowledge for the rest of our lives. I like that you have taken the opportunity for this pre-verdict interview to elevate the judge to a deity and elevate the three of us into Moses-like figures. This is pretty extraordinary. Coming down the mountain in just a minute, I guess. Yeah, exactly. Morgan, how are you feeling?

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I felt kind of confident coming in here. Not so much now. I mean, you'd already talked it through. now i mean you'd already talked it through i mean i guess the question morgan is are you even really feeling that way oh who knows who knows yeah well we'll see what simu judge john hodgman has to say when we come back in just a moment. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

Morgan, Drea, I am not your God, but I am your whatever. And as your whatever, I do control your thoughts and actions. They are in Orlando. And I am here to reveal, yes, it is all a simulation. Oh no. Well now wait a minute. Let's have some fun and think about whether that were true. Morgan is thinking about the simulation and the idea obviously of determinism and predestination and lack of free will is not one that was originally discussed in the context of a Cartesian evil being slash advanced robots in the Matrix who created a simulation, created a world for humans to exist in for some reason. Right. in the idea that there's an evil demon who is named God and what our relationship is with that patriarchal figure, that daddy figure in the sky who is making us do stuff. And also, by the way,

is it very common, as you pointed out, to many, many different faith pathways. I mean, obviously the, you know, I'm not an expert in Buddhismdhism either big vehicle or small vehicle but the idea that this life that we experience is an illusion and how that should impact the way we lead our lives is a big part of faith right this is a faith discussion because there is no God or whatever, except for me, the one and only God or whatever, who can tell you for certainty that this is a simulation or not. It is an unanswerable question. It is a ponderable. And since it is an unanswerable question, it is one that does produce anxiety. It produces more questions.

For Morgan, that is fun for dreya it is a nuisance at best and a existential crisis at worst particularly because the idea of this life being an illusion can be a relief in the sense that there is the material world that we experience has no intrinsic value that it in fact is an illusion that we can transcend right either through meditation or in other faith pathways could work and get to heaven or whatever right or this is an illusion in which we have no free will and it is punitive. You know, both of those are big ideas that I could understand why a Morgan and a Jeff might want to sit around and jaw about in Italy. However, I am strangely for a God or whatever, personally an agnostic. I believe in unanswerable questions, including, is there something beyond our

perception, including possibly an afterlife? That is where my faith system lies, that there are questions that we do not know the answers to. And that therefore, whether you define our existence here on earth as being an illusion made for us by a god or our far future transhuman evil genius descendants or machines or an ai or whatever it is that is necessarily beyond our perception and whether the truth quote unquote will ever be revealed to us itself is an unanswerable question until, you know, Lawrence Fishman comes and kidnaps us and offers us a metaphor for, uh, horrible behavior online. Very, very oblique reference there. So I take an existentialist position, which is we presume that the material world is real and that we

presume that our lives here come to an end and that the illusion that we experience was not created by one or many consciousnesses, but by the material world itself, organizing itself through the principle of evolution and the chaos of change. I'm right, I think. But the point point is whether it's a projection an act of god an act of ai or whatever this world that we experience it is indistinguishable from a simulation and therefore you conduct yourself as though your wife were a real person obviously you do morgan yes he does he. Obviously you do, Morgan. Yes, he does. He does. Obviously you do. The thing that makes me suspicious of the idea that we are living in a simulation is A, it seems like a real extra step to explain existence. Because as I alluded to early on, the people running the simulation themselves might be a

simulation who are being run by a different simulation. It just goes on and on and on and on and on. It's like a lot of extra work to justify a simple reality that I am a thing of bone and meat that's somehow got this kind of brain. And I somehow am able to use this kind of communication and to somehow have been able to hug and kiss people that I care about. And I trust those emotions are real and create other. It's just like this is just what's happening is happening. It's the Occam's razor. It's real. I think, therefore, I am.

Right. I lost my own train of thought. I talk, therefore, I get lost. That's my own personal mantra. The other reason that I am distrustful of the simulation argument is, boy, that would be a consolation, especially after this last year to imagine, as many people have, you know, in popular culture, that this is all part of a simulation. It's not the real thing that at some point, depending on your point of view in the world, you accidentally fell down the stairs and entered into a bizarre dream. It's natural that we question our sense of reality. We are tested every evening as we fall asleep,

if we're lucky enough to be able to sleep. Reality can be very, very easily simulated, such that you don't even realize that it's happening. By one brain, not a million robots, one brain. This is natural. Just as the world is a natural process, a material process, a real process, not a highly sophisticated hologram, I also think that it is absolutely natural to think about this stuff and think about its consequences. So, Drea, the world is real. You're right.

I'm just telling you. I knew it. But I'm not ruling in your favor. I'm sorry. Okay. Thank you. Morgan is using a part of his brain that was, you can't say designed by evolution because evolution is not designed. It is a product of evolution, of self-referentiality and self and provocative questioning of reality. This is totally natural to our species.

Okay. It's part of our imagination and it's part of why we are in some ways the most constructive and equally the most destructive species on earth. That makes sense. You married a real human is what I'm telling you he's not a hologram I'm glad you can extend him the courtesy of believing in his whole humantum and I hope that he

offers you the same courtesy he does Morgan it's fine for you to talk about these things with your friend Jeff you should try to read the room Morgan, it's fine for you to talk about these things with your friend Jeff. You should try to read the room and not get into it with Drea because she doesn't care. She's not as interested as you are. If you wanted to, you could try to be more interesting about it.

I mean, that's the only other thing I can say. First of all, I mean, you're talking to your god or whatever. For a long time, I had accidentally turned my camera off and you were just talking to an empty void. You know, I might as well have been a masked oracle in Delphi. Very, very, it's intimidating to come onto a podcast and put your inner lives up for my judgment. And I appreciate that. So are you really going to get into it with me the way you can get into it with Jeff at midnight in Florence? No.

I bet you and Jeff have some great conversations. But if I'm out here, if I'm doing some Wikipedia research, looking at some Nick Bostrom, you know, let's get into it. When I, you know what I mean? Like, don't be like, I just like thinking about it. Tell me what the consequences are, what the ramifications might be, why you think it's happening. Why would it even exist in the first place get into it with me man let's grok each other we'll do it another time when we can see each other in person you will see that your

god or whatever is not a figment of some computer program no i am a flesh and blood human being at max fun con should it happen again and you attend let's you and i really dig into whether this is a simulation or not and what it means. Because I think that if you're able to articulate those things in a little bit more of a provocative and interesting way and have some arguments, maybe Dre would be interested in hearing more about it, you know, instead of just like, you're not real. None of this is real. Where's the milk? This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules.

That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Morgan, how do you feel? I guess relieved. I do wish I was able to get into it a little bit more, but yeah, no, I feel good. Admit it, Morgan. You always feel like you wish you could get into it a little bit more. It's my mantra. You're getting into it is never satiated.

Drea, how are you feeling? I feel good. I feel good. I do. You know, Morgan, his discussion about it is always interesting. I have to say, I would say that it's probably sometimes tempered by the fact that I have had a glass of wine. And so I would say that Jeff would also be a good person to give his opinion on whether or not it's interesting. And y'all always do have long conversations about it. So I will make an effort to get educated on it as well. Drea Morgan, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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But first, our thanks to Sean Flaherty for naming this week's episode, May It Please Descartes. If you would like to name a future episode of our program, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. That's where we ask for your submissions. You can also follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets. Hashtag JJHO. I like checking out those tweets. And check out the Maximum Fun subreddit at MaximumFun.reddit.com to discuss this episode, one of the most pleasant places on Reddit, the Maximum Fun subreddit. You can go and chat in a friendly way with your fellow Judge John Hodgman listeners. We're also on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman, where you can check out the evidence from Judge John Hodgman cases and related matters. That might be our most popular venue for social media. Those

things always generate a lot of cool chat. Our producer, the ever-capable Ms. Jennifer Marmer. Now let's get to Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment. Now let's get to Swift Justice where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment. Alex says, I don't like the bathroom mats I purchased, but they've been in my bathroom for a week. Is it too gross to return them? Yes, I would say. Yes. Yes, yes, it is. If you don't like them because you took them out of the bag and you saw them and you're like, oh, this is not what I wanted, then you could probably return them if there's online returns.

But if they've been in your bathroom for the week, I can only presume that you've decided you don't like the way they feel on your wet bare feet. Yeah, if they're not defective. I mean, if they're defective. Yeah, if they've got big holes in them or portals to other universes. Yes. But if you've just been using these bath mats for a week, you can't return them. I guess you could call the company and see, depending on what they're made out of, if there's some sort of recycling opportunity that you should take advantage of.

But, you know, if it's just a regular towel, don't return them. Cut them up and use them as rags. Monster costume. Yeah, monster costume. And the monster is named Rags. That's about it for this week's episode. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO or email Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. No case is too small.

We love to hear your cases. We love them. We love them. We love them. We love them. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. Paul, we love to hear your cases. We love them. We love them. We love them. We love them. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.