Judge John Hodgman - Night(shade) Court

Episode Date: August 19, 2026

What is the best way to ripen a tomato? Jay says that a tomato is best eaten straight off the vine, hot from the sun, with a little salt. His wife, Gina, says that while that sounds lovely, if they let their tomatoes ripen on the vine, the local wildlife will get to them first! She likes to pick them as they start to ripen and finish the process inside a paper bag with a banana. Jay wants her to stop being a premature picker. Gina says a bag-ripened tomato is better than no tomato at all! Who's right? Who's wrong? Thanks to reddit user u/FunnyFilmFan for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at reddit.com/r/maximumfun!  Watch the full episode on Youtube at youtube.com/@JudgeJohnHodgmanPod. Don't forget to subscribe! ---Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Become a member to unlock special bonus episodes and more. Memberships start at just $5 a month. Just tap here!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bell of Jesse Thorne. This week, Nightshade Court. Gina brings the case against her husband, Jay. Gina and Jay are avid gardeners. It's a relaxing activity with delicious results. But for them, tomato season is ripe for disagreement. Gina is fed up with local critters eating her delicious ripe tomatoes. In order to beat them to the punch, she picks the tomatoes as they start to show. signs of ripening. Then she lets them finish the process inside a paper bag with a banana. But Jay says Gina is a premature picker. Tomatoes taste best if they're left to fully ripen on the vine. Gina would rather have a tomato ripened her way than no tomato at all. Who's right, who's wrong,

only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. Then Prince Rainbow saw that Elrera had been as good as his word, and that he himself must keep his promise too. He let the rabbits out of the marshes of Kelphazin, and they multiplied everywhere. And from that day to this, no power on earth can keep a rabbit out of a vegetable garden. Bail of Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in.

Gina and Jay, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you, God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he does not have a green thumb

but rather an alcohol molar? Yes, I do. I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Gina and Jay, welcome to the Court of Judge John Hodgman. You may be seated. Normally we would have you guessed the obscure cultural reference,

but we're going to hold off. Why don't you think about it a little as we dig into the vegetable garden of your case? Gina, you seek justice in this court says here that you are in a war against your local wildlife, what's going on? Well, what isn't going on? We have loads of critters coming into our yard day and night.

We have chipmunks, we have squirrels, rabbits. Raccoons with their crafty little thumbs. Yes, we actually have a mama raccoon and two baby raccoons. Now we have an opossum. The list goes on. Woodchuck. This is how I react to raccoons. This is how I react to opossum.

Ah. Yes. They're delightful. I know Racklins are very cute, but their hands are too crafty and their poop is too poisonous. Did you say you have a wood chuck? Yes. We have a wood chuck. How much wood does it chuck? It seems to do mostly grubbing. Yeah, let's say it could chuck wood. How much wood would it chuck? As much as it could chuck. Where is the garden located? On the continent of North America, I presume. Where?

In our backyard in Connecticut. In Connecticut. And how do you know about all these animals coming in? Do you have a trail cam or what? And if you don't, why not? We have multiple trail cams because we need to get them from between the bears. Oh, we didn't mention the bears. Yeah.

The bears and the coyotes. The bobcat. And the fox. And the fox. And these are things that are not a danger to our birds. And now you're just writing a children's book. We have a do not pet zoet. zoo in our backyard. Yeah, we live in a zoo only were the ones in the cage. So, and we have multiple

cameras stationed in different places around the property. Do I identify the creatures so that you may murder them? No. When we moved into the house, it was, I'm originally from New York City, so it was such a novelty to see so many animals that we wanted to just capture them all. It's a delight. Yes. And we wanted to know exactly how close to the house they were getting. And what did you determine? Which is way too close. They're on our patio. Do you have any video you can share with us of the bears lounging on your cheslongs? I do have a video of the bear dancing for the bird feeder, which I hung up just high enough to make the bears have to dance for it.

If you send it, I'll trade you a trail cam of a rabbit eating. My wife was a whole human being in our own rights plants up here in Maine. Oh, there were two options. One was put the bird feeder a little bit too high for the bears to reach. The other was to have Yosemite Sam shoot at the bear's feet. And delay, on delay. Yes, please send in that bear video as soon as possible. Absolutely.

Thank you very much. Absolutely. Be happy to. And Gina, what does your garden grow? What doesn't it grow? So we, first of all, we have a lot of herbs. So we have parsley and basil and dill. and camamil.

We also have onions and scallions. You know what they call dill? Raccoon bait. Because coons love dill. Oh, I did not know that. I just made that up. Our dill's been untouched. Our dill has gone untouched.

This is true. We also have zucchini. You know why it's been untouched? Because the raccoon told the other animals, stay away from my dill. I'll feed you my poison poop. That's how devious they are. Yeah, so we also have.

tomatoes. We have three kinds of peppers, onions, strawberries. Oh, we have lavender. Cucumbers. Potatoes. Yes, we have sweet potatoes. Right, two kinds of potatoes, including sweet potatoes. What else do we have? Cucumber. We had carrots, but they're all gone. Peas. We pulled the carrots and we had English peas. Lettuce. Lettuce. This is a robust garden. Indeed. John, I know that you live. in New York City a significant portion of the time. But for me, it is so delightful to hear someone list things they're growing in the garden in a voice that sounds like at any moment they could go, hey, strawberries.

Grown English peas over here. You're like gooseberries. I got those two. We're dripping with jalapenos over here. Halapenos, cherry peppers. It's too. We have jalapenos. We have cherry peppers.

Yeah, yeah. And we have green peppers. And I don't think I sound quite that. My accent's not that strong. No, I love it, though. I love to hear it slipping through. Yeah, when people are watching the Sopranos, they don't know what Tony is saying.

When they say, Gabagool, like, what's Gabagool? People don't know in the Northeast Italian-American dialect. That's spicy microgreens. Spicy microgreens. Thank you for that polite laughter. But let's get to these tomatoes. They are the center of this case, Gina. How do you make sure that you get the tomatoes before the animals eat the tomatoes?

Thank you for asking, John. You're welcome. So every... And please call me Judge John Hodgep. My apologies. We have met before. We have cruised together on the Jonathan Colton Cruise. So I don't begrudge you your familiarity.

In fact, call me Judge Johnny. Okay, Judge Johnny. Judge Johnny of the Seas. Wait, John. Can I call you baby? Jay. Jesse, you and I have cruised together on the on the on the on the waters of the Pinobscot Bay in Maine on the Grace Bailey.

So you may call me baby Jay. Yes. Well, Judge Johnny. And Jay, and Jay, you can call me Ray or you can call me Mary Day, but just don't call me late to dinner because there's no dinner because the animals are eating your tomatoes. Or are they, Gina? How are you stopping the tomatoes from getting at by these creed?

features. Okay, so once or twice a day, I go out to the garden, usually in the morning and in the evening to inspect. And as soon as I see the tomatoes are starting to turn color, they're a little bit yellow. At the end of the day, they might be more yellow than they were in the morning. I will take that as my cue to pull them because they have reached the point where they have fully matured. I also have multiple pairs of sunglasses, and one of the pairs of sunglasses I have allows me to see the yellow coming through a little bit more effectively than the others. And so I kind of do that as a, not as a primary method, but I would say as a backup method to make sure that I'm really seeing what I think I'm seeing. What are the special gardening sunglasses you wear to determine the ripeness of tomatoes? Are these the glasses from they live?

Yeah. Are you rowdy, Roddy Piper? I've been found out. Yeah. No, they're just regular prescription sunglasses. Did you discover this wonderful garden hack, or are they advertised as being ripeness detecting lenses? I discovered it all by myself. I actually went out to the garden once.

It was still very bright out late in the day. and I was looking at all the tomatoes and then I said, oh, you know what, I should take my sunglasses off. And then I put them back on because I realized that I was actually seeing different colors with the sunglasses on. So it was completely serendipitous.

It's giving you false shades that help you pick those tomatoes faster. Are you throwing shade? I'd throw in just a little bit of garden shade. A little night shade, if you will. You know, Jay and Gina, my mom used to be an avid gardener, and we grew tomatoes in Brookline, Massachusetts in the summertime. And my memory was not that she would put on special sunglasses to tell when the tomatoes were yellow enough to pick. In fact, my mom would usually pick them when they were red and ripe and delicious.

Why is that not your process, Gina? That is not my process because I have found that. when they start to turn, they attract the attention of the menagerie that lives in our backyard. And they were starting to eat the tomatoes. We'd go to pick them and find there were holes. There were bite marks or they were on the ground, half eaten already. So I started picking them earlier and earlier, and it got to the point where I was picking them the absolute earliest that I felt I could, where they were. were starting to turn. Because you have what you consider to be a scientific method for ripening them off the vine, correct? I do. I have science on my side. What is the method? The method is I put them in a

paper bag with a banana. And as the banana ripens, it lets out some sort of chemicals that enable the tomatoes and other produce to ripen. And then every morning, I check the bag, see. how far they've come along, and then when they are ripe enough to eat, we pull them out. Using a banana is known as the Minion method. Jay, I'm always looking for a new way to waste a banana. What is wrong with Gina's method?

Well, your wise mom knew that picking a tomato when it was red and probably in the heat of the day was letting the most of the flavonoids and all those delicious things and turpines that make a tomato taste so damn good, good. Are you raising tomatoes or medical grade marijuana? That was immediately what I thought of. I am definitely thinking of tomatoes.

You got to wait until the tomatoes are sticky, icky, John. You like to pick the tomatoes when they're ripe off the vine, nice and red, still hot from the sun, and just eat them like an apple. Is that true or not true? Absolutely true. That is when they are the most delicious and it's the most satisfying. I get just this deep sense of satisfaction out of like a hot beefsteak tomato with a little bit of salt on the side, eating it right off the vine.

This is the first episode of Judge John Hodgman that's going to go out with an explicit warning now. Would you love a hot beefsteak tomato? Honestly, this feels. It feels to me like what I would call a full Huckleberry Finn lifestyle. Yeah, right. Just juice dripping down the face, painting fences, riding on rafts. Yeah, exactly. We're guilty of all of those.

You take some ripe tomatoes down to the fission hole and catch some craw dads. No, we take the have a heart trap and we catch chipmunks. And then export them. Then you eat them hot in the summer sun. There's nothing like a fresh trap chip monk. It's fur still warm as I bite into it in the hot August sun. That is the way a tomato should be done. Yeah.

Say that again. That is the way a tomato should be done. Should be done. Should be consumed by you in the garden. Mm-hmm. Now, I realize that, yes, we have a proliferation of wildlife around. You realize, yes, you have some tomatoes. So I built a big fence around.

the entire garden. And then the lower half of the fence, I put on like that micro netting so that the chipmunks and things can't get through. And the rabbits can't get in because we have a ton of rabbits. Yeah. And then I put a canopy over the top of a, because I've been sensitive to Gina's concerns about the garden getting invaded. Not only sensitive, I've been on board.

The netting over the top to keep the birds away from the tomatoes might have been one of those where I went, okay, honey, yes, I'll do that. Even though you don't believe it's the birds. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I believe in, you know, covering all the bases and making my wife as happy as I can. And he has done all these things wonderfully. Except in this one instance where the conflict is so intense that it must be settled in a podcast. Yes.

Yes. You are willing to make your wife sad in order to get justice for your tomato way. My tomato lifestyle demands it. Well, listen, you are mumbling to yourself words, turpenoids and flaventers and whatever. You also said carbon monoxide under your breath when Gina was describing her paper bag ripening method. Her science. Was that you saying, I wish she wasn't expelling so much carbon monoxide out of her mouth by talking dumb stuff? Or were you trying to explain the method of the paper bag?

Because I would like to know how that works. Well, first, John, you take the paper bag and you tie it to the tailpipe of a motor vehicle. I guess we excel carbon dioxide, actually. I don't know what. I don't know. I don't know. It sounded like science to me. Explain the science, Jay. Well, my understanding is that when you put the paper bag method and you put the banana in there, that as it breaks down, it gives off carbon dioxide, which aids in ripening the fruit faster. I believe this would be a great time to look at some evidence that was submitted, specifically a selection from a YouTube video explaining this method.

Can we see that now? Tomatoes really don't have to ripen on the vine. Now, I'm not saying pick a green tomato and ship it to your local grocery store like tomatoes are traditionally grown. That's not what we're growing tomatoes for. But you don't have to let it get fully ripe and it may even be advantageous to harvest it a little bit earlier. So let me talk about what exactly I mean here. We have these beautiful green tomatoes here. We don't want to harvest those at all.

Then we have this guy. This guy is about 30 to 50% ripe. It's at what's called the breaker stage. So if you remember, tomatoes will ripen quite literally from the center out and the bottom up. Remember, this was the blossom side of the tomato. So this is the oldest section, so to speak, of the tomato. Then of course, the center. So when you see it at about 30 to 50% ripe like this, you can clip it right off.

And this will ripen up perfectly and the flavor will not be. lessened in some way. When it's at 30 to 50%, especially 50% on the vine. Pause right there, pause. Hold. Hold. I need a comment on something.

First of all, what a hunk. Who is this guy? Who's this hot beefsteak tomatoes to tell me how to clip tomatoes? That's YouTube hunk, Kevin Espiritu, from Epic Gardening. Epic gardening. Epic gardening.

Cross-promote with Judge John Hodgman on YouTube, please, at Judge John Hodgman pod. The other question I have is, Gina, how can this guy tell when this tomato is breaking, as it were, getting a little bit ripe if he's not wearing special glasses? Maybe my question is, maybe my question is, do you agree with his assessment that this tomato is ready for picking? I do agree with his assessment. And I would say that my sunglasses are, they are, they play a supporting role, not a primary role. And helping me determine. I'm excited to learn about the breaker stage here, John.

And I'm also excited to learn if we watch a little bit more of this, if there is any other lingo shared between gardening and CB radio. So, hey, Jan, why don't you hit play, good buddy? Over. You can cut it and the flavor is perfectly preserved. There's not a ton of extra advantage to going past that point. And the reason why is because if I let this guy get, perfectly ripe on the vine. It has way less shelf life off the vine and birds, rats,

et cetera, more likely to hit it. So, I mean, you really have to try this to believe it. It kind of seems unbelievable. But I would encourage you to harvest something like this, about 50% ripe, let it ripen indoors, and then harvest a perfectly ripe one and just kind of compare and see how that works. It really, really makes a big difference. You heard that, honk. He said, not only are rats coming in to hit that hot beefsteak tomato, the birds are hit. it too. You said that there were no birds. Well, not now that we have a net over the entire garden. Yeah, but I thought you said you put the net over the garden just to humor, Gina, because you didn't believe that birds were hitting that hot beefsteak. I had no idea that birds were just another one of

the things that were going after my tomato plants. Yeah. Your tomato plants. Not ours? You're married, aren't you? I think we had ours, hers, and mine. Please elaborate. Separate sections of the garden. Well, there were, I'm used to growing a lot of tomatoes. I've been growing tomatoes for about 15 years or so. Okay. And traditionally I grow them in five gallon buckets, which allows me to control the water amount. And if it's raining out plenty, you know, they can probably even still use some water. But it gives me a lot of control over the tomato and I get to kind of water appropriately, trim it back, move it from place to place.

Gina prefers them in the garden. So she put hers in the ground and staked it. She wanted to ground and stake it. I wanted to put it in my five-gallon bucket and cage it. So we have distinctly different methods for growing tomatoes. And the one that was in the garden and staked was clearly one of her tomatoes that she had claimed, while the other ones that were all in buckets were also all hers to pick also, apparently. Well, I mean, look, I think you've anticipated what my...

might have been a pretty simple solution that I might have suggested in my verdict. And now I have to go back to the drawing bird. Bird. Those damn trying birds. You know what? Leave it in. Drawing bird. Birds can hit it.

Why don't you grow separate marital tomatoes? Or do you? We did, but she just kind of overrode me on that one, I think. Are there still a bunch of buckets in your backyard? Why, yes. So, Gina, Jay, Jay has grown tomatoes in buckets to, his pleasure. You like growing tomatoes in the ground. Why not just grow separate tomatoes? I mean, we can. But you don't. We didn't in the beginning of the summer differentiate mine

versus yours. We just differentiated methods for growing them. Are you concerned that if you start growing separate tomatoes and sleeping in separate beds, that it's just a surefire path to divorce? I mean, that could be the seeds of our marital destruction. Oh, nice agricultural metaphor there. I like that very much. Thank you. Gina, Jay has says he's been grown tomatoes for 15 years. You're from New York City. How did you come to be living in Connecticut with a garden full of vegetables and a forest full of pilfering critters? Well, to begin with, when I was a small child, I lived in Canarsie, Brooklyn, and we had a backyard, and my father grew produce instead of using it for parking cars. So we had a garden from when I was a small child. That's true, Jesse.

by the way, there are parts of Brooklyn where things grow, including a tree. I've heard legends. And then I variously would grow things on small things on fire escape, but at one point I lived in an apartment with a balcony. And so I grew things on the balcony, obviously in planters and pots. Yeah. I get so excited, John, to hear about, we always have these guests on our show who live in Kansas, and then they just live in these palatialists. They're like, I'm a schoolteacher. I have, I have, well, I'm trying to decide what to do with my third extra bedroom.

Right. Exactly. And it really, it really makes me feel for once, like I'm living like a king here in the big city of Los Angeles to hear about people sleeping on their fire escapes and stuff. That's how you beat the heat. Well, instead of parking our car in the backyard, we put a little, put a little, what you do is you put a little sleeping bag and a mattress out on your fire escape. That's how you beat the heat and maybe witness a rear window murder. It's fun living in New York. You ever live in New York, Joel, man?

No. Okay. I'm up here in Maine, by the way. Not in New York right now. I'm in my summer chambers here at the Solar Power Institute of W-W.R-U in Orleans, Maine. 89.9 FM and at w-er-u.org. We have a photo of you in your garden. Let's take a look.

This is also some evidence that was submitted. All these photos available, of course, on our social media and our show page at maximum fund.org. And if you're looking at our YouTube episode, you can see it right now. Look how adorable you are, Gina, in front of all of your tarped and fenced-in garden. And I will throw in, that is the greenhouse

that I built the year before in the background there. and that greenhouse we used for growing flowers and things for our wedding. Why don't you grow the tomatoes in that greenhouse? Is that not a solution? Oh, it gets too hot. Yeah. It gets too hot. We started them in there. Okay. But eventually they had to come out. Jay, you speak with some authority and you say you've been growing tomatoes for 15 years. Do you think you know more about tomatoes than Gina? Be honest. Yeah, I'm going to say I do. I'm going to say that I've gotten more, I've yielded more tomato results, growed more tomatoes.

You've logged in more tomato growing hours? Yes. Gina, did you dispute that? I think he has more tomato growing hours in a lifetime. However, that doesn't mean he has greater expertise. Yeah, a lot's changed in the tomato game in the past two years, Jay. You may have been, you may have been, you may have been King Garden manure back. 15 years ago when people were coating tomatoes with basic.

But there's a lot going on now. I'm only just learning about the turpines and everything now. The flavonoids, although I will say I've yet to find a green tomato in the grocery store with a sign that says 50% off, take it home and bag it. You're going to love it. All right. So let's get, this is back to the crux of the case here. The terpenes and the flavonoids and the other chemicals that cause good flavor, I suppose,

tomatoes and you're saying the bag kills it. Gina, you're saying the bag enhances it or makes it just as good. But one thing we didn't learn from the hunk and the epic garden is what's actually happening in that bag. We have Exhibit E here, which is a clip from a magazine called Southern Living. John, that's a magazine about living in the southern part of New England, right? Yeah, that's right. It's from Connecticut, which is, by the way, Hey, Joel, did you know that Connecticut is part of New England? No, New York isn't? That's right. Thank you, Joel.

Okay. Yankees suck. Okay, let's get back to Southern Living. It says here, according to Edwards, who I presume is the expert's insulted for this article, the best way to ripen tomatoes that are already picked is to put them in a bag. Quote, ethylene gas is produced by the tomato skin. When placed in a closed paper or plastic bag, this trapped gas will help ripen your tomatoes more effectively.

then if they are just left on the counter, end quote. And it says to expedite the process, you can add an unpeeled banana. The banana will also produce more ethylene gas, which helps ripen the tomato. Jay, no mention of carbon monoxide, dioxide, turpenines, turpentines, flavanolids, nothing. It's ethylene, my friend, ethylene. What do you think about this method that is described by Southern Living Magazine? Well, they say that if you have a tomato that's already picked, it helps it to ripen. So I'm all for anything that's already picked to help it come to fruition.

He just wants me to delay picking them. To what point do you want to delay the picking? To the advice of the gardening hunk. To the breaker stage? Yes, closer to the breaker stage. 10-4, good buddy. Thank you, Donald Duck. Right now they're getting picked when they're at like the 20,

20% stage. I would agree with that. Oh, so I didn't know that Gina wasn't pushing it to the breaker stage. I mean, the guy said 30 to 50%, and Gina is picking them so unrived that she has to wear special eyeglasses to see the stripes.

She can't even see the tomatoes properly. Well, the photos that I submitted demonstrate the level at which I pick them. Well, let's take a look at that evidence now. Whoa. All right. For those who are not yet watching the YouTube

or checking us out on our social media or the maximum fun.org show page, these are, this is a bag of tomatoes with a very greeny yellow banana in it. And the tomatoes are all quite green except for a couple of them.

I would not, I would not put these at the breaker stage. I call these the Jessica Tandy stage, because these are only good for, Brian. That's right. They're a little more yellow on the bottom. The next photo was taken a couple days later, so you can see that they are progressing.

Thank you for doing the time lapse. Oh, yeah. Okay, so now we've jumped ahead and time inside the paper bag. And ethylene has clearly built up because that banana is all brown. One of your smaller tomatoes, two maybe, are turning red. That is a cherry pepper. That's a cherry pepper. There's one cherry pepper.

You put in false flag tomatoes. In the back right corner, those two tomatoes. No, all of the tomatoes are the same. It's just that you added a cherry pepper that you threw it in. You sabotaged the evidence with a cherry pepper. You tampered with the evidence, Jay? I said I want my way. All right.

So looking at the bag, setting aside the cherry pepper that is nestled, so intimately, next to that banana. There's a couple of smaller tomatoes in the upper right that are starting to turn orange. A couple more that I would now say, based on the Hunk's recommendation, are at the breaker stage now. And then the majority of them still look plenty green to me. You submitted this evidence, Gina? I did. I was going to submit another set of evidence, but those tomatoes at this point have all turned red and are being eaten.

And you didn't have the special lenses that you needed for your camera to take a picture of these beautiful red tomatoes that would have proven your case and won you my verdict? Alas, no. Gina, you know, I'm not picking on you here. I'm rooting for you, but this is evidence works as much in Jay's favor. is in yours. Do you, do you, do you get a thrill from eating subripe tomatoes, Gina? Yes or no? I do not, no. All right. How did these tomatoes turn out? If you couldn't send us a real picture, can you send us a word picture? Uh, they turned out, they were exquisite. They are beautifully ripened, vibrant red, juicy, flavorful, plump. Did you let Jay eat any of them?

We ate one last night. Jay, how did it taste? We ate one this morning. That's true. Yeah. It was good. It was still better than a store-bought tomato. Eventually, according to both of you and you're both under fake oath here, these green tomatoes did ripen.

You ate one last night, one this morning. Jay, you said it was pretty good, better than store-bought. It's a well-known, well-research technique. Why is your tomato from this morning not good enough? I can't say that it wasn't good enough because it was still a really good tomato. I think it probably could have been better, but it was saved from vermin. So despite it being picked prematurely, with time, it did come to a delicious fruition. I think it was Wayne Gretzky who said, you don't eat all the tomatoes.

You let the raccoons eat. In sports. Do you think that you would have been able to tell the difference between a tomato plucked at peak ripeness from the vine and this tomato, this bag tomato you had this morning? I would like to think that I would be able to tell the difference between them. Just the way I can tell the difference between the store-bought tomato and the one that we grew ourselves. So you did do a taste test. We did do a taste test. And, Gina, were the terms of the taste test acceptable to you?

Indeed, they were acceptable to me. What were they? The terms? Yeah. How did you do it? So the terms were we had three different tomatoes, one that was store-bought, one that was picked and ripened in a bag, and one that we allowed to ripen on the vine. We made sure they were all at the same room temperature. And we had somebody put them on separate plates and keep them.

track of which was which as we gave our reactions. And who was that separate person a bear on your patio? It was the opossum, obviously. Yeah, you know what? Their handwriting is better. Yeah. You made sure that there were the same temperature, but I feel like for you, Jay, a big, a big condition of a good tomato is that it's sun hot, warm from the sun, right?

Yes, that it's picked at that point of the day right before it starts. starts to cool off. Gina, I think what Jay is getting at is that there's something more than just the sheer flavor of the flavonoid on your tongue. It's the whole experience of picking the tomato at a certain time of day, of tasting the sunshine on its skin, of standing out there in the middle of the garden like a, like a Blue Jay or a raccoon or a fissure cat, just munching something straight from the garden. Jay, am I representing your case pretty well there?

You hit it right on the nose. You hit it right. And Jonah, she, Gina gets this because every time that we harvest something from the garden and we make dinner and we put onions and peppers and things from the garden in, she's just delighted. And, you know, remarks on it every time. Do you feel, Jay, that you and Gina approach gardening differently philosophically? What does gardening mean to you, Jay? And what would you say it means to Gina? It's about starting something, nurturing it, watching it grow, and then eventually harvesting it.

It's about reward from effort, and it's about enjoying the effort that you're putting in. And where does the bag not fit into that? When you saw the picture of the green tomatoes, it was a little shocking, right? When she picked those green tomatoes at first, I found that very shocking. And so that day was the bone of our contention was right there on the day where all those green tomatoes that you saw in the bag were picked. Was it on your first year wedding anniversary and you thought to yourself, I've made a terrible mistake? No. I was just surprised that the two of us finally found something to really butt heads over. Like there was not any, we could not find common ground on this day because she had picked the tomatoes when they were so green.

And we just were at, we were at odds about it. Gina, would you agree that you guys don't really have conflict over anything other than these tomatoes? I would say we're so good at talking through disagreements and stopping when we get upset to reflect, self-reflect, and then share our inner worlds that it was a little bit exciting to have something that we could actually seek some external guidance around decision-making. What do you think it is about these bag tomatoes that is about to tear your marriage apart then? The one thing that you couldn't resolve through your acknowledged incredibly mature way of working through issues and problems, which I admire. Thank you, Judge Johnny. Jay, what would you have any order if I had to order your favor?

Oh, I would have you say that tomatoes should be picked at the breaking point. Well, at the breaking point as defined by Garden Hunk on Epic Gardening. Correct. All right. Gina, what's wrong with that? I did not think he was going to say that. What did you think he was going to say? I thought he was going to say that we should wrap them in the material that we used.

We did this to protect a couple of them. We wrapped them to keep them so that they would mature on the vine just for this show. And I thought there was going to come a point where he would want us to just do that and let them fully ripen on the vine. I, on the other hand, feel that he should trust my judgment around when it is appropriate to pick them. That even if it looks a little immature to him, that ultimately I have the eye, the skill to know when they are ready to be. The glasses. Yes. Well, this brings us back to the taste test.

So you had a supermarket tomato. You had a tomato picked at the pre-breaker point and then ripened in a bag. And then you say you wrapped one specific tomato plant with a material to make sure that it could ripen on the vine. Is that true? That is correct. What was the material? Like a netting. Netting.

It's the same netting that you see covering the enclosed garden area. I see. We just had more of it in the greenhouse. And Jay, you tried them all. Obviously, the store tomato, you could tell the flavonoid was bad. Could you tell the difference between bag tomato and vine tomato? I did. And Gina also said that she could tell which one tasted the best.

And it was the one that was picked directly from the vine. And I knew you were going to say that you could tell the difference, Jay. But Gina, could you tell the difference? And is Jay correct that the vine rate? and one taste better to you? I'll remind you, we're old pals from the cruise, but you are under fake oath. I'm going to ask the hard questions.

I find that the thing that makes the difference in taste between the pre-picked and the immediately picked tomatoes is the temperature of the tomato when you are eating it. If the tomato is sun dappled, and warmed, it tastes better than if it's been sitting in the kitchen with the air conditioner running. That's a very, Jay, you have to acknowledge, that's a very specific moment in time for eating a tomato, for it to be still warm from the sun. Not everyone has that luxury. No.

Normally that luxury is reserved to squirrels and raccoons. But you too, sir, have crafty thumb. That's true. and discerning discerning tastes. But to get to the point, Jay, that's a very specific short window of time in which to enjoy a tomato the way you want to. It's not consistent.

It's not replicable all the time. The tomatoes, you're taking a risk. The tomatoes might all be eaten, or you're taking a risk that the day you want a tomato, it might be cloudy out and the tomato might not be warm. Are you trying to tell me, we've talked a lot about tomato hornworms. Are you telling me that this is a feature

and not a tomato hornworm bug? I think that getting the tomatoes to a point where they're red and really ripe looking. And I think there's a general consensus about what a red ripe tomato looks like among people. And I'm not even looking for it to get to that point, but I would think that that would be the most delicious tomato. So all of a sudden you're throwing warm from the sun out the window. Listen, warm from the sun is the best. But like you said, it's a rare, it's a short, short moment opportunity. And, you know, if I'm having that tomato during dinner time and I want to slice it open for putting on my burger, it's probably not warm anymore.

You definitely, Gina, you have to admit that there's a difference between warm from the sun and cold from a bag next to a rotted banana. Yes. And so we're in Bloomfield and we've been getting a lot of rain lately. That probably has significance to a gardener, but what do I care? Because you won't have it sun warm if it's not. It's raining. Yeah, we won't have sun more. Got it.

I'm struggling to understand the results of this test because I'm hearing Jay say, oh, my wife, Gina, definitely preferred the sun ripen, the fully vine ripen tomato. And I'm also hearing the suggestion that all three tomatoes in the test were room temperature. So, Gina, why are you moving the goalposts and saying, of course, a warm tomato?

is better. If these three were the same temperature and you preferred the vine ripened tomato, why are you denying it? That's a really difficult question to answer. My bailiff went hard there, Gina, but I will allow this line of questioning. Okay. Gina, open your pie hole. I do like a tomato pie. I will say that the temperature is what really makes the difference. And when the fresh-picked tomato and the bag tomato are at the same temperature, to me, they taste the same. Do you, Gina, deny that in this taste test, as your husband asserted, you preferred the tomato that was ripened fully on the vine? You may not take the fifth.

They were both very good. Wow. Wow. What was the upshot? we learn from the tape? Now I'm lost. I'm sorry to say. Gina won't admit. Gina keeps saying, I like them both. I like them both. It was sun ripens better, sun ripens better. But I heard Jay very clearly say that they both picked the sunripen tomato. Is that or is that not true, Gina?

Don't look at me. Is it or is it not true? Open your pile. It is true. Whoa. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Whoa. I thought for a moment there that Gina couldn't handle the truth.

But you did. I was wondering. I was worried. You badgered the witness. You have a problem with badgers, too. Do you know? All that to say, I think we got to a very important truth here. I think I may have enough information in order to come to a decision, but I do have one other question.

Gina, if you wrapped one tomato vine in protective netting so as to do this taste test, Why don't they make the whole airplane out of the black box, if you will? Why not just grow all tomatoes that way? Because then you prevent the pollinators from coming in and making more tomatoes. It's always something in gardening. If you're denying the squirrel's food, then you're also denying the pollinators a place to pollinate. Well, we could just wait until the tomatoes were starting to be well-formed and then wrap them. Yeah, but you're going to lose a certain number of tomatoes to predators if you wait.

Exactly. Isn't that the point, Gina? That's exactly the point. We are preventing the predators from coming and eating the tomatoes at the expense of not having more tomatoes on that specific plant. And the growing season is, you know, we still have several more weeks. And if they don't get pollinated now, they won't be ready to pick by the end of the season. So what would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor, Gina? If you were to rule in my favor, I would ask that Jay allow me to be the one to determine the readiness of the tomato for being picked.

Gina, when you allow tomatoes to ripen fully on the vine, what proportion of them do you lose to wildlife, would you say? 50%, 20%, 100%. I would say doing some quick math, we've lost about 20 to 25%. And if you do it your way, and if you bag ripen them your way, how much do you lose to predation? Probably about 5 to 10%. 5% to 10%. Okay.

What do you think about that? Is that worth the risk to you, Jay? the loss of tomatoes of about, you'll lose about 10 to 15% of your tomatoes if you do it your way. It is worth it to me. But that's part of the struggle every year is to learn how to keep the pests away better.

So it's just like there's a learning curve. What ideas do you have? Well, now I'm starting to think that greenhouse, maybe I just need to run some electricity into it with some exterior venting and grow hot house tomatoes in the greenhouse. Yeah. Would they be sufficiently warmed by the sun to your liking at that point?

It would be hard to keep them from burning. Cooking. Cooking. Yeah. Turn into tomato sauce on the vine. You need to run some air in there, right, to make sure that it doesn't get too hot. Absolutely. But it does happen.

People grow them that way. Which one of you eats more tomatoes, Gina, would you say? I think I eat more tomatoes. Jay, which one of you loves tomatoes more? I'd say I am definitely the tomato lover. So your quality, she's quantity. Yes. Sounds like you weren't sure about that answer.

Are you afraid you're going to get in trouble? No. Blink three times if you're going to get in trouble, Jay. What's the best way to eat a tomato? Don't think about it. Just answer, Jay. Off the vine with a shaker salt in the other hand. Gina.

The best way to eat a tomato is to slice into it and sprinkle some salt on it and eat it right out of your hand. Well, you are both correct, and you answered the question the same way. So I pronounce you spouse and spouse. You may remain married. I will now step into the hot house chambers we have here at the Solar Power Institute of WERU to consider my decision. I'll be back in a moment with my verdict as well as your chance, Jay and Gina, to guess the obscure cultural reference and win the case. regardless of my verdict. Please rise as baby Jay exits the courtroom.

Gina, how are you feeling about your chances right now? I'm feeling pretty good about my chances. At the end of the day, I have science on my side. Oh, really? Because you said, well, whatever. Well, we watched the video and we saw what it said. Look, what's important is that you have a hunk on your side. at the end of the day.

More hunks equals a W. Jay, you're a pretty solid hunk. How are you feeling about your chances? I'm feeling pretty good. I think that picture of the green tomatoes really said a lot for my case. We'll see what baby Jay has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment.

Judge Sean Hodgeman, we're taking a quick break from the case. I got something to plug. What is it? August 21st, which is just a couple of A couple days after this episode comes out, I am hosting a screening of my favorite movie, A Thousand Clowns, as part of American Cinematech's Friend of the Fest, podcast slash movie festival.

A Thousand Clowns is a movie from the early 60s that was a Best Picture nominee. It was also a Best Play nominee at the Tonys. Previous to that, it's about a comedy writer who in the film is played by Jason Robards and his nephew of whom he is The Guardian. And it is an incredibly beautiful story about someone who is deeply committed to not taking their life seriously, having to engage with the idea of taking their life seriously on behalf of others, specifically a child. And it's going to be a great time.

So if you're in L.A., Maximumfund.org slash events has the link. It's going to be at the Las Felas 3, Friday, August 21st in the afternoon. We're going to have a great time. If you don't buy tickets in advance walk up, I think you'll be able to get in. It's going to be a really great time, and I'll look forward to meeting everybody and sharing this movie. I'm so grateful to the folks from American Cinema Tech for tracking down a 35-millimeter print of the movie to show. It's going to be a great time. You know, up here in Maine, I don't have a chance to go out to the movies that often because they're all about an hour away from me.

But I'll tell you what, there is nothing like going to the movies. And I know that this movie has meant a lot to you for so long, Jesse. I've seen this movie, too. It's really wonderful. So please go and join Jesse and see this wonderful movie. And if you're concerned that a thousand clowns are too many clowns, I don't think there are actually that many clowns. There's no clown.

The movie has no clown. I can't emphasize enough. No clowns in the movie. Meanwhile, I don't have any movie screenings coming up. But as summer winds down here in Maine, I am still wonderfully grateful to WERU to Joel Mann. an outgoing general manager, Matt Murphy, an incoming general manager.

Kristen Stable. Kristen Stable. Sorry, Kristen. I'll remember your name next year. WERU is a wonderful radio station that not only hosts Judge John Hodgman plays incredible. DJ chosen free form music

for the community, by the community, and of the community each and every day. I hope that you will consider supporting WERU by listening to it at WERU.org. And if you were able to become a member that is very helpful to them because, like all public media, they lost a lot of cash when the corporation for public media was done away with for bitter, spiteful reasons. So, please listen to w-eru.org. And that's all I got going on. So maybe we should get back to the case.

Indeed, let's get back to the case. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom with his verdict and an opportunity for you to guess the obscure cultural reference. All right, this is for all of the cherry tomatoes, if either of you, Gina or Jay, can guess the obscure cultural reference, I will rule summarily in yours favor. Do you even remember what the obscure cultural reference was? Would you like me to read it to you again? Would you please? Yes, I will.

Then Prince Rainbow saw that Elear Ra had been as good as his word and that he himself must keep his promise to. He let the rabbits out of the marshes of Kelphazine and they multiplied everywhere. and from that day to this, no power on earth shall keep a rabbit out of a vegetable garden for LRRRRA prompts them with a thousand tricks the best in the world. Gina, what's your guess?

There are so many Joko cruising nerds who are yelling at their podcast players right now. I know. I was going to guess Attack of the Killer Tomatoes. That did cross my mind. I'll write that guess down. I think this is Welsh fairy tales

Whoa. Hang on, Jay. I'm still writing down Attack of the Killer Tomatoes right here. Anyone I'm watching on YouTube can see I'm really doing it. Now, what was your guess? Welsh fairy tales.

Welsh fairy tales. Guess what? Good news. I get to render a verdict because all guesses are wrong. Oh, Joko Cruisers, I also scream with you in agony. Imagine me screaming

silhouetted against nighttime sky. Just like the poster for the animated movie version of Watership Down by Richard Adams. Watership Down. Specifically, chapter 15, the story of the king's lettuce. Oh, updike. All right, then to my verdict. So, science is on Gina's side. I believe the gardening hunk that when you pick a tomato at its breaking point,

it will continue to ripen on a counter and I believe Southern Living when they say a little rotten banana air will help it along as well in a paper bag. I've heard that before. I know a lot of people do it.

Gina, your tomatoes didn't look so hot to me but I believe that they got to where you wanted them to be. I'm sure they taste good. And I would suggest since we've already blown our explicit language warning. Why don't you try farting the bag, too? See if that helps.

Here's the thing. I don't think farting will help. But I say that to illustrate that science itself can sometimes be a little both magical and unromantic, if you see what I mean? Like what you describe, Jay,

of standing out there in the garden, you see that perfect tomato with maybe just a couple of drops of dew on it. and it's red and it's and it's fragrant and it's heavy for its weight and you just pick that thing off and it's hot from the sun and you just dust off an a fit or two and just eat it like an apple and then with a little salt too good idea that is experientially so much more pleasurable seeming everyone likes what they like so maybe you prefer someone out there to eat tomatoes out of a banana bag.

But I think it speaks to the fact that so much of what we, so much of what we call eating is experiencing. It's experiencing the flavor of the food. Indeed, maybe even the flavonoids of the food or whatever the heck you were talking about, Jay. I hate to acknowledge it's experiencing the mouth feel. Oh, the worst feel in my mouth is saying the word mouth feel. but it's also the moment in time when you're eating a food.

It's the place where you're eating it, the slant of sunlight in the window or on the tomato, obviously the company in which you're eating it. It was nice of you guys do that test for the purposes of a podcast, but I think you would agree that's not a fun way to eat a tomato in a sort of scientific environment where you're trying to prove that the other person

that you love the most is wrong about something. That's not a great meal situation. Some things taste better in different places. The fried clams at the fishnet are better than the fried clams at Baggedo's lunch. There, Joel, I said it.

So true. Thank you, Joel. Some people get mad at me when I say that. But the fried clams at the fish net you enjoy, and I do enjoy. them while eating them next to a busy road. Whereas the fried clams at Bag of Duce Lunch, I'm looking over a tidal estuary, where they also have a big cut out of the silhouette of a big foot painted red, white, and blue.

Sometimes that's better. Scientifically, they're pretty comparable sets of fried clams. The batter is lighter. The fish net, that's what makes them better. But you know what I'm saying is scientifically, by the time you're eating a test tomato in the kitchen. When the warmth of the sun and the experiential moment of plucking it off the vine, essentially they are the same tomato.

But even then, Gina, you acknowledged that the vine-ripened tomato was better. So how am I going to rule? People like what they like, and that really goes for tomatoes. Tomatoes have a very brief moment of gloriousness, and then they're garbage. It's interesting to me that you would rip an unripe tomato in a paper bag along with a garbage banana because essentially you're acknowledging

these are ready to be thrown away. But a tomato that is at its perfect moment why all the woodland critters of the world know it's better to eat it right off the vine in the sunshine. Just like the animal you married feels, Gina. I can't rule that one is better than the end. other. I can't because the way Jay likes a tomato is different than the way you like a tomato. Jay likes a tomato on plenair in the sunshine, little bluebirds landing on his shoulder,

bucolic as F, as they say, in explicit language podcasts. Whereas you really savor a tomato most, knowing not only for its own flavor, and not only knowing that you've grown it, but knowing that you've deprived a raccoon of a meal, that you have protected your investment, you have protected as many tomatoes as possible for you, because you grew them and you love them and you care about them until you chew them up and eat them.

And even then you like them. And that's a perfectly reasonable pathway to pleasure as well. I see zero, you know, we have settled law. that couples who live together should get the largest bed that they can afford and fit in their home and ideally have two separate beds and two separate villas that are connected by a reflecting pool. Being a couple does not necessarily mean and a cohabitating couple to boot

does not necessarily mean you have to agree on everything. Some pleasures. Cohabitating means you get to experience most intimate pleasures together, but some pleasures are so intimate, you don't need to experience them together. and looking at your variety of options for tomato protection and techniques that you've that you've perfected over the years of different ways to grow things on fire escapes and buckets and everything else, there is no reason for the two of you not to have separate tomatoes. It is not a threat to your relationship. It is not a threat to your integrity.

And while I appreciate that despite all of your ability, to maturely resolve your conflicts. You work very, very hard to find some conflict that could bring you onto a podcast. The reality of it is, I don't even think either of you cares so much about being right or wrong.

You're just too good-natured. Therefore, Jay, grow your own tomatoes. Gina, read Watership down. If I forced to make a ruling, I will rule, in favor of science.

That, Jay, the tomatoes, Gina could probably be picking them a little bit closer to the breaking point. Acknowledged. But the tomatoes that are ripening in that bag are ripening in the same scientific process that they're ripening out there in the sun and the vine. Hunk told me so. It's fine. But I can't deny that you experience that you take pleasure in tomatoes in a different way from Gina. And you each deserve to have your own pleasure. So I guess I'm ruling in favor of science,

but my order is grow your own individual tomatoes so that you can each enjoy them your own way. I also am ordering you to do a proper blind taste test of a bag tomato versus a vine tomato where you are really blind and you're both wearing blindfolds and eating tomatoes because that will be fun to watch for us. And it would be even more fun to watch

if when you're filming the blind taste test, you're both blindfolded. That's what I want to see. Even the person who's operating the camera has to be blindfolded. Have a big old mess of tomatoes. Now, we have plenty of friends who would be excited to get in on this. Yeah, get some friends together and do a real taste test and do a video and send it into us and we'll publish the results

and make it as messy as possible. You know what I mean? Some real hot beef steak action. Speaking of critters, I'm glad to say that our most beloved woodland critter, Nick Offerman informs me that the gavel is done. And it is being shipped across the nation as we speak. I do not have a gavel yet, though,

to bang on the studio table here. so in its place, this may be the last book that I throw at anybody. And it's a good one. It's called Inside Sina. It's an oral history of the Society for Indecency to Naked Animals. Jesse, are you familiar with this project? I'm not familiar, no. So they advocated and invented a movement for putting clothes on animals.

So they wouldn't walk around naked all the time. Meanwhile, this book shall stand in for the sound of a gavel. I rule in favor of science, but separate tomatoes. Gonzo the Great will grow a tomato plant whilst playing the 1812 overture on the violin. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman, baby Jay, exits the courtroom. Gina, how are you feeling right now? I feel good.

I feel very good about this. How about you, Jay? Where are you at? I think it's a very fair verdict. And it'll keep us from a, we can compare our results. And then we can argue about it again next year. Well, Gina, Jay, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Oh, it's been our pleasure.

It's been an absolute pleasure. And I knew that Judge Johnny would have sage advice for us. So thank you. Across this great nation, almost everyone has been affected in one way or another by this terrible tomato onslaught. Mrs. Williams, I understand your husband is missing. Yes, he is. Hi, I'm Gina. I'm Jason. And we are here to follow the judgment of Judge John Hodgman.

We were officially ordered by the court to record a blind taste testing of our... Tomatoes. So we have three tomatoes. We have a Whole Food Store-Bot tomato. Boo. Boo. We don't know yet. We have a tomato that I picked prematurely according to him, but not according to me, and let

ripen in the bag. And then we have a third tomato. A vine ripened tomato, the way that God intended tomatoes to ripen on a vine, picked fresh. And we are going to try them out now. Blighly. Blighly. Oh, that is so good. Okay, the skin on this one was amazing.

I had a great mouth feel. It had good flavors. It was water. It had more water than the first one, but not as much water as that second one that was too watery. Well, this is bland. This one was very tasty. The skin was a little tougher on this one, I think. Yeah, I think the first one had more, like a little bit more flavor to it.

But they were both on par with each other where the second one was clearly. Yeah. The third one... A whole food's tomato. It seemed... I hope. The second and the third ones, maybe it's my imagination, but they seemed a little less warm. This is one?

Mm-hmm. Oh, okay. Vibright bend Bind Bind Number three Number three is the back

right bend and they were so close that I would not say it was a crazy difference No Another Judge John Hodgman case In the books And speaking of cases

We need yours We can't do the show without them Do you share a hobby with a partner, spouse, friend, or roommate that you really love, but you don't like the way they do it? Is it okay to dive into a new knitting project without knitting and blocking a gauge swatch first? I certainly know what that means.

It wasn't written for me by Jennifer Marmer. Thanks, Jennifer. I bet we're going to get a lot of letters about gauge swatches, truly. In Majong, here we go, this is my world. Should there be a limit on how long it takes for the person to make their next move, there should be? Send us all your disagreements, hot takes, and controversial opinions to Hodgman

at maximum fund.org or go to maximum fund.org slash jj-j-ho. We're going to have swift justice in just a second. First, our thanks to funny film fan from Reddit for naming this week's episode. You can join us on Reddit at R-Slas Maximum Fun. That's where we ask for those suggestions. Evidence and photos from the show are, of course, at maximum fun.org.

They're also on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. We're on TikTok and YouTube at Judge John Hodgman, So join us there for video. John, what's our YouTube comment of the week? Our YouTube comment of the week, this week comes from Captain Spalding One. Hooray for Captain Spalding One. In the recent episode, Cheats and Desist, we had been discussing the misleading ad for mobile games like Royal Match.

Captain Spalding One says, John, that's me. Your beard is a perfect match for the king in the Royal Match game. Bring on the sponsorship. you look great in a crown. First of all, flattery will get you everywhere, but I know that my beard doesn't look as lustrous as that king's beard. That said, when I made fun of Lisa Kudrow

and Courtney Cox and all those stars for doing those royal match ads, I was speaking out of pure jealousy. Of course, I would love to do one. Please, Royal Match, put me in. I got half a beard. But thank you so much for the YouTube comment of the week. Make sure that you please go and check us out

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All right, swift justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment. Jesse, we're going to start posting these swift justices on our social media as well. That's why I have my phone here. So go ahead and hit me with some swift justice. Judge John Hodgman, Ace of Aces on R slash Maximum Fund says, my wife dislikes it when I lick her face. I say her discomfort is worth the scorn. Who's right?

first of all, it's not fun to cause your spouse discomfort. Second of all, see how you like it. That's what justice. The best comment on Reddit was just someone said, respectfully, boo. Respectfully, boo. Thank you for doing that respectfully. You can submit your cases to Judge John Hodgman at maximum fun.org slash JJHO.

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