Judge John Hodgman - Neverlandmark Case

Episode Date: August 19, 2020

Jessie files suit against her husband, Ryan. During a past relationship, Ryan’s ex-girlfriend made him a Peter Pan themed painting and he still has it. Jessie wants to get rid of the painting, but Ryan can’t bring himself to do it. Who's right? Who's wrong?Thank you to Alex Butschli for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, follow Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, never landmark case. Jesse files suit against her husband, Ryan. During a past relationship, Ryan's ex-girlfriend made him a Peter Pan themed painting, and he still has it. Jesse wants to get rid of the painting, but Ryan can't bring himself to do it. Who's right?

Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. We all know Peter Pan. Peter Pan is a story of a young woman who gets ensnared in a relationship with an adulterous narcissist, a guy who literally commands his partner to be his mother, but it's okay because the young woman thinks her love can fix him. But the narcissist cannot be fixed, and he eventually leaves Wendy for a younger woman who happens to be Wendy's own daughter. Bailiff Jesse Thorne,

swear them in. Jesse, Ryan, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's more of a Smee? Yes. Absolutely. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Oh. I just want to be clear. Judge Hodgman, I picked Smee only because Smee has the funniest name, not because you're Smee You know what? Harsh but fair I mean, you know you look at me, you look at my dumb

mustache and beard you can't see it on the podcast, but you can probably hear I'd like to be Hook No, I'm Smee Ugh Right, bailiff Jesse Thorne Alright I'd like to be Hook. No, I'm Smee. Right. Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

All right. Jesse and Ryan, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can you name the source of the piece of arguably popular culture? I'm just going to say you're never going to get it. Not this time. Never, never going to get it. You're never going to get it. Not this time. Never, never going to get it. You're never going to get it. Not this time. I could see a situation where Smee has finally stopped taking the guff from Captain Hook. And then he goes down into his little his little bunk and his little hammock and listens to En Vogue. I mean, he loves En Vogue.

I can see a situation where I hijack this podcast and transform it into an En Vogue tribute podcast. I could also see that situation. And, Jesse, you'd be welcome to do so. But first, we have to administer justice in this, the very last episode of Judge John Hodgman, before it is turned into an En Vogue podcast. One of the litigants is named Jesse. Jesse Nonthorne, what is your guess? Well, I'm honestly really relieved that I have no idea what it is. And I'm even more relieved that Ryan's face tells me he has no idea what it is.

But I'm guessing that it is the BBC productionc production peter pan goes wrong oh what's peter pan goes wrong it is a delightful comedy performance from the cornley polytechnic society the same people who did the play that goes wrong on broadway oh yes i saw that it's their christmas panto it's it is honestly a really wonderful 40 minutes. Listen to Ryan dropping the British theater lingo. Their Christmas panto. That's me. He does that. Ryan non-gazling.

That's me. And by the way, that's your joke. Before we even started rolling here, we were having a heck of a time. We're going to have such a fun conversation in a minute after I bring it down for a while, in a second. We're going to have a great time. We're already having a great time. That fun conversation we were having before we were rolling was lost to time.

It has gone off to Neverland. Can never be recovered. But it was fun. We were chatting. I'm here, by the way, everyone, in Maine, still, up here at WERU in Orland, Maine, 89.9 in Blue Hill, 99.9 in Bangor, and all across the world at WERU.org. Through the glass across from me is summertime producer Joel Mann.

Joel? John, every time you come to Maine, it's a sunnier day for us. Thank you. What did you do with the real Joel? Why are you saying sentences all of a sudden? Okay, we'll get back to you. He's been replaced like a changeling in a fairy tale much like Peter Pan. Oh, right. Ryan non-Gosling, what is your guess?

I'm going to go with a young adult novel called Peter Pan and Scarlet. No, you're never going to get it. You're talking about the official sequel to Peter Pan? Peter Pan and Scarlet? Yes. That was licensed? That was officially allowed by the Great Ormond Street Hospital? Which holds the copyright to Peter Pan?

It was willed to them by J.M. Barrie? And they commissioned... Ooh, I wish I had this. I really was reading the Wikipedia page this morning. What's the name of the author of that book, Ryan Nongosling? Do you know? Oh, Peter Pan Scarlet? I don't.

I do not know who wrote that one. It's Geraldine McCrawn, I want to say. I can't. M-C, capital C-A-U-G-H-R-E-A-N. McCroggan or McCrawn? What a name. A young adult author who wrote the official sequel to Peter Pan, according to the J.M. Barry estate.

And what was that about? Do you know? I have no idea. I have not read it. You haven't? No. Because you love Peter Pan, right? I stop at Peter and the Starcatcher.

Peter and the Starcatcher is as far as past canon as I go got it okay we'll talk about your love for peter pan but all guesses are wrong by the way this is a first a judge john hodgman yeah it's a judge john hodgman first jesse non-thorne and ryan non-cosling You know why? Wow. The quote is me. Ooh. I have done an obscure cultural reference to things I have said on Judge John Hodgman before, but this time, it's just something that I wrote this morning. Well.

I meant to get a cultural reference together, but then I went down this thought hole and I ended up writing this long thing about peter pan i'm like this is too long i gotta fudge this and put it into the cultural reference because i'm we are going to have a fun talk about peter pan but i did go into that wikipedia page and learn all those things that i just told you about the great Ormond Street Hospital and blah, blah, blah. But I also had to revisit Peter Pan, both the memory of the movie and the book and the play. And boy, oh boy, oh boy, there was a lot of Peter Pan that I had blocked out.

There is a lot of Peter Pan in the world, but there's a lot of problematic Peter Pan in the world. Amen. Amen. I mean, Peter Pan is a creep. I didn't realize that. I didn't think about it until later. But it's like, yeah, he's likable because he doesn't grow up, which is actually a tragedy. And to J.M. Barrie's credit, you're going to have to listen to this for a little bit.

You guys ready? You sitting down? Strapped in. We're here. to listen to this for a little bit you guys ready you're sitting down strapped in we we're here so to jm barry's credit he he does portray peter's inability to grow up his immortality it's sort of fun but it's really dark it's this immortal arrested adolescence that is a true the true and tragic horror show that it would be when you meet someone who has never grown up, right? Peter is full of fun tricks and sayings and he's lively, but like any child, he's also emotionally small-minded, completely self-obsessed, dangerously chaotic, and completely, until he's got to go save Wendy,

like basically completely unaware of the danger that he poses to his so-called friends. I mean, frankly, Peter Pan is only rivaled in his bland sociopathy by one other character in literature and that is ferris bueller who is the worst person wow this is a pre-verdict verdict this is a verdict on peter pan and then we're going to talk about your painting your peter pan painting also we need to point out peter pan the book play the famous disney movie it's racist oh it's so racist right it's racist it's racist af now this is a family-friendly podcast but i feel like the kids who listen to this need to know what i mean when i say racist AF that means racist as friends as in the tv show friends which wasn't actively racist it only didn't acknowledge the existence of non-white people until Aisha Tyler showed up

for a long long time there's no people of color on that friend no one in New York City except maybe some background actors. So Peter Pan, both play, book, and movie, is not passively racist. It is actively peddling in ignorant, gross stereotypes about Native Americans that were not a product of their time. Because even in 1904, in reviews of the play and the book, it was recognized that the tribe of Indians in this story were composed entirely of incredibly offensive worn-out stereotypes and pulp literary cliches. They weren't even stereotypes about real people. They were

stereotypes about stereotypes, this pulp literary cliches that J.M. Barrie had absorbed from Victorian-era boys' adventure books, in which the concept of a non-white, non-British empire other was so common and thoughtlessly accepted and cruel that Barrie couldn't even be bothered to keep his racist terms straight. And if you want to know what I mean by that, I'm not going to say it look up on the internet as I did this morning what the name of the quote-unquote tribe of the Indians is and you will be like your gob will be smacked it's a very offensive term that is usually used to describe another group of traditionally exoticized dehumanhumanized, and marginalized people.

So, yeah, we got to say this. I had to say this. I don't know how Disney got a pass on this for the movie, even till now, when they finally had to hide the Song of the South away in a hole. I do know why, because the racist dehumanizing of Native Americans was slash is more acceptable more recently than the racist dehumanizing of black people and until there's a podcast about the Native Americans and Peter Pan you just have to go and listen to Karina Longworth's six-part mini-series of her podcast about movies you remember this, that she did last November on Song of the South, which is an incredible investigation about how even the most liberally-minded white people casually accepted this stuff as okay. They just, they held their nose. If they saw it, they held their nose, kind of looked away, and then

came back to the stuff they liked. So, okay, thereesse and ryan we're gonna have a nice time today fun conversation about this painting of you ryan as peter pan is that right uh no i am certainly not uh portrayed as the main character in this piece it is a painting of peter pan You're more of a smee. It is a painting of the three darling children and Peter Pan in silhouette going across the moon with text from an actual book of all of my favorite parts of Peter Pan that I'd marked up and she pulled out and then incorporated into the painting. Now, I've not looked at the painting because this case does not hinge on the content of Peter Pan, but rather this painting that was given to you by an ex-girlfriend. Is that correct, Ryan?

That is correct. And your relationship with Jessie now is what? She is my wife. I am her husband. We've been married for almost a year. Happy almost an anniversary. Good job. Thank you. I'm glad you did it last year. Oh, we are too. And Ryan, I presume that this was given to you because you love Peter Pan as a concept, as a thing, as a thing, right? Concept as a thing is a thing, right? I do.

It was given to me. We were dating in college, and for a project she had to do for school, she was being asked to make a piece of painting incorporating light and the use of light. And so to dovetail it in, she was like, well, I might as well make something worthwhile. And she knew that I loved Peter Pan. And so she asked me to mark up my favorite pieces and put it together and gave it to me on a date. And Jesse, you would like this thing to go into the fire. I mean, I don't really feel the need to burn it. But I don't really see a good way to give it away to someone else because it is such a personal gift and even has like, Dear Ryan on the back. So I don't really see another option. It's either like the garbage or

a burning bonfire of hate. I don't know. One of the two. Well, wait a minute. Let's get to the point here. So first of all, you know, thank you for letting me, Ryan, I know that this is a piece of culture that means a lot to you, obviously. And you're also obviously aware of all of its problematic content. Most certainly. It is very easy to see and hard to overlook. So tell me what Peter Pan means to you, such that this painting, which I have not reviewed the evidence yet. That's going to be my final judgment will be based on, in part, on the quality of the piece itself, my reaction to it.

So I don't want to look at it just yet. But tell me what Peter Pan means to you, such that this painting was inspired. Absolutely. I grew up as part of a performing family, actually. My dad is a performer, and so I grew up in the theater as a kid. Yeah. My first introduction to Peter Pan was actually the Mary Martin musical. Yeah. By Comden and Green. And then later the Kathy Rigby, which is better because they improved the fly system.

Yeah. But every version of Peter Pan, I read the play and then read the novel and then read the novel that it was based on. And then like every movie that's come out, there's just, there is something about Peter Pan. And like you said, the very digestible, very tropic things that are tropic because they are based in allegory and based in like the roots of truth.

Like there is something about like the loss of innocence versus like the cost of innocence and youth about like the loss of innocence versus like the cost of innocence and youth about like it peter pan is that perpetual boy and he wants to be that boy but it also means that he never gets love and he never gets intimacy but he avoids responsibility and and there's something about it that just there is no version of peter pan in which at some point i don't end up crying watching it yeah like whether it's tinkerbell has taken the poison and now we all have to clap to believe in fairies or finding neverland which is the whole movie because don't it's just i can't

watch that movie anymore i cried too much i watched it twice i watched it one time and then watched it a second time because i was like it couldn't have been that bad. And it was. And I cried so hard. Don't kill Kate Winslet. Titanic understood that. And in Hook, when he realizes that family is what matters and he goes back home, like there's no version of Peter Pan where it doesn't like hit me on like a base human level in which you're happy about the joy of it and sad at the tragedy of it and you understand the cost of what it means to grow up and i love that about peter pan it's definitely very heart-wrenching there's some deep stuff at play for sure in peter pan

i'll be honest i couldn't watch it i was i was never very, I love Disney parks. I was never very into Disney animated movies aside from appreciating them as cultural touchstones. That's me speaking as a nine-year-old. That's what I would say. I appreciate this as a cultural touchstone. But one of the things that's true about Disney animated movies is they go they punch you in the gut and tinkerbell sacrificing herself a woman sacrificing herself to save this narcissist who has paid no attention to her it really hit me hard and continues to pay no attention to her afterward yeah i know he's a monster but you know i find that to be to me, the big revelation of my rethinking of Peter Pan. It's like, oh, yeah, there's also a reason why you watch Ferris Bueller.

Like, something extremely interesting and fun about a person who both subverts the rules and also shows why the rules are kind of necessary anyway. Jessie Nonthorne, are you still here? I am still here, yeah. I'm sorry. Ryan and I went down a little. We went to Neverland together for a second. I've heard it. I've heard it before, so it's not news.

Jessie, how do you feel about Peter Pan? I like Peter Pan. It doesn't hit me the same way it hits Ryan. And that's because like one of Ryan's particular, I think everyone has something that makes them cry. And Ryan's particular thing is children growing up. And obviously there's hardly any piece of art that captures that quite the way Peter Pan does. Yeah. And so he connects to it so deeply. I don't have that same connection to Peter Pan. I do have a harder time getting past the racist aspects of it,

but I do appreciate it as the exploration of what it means to grow up and what it means to be an adult and to be a child and its recognition that all children are monsters um that's not true well it's a it's a fairy tale in the tradition of real fairy tales which are much more ambiguous we'll talk more about that later but jesse i interrupted you so what would be your version of peter pan in your cultural life is there something that you really dig oh something that i connect to yeah i am far more i guess connected to high fantasy stories and also like grim's fairy tale yeah um yeah i i don't i don't have anything against darker fairy tales it's just the the growing up thing isn't my particular cup of tea. Yeah.

I like stories of people overcoming great difficulty, usually adults. Yeah. Like, not adults necessarily, but like not necessarily selfish children. I like stories where I can connect and admire the main character. Yeah. People like growing into adulthood and leaving childish things behind and being able to part with, say, a painting made by an ex-girlfriend. You could say that, yeah. Like that measure of kind of like, I don't want to let the past go.

As opposed to, I am an adult and I realize nostalgia is the most toxic impulse. It is time to put this behind me. Ryan, I'm just being... Being painted with a Pauline brush? Yeah, I'm being cheeky. Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor. We'll be back in just a moment

on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman Podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen?

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cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. There seems to be a premise that you have both brought to the virtual courtroom that you are ready to move on from this painting. In other words, Jesse Nonthorne said the issue isn't whether to throw it in a metaphoric fire, but what is the best way to dispose of it given that it is so personal. Ryan, have you agreed in principle and in your heart that it might be time to let this thing go? There is certainly an element of it does not quite have a place in our literal or

metaphorical lives. In our literal lives, there's literally no place on our walls in our New York apartment to hang this thing. We have enough other art that is good and great, and the walls are taken up with that. And the metaphorical of it is a lovely thing, and it does mean a lot to me, and it means a lot to my past, and it is a very personal gift, but it also feels strange to embrace like, yep, this is a thing given me by a girl that I used to date. And now I'm going to hang it in my kid's nursery. Like, that feels weird. That seems like a poor decision in life.

Are you still in touch with this person? Is this person still a part of your life? We talk very occasionally. Right. We ended on great terms. She lives in the city. Now, here's the very strange and salient point uh her name is also jesse this is a fairy tale this is not strange it was the 90s everyone was named

jessica and vogue was burning up the charts friends was also burning up the charts and everyone was named jesse She works in theater. She's a lighting designer on Broadway. And so occasionally when she has friends and family tickets, she throws them my way. So we have gone and seen Jesse and I, my wife, Jesse, and I have actually seen some shows that she has lit off of her discount. I have not. That was how we got the Sweeney todd hookups you didn't tell me that it was a birthday present yeah oh my gosh wow it was a birthday present

yes she throws free broadway tickets my way okay don't talk past this birthday present thing did you also give her the peter pan painting as a birthday present no it Did you also give her the Peter Pan painting as her birthday present? No, absolutely not. Or was that Christmas or Hanukkah or something? Jessie, how does it feel to learn that your tickets to Sweeney Todd were copped off of

Ryan's old lover that he kept secret from you? I mean, I'm heartbroken. I'm sad that I ever grew up. No, it's fine. You're married to a trickster. A trickster. A mischievous trickster. I mean, I did know that when I married him.

Yeah, you went in eyes wide open. Yeah. I will say that wife Jessie and ex-girlfriend Jessie have met. It's true. And have shared a meal together and have played Broadway karaoke bingo together. Yeah. When two people play Broadway karaoke bingo,

no hard feelings can exist. Oh, I mean, look, this is a symbol of maturity and non-childishness, right? That you're all getting along together just fine. You've moved on to a new relationship and yet there are no hard feelings and that's great. It's terrific. Does other Jessie know that you're contemplating moving on from this painting? She does not. And I actually have floated the idea of offering to return it to her if it's that precious but that also feels very bad so i don't know i honestly

don't know the social um contract of this situation nope do you know if she listens to podcasts right before we were about to record ryan looks up and says do you think we should warn Jess that we're doing this? And then we both shrugged and said, maybe. We did some internet research. She has not liked this podcast specifically on her Facebook page. Or Twitter. Or Twitter. We actually did do this very specific research.

So we're not positive whether or not she listens to this show. So we can't say she doesn't listen, but we can say we're not sure whether or not she listens to this show so we can't say she doesn't listen but we can say we're not sure that she does throw her painting down a well then please now no it's fine i'm not going to punish the painting for other jesse's podcast tastes it's not how i roll i'm not a punitive trickster god i'm just an adult human God. I'm just an adult human judge. Ryan, you present this as an issue of decor. You don't have room to display it anymore. And even you acknowledge it's a little weird to have around, say, and do you have children? Are you expecting children? Because you mentioned something about it. We do not have, nor are currently expecting, but plan at some point in the vague future to have them. To steal an infant from a perambulator and raise it in a Neverland of your own? From Kensington Gardens.

That's the working plan. If you had your druths, Ryan, would you like to just keep this thing and display it? Are you really ready to let go of it? Like, when you look at the painting, how do you feel display it? Are you really ready to let go of it? Like when you when you look at the painting, how do you feel about it? I am because I am 31 and a millennial and we are overly nostalgic as as every tabloid tells us, am a very nostalgic person. And I do like things of the past. And I've had this painting now for seven or eight years. Almost a decade.

And has hung in my college apartment. And then when I first moved to New York and then in a couple of different places. And so it is a memory, not really of the relationship that I had, but it reminds me more of my past self rather than of the past relationship that I was in. I have a couple of other things that I've always had. Like, I've got a Yankees pennant from when I was like six that is still hanging in our house. And so I am a nostalgic person by definition. And this painting, I would be a little sad to see it go. And so I am of two minds. One is if we were to keep it, I would want to put some effort into it and maybe get it a nice frame and maybe make it a little more presentable to find its place on the wall and find its place not just stashed in a closet somewhere. Or if we do let it go, find a replacement for it.

Something that has a spiritual tie from the past to the future. And I would make Jessie get me a new one. If she's going to get rid of my painting, I want a new one, and she has to get it for me. Some kind of new Peter Pan artwork? A new Peter Pan piece. Something that still represents my connection to that and the past. But if this particular Peter Pan does not suit her personality and her flexibility, she can get rid of it, but at the cost of getting me a new one.

You mean that your wife is going to commission a new painting from your ex-girlfriend? Maybe not that specifically. Maybe she finds something she likes on DeviantArt or Redbubble. Or we actually do have a couple of artist friends that I'm sure could make a lovely painting. It's one of the benefits of living in New York. There is no shortage of up-and-coming painters who want to paint things. So you don't have anything, a particular piece in mind that you're using this older painting for as leverage to get? No, I do not have a current piece

that I am trying to wrangle out of the deal. Right, you're not a master strategist. You're not a master emotional strategist. You flit and fly from impulse to impulse like Peter Pan. I am a lost boy. What do you do for a living? Musical theater.

I sing and dance. I never grew up. I play pretend. I've done Peter Pan on stage. That's happened. I played Captain Hook for Disney Cruise Lines. Whoa! Joel, man, did you hear that?

I did, Judge. Would you call that burying the lead absolutely how did i huh that's i just want to look we don't have time to go into your experience playing captain hook on the the Disney cruise line for how many times? I was at sea for six months. Speaking of nostalgia. I mean,

first of all, I'm thinking like, Oh, wasn't it great when there was theater and there was cruises. You, you were, I mean, it's lucky you survived.

You were at the most virusy place in the world. I was the nexus of badness. Yes. But I just, Oh, I can't i can't i mean look you know i talked about that six-part podcast series from karina longworth you must remember this on song of the south like i could easily do a six-part podcast with you about this experience that you had i have so many questions that need to be answered but we'll have to table that for a debrief later on ryan do you agree to that at some point? Absolutely.

I love talking about that. His stories are wonderful. They are pretty wild. I just, all I'm going to ask you to do is do a Captain Hook voice. Do a line. Do something. Alrighty. Blast that Peter Pan!

It was he that cut off me hand riveting yeah cruise line quality oh you're never gonna get it is the deepest you're never gonna get it not from jesse thorn that stung me. Ouch. And Jessie, may I ask, what do you do in the world? I work for a big publishing house in the city, making e-books and things. Also someone who refused to grow up. I guess so. People in publishing.

You know, it's just like people in podcasts. It's not anyone in the arts. We don't want to grow up. It's true. So we take a salary hit't want to grow up. It's true. So we take a salary hit and we just live in our land of pretend. I know. It's just pretend work. It's pretend business.

It's money losing business for funds. You know what it's like? Sort of like community radio. You know what I mean, Joel? Joel, did you ever grow up? No. Right. Jesse Thorne, did you ever grow up?

Yeah. Yeah. Some have grown have grown upness forced upon them yeah yeah so all right jesse this is a crux that i gotta uncrux how much of your dislike for this thing is aesthetic how much of it is let's put childish things behind us and how much of it is, if any, resentment because of a previous assignation? I think it is 70 percent aesthetic dislike. I don't think it is very pretty. Right. I just don't I don't like it. And I'm not I'm not a professional artist, so I guess I don't know all the rules of art, but I don't see that it's following the rules,

nor do I see that it's breaking them in an interesting way. Alright, I guess it's time for me to look at this piece of art. Please. Here I go. Exhibit A. Submitted by Jesse. A photo of the painting.

Yeah. You say that other Jesse made this in college? Yes. I think it shows. I would say it's at least cruise ship quality. Oh my gosh.

Do you know what? I've never been on a Disney cruise, but on a couple of other cruises with my friend Jonathan Colton, a couple of other lines, and my friend Jesse Thorne. I think you're onto something there, Jesse Thorne. Yeah, I could see this hanging in a landing between Promenade Deck and Lido Deck for sure.

I'll say I look at this picture. I think this is a painting done by a very talented lighting director though the use of light is is really wonderful it's true jesse thorn you can't see this but you're cracking joel man up over here in maine i've never i've never seen him smile this much in the past five years it genuinely, like my very sincere evaluation of it is that it's a very interesting looking and competently executed piece. It has some interesting ideas.

I think she incorporated the pages from the book, like the literal pages from the book beautifully. And it is much more, it's a much more sophisticated work of art than I imagined when it was described that said I could see it not being to plenty of people's taste or fitting decor and it doesn't take my breath away in its extraordinary artistic achievement thank you very much antiques roadshow Jesse Thorne appreciate that art appraiser everyone can go to the judge sean hodgman instagram account

and see this and all the evidence from our cases at any time and you can judge for yourself but i would say this is a very endearing very sentimental work of art executed commensurate to a college age person's skill and sensibility. It's cute. It's cute. Maybe cutesy, even. But you know what? Ryan, you're sentimental and cutesy, right? If nothing else.

Yeah. And endearing. And endearing, too. I was raised to be charming, not sincere. Wow, that's an incredible quote. Sondheim, I can't take credit for it. Oh, excuse me, I apologize. And now, Jess, you also submitted some photos of other pieces of art in your home. Is that what I'm looking at here? Yeah, so the other art in our home is also usually handmade, like by friends or by me. And it's all very sentimental as well. And I guess it just feels weird to have this

also very sentimental homemade piece, but from someone not in our current world of relationships. And also, I'm going to say that, you know, these works of art are a little bit more mature in their style and execution. And also collages. Now, they're not fancy because I just made them on cardboard with old magazines. I'm sorry. You made these things. I missed that. Yeah, those are all mine.

Oh, wow. Well done. Very nice. Yeah, I think you've got the eye. I agree. Yeah, this is like art that's grown up. And I don't love all of them, but one of them Ryan won't let me get rid of because he's sentimental. They'll all be available for your review on the show page on MaximumFun.org and obviously the Instagram account at Judge John Hodgman.

But which one would you like to get rid of, Jesse, that Ryan doesn't want you to get rid of? And this is news to me. We've had this conversation. Which one are you wanting to get rid of, Jesse, that Ryan doesn't want you to get rid of? And this is news to me. We've had this conversation. Which one are you wanting to get rid of? The conservatory garden. There's one that's... Oh, we can't get rid of that one. Exactly.

So there's one that I made. We got engaged in the conservatory garden in Central Park. And I wanted to make a collage of it. And it is huge. It's like three feet long. It's massive. And it didn't turn out quite the way I was hoping but... It's a collage

you made of the place I proposed to you. We can't get rid of that. And I hid a diamond ring in the collage so it's also a fun game for guests. You hid a diamond ring in the collage? Not a real one but like a picture of a diamond ring is one of the pictures

from the magazines that I put in there. If you had pasted your engagement ring into this collage, I would agree with Ryan. You should probably not throw it away. Maybe. No, excuse me. It's just a photo. And then finally, we have a photo here of Ryan as Captain Hook. See, this is why I didn't know because I didn't review the evidence because I was trying to remain neutral. That is actually not a picture of me as Hook. See, this is why I didn't know, because I didn't review the evidence, because I was trying to remain

neutral. That is actually not a picture of me as Hook. I am in over his right shoulder as one of the... That is a different production of Peter Pan that I did. You're rocking a tambourine in this one. Yep. And you're looking, I would say you're looking at the

foregrounded actor playing Captain Hook in this other non-Disney Cruise production. You're looking, I would say you're looking at the foregrounded actor playing Captain Hook in this other non-Disney Cruise production. You're looking at Hook with a lot of envy, I will say. I am his understudy. Yeah, that's right. You're hoping that that Smee that Captain Hook is sitting on will collapse and then Hook will break his neck and fall into a crocodile. And I can step into the limelight still you're still peter pan you're peter pan at heart all right well this misdirection has basically sealed your fate

i thought i was looking at a picture of you as captain cook if i were to rule in your favor let's be blunt here before i go in and and make my decision if i were to rule in your favor, Jesse, what would you have me rule? I would have you rule that we gracefully and gratefully acknowledge this painting's meaning to Ryan and then discard it. How would you discard it? See, that's the tricky thing.

I think, I can't think of a better option than it's like trash or burial at sea. sea like i don't i'm not sure what about the free section of craig's list oh yeah now that that would probably work now craig happens to be a judge john hodgman listener i think he could probably hook you up yeah but don't tell jesse that craig's hooking us up because we like to keep secrets from her. Tell her it's a birthday present. Yeah. It's a birthday present.

I got you one free listing on Craigslist. You're welcome. Ryan, if I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me order? You're ready to let go of this thing, but you're not, are you? You want to replace it with another thing? If you were to rule in my favor, I would probably want you to rule that we put some effort into it and get it a nice frame and find it a place in our house. So we can take it out of the closet? Yes.

Is that where it is now? It currently hangs on the inside door of a closet, of the linen closet. Every time I get a towel, I have to look at it. You don't want to look at it at all ever again. Um, not really. And I would settle as a backup verdict that she gets rid of this, but gets me a new piece of Peter Pan. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision.

I'm going to go into my skull island to contemplate this case, and I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jessie, how are you feeling about your chances here? Well, I feel pretty good. I mean, I would be happy to get Ryan a backup piece of Peter Pan art, and I think we could have a good time selecting that. So I didn't even realize that was an option. But if that's the verdict, then that is fine by me.

Framing it would be a little bit more of a pull, because first of all, very hard to get a frame. And second of all, have to keep looking at it. Wait, it's very hard to get a frame? It is if you're not... Okay, let me rephrase. It's hard for me to get a frame because I'm not willing to spend a ton of money.

Okay. I was like, you know, that type of store, I'm not going to tell you what type it's called, but you could probably figure it out. I'm limiting myself here. I know it's hard to access specialty retail in New York City. Well, it is kind of right now. But maybe if everybody piled into the truck

and drove the 40 miles to the Super Kmart, you could find a frame. I'm sure we could locate one. Ryan, how are you feeling? I am feeling pleased as punch. If I lose the case, I've made my case honestly and fervently, and I can do no more. I have done my best. I'll say I don't feel good about the verdict going in my direction, mainly because I believe the judge may or may not be correct

in his assessments of Peter Pan and the right to love it as much as I do. Well, we'll see what the judge has to say about all this when we come back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie,

Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict.

So first of all, verdict on Peter Pan. I am not here to cancel Peter Pan. Peter Pan is obviously a cultural touchstone, as nine-year-old John Hodgman knew and still knows. And it is so for a reason, because it is mysterious, weird, complicated. It's good and it's bad. It probes strange feelings that people have about childhood. There are versions of Peter Pan that celebrate eternal childhood, but it is clear to me, based on my research, that actual Peter Pan doesn't. And there's lots and lots and lots of culture that has racist stuff in it that is either intentional or unintentionally harmful in the stuff that we love.

And we, you know, we hold our noses or grimace or roll our eyes, say, when you're showing your kids the movie Peter Pan for the first time and you've completely forgot about what made the Red man red the incredibly offensive racist song in that movie you're like oh i forgot about this white knuckle for this that's how i showed it to my kids all i'm saying it is when you see this stuff to realize you're holding your nose and to think about why you're doing it. In fact, don't hold your nose. Open your nose and breathe in the stink and think about it and talk about it with the people you're sharing it with. Kids for the most part. And so part of the reason that I would not cancel Peter Pan is that what is good about it, we discussed with Jesse Nonthorne earlier,

is that like fairy tales, like real fairy tales, they get plucked from public domain by certain animation companies and kind of spiffed up. There is a dark strangeness to Peter Pan. Peter Pan is not a good guy, nor is he a bad guy. He is a child, and the exploration of the chaos of childhood is obviously something that resonates deeply with people. The tension between childhood and leaving childhood is very meaningfully explored in Peter Pan, even though J.M. Barrie himself put in this completely execrable and non-necessary bit of racism

because white guys in England at that time just tossed off racism like it was nothing. It is a piece of art that is worth engaging in. And I'm not just saying that because I don't want Disney to cancel me because they own everything. I want to be MODOK in a Marvel movie. Please, Disney, please don't cancel me. Please don't fire me from culture. And by the way, Warner Brothers, that thing I said about friends, I still love friends. And by the way, don't cancel me because I get this incredible pitch

for a friend spinoff put on the air now. it's more friends who live in a different it's set in the same time period exactly the same period as friends but it's different friends living in a different apartment and they hate the other friends you reuse old footage it's incredible yeah see ryan likes it sold in the room with Ryan. I'd watch that show. Yeah, more friends. And, you know, they could be a diverse cast. Like, show what New York was like in the 90s. Anyway, look. So I'm not on you, Ryan, for loving Peter Pan.

People like what they like. They love what they love. You've obviously explored all of the aspects of Peter Pan. Now, I thought this thing was going to hinge on nostalgia, the tension, as I say, between being a child and growing up. And I, as you know, I'm against nostalgia because it aims to hold on to a past that is usually illusory and as well suggests that time can go backwards or that you can hold on to a past that is usually illusory and as well suggests that time can go backwards or that you can hold on to the past.

You can hold on to a painting, but you can't hold on to the past. So you would think I would come down very hard on you, Ryan, not merely for loving this problematic piece of art, not the painting, but the subject, but also trying to hold on to the past. But what this hinges on is something that was glossed over very early by Jesse and me, which is inscribed to you. Your name is written on the back from other Jesse. And when something is given to you and it is inscribed, you can't just put it on the street. Someone will find it and they'll find out that you don't want the thing that they gave you.

It's horrible. Like, I'm hoping that Jesse never listens to this podcast. Other Jesse. I mean, other Jesse. Jesse non-Thorn non-Thorn. Because she's going to be hurt, probably, that you want to get rid of this thing. So the solution is simple. Jesse non-thorn non-thorn, if you're listening, I am ordering Ryan to keep this treasured gift forever. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all.

Hold. Okay. Now that Jesse non-thorn non-thorn is no longer listening, and I saved you from that social embarrassment, you got to throw this painting into a crocodile quick. You got to throw this painting into a crocodile quick. The best place for this thing would be a parent's basement for you to never have to deal with it again. You never have to give it up.

But you never have to have it. And then as you grow older and your parents grow older and maybe their house accidentally burns down, this problem is solved for you. The next best place for it to be is for you to send it on a journey that is appropriate to it, to its sentimental importance to you. Because here's the thing, Ryan.

I do think that you know, you have said yourself, it would be weird to hang this in my kid's room. It is a beautiful gesture that someone who cares about you made for you at a certain time in your life. But you know that that time is over. And also, the person you've chosen to spend your life with going forward just doesn't like it. She doesn't even want to look at it in the closet. If you had a thousand rooms, would it be fair to say, Jessie Nonthorne, that you would not want to look at this thing? If we had a thousand rooms, I actually would feel differently about it,

but we live in a one bedroom apartment, so we're kind of low on space and i as a new yorker am terrified of acquiring items all right or having too many items all right so here's the solution ryan you're in musical theater right a booming business right now just make a lot of money and get a thousand from mansion and if you can't do that then what i would suggest is you leave it in the closet until such time as time moves forward, not backwards ever, forward into a new and better normal that we're all going to make together. Once we have a vaccine, once we were able to move, once we were able to speak to each other's faces again, you're going to take other Jessie out to dinner and you're going to say to her, I think that it's time for me to part with this.

I love it and it will always be meaningful to me. Do you think you would like to have it back to give to somebody else? Because if not, my plan is to fly. What is it? Two stars to the right and straight on till morning. Second star to the right. Right. Whatever.

I was close. Fly. Second star to the right. Straight on till morning second star to the right right whatever i was close fly second star to the right straight on till morning to disneyland a place that i love to get on that peter pan dark ride a thing that i think is great it's like you're in a gondola in someone's living room i'm gonna take the painting with me'm going to get on the ride with the painting, and I'm going to get off the ride without the painting. And then I will walk out of Disneyland. Fling it into the abyss. I bet she'll be okay with that. Finally, I order Jesse Nonthorne, your wife, Ryan, to commission from one of your artist friends a painted version of this photo of you not as Captain Hook, but as Tricorner Hat Tambourine Man in the background. A painted version of that photo with the caption, I was raised to be charming, not sincere.

This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Ryan, how do you feel? Elated. I think that the judge has honorably and rightfully ruled, and I cannot wait to be arrested by disney police

as i try and leave something on a ride in the middle of the darkness jesse how about you i think having a painting of himself as tricorn man with a caption charming not sincere is everything ryan has ever wanted in life so i'm thrilled and I can't wait to figure out which artist friend would be best suited to to create this beautiful piece of artwork. Jesse, Ryan, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books. We'll have swift justice in just a moment. But first, our thanks to Alex Bootsley for naming this week's episode, Never Landmark Case. If you'd like to name a future episode, make sure to like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. You can follow us on Twitter at

Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJHO. And check out the MaxFun subreddit, MaximumFun.reddit.com to chat about this episode. We're also on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman, where you can make your own evaluation of the Neverland painting. Judge John Hodgman produced by the ever-capable Ms. Jennifer Marmer. This week's episode edited by Hannah Smith. Now, Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment. Rebecca asks, who should clear the last few seconds off the microwave timer at work? The next person to use it or the monster who stopped it before it was done? I mean, I know that you got a Breville smart oven.

You have a microwave though, right, Jesse oven. You have a microwave, though, right, Jesse? I do have a microwave, yes. You ever had that experience when you're walking into the kitchen and you're like, I wonder what time it is? And you glance to the clock in the microwave and you're like, it's 17 seconds o'clock? What's going on? Yes. Yeah. yes yeah and do you do what i do when you realize that the last person who used it maybe even yourself didn't clear the timer and therefore you don't know what time it is do you do you

take the microwave and throw it away uh yeah typically yeah Joel, what do you do? I reset it. You reset it after you use it? Anytime I see that it's 17 o'clock. So you're saying that there's someone in your house who maybe doesn't clear the time. That would be me. You do it. You're the... I'm the monster.

The perpetrator. All right, Joel's the monster. Even the monster knows, don't be a monster when you're done using that microwave clear the countdown let us know what time it is that's all i got that's it for this week's episode submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash jjho or email hodgmanumFun.org. No case is too small. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. MaximumFun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Audience supported.