Judge John Hodgman - Might As Well Judge (Rerun)

Episode Date: July 7, 2021

Big thanks to John Darnielle for his expertise on this week’s episode! The Mountain Goats' latest album "Dark in Here" is OUT NOW on Merge Records. Click HERE to read Jesse Raub’s 3,333 word essay about Michael Anthony!Thank you to Adam Capybara, Mike Kennedy, and Chris Rini for suggesting this week’s title! To suggest a title for a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, might as well judge. Jackson brings the case against his friend Jesse. They're at odds about the merits of Van Halen bassist Michael Anthony. Jesse insists Michael Anthony is an unsung genius. Jackson disagrees and wants to put this debate to rest. Who's right?

Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. So when we were first designing the label, my original hot sauce, we came up with this phrase on the front, which I thought was kind of witty. But unfortunately, places like Trader Joe's take a look at the bottle and they go, oh, no, I don't think we're going to go for that. So we're in the process of revamping that. End quote. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in.

Jackson, Jesse, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you God or whatever. I do. Or. I do. Or whatever I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite his merely competent bass playing? I do.

I do. Very well, Judge Hodgman. Jackson and Jesse, you may be seated. For an immediate summary judgments in one of yours favors, can either of you name the piece of culture I referenced? When I entered the courtroom, Jackson, can either of you name the piece of culture I referenced when I entered the courtroom? Jackson, why don't you guess first? I am going to guess that that is taken from an interview Michael Anthony gave about a brand of hot sauce that he is currently selling with a less than savory name.

Michael Anthony interview regarding a brand of hot sauce. I have entered it into the guest book. We'll see what happens. Jesse, not you, Bailiff Jesse Thorne, Litigant Jesse, whom we shall refer to by his first and last name in order to make this clear. This was Jackson's suggestion that he docks his friend on the podcast. So Jesse Robb, that is your last name, correct? That is correct. Yes. And your, just for the record, your social security number, please.

Sure. It's 555-555. Wait, hold on. Oh, I've heard about you. 1-900. Yep. Very good. Now it is your turn to guess. Jackson guessed that it was an interview with the bassist Michael Anthony, the subject of this particular dispute, regarding his brand of hot sauce. What is your guess? He is 100% correct. That is Michael Anthony speaking about his hot sauce, Michael Anthony speaking about his hot sauce, giving a quote about the name of the hot sauce.

I'm not 100% sure what the name is. I do know that it is unsavory and not fit to repeat on this family show, but he is looking to expand it. Well, all guesses are mostly right, but wrong enough that we can proceed. I knew that you would get it because you are both, well, one of you is a Michael Anthony aficionado, and the other one is a Michael Anthony anti-aficionado, and that's what this dispute is about. Whether or not Michael Anthony, the original bass player for the band Van Halen,

is a good or bad basis, or rather Jesse Robb, you would say a genius basis and Jackson, you would say not a genius. You are correct. Michael Anthony does have a hot sauce. This interview with Brian Reisman posted April 2, 2010 at 1am on his website,

attention deficit delirium is about that hot sauce. The hot sauce though, does not have a terrible name. The hot sauce is simply called Mad Anthony. So that's not so bad. But the motto that he chose, and neither of you can remember it, right? No. No, but I do actually, I would like to posit that

the motto in question is only on one of the three hot sauce varieties that he has produced. Who's talking right now? Who's talking right now? That is Jesse Robb. Jesse Robb? Yes. I know you want to come to the defend of your favorite bassist in the world. And you want to say as much as you possibly can about him and show off your knowledge.

But you can't go against me in my courtroom. I got Wikipedia up in front of me right now. I know exactly what you're talking about. It's only on the Matt Anthony analog hot sauce. It's not on his barbecue sauce. It's not on his mustard sauce. And the tagline, the motto that he chose,

knowing that this is a family-friendly podcast, grown-ups and mature children will be able to figure out the code that I'm using. The tagline motto is, Mad Anthony Hot Sauce, so hot you'll need two pie holes. You understand what I'm saying. Let's get down to the dispute then.

So Jackson, you have brought Jesse to this court because he thinks that Michael Anthony of Van Halen is a genius. You do not. Correct. That is absolutely correct. Jesse Robb, do you verify that you Van Halen is a genius. You do not. Correct. That is absolutely correct. Jesse Robb, do you verify that you believe Michael Anthony is a genius? I. Yes or no, sir? Yes. Yes.

Yes. I'll dig in. All right. The best bassist who ever lived? No. Who's the best bassist who ever lived? You must have in your trapper keeper a list of the greatest bassists of all time. Oh, boy.

That is a tricky one. I mean... Let's just say... Here, let's narrow it down. Top five? Sure. Top five. Top five bassists.

Man. See, now I'm on the spot. I was here with Michael Anthony on the brain. Yeah, that's fine. You're here to defend Michael Anthony. Yeah, I'm here to defend Michael Anthony. It's up to Jackson to say who is better than Michaelael anthony and jackson your answer would be everyone correct most people there are definitely uh bassists that are worse than michael anthony

um the late sid vicious comes to mind for example uh but that punk yes literally that punk come on that guy didn't know how to play bass before his first before they recorded that album exactly ah i would say that i would say that he is one of the few bass players who are worse than damning with no praise will you say michael anthony is the worst living bassist no i would not say that um i would say that he is a competent bassist. I would say that like many, you know, known professional musicians, he is, you know, already that puts him in the top 10% of musicians, period.

Because he's a professional musician. Exactly. He's a professional, known musician, and therefore, therefore he's better than me. I would, I'm perfectly happy saying that. I understand. And how often does Jesse bring this up such that you felt the need to bring him to court? Well, an activity that we regularly engage in when we are in the same city and hanging out is listening to records and spouting trivia and nonsense opinions about those records. We both love the music of Van Halen, and every time Van Halen comes on the stereo, Jesse attempts to convince me

that Michael Anthony is actually an unsung genius and does the thing where he's like, I don't know, listen to this part, this part right here. Then shuts me up. I have to listen very intently for a half a second worth of uh of phil uh that is supposed to convince me that he is you know as good or better than people like uh mark sandman or flea or something like that not only does jesse talk to you about it every time it comes up but he has written a 1 000 word article I have it on authority here.

Jesse's a part-time music writer. He's written a 1,000 word article about the genius of Michael Anthony. He says he has, yes. And if I rule in your favor, Jackson, he's going to print it out and shred it and never publish it. He doesn't need to. If I rule in Jesse's favor,

we're going to publish it on the Judge John Hodgman page at MaximumFun.org. And I'm going to social media the heck out of it i see become the most famous 1000 word article about michael anthony that's ever been published very good as much as i want to do that jesse i don't know enough about base basing i guess you would call it uh-huh to really be able to determine whether or not your proposition is correct. So, Jesse Robb, we have an expert witness here in the courtroom, a friend of the fake Internet court of Judge John Hodgman and bail of Jesse Thorne. Would you please bring the expert witness in and introduce him? Absolutely. He's not only an acclaimed novelist with a brilliant new book called Universal Harvester,

you also know him as the lead singer, frontman, and sometimes totality of the band the Mountain Goats, the court's leading expert on heavy metal music, Mr. John Darnielle. Thank you, Bailiff Thorne. Thank you, Your Honor. Guest expert, John Darnielle, nice to have you back in the courtroom. So good to be here. So good to be here. You are an expert in heavy metal. You previously consulted with the court on the topic of death metal. That's right.

A dude wanted to get his girlfriend to listen to death metal, something that has never happened in the history of time before it happened on our court. Is Van Halen, though, heavy metal? No, right? Well, it would depend on who you talk to. I'm talking to you. According to me, they're in the tradition. Not now.

You don't hear them and go, that's heavy metal. But it's a term that they would have been saddled with a little when they were playing. Chuck Eddy, who's a critic of Real Insight, he has a much broader definition of heavy metal than I do. He dates back to Blue Cheer and even pre that he thinks it's more of an attitude. Really after the mid 80s metal changes so much that it'd be hard to call Van Halen heavy metal. But hard rock you know is

part of the heavy metal tradition. Is there a difference between heavy metal as a genre and metal as a genre? So that's a good question. I don't know. I mean metal really is just short for heavy metal. But at the same time, I think it does feel like a more inclusive term. It's like you can have metal that isn't that heavy, but it's still identifiably metal.

But I think probably it's more of an abbreviation. It's the same thing with hip hop. There's a lot of hop that isn't particularly hip. Yeah, I could never figure when I was just 89, 88 getting into rap. I was like, well, rap or hiphop, are these loaded and freighted terms? Like, which one do you use? So most rappers I know use the term rap instead of hip-hop. Rap is something you listen to.

Hip-hop is something you live. That's right. Hip-hop is the five elements of which rap is one. Getting back to heavy metal. So, all right. So Van Halen is in the tradition of heavy metal. No discussion of Van Halen can ever occur without people suddenly starting to talk about rap music. They're inextricably tied together.

One always leads to the other. But before we go down that road, you mentioned that after the 80s, heavy metal diverged and went into a different place. Where did it go and why did it go there? It just got a lot heavier starting around 86, maybe 84. I mean, Bay Area, Thrash, Metallica, all the guys who were playing up there and the Southern California people like Possessed made it so much heavier. And it also got very far away from blues-based roots. Van Halen is just building on blues rock. That's what they're doing.

They're making it faster and cooler, you know, but they're not doing what a band like Possessed is doing, which is saying we don't want to play any blues riffs at all. We want wicked, evil sounding stuff. Now, original lead singer,

and I believe now current lead singer again, Diamond, David Lee Roth. Diamond Dave. Pushed it all into a kind of vaudeville, glammy, hair metal vein that a lot of of bands imitated and that became very popular for a long time until i kind of think and this is why van halen always leads to hip-hop to you know hip-hop and and r&b started to take over popular music in the 90s and now metal has become much more genre but for the children who are listening out there driving around in your cars,

the Van Halen, very, very, very popular band throughout the 80s. The four members, Diamond David Lee Roth, Eddie Van Halen. What's the other Van Halen, John? Alex. Alex Van Halen, the one whose name everyone forgets. Coincidentally, also the name of the band, Van Halen's. And then Michael Anthony, the bass player. Tell us a little bit about Michael Anthony, John. The rhythm section of Van Halen is sort of the, I won't say the secret weapon, but it is, you know, Van Halen's the name of the band. It should be about guitar solos.

But that combo of Michael Anthony and Alex Van Halen is actually the sound of the band, as far as I'm concerned. The guitar is great. The riffs are great. Dave gives a lot of personality. But that rhythm section, especially around the time of 1984, that's the unmistakable sound of the band, right?

Is the Alex Van Halen hitting the ride super hard, and the eighth notes, the bass booing it up, you know. No, the sound of the band was Panama! No, no, what you're hearing when you hear Panama is the ride symbol in the bass.

Without that rhythm section, they're really nothing. If I close my eyes and listen to Van Halen, I hear their signature sound, which is that flag snapping in the wind as David Lee Roth crosses from one side of the stage to the other. Yeah, that's right. That flag snapping sound of David Lee Roth. The flag snapping sound of Diamond Dave. Well, when you say secret weapon, I'm willing to accept secret is the term best applied to that weapon. I do think if you'd taken any other rhythm section of the genre in that day and told them to do what Michael Anthony and Alex Van Halen do, you would not have a band that was even half as good.

So you are saying, if I may, that Michael Anthony, as bassist for this band, is instrumental to the Van Halen sound. Would you raise your hand and swear to that and make the Hail Satan sign while you're doing it? Yes, I would, but I would also modify that by saying it's not just as a bassist, but as a backing vocalist, which is a super important craft that people minimize, but actually it's a harder job to do than lead

because anybody can stand there and yell if they have charisma. They don't even have to hit notes. But a backing vocalist has a very specific job to do that is a more musical job than the lead vocalist, generally speaking. And he's really good at it. Him and Dave are sort of the John Doe and Xene of the hard rock scene. It's very distinctive and good harmonies. Deep cuts for some of the Judge John Hodgman listeners, I'm sure. But, well, it's interesting you say that because in my Michael Anthony research, you know, he basically parted with the band by the late 90s. He wasn't playing on many of their

recorded tracks, stopped touring with them in 2004. But even between that time, he was still singing backup, even when he wasn't playing bass. He's good at it. He's a really good good backing singer one last question before we get back uh to the case and then i hope you will chime in uh as much as you like john darneil um you're a guy who's familiar with the history of dudes sitting around listening to bands and having a fight over whether the bassist is good or bad yes is this dispute between Jesse Robb and Jackson about Michael Anthony's bass playing something you've never heard before or a common fight among Van Halenites?

I haven't heard this particular look at it, but what it does sound to me like is actually more a discussion about the aesthetics of music, about whether you're judging somebody on their playing, on their chops, or on what they contribute to a track. And those are different criteria.

Because you can otherwise, obviously, Yngwie Malmsteen is the best guitarist of the genre. The end. He's the fastest. He plays the most. He plays all over everything. He never stops. Agreed. I would characterize him as the greatest musician of the 20th century. But the thing is, but Yngwie is not, you know, if you take Michael Denner from Merciful Fate,

well, he's not an Yngwie, but I would argue that he contributes more to his band's songs, or Hank Sherman, than Yngwie does to his bands, because Yngwie is just playing as fast as he can all over everything. Michael Anthony is not doing that. He's playing eighth notes, but they always fit really well. I don't think a Roger Patterson style of bass or Jaco Pastorius or whoever is really going to serve a Van Halen song the way that Michael Anthony holding down a rigid four is going to do.

Larry Graham. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's the thing. Funk is a good point of contact in talking about this. It's not how much you play or how fast you play. It's do you land on the one squarely every time, or were you doing that before there were computer programs to move your beats over? And, of course, Michael Anthony was doing that before there were computers to make him play good.

Yes, although it's my understanding also that people who were good at tape editing could make a bad bassist seem good if there was enough money back in the day. Well, let's get a time machine and make a lot of money. Let's take a quick break. We'll hear more about Michael Anthony with expert witness John Darnielle in just a minute. Schmanners. Noun. Definition. Rules of etiquette designed not to judge others, but rather to guide ourselves through everyday social situations. Hello, Internet. I'm your husband host, Travis McElroy. And I'm your wife host, Teresa McElroy.

Every week on Schmanners, we take a look at a topic that has to do with society or manners. We talk about the history of it. We take a look at a topic that has to do with society or manners. We talk about the history of it. We take a look at how it applies to everyday life. And we take some of your questions. And sometimes we do a biography about a really cool person that had an impact on how we view etiquette. So join us every Friday and listen to Schmanners on MaximumFun.org or wherever podcasts are found. Manners Schmanners. Get it? Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Jackson and Jesse disagree about whether or not Michael Anthony of Van Halen is an unsung genius. John Darnielle is here as expert witness. Why does Jesse think Michael Anthony's so great? Let's go back into the courtroom to find out. All right, Jesse, Rob, you heard John Darnielle talking about your boyfriend, Michael Anthony. Here's my summation of what I understood from John Darnielle. Dude may not play the most notes, but he's an integral part of the band and the secret weapon of the band sound. Do you agree with that assessment or would you go further to say that Michael Anthony is even

better than John Narniel says? My original position would be exactly lined up with him. And then as Jackson kept prodding me more and more, and I kept going further down the Michael Anthony rabbit hole, I would say that Michael Anthony is more and more and more of a prestigious bass soloist as well. So in your dude hang fights, you were prompted to do even more research and your esteem has only grown. It is true.

All right. Jackson, you've heard he's no Yngwie Malmsteen of the bass, right? You've heard he doesn't have the chops. What else do you want to lay on this poor dude? Well, I would like to clarify one thing, which is that this this case is exclusively based on Michael Anthony's bass playing, not on his overall position in the band. I would agree completely with John Darnielle that background singing is an underrated art form. And Michael Anthony does it amazingly. He also brings a lot of charisma to the band. He was a very fun person to watch.

Stop buttering up my expert witness. Of course, everyone agrees with John Darnielle. Nicest guy in rock and roll. Everyone with John Darnielle. Nicest guy in rock and roll. Everyone loves John Darnielle. Oh, boy. All right. You just want to limit this to bass only. Yes, yes.

We're going to carve out a discussion for bass. Yes. And so you're saying when you listen to Michael Anthony play bass, you're like, that's no good. It's not that it's no good. It's fine. It does the job. It's acceptable. no good it's just it's fine it does the job um it's acceptable um the the thing is is that uh the kind of frenetic uh you know pop heavy metal whatever you want to call van halen as it is

is inherently i think a genre of excess um it is something where there's no such thing as tactful playing if you can play all the notes you can play all the notes, you should play all the notes. And I would, uh, argue that, uh, somebody like, uh, Rush, for example, um, Geddy Lee, uh, is a bass player who plays all the notes when it's appropriate to play all the notes, but in these sections where it's appropriate to play all the notes and play frenetic and fast and do these huge runs and things that Michael Anthony instead sticks to playing the straight eighth notes, which again, it keeps the beat. He's right on the one. It's fine. It's good. But to say that he is this accomplished virtuoso, I think is pushing it a little bit. Jesse, Rob, accomplished virtuoso,

will you own those words? I will. So when you analyze the music of Van Halen, I think we often like to, you know, look to songs like Hot for Teacher and put them in that category of, you know, near speed metal. Wait a minute, do they have other songs? It is true, Judge Hodgman. But I think the other thing that a lot of people forget is that Diamond Dave often talks about in his autobiography, Crazy from the Heat. He was, you know, born and raised on a lot of the early blues rock and has a lot of R&B influence as well. You don't need to quote that book. Just tell me what page you're quoting. I'll know it. Go ahead. I apologize. He was raised on blues rock. A lot of blues rock, a lot of R&B. His favorite band of all time was Grand Funk Railroad, and that's all he wanted Van Halen to be. So if you look at a lot of their covers, and most of Van Halen is a lot of covers as well, a lot of them, you know, you've got Dancing in the Street.

You've got a lot of these early R&B covers. A lot of the rhythm section are playing these sort of R&B style rhythm pieces. So you don't really have a rhythm section trying to play a speed metal style kind of music. You have, you know, the rhythm section trying to hold the backbeat. You've got Eddie playing everything up front. You've got Dave doing his singing thing. But I would really actually try to liken Van Halen structuring the band a lot more like how Led Zeppelin did. No one's going to argue that John Paul Jones was a poor bass player. John Paul Jones was an amazing bass player. But you listen to half the Led Zeppelin songs,

and the dude barely moved off the quarter note for like 90 percent of the track and everyone was fine with it. Once Michael Anthony does the same thing, everybody starts to, you know, make fun of him because the dude had a Jack Daniels bass. Do you think? Go ahead, John Darneil. I want to say the claim was made a moment ago that metal is necessarily a genre of excess and that playing more is more metal. But the band I wanted to cite, John Paul Jones is a good site, but also Geezer Butler. I don't think anybody can minimize Geezer Butler's presence as a heavy metal bassist.

He's one of the founding authors of the genre, right? He's a Black Sabbath bassist. And he is not playing as much as he can. It's a lot like with Sly and Robbie, the reggae rhythm section. It's not how's bassist. And he is not playing as much as he can. It's a lot like with Sly and Robbie, the reggae rhythm section. It's not how much you play. It's just what you contribute. It's how hard you hold it down.

And Geezer Butler's a monster, right? And Black Sabbath, this is the one band no one can argue about their primacy in heavy metal. Black Sabbath is ground zero, right? And so if we listen to them, we know that it's not about how much you play. We know that it's more about what you play and what it adds to the track. Jackson, you just got smacked down by John Darnielle. I enjoyed it. I would say, I'll narrow my focus then a little bit,

and I would say that specifically hair metal, specifically this particular genre of heavy metal from 1977 when Van Halen's first album came out until I think it was like 1991 when like Cherry Pie came out. I think that was like the last great hair metal single. Solve for great. For certain degrees of great. All right.

But I would say that that particular subgenre of rock and roll, heavy metal, whatever you want to call it, that kind of sunset strip, primarily Los Angeles 1980s brand of music is inherently a genre of access. Yeah, but Jackson, we've already established in this court that Van Halen was a transitional band between R&B heavy metal and the later hair metal that it inspired. You and I have done enough Van Halen research to understand that. The question isn't whether Michael Anthony should be playing more notes because obviously he played the exact right number of notes to make Van Halen one of the most successful and definitive bands of its time until he was gradually edged out of the band and replaced now with Eddie Van Halen's son, Wolfgang Van Halen. But whether Michael Anthony should have been playing more notes, question is, could he have been? Jesse. Yes. Rob. If we took Michael Anthony out of Van Halen and put him in another band,

let's say a band I made up called chicken foot. You did not make up chicken foot. No. Oh, that's right. That's because Michael Anthony and Sammy Hagar made up that band. Sure. When Van Halen didn't want to have anything to do with them anymore.

Cause they were off making hot sauce and tequila brands all the time instead of rocking that's right come at me sammy hagar i can drive 55 it's the law but this is where the litigant has a very strong case uh is that if you take michael anthony and you put him in early metallica when cliff burton was the bassist or you put him in atheist uh when roger patterson was alive it'd be a joke he can't he can't those guys do, right? So if you consider music an absolute scale of competence, right, then yeah, those guys are better bassists. They can do more, and they could probably do what he did, right? But they didn't, right? That's the thing. It's not how much you can do. It's whether the thing you do is considered useful by a lot of people, right?

So, but yeah, in terms of absolute proficiency, I really doubt he could do the kind of Jaco Pastorius all up and down the neck stuff that those guys can do. I don't think he's bad, but I don't think he's- And he did have a base shaped like a Jack Daniels bottle. Did Jaco Pastorius have that? No, he did not. Though he's rumored to have had plenty of Jack Daniels bottles. Let's talk about what Michael Anthony can do. You guys both submitted some evidence. Talking about bass is not as much fun as listening to bass.

So we have some evidence submitted here by Jackson. We're going to go with his evidence first. So Jackson, tell me what I'm going to hear with clip number one. So here is the studio version of Running with the Devil, probably one of Van Halen's best known songs and an excellent example of this straight ahead, right on the beat bass playing that Michael Anthony does. All right, Bailiff Jesse Thorne, spin the disc. you know what jesse rob uh-huh i could do that this is very true um boom boom boom boom boom boom boom is that genius jesse rob uh you know i'm biding my time i've got my own evidence uh submitted okay so you

declined to defend it well i think that is a perfect example exactly of, I mean, if we want to look at, you know, the same kind of situation, like I was explaining before, you know, writing the beat, holding the tempo. I mean, it's exactly what the song needed exactly when the song needed it. Do we need anything else from the bass at that point in time? I think it's one of the most iconic bass lines that any song has ever had. You hear that kick on and what does everybody do? They crack a beer and they rev up the Pontiac GTO. I was definitely nodding my head along to that. One of the most iconic bass lines that any song has ever had. It's a substantial claim.

Yeah, that went from, I'm not even going to talk about this, to this is literally the greatest thing in history in the blink of an eye the thing is i mean this is where this is where my he's good in the track argument is like if you pull up the first bass line i thought of listening to that because i was listening also to the tone which i think is pretty poor right i have to say i think it's a ted templeman production i don't know what they're thinking with that bass tone i mean obviously come on templemanman! Who am I to contest success, right? But at the same time

you think of... Let's do a Frankie Valli track called The Night, right? It's a Northern Soul classic. And the opening bass line, which I think is probably the Wrecking Crew from Motown, it's just so gorgeous and accomplished, and you compare it to... Do the Frankie Valli bass line, John Darnielle.

Can you do it? This is like... Oh, John Darnielle, the human bass box. The night is like... I think it's been used in a couple of movies. It's like this absolute masterpiece of Northern Soul. So, Jackson, you've made your case with this, picking a rather dull bass line.

Yes. Or I should say rudimentary bass line, but my head was nodding a little bit to it. Your head was nodding, yes. What are you trying to prove here with this evidence? So I have a couple of things to put this in context, which is that, yes, that is, you know, the thing that the song

kind of needs in order to start it off. And, you know, one could argue that excess playing would detract from this. An argument that Jesse Robb has made with me is that Eddie Van Halen is a kind of a musical tyrant and prevents, he kind of held Michael Anthony back from displaying, you know, his virtuosity. And there's another example of a band. Well, I'm liking this band more and more,

but a bunch of creeps in this band. So you go on Jackson. So a, a situation similar to Eddie Van Halen as the tyrant holding someone back is the Who, in which Pete Townsend reigned in virtuoso John Entwistle on the bass. And in the track, John Entwistle would play these straight quarter notes. But when live, I would direct anybody to listen to the live tracks off of the Who compilation, The Kids Are All Right. And you hear these very simple parts just exploding and expanding into these giant fills that I, you know, would sit in my bedroom and attempt to play over and over and over again. But in the meantime...

He turns and couldn't hold him back on stage. Exactly, exactly. So what does Michael Anthony do on stage well just take a listen I've got a clip of him from playing Running with the Devil live from 1983 same song live why don't you spin it for us Bailiff Jesse Thorne Well, that was different because he went, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

So that was different. Well, no, to be fair, John, he did that, and then he went, boom, boom, ba be fair, John, he did that, and then he went, I want to know what is the argument that Running with the Devil, a Van Halen track generally accepted by most of us who like the band as one of the good ones, the Running with the Devil would be better if the bass line was a This would not be a better Running with the Devil. I want to hear the Seinfeld mix. It would be a very different Running with the Devil,

and we would not be talking about it right now. You should have heard, before they put his kid in, for a while they were touring with Victor Wooten. Oh, it was good. It was spectacular. Everybody loved it. Well, how does he compare now to the current bassist for Van Halen, Wolfgang

Van Halen, the son of Eddie Van Halen? Yeah, I would say that you can make a direct A-B comparison of somebody inserting some more color notes into that live setting to kind of liven it up a little bit from specifically, there is a Van Halen live album from 2013

and as has been mentioned like all tyrants uh eddie van halen has uh incorporated his adult children into the regime uh where he's brought in wolfgang van halen and he uh skillfully replicates the same feel of michael anthony's original part but he puts in these uh fun accent notes and also does a spectacular little fill at the end of the intro that is absent from the original studio recording. I have a recording of this as well, if you would care to listen. All right. Hand that to the bailiff. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, play this tape. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Woo! That does not improve the song.

That is not serving the song. But John Darnielle, he's playing more notes. I know he is, and it's not adding anything of value to the song. I would contend that in a live setting, it adds something of value to the song. Maybe in a live setting, sure. You can argue that when a person plays more, the audience pops for that. I get that. But musically, if we're talking musically, I don't think you can make the case for that part.

You can make it a stagecraft. You can make the case for that. But John Darnielle, I am not an expert of any metal. you can make it you can stagecraft you can make the case for that but uh but john darneil i am not an expert of any metal and i say as a naif uh respectfully uh as a dum-dum i kind of enjoyed that one a little bit more did you on the first one yeah but i don't know but i don't i've never heard the song before that's the only that's the only part of the song i've ever heard and we'll ever hear i might finish it now that i've heard wolfgang's take on it but even if i it is of course the maximum of this courtroom that people like what they like but even if i judge john

hodgman happened to like wolfgang van halen a little bit more jackson with respect i don't think it proves your point right that uh michael Michael Anthony couldn't do what Wolfgang was doing in there. Just because Eddie Van Halen kept Michael Anthony down doesn't mean that he exercised the same tyranny with his own son. Indeed, I would imagine he was probably a little bit more indulgent of Wolfgang once he kicked Michael Anthony to the curb to install his own son in the band Van Halen. All right. I enjoyed that evidence, but I want to give Jesse Robb a chance to present his evidence now. What am I going to listen to here, Jesse?

So one of the biggest problems that I think that you do run into trying to listen for Michael Anthony's bass parts is that Eddie Van Halen did have a lot of creative control over the production. So it's often turned down really low in the mix. So what I have done is I didn't want him around. This is also very true. That's why he was allowed to do backup vocals, but not allowed to record the bass parts for later tracks in those later recordings. tracks in those later recordings. So I took a couple of clips from some songs and I turned the bass EQ up a little bit higher. So it's a few kind of 10 second clips. It starts out with Where Have All The Good Times Gone, Push Comes to Shove, Light Up the Sky, and Romeo Delight. None of these are Van Halen songs that anybody has really ever heard of, and that's kind of where Michael Anthony has a time to shine.

None of them are really hits. Nobody really cares about these tracks, and it's kind of where I think he had a chance to sneak a little bit more out. All right, let's listen to this bass-boosted medley of the least successful Van Halen songs featuring Michael Anthony on Deep Cuts. Bailiff, Jesse Thorne, Spin the Wheels. The things they used to do

Never had no money And they always told the truth Daddy didn't need no little toys Mommy didn't need no little toys We'll be right back. All right. That was deep cuts from Michael Anthony. John Darnielle, what's your assessment of Jesse Robb's evidence? So it's good evidence. Romeo's

Delight especially is one that I would actually, back in the day when people were talking about Van Halen, they would cite that as one of the more musical things because among my peer group, the only question was does Van Halen suck or not, right? That was our discussion we would have. And you'd look at them and go, well, you know,

their attitude is sort of not, doesn't have any cultural currency in our peer group, but they can play, and they have a very specific sound that they got, right? And I think, yeah, he's a better bassist than he generally gets a chance to be. But again, I don't think how much you flex your chops is a mark of your value to the band.

I think how much is what you're playing part of the band's sound is the bigger question. There's one thing that I think I need to be illuminated on before I get into my tour bus that is my traveling chambers and sit in my traveling hot tub and consider this. And I'm going to leave this to you, Jesse. Michael Anthony, he was in the biggest band of the 80s. He was edged out and not even allowed to play bass on their later albums and now was replaced by Eddie Van Halen's son and now he just makes hot sauce. What happened to this guy what's the story what am

i missing about michael anthony as a person that is that has allowed his career to take this this turn well so he he is you're forgetting he's also in uh chicken foot and uh is is also a full-time member of the uh all right i've heard everything i need to in order to make what's the book on michael anthony you guys is he okay misunderstood or all too well understood as a human being jesse i think how bad should i feel for him i i oh man i think he landed all right he's in another super group featuring you know a virtuoso guitar player and an extremely competent drummer and uh another singer who can do whatever he wants uh and he's making his money he's got his hot sauce fortune as well um but uh i i think ultimately his legacy is still going to be those first five Van Halen albums and a couple of YouTube clips that prove that, you know, in the 80s, he was doing some really interesting kind of avant-garde bass soloing.

I think he was really pushing a lot of the boundaries of noise generating bass solos that not a lot of people were seeing in the pop, heavy metal world. And this is all illuminated in your 1,000-word piece? Well, that piece is actually speculative. The 1,000-word piece was actually a large... It's about how good a bassist Michael Anthony had been had the union lost the Civil War. This is actually speculative.

It's, I think, my favorite thing I'm going to hear today. So the back story is that I wrote a thousand-word piece about how Lars Ulrich is the defining member of Metallica, and really what that sparked was Jackson commenting on that piece about how no one should listen to what I'm saying anyway because I feel that Michael Anthony is a good bass player. Look, your case lost a great deal of its strength with that reveal about Lars Ulrich, I have to say. Jackson, I'm being told by Jesse that there is no 1,000 word defense of Michael Anthony,

his life and works. Who's lying to me? Why did, why was I told that there, that this thing existed? There is no doubt in my mind that Jesse has a thousand words that he could type this very moment and submit within the hour if prompted. That is true. But I don't believe that such an essay has actually been composed yet. Certainly not on my podcast. essay has actually been composed yet. Certainly not on my podcast. Jackson, why don't you just let Jesse have his opinion that you disagree with?

People like what they like. Why do you care? People do like what they like. I merely wish that this argument be put to bed. He can hold his nonsense opinion all he wants in his own head. I just don't want to hear about it anymore. wants in his own head. I just don't want to hear about it anymore. I would rather move on and discuss

how... What's the Isley Brothers record you're constantly going on about? That would be Between the Sheets. How Between the Sheets is secretly the most influential record of all time, because that's a territory we haven't explored yet, and I think that it's worth going into.

Well, I don't need you guys to turn this into your podcast. It's still my podcast. Yes, of course. I think John Darnielle and I will be hosting the Between the Sheets podcast. That's correct. It's destiny. Jesse, why does this matter to you? In your friendship with Jackson, why do you want to convince him of this? Originally, it didn't matter so much.

The big thing was that he was the original aggressor. So I had proffered a Michael Anthony joke. He had came back with another joke. He then said Michael Anthony was not a good bass player. I had said, hey, I think he's a good bass player. And then he actually had come at me about three or four times, uh, prompting me saying, uh, your opinion is dumb. Uh, none of this matters. And after that, a third time he, he came back at me, I decided that I had to go on the full offensive. Um, and it was more so just a, a, a revenge plot of, uh, forcing him into the light that, uh, uh, you know, uh, music,, music sometimes isn't subjective. So I heard everything I need to.

I'm going to go into my tour bus to consider my verdict. I'll be back in a moment with my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the court. Jackson, how are you feeling about your chances today? I think I feel okay. I haven't been called a monster once for suggesting that Michael Anthony is anything short of a genius. So I think I'm doing okay. Jesse, how about you? How do you feel? I feel pretty strongly here, Jesse. My opinion was fully backed up by the guest expert. I think beyond a shadow of a doubt, we have empirical evidence proving the bass playing ability of Michael Anthony.

Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second. Welcome back to Fireside Chat on KMAX. With me in studio to take your calls is the dopest duo on the West Coast, Oliver Wong and Morgan Rhodes. Go ahead, caller. duo on the west coast oliver wong and morgan rhodes go ahead caller hey uh i'm looking for a music podcast that's insightful and thoughtful but like also helps me discover artists and albums that i've never heard of yeah man sounds like you need to listen to heat rocks every week myself and i'm morgan rhodes and my co-host here oliver wong talk to influential guests about a canonical album that has changed their lives guests like mo like Moby, Open Mike Eagle, talk about albums by Prince, Joni Mitchell, and so much more.

Yo, what's that show called again? He rocks deep dives into hot records. Every Thursday on Maximum Fun. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. So there aren't a lot of geniuses in the world. And of those very few geniuses in the world, very, very, very few of them are bass players. Right? Because, no offense, bass players, but a lot of the job is to go bom, bom, bom, bom, bom.

And I think that in my own experience in music, which in practice has largely been in orchestral music, even I know the double basses in an orchestra are kind of like, yeah, we get it. We know our job. We just got to lay down the floor because you got to have a strong floor in order to, I can't continue this metaphor, dance crazy, like all the soloists get to do. That's the job. And even among those bass players who really are artistically incredibly capable, oftentimes it's not their job to show off and play all the notes. And what's more, Michael Anthony is, I've heard a lot about him and we'll never know. As Roland Barthes said, the author is dead. Michael Anthony still lives, I'm glad to say.

But who he is as a person and what happened to him in Van Halen and why they're not a band anymore remains a mystery to me. And while I've heard some bad things about him, some good things about him, and I hear his hot sauce is great for two pie holes, ultimately, the guy was in Van Halen. My guess is, if I had to guess, that Michael Anthony is probably more okay with Jackson's assessment of him than Jesse Robb would believe. He's probably okay with not being a superstar super genius guy played

in a huge band a definitive band left a mark that sounded like this don't don't don't don't he's still killing it with chicken foot and as a hot sauce empire i bet he's fine i bet he's fine. I don't know that he needs Jesse Robb's defense. I also think that John Darnielle is quite right that in the context of Van Halen, Michael Anthony performed and contributed to genius, which is enough of a legacy for anyone on this earth. for anyone on this earth. And so I rule in favor of Jackson. Jesse, unfortunately, I could not rule in your favor because even though I do think contextually, as John Darnielle explained,

that Michael Anthony was something of a genius, the fact is you failed your case, your judge, and yourself in two different ways. You overplayed your hand by claiming a kind of super genius in order to get back at your friend rather than just letting him have his smirky snark and moving on with your life and liking what you like. And second of all, there was a promise made of a 1,000 word defense of the super genius of Michael Anthony that I now learn does not even exist. It's only a rough draft in your mind. but a 5,000 word essay on the super genius of Michael Anthony that we will publish on maximumfund.org if indeed you are able to do it. He is nodding. You know what, Jesse Robb,

3,333 words is sufficient because that's one half of 6,666 and that's the neighbor of the beast. 6666. And that's the neighbor of the beast. Then you two will discuss it no further. Those are the damages that I assign to you, Jesse. And I look forward to reading your defense and ascension of Michael Anthony, bass player, United States of America. This is the sound of a gavel.

Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jesse, how do you feel? I feel like I was railroaded a little bit here. I, you know, personally, I had never promised that the piece had existed. That was evidence that Jackson had put out that I had written that piece. I had always, you know, personally said that it was a speculative piece. So you feel railroaded? Completely. But you're willing to do what you have to do, right? Well, I mean, I've got words zero to 3,339 drafted. I mean, the 1,000 word edit was already cut down, so I think I've got a head start. Jackson, how do you feel? I feel swell. I have no more to add to that.

John Darnielle, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. Always a pleasure to talk about Van Halen. Thanks so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast, Jesse and Jackson. Another great case in the books are thanks to expert witness John Darnielle, still sitting here with us. Perhaps he'll lend us a hand in swift justice. I have a passion for justice. Before we get to that, we want to thank Adam Capibara, Mike Kennedy, and Chris Reaney for naming this week's episode, Might As Well Judge. If you'd like to name a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we put out the call for submissions there. You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets. Hashtag JJHO. And check out the Maximum Fund subreddit, MaximumFund.Reddit.com to chat about this episode. This week's episode recorded in Minnesota at Minnesota Public Radio by Corey Schreppel. Our producer, Jennifer Marmer. Jesse, if I can just say one quick thanks. I want to say thank you to Josh Sato of Seattle, Washington, for the joke, Neighbor of the Beast.

He made that joke when we were in high school together, and I've been stealing it ever since. Thank you, Josh. Now let's get to Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment. Adam M. asks, is it okay to continue to sing the wrong lyrics to a song even when you've been corrected? John Darnielle, what's your opinion? Yes.

I say no. Absolutely yes. It's fine to really sing whatever lyrics you want to any song. It's fine. My feeling is that if you don't know the words to the song, sing meow, meow, meow instead. That's the best way to do it. That's also a good solution. I mean, in an ideal world, when a person gets the lyrics wrong, it will always be by thinking that somebody said meow.

All right. Expert witness is correct. I am wrong. You can sing whatever you like. Meow, meow, meow. Cheryl W. says, my friend and I can't agree if the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are heroes or superheroes. John Darnielle. Really hoping the question was going to be heroes or villains. I really liked that universe. They keep eating our pizzas. I think they're just heroes. I think to be a superhero, you have to get a sort of totemic hero status.

I think they're just heroes. I think to be a superhero, you have to get a sort of totemic hero status. I think only the truly hardcore can state what the individual powers of the TMNTs are. They have no powers, do they? I'll bet they do. I mean, Michelangelo's a party dude, but I wouldn't characterize that as a... Raphael is cool, but rude. Right, that's the thing. They have personality traits in place of superpowers.

Yeah. And that's not enough to qualify as a superhero. You got to put on a funny suit and you got to have a code name that isn't your own name. That's right. And by the way,

it's right there in the title, Heroes on the Half Shell. Yes, not superheroes on the half shell. This is the sound of a gavel. Meow, meow, meow. Judge John Hodren rules. That's it for this week's episode.

Our thanks again to John Darnielle. Buy his record. Buy his book. You'll enjoy both. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. That's MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. Or email Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. No case is too small.

We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. MaximumFun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Audience supported.