Judge John Hodgman - Meld in Contempt

Episode Date: January 4, 2023

Stacey brings the case against her friend, Ellen. Stacey says that when they play canasta, Ellen changes the rules mid-game. Ellen says that this isn’t true. She’s simply reporting what the rules have always been. Who’s right? Who’s wrong?Thank you to Twitter User @IronyMaiden for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun Subreddit at maximumfun.reddit.com!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, meld in contempt. Stacey brings the case against her friend, Ellen. Stacey says that when they play cards, Ellen changes the rules mid-game. Ellen says this isn't true. She's simply reporting what the rules have always been. Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. The girl in the lobby of the Xanadu was waiting for one person and hoping to see another. It was Saturday morning on the second day of the tournament. The girl's name was Victoria Summers.

She had lived for 29 years and had not enjoyed any of them very much. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Stacey, Ellen, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God or whatever? I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he broke a bridge contract? I don't even know what bridge is.

Yeah. Maybe. That's why we're here, Ellen. Ellen's already changing the rules. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed Ellen, I'm already holding you in contempt, by the way In pre-contempt, double secret contempt probation For some of the spicy comments that I've already heard

Even from before we recorded But you may redeem yourself now First of all, you may be seated Second of all, for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors Can either you, Stacey, or you, Alan, name a piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom? I didn't even reference it. This is a direct quotation from something. Stacey, why don't you go first?

I don't know. You got to guess. The movie Xanadu starring Olivia Newton-John. Maybe the book version. Stacey? I love that guess. I love that guess so much. Jesse, when you ever see Xanadu starring Olivia Newton-John? That's a roller skating musical. Yeah. And Gene Kelly, Gene Kelly's last movie is in a roller disco musical called Xanadu. Finally crossed that off the bucket list. I'm getting over a little illness, so I can't sing very well. Not that I ever sang terrifically

anyway, but it went so awesome like this. Xanadu, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Xanadu, now we are here in Xanadu. Well, I can't, can't hit the notes anymore. Don't, I'm not even going to try. No, stop. Xanadu. Ellen, you got something as good as Xanadu? Like that Shangri-La movie. Shangri-La movie?

One of the many, many Shangri-La movies? Sure. You ever see, Ellen, you ever see the movie The Warriors? Yes. Right. So you remember who plays Swan in The Warriors, right? No. What? Michael Beck. You remember the Michael Beck? Oh, you remember who plays uh swan and the warriors right no what michael beck you remember the michael beck oh you remember that okay now you remember all right so for all of the marbles as they say in the card game hand and foot michael beck played swan and the warriors

played the male lead in xanadu. And then starred in what other movie? And then, I don't know if he really did anything after that. It's a third movie. Transformers. You know what? I love that guess, Ellen. You're off double secret probation. It absolutely is not Transformers.

But that's a pretty good guess. Given that the movie I'm thinking of is the Barry Bostwick action vehicle Megaforce. Stacey, wow. That was a big sigh of frustration. Stacey, were you going

to guess Megaforce? Yeah. That was my second guess. Was it really? No. No. But we're, I feel like we're

of the same age or generation at least, Stacey, right? Yeah. If you're guessing Xanadu, and Ellen, you and me too, right? We're all in the same world. You don't, you remember Megaforce where Barry Bostwick wore a tight spandex suit and a blue headband and was the leader of an elite group of happy-go-lucky mercenaries in the desert who flew around on motorcycles?

Megaforce? Deeds not words? Featuring Gene Kelly in his next to last role. That's right, featuring Gene Kelly. Well, they used outtake footage from Xanadu to create a new role in Megaforce. Anyway, you're all wrong. I mean, all guesses are wrong. The answer, of course, was a page that I chose at random from a novel called Tickets to the Devil. I'm showing it to you now on teleconferencing. Tickets to the Devil by Richard Powell was a novel published in 1968, or at least this edition was. And it's a romantic soap opera surrounding a bridge tournament. Tickets to the Devil.

And this was a gift to me, or at least what has now turned out to be an extremely long-term loan, from Adam Woldowski, who was a very prominent championship bridge player that I profiled back in 2004. Really wonderfully interesting dude who, as a Ayn Rand libertarian, had a lot of ideas that we had debates over, but overall was a very nice guy and chose to play a game, Bridge, in which you are reliant entirely upon another person, which seemed like the most anti-Ayn Randian thing you could do. You were entirely reliant upon the skills of another person.

He didn't see it that way. He just thought it was a fun game. Anyway, the point is, this is about a card game. And the card game, hand and foot, based on what limited, very limited research I was able to do, and which you're going to help fill me in on, is an offshoot of Canasta,

which was a Uruguayan card game, which was developed as a faster form of bridge. Does any of this comport with your historical knowledge, Stacey or Ellen, yes or no? Well, Hand and Feet was created in the Northeast in the 1950s. So it's an American version of Canasta. But Canasta was created in Uruguay. And my understanding was that it was like, bridge takes too long. Let's play Canasta instead.

I guess it's faster play. And it swept through South America. Che Guevara was a huge Canasta player. Mentions it in Motorcycle Diaries. Became a huge hit in the United States in the 1950s because everyone was Che crazy. I suppose that must have been it. And now has dropped off to such the point

that there is a phrase findable on the internet and used at least at some point, dead as canasta. But you play hand and feet or hand and foot? Is that, which is it? Hands and feet. Hands and feet, says Ellen. And which of you seeks justice before my court? I do.

Stacey, what is the nature of the dispute? Ellen and I have been best friends for about 30 years. And she taught me Canasta 20 years ago. And we play it with both our families. So her three kids, my two kids, there's a whole extended family that always plays this game. It's the holidays right now. So for sure, we'll be playing it. And every time we play the game, because there's usually, I live on the West Coast, she lives on the East Coast. There's a span of time, maybe six months or a year, the rules are completely different. And that doesn't bother me as much as the gaslighting. Every time you play this game, Ellen lies a little, right?

That's a song that I made up. Yeah. She is the sweetest, nicest person, best friend you could ever have, besides her mother. But both of them turn into monsters when they play cards. Ellen, this is not unheard of that people turn into monsters when they play cards. Ellen, this is not unheard of that people turn into monsters when they play cards. And there are no more acrimonious divorces than bridge partnership divorces. That's my favorite Dungeons and Dragons mechanic, where somebody turns into a monster because they're playing cards.

Usually NPCs. So describe what you each mean to each other, your colleagues, your acquaintances, arch rivals. What is your relationship? Stacey is more fun than a barrel of monkeys. And we have just gone through so much together with our kids as babies and our careers and our family, marriage, everything. And we just have the best time together. She makes me laugh nonstop. Stacey, you disagree? I don't think I would be here if it wasn't for Ellen.

I just went through so much over the past few years. And even before that, she's just always been my rock. And I had a ridiculous childhood. And this is my family now. I mean, you can't choose your family but you can and i chose ellen and her family and our kids act like cousins and i'm the luckiest woman in the world to have ellen and the marxism my family okay i going to put down fond acquaintances then, because that sounds pretty strong. I don't know.

Work friends. Oh, your best friends. Best friends. That's wonderful. Ellen, can you explain to the audience, first of all, what is Canasta? Canasta, if you can play with two people, three people, or four people. If you can play with two people, three people, or four people. And the number of cards you're dealt depend on how many people are playing.

And you always have an extra deck. So if you have two people, you have three decks. You have three people, you have four. You have four people, you have five decks. So a deck per person plus one. Yes. And the goal of the game is to get a clean canasta, which would be seven of the same card, and then two dirty canastas, which are seven cards that are a mix of the card you started and up to three wild cards.

So unlike bridge, which where you need four people, you can play with just two people or three or four and you're making your melds. And this is a lot of fun. How long does it take to play a round of Canasta? Would you say? Well, there are four rounds in a game, like a full game and it could take you an hour, hour and a half to play all four rounds in a game, like a full game. And it could take you an hour, hour and a half to play all four rounds. Okay. So an hour and a half for a whole game. And you taught this to Stacy 20 years ago is what she contends. Yeah. Okay. So what was going on in your lives then? You now live in different places, right? I was living on Martha's Vineyard,

and I was moving to Portland, Oregon. And she and her husband and her kids were at this house we were renting. And that was the first time I learned how to play hands and feet. It was about two weeks before we were getting ready to leave. And what were you doing on Martha's Vineyard? I lived there for 10 years. What were you doing living? Well, I mean, not a lot of people live there year round. At first, I was doing website design for companies that weren't on Martha's Vineyard. Sure.

So it was, you know, had a studio and then I would just travel with the kids. Later, I opened a store. Wonderful. Clam store. Yeah. Was it a clam store?, I opened a store. Wonderful. Clam store? Yeah, was it a clam store? Yes, it was a clam store. Clam store. Put in the record, clam store.

So noted. Okay, so Ellen and her family are visiting you in Martha's Vineyard, and she says, I've got this great game. And was that canasta or was that hands and feet? Hands and feet. Hands and feet is a variation of Canasta. And Ellen, since you're the expert, how would you explain hands and feet to the non-hands and feet expert? A lot of babies, they haven't even discovered their hands and feet.

So talk to me like I'm a dumb baby. So you're going to divide up. You have a deck that you need to create two piles of cards. One set you're going to hold on to, that's your hand. And the other set you're going to pass to the person on your left, and that's their foot. They're doing the same thing, dividing up their deck in two and keeping the deck on the right as their hand and passing you the deck on the left to you. And that's your foot. And you first start playing with your hand and you have to get rid of all your cards in your hand with canasses and things like that before you can pick up your foot. You get into your foot, you play all of your cards, and whoever goes out first, the other

player has to, you know, any cards in their hand that they're holding are against them. And so that's how you beat them. Now, Stacey, you disagreed vehemently with the rules, as Ellen stated. I can't believe she's telling the whole world these completely inaccurate rules. What's inaccurate about what Ellen just said? It's 11 cards. It's always been 11 cards. For two people, it's more.

I stayed up till 2.30 in the morning last night researching all different people's versions of hands and feet. And the bicycle website, the pageant website with Steve Simpson, Brian Bruletz, Roger Demment, GameRules.com, Randy Rash, all 11 cards. Steve Simpson and Randy Rash? Yeah, both of them. Wow. And Demet? Yeah. All the card nerds seem to agree. 11 cards, Ellen. You know what? My 90-year-old mother taught me how to play Canasta and how to play hands and feet.

I've been playing Canasta since I was 12 years old. That's 50 years. These are the rules my mother taught me. That's the crux. I think I'll find the crux. Thank you, Stacey, very much. Stacey, shut your pie hole, please. What I'm hearing so far is this. First of all, the variation of hands and feet, the way it is described by Ellen to me, is what we used to call in my weekly poker game that lasted for years and years and years and years among me and some of my friends until we all got tired, was the equivalent of pass the trash. got tired, was the equivalent of pass the trash. Where you are building your hand in part, there's a round of passing cards to your left to get rid of cards in your hand that you don't want. Meanwhile, you're collecting cards from your right,

the other person's trash, that they don't want. And hopefully you're getting a combination of stuff that you can then use to make a poker hand. In Canasta, it's different. Obviously, you're trying to make these melds and go out, which is to say, use your cards before and go out and make these melds before other people can. So that sounds fun and devious

and seems like a great way to mess with your friends. The dispute that you're talking, do you have a dispute with that aspect of Ellen's rules, Stacey? Well, now I do. I was just going to ask her to stop gaslighting me, but these rules are like completely wrong. So in all of your research, just on this one aspect, we're talking about bicycle. We're talking about, what's his name? Rash. We're talking about bicycle. We're talking about, what's his name? Rash. We're talking about, who's the other card nerds?

We're talking about Jim Rash. Jim Rash. Randy Rash. Randy Rash. We're talking about Jim Rash. We're talking about Nat Faxon. We're talking, right? All of the card experts. The Washington Nationals. We're talking about, yeah, the Nats. They're all saying, is passing the trash not part

of hands and feet? Yes or no, Stacey? No, it's not passing the trash. It's how many cards we deal. But I'm just asking you, is this aspect of play in hands and feet consistent with what you looked up online? Yes. In fact, I couldn't find evidence at all of Ellen's new rule about how many cards are dealt. And she won't even acknowledge that it's a new rule. Ellen, do you even have a mother? Yeah, I just celebrated my mother's 90th birthday on December 2nd. Happy birthday. Thank you for giving her the gift of not bothering her to be on a podcast.

I will tell you this. Please. Stacey would not be messing with my mother if she was on this podcast. My mother has been playing it for probably 60 years. I hear she learned it from Che Guevara himself. She rode around on a motorcycle all around Bolivia. Ellen, what would happen if Stacy messed with your mother? My mother would not, she would just stick to her guns with what the rules are that she played.

I guess that's the role model for me. I guess that's the role model for me. And she would just tell Stacy she's mixed up and confused and she's sorry. So this is evidence of trickle down gaslighting from a 90-year-old woman. My mother doesn't gaslight. If she doesn't agree with what you're saying, she'll usually just not say anything. She's from that kind of Southern Baptist, be nice and polite, don't lie. And if you don't like what somebody's saying, keep your mouth shut. Except when she's playing canasta. Then she wants to skunk you. when she's playing canasta then she wants to skunk you but i have evidence especially about this 11 cards that proves that you're lying i'm not all right i want to hear the i want to hear

the order in this court please i want to hear the evidence thank you for introducing the trickle down gaslight theory the dispute, so that humans can understand, is around the question of 11 cards. Ellen, you maintain what? That you pass 11 cards to your opponent to your left? So if you're playing with two people, you have 15 cards in each pile. If you're playing with three people, you have 13 cards in each pile. And if you're playing with four, you get 11 in each pile. And you maintain that this is what you taught to Stacey 20 years ago, correct?

Correct. Stacey just opened her mouth in complete astonishment and disbelief. The international symbol for a gog. She is a gog. Stacey, is your dispute that Ellen is playing it wrong or that Ellen changed the rules? Ellen is changing that rule. There are many other examples and she refuses to acknowledge that she's changing the rules. What other rules has she changed? How many cleans, how many dirties,

whether we can discard wild cards, the value of a clean, the value of a dirty. Passing to the left is a whole new thing we used to do across the table to the right. And the value of red threes, she is completely wrong about that as it stands today. You know what? I acknowledge when I taught her, I didn't remember the exact value of like a clean and a dirty. And I have consistently played when I play with her. We use the count that I taught her when I play with my mom, I use the count that my mom uses. I think she's mixed up about the passing because what we used to do at the beginning,

when you're shuffling all the decks, you want to make sure they're really shuffled and mixed up. So you would shuffle and shuffle and shuffle. And then you would pass to if there's say three or four people, you would pass half your deck and you would take big, you'd get half and you would shuffle, shuffle, shuffle. And then you might pass crisscross and you would shuffle, shuffle, shuffle. And that's how we used to play. And that was took too much time, and then we just cut back. I think she's confusing that part with being able to pass the foot any which way you want, which is not how you play.

Ellen, Stacey, is there some resource you could acquire if you wanted to play these games according to Hoyle? So last night, up till two-third in the morning, I decided to actually create a chart of all these different disputes and see what every different website said. And that's the nature of this game is that there's about 100,000 different versions of it. But we're playing the version created by a 90-year-old woman from the last time she played. This is a version of the game from before the Second World War. This is a version of the game that was created during the Depression when they couldn't afford 15 cars. No, the newest version is from October 13th because Ellen came to visit and she went down

to her mom's and then she got COVID and she was sick for 12 days where she played hands and feet with her mom and her sister. And then she comes back up to my house. We play hands and feet for two days. And suddenly there's all these new rules. And then when I look at her, she looks at me like, yeah, what? It's like she came back from camp and she suddenly smokes. And we're like, yeah, we've been doing that all the time.

You're saying Ellen went down and between her mom and her sister, they established some new COVID rules. Ellen, tell me about your Canadian boyfriend. His name was COVID. He was very sexy. He was terrible in bed? I could not get rid of him. And I shared him with my mother and my sister. Wow.

I shared him with my mother and my sister. Wow. Here I am about to say, well, Jesse's just making a pretty routine joke about people having fake boyfriends at camp. But before I can go get a word out, you picked up the prompt and you ran with it all the way to Second City. That was incredible. Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor. We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman.

I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week

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I don't. I had never played hands and feet before, but it reminds me a lot of a game that I know. Ellen, have you ever played the game Tegwar? No. T-E-G-W-A-R. Have you, Stacey, ever played Tegwar? Mm-mm. Judge Hodgman have you ever played the game Tegwar? No. T-E-G-W-A-R. Have you, Stacey, ever played Tegwar? Mm-mm. Judge Hodgman, you ever played that?

I don't know what you're talking about. And I urge counsel to move to what's relevant in this comment, please. I learned this game from the novel Bang the Drum Slowly. Basically, what you do is you get some of your buddies from the baseball team, you set up in the lobby of the hotel, and when people recognize you playing cards there in the lobby of the hotel, you invite them to play with you. In fact, you guys should all come play with me later. And when somebody sits down, you put in the ante and then you play the game. What's really important here is that you get the person who sat down with you to continue betting. It's best if they're embarrassed that they don't know the rules of the game. And whatever rules you need to make up, you just go ahead and make those up until the person who sat down is out of money. That's what Ellen does. Stands for the excellent game without any rules. I do know that game.

The excellent game without any rules. I do know that game. The excellent game without any rules. Tag war. Anyway, Stacey, you're saying that this is a swindle of some kind, which suggests motive. If Ellen is changing the rules as you claim, and I don't want to get tied up in the esoterica of the rules that she's changing because it's just going to make me more confused than I already am. What is her motive for doing this i think just like her mother who is like out of central casting for a sweet little old lady she just turns into like

jekyll and hyde it's just i don't know but you're saying you're okay you're saying she's just a pure the the very nice collected woman that I see sitting next to you. Yeah, the greatest woman on earth. And Ellen, that's your husband behind you who's manning the audio operation? Yes. The stevedore or lighthouse keeper that you're married to behind you? Yes. Yeah, wearing a watch cap and some fingerless gloves as he cranks the wax cylinder recording that this is going to,

that this, that this nice old couple just are agents of chaos, that Ellen is just some sort of Loki-like trickster who's doing it for fun. Do you think she wants to win? Do you think she wants, she enjoys playing mind games with you? What do you think is going on here, Stacey? Because without a motive, I don't know that there's a crime. do you think is going on here, Stacey? Because without a motive, I don't know that there's a crime. I polled the whole family to try to figure this out. I called her daughter in London and her other daughter. That's a long distance call. They were like, oh, you think she's competitive? You play with my grandma. Yeah, the two of them are, it's genetic. She doesn't want to lose.

Yeah. I mean, my mom is the sweetest grandmother ever. But the minute my kids learned how to play cards with grandma, she would just, and again, the word skunk them. She just delights in beating everybody. And I guess I'm like that, too. You like skunking Stacy? Yeah.

Who doesn't? It's fun. And you do try to not do it all the time because it's demoralizing. And I get skunked. I get skunked. So once in a while, you stacy win you know what i don't let yeah stacy wins on her own ability and sometimes i'll just stay in the game longer so that i don't catch her with... So you patronize me? No, I'm being kind.

Oh my God. Because I'm... It's no fun to get skunked every round. Can I just say you kind of turn into a sociopath when we talk about cards. Well...

She transforms into a monster, a bug bear. Let the record show that on the teleconference, not only did, not only did Ellen say the, the word whelp, but made a look on her face was like, well,

who wants to lose? Who wants to lose? Are you saying that you... The point of the game is losing. You don't, Ellen, you don't throw games to let Stacy win. No, no. But you just give somebody maybe one or two extra turns to try to get into their foot.

A little bit of rope-a-dope. Right, you get into their foot, but you're also getting into their head. Because if you skunk them too fast, maybe they'll stop playing with you and you won't get that sweet skunking that you crave so bad. Stacey, again, is a gog. Stacey, you've been a gog a lot. I just, this is actually making me even more confused and like freaked out about this hands and feet.

And it's our favorite game. And everybody feels this way in the family. What does everyone feel? That Ellen makes up and changes rules in order to win and then acts as though those rules always existed. And that you're bananas for even never thinking that they were otherwise. Everyone in the family agrees with you. Yeah. Well, my kids would never say anything against Ellen.

So I called her kids because they would. And my kids will just always defer to her because they love her so much and they would never want to upset her. One could think it could be the same. My kids would do the same for you. Oh, no. No, no, no. One of them was like,

you got to shut that down. You're saying that one of Ellen's own children said, you got to shut that down? Yeah, because I sent a Google poll to everybody about all the different rules. Nobody agreed on anything because we're all been gaslighted. And Sienna called me and she's like, what's this about? And I said, I'm going to sue your mom. And she said, why? And I said, because she's always changing the rules. And Sienna goes, oh, yeah, you got to shut that down. And Teal's husband won't even play with them anymore because they are like sweet little grandmas. And he goes, oh, they're really sweet until you stop playing hands and feet with them.

And then he won't play with them at all anymore. No, you don't. That's not the reason he won't play with us is he finally skunked my mother and me and he wanted to go out on a high. No, no. What was the accent you were just doing english oh so teal is ellen's daughter who's married to a british person got it ellen there's a difference between playing aggressively and bending the rules or breaking them. Do you contend that in the years of playing with Stacey, you have never fudged the rules ever, not once? I would admit that I have never intentionally fudged the rules so that I could win. I think what's happened is I have gotten mixed up on the rules.

And then I go and I visit my mom and she just plays it every day. So she's got the rules. And then I'll have a refresher course and I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah. And then unfortunately, I go and play with Stacy and I tell her the latest, you know, little thing. And it really upsets her. I have proof that although what she's saying is true, the point of contention about how many cards are dealt, that did not come from her mother. All right. That did not come from her mother. All right. I was willing to accept that you felt frustrated that Ellen had access to this weird Oracle of Canasta who was constantly shifting her prophecies over there.

And where does your mom live, Ellen? Halsey, Oregon. Halsey, Oregon. The Oracle of Halsey. But you're saying you have proof that at least one rule change does not originate with grandma. What is your statement and what is your proof, Stacey? Well, she just tried to pull this like, oh, maybe I get mixed up. And so I called her daughter in London and I was like, I'm suing your mom. And she said, Teal said, oh, you know, mom, she's just a dingbat. She doesn't even know she's

changing the rules. And I'm like, Teal, your mother is the most competent person I've ever met in my entire life. She's not a dingbat. She knows that she's doing it. And then I said, Teal, this time she changed the rules to 15, 14 cards. And Teal goes, oh yeah, I told her that. But did Teal tell her that in good faith or bad faith? Teal told Ellen that there were these different number of cards based on how many people were playing. And she's the one who told Ellen that rule. And I found no evidence of that rule last night. So it wasn't from grandma. And it was only two years old. It was a rule change from two years ago. So this isn't one of those leaky pipes. So you're contending that Ellen is acting the

dingbat as a cover for a very insidious, long-term, multi-decade cheating scheme. She's pretending she doesn't remember. She's getting influenced by her mom and her daughter. But really, and she's just like, oh, you know me. Just a dingbat playing canasta. Which are the dirties again? But in fact, she's a sharp. She's a canasta sharp. Yes or no. Is that your accusation, Stacey? That is exactly my accusation.

Is Ellen Tegwaring you? Yes. Ellen? I just want to say there's no money involved in this. Okay. Humility and confidence is more valuable than money. Yes, it's emotions. How do you feel, Stacey, when you get skunked? You know, Ellen beats me in a lot of games. That's fine. She's wicked smart. But it's the changing the rules part and pretending that she doesn't know that she changed the rules part. That's at some point I'm like the last time it happened. She's like, are you mad at me?

Are you really mad at me? And I was like, no, I'm not mad at you. But I really was. And I just feel like at some point I am going to burst into tears and run up into my room. Ellen, are you enjoying watching your friend crumble in front of you? No, I don't like this at all. Okay. I don't like this.

And I just feel like I don't know what to do because, you know, we don't see each other for a long time. you don't see each other for a long time. There could be slight nuances that come into how you play and it comes up. And then, I mean, it may, I will tell you that last time when I, when she's like, you change the rules every time. It's not how you taught me. I, She was getting upset. I got mad. And so I did what I do. I just went out immediately and skunked her.

And I don't want to skunk somebody because I'm mad. I don't care about losing. You don't want to skunk out of madness? Yeah, you skunk from a purity of heart, of intention. I don't care. She beat me in, what was it, rummy thing last night. I don't care if she wins. She went to college.

The most important thing is that she doesn't pretend that, oh, this isn't a new rule. Like, that is saying to me that I'm crazy. You know, I feel like I'm crazy. Well, we did a Google poll and I also found these notes from my son when he was teaching his girlfriend how to play canasta. And it's clear that like everybody in the families is kind of like, is it one or two, you know, cleans and dirties to get out or how many cards you deal and what the value of things are.

And I did a lot of research last night. And actually, the way we all agree, even things that we agree on aren't accurate. Are not accurate. But I just think because there's so many different versions of hands and feet in the United States, it's only been around for 50 years, that we're just playing Beulah's version of hands and feet. And Beulah's a 90-year-old woman who's also playing hands and feet with other 90-year-old women.

And you keep coming back with these bizarre new rules. But we could laugh about it. You could be like, oh, now my mom's playing this way. But you act like, no, this is the way it's always been. And that's the part that really is hurting me. Okay. I hear you, Stacey. Buell is a gaslighter from the age of gaslight. Yeah. If you only knew. Oh, I saw that the temperature just dropped 35 degrees in that lighthouse that your husband is keeping over there where... I mean, my mom is like the sweetest, you know, little Christian of spirit until it's canasta.

So if you know that your mother's that way, can't you see that maybe like you get a little Jekyll and Hyde when we play? Yeah, I know I do. But this is our favorite game. Like all our families play it together. And if you keep doing this, no one's going to want to play. Yeah. Clearly there's been so much conflict around this game. It's felt so keenly by Stacey and sort of icily ignored by Ellen all these years. Why is this your favorite game? Why hasn't this come up?

Why haven't you gotten rid of this game before? Why don't you throw it in the fire and have a new year? It's really fun. Okay. Stacey, why do you think you're losing? I'd say I'm losing 50% because I'm not the competitor that Ellen is at cards. And the other 50% is probably me just stewing in my head about that last rule change. So yeah, it is gaslighting. I'm like, I got other half of my brain is fuming. Are you upset because you're losing

or are you upset because you don't recognize your friend? Oh, the latter. For sure. I don't care about the losing. And actually, I do win. I do win. Even when all the rules have changed? Well, like last time we played, it's four rounds. So I won the first round because she didn't have time to change the rules during the game yet. Look, you got to strike fast like a cobra. I want to understand if I said a rule is that you pass the foot to the left instead of willy-nilly in which way you want.

How would that cause a person to lose the game? Because you still just get whatever cards somebody else is getting rid of. But it's not just the passing to the left. There's at least six rules that are consistently inconsistent. Okay. Run them down. How many cards are dealt, whether you pass the foot to the left, whether you can discard wild cards, and the usage of the top seven cards. So sometimes like in Rummy or Gin,

you can grab from the discard pile and you have to grab seven cards. And Ellen made up this rule last time we played that if you went for the discard pile and there wasn't actually seven cards there, then you would lose your turn. I've never seen evidence of that. And then what's always ambiguous is how many Canastas you need to go out, how many points you need to go down for each round, and then the value of the Canastas. Ellen, this is not NOM. This is Canasta. There are rules. You know what? You're absolutely right. And we've been playing a long time. And the first round, you have to have 60 points to go down. The second round, you have to have 90 points. The third round, you have to have 120. And the fourth, you have to have 150. I can see Ellen transforming into a monster right before my eyes, Judge Hodgman.

Ellen, how important to you is it that you're using the rules that your mom taught you? Tell me about that. I'm not a rule breaker by nature. Doesn't mean I don't. I want to do things properly and right and to the best of my ability. Jackson and Jim Rash's big book of card games and looked up hands and feet and said, okay, these are the rules. Why would that not be proper? There are any number of third party collections of rules that you could go to with Stacy and establish the new rules for you that are not Beulah's rules, how would you feel about that? Would that feel inappropriate to you? No, I would do that to just

resolve this so it doesn't keep coming up and ruin the game for us. I will still play the rules when I play with my mom because that's how she plays. Good luck with that. Now, I noticed that you mentioned you live in different parts of the country. Ellen, you're in New York. Correct. And Stacey, you're in Oregon, correct? But you're now in the same room together. What brings you together in the lighthouse with Willem Dafoe back there? This Grimshaw mermaid. You guys, he can't hear you. That's fine.

That makes it even better. What brings the two of you together? Two things. Christmas. And Stacy hasn't met my granddaughter yet, little Luna, who's coming for Christmas. Because of COVID, I couldn't meet the baby for the past 18 months. And I feel like I'm going to be meeting my surrogate granddaughter. I'm so excited.

So this is the first time you get little Luna's going to get to see her auntie Stacy gets skunked. That's wonderful. We're playing by Luna's rules now. I know that it is inappropriate for the court to ask a spouse to testify against their own spouse. He doesn't play. But I just need you, Alan, to turn.

What is your husband's name? Jason. Turn to Jason and just say, do I ever change the rules of Canasta and pretend they were always the same? Yes or no? And tell me what his reply is. Okay.

I have to ask you. So do I ever change the rules of Canasta and say that's how it's always been? John, first let me say I love my wife beyond belief. She's an amazing woman. But the answer is yes, she does. Wow. Wow. Wow.

Straight from Willem Dafoe's mouth to our ears. From the man who has never played Canasta with me. Ah. He's heard all of us complain about it. Wow. It's not just me. I'm the only one who has the nerve just to do this. To do this.

Stacey, your idea of ruling is to write down what you think are the rules and don't change anything without voting on it. We can vote on it. We could write the rules down and we're going to have a lot of the family here in a couple of days and we can all just agree. It would also be nice if Ella admitted that she's changing the rules. That's the part that hurts me the most. You guys, I'm sorry. I don't, I honestly do not realize that I am changing the rules. I know a few times I had got them wrong when I first taught them. But that's like when people file their taxes and they say,

oh, I didn't know that wasn't allowed. Yeah. Well, that happens. Why do you think I got my yacht confiscated? Ellen, your ideal ruling is to play cards and have fun. Maybe go through the rules one more time and decide what they want to do, what you want to do in the future. Yeah. I would like Stacey and I to agree on a set of rules. We'll write them up. We'll take a picture and put it in our cell phones. And it's always there. It's the Bible. Before I go away into my own haunted lighthouse to make my decision, there's one question that I didn't get a chance to ask. How did you both meet? I worked for the lumberjack, her husband.

And then he came, this was like 30 years ago. And then he came over to my house. We were doing some project together and he had a little baby on his hip and this little four-year-old girl. And little four-year-old girl hopped on my lap and I taught her Photoshop for an hour. And then I said, hey, I want to babysit your kids. And after that, they made another child. I made two children and we just became this giant family.

Her daughter and my youngest daughter have the same name. They're both Pipers. Wow. Seven Lords of Leaping. That's incredible. Yeah. Well, I couldn't think of another name I liked, and I just gave up and called her. And I was like, can I name my child Piper as well? And she was like, oh, yeah, sure. She is the nicest person on earth when she's not playing cards.

Stacey, are you jealous of Ellen's best friend at camp, Beulah? You know, I was a little jealous because she was supposed to spend a week with me, a week with her mom and sister, and then a week with me because I live by her family and she lives by my family out here in New York. And she had 12 days of COVID. And then I only got two days. And then yeah, showed up with all these new rules. And for the first time in my life, I was jealous of her sister. And I was a little peyote at her mom. And yeah. Great. That's everything that I need to hear. I'm going to go into my own haunted lighthouse.

I shall go atop to polish the fresnel lens of my verdict. I'll be back in a moment with my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Ellen, spill the beans. How do you feel about your chances in this case? I don't think they're very good. I don't think they're very good. My husband, my kids. The only person who would support me would be my mother. Beulah, the original gaslighter.

Stacey, you are the only person on the planet who would use that word with my mother. I think I have a bigger problem with that than anything. Oh, God. Well, I haven't played with your mother. You haven't? No, never. And Tom was like,

don't play with them. I know you're not going to want to play the game ever again. I think we know what needs to happen. You need to get skunked, Stacy. I might be the one person who could stand up to Beulah. I think we know what needs to happen. You need to get skunked, Stacey. I might be the one person who could stand up to Beulah.

I think Stacey could skunk Beulah. Well, I probably couldn't skunk her, but I could probably call her on her BS, like the stuff that Ellen does. Beulah, you're listening right now. You know you are. Prepare to get skunked. And you know what, Stacey? If it looks like you're not skunking Beulah, just go ahead and change the rules a little. She deserves a good skunking 90 years on this earth without getting skunked. Stacey, how do you feel about your chances?

I feel validated because even her husband, who doesn't even play the game, knows that she changes the rules. And, you know, I did all my research. I researched the internet. I researched our own families. So, yeah, at least, you know, she's been trying to make me think I'm crazy, and I know I'm not crazy. We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney.

I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. We are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. We're headed out on tour, John.

Our first tour in years. I don't know, 27 years. I lost count at some point. Certainly first since the very beginning of 2020. We are headed up and down the west coast of the great United States with one detour into the great Rocky Mountains. We will be in Seattle, Portland, Denver, San Francisco, and Los Angeles, as well as Port Townsend, Washington, John. But that show already sold out. Mmm, bad news.

Sold out. Yeah, we're real strong in Port Townsend. Too slow. Yeah, sorry, Port Townsendites who didn't get quick with the linkage by going to bit.ly slash J-J-H-O-W-E-S-T, J-J-How-est or J-J-Ho-West. You missed out on tickets in Port Townsend, but guess what? Port Townsend is pretty close to Seattle, Washington. Drive on down, see us at the Neptune in Seattle.

People in Portland, Oregon, look, you're always great about coming out. Revolution Hall, that's a heck of a hall. It's a revolution in our performing space size in Portland, Oregon, so I hope you come out there and support us. Never been to Denver, Colorado before for Judge John Hodgman. I don't know that I've done a comedy event there since I almost strangled on my own breath at the Aspen Comedy Festival in 2005. I went to a Rockies game once. That's as close as I've gotten to performing there. I got to talk to Jeff Tweedy on stage there recently, and I enjoyed Denver a lot. And I said, you know what I like to do? Come back with Judge John Hodgman. And guess what? We're doing that at the Gothic Theater in Denver. And then, of course, SketchFest. We're coming back to San Francisco SketchFest to see our friends at

SketchFest. And our friends are you at the beautiful Sidney Goldstein Theater in San Francisco. That's going to be a great event. That's a beautiful theater that has a lot of seats in it. So please come support us there if you can. I'm also going to be doing an event the next day with Adam Savage, a little brunch event in which we spin a wheel of conversation. Jesse, I'm sure you're going to be doing a side side missions as well. You're all here at sketch fest. Doing Jordan,

Jesse go that evening, that Sunday evening at sketch fest. It's going to be a lot of fun. Going to have some awesome celebrity guests. It's going to be a blast. And we're coming back to Los Angeles. And this is something I'm really excited about, John. Yeah, me too. Because we couldn't announce our Los Angeles show before until we had this confirmed.

But we will be performing at the Masonic Lodge at Hollywood Forever Cemetery. Boom, boom, boom, laser sounds. A lot of people have fond feelings about going to Hollywood Forever because of the great movie screenings. If you've never been in the Masonic Lodge, it is one of the coolest performance rooms in all of Los Angeles. In fact, it's definitely the coolest I've ever been in. It is an incredible spot. And how's this for a Los Angeles plug, John? Unlimited free parking. I was going to ask if I was going to say something about parking. Unlimited free parking there.

free parking i was gonna ask if i was unlimited free parking there limited free parking i've never performed a bad show in a masonic hall and i've done more than my share of shows in masonic lodges before i'm really excited to add this one to my masonic belt it's gonna be a really really fun tour we're gonna have a great time Get yourself boosted and inoculated and safely tucked away until you can come out and see us. We will love to see you on the road because it is better when you are there. Tickets are on sale now. And the link, as I mentioned before, is bit.ly slash JJ Ho West. That's J-J-H-O-W-E-S-T. It's all capital letters. JJ Ho West, all capital letters with bit.ly slash in front of it. And we need your disputes for these cities. And we're gonna mention it later on as well. But you know, to make the shows, we need disputes. So let's say

you're in Port Townsend and you did not get a ticket, but you've got a great dispute. Send it in. We'll consider it. And if it's for us, we'll sneak you in the back. John, I want to meet the person who listens to this show and didn't get a ticket in time. I bet you there are poor Townsendites who feel totally skunked to borrow a phrase from this episode. And I feel bad bad for them if you have a dispute with someone that you'd like us to hear live on stage with you on the stage alive please let us know go to maximumfund.org slash jjho we will consider all cases for live adjudication just please make sure that you say which city you want to be adjudicated in make sure that you and the other party are going to be there and you're all okay with the possibility of going on stage. We can't have

everyone on stage, obviously. And if we pick you to go on stage, you know, presuming that personal safety allows it, we'll get to say hello and we'll have a nice time and you'll get to, I don't know, grab an apple from our catering. MaximumFud.org slash JJHO. Let's get back to the case. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. You should all know that I've just decided to not attempt to sing some version of the 12 Days of COVID. Even though that has come up constantly. There's such a temptation there on the 12th day of COVID.

Nope. And there are two pipers piping on this story too. But let me just say, everyone, pandemic is not over. I hope you're doing okay through this winter surge. You know, we're still living with this i hope everyone is taking good care of everyone in their lives both emotionally and physically getting your booster shots and your flu shots and all the other respiratory viruses that are going around these days, be careful out there. It's not worth singing about. Meanwhile, back to the lighthouse. Stacy and Ellen, here's what I got to say. I am not convinced, Stacy, that Ellen is knowingly deceiving you, is knowingly changing the rules

and pretending that they've always been that way in order to skunk you. I completely understand why you feel that way. I completely understand why it hurts. I completely understand why it is frustrating. And I completely understand why it is especially painful when this person who is obviously so dear to you and has such a placid face just looks at you and goes, no, you're wrong, I'm right.

Me and Beulah, my best friend from camp. I think what's happening here is what has been represented by Ellen. That Ellen is going to see her mommy and her sister and getting all kinds of new rules and ideas put in her head and singing camp songs and going on adventures. And then when she comes back, she's got all new ideas and she's working them into the game and the past becomes the present,

Grey Garden style, and it's hard to sift through what she taught you 20 years ago versus what she was just reminded of last week at Beulah's versus what she remembered five years ago. And that perhaps her memory selectively chooses rules to remember at certain times in order to skunk you but she's not doing it on purpose

and i say this only because i really sensed real empathy and hurt coming. It's one of the few times that Ellen showed emotion was when you, and I say that with great, you know, look, I'm a New Englander, you know, where emotional reticence is our greatest virtue, you know. But I mean, like, you seemed really shaken by the moment that Stacey revealed just how hard this hit her. Not the losing, but the feeling that the ground was being moved beneath her at all times. And then being told, no, this is solid ground. That's a horrible feeling. And you apologized immediately. So unless you are

truly some kind of monster who's playing Canasta at all times, this intense, intense head Canasta at all times, even as we were recording this podcast, and it's all an act that you're using to get to the next skunkin, I have to conclude that Ellen is not doing this on purpose. That said, the fact that Ellen is not doing it on purpose does not mean it's not a problem. It's a big problem. It's a problem that has been a problem for years. And it's a problem that you both, I think the onus is a little bit on you, Ellen, should have tended to a little earlier in your friendship

rather than let it come to this. Rather than to say, I think she's a little mixed up. If you knew that your friend was hurting, you gotta help your friend. It's just, you want, your ideal ruling is to play cards and have fun. Sure, go fish. This is Canasta. This is real.

The stakes are real. You taught it to her. It's meaningful to her that you taught her the game that you played with your mom and your sister. It's a gift from your family to hers. Like, there's no money involved, but it's hard to hear from someone that you trust and that you respect. It's like, oh, that game I taught you,

the rules are different now. You know? That would be hard even if it weren't this heirloom of competitive spite that you received from your mother that you're trying to give to Stacey in the form of some good old-fashioned skunkins. But the fact is that you love each other and the fact that Stacey loves you, this is a hard thing. Should have been tended to before. Good thing we're going to tend to it now because it's going to stop. It's going to before. Good thing we're going to tend to it now because it's going to stop. It's going to stop. There's a simple answer that should have been enacted long ago,

which is, you know, these are parlor games. There's a reason that there are a million different variations of hands and feet, which is a variation of canasta, of which there are a million different variations there as well, which is they're played in homes and parlors. And in homes, house rules develop, you know. And then they get passed around and people like this rule, they don't like that rule. You know, it's social, you know.

It's like you change it up, you pass it along. I can completely understand why things get confused. But just because Beulula said it yesterday doesn't mean that it's been true since 2002. So you got to go to a separate authority. Now, one way I was thinking of suggesting this would be for you to sit down and teach each other the game of Canasta from scratch. Sit down, forget 20 years of history, not be one student and one learner, but be two students working through your memories of how you've played and create a set of rules that will be the Stacey Ellen family rules going forward. And write them down and then take a picture of that thing that's written down and put that picture in the cloud and let it be everywhere always so that the dispute will not

come up. Will it be identical to what Beulah is now playing with your sister, Ellen? I don't know. I don't know how many Beulah variations there might be in the future. That's the beauty of the game. I don't know how many Beulah variations there might be in the future. That's the beauty of the game. But it is perfectly acceptable for the two of you to create your variation that is the one that is played when you are together. And you take out those rules and you review them before you play, and everyone's on the same playing table. Now, that's one way of doing it.

There's another way of doing it, which is, I think, a little bit more complicated, but I think ultimately worth it. What I would like to order you to do, and only if this is feasible, and for all the reasons I mentioned before, if it's safe for all parties involved, is that I want you, Ellen, and you, Stacey, to go to Beulah. And I want Beulah to teach Stacey how to play hands and feet. And Ellen is not allowed to speak. And I want Jason to get his old-timey Degara-type film recording device,

and I want Jason to film it. Now, Stacey now is covering her hands in grave dismay. And if this is not okay for whatever reason, you don't have to do this. But I think that whether it is you, Stacey, who is now going to Beulah and being taught the rules, not to play a game and get skunked. I'm not ordering you to get skunked in this life.

I'm saying go to the source and learn what Beulah says. Capture that moment in, and have it forever. And Ellen's job is to observe and not to ask questions or butt in or to say, but you taught me this way, but you taught me that way, just to get a baseline rule of hands and feet. On record, taught to get a baseline rule of hands and feet. On record, taught to you, Stacey. Then it becomes a gift that you both share from this obviously formidable personality, and it becomes a document of this person that you will want to have in the years going forward you know i had a great-grandmother who was alive until i was 20 which is rather unusual she was 108 or 9 and when she was in her 90s my dad uh did a long videotaped interview about her whole life. And we would have, there was stuff on there that we would have never known about had he not done it. No one knows where that

videotape is. But the point is, for a while we did. I think that would be a really cool document to have. And it would also serve, as our friend Ronald Thomas Clontell would say in our Sky episode, it would be the ultimate argument settler. You can pick either version of this. I'm not trying to steer you into complicated family situations, Stacey. upset that you put your hands over your face. If you really don't need or want to be a part of that, I still would encourage Jason to get out his, his old timey tape recorder and record Beulah teaching someone the game hands and feet from soup to nuts. Because I think it'd be interesting to have as a family document on your side, Ellen,

at the very least say, so you can be a part of it if you want, but either you two sit down together as a duo and create the new rules or, you know, the Stacey-Ellen rules, or you go to the source and you get the Bueller rules between Bueller and Stacey. Either way, A, B, you decide. Flip a coin. That's sporting. This is the sound of a gavel. Do you mean I win again? Yeah, you win. But now we're going to play another little game. Judge John Hodgman rules.

That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Stacey, how do you feel? You know, I feel like I'm going to cry. This has been really cathartic. This has been like a really big, I don't know, bruise in our apple. It would be really nice to settle the rules and stop the nonsense. But I love you so much.

I know. Ellen, how do you feel? I did not realize how big a problem this was. And I will defer to Stacey how she wants to proceed. either we decide on the rules together or if she wants to go see my mom and have my mom teach her although I don't know if that's what she wants I will defer to her I think we'll write the rules together after this because the two families are going to play together And then I live near her mom and I adore her mom. And I've always wanted an excuse to spend time with Beulah. So I think I'll go down to your mom's and just record her and I'll have an excuse. I'll just say I was ordered to do it.

Ellen, do you love Stacey or not? I love Stacey so much. She's my best friend. We are there for each other. So it's so unusual to have this thing like this between us. Stacey, Ellen, thanks for joining us on Judge John Hodgman. Thanks. Bye-bye. Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books uh in a moment we will have some swift justice first our thanks to at irony maiden for naming this week's episode meld in contempt if you want

to name a future episode join us on the maximum fun subreddit maximum fun.reddit.com, where Jen will be asking for your suggestions. Evidence and photos from the show are on our Instagram account at Instagram.com slash JudgeJohnHodgman. Make sure to follow us there. We are also individually on Instagram at John Hodgman and at Put.This.On. This week's episode was recorded by Ellen's husband, Jason Martz. You can find his work online at jasonmartz.com j-a-s-u-n-m-a-r-t-z

dot com. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Our editor is Valerie Moffat. Now, swift justice! Your small disputes answered with quick judgment. Robert says, my wife wants a pig, I don't. You need 100% total partner agreement on a pig.

Never mind a pig, a dog, cat, any kind of animal. Jason Martz. I had no idea who I was talking to there. This guy's an American record producer composer musician fine artist creative director and sculptor do you know that he helped arrange we built this city by starship no i did not that old lighthouse keeper is rock royalty holy he's the featured harmonica soloist on streetwalker a bad outtake michael jackson's bad outtake that appeared on bad 25 is a bonus track he's recorded with toward with frank zappa oh my goodness jason martz thank you very much for being

part of the judge john hodgman family i had no idea and boy is david reese going to be so happy about your connection with um we built this city on rock and roll uh anyway yeah pigs uh you gotta you gotta both be on board to get a pig especially a a pig. February is coming up, and I'm going to say, are there some Groundhog Day disputes? or here in Los Angeles, make sure to send us your disputes and let us know that you're in those places. Maximumfund.org slash JJHO. We're going to have a great time with you out on the road and we need your cases. Maximumfund.org slash JJHO. And if you're in one of those places, make sure to make mention of that fact. How about this? February's coming up. Are there some Groundhog Day disputes? Whoa, deja vu. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximumfun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Audience supported.