Judge John Hodgman - No-show Contendere

Episode Date: September 17, 2015

Ted brings the case against his good friend Chris. They will make plans, but Chris will suddenly become unreachable when it comes time to meet up. Ted's calls and texts go unanswered. Ted says Chris needs to step up and let him know when his plans have changed. Chris says the plans weren't firm, so he's not entirely in the wrong. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm your guest bailiff, Jean Gray. This week, no show contender. Ted brings the case against his good friend, Chris. They will make plans, but Chris will suddenly become unreachable when it comes time to meet up. Ted's calls and texts go unanswered. Ted says Chris needs to step up and let him know when his plans have changed. Chris says the plans weren't firm, so he's not entirely in the wrong. Who's right? Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and issues the obscure cultural reference. and issues the obscure cultural reference. He explained that he had been contracted to ghostwrite an autobiography for a famous wrestler, but the deal fell through. His agent had arranged for him to keep the advance money, however, so now he was a little richer and wanted a change of pace. She was more interested in why the wrestler he had been contracted to write for was called Mighty Pipes Cabrera.

He wasn't just a wrestler, Vince said. He was also a tenor in the Louisville City Opera. That's fantastic, she said. Why did the book fall through? He was killed suddenly, Vince explained. In the ring. Guest bailiff Jean Grey, please swear them in. Ted and Chris, please rise and raise your right hands

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do I do Good Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, even though he has been known to employ smoke bombs as a way of leaving a venue or restaurant unannounced? Yeah, I do. I do. Okay. Thank you, Judge Hodgman. You may proceed. All right, Chris and Ted, I'm going to get to you in a second.

I have to say welcome to my friend Jean Gray, who is stepping in for reg bailiff Jesse Thorne, who is indisposed With other business At the moment Yes Jean I spent all summer With guest bailiff Summertime

Funtime Guest bailiff Monty Belmonte Now But I don't know How your summer went How did it go? I

It went It went pretty good I got to move Got a new backyard So yeah I'm pretty excited i didn't know the backyard came with a pit bull so just dealing with that and um i guess summer's not over because it's still ridiculous your backyard has a pit bull a pit bull in it yes is it owned by a human or is it feral it's kind of it's it owned, but they don't really display any, actually, case of ownership.

So that's kind of a problem. Is it a shared backyard? Yes, it is. Oh, I see. Okay, I got you. So technically it's a shared pit bull, I guess. Yeah, no, apparently. I did not know that it came with that.

Have you released any recordings or books? I mean, you're always coming out with projects, and i'd like the world to know about them so what what can we say about that before we move on to ted and chris still got um uh two projects that were released this summer both i sweater god and sakes and so so that's i sweater god yes that is the letter I, and then not swear to, sweater, like a cardigan or a jumper. Yes. And God, like the mythical man in the sky. Yes. Of many different stories.

And outfits. Indeed. And then the Sakes is the other recorded project, and that's spelled S-A-I-X. Do I remember that correctly? All right. And all of these recordings can be purchased at a reasonable fee, considering the talent behind them, at what? JeanGray.BandCamp.something? Calm.

You're very good at this. I probably could have figured out calm. Org. It's pretty well known that that's the most common suffix. Dot co dot za. What's za? Is that South Africa? It is South Africa, yeah.

Oh, okay, cool. You know me, I love the obscure internet suffixes, and I forget the regular normal ones. Well, I'm so glad that you're able to be here because it's always a joy having you and uh now ted and chris yes yes uh how how are your summers uh pretty good so far you know who's that who's speaking now uh this is this is chris all right we barely know each other you guys so you gotta help me out here a little i just it feels so familiar already so i feel like i've known you for a long time, Mr.

Or I'm sorry, Your Honor. This is Ted speaking. Hi, Ted. That was creepy. I understand. He gets that way sometimes. My summer has gone very well. It's been very warm up here in Portland, Oregon.

And we've been doing a lot of swimming and things like that so no complaints no they're very usually no complaints from portland oregon from anyone yeah that's true it's rather uncouth to be seen complaining about portland oregon yeah exactly complacency is really where it's at these days yeah that's the kicker complacency is where it's at. In Portland, Oregon. The Portland, Oregon chamber of non-commerce. Yeah, that's a T-shirt right there. So Ted and Chris, for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors,

do you happen to remember and can you name the piece of popular culture, well, let's say obscure culture that I quoted from as I entered this virtual courtroom. Let's see, Ted, you bring this case before me for justice. You go first guess. It didn't ring any bells,

but for some reason, the style. Make a guess. Kurt Vonnegut. Okay. Kurt Vonnegut. It sounded like Kurt Vonnegut. I'll make a note in the record that that is your guess. Chris, of Kurt Vonnegut. Okay. Kurt Vonnegut. It sounded like Kurt Vonnegut.

I'll make a note in the record that that is your guess. Chris, without saying that it is yes or no on Kurt Vonnegut, can you, would you guess the same or different? I would guess... I'm going to suggest you guess different. Faulkner? Sure, why not?

Just to be different. Horrible. Because he's another writer? Sure, why not? Just to be different. Horrible. Because he's another writer? Yeah, exactly. Ted's answer was really good, but I didn't want to just piggyback off of it. Ted's answer

was really good. Indeed, but all guesses are wrong. Of course they are. There's no way in the world that that was William Faulkner because it wasn't a whole bunch of run-on sentences from the point of view of a mentally challenged person.

Yeah. Shots fired. I take some very controversial positions here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Yeah. You know what william faulkner not that great no that's not no i was saying that was i was thinking that that's not the style it is not the style it's obviously not vana good either honestly i looked at a book on

my bookshelf and just read the first well both of them are very very uh flattering comparisons because the author of those paragraphs was a young John Hodgman. Oh, yeah. From my very first published short story in the Paris Review, you guys. Damn. In the issue number 141 from winter 1996. And the short story was called Ghosting. And that was the first thing I thought of when I read over the brief on this case, which involves a different kind of ghosting.

This was talking about ghost writing, and it's about a guy who sublets an apartment in New York and inherits the main tenant's stalker. But your story is about leaving parties without saying anything or before they even begin without saying anything, which is also called ghosting. And so that's what I thought of. It was the first thing I thought of, you guys, because I am a narcissist, and I usually think only of myself. Having reread this story now,

I am profoundly surprised that they published it. Very thrilling at the time, and even more implausible now that I look back on it. I thought it sounded very professional. Well, you know it was uh i i spelled all the words correctly and uh it was professionally edited by um by my hero george plimpton so that was a big thrill for me and it allows me to say something else that is true in my life that i like which is that i i'm i'm probably one of the very few people who've

been published both in the paris review and mad. As of this summer, I'm very happy. So enough bragging for me because it's not really a very good story. But I will say that there's a great, great, great story in that particular issue, number 141, if you want to dig up the issue or just buy her collection of short stories that it eventually appeared in. Our friend of the show, Elizabeth Gilbert, this is how I got to know her. She published in the same issue a short story called The Famous Torn and Restored Lit Cigarette Trick, which is the greatest short story of most times, I think.

Certainly from the Paris Review, issued number 141 from 1996. So there you have it. A little ancient history lesson for you two guys and a chance for me to plug something that I can't even sell anymore. It's very appreciated. In any case, let's talk about ghosting. Ted, you have filed the complaint against Chris. You say that Chris is a ghoster.

What does that mean to you and what's going on? I filed the case because Chris has had a tendency in the long amount of time that I've known him, um, to once we've made plans the following day or maybe two days out, you know, not really long-term when it comes time to engage in said plans. Um, I'll maybe try and contact him by calling or on text message or another popular social media website. And he'll just disappear. He goes off the radar and he won't be rediscovered. I feel like until a certain amount of time has passed that we'll both forget about it and we won't address it. And we'll just move onward with our,

um, our friendship and, and any other events we might, uh, engage in together. So it, it does not sound like a particularly sound foundation for a friendship where one person is discourteous to the other and the other person simply eats it and

pushes it down inside. And then no one ever mentions it again. You pretend that it never happened. It's a great foundation for a marriage, but you guys aren't married. You're friends. So what would you have me order specifically? It sounds like, Ted, your complaint is that Chris,

you and Chris will make some plans, and then you will attempt to follow up, and Chris just doesn't respond, and then the thing either happens without him or doesn't happen at all. Is that right? That's correct. And the issue it poses is that if I depend on those plans,

I don't make other plans. So working a regular job that is pretty much nine to five every weekday, the weekends are valuable time. And if I'm depending on at two o'clock, I'm engaging in this activity with Chris, two o'clock rolls around, or maybe even noon rolls around, he disappears. I've forfeited that day for other plans with people. Give me a specific example of how you've been inconvenienced.

So you're at your regular job rendering duck fat to put into French fries. Delicious. I know, right? Yeah. What is your regular job uh i'm an adolescent family therapist oh not as delicious okay so give me an example of how uh your your life has been inconvenienced a specific example which is of, the soul of narrative.

We ride motorcycles together regularly. Chris and I both own bikes and enjoy that. Now we're back in Portland, Oregon. For a second there, you sounded so respectable. We zoomed back in. And so when you ride them, they require a certain amount of work. So we all regularly work on bikes together. And not too long ago, we had slated for about, I think, 2 o'clock in the afternoon.

We'd meet at Chris's apartment to do some work on his bike and some work on mine as well. And so my girlfriend, who I also enjoy spending time with, equal to Chris, had wanted to know what I was up to that day and if maybe I could go with her and her daughters to the museum or to just, you know, go to a park and spend time together. And I said, no, I can't do that. I have to go do this at two o'clock with Christopher. So as I'm waiting for something later in the day, I'm missing out on plans that might take up much of the day.

Gotcha. And then Christopher didn't show up for the motorcycle hang? He just never responded. And I feel bad about showing up at somebody's home. I don't want to be like an angry mother at a teenager's bedroom door. With her motorcycle. With my motorcycle, yeah. And so I just sent him a few messages and called, I think, maybe once.

And he was just off the radar for about two days until he popped up again. For two days, you heard nothing back. It could be two. It could be a month. You never know. All right. Objection. A month.

That's a little ridiculous. Overruled. Okay. Solved. Objection. A month? That's a little ridiculous. Overruled. Okay. Solved. I don't think I've ever overruled an objection.

Yeah. I feel great about that. It was exciting. Yeah. I feel really powerful all of a sudden. You got a bump in my heart rate. So that would be one example and yeah it's about um it's the time frame um it differs depending on what what the event is or what we have going on in our respective lives so you would like me to to confirm it, that he reply in a reasonable amount of time. Is that, because I'm just looking at what the order is that I'm going to have to make. Just if he changes his mind and doesn't want to do it, just let me know.

Just let me know and that's all. All right. You know, I have no interest in guilting him, though I've probably done that in the past. Yeah. But if he's like, hey, I'm not going to do this anymore, I want to do something else, great, now I can make other plans. And we both can have a fun

Portland weekend. Alright. Thank you. Now, Chris, we're going to get to hear your side of the story. Okay. But I'm just feeling so excited about overruling you that i have to ask you a question why is what ted requests unreasonable you know it's it's not unreasonable um and i suppose like in the fairness of friendship and overruled sorry I'm just so sorry it was really good

I'm out of order I apologize I just I'm so excited about it um so yeah like I was saying I don't think that his uh recommendations or the judgment he wants rendered is unfair um you know

have I done those things in the past? Yeah, I have done those things. But I can... Why are you doing these things? I don't know. So, like, I've always kind of had, like, a little bit of, like, social anxiety kind of, like, quips. I wouldn't call them issues or anything like that, but, like...

So you're idiosyncrasies. but like your idiosyncrasies yeah my idiosyncrasies basically and part of it is like so ted's right like there'll be times where we'll make plans to do something and then for whatever reason say i'm out trying to get something done beforehand and it's not done beforehand and i can't get back in time or if last night took a really heavy toll on me and i'm just not out of bed yet. Like I won't respond. And in my head, it's easier to just not respond than to go through the process of verbally or textually letting somebody down and bumming them out. So I try to, I avoid those things. And I know that that's a silly response, but no, no, it's not silly. I mean, I certainly can't argue that not doing something is easier than doing

something. Yeah. Yeah. But I, I have some followup questions. First of all, what is, what is your age and what is the age of Ted?

So I am 31 and Ted will be 30 in December. Yeah. And you guys are 29 right now. You guys are longtime pals. Yeah. So Ted and are 29 right now. You guys are longtime pals. Yeah. So Ted and I first met in college. We both went to college together in Colorado, uh,

2003, four, 2004 is when Mike, essentially when we first met and went to school together. So you're not, so you're not from Portland, Oregon. No,

no, neither of us are from Portland. I'm actually from Alaska and Ted's from Wisconsin. And then we just ended up at school together or or we ended up at the same school after college. Where in Alaska are you from, Chris? I'm from Eagle River, Alaska, which is just about a little bit north of Anchorage, about 13 miles. So you guys moved to Portland, Oregon together? Sort of.

I moved out here with another friend at the time, and then Ted was kind of just traveling around, like figuring out where he was going to be or what he was going to do. He was applying to some different schools, and he could probably talk better to this. But then he kind of just... I was living in my car, Your Honor. Yeah, okay.

You were a hobo. So he... Yeah, that's right. Yeah. But an adventurous one and good-natured. Yeah, okay. You were a hobo. So he... Yeah, that's right. Yeah. But an adventurous one and good-natured. Yeah. So he traveled around

for a bit and... Unlike most cowardly hobos. Yeah. That's right. No hiding in the shadows for me. I'm drying off in the sun. All right. I'm light.

So he eventually did end up in Portland probably like five months after I did. Okay. And just, you know... Do you have an occupation, Chris? So he eventually did end up in Portland probably like five months after I did. Okay. And, uh, and you, do you have an occupation, Chris? I do have an occupation.

Yes, I do. Um, I'm like, I do sales and marketing account management for a local outerwear company that's based here in Portland, Oregon. Okay. Uh, okay. I won't say the name cause I know you hate that. Uh, is it Pendleton? It is not. It's much smaller. Oh, oh. Okay. I won't say the name because I know you hate that. Is it Pendleton? It is not.

It's much smaller. Oh, interesting. Is it just Pendle? You got it. That was it. No, it's not. That feels like a weird marketing attempt to youthify their brand. It's not Pendleton anymore. It's just Pendle.

Pendle it up, bros. You may be on to something. All right. Well, we'll leave it to our listeners' imaginations as to what it is you do all day because not only do you honor this podcast by not mentioning the brand, but also you are in sales and marketing

and you might as well be a sorcerer as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, I feel the same way sometimes. I don't know what that's all about. Let's just say you're a couple of young dudes who like to ride motorcycles. So it is literally easier not to respond. But let me ask you, Ted accused you of not responding within days. Is that is that true? Yeah yeah i would say that's correct but then he accused you of not responding within months and that's a long time and you objected and you may

recall i overruled it i do now i want to hear whether or not that's true the month no i don't think that there's ever been a whole four week span that has gone by that I have not replied to Ted whatsoever. I would say that the most time that I let go by would maybe be four days. I mean, that's only because it's a plan made at the very tail end of a weekend, and then you go into the work week, and life's crazy, you know? You're trying to make your way in the world. I arrived at an empty apartment that I thought you lived at. And you were gone. You were just gone.

But that's different. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. What happened, Ted? Excuse me, Chris. Ted? Well, Chris, and I don't want to vet too much of Chris's personal life, but he was dating a person and they had lived together. And, um, when, when Chris is in relationships, sometimes he's very focused in them, which I

admire and, um, other people may fall to the wayside, but so he had not been responsive for some time. And so I, I went against my better judgment and I became the teenager's mother I didn't want to be. And I did a pop in. I was going to stop by and just say, Chris, how have you been? It's been a little while. And there was nobody at his apartment because he had moved to a different apartment not far away. And he and his romantic partner had gotten new apartments there instead of living together, which I had no idea until I was leaving and saw his truck in front of a new

apartment building and called him and said, what's up? Are you hanging out with a friend over here? And he said, no, man, I live here now. Much to my surprise. Yeah. All right. Did you move without telling your friend ted i think there are some discrepancies in that story in that particular instance i did move

very suddenly but there were outside factors and why the move had to happen so quickly that it just it had to happen like yeah it was a roman it was a romance gone wrong right so wrong yeah romance gone wrong ted like it's also go what what a great time to seek support from your closest of friends or not ted ted ted chris doesn't need support he's from alaska i know i know he is culturally unused to relying upon or even seeing other humans. Yeah. I ask him if he needs help whittling down his logs that he chews on for breakfast and he'll never

need help with that. Also, you are young men. You are not a 45 year old family befamilied adults who are

sending out moving cards. Right. Exactly. Chris, I know that you are culturally unused to having another human being. How does it feel to be culturally

unused to it or to now have it to now have it it's a little off-putting sometimes but i bet you don't want it you don't know the thing is it's much appreciated i'm always reluctant to uh ask for it but when it when it happens it it's it's nice doesn't I'm going to rule in your favor. I'm just saying. I don't think that you would in any situation. I'm adding, I'm trying to tease out

what's, you know, I'm crux hunting right now. You know what I'm saying? I'm asking some leading questions. I'm hunting that crux. I'm always hunting that crux. Finding that crux. I'm always hunting that crux. Finding that crux. That's right. You will.

Yeah, Chris. Yeah. How come you make plans or seem to be going along with plans and then just decide to pull the plug and not do it? Well, sometimes these plans are made in really foggy states of mind late into the evening or early into the morning. And it's like, we should do this tomorrow. And I'm like, yeah, let's totally do it. And then the time comes and, you know, like I said, I'm either still recouping from the night before or I've tried to do other things.

And then my time management isn't the greatest. And then there are some times where like, we'll make the plan or the plan will be made. And let's say, for example, Ted wants to meet to do something at 11. Because there have been cases where I've been like, okay, like, let's we're still meeting at 11. He's like, Oh, I gotta go do this. And I gotta go do this. So let's make it like 130 instead. And I'm just like, that wasn't the plan. I don't adhere to this plan anymore. plan is null and void and then i'm out of that plan and but you don't even bother do you do you say that in a in a conversation or a text or you just you're like move it to 130 forget it all all the social contract has been broken and and you are dead to me and i will not respond that's that's the flavor

of it your honor as much as i don't want that to be the case that is the thought that goes through my head it's like you someone has made a change to a plan therefore i don't have to adhere to any of the contractual obligations communicative or otherwise and then that's my my scapegoat is it is it true as submitted in in ted's uh affidavit that you jumped out of a moving vehicle to get out of a social situation okay so i mean yes there was all right so it's true i it is true um so what happened there So I didn't jump out of the truck to remove myself from a social situation. I jumped out of a moving truck to circumnavigate danger. Was it another romance gone wrong?

It was headed that way, and I was not ready to be a victim. But I did end up in that situation because I ghosted out of a party without telling any of my friends that i was leaving and i was probably in a state of mind where somebody should have been with me while i tried to make my way home uh and so i can tell the whole story did you did you hitchhike and get picked up by a trucker yeah so basically what happened is um we went to school in a really small town in colorado up in the mountains like it's kind of one of those schools that you go there because you want to take advantage of the outdoors while also getting a great education in the valley um

so small town middle of winter it's a house party that we're going to before everyone kind of goes home for christmas break at this time of the year, they put this big giant Christmas tree right in the intersection of the two main roads, one going east-west, one going north-south. And they have this big tree lighting ceremony, and then we're off to this party. And I have had a problem with this ghosting thing my entire life. But I remember Ted and some of my other friends at the time were like, all right, Chris, like sat me down and like, almost like held my shoulders and was like, if you need to leave this party, just tell one of us and one of us will

leave with you. And I was like, no, it's going to be fine. So I ended up, we're at the party, we're hanging out. I got, I guess a wave of social anxiety. And my first thought was not, okay, let's adhere to the plan and make sure that I tell someone. It was like, you need to be away from this social situation right now. So I left. And unfortunately, I was very inebriated, as you would be at a college Christmas party. So I got really turned around in town. And I ended up walking, I don't know know two miles the opposite direction of my house which essentially put me at the edge of town um all the while I didn't have a jacket because we were at

like an ugly sweater party and the party was close to where we were so we just walked over in our sweaters and then you got turned you got turned around at the Christmas tree right I got turned around the Christmas tree and I'll just take and i'll just take this moment here to pause and speak directly to the children who listen to this podcast regularly hello hello children i hope you are driving safely while you listen uh obviously this is a family friendly podcast but we talk about openly what adults do all the time and uh and adults occasionally get intoxicated and i think the the moral of the story is uh don't go to college in colorado or wear a jacket if you decide to go out to a party no offense no offense to the fine universities of colorado but but a lot of partying goes on there and it's in

an it's in an environment where if you make the wrong step you will die by falling off a cliff or freezing to death or being attacked on something icy yeah exactly negative three thousand that's a very fair point, actually. But I look forward to the letters from the University of Colorado at Boulder. I'm sure that they are printed on hemp paper now. So what happens next is you get picked up by a trucker. I want to get to the trucker. I'm glad you filled in all the details. So what happened is I was so far from where i lived at that time that i was

like i'm just gonna like get on this main drag that goes through town and someone will pick me up and i'll get dropped off and then i'll go home because i knew by that point that i was where i was so of course it's like two o'clock in the morning no one's driving through town um but a big like kind of shipping highway runs through you know this college town so this truck semi truck comes through and i throw my thumb out and he pulls over and he picks me up and he asked me where I, where I'm going. And I tell him that there's a McDonald's like right at the edge of town, just drop me off there. My apartment is behind that McDonald's. I can get home from there. And to my recollection, he looks over at me. He's like, okay, no problem. So we're driving, so we're driving. And then I see this McDonald's

go past me on the on the left hand side and i'm like okay like that's kind of weird like maybe there's two mcdonald's in this town that i've been going to college in for quite a while maybe i'm just like not in the right state of mind to know what's going on and then we kept going farther and farther out of town i noticed that the the town that the lights of the city are fading away there's no more like street lights i know we're pretty much headed you know east towards denver and i start to like kind of get anxious and i ask him i'm like hey man i need to be dropped off at that mcdonald's and again to my recollection he says yeah i know and it just keeps driving and then panic set in yeah and i was like

oh this is one of those situations that you read about in newspapers or you see on lifetime movies yeah like i'm in one of those situations and so i'm going through all these scenarios of how i'm gonna like what i'm gonna do if something weird happens and right when i'm going through the scenarios this car pulls out from kind of like an auxiliary road and kind of cuts him and cuts him off to get in front of him. And so he slows down. And again, my next thought without even giving it review was, all right, we're at 20 miles an hour. Just jump out of the truck. This is, you know. Yeah.

This is, you know, you don't want to be a victim. You want to just get out of this truck. So I open the door. I yell thanks for the ride. And then I jumped out of the truck into a snow bank. And then I rolled up a couple times. And I up and i just started sprinting uh back towards town and along my sprint these three girls coming the opposite direction picked me up and drove me back to my apartment and then ted bundy arrived yeah uh no three uh yeah i i just just, if you don't mind.

Cast Bailiff Gene. I'm feeling, I'd love a moment to collect my thoughts. Yes. I just want to ask Chris if maybe he hadn't ever at this point seen a movie or read a book of any kind to let him know that getting hitchhiking into a semi was probably a bad situation at any point, especially in a horror movie setting such as Colorado with an ugly sweater. It just sort of had all the makings of a story gone wrong. And then after rolling down a snowbank,

immediately got into another car of strangers. Yeah, but that was Charlie's Angels. That was three girls. Right. You know what I mean? Like, that's the car you wait for. I mean, I've seen the Warriors. That's true. Oh, The Warriors. That's true.

Oh, great movie. That's true. The Lizzies in The Warriors lead the warriors astray. And it was so cold out. If people have not seen The Warriors, that's that great documentary film about gang rivalries in New York City where every gang in New York City seemed to be geographically randomly assigned to a neighborhood that had nothing to do with the people who lived there.

So, for example, the toughest gang, which was the... The Orphans. Well, no, I was thinking the toughest gang. So, first of all, you had the Warriors, which is your fairly typical multiracial gang in Coney Island because that's what gangs are known for, right? People from all different walks of life coming together. You have black people, Hispanic people, white dudes.

That's usually how gangs form in gritty urban settings, right? And also with feathers and leather vests. So a must-have. And then you had your gangs that did cosplay as baseball players or mimes, which was really terrifying in 1979. And then the toughest gang in New York were the black karate dudes, the Gramercy Riffs. Gramercy Riffs. Because apparently their turf was Gramercy Park, one of the wealthiest enclaves in New York City.

Very dangerous. It's how they could afford their robes. But then as the warriors were trying to go home, they fell in with the Lizzies, which is an all-female gang, and they betrayed them. It's all a parable of the, what is it? Homer's The Odyssey. Yes.

Did you know that? It's an allegory. I did not make that connection yeah well at the time yeah well they're the sirens right yeah they're the sirens exactly yeah maybe maybe you should have in college you should have spent a little less time going to crazy sweater parties and a little more time sitting by yourself in a dark room watching movies from the 70s. Like, I got my education at Yale University. Yeah. I guess my biggest fault was believing in the kindness of humanity.

It's all of ours. Well, you know, Hitchhiker, here's the thing about that story. And here again, I'd like to speak to the children who are listening to this podcast while driving down the American road. First of all, good for you, children, for getting your driver's license at the age of nine and for not hitchhiking. It can be very dangerous. And it's one of those things where it goes okay, I think, most of the time. But when it goes wrong, it goes real wrong.

Very wrong. And the truth is that you were in a situation where it was going wrong. I mean, there was no other explanation for why that guy wasn't dropping you off where you needed to go. You were being kidnapped and you did what you had to do. Right. And there was a good 60 miles between the town that I was going to school in and, you know, the next, like, actual town. You know how specificity is the soul of narrative? Yeah.

Maybe there's a little bit too much specificity going on. I don't need to know how many miles there were. I'm just saying, there was a stretch. It could have been 75 degrees Fahrenheit with a clear sky and only 58 miles between the two towns. The point is you got into the cab of a of a trucker who was not taking you where you wanted to go and he and it was clear that he was making a different decision that could not he couldn't he did not have your best intentions in mind well

that's a terrifying and uh and cautionary and i think for all of us sobering tale right about the dangers of of uh of hitchhiking um uh i hitchhiked to first grade once but that's another story uh it went that was one that went right you may have noticed but it could have gone really wrong uh because i missed the school bus in Brookline, Massachusetts. In any case, it all goes back to you leaving this party because you felt like you just had to get out of there. Right. And your friends had already talked to you, like, don't do it.

Don't leave here without letting us know. And you did it. So you've mentioned social anxiety a couple of times. And I want to get a sense of, is this just a phrase that you're using? Or do you have real panic attacks? Shallow breath? Raised heartbeat? Try to separate this from your intoxication.

So there have been some situations where I'll get really anxious know really anxious and get like a race heartbeat and my pole starts racing and i always think that at that time i'm having a heart attack but it's happened very rarely like most situations just it's mainly just like i don't want to be here i don't want to have to like like everyone else is having a good time like me being like all right everyone now stop having a good time and pay attention to me while i say that I'm leaving. And then you berate me with questions of why I'm leaving. I'm just not interested in that. And then thinking about having that conversation just makes me want to just leave without saying anything. But you're not having panic attacks when you realize you have to go eat some eggs with your friends that morning. No. Ted, I have a, I have a question for you.

morning no ted i have a i have a question for you what part of wisconsin are you from uh right in the middle a place called stevens point stevens point wisconsin i bet it's lovely chris are you gonna are you and ted and your respective special friends if you have if you're going with anyone at the time are you gonna come are you gonna come see my show in portland oregon on october 15th uh yeah we're actually really very excited excited to go see that show are you really gonna show up yeah i've already got my tickets i don't have mine yet but I'm going to get them. My lovely and dear girlfriend purchased them for her and I. Chris isn't invited. He may bail. Alright.

Thank you very much, girlfriend. It'll be interesting to see if you show up. And I will make a point of scanning the audience for you. Oh, God. Alright. Teddy, baby. Chris knows when he's not responding to you or when he's leaving the house what is in his mind and what is going on in his world. But when he blows you off this way, how does it make you feel?

I mean, first off, which is ultimately a bad feeling. Like, I like to plan stuff with people and I'll pump the brakes. If somebody else doesn't want to do stuff, it's like, great, that's fine. You know, I understand a maximum of the show is you like what you like. And I agree with that wholeheartedly. So if somebody makes plans and they change their mind, I just need to just let me know, because you letting me know is a result of your understanding that it sucks to have your plans messed up and it sucks to be inconvenienced. That's all I want to be owed is just, Hey, I don't want to mess up your day.

So I will do this, this little task of saying I'm out, not going to do it. Just when you know, you're not going to do it so that I can enjoy my day. Cause if a friend won't do that, it feels pretty bad. Cause I know like strangers or coworkers that will do that. How do you feel about that, Chris? Uh, I mean, I feel really do you feel about that, Chris? I mean, I feel really bad hearing that, honestly. It makes me feel like a really horrible friend. I don't want Ted to feel like he's the only one putting effort into a friendship

and that I'm breaking his heart every time I ghost on him. So, yeah, I mean, you know, I don't feel good about it. And I know it's not done of malice. It's who Chris is, and I love who Chris is. He's a dear friend to me and has been for a long time and will continue to be for many more years. But, I mean, come on, you've got to knock it off. Just let me know.

Judge, if you don't mind, can i ask a couple of questions of uh just short questions sure um ted about how many times would you say that uh this had happened the ghosting had happened with Chris before it started to really bother you? And then maybe over the years, like, is it say 20 times or 350 times? I mean, if I have a car whose engine makes a weird noise, I still love the car. And I, I, I accept that the noise is part of my car now. And so I don't hate the car, or I'm not bothered by the car. I just say, I understand this is how I need to navigate this automobile. It'll be clunky sometimes. But over the 10 years, give or take one or two, we've been friends. I mean, we're probably at 80 to 100-ish.

Over 10 years? So average in 10 a year, maybe. Break it down to like 1.5 a month. But it's like-ish. Over 10 years. So average in 10 a year, maybe. Break it down to like 1.5 a month. But it's like hellish. Because you want to feel like they care.

And Chris, about how many times that you'd say in your I'm going to think my answer and then not type it out or not phone it out, do you actually feel like, hey, maybe I'm doing something wrong? Is it only when, I guess, Ted responds with his sadness and disdain, or do you immediately feel it, but then still don't follow through? No, like, I don't feel it immediately, because sometimes he'll be like, hey, what's up?

What's the plan? And then that's it. He doesn't say anything else. And he'll like, go do something else. But then there are times where like, he'll message me a few more times. And then I know that it's he's really like trying to figure it out when he just types my name in all caps and adds like 10 s's to it and exclamation points because then i'm like and then i feel really bad not answering then but then i usually do answer when it gets to that point a day later and and one more short question for uh for chris um in your lady relationships has this been a big deal as well? No.

It hasn't. It's actually probably the complete opposite. To add a little dynamic to the mess. I know where I stand now. Hey, are you guys still talking out here? Yeah.

I left 10 minutes ago. I've been in my chambers. I just didn't say goodbye. I'm sorry. I just didn't feel like dealing with you anymore. So I have to go into my chambers. I feel a way. You're making a lot of noise. And so could you just quiet down a little bit?

Because I'm coming. I'm coming to my decision now. I'm going to go back in my chambers and I'm going to make my decision and I'll be back in a moment. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. All right. I've gotten the answers to my questions as well. And we will be right back. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

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Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. One of the things I enjoyed most hearing through the very thin walls of my virtual chambers was Ted making an analogy to his friend Chris as a car that makes a funny noise when you have a car that makes a funny noise you get used to it and you and you learn to deal with it which is true if the funny noise uh is a clinking or a clanking and you maybe are a young person in your life and you don't know how to fix a car yourself and maybe you don't want to go through all the trouble of having it looked at by a professional and the expense of the repair that it might involve but sometimes the car is on

fire and and that's not something you just get used to and there's a little bit of Chris that's a car on fire. Part of this, you know, you know how I'm always looking for that crux. And I do think that there is a, there is a, an element of crux in that Ted, you are from the Midwest where people are kind to each other and look out for each other and are considerate of each other, even to their own self-abnegation. To a fault. Yeah. And Chris is from the true wilderness.

Chris, you know, you referred to yourself as, yeah, I'm kind of a hobo. You're not a hobo, Ted. You're from central Wisconsin. kind of a hobo. You're not a hobo, Ted. You're from central Wisconsin. You're no hobo. Chris flagged down a semi. You know, the hobos of the Great Depression lit out to ride the rails out of poverty, out of wanderlust, out of mental illness, and out of personality aberration. They were a desperate crew of seekers, and they were not necessarily happy, nor were

they singing railroad songs all the time. What they were singing was songs like Big Rock Candy Mountain in order to lure young people to go with them on the hobo trail and to be their servant. And Chris, he's a hobo. He has a profound independent streak

such that if he doesn't feel like writing you back, he's not going to write you back. I bet confirming plans isn't something that happens a lot in, what is it, Eagles Beak, Alaska? Eagle River, Alaska. I am going to start a petition to rename it Eagle Beak. Eagles Beak. I would sign that. Yeah. You know, Alaska is a place, as far as I know from my friend, the Alaskan John Roderick, who, if he is listening to this podcast, I'm sure has lots to say on this subject and is

probably saying it out loud even as he listens. But Alaska is a place where people don't see each other a whole lot is that right chris uh yes and no i mean you see people like when you see everyone at school and when you go to work but like yeah there's a there's a certain like uh expectation of aloneness and privacy i would say at least in my experience growing up there you see it you see them when you see them you know what i mean if you don't see yeah you don't see yeah right exactly yeah and if you don't see them it may mean it may mean that they don't uh uh they've got something else going on or maybe they had to leave their apartment real fast because of a romantic

misadventure or maybe uh just like in alaska maybe they've just wandered out into the cold to die. And I think that that's a little bit, to my ears, a little bit of the imbalance that's going on here. And I think that, Chris, you like your friend, right? Yeah, I love Ted. He's my best feelings because that's not where you come from. And the truth is that Chris wouldn't care if you were as inconsiderate to him as he is routinely to you 10 times a year. I would never do that. Yeah. I mean, I know, I know. I mean, but, but the thing is it wouldn't bother Chris if you did. And this is always an infuriating thing between friends.

When, when, what they just come from different worldviews and it's like, yeah, I'm sorry. I didn't call you. I don't ever expect you to call me. And it's like, yeah, I'm sorry I didn't call you. I don't ever expect you to call me. Why are you mad at me for going off the grid for five days? I wouldn't care if you died. It's a really, it's just, to that degree, it's a car that's making a funny noise. And it is indeed just your job to to tolerate it right because all friends are cars

making their own weird funny noises but to the degree that uh that this car is on fire uh chris you're not in alaska all right you're in you're in the you're in the lower portion of the country and and there and it is reasonable to adjust culturally somewhat but it is also concerning to me i mean obviously this is a story from college but you're not that far out of college and you've spoken a little bit of this compulsion to leave the party uh even even when you you had made arrangements or had promised to your friends that you wouldn't do that, that you just couldn't not do it. And when you couple that, and you also spoke of actual panic attacks. So, you know, social anxiety disorder, as I have learned this afternoon from WebMD,

A social anxiety disorder, as I have learned this afternoon from WebMD, is, you know, one of its only symptoms is that when contemplating or social events or in the midst of social events, that a person would have a physical reaction that is consistent with a panic attack, shortness of breath, physical symptoms. So when I asked you, do you ever have panic attacks? You said, yes, I have had panic attacks. But in your mind, you're like, oh, only two or three. Like that's something that's going on in your life. Like that you can think of two or three that come to mind means, yes, you're having them and second of all when uh when you agree when ted says oh he's only disappeared in this way maybe 10 times a year and you're like that's not bad oh no no that's bad that's bad and the reason that it's okay

and the reason that it's bad isn't isn't that uh you aren't entitled to your own privacy and and if you are you might want to talk to someone about if you're really feeling social anxiety and and and and maybe i'm overstating it but you know you might want to talk to a professional maybe if you know if you happen to know a family and child therapist in your life isn't that what you do ted what is it you do i am i am that professional i work with anxiety disorders all the time and and and i don't think chris chris chris's big crux in my own opinion and i know that it's not out there with the true crux finder but it's just anxiety is most often easily dealt with,

with avoidance. If, if it's uncomfortable and we dodge it and it doesn't get more uncomfortable, we'll probably repeat it. So I, I see the, the utility of a behavior that gets you off the hook. Um, it's just tough for the other people who who are involved i think like i i get that if you don't want to do it it feels better not to um but it feels bad to be taken for granted all right and that's a tough thing ted i i appreciate your feelings but i don't care about the thing is that I am sad that your feelings are hurt, and I think Chris is too, and that may modify his behavior naturally, right? But also, the two things I will say that mandate not just action on Chris's part, but my ruling, which will become clear in a moment, is one, if you are potentially acting out of anxiety-sparked avoidance or are feeling compelled to do things that you already have agreed not to do,

you should examine that in your life and see if it needs a little bit more attention, whether or not you go to Ted as your therapist. I think that would be a terrible idea. Ted is totally wrapped up in his own feelings. Right? Amen. Finally, somebody gets me. Amen. Finally, somebody gets me.

You need someone who doesn't care about you the way you don't care about Ted. And then the other thing is that it's okay if you hurt Ted's feelings. Ted will get over it and learn and grow. But you can't disappear for days on end and not expect your friends to worry about whether you're alive or dead. That's just, that's the social contract right there. I know it's different in Alaska. No one cares whether you die there, but down here you have to let people know you're alive, right? Especially if

you have a history of jumping into trucks you know what i mean like so what i say and this is going to be my order i do find in ted's favor but in order to maintain your your cultural legacy of independence and uh and not caring i would say that when Ted asks you to confirm a plan or simply wishes to know that you are alive, you do not need to reply to him with words. You must choose a single emoji that will just be a ping back, letting him know that he is not texting your grave, but you're just on planet Chris right now, and you're not going to get back to him in any other way. I don't know what that emoji is going to be.

There's going to be creativity there. What do you think it's going to be, Chris? Devil mask? My favorite emoji on my phone is rocket ship so pile of poo pile of poo let's do pile of poo all right yeah save rocket ship for uh for uh another code of your shoes like a fun one yeah all right whenever no whenever you're whenever you're whenever your friend Ted wishes to connect with you at a time when you're feeling like you don't want to be connected

to whenever your friend Ted reaches out to you at that time you can just send him back a friendly pile of poo and I think he'll get the message this is the sound of a gavel Judge Sean Hodgman rules that is all

Ted how do you feel about the judge's decision Cavill. Judge Sean Hodgman rules. That is all. Ted, how do you feel about the judge's decision? I agree. I think that he did the right quote little stinker emoji to avoid so much social pressure he's got he's got an exit strategy now and that could be tough but I respect the decision of the court well I think it's a it's a better exit strategy than a semi truck Chris yeah Chris how do you feel about the judge's decision? I concur.

I think it's a fair decision. I think I could stand to be a little bit more responsive and considerate of my friend's feelings when it comes to my non-responsiveness or even personal safety. So I'll make the effort. Well, I'm happy for both of you. And thank you both for being on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, teachers and faculty.

This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace,

because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-R. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there yeah i'm trying to spell it but it's tricky let me give it a try okay if you need a laugh and you're on

the go call s-t-o-p-p-p-a-d-i it'll never fit no it will let me try if you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Thanks to Luke Seaman for suggesting this week's case name. To suggest a name for a future case, like us on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions. If you have a case for the judge, submit it at www.maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

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