Judge John Hodgman - Might as Well Judge

Episode Date: July 6, 2017

Jackson brings the case against his friend, Jesse. They are at odds about the merits of Van Halen bassist Michael Anthony. Jesse insists Michael Anthony is an unsung genius. Jackson disagrees and wants to put this debate to rest. Who’s right? Who’s wrong? With Expert Witness John Darnielle! Thank you to Adam Capybara, Mike Kennedy, and Chris Rini for suggesting this week's title! To suggest a title for a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions.  

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, might as well judge. Jackson brings the case against his friend Jesse. They're at odds about the merits of Van Halen bassist Michael Anthony. Jesse insists Michael Anthony is an unsung genius. Jackson disagrees and wants to put this debate to rest. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. So when we were first designing the label, my original hot sauce, we came up with this phrase on the front, which I thought was kind of witty. But unfortunately, places like Trader Joe's take a look at the bottle and they go, oh no, I don't think we're going to go for that. So we're in the process of revamping that. End quote. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in. Jackson, Jesse, please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you God or whatever. I do. Or whatever I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite his merely competent bass playing? I do. I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman? Jackson and Jesse, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgments in one of yours favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture I referenced when I entered the

courtroom, Jackson, why don't you guess first? I am going to guess that that is taken from an interview. Michael Anthony gave about a brand of hot sauce that he is currently selling with a less than savory name. Michael Anthony interview regarding a brand of hot sauce. I have entered it into the guest book.

We'll see what happens. Jesse, not you, Bailiff Jesse Thorne, Litigant Jesse, whom we shall refer to by his first and last name in order to make this clear. This was Jackson's suggestion that he docks his friend on the podcast. So Jesse Robb, that is your last name, correct? That is correct. Yes. And your, just for the record, your social security number, please. Sure. It's 555-555. Wait, hold on. Oh, I've heard about you. 1-900. Yep.

Very good. Now it is your turn to guess. Jackson guessed that it was an interview with the bassist Michael Anthony, the subject of this particular dispute, regarding his brand of hot sauce. What is your guess? He is 100% correct. That is Michael Anthony speaking about his hot sauce, That is Michael Anthony speaking about his hot sauce, giving a quote about the name of the hot sauce. I'm not 100% sure what the name is. I do know that it is unsavory and not fit to repeat on this family show. But he is looking to expand it. Well, all guesses are mostly right, but wrong enough that we can proceed i knew that you would get it

because you are both uh well one of you is a michael anthony aficionado and the other one is a michael anthony anti-aficionado and that's what this dispute is about whether or not michael anthony the original bass player for the band van halen is a good or bad bassist, or rather, Jesse Robb, you would say a genius bassist, and Jackson, you would say not a genius. You are correct. Michael Anthony does have a hot sauce. This interview with Brian Reisman posted April 2, 2010,

at 1 a.m. on his website, Attention Deficit Delirium, is about that hot sauce. The hot sauce, though, does not have a.m. on his website, Attention Deficit Delirium, is about that hot sauce. The hot sauce, though, does not have a terrible name. The hot sauce is simply called Mad Anthony. So that's not so bad. But the motto that he chose, and neither of you can remember it, right? No. No, but I do actually, I would like to posit that the motto in question is only on one of the three hot sauce varieties that he has produced.

Who's talking right now? Who's talking right now? That is Jesse Robb. Jesse Robb? Yes. I know you want to come to the defend of your favorite bassist in the world. And you want to say as much as you possibly can about him and show off your knowledge. But you can't go against me in my courtroom.

I got Wikipedia up in front of me right now. I know exactly what you're talking about. It's only on the Matt Anthony analog hot sauce. It's not on his barbecue sauce. It's not on his mustard sauce. And the tagline, the motto that he chose, knowing that this is a family-friendly podcast,

grown-ups and mature children will be able to figure out the code that I'm using. The tagline motto is, Mad Anthony Hot Sauce, so hot you'll need two pie holes. You understand what I'm saying. Let's get down to the dispute then. So Jackson, you have brought Jesse to this court because he thinks that Michael Anthony of Van Halen is a genius.

You do not. Correct. That is absolutely correct. Jesse Robb, do you verify that you Van Halen is a genius. You do not. Correct. That is absolutely correct. Jesse Robb, do you verify that you believe Michael Anthony is a genius? I... Yes or no, sir? Yes. Yes. Yes.

I'll dig in. All right. The best bassist who ever lived? No. Who's the best bassist who ever lived? You must have in your Trapper Keeper a list of the greatest bassists of all time. Oh, boy. That is a tricky one.

I mean... Let's just say... Here, let's narrow it down. Top five? Sure. Top five. Top five bases. Oh, man.

See, now I'm on the spot. I was here with Michael Anthony on the brain. Yeah, that's fine. You're here to defend Michael Anthony. Yeah, I'm here to defend Michael Anthony. It's up to Jackson to say who is better than Michael Anthony. And Jackson, your answer would be everyone, correct?

Most people. There are definitely bassists that are worse than Michael Anthony. The late Sid Vicious comes to mind, for example. That punk? Yes, literally that punk. Come on. That guy didn't know how to play bass before his first before they recorded that album exactly ah i would say that i would say that he is one of the few bass players who are worse than damning with no praise

will you say michael anthony is the worst living bassist no i would not say that um i would say that he is a competent bassist. I would say that like many, you know, known professional musicians, he is, you know, already that puts him in the top 10% of musicians, period. Because he's a professional musician. Exactly.

He's a professional, known musician, and therefore he's better than me. I'm perfectly happy saying that. I understand. And how often does Jesse bring this up such that you felt the need to bring him to court? Um, well, uh, a, an activity that we regularly engage in when we are in the same city and hanging out is, uh, you know, listening to records and, uh, spouting trivia and, uh, nonsense opinions about those records. Uh, we both love the music of Van Halen. And every time Van Halen comes on the stereo,

Jesse attempts to convince me that Michael Anthony is actually an unsung genius and does the thing where he's like, listen to this part, this part right here. Then shuts me up. I have to listen very intently for a half a second worth of, uh, of Phil, uh, that is supposed to convince me that he is, you know, as good or better than people like, uh, Mark Sandman or flea or something like that. Not only does Jesse talk to you about it every time it comes up,

but he has written a 1000 word article. I have it on authority here. Jesse's a part-time music writer. He's written a 1000 word article about the genius of Michael Anthony. He says he has. Yes. And if I rule in your favor, Jackson, he's going to print it out and shred it and never publish it.

He doesn't need to rule in Jesse's favor. We're going to publish it on the judge, John Hodgman page at maximum fund.org. And i'm going to social media the heck out of it i see become the most famous 1000 word article about michael anthony that's ever been published very good as much as i want to do that jesse i don't know enough about base basing i guess you would call it uh-huh to really be able to determine whether or not your proposition is correct. So, Jesse Robb, we have an expert witness here in the courtroom, a friend of the fake Internet court of Judge John Hodgman and bailiff Jesse Thorne. Would you please bring the expert witness in and introduce him? Absolutely. He's not only an acclaimed novelist with a brilliant new book called Universal Harvester,

you also know him as the lead singer, frontman, and sometimes totality of the band The Mountain Goats, whose newest album is called Goths. It's out now. He stopped by our studios in Los Angeles while on musical tour of this great nation. The court's leading expert on heavy metal music, Mr. John Darnielle. Thank you, Bailiff Thorne. Thank you, Your Honor.

Guest expert, John Darnielle, nice to have you back in the courtroom. So good to be here. So good to be here. Now, you are an expert in heavy metal. You previously consulted with the court on the topic of death metal. That's right. A dude wanted to get his girlfriend to listen to death metal, something that has never happened in the history of time

before it happened on our court. Is Van Halen, though, heavy metal? No, right? Well, it would depend on who you talk to. I'm talking to you. According to me, they're in the tradition. Not now. You don't hear them and go, that's heavy metal. But it's a term that they would have been saddled with a little when they were playing.

Chuck Eddy, who's a critic of Real Insight, he has a much broader definition of heavy metal than I do. He dates back to Blue Cheer and even pre that. He thinks it's more of an attitude. Really, after the mid-'80s, metal changes so much that it'd be hard to call Van Halen heavy metal. But hard rock is part Halen heavy metal. But hard rock, you know, is part of the heavy metal tradition. Is there a difference between heavy metal as a genre and metal as a genre? So that's a good question. I don't know. I mean, metal really is just short for heavy metal, but at the same time, I think it does feel like a more inclusive term. You know, it's like you can

have metal that isn't that heavy, but it's still identifiably metal, you know, but I think probably it's more of an abbreviation. It's the same thing with hip hop. There's a lot of hop that isn't that heavy, but it's still identifiably metal, you know, but I think probably it's more of an abbreviation. It's the same thing with hip hop. There's a lot of hop that isn't particularly hip. Yeah. I could never figure when I was just, you know, 89, 88 getting into rap, it was like, well, rap or hip hop, are these loaded and freighted terms? Like, which one do you use?

So most rappers I know use the term rap instead of hip hop. Rap is something you listen to. Hip hop is something you live. That's right. Hip-hop is the five elements of which rap is one. Getting back to heavy metal. So, alright, Van Halen is in the tradition of heavy metal. No discussion of Van Halen

can ever occur without people suddenly starting to talk about rap music. They're inextricably tied together. One always leads to the other. But before we go down that road, you mentioned that after the 80s, heavy metal diverged and went into a different place. Where did it go and why did it go there? It just got a lot heavier starting around 86, maybe 84.

I mean, Bay Area, Thrash, Metallica, all the guys who were playing up there and the Southern California people like Possessed made it so much heavier. And it also got very far away from blues-based roots. Van Halen is just building on blues rock. That's what they're doing. They're making it faster and cooler, you know, but they're not doing what a band like Possessed is doing, which is saying, we don't want to play any blues riffs at all. We want wicked, evil sounding stuff.

Now, original lead singer singer and i believe now current lead singer again diamond david lee raw diamond dave pushed it all into a kind of vaudeville glammy hair metal vein that a lot of of bands imitated and that became very popular for a long time until i kind of think and this is why van helen always leads to hip hop, hip hop and R&B started to take over popular music in the 90s. And now metal has become much more genre. But for the children who are listening out there driving around in your cars, Van Halen, very, very, very popular band throughout the 80s. The four members, Diamond David Lee Roth, Eddie Van Halen. What's the other Van Halen John Alex Alex Van Halen the one whose name everyone forgets coincidentally also the name of the band Van

Halen's and uh and then Michael Anthony the bass player tell us a little bit about Michael Anthony John uh well Michael Anthony is I don't know him nor do I know anybody else who does but he's one of those guys who everybody, put this in quote, everybody knows that he's not a very nice fellow. You hear this a lot. But I don't, you know what, it's like I don't put a lot of currency in that. He's one of those people who people will say, oh, yeah, no, I hear Michael Anthony, and they'll say something about him.

But the rhythm section of Van Halen is sort of the, I won't say the secret weapon, but it is, you know, Van Halen's the name of the band. It should be about guitar solos, but that combo of Michael Anthony and Alex Van Halen is actually the sound of the band, as far as I'm concerned. The guitar is great. The riffs are great. Dave gives a lot of personality, but that rhythm section, especially around the time of 1984, that's the unmistakable sound of the band, right? Is the Alex Van Halen hitting the ride super hard and the eighth notes, the bass booing it up, you know.

No, the sound of the band was Panama! No, no. What you're hearing when you hear Panama is the ride symbol and the bass. Without that rhythm section, they're really nothing. If I close my eyes and listen to Van Halen, I hear their signature sound, which is

that flag snapping in the wind as David Lee Roth crosses from one side of the stage to the other. Yeah, that's right. That flag snapping sound of David Lee Roth. The flag snapping sound of Diamond Dave. Well, when you say secret weapon, I'm willing to accept secret is the term best applied to that weapon. I do think if you'd taken any other rhythm section of the genre in that day and told them to do what Michael Anthony and Alex Van Halen do, you would not have a band that was even half as good. So you are saying, if I may, that Michael Anthony, as bassist for this band, is instrumental to the Van Halen sound. Would you raise your hand and swear to that and make the Hail Satan sign while

you're doing it? Yes, I would. But I would also modify that by saying it's not just as a bassist, but as a backing vocalist, which is a super important craft that people minimize. But actually, it's a harder job to do than lead because anybody can stand there and yell if they have charisma. They don't even have to hit notes. But a backing vocalist has a very specific job to do that is a more musical job than the lead vocalist, generally speaking. And he's really good at it. Him and Dave are sort of the John Doe and Xene of the hard rock scene. It's very distinctive and good harmonies. Deep cuts for some of the Judge John Hodgman listeners, I'm sure. But, well, it's interesting you say that because in my Michael Anthony research, you know, he basically parted with the band by the late 90s, he wasn't playing on many of their recorded tracks.

Stopped touring with them in 2004. But even between that time, he was still singing backup, even when he wasn't playing bass. He's good at it. He's a really good backing singer. Boy, you know, for a guy that everyone knows is a terrible person, I'm glad we're able to give him his due. Michael Anthony, if you're out there, I have're out there you seem like a nice guy to me one last question before we get back to the case and then I hope you will chime in

as much as you like John Darnielle you're a guy who's familiar with the history of dudes sitting around listening to bands and having a fight over whether the bassist is good or bad is this dispute between Jesse Robb and Jackson about Michael Anthony's bass playing something you've never heard before or a common fight among Van Halenites?

I haven't heard this particular look at it, but what it does sound to me like is actually more a discussion about the aesthetics of music, about whether you're're judging somebody on their playing on their chops or on what they contribute to a track right and those are different criteria right uh because you can otherwise otherwise obviously Yngwie Malmsteen is the best guitarist of the genre the end right he's the fastest he plays the most he plays all over everything he never stops agreed I would characterize him as the greatest musician of the 20th century. But the thing is, but Yngwie is not, you know, if you take Michael Denner from Merciful Fate,

well, he's not an Yngwie, but I would argue that he contributes more to his band's songs, or Hank Sherman, than Yngwie does to his bands. Because Yngwie is just playing as fast as he can all over everything, right? Michael Anthony is not doing that. He's playing eighth notes. But they always fit really well. I don't think a Roger Patterson style of bass or Jaco Pastorius or whoever is really going to serve a Van Halen song the way that Michael Anthony holding down a rigid four is going to do.

Larry Graham. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's the thing. Funk is a good point of contact in talking about this. It's not how much you play or how fast you play. It's do you land on the one squarely every time, or were you doing that before there were computer programs to move your beats over?

And, of course, Michael Anthony was doing that before there were computers to make him play good. Yes, although it's my understanding also that people who were good at tape editing could make a bad bassist seem good if there was enough money back in the day. Well, let's get a time machine and make a lot of money. Let's take a quick break. We'll hear more about Michael Anthony with expert witness John Darnielle in just a minute. Hello, I'm your judge, John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org, and they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters

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Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Jackson and Jesse disagree about whether or not Michael Anthony of Van Halen is an unsung genius. John Darnielle is here as expert witness. Why does Jesse think Michael Anthony is so great? Let's go back into the courtroom to find out. All right, Jesse, Rob, you heard John Darnielle talking about your boyfriend, Michael Anthony. Here's my summation of what I understood from John Darnielle. Dude may not play the most notes, but he's an integral part of the band and, uh,

the secret weapon of the band sound. Do you agree with that assessment? Or would you go further to say that Michael Anthony is even better than John Darneel says? Uh, my original position would be exactly lined up with him. And then as Jackson kept prodding me more and more, and I kept going further down the Michael Anthony rabbit hole, I would say that Michael Anthony

is more and more and more of a prestigious bass soloist as well. So in your dude hang fights, you were prompted to do even more research and your esteem has only grown. It is true. All right. Jackson, you've heard that no one likes Michael Anthony. You've heard he's no Yngwie Malmsteen of the base. Right.

You've heard he doesn't have the chops. What else do you want to lay on this poor dude? What else do you want to lay on this poor dude? Well, I would like to clarify one thing, which is that this case is exclusively based on Michael Anthony's bass playing, not on his overall position in the band. I would agree completely with John Darnielle that background singing is an underrated art form, and Michael Anthony does it amazingly. He also brings a lot of charisma to the band he was a very fun person to watch stop buttering up my expert witness of course everyone agrees with john darneil nicest guy in rock and roll everyone loves john darneil oh boy he's the anti michael anthony in that regard all right you just want to limit this to bass only yes yes we're going to carve out a discussion for bass yes um and so you're saying when you listen to michael anthony

play bass you're like that's no good it's it's not that it's no good it's just it's fine it does the job um it's acceptable um the the thing is is that uh the kind of frenetic uh you know pop heavy metal whatever you want to call van halen as it is, is inherently, I think, a genre of excess. It is something where there's no such thing as tactful playing. If you can play all the notes, you should play all the notes. And I would argue that somebody like Rush, for example, Geddy Lee is a bass player who plays all the notes when it's appropriate to play all the notes. But in these sections where it's appropriate to play all the notes and play frenetic and fast and do these huge runs and things that Michael Anthony

instead sticks to playing the straight eighth notes, which again, it keeps the beat. He's right on the one. It's fine. It's good. But to say that he is this accomplished virtuoso, I think is pushing it a little bit. Jesse, Rob, accomplished virtuoso, will you own those words? I will. So when you analyze the music of Van Halen, I think we often like to, you know, look to songs like Hot for Teacher and put them in that category of, you know, near speed metal. Wait a minute, do they have other songs? It is true, Judge Hodgman. But I think the other thing that a lot of people forget is that Diamond Dave often talks about in his autobiography, Crazy from the Heat. He was, you know, born and raised on a lot of the early blues rock and has a lot of R&B

influence as well. You don't need to quote that book. Just tell me what page you're quoting. I'll know it. Go ahead. I apologize. He was raised on blues rock. A lot of blues rock, a lot of R&B. His favorite band of all time was Grand Funk Railroad, and that's all he wanted Van Halen to be. So if you look at a lot of their covers, and most of Van Halen is a lot of covers as well, a lot of them, you know, you've got Dancing in the Street, you've got a lot of these early R&B covers. A lot of the rhythm section are playing these sort of R&B style rhythm pieces. So you don't really have a rhythm section trying to play a speed metal style kind of music. You have the rhythm section trying to hold the backbeat. You've got Eddie playing

everything up front. You've got Dave doing his singing thing. But I would really actually try to liken Van Halen structuring the band a lot more like how Led Zeppelin did. No one's going to argue that John Paul Jones was a poor bass player. John Paul Jones was an amazing bass player, but you listen to half the Led Zeppelin songs, and the dude barely moved off the quarter note for like 90% of the track, and everyone was fine with it. Once Michael Anthony does the same thing, everybody starts to, you know, make fun of him because the dude had a Jack Daniels bass. Do you think...

Go ahead, John Darnielle. I want to say the claim was made a moment ago that metal is necessarily a genre of excess and that playing more is more metal. But the band I wanted to cite, John Paul Jones is a good site, but also Geezer Butler. I don't think anybody can minimize

Geezer Butler's presence as a heavy metal bassist. He's one of the founding authors of the genre, right? He's Black Sabbath's bassist. And he is not playing as much as he can. It's a lot like with Sly and Robbie, the reggae rhythm section. It's not how much you play. It's just what you contribute.

It's how hard you hold it down. And Geezer Butler's a monster, right? And Black Sabbath, like this is the one band where no one can argue about their primacy in heavy metal. Black Sabbath is ground zero, right? And so if we listen to them, we know that it's not about how much you play. We know that it's more about what you play and what it adds to the track. Jackson, you just got smacked down by John Darnielle. I enjoyed it. I would say, I'll narrow my focus then a little bit, and I would say that specifically hair metal, specifically this particular genre of heavy metal from 1977 when Van Halen's first album came out until I think it was like 1991 when Cherry Pie came out.

I think that was like the last great hair metal single. Solve for great. For certain degrees of great. All right. But I would say that that particular subgenre of rock and roll, heavy metal, whatever you want to call it, that kind of Sunset Strip, primarily Los Angeles 1980s brand of music is inherently a genre of excess. Yeah, but Jackson, we've already established in this court that Van Halen was a transitional band between R&B heavy metal and the later hair metal that inspired.

You and I have done enough Van Halen research to understand that. Even I have done enough Van Halen research to understand that. The question isn't whether Michael Anthony should be playing more notes, because obviously he played the exact right number of notes to make Van Halen one of the most successful and definitive bands of its time, until he was gradually edged out of the band and replaced now with Eddie Van Halen's son, Wolfgang Van Halen. But whether Michael Anthony should have been playing more notes, the question is

could he have been? Jesse, Rob, if we took Michael Anthony out of Van Halen and put him in another band, let's say a band I made up called Chickenfoot. You did not make up Chickenfoot. Oh, that's right. That's because Michael Anthony and Sammy H I made up called Chicken Foot. You did not make up Chicken Foot.

No? Oh, that's right. That's because Michael Anthony and Sammy Hagar made up that band. Sure. When Van Halen didn't want to have anything to do with them anymore. Because they were off making hot sauce and tequila brands all the time instead of rocking. That's right. Come at me, Sammy Hagar.

I can drive 55. It's the law. at me, Sammy Hagar. I can drive 55. It's the law. But this is where the litigant has a very strong case, is that if you take Michael Anthony and you put him in early Metallica when Cliff Burton was the bassist, or you put him in Atheist when Roger Patterson was alive, it'd be a joke. He can't do what those guys do, right? So if you consider music an absolute scale of competence, right, then yeah, those guys are better bassists. They can do more, and they could probably do what he did. But they didn't.

That's the thing. It's not how much you can do. It's whether the thing you do is considered useful by a lot of people. But yeah, in terms of absolute proficiency, I really doubt he could do the kind of Jaco Pastorius all up and down the neck stuff that those guys can do. I don't think he's bad. And he did have a bass shaped like a Jack Daniels bottle. Did Jaco Pastorius have that? No, he did not.

Though he's rumored to have had plenty of Jack Daniels bottles. Let's talk about what Michael Anthony can do. You guys both submitted some evidence. Talking about bass is not as much fun as listening to bass. So we have some evidence submitted Talking about bass is not as much fun as listening to bass. So we have some evidence submitted here by Jackson. We're going to go with his evidence first. So Jackson, tell me

what I'm going to hear with clip number one. So here is the studio version of Runnin' with the Devil, probably one of Van Halen's best-known songs, and an excellent example of this straight ahead, right on the beat bass playing that Michael Anthony does. All right, Bailiff Jesse Thorne, spin the disc. you know what jesse rob uh-huh i could do that this is very true

um boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom is that geniusesse robb uh you know i'm biding my time i've got my own evidence uh submitted okay so you declined to defend it well i think that is a perfect example exactly of i mean if we want to look at you know the same kind of situation like i was explaining before uh you know, writing the beat, holding the tempo. I mean, it's exactly what the song needed exactly when the song needed it. Do we need anything else from the bass at that point in time? I think it's one of the most iconic bass lines that any song has ever had. You hear that kick on and what does everybody do? They crack a beer and they rev up the Pont pontiac gto i was definitely nodding my head along to that one of the most iconic bass lines that any song has ever had a substantial claim

yeah that went from i'm not even going to talk about this to this is literally the greatest thing in history in the blink of an eye the thing is i mean this is where this is where my he's good in the track argument is like if you pull up first bass line, I thought of listening to that. Because I was listening also to the tone, which I think is pretty poor. I have to say, I think it's a Ted Templeman production. I don't know what they're thinking with that bass tone. Come on, Templeman. Who am I to contest success?

But at the same time, you think of, let's do a Frankie Valli track called The Night. It's a Northern Soul classic. And the opening bass line, which I think is probably the Wrecking Crew from Motown, it's just so gorgeous and accomplished. And you compare it to... Do the Frankie Valli

bass line, John Darnielle. Can you do it? This is like... Oh, do it this is like uh oh john darneel the human bass box the night is like i think it's been used a couple movies it's like this absolute masterpiece of northern soul so jackson you you've made your case with this picking a rather dull bass line yes Yes. Or I should say rudimentary bass line. But my head was nodding a little bit. Your head was nodding. What are you trying to prove here with this evidence? So I have a couple of things to put this in context, which is that, yes, that is, you know, the thing that the song kind of needs in order to start it off.

And, you know, one could argue that excess playing would detract from this. An argument that Jesse Robb has made with me is that Eddie Van Halen is kind of a musical tyrant and prevents, he kind of held Michael Anthony back from displaying, you know, his virtuosity. And there's another example of a band well i'm liking this band more and more but a bunch of creeps in this band apparently uh so you go on jackson so a a

situation similar to uh eddie van halen as the tyrant uh holding someone back is uh the who in which pete townsend uh reigned in virtuoso John Entwistle on the bass. And in the track, John Entwistle would play these straight quarter notes, but when live, I would direct anybody to listen to the live tracks off of the Who compilation, The Kids Are Alright. And you hear these very simple parts just exploding and expanding into these giant fills that I you know will sit in my bedroom and attempt to play over and over and over again but in the meantime and couldn't hold him back on on stage exactly exactly and so so what does Michael Anthony do on stage well just take a

listen I've got a clip of him from playing Running with the Devil live from 1983. Same song, live. Why don't you spin it for us, Bailiff Jesse Thorne. Well, that was different because he went boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So that was different. Well, no, to be fair, John, he did that and then he went boom, boom, ba-dum, boom. I want to know what is the argument that Running With the Devil, a Van Halen track generally accepted by most of us who like the band as one of the good ones, right? The Running with the Devil would be better if the bass line was a...

This would not be a better Running with the Devil. I want to hear the Seinfeld mix. It would be a very different Running with the Devil and we would not be talking about it right now. It would be very different running with the devil, and we would not be talking about it right now. You should have heard, before they put his kid in, for a while they were touring with Victor Wooten. Oh, it was good. It was spectacular. Everybody loved it.

Well, how does he compare now to the current bassist for Van Halen, Wolfgang Van Halen, the son of Eddie Van Halen. Yeah, I would say that you can make a direct A-B comparison of somebody inserting some more color notes into that live setting to kind of liven it up a little bit. From specifically, there is a Van Halen live album from 2013. And as has been mentioned, like all tyrants, Eddie Van Halen has incorporated his adult children into the regime where he's brought in Wolfgang Van Halen. And he skillfully replicates the same feel of Michael Anthony's original part. But he puts in these fun accent notes and also does a spectacular little fill at the end of the intro that is absent from the original studio recording. I have a recording of this as well, if you would care to listen. All right. Hand that to the bailiff. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, play this tape.

That does not improve the song. That does not improve the song. That is not serving the song. But John Darnielle, he's playing more notes. I know he is, and it's not adding anything of value to the song. I would contend that in a live setting, it adds something of value to the song. Maybe in a live setting, sure. You can argue that when a person plays more, the audience pops for that. I get that.

But musically, if we're talking musically, I don't think you can make the case for that part. You can make it, you can, stagecraft, you can make the case for that. But John Darnielle,

I am not an expert of any metal. And I say, as a naive, respectfully, as a dumb dumb, I as a dum-dum, I kind of enjoyed that one a little bit more. Did you? On the first one.

Yeah. But I don't know. I've never heard the song before. That's the only part of the song I've ever heard. And will ever hear. I might finish it now that I've heard Wolfgang's take on it. But even if I, it is, of course, the maximum of this courtroom that people like what they like. But even if I, Judge John Hodgman, happen to like Wolfgang Van Halen a little bit more,

Jackson, with respect, I don't think it proves your point, right, that Michael Anthony couldn't do what Wolfgang was doing in there. Just because Eddie Van Halen kept Michael Anthony down, doesn't mean that he exercised the same tyranny with his own son. Indeed, I would imagine he was probably a little bit more indulgent of Wolfgang once he kicked Michael Anthony to the curb to install his own son in the band Van Halen. Think of it this way. Michael Anthony is like Sean Spicer,

but Wolfgang Van Halen is Jared Kushner, Eddie Van Halen's Trump. Eddie Van Halen's going to let Jared Kushner get away with a lot more, but he's going to push Sean Spicer around. And also Sean Spicer has that Jack Daniel shaped microphone that he uses for his briefings for some reason. All right. I enjoyed that evidence, but I want to give Jesse Rob a chance to present his evidence now. What do you, what am I going to listen to here, Jesse? So, uh, one of the biggest problems that I think that you do run into trying to listen for Michael Anthony's bass parts is that, uh, Eddie Van Halen did have a lot of creative control over the

production. So it's often turned down really low in the mix. So what I have done is I... You just didn't want him around. This is also very true. That's why he was allowed to do backup vocals, but not allowed to record the bass parts for later tracks in those later recordings. So I took a couple of clips from some songs and I turned the bass EQ up a little bit higher. So it's a few kind of 10 second clips. It starts out with Where Have All the Good Times Gone, Push Comes to Shove, Light Up the Sky, and Romeo Delight. None of these are Van Halen songs that anybody has really ever heard

of. And that's kind of where Michael Anthony has a time to shine. None of them are really hits. Nobody really cares about these tracks. And it's kind of where I think he had a chance to sneak a little bit more out. All right, let's listen to this bass boosted medley of the least successful Van Halen songs featuring Michael Anthony on Deep Cuts. Bailiff, Jesse Thorne, Spin the Wheels. The things they used to do Never had no money And they always told the truth Daddy didn't need no little toys

Mommy didn't need no little toys We'll be right back. All right. That was deep cuts from Michael Anthony. John Darnielle, what's your assessment of Jesse Robb's evidence? So it's good evidence. Romeo's Delight especially is one that I would actually, back in the day when we were talking about Van Halen, they would cite that as one of the more musical things because among my peer group, the only question was,

does Van Halen suck or not, right? That was our discussion we would have. And you'd look at them and go, well, you know, their attitude is sort of not, doesn't have any cultural currency in our peer group, but they can play and they have a very specific sound that they got, right? And I think, yeah, he's a better bassist than he generally gets a chance to be. But again, I don't think how much you flex your chops is a mark of your value to the band. I think how much is what you're playing

part of the band's sound is the bigger question. There's one thing that I, I think I need to be illuminated on before I get into my, my tour bus. That is my traveling chambers and, and sit in my traveling hot tub and consider this. And I'm going to leave this to you, Jesse, Michael Anthony,

people, according to John Darneal thing think he's a bad dude. He was in the biggest band of the 80s. He was edged out and not even allowed to play bass on their later albums. And now was replaced by Eddie Van Halen's son. And now he just makes hot sauce. What happened to this guy? What's the story?

What am I missing about Michael Anthony as a person that has allowed his career to take this turn? Well, so he is, you're forgetting he's also in Chicken Foot and is also a full-time member of the. All right, I've heard everything I need to in order to make. What's the book on Michael Anthony, you guys? Is he okay? Misunderstood? Or all too well understood as a human being? Jesse, how bad should I feel for him?

I... I... Oh, man. I think he landed all right. He's in another super group featuring, you know, a virtuoso guitar player and an extremely competent drummer and, uh, you know, another singer who can do whatever he wants. Uh, and he's making his money. He's got his hot sauce fortune as well. Um, but, uh, I, I think ultimately his, his legacy is still going to be those first five

Van Halen albums and, uh, a couple of YouTube clips that prove that, you know, in the 80s, he was doing some some really interesting kind of avant garde bass soloing. I think he was really pushing a lot of the boundaries of of noise generating bass solos that not a lot of people were seeing in the pop, heavy metal world. And this is all illuminated in your 1,000-word piece? Well, that piece is actually speculative. The 1,000-word piece was actually a large... It's about how good a bassist Michael Anthony had been had the union lost the Civil War. That piece is actually speculative. It's, I think, my favorite thing I'm going to hear today.

So the back story is that I wrote a thousand-word piece about how Lars Ulrich is the defining member of Metallica. And really what that sparked was Jackson commenting on that piece about how no one should listen to what I'm saying anyway, because I feel that Michael Anthony is a good bass player. Look, your case lost a great deal of its strength with that reveal about Lars Ulrich, I have to say. Jackson, I'm being told by Jesse that there is no 1,000 word defense of Michael Anthony, his life and works. Who's lying to me? Why did, why was I told that there, that this thing existed? There is no doubt in my mind that Jesse has a thousand words that he could type this very moment and submit within the hour if prompted. That is true.

But I don't believe that such an essay has actually been composed yet. Certainly not on my podcast. such an essay has actually been composed yet. Certainly not on my podcast. Jackson, why don't you just let Jesse have his opinion that you disagree with? People like what they like. Why do you care? People do like what they like.

I merely wish that this argument be put to bed. He can hold his nonsense opinion all he wants in his own head. I just don't want to hear about it anymore. he wants in his own head. I just don't want to hear about it anymore. I would rather move on and, uh, and discuss, uh, you know,

um, how, uh, uh, what, what's the Isley brothers record you're constantly going on about? Uh, that would be between the sheets.

How between the sheets is, uh, secretly, you know, the most influential record of all time. Cause that's a territory we haven't explored yet. And I think that it's worth going into. Well,

I don't, I don't need you guys to turn this into your podcast. It's still my podcast. Yes, of course. I think John Darnielle and I will be hosting the Between the Sheets podcast. That's correct. It's destiny. Jesse, why does this matter to you? In your friendship with Jackson, why do you want to convince him of this?

Originally, it didn't matter so much. The big thing was that he was the original aggressor. So I had proffered a Michael Anthony joke. He had came back with another joke. He then said Michael Anthony was not a good bass player. I had said, hey, I think he's a good bass player. And then he actually had come at me about three or four times prompting me saying, your opinion is dumb. None of this matters. And after that third time he came back at me, I decided that I had to go on the full offensive. And it was more so just a revenge plot of forcing him into the light that, you know, music sometimes isn't subjective. So I heard everything I need to. I'm going to go into my tour bus to consider my verdict.

I'll be back in a moment with my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jackson, how are you feeling about your chances today? I think I feel OK. I haven't been called a monster once for suggesting that Michael Anthony is anything short of a genius. So I think I'm doing okay. Jesse, how about you? How do you feel? I feel pretty strongly here, Jesse. My opinion was fully backed up by the guest expert. I think beyond a shadow of a doubt, we have empirical evidence proving the bass playing ability of Michael Anthony. Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that

listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I.

It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. We are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

So there aren't a lot of geniuses in the world. And of those very few geniuses in the world, very, very, very few of them are bass players. Right. Because no offense, bass players. But a lot of the job is to go bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb. And I think that in my own experience in music, which in practice has largely been in orchestral music, even I know the double basses in an orchestra are kind of like, yeah, we get it. We know our job. We just got to lay down the floor because you got to have a strong floor in order to,

I can't continue this metaphor, dance crazy, like all the soloists get to do. That's the job. And even among those bass players who really are artistically incredibly capable, oftentimes it's not their job to show off and play all the notes. And what's more, Michael Anthony is, I've heard a lot about him and we'll never know. As Roland Barthes said, the author is dead. Michael Anthony still lives. I'm glad to say. But who he is as a person and what happened to him in Van Halen

and why they're not a band anymore remains a mystery to me. And while I've heard some bad things about him, some good things about him, and I hear his hot sauce is great for two pie holes, ultimately, the guy was in Van Halen. two pie holes. Ultimately, the guy was in Van Halen. My guess is, if I had to guess, that Michael Anthony is probably more okay with Jackson's assessment of him than Jesse Robb would believe. He's probably okay with not being a superstar, genius guy played in a huge band a definitive band left a mark that sounded like this don't don't don't don't he's still killing it with chicken foot and as a hot sauce empire i bet he's fine i bet he's fine i don't know that he needs Jesse Robb's defense. I also think that John Darnielle is quite right that in the context of Van Halen, Michael

Anthony performed and contributed to genius, which is enough of a legacy for anyone on this earth. And so I rule in favor of Jackson. Jesse, unfortunately, I could not rule in your favor, because even though I do think contextually, as John Darnielle explained, that Michael Anthony was something of a genius, the fact is you failed your case,

your judge, and yourself in two different ways. You overplayed your hand by claiming a kind of super genius in order to get back at your friend rather than just letting him have his smirky snark and moving on with your life and liking what you like. And second of all, there was a promise made of a 1,000 word defense of the super genius of Michael Anthony that I now learn does not even exist. It's only a rough draft in your mind. And so as punishment to you, I assign you to write not a 1,000-word, but a 5,000-word essay on the super genius of Michael Anthony that we will publish on MaximumFun.org if indeed you are able to do it. He is nodding. You know what, Jesse Robb, 3,333 words is sufficient because

that's one half of 6,666 and that's the neighbor of the beast. Then you two will discuss it no further. Those are the damages that I assigned to you, Jesse. And I look forward to reading your defense and ascension of Michael Anthony, bass player, United States of America. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jesse, how do you feel? I feel like I was railroaded a little bit here. I, you know, personally, I had never promised that the piece had existed. That was evidence that Jackson had put out that I had written that piece. I had always, you know,

personally said that it was a speculative piece. And I also feel like, you know, I had backed up my case pretty well. Right, it's a piece that exists in a universe where Elon Musk became president. Sure. And where the Hyperloop has taken me from San Francisco to Los Angeles in the blink of an eye. So you feel railroaded. Completely.

But you're willing to do what you have to do, right? Well, I mean, I've got words 0 to 3,339 drafted. I mean, the 1,000-word edit was already cut down, so I think I've got a head start. Jackson, how do you feel? I feel swell. I have no more to add to that. John Darnielle, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.

Always a pleasure to talk about Van Halen. John Darnielle, his band the Mountain Goats have a brand new record. It's called Goths. He's also the author of a brand new novel that's called Universal Harvester. Thanks so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast, Jesse and Jackson. harvester. Thanks so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast, Jesse and Jackson. Another great case in the books are thanks to expert witness John Darnielle, still sitting here with us. Perhaps he'll lend us a hand in swift justice. I have a passion for justice. We want to thank Adam Capibara, Mike Kennedy, and Chris Reaney for naming this week's episode,

Might As Well Judge. If you'd like to name a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We put out the call for submissions there. You can follow us on Twitter, at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJHO. And check out the Maximum Fund subreddit, MaximumFund.reddit.com, to chat about this episode. This week's episode recorded in Minnesota, at Minnesota Public Radio by Corey Schreppel.

Our producer, Jennifer Marmer. Jesse, if I can just say one quick thanks. I want to say thank you to Josh Sato of Seattle, Washington, for the joke Neighbor of the Beast. He made that joke when we were in high school together, and I've been stealing it ever since. Thank you, Josh. Now let's get to Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment. Adam M asks, is it okay to continue to sing the wrong lyrics to a song, even when you've been corrected? John Darnielle, what's your opinion? Yes. I say no. Absolutely,

yes. It's fine to really sing whatever lyrics you want to any song it's fine i my feeling is that if you don't know the words of the song sing meow meow meow instead that's also that's also a good solution i mean uh in an ideal world when a person gets the lyrics wrong it will always be by thinking that somebody said meow all right expert witness is correct i am wrong you can sing whatever you like meow meow meow ch Cheryl W. says, My friend and I can't agree if the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are heroes or superheroes.

John Darnielle. Really hoping the question was going to be heroes or villains. I really liked that universe. They keep eating our pizzas. I think they're just heroes. I think to be a superhero, you have to get a sort of totemic hero status.

I think only the truly hardcore can state what the individual powers of the TMNTs are. They have no powers, do they? I bet they do. I mean, Michelangelo's a party dude, but I wouldn't characterize that as a... Raphael is cool, but rude. Right, that's the thing. They have personality traits in place of superpowers. Yeah.

And that's not enough to qualify as a superhero. You got to put on a funny suit and you got to have a code name that isn't your own name. That's right. And by the way, it's right there in the title,

Heroes on the Half Shell. Yes, not superheroes on the half shell. This is the sound of a gavel. Meow, meow, meow. Judge John Hodren rules. That's it for this week's episode. Our thanks again to John Darnielle.

Buy his record, buy his book. You'll enjoy both. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. That's MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. Or email Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. No case is too small. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. MaximumFun.org. Comedy and culture. Case is too small. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.