Judge John Hodgman - Nature Versus Nerd-ture

Episode Date: June 14, 2012

Alex and Kristina are a couple of admittedly nerdy people, and they disagree about where to send their future children for summer camp -- to nerd camp to indulge in whatever geeky pursuits they desire, or to a typical summer camp to play Capture the Flag.

This week on the Judge John Hodgman podcast, nature versus nerd-ture. Alex and Christina are a married couple and are academics who both have pursued admittedly somewhat nerdy careers. They're happy with their lot in life, but they disagree on how to handle potential nerdiness in their future children. Should they be allowed to geek out at academic summer camps or should they be forced to socialize at camps that focus on regular camp stuff like canoeing and capture the flag? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Excuse me, ladies. You may remember me as the judge who judged a fake car talk case last week with underwear on my head. My name is John Hodgman from Brookline, Massachusetts, State Bird the Mosquito.

As you may have heard, I am recently a crowned Class B dungeon judge. So if any of you would like to play Dungeons and Judging today, please speak now or forever hold your peace. Jesse, swear the bin. Alex, Christina, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? Yes, I totally do. Yes, I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he summers in a submarine at the bottom of the sea? Yes. Yes. Very well.

Judge Hodgman? Technically, it is an octopus's garden, Jesse. That I observe through my giant submarine plate glass window while playing the pipe organ. Thank you very much for swearing yourselves in. What are your names? Alex and Christina. Is that correct? Yes.

All right. Now, as you know, I will offer a quick summary judgment to the first person to name the piece of culture that I referenced in my opening monologue. I got nothing on that one, John. I have no idea. Really?

Okay. Oh, I know. I know you know, nerd. Have we just been outnerded? Well, I think it actually speaks to a big issue here about what nerdism is, because Jesse is a comedy nerd, and it sounds like you guys are math and science nerds. Jesse, comedy nerd, Bailiff Jesse, what was the reference?

Oh, that was Sam Levine as the radio announcer in Wet Hot American Summer. Very close, Jesse, but not quite cigar worthy. That was actually Gabriel Millman playing the caped boy in Wet Hot American Summer. Sam Levine, of course, was never on camera. Oh, no, he was on camera. Excuse me.

Or was he? No, I don't think he was on camera. I think he did the voice, though. Didn't he do the voice for that? He did. He did do the voice. Hang on a second. We got to go down this nerd rat hole.

He is uncredited as the voice of Artie. Right. Uncredited as the voice of Artie. But there is a character playing Artie, is there not? I mean, Artie is on some film. There's a kid playing Artie, yeah. But he turns away from the camera when he says that, and it's Sam Levine's voice.

Okay, gotcha. Now I understand. Boy, that's a good one for a pub quiz. Yeah, absolutely. In the future, a nerd pub quiz. Jesse, gotcha. Now I understand. Boy, that's a good one for a pub quiz. Yeah, absolutely. For the future of nerd pub quiz. Jesse, which is your favorite scene? Oh, guys, sorry, I forgot all about you. Alex and Christina, hello.

Okay, so the case is being brought by Alex, right? Yes. Okay, so what's your position, sir? Well, so Christina and I were discussing our heretofore hypothetical children. Um, and we're discussing what would happen to them when they reached kind of early teen teenage life. Uh, and Christina suggested that because, uh, they might be nerds being raised by us, we should send them away to sports camp so they can learn normal social skills with normal

people who, um, aren't raised by two raging nerds. And I completely disagree with this, Tennant. I think that because they will be raised by nerds, they really need kind of more remedial social skill training. And we shouldn't send them off to, you know, nerd camp where they can be surrounded by other nerds and can kind of learn social skills slowly at a natural pace and be, you know, middle of the ladder nerds versus bottom of the ladder sports geeks. Well, now, wait a minute. You do not have children currently?

No, we have no children. You know that I do not rule on hypothetical cases. I know that all of your cases are deeply grounded in fact, yes. You're making light of this, but I don't rule on hypothetical cases because there's nothing at stake. You guys, I mean, I don't need you guys to prove that you're nerds because you're making light of this but I don't rule on hypothetical cases because there's nothing at stake I don't need you guys to prove that you're nerds because you're already thinking about what your kids are going to do in young teen years but there is no real stake I need for you guys to either give up this case

or make an agreement now here in court that you will have one or more children within three years otherwise there's no point you will have one or more children within three years. Wow. Otherwise, there's no point. Barring technical difficulties, I assume. Can we agree to that right away now? All right.

Yeah, sure. You know what? Just feel the way that I'm not asking you to conceive a child right now, okay? That's true. That would be difficult. We are in different cities right now, so that would take some work, or at least some high FedEx bills. Why do you not live together? We do, but we have not.

So we lived in different cities for the first four years of our marriage. Which two cities? San Francisco and D.C., or D.C. and New York. And why? Professional reasons? Yes. What do you do for a living, Alex? I was a grad student at Stanford and Janelia Farm in D.C., and now I'm a postdoc at Cold Spring Harbor outside New York.

In what field? What kind of nerd are you? Neuroscience. I used to work on fruit flies, and now I work on mice. Moving up. Moving up. Larger. Bigger and better. Strangely, they both have the same size brain. That's actually true.

I know. That's why I said it. Oh, I'm sorry. All right, Christina, what kind of nerd are you? I am an assistant professor at Rutgers in geophysics. Okay, geophysics nerd. Yes, a geophysics nerd. Earthquake nerd. No earthquakes. Near-surface geophysics. Okay. Geophysics nerd. Yes, a geophysics nerd. Earthquake nerd.

No earthquakes. Near-surface geophysics. So I look at the top 100 meters of the Earth using remote methods. I basically take MRIs of the Earth. And what are you discovering? Mole men? I'm looking for water. Okay.

And monitoring contaminant remediation. So you're some kind of fancy-pants dowser with a degree? I get it. Exactly. Yes, yes. I have a dowsing rod. A really large dows remediation. So you're some kind of fancy pants dowser with a degree? I get it. Exactly. Yes, yes. I have a dowsing rod. A really large dowsing rod. Do you really? Yes.

Do you believe in dowsing? Does that have any scientific basis? Well, when I send electronic pulses into the subsurface and measure water back, I believe in that kind of dowsing rod. Yeah, but I'm talking about witchy dowsing. No, no, no. Not the stick with two prongs. Take a branch of you and walk over and you have a feeling. believe in that kind of dowsing rod yeah but i'm talking about witchy dowsing no no no not the stick with two prongs take a take a branch of you and walk over and you you have a feeling does that

does that have any scientific basis at all um i don't think so so you're both science nerds neuroscience and cold spring harbor you're you're developing monsters as a secret governmental facility in cold spring harbor, New York. Yes. And Christy, you are searching for magical water underneath the ground. Is that correct? Yes. All right, very well. Yes, Christina, actually.

I'm sorry, what did I say? Christy. I apologize. Sorry. So Christy, why don't you want your kids to go to Nerd Camp? Well, as Alex said, I think we have enough nerd in the both of us for one child. I want this child to grow up to be, you know, both a nice person and someone who is interested in the academics and someone who is also interested in sports. So when they, by the

time they finish high school, I want this child to have every opportunity available to them. So whatever they want to do, I want them to be able to go out and do that. Yeah, that sounds reasonable. You want them to be a nice person and also be interested in sports. Yes. Because those two things don't normally go together. You want them to be both in niceness and in the other field of liking sports. Well, I think that's what Alex thinks, actually, is that you can't be nice and be in sports.

But I think there are lots of nice people who are also good at sports. Your background, you would say, is more well-rounded than Alex's? You have more sports background than, would you say, Alex does? Yes, I have more sports background than Alex does but alex did grow up well-rounded he he went to high school in india oh sure there are no nerds in india that's for sure that's true uh i'm what does well-rounded mean to you obviously it means knowing something about science knowing something about sports and being raised in India. Well, and being able to talk to lots of people with varied interests. I see. And are you concerned that Alex does not have those skills currently? No, Alex is really good at talking. So where do you get this terrible anti-nerd bigotry that you

think that they can't speak to other people? What is the source of your anxiety about this? I want them, it's not that I think that nerds can't speak to other people in lots of fields, but I want my children to be comfortable doing that. And I think that a lot of nerds that I grew up with, that was more of a learned skill for them than something they were just naturally comfortable doing. And these were people in your school or in your family? People in my school. Okay. Alex, what's wrong with Christina's point of view? I think there's a telling comment in the idea that these social skills are learned. And I think that, you know, kids when they're growing up do learn social skills from the people around them. And I just feel like when, you know, you go to sports camp, and I briefly went to one sports camp,

I feel like the social skills I was learning had much more to do with kind of bullying and hazing and generally being a jerk than the social skills I learned at nerd camp, which had more to do with just kind of being like excited and interested in everything that everyone around you was doing all the time. Enthusiasm, curiosity, collaboration. Right, right. Whereas at stereotypical sports camp, I feel like the skills you learn have more to do with kind of competition and adherence to the pecking order. So wait a minute. So did you go to a sports camp, that is to say, a camp dedicated to a specific sport? Or did you go to a generic archery swimming and humiliating other people camp?

So when I was really young, I went to kind of like your typical YMCA outdoors camp for a while. And I don't really remember that. Maybe that was critical for my development, but I don't have strong memories from it. What I do remember are two camps that I went to. Or maybe you fell off the rope. That is possible. You fell off the rope and blacked out, and you have no memory of it. Yeah, stayed underwater too long or something like that.

Or maybe during some post-hypnotic hazing, you were made to forget the whole thing. That's true. You just wonder why you have the letters YMCA branded across your genitals. Oh, that would be uncomfortable. I don't have a segue for that, but I can go back to what I was saying earlier. It's not your job to provide segues. It's your job to answer the questions.

Yes, sir. Yes, Your Honor. So when I was 11 or so, I went to a soccer camp at the college that is near where I grew up. And that was the sports camp I went to that I don't think I enjoyed at all and kind of found it very pecking order, dominated and kind of confidence. And what sport was that camp dedicated to? Soccer. No, no, I understand it was a soccer camp, but did you also play a sport at this camp? Oh, yes. Sorry, we played English football. Oh, I see. I still don't understand, but go on. Fair enough. Because as I have said, it's hard to call soccer a sport when

it is basically one ball away from the ancient non-sport of fast running back and forth. You were at this soccer camp and you didn't like it because why? I just didn't enjoy myself. I felt like I was constantly trying to sort out my place in the pecking order versus having fun and being interested in the people around me. But then after that, I went to a nerd camp for several years, and I had a great time at the nerd camp and both learned a lot and really liked

everybody around me and felt like you know I was getting a certain I don't know if I had this perspective at the time but certainly now I feel like I learned what social skills I have through interacting with people that I found kind of fundamentally interesting versus just people that I knew were kind of higher on the pecking order than I was. And so what were the best skills that you learned at Nerd Camp? I would say lounging around in a field all afternoon doing nothing, talking about whatever came to mind. Sure. Playing in mud puddles.

And at one point I remember playing Calvin ball. So that might count. So those three things. Yeah. Lounging, mud puddles, and then playing the made-up sport of calvin ball right for those of you who are so sad to have not ever read calvin and hobbes is a sport played by a lonely possibly psychotic child uh yeah yes sir i can see that point in which the in which the which he plays with the delusion of

a tiger that he has in his mind yes yes in which the rules uh in which the rules change with every play in order to favor only him yes yes okay essentially it is essentially the uh a definition of uh of uh psychopathy yes until he was medicated and started doing his homework yes that's right and then they and then they burned and they burned that uh that stuffed tiger and they made it and they made a movie out of it called the velveteen rabbit. Anyway. Alright. So you are, you know what, I now feel very comfortable ruling on this case, even though you are hypothetical parents,

because you are already thinking like parents in a very deep and real way in the sense that you are already using your children to try to correct the errors that you have made in your own life. Okay, Christina, what kind of camp do you want to send this child to then?

Do you have one in mind? Well, I want to send them to a normal camp. Not a specific sports-focused camp, but a camp where they learn to canoe and learn outdoor skills and go hiking and run away from bears. That kind of camp. I see. Normal is what you mean to say. Normal camp, yes. A normal camp as opposed to an abnormal camp.

As opposed to an abnormal camp or a subject-specific camp. But wouldn't that also be a soccer camp? I'm confused by your question. Well, would a soccer camp, a subject-specific camp such as soccer, be considered an abnormal camp by you? I don't mind sending my kids to a soccer camp. The camp that I want to send them to would be an outdoor camp. Okay. So what is a normal camp? Normal camp would be somewhere where they learn how to canoe, where they learn how to identify trees and go on hikes, where they sleep in cabins with other

people their own age, where they do some sort of arts and crafts as well, and where at night they sit around a fire and sing camp songs. So essentially a camp in the movies. A camp in the movies, yes. A typical wilderness camp. Yes. Right.

But do you see what I'm getting at here? You call this a normal camp. And here's where my hackles honestly get raised. Yes. Right. But do you see what I'm getting at here? You call this a normal camp. And here's where my hackles honestly get raised. Yes. Because as much fun as I'll make of soccer, you know, I do not make fun of athletes. And I think sports are something that people really like sometimes. It's not my cup of tea. But I recognize that it is a passion for other people. And I believe that people should be able to enjoy their passions and take part in their passions, even if they are my own nerdy children.

You know, I have two human children whom I refer to solely as Hajmina and Hajmanilla to protect their privacy. And I am not a sportsman, you may be surprised to hear, as you listen to me wheeze asthmatically into the microphone. They wanted to undertake a lot about baseball. a situation where even though I don't care about baseball, he might begin to wonder why he is the only person who is able to name the 11 doctors who, and yet does not know anything about how to play baseball. So when he became interested in baseball, I encouraged it, I think out of the same impulse that you wish to encourage your hypothetical child, right? To allow them to be well-rounded, as you say, and socialized in the world that surrounds them and not feel stigmatized. Give them that experience.

And then I fully expected by the end of season one of Pee Wee Baseball that my son would have been completely traumatized out of it. And then we could just enjoy reading comic books together again for the rest of our lives. And then he would never grow up or leave me. But as a matter of fact, even though, even though he is visibly bored by the game and, and even though it frustrates him to no end, he, to my chagrin, does like it. And therefore, as annoying as it is for me to take him to the practices and the games,

as it might be, I think, for a normal father if their child basically, you know, as a normal father might feel if their child took an interest in, you know, Settlers of Catan and had to go to Settlers of Catan practice every Friday afternoon and every Saturday morning had a game that was for some reason played outside in the hot sun. Nonetheless, I endure it because it is my job as a father to allow my children to explore their own interests. And it's my own stupid fault for exposing him to this thing that I have no affinity for and don't particularly like myself that much, but it is my obligation to let him explore that. So that is all fine. Do you see what I'm saying? Yes. I have nothing, you know,

in the, in the nerd jock culture war, which, which is something that I observe every day in my life and think about every day in my life, I have no problem with sports per se. The jockism that I dislike is the philosophy that sports obsessions are normal and everything else is abnormal. And everything else is abnormal. So when you say, I'd like my kid to be well-rounded and to have a chance to explore other things, and especially to be socialized and be forced into situations where they have to deal with other kids and learn how to do that, I am with you 100%. When you say, I don't think a single subject camp is really what I want for my child, I say, I'm with you 100% but when you say a single subject camp about sports counts as normal but a single subject

camp say about I don't know what geophysics would be abnormal that would be abnormal I think but what if your child God forbid takes after her mother

and wants to be a geophysicist and wants to go to geology camp, wants to go to rock camp? Is that abnormal? I think that's a very highly charged term that I think you ought to think about. No, it's true. I think that I misspoke in using the word normal, and I didn't realize it's such a controversial word. What I really meant was that I want our kids to go to stereotypical camp. What you think of when you think of a stereotypical camp. Sure.

I don't mind if they go to... Just in the same way many hypothetical parents want, and many, unfortunately, many actual parents want their children to have a stereotypically happy childhood. That is to say, the childhood that you imagine for them from what you see in the movies or on television. Yes. You know, the kind of camp that you describe is an anomaly historically. That emerges out of a very middle upper class 19th, late 19th century at the earliest summering tradition. And it's only, you know, in the 20th century, the 21st century, and then a very sort of narrow profile of human beings who had that kind of experience of going to a Northeastern or, or a Western or Midwestern style lake and canoeing around on it and shooting things and making s'mores and having color wars.

And then, you know, casually torturing people in the woods, various hazing activities. Without the hazing and the torturing, that's the kind of camp I went to. I know. I don't know how much hazing there is aside from the typical teenage cruelty to one another. Where did you go to camp?

It sounds lovely. I grew up in Canada, so I went to camp just outside of Vancouver. Oh, well, see, I bet it was beautiful, right? It was beautiful, and we canoed and we walked around in the woods and we learned to name ferns and we made s'mores. Like what name, what kind of names did you give to the ferns? Like Alan and Carl and Bob? Yeah.

What kind of different ferns did you, did you name? Oh gosh. You're asking, we learned deer ferns. We learned sword ferns? Licorice ferns? Whoa. I can't remember. This was a while ago, and there's not very many different fern types. No, I like it.

It's clearly something that has affected your life and affected your view of the world. And I think that that's wonderful that you're able to retain your knowledge of sword ferns and licorice ferns. That's awesome. And I can also see why you too are more than a hypothetical parent because while your husband is attempting to repair his life choices by forcing his children to do something else, you are attempting to relive your childhood through your children that don't even exist yet. Do you feel intimidated by the fact that you might have a male or two male children and they have, you have a special obligation to make sure that they are

masculine and that maybe sending them off to neuroscience camp with your nerd husband or whatever is going to, uh, to, to demasculate them in some way, emasculate them in some way? No, no. I think I would have as strong opinions if I thought we were going to have girls. Okay. So would you send your children to this camp in Vancouver that you went to? Does it still exist or did it close under the cloud of a scandal? Yes, I would, in fact. Now, Alex, do you have a camp in mind to send your two male children to?

Yeah, I like the camp that I went to, although it has a terrible name. What is it? You can buzz market your camps. I can buzz market my camps? It's summertime. I'm sure enrollment is closed. You're talking about Camp Wheezy Fat, right? Camp Wheezy Fat, not so smart, yes.

Camp Lounge Around? Yes, yes, Camp Coloring Book. No, the camp that I went to actually had a worse name than all of these, which was the Center for Talented Youth. Not that you're not talented. I know. I kind of talked it up there.

I'm sorry. Not that you're clearly a talented dude. But I just love the ideas of these guys coming up with this camp film. Let's call it the Center for Talented Youth. That'll make kids popular. No, I was like, that'll steal'll kids popular that'll no i was like that'll that'll steal some parents money let's call it the center for very special children let's call it the special camp for the best kids yeah the best kids the better than your

neighbors camp for boys whose parents whose parents don't want them to fail in life uh so you went for the center for Talented Youth? Yes, yes. And despite its terrible name, I had a really good time. And what did you do there? Let me ask you what you didn't do. Did you canoe? I did not canoe.

Did you identify ferns? No. Do you know what a licorice fern is, sir? No, although I bet I could tell by taste. Did you sleep in cabins? No, we slept on college dorms. Which college? Uh, Hamilton College, Skidmore College, and there was another one, but I can't remember.

Okay. Did you do archery? No. Did you have color wars with the other nerd camp across the lake? No, no. We were the only nerd camp in town. By color wars, I do not mean race wars. You understand that, right? No, no, we had neither kind of color war. Let me ask you this question. Did you have any campfires? Nope. Did you have any sing-alongs? There was a talent show at one point.

Oh, really? Did the youths who go for the Center of Talented Youth feel comfortable showing off their individual skills to each other? Was that real? Yeah, but it's mostly like, look at what a good violinist I am, et cetera, et cetera. That's right. Did you guys do magic tricks? Did you show off your individual skills for each other? Yeah, I'm sure someone did do magic tricks. But did you sing along with each other?

No. In kind of a cathartic way, no. Did you at least do any sort of hippie, new game, trust-building exercises with each other? Not aside from Calvin Ball. Okay. Was there any organized activities whatsoever, or did you just sort of make your own little lead figurine painting clubs? Yeah, exactly.

Ursula K. Le Guin discussion groups and that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. So I think after we got done doing computer science for 13-year-olds in the morning, there was an afternoon activity period where people could and did play sports, et cetera, et cetera, or do music or whatever they wanted to. All voluntary. Yes, all voluntary and rotating. So you weren't stuck doing one thing.

And you would feel comfortable sending your two male children to this camp? Yes, I feel like we could raise them with even our rudimentary social skills to be king of nerd camp. Okay, I think I have all the information I need to make my decision. I'm going to go into my tent chambers and sit at my camp desk and make my decision. I'm going to light a little kerosene lantern and drink a little bug juice and make my decision.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. How are you feeling about your chances in the case, Alex? You know, John's exit there makes me a little nervous because he referenced many of the tropes of sports camps and outdoors camps and none of the tropes of nerd camp. And so I feel like that's a little hint as to what he's going to judge. So I don't feel great about it, honestly. Christina, how are you feeling?

Nervous. Why is that? Tell me why. Well, I'm just, we're going to have to stand by whatever he decides. And this is a big decision that's going to change our hypothetical children's life. Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about this. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. I feel this tension very keenly, as you can tell, because like both of you, I am a parent,

with the slight difference that I am an actual parent of actual human beings. And, you know, I feel very keen. I feel this, and I'm also a nerd. And I feel very keenly this debate because, indeed, I have such a knee-jerk, as you've heard, my knee-jerking reaction, negative reaction, to anything that smacks of sports normal,

other pastimes abnormal. I feel like that's an incredibly destructive force in our society that is myopic on the point of sports to suggest that enjoying sports, even with the incredible hyperbolic passion that a nerd might enjoy comic books, is somehow normal, whereas interest in math or science or comedy or music or whatever else, with the exact same sort of single-minded passion is somehow unwholesome and weird. That, to me, is a false division.

And any nerd who looked at it with scientific distance would appreciate that there is no reason for it. So when you said, Christina, that you wanted your kid to go to a normal camp, that bothered me. And then when you said, I didn't mean normal, I meant stereotypical, that bothered me even more. Because

the reality is that when you have these hypothetical children and they gradually become real and solid and actual and start taking up 3D space, which, by the way, guys, is how babies are made. When you have these babies,

you will realize that you cannot repair your own psyche by forcing choices onto them that you wish you had made yourself, nor can you become young again by forcing your children to relive the things that you enjoyed the most in your life, such as the naming of ferns. All you can do is to give them tools that will allow them to better live in the world and to be attentive to the things that they are interested in whether you like those things or not and give them access to those things to the best of your ability and then hope for the best and so here's the thing you'll be surprised given what i just said that i find in Yes, that's right, nerd. Eat it.

I'm so hopeful. Because here's why. While both are parental sins, replicating happiness versus repairing error, the less malignant is replicating happiness. is replicating happiness. Now, to be fair, I mean, it clearly, Alex, you are also attempting to replicate happiness and that your camp experience, the one you, when you got past the trauma of soccer, your camp experience that you found playing psychotic child ball was, was happy for you. And I get that you're looking for the same thing. And right. The other, the other aspect of it, though, is this. And I certainly reject the idea that Christina's camp is normal. But as someone who grew up going to nerd camps, gifted child programs, sorry, I'm losing my mind. But like nerdy camps. I went to a concert

camp. I went to a gifted child program one summer. I took extra classes during the summer. And then I also went to one of these so-called normal camps with the archery and the mosquitoes and the riflery and the fear for one's very life and all that stuff. It was traumatic when I went to it, but the fact is it's far more memorable to me. I dealt with this secret shame for a long time. And what I realized, and I didn't realize until literally two years ago when I was thinking about how great it would be to be able to raise children without any expectation of sports of any kind. And then my friend David Reese and I were talking about sports one time. And, and he was like, the thing about people who have played sports that always impresses me is that they are not afraid

of conflict, because they have rehearsed conflict in their lives, you know, throughout their lives, over and over and over again, in a kind of ritualized conflict called games. And they appreciate that conflict is something that happens, that you can get the better of or the worst of, and then you can shrug it off, and the world doesn't end just because you fight with someone else. I literally almost broke down in tears when

I heard this, because the reality is the one unhappiness in my life is my utter fear of conflict. You notice I never bring a dispute to this court. I judge it. So do you see what I'm saying? And I think it's largely because I was disdainful even as a child of team sports. Now, honestly, if you want to, and I lacked all ritualized conflict in my life because I chose not, I just chose not to run as it were. Do you know what I mean? And so I don't think that this kind of ritualized conflict has to happen in the, in the guise of sports necessarily, nor does it have to be ritualized conflict per se. and lose themselves in a larger project, whether that is a game of baseball or a camp-style color war, not race war, or to some degree a youth orchestra.

All of those things are really, really valuable. valuable. And while I do think that a lot of the antisocial stereotypes that surround nerds are just that, stereotypes, I do feel like your baseline as a parent, even a hypothetical one, should be to give them the broadest possible array of enthusiasms to choose and not immediately shuttle them into a single subject, whether that single subject is Calvin ball or soccer. Do you see what I mean? And I think what Christina described in this particular camp is a broadening. So that's my ruling. As you can tell, I think a lot about it while talking.

So I apologize for my long-windedness. But I do find in the favor of Camp Vancouver over Camp Skidmore, and I want these kids to be able to name some ferns. If you had come up with one thing as cool as naming a sword fern, Alex, it may have been different. But for now, this is the sound of a gavel. © transcript Emily Beynon Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Christina, you came out on tap. How are you feeling?

Christina, you came out on top. How are you feeling? I'm feeling good. Although, you know, I think what the judge said at the very end was quite wise. And I think that, I don't know, we'll have to play this to our children once they're born. Alex, Christina, thanks for joining us on Judge Sean Hodgman. Thank you. Want to have a sing-along? Right now I'm a little busy making this friendship bracelet,

so no, I don't think so. Well, we have to clear the docket. We can't get around that, so why don't we take a look at what we've got here. Yeah, so let's hike up to the field, to the docket clearing Quonset Hut. That is a yurt. You know that thing is haunted, don't you? Here's something from a licensed attorney who posted a comment in our comments at MaximumFun.org

about the Chevy case. Oh, yeah. He or she writes, in this podcast, you asked if someone who knows something about law could address the enforceability of the party's contract in a court of law. Your honor may be pleased to know that the contract is valid and enforceable. The first week of law school definition of a contract is an offer, an acceptance, and something given in exchange by both sides. In this case, the offer was the purchase of the car in exchange for debt forgiveness. Hannah got a car. Patrick got debt forgiveness. Valid contract. Nevertheless, I do take exception

to the court's ruling. Both sides should have lost on the grounds that they each owned a Camaro and neither knew about the song Bitchin' Camaro. Car proprietis es postulo CEO Carmen Socius per sum car. I can tell that this guy's a lawyer because it goes on for a long time. Also, I just got a bill for

$500. I'm very grateful that he wrote in and confirmed that that was indeed a legal contract and that Hannah owned that Camaro by law as well as by the unwritten code of boyfriend-girlfriend. So that's great. And I also think that he should not worry too much about my ruling because, if you will recall, I did rule that they should get rid of that Camaro. That I no longer serviced either of them anymore and they should get something else. And I agree with you.

When I learned that they did not know that song, I was so upset. But I was able to finally get over it because the ruling was tweeted by the official Dead Milkman Twitter account. And whether that is owned and operated by indeed one of the official Dead Milkmen Twitter account. And whether that is owned and operated by, indeed, one of the original Dead Milkmen, I bet you it is, or not, I'm totally thrilled that they are now attuned

to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Welcome aboard, Dead Milkmen. Judge Hodgman, did you hear that one of our listeners, Alice, actually took your performance of Bitchin' Camaro and set it to music? Do you know what? I did hear that. Do you know why? The Dead Milkman Twitter account retweeted that, too.

Let's close out this episode with that. Well, we have to clear out the docket right now, but we'll play the song that Alice recorded because it is just tremendous. Stay tuned. But first, another document to be cleared. Here's something from Elise. Who is responsible for cleaning the lint trap in the dryer? The owners of the clothes that created the lint or the person who is using the dryer after the lint creator? Assume in this scenario that the lint trap is visible when you are removing slash placing clothes in the dryer.

trap is visible when you are removing slash placing clothes in the dryer. My friend says the lint trap needs to be cleaned before each use for safety's sake. The contents of the lint trap are clean. The cleaning of the lint trap is a trivial act. If shared users clean the lint trap before using the dryer, everyone ends up cleaning the lint trap a fair number of times. For these reasons, it is indisputable that the proper time for checking and cleaning the lint trap is before using the dryer. I disagree. Who's right, Elise or her friend? Well, first of all, Elise, you're very confusing. Because she chose to set out the entire case for her opposition and then just say, I disagree. Yeah, not only that, but you said, for these reasons, it is indisputable that the proper

time for checking and cleaning the lint trap is before using the dryer. And then you disputed it. I'm very confused. Here's what I'm going to say. Your friend is absolutely correct. That lint trap needs to be clean. I don't care who does it. Otherwise, you're going to have a fire. And not only is it going to burn all your clothes, it's going to burn all your neighbors and maybe you. Clean that lint trap. You know what would make me feel better?

If we heard that Bitchin' Camaro song that Alice recorded. Is it time? Or do we have anything we need to discuss before we go? I just need to make sure that everybody submits a case at MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho. It is easy. It is fun. You can come be on our show and become a minor internet celebrity. Extremely, extremely minor.

It does seem, look, don't be afraid. It may seem like I yell at you people during the case. But rest assured, when we're no longer on the podcast air, I still yell at you. But it's fun time yelling. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho. And hey, let's take a listen to this amazing recording that Alice made. Thanks, Alice. Thank you, Alice. Oh, hey, Jesse, what's happening? Oh, I don't know. Rumor around town says you think you might be heading down to the shore.

Yeah, I think I'm going down to the shore. What are you going to do down there? I don't know. Play some video games? Buy some Def Leppard t-shirts? Okay, but the important thing now, Jesse, is that you asked me what kind of justice I'm going to dispense.

What kind of justice are you going to dispense? Oh, you know, just some... Podcast justice! Podcast justice! I judge all my neighbors. Podcast justice, podcast justice, now it's in the AV club papers. Started doing podcast justice with no law degree in hand. Now I judge people in the USA and also in Portland. Podcast justice, podcast justice, no-spot marketing.

Podcast justice, podcast justice, just to swear them in. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at gosuperego.com. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts about the show, join the conversation on our forum at forum.maximumfund.org and our Facebook group at facebook.com slash Judge John Hodgman.

We'll see you online and next time right here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.