Judge John Hodgman - Object the Halls With Boughs of Justice

Episode Date: July 6, 2016

It's Christmas in July! Mark and Hal of Maximum Fun's own We Got This released an episode naming a popular Christmas movie as the definitive best Christmas movie. Mark regrets the choice and has tried several times to convince Hal to re-evaluate. While Mark seeks to get the decision reversed, Hal would like to prohibit Mark from bringing it up again. Who's right? Who's wrong?  If you want to listen to the We Got This episodes referenced, they are Episode #43 "Best Christmas Movie," and Episode #52 "The One Year Anniversary Spectacular." You can still buy tickets for the Judge John Hodgman: Live Justice tour! Check out MaximumFun.org or JohnHodgman.com/Tour for links and more information!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, object the halls with bows of justice. Mark and Hal of the podcast We Got This released an episode naming a popular Christmas movie as the definitive best Christmas movie. Immediately thereafter, Mark regretted the choice and has tried several times since to convince Hal to reevaluate. While Mark seeks to get the decision reversed, Hal would like to prohibit Mark from ever bringing it up again. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Just once, I'd like a regular, normal Christmas.

Eggnog, a freaking Christmas tree, a little turkey. But no. I gotta crawl around in this mother-friending recording studio at Max Fund Headquarters in L.A. Bailiff Jesse, sitting directly across from me in this small room, swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?

I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite his nonsensical insistence that the best Christmas movie is Jaws? I do. I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman? It is the best Christmas movie. It's a Christmas in July movie. Well, this is a Christmas in July episode. That's why it's so perfect.

Curiously apropos. Mark and Hal, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered the courtroom? It's I don't know who's taking whom to court here. I've forgotten. I think this is how. Yes, this is how speaking, Your Honor. I believe that this is a suit countersuit.

Right. Mark is seeking to overturn the judgment that we've already established and reestablished. I'm seeking injunctive relief, not only from him, but from his girlfriend to stop pestering and bullying me about the decision we've already made. Well, it sounds that you are the defendant because you are so very defensive. Very.

So I will allow you to take the first guest or throw it over to Mark Gagliardi, your co-host on the We Got This podcast, and see if you can glean any information from him. What is your choice, Hal? I've listened to the show for so long, I'd feel bad if I didn't take a stab at it first. Well, okay, good.

It's honorable. I'm going to guess it's from Die Hard 2, Die Harder. Interesting choice. What about you, Gagliardi? I am going to guess that it is from the new How the Grinch Stole Christmas. So right now we have Hal in studio with me and Jesse here in Los Angeles. Yeah. One of the rare, wonderful miracles of Christmas in July.

True. And Gagliardi, you are there in New York City, so I couldn't quite hear you. Did you also guess Die Hard 2? I did also guess Die Hard 2, Die Harder, yes. All guesses are right! Hey, all right! Another Christmas in July miracle. That's fantastic.

So it's a wash, and we have to hear the case after all. I'd like to make an appeal just starting out. You may. Go ahead. I feel like... No. All right. Fair enough. Are all Die Hard movies set at Christmas?

No. Only the first two. Okay. I don't know about the last two. I think they're just set in Russia and the internet. And Justin Long. Okay. The one I saw was the one with Justin Long pressing an enhance button.

That was Live Free or Die Hard. Great. Yes. Enhance. Enh button. That was live free or die hard. Great. Enhance, enhance, enhance. We got him. That's my impression of Justin Long's charming performance in that film. Let me be clear. Look, Justin. He's a delight.

Justin was the mech to my PC and he always shall be. And I adore him personally and professionally. Is Christmas in July a thing that you recognize, Hal? I do only because I work for a reward site where people talk about, they start saving money now for Christmas time. So it's already sort of in the air in the savings and deals community. Gagliardi, do you recognize that term, Christmas in July? I don't know if this has any currency at all. I'll tell you how I know about it.

all i'll tell you how i know about it that first year after we bought a new car and we got a year free of satellite radio the only radio station i listened to was the classic old timey radio and in july they did a month-long christmas in july special radio classics 118 a great station so you know it well 11 One, one, eight. My first introduction to the Aldridge family. I'm disappointed that you guys weren't spending your time listening to Babylon, the youth talk station on which I was a substitute host. Really? Yeah. When was this?

Like the first year that XM Satellite Radio existed. Fantastic. No youthsite Radio existed. Fantastic. No youths listened to it. No. Exclusively weird truckers. That's right. Weird truckers were the only audience, the least weird of whom was a guy who was driving Lisa Loeb's tour bus.

How did you find out that he was listening? He would call in. We actually had so few callers. I can't talk real loud. Lisa's sleeping right now. We had to establish a rule that each person could only call in once per show. Oh, wow. Because people would call in once, and then they'd call in a couple hours later in the

second topic, you know? Right. It's Lisa Loeb's truck driver again. She's starting to wake up. She wanted to give you an update. I'll hang up and listen to your answer. Listen, you guys, this is something you don't know.

Lisa Loeb has sleep apnea. I had to keep a close eye on her and make sure that the CPAP machine is working. But you guys really get me through with some long hauls. My boss's mom was the lady who says, you're the weakest link. Goodbye. Ooh.

Really? Wow. And at the time, that was prime cultural currency. That's a big deal. But now we can't remember her name. Nope. Nope. I can't even remember my boss's name.

I can't even remember what the name of this podcast is. Is it Judge John Hodgman? I better take control of this courtroom. So for those of you who are unfamiliar, and I hope that there are not many of you, but still I must introduce, our dear friends and fellow Maximum Fun podcast mates, Hal Lublin and Mark Gagliardi, who are the co-hosts of a great podcast called We Got This. And that is a podcast also of judgment and debate where you guys will take a topic such as best Halloween candy or which is better, Star Trek or Star Wars.

And those are the ones I remember because I was a guest on them. And any other thing like that. And you debate it and you come to some binding answer. Is that correct? Yes. Yes. Yes, but it feels at this point as if we have at least one episode failed. So we are here today for your ruling. Right.

So this is specifically a question about holiday-themed movies, and you guys had an episode about which is the best Christmas movie. Is that correct, Mark? Yes. Yes, Your Honor. And you guys came to a conclusion. We did. What were the two contenders for best Christmas film of all time? A Christmas Story and It's a Wonderful Life.

And who took up A Christmas Story? That would be me, Your Honor. Hal. Thank you very much. Hal took up A Christmas Story, the Peter Billingsley film from 19- 83. 83. Yes.

Based on the work of essayist Gene Shepard and storyteller, tail spinner, Gene Shepard. Also the inspiration for maybe my favorite movie ever, A Thousand Clowns. Is that so? Yeah. Oh, Gene Shepard. Gene Shepard. Not the movie A Christmas Story. Right, which came after A Thousand Clowns. Is that so? Yeah. Oh, Gene Shepard. Gene Shepard. Not the movie Christmas Story. Right, which came after A Thousand Clowns.

No, it was the protagonist of A Thousand Clowns based on Gene Shepard. Oh, no kidding. Yeah. Oh, how about that? And now we also have another movie called It's a Wonderful Life, directed by Frank Capra, starring Jimmy Stewart. And Gagliardi, that was your position. You liked that one better.

Yes, Your Honor. And you guys had a long talk about it. We did. Well, we eliminated many other movies. Our long talk about those two pitted against one another was about 12 minutes. Oh, okay. What were some of the movies that you eliminated? Unfortunately, Die Hard.

Right. We eliminated White Christmas, Mir miracle on 34th street uh national lampoon's christmas vacation uh holiday inn um christmas in connecticut santa claus the movie ah i remember that one elf santa claus versus the martian versus the martians and you disqualified all of those on aesthetic grounds. They simply were not as good as the two movies that became the final contenders, or they were not, how do you say, Christmassy? Well, they were excellent films, but like in the Olympics, there can only be one gold medalist. So we had to make a determination. We made no disrespect to any of those movies.

Well, maybe a little bit. But it does make it very confusing that you're now in my courtroom because it sounds like you came to a final decision on your podcast. That decision was, Mark? That A Christmas Story would receive the honor of best Christmas movie of all time. I can hear you saying it's difficult for you to even say those words. It is. Because you have not accepted the decision of your own podcast,

and now you come to my courtroom to settle this dispute between you? Shameful. Your Honor, what happened was we, our one year anniversary episode, episode 53, which came out in, later in the year, in March. Available over at MaximumFun.org.

That's true. The focus of that episode was to overturn a decision from the previous year. I went to bat strongly for overturning Best Christmas Movie. Hal went to bat for overturning our episode in which we determined that the worst Christmas song of all time was Paul McCartney's Simply Having a Wonderful Christmas Time. And that's the song that goes, Simply having a wonderful Christmas time. That's correct, John.

Simply having a wonderful Christmas time. Please don't sing any more of it. Simply having a wonderful Christmas time. You see my frustration, sir. Da-da-da-da. Oh, God. I don't remember any more of it. It's not his best work.

Let's just stipulate that it's not Paul McCartney's best work. Yeah. You went toe-to-toe with Hal over best Christmas movie, Hal Got His Way, A Christmas Story. Yes. Then you went toe-to-toe with Hal again about which ruling to overturn, and Hal Got his way again.

Based on an impasse that we had that resulted in a 50-50 game of chance at the end of the episode, which I don't think is an acceptable way to determine something this important. Objection. What was the 50-50 game of chance? Hal picked a number, made me guess it, and I got it wrong. Objection. So we were at an impasse, the impasse's name being Mark Gagliardi, who refused to yield simply in terms of being obstinate. Almost going as far to say- Your honor.

I will continue to podcast forever. Or ruled. Go on, Hal. Thank you. So in an attempt to try to- What did he say? He would quit podcasting forever? Basically, no, I will keep going.

He's like, I will not stop. He will essentially filibuster the podcast in the sake of getting his way. He's willing to game the system. He's willing to game the system. So for example, if he loses fair and square with the popular vote, he's going to try to turn a superdelegate like me. Yes. He will refuse to allow a vote for cloture. Yes.

That's right. Exactly. When does the new Maximum Fun Podcast vote for cloture start? And what is it about? John, it's about Robert's Rules of Order. You know them McElroys are going to do a Robert's Rules of Order podcast before tomorrow

now. Alright. Well, it just sounds to me, Mark, like Hal is better at this than you. Well, I can tell you how we settled it, just to finish that story. Do you want to let that sit in on Mark for a second here? You know what? I don't want to... I want to keep this going. I just... I want to

win based on facts and not on... Hal, on our podcast, we let each other talk. What happened on this one? What happened on this one was I texted our producer, Ken Plume. Right. I said, give me a number between one and 10. Right. I received back, I believe the number five.

I said- Literally between. That's about as much between as you can get. I said, Mark, here's how we'll settle this. I've received a number from our producer, Ken Plume, between one and ten. All I'm going to ask you is whether that number is odd or even, so you have a 50-50 chance of getting it right.

And tell me what you think. He said even. Got it wrong. And our decision for that episode as a gimmick was, let's overturn one thing that we think we got wrong from the previous year. Once that's done, the entire first year is closed and sealed. We agreed to those terms.

But even though he lost, I'm still harassed not only by him, but by his lovely girlfriend. Your Honor, let's not bring significant others into this. No, I'll allow it. If I may have a moment to speak. All right, one moment. Finally, a chance for you to speak on this show. Exactly. I would just like to reiterate that a 50-50 shot, however graphically and grandiosely

Hal wants to describe this 50 shot he gave me, it was essentially a coin flip. He really did take us down a long road for that story. Yeah. About how Ken take us down a long road for that story. Yeah. About how Ken Plume texted a number. I feel like that whole story may have just been buzz marketing for Ken Plume. I'm happy to buzz market the great Ken Plume. That's not the issue. It's just like, I don't understand.

What are you trying to invent a new kind of coin toss here? I was trying to come up with an equitable way where it's a 50-50 shot. Let's try and get past this impasse. You didn't have to pick one to ten. You know that, right? It could have just been any number and then is it odd or even. Absolutely. That was what he picked.

That's what he picked. I can't control him. So let me just make sure that I perfectly understand what happened was you came to an impasse about which ruling you were going to overturn. Correct. and was you came to an impasse about which ruling you were going to overturn. Correct. Through Plumie's incredible decision making machine. It arbitrarily went to Hal who overturned war's Christmas song.

Yes. So simply having a wonderful Christmas time is no longer the worst Christmas song. Correct. It's been replaced by Christmas shoes. What's that one? It's a terrible song about a woman who sees a child buying shoes in a store for their dying parents. It's just the worst sad story.

Thank you. Exactly, Your Honor. Hal's insistence that we got Simply Having a Wonderful Christmas Time wrong, his vehement insistence on that is what led to us sacrificing so that Barabbas could be exonerated. We put the Jesus of It's a Wonderful Life

up on a cross, and I don't think that's fair for Hal to do. Objection, I don't know who Barabbas is. You wouldn't. Thank you. Arabises. You wouldn't. Thank you.

And you are not qualified to say anything about Christmas or our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ anymore. I am married to a Presbyterian. All right. You're back in. Thank you. Look, if it's all about whose Christmas prowess is higher, not only did I celebrate Christmas in July, two years ago, I fully decorated my apartment for it. Fantastic.

Were you listening to classic radio 118? I was. 118. I don't want to say that I'm prejudiced, but I like you better. I do, too. In any case. I like Hal better. So you had agreed to this method of choosing, the Ken Plumey miraculous texting coin toss, right? Only because we were an hour and some odd minutes into a podcast.

And at this point, this impasse looked like it would make our listeners uncomfortable if it lasted any longer. So under duress, I agreed to do it. Under unfair duress? Under unfair duress, as we were this late into our podcast. Would you say that it was sort of like a hostage situation? Like you were under interrogation and you were ready to admit to anything? I would have admitted to anything in the world at that point. And then you agreed that at the end of that, that the decision would be sealed. I believe we agreed

early in the episode. Hal is- Just say yes, Mark. Yeah, but you knew what the, you knew what the, why am I even hearing this? Your Honor, under torture, at a certain point, you forget all things that have come before. And I assure you that at this point in the conversation, it was torture. All right, listen, that's how winners win and how one. Yeah.

Your Honor, if I may. No, you may not. Thank you. Mark. Yes, sir. Give me one compelling reason that I should unseal that we got this settled law and revisit this issue. The one that you think that this will be most meaningful to this court?

Because we are podcasts, both of ours, that deal in judgment and rulings. And I'm sorry, is this is this a human talking or a computer? This is a human talking as junior podcasters on the Maximum Fun Network. I wouldn't say that. To your... I would. I'll stipulate to that. We realized that we were in over our heads

and we wanted to defer to your mastery, your skill, your handsomeness, and your brain, sir. All right. The court does not take well to flattery. Facts, facts are facts. And as well, you know, what the court responds to is substantive arguments on behalf of the matter at hand that you feel that an egregious misjustice was done. I do. Look, I'm not going to write this for you because the fact of the matter is, course i'm going to open up the seal and revisit this not only because we would have nothing to do but also because the the plumy texting coin toss machine is bogus that should never have happened no one should have

agreed to that i agree the whole premise of your show is to work it out, talk it out, and come to an agreement, to fight each other with logic words. And so I do not consider it settled in any way. And also, Simply Having a Wonderful Christmas Time is the worst Christmas song, period. It is worse than Christmas Shoes. Your Honor, I beg you to give a listen to Christmas Shoes. Judge Hodgman, do you need me to just text Ken Plume real quick and run this all by him? Why is that?

Oh, well, as far as I can tell, he's the ultimate arbiter of all things on your podcast. Is that not true? No, it is not true. Ken Plume's weird number decision? I can't remember what the text description on your podcast says. Doesn't it say two guys argue for a while and then Ken Plume texts them? You know, that's an older liturgy of Plumesmas. Got it.

That celebrates the god Plume who decides from North Carolina using text to communicate his will. Yeah. But in the new tradition, it's much more secular and we actually just deal with each other personally. Although Ken Plume did send in a letter stating his position. Shall we review it?

Yeah, what does Ken Plume's letter say? I have been the producer of We Got This with Mark and Hal since the show's inception over a year ago. More importantly, I have been a friend to Mark and Hal, and my respect for them both on a personal and professional level is immeasurable. Having said that, let me state in no uncertain terms that Mark is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. To set this precedent of reversing a We Got this decision, if the court rules in Mark's favor in this case, is to undermine the very bedrock upon which the show stands. The decisions of we got this are final. They are determined through lengthy, deliberative discourse and,

when there is a disagreement between Mark and Hal on a given topic, compromise. But again, when an episode ends, a decision has been reached and the topic is closed. That is the remit of the show as created by Mark and Hal. As a producer, I must stand with reached, and the topic is closed. That is, the remit of the show is created by Mark and Hal. As a producer, I must stand with the integrity of the house that Mark and Hal have built, and I sincerely hope the court sees fit to preserve that integrity, because Mark is wrong. I'm surprised to hear that Ken Plume's email to the court is so hyper-loquacious. Well, he stands in the long tradition of anyone writing a letter to this show. Loquacity is the soul of letters to us.

And we thank you all for your letters. In any case, so Ken is your producer? Yes. He's fired. Your Honor, may I respond to Ken's charges? No, you may not. I'm responding right now. It's my courtroom. Yes, sir.

I'm throwing this letter out. Fair enough. Ken is fired until I rehire him. Because what you did on your show goes against the very principles

that Ken lays out in this letter. You did not reach a decision through deliberation and at the end compromise. You flipped a coin and you were wrong. Simply having a wonderful Christmas time is the worst.

Put that back in the seal. Now. In the seal. When you finish a podcast, do you take the cassette tape that you recorded it on and feed it to a seal and that's how we know? Yeah. That it shall never be revisited? Yes.

Well, I'm reaching down the seal's throat and I'm bringing out the Christmas movies again. What? Sorry. Oh, the seal's here. Your Honor, as a character. Now, I see you have some other evidence that you sent in specifically relating to Mark and Juliana's bullying of you, Hal.

Yes. So, Your Honor, after we recorded the initial episode of Worst Christmas Movie, I immediately got a text from Mark saying, I feel like we made a mistake. It's there in evidence, to which my response was, this is a decision we make. It's not always your favorite that wins. It's what we agree upon. Then I get a text almost immediately thereafter from his girlfriend harassing me for the same decision and has done so in person as well. She's a lovely

person, but she feels very strongly about this, which I understand. That's our best topics are based on things that people are passionate about. But also we made the decision and that's sort of how it lies. You have to accept that in any of these decisions that you make, they're going to be controversial. Of course. Right? And so there will be blowback. Always. And you can't take that heat.

Maybe you shouldn't be doing a podcast. Yeah, maybe you should get out of the podcast kitchen. Yeah, that's right. Where we're cooking up these great podcasts. That's right. But I want to cook out podcasts with you guys. Well, I throw out that evidence, too. I's right. But I want to cook out podcasts with you guys. Well, I throw out that evidence too.

I'm sorry. Fair enough. Because what you're just saying is people are mad at me because I won. Well, Your Honor. If you can't take that, you can't take anything.

I'm fine. I invite people to be passionate and give us feedback. What I do not expect is my co-host to then turn on a decision

we've made together. Something that I feel also belies... As I said, it was not a decision you made together then turn on a decision we've made together. Something that I feel also belies- As I said, it was not a decision you made together. It was a decision you left to Ken Plume. No, no, no. The initial decision. The second episode, I feel like Mark is mischaracterizing what happened. You may notice that the flag in this court does not have gold fringes on the edge, which

means it is not an admiralty court, which means it does not recognize the godhood of Ken Plume. Yeah. I always wondered what those gold fringes meant. He's only a god at sea. That's right. You want to take this case into international waters, that's a different podcast on the Max Fund Network. Sure.

Judge John Hodgman. I don't want to hear any more out of you about how this is unfair. You came here, and I'm telling you right now, we've got to revisit this. Absolutely. I'm willing to throw out. and I'm telling you right now, we've got to revisit this. Absolutely. I'm willing to throw out. And I'm impartial. Sure. I'm not saying that I'm necessarily going to reverse the decision,

but you guys have got to come to the actual decision now. Mark. Yes, sir. Why do you feel that the decision to honor a Christmas story as the best Christmas movie is wrong? Well, a few reasons. One, I have a personal affinity for both films, more so for It's a Wonderful Life. And I am not alone. Look at the top nine movie ranking websites.

Rotten Tomatoes, Entertainment Weekly, IMDb, Time Out, Ranker, Business Insider, Movie Phone, Microsoft Network, and Access Hollywood. God, I love the rankings on Microsoft Network. I know, right? They're huge. Aren't they great? So much fun. All nine of them. Yeah.

Rotten Tomatoes, EW, and IMDb being the most viewed and voted on. Boy. All have It's a Wonderful Life ranked number one. Can you hear Hal's eyes rolling right now? I can. Rotten Tomatoes has Christmas Story ranked 11. Entertainment Weekly has it at 2. The rest of them are 2, 3s, 5s.

All in the top 5. Mark, quick question. But without fail, yes. In the Yahoo directory, which of these movies has a little pixelated pair of sunglasses next to it? Also, if I may. Well, wait a minute. You may not.

Yes, sir. Because everything you just told me is garbage. What you said, first of all, was I like it better, which is pure anecdotal evidence. And some other people like it better, which is anecdotal evidence. Then you tried to flip it to science. But you, I think, would be the first to admit that while more people on Ranker and the Microsoft network probably rate Howard 100 better than classic old-timey radio 118, that does not necessarily make it better.

Or the definitive cable or satellite radio show may i give you howell's quotes on this in which he seems to claim that uh that it's a wonderful life is the better movie you you mean give out of context quotes sure this dot dot dot movie dot dot dot great I listened and I wrote these down verbatim. It is a great reminder to have faith in human beings and that how you view the world dictates what you will pull out of it. Hal on a Christmas story. It's like a comfy robe that when you put it on, it feels like you're wearing a hug. Now, I ask you, sir, what is more important, faith in humanity and a positive worldview

or Hal Lublin's comfy pajama sofa attire? Mark Gagliardi. Yes, sir. First, you offer anecdotal evidence, and I throw that out as nonsense. Then you enter in these, I mean, rankings. Rankings, sir. Yes, sir. At what point did you feel that your survey of Yelp reviews of movies was going to have any sway in my courtroom?

Yeah, I've read Yelp reviews here in Los Angeles. All we're determining here with your Yelp review survey is which of these movies has easier parking. Right. And more generous portions. Yeah. By the way, Yelp reviews are my summer reading. They're my favorite short stories by unreliable narrators. Do you look for places that have low ratings or high ratings or you don't care?

Doesn't matter. Every one of them is. And this is why I have to throw out your evidence because every one of them is an insane person who has time on their hands, whose opinion I do not trust. No offense to all of our listeners, and I look forward to reading the Yelp reviews of this podcast going forward. Then you try to make an argument that Hal himself argued in favor of It's a Wonderful Life,

thus negating his final decision that he prefers or believes that a Christmas story is the best Christmas movie. I don't get it. You are ignoring the crux of this with malice and intention, as far as I'm concerned, because I think you're afraid to admit what is plain on its face. Mark. Yes.

A Christmas Story is a more Christmassy movie than It's a Wonderful Life. It's a Wonderful Life has a lot of holidays in it. Does it not? It does? Hmm. What are they singing in the last scene of that movie? Auld Lang Syne. Yeah, oh, that famous Christmas carol?

Fair point, Your Honor. Yeah, it was a good one. So knowing that that's where I'm coming from, and I'm making a devil's advocate argument here. I'm not saying which side I'm taking. Right. But you have to admit that there is a deficit of Christmasness in It's a Wonderful Life. How do you respond to that? I would offer that Christmasiness is at its core love of family, love of community. And that is what is celebrated in this movie. Boy, oh boy. Talk about war on Christmas. You're like a plain red Starbucks cup.

You're like, Christmas is everything. Christmas is throwing a rock into the window of an old house. Christmas is doing the Charleston on a brand new basketball floor that comes apart and everyone falls into the pool. If Jimmy Stewart and Donna Reed are doing it, then it is. At the heart of Mark Gagliardi's definition of Christmas is how many days the oil burned for. Now, Hal, I got to put it on you now. Yes, Your Honor. Because I have already made the argument for you.

Yes. And established what this court is looking for, which is the establishment of Christmassy-ness. Right? Yes. So you don't need to make that argument about a Christmas story. That's all about Christmas. That's all about that kid trying to get that BB gun for Christmas in anticipation of Christmas.

Christmas, Christmas, Christmas. Yes. My question for you is, how did this movie ever even get into the top two? Because I think it's maudlin piece of junk. And I know I'm in the minority, but I think that movie is a maudlin piece of junk and i know i'm in the minority but i think that movie is a maudlin

piece of junk that i would never watch again so defend your choice judge hodgman can i interject here real quick okay i've never seen either of these movies what simply having oh god a podcast gasping break. I would advise you to see one of them. I presume that's a Christmas story. How did a Christmas story... You love this movie? Yes, we both do.

I know a lot of people do. Yeah, let me state for the record, we both love both films. But I need you to tell me why A Christmas Story gets anywhere near best Christmas movie. Sure. I can only speak from the perspective that I have coming into it, which is as somebody who did not grow up with Christmas in his household being Jewish, but loving everything about Christmas. Decorations, gifts, Santa. You would think a Jewish person would really know who Barabbas is. You would think.

Because you wanted him so bad. Well. You have no idea what I'm talking about. I wish I did. Yeah. But I just keep going. Let's just. That's our new podcast where I try to figure out who Barabbas is.

Ten parts. I don't think you'll need that many. We'll see. Right. Just call Ken Plume. So for me, that film embodies a lot of what we think of at Christmas. We think of decorations. We think of gift giving.

As a child wanting a gift. The trials and tribulations of a child who wants one toy more than anything else in the world. And that's sort of what the film centers around. So as a child, you identify with Ralphie. Then as a parent or as an adult, you start to identify more with the adult. So I think it works. And in between, you identify with that famous flagpole.

You haven't seen the movie. How do you know that? Because people like Hal tell you things about this movie over and over and over and then other people like you john tell you about how it's not actually that good so then you feel like you've already heard about all the parts of the movie but people you trust like john hodgman tell you that it's not actually good it's just one of those things that you learn to like when you were 10, like the Goonies. Yeah, you know, I've never seen the Goonies.

I've never seen the Goonies either. Oh, guys, let's go see Goonies. Simply having another podcast twist. So those reasons I think it makes it a good Christmas movie because you can enjoy the experience as a child or an adult. But also, culturally, at least in America, that is the film that is shown for 24 straight hours, like it or not. That is the film that becomes a hallmark. As opposed to It's a Wonderful Life, sir? As opposed to it, which is not shown 24 straight hours of George Bailey almost committing suicide on a bridge.

What? All right, that's unfair. Okay, go ahead, Gags. What? All right. That's unfair. Okay, go ahead, gags. Well, it's unfair to classify it as a movie about George Bailey standing on a bridge about to commit suicide when you're taking just one moment. I could say that A Christmas Story is a movie about childhood greed and licking flagpoles.

So, Mark, you're saying taking one moment out of a larger narrative is not sufficient evidence to make a decision? This seems like a trap, Mark. Just like taking somebody's quote from an almost hour-long podcast and using it as evidence that your movie is better. Oh, he just sprung the trap. Simply springing another podcast trap. Mark, the simple fact is, in this case, and there have been episodes we've done where I didn't care for the decision but have abided by it.

And I have as well, and you know that. Exactly. So suck it up, buttercup. That, to me, is for that Christmas film. It can be enjoyed. It really embodies, for me, what the Christmas experience I always idealized as a child. And didn't have. And didn't have.

experience I always idealized as a child. And didn't have. And didn't have. Not that I didn't. I mean, my parents were great at a great Hanukkah, but still that, you know, Christmas is the holiday of that season. It's a much larger holiday than Hanukkah is. And that film for me was like, oh, this is. As an outsider, it epitomized Christmas for you.

Yes. Especially because you were getting socks three nights out of the week. And you probably weren't ever going to get a BB gun of any kind. Nope. Chocolate coins. And there is, I mean, there is that for kids who celebrate Christmas, who are going to get their Christmas presents all on that one morning. this long, incredibly tense buildup of anticipation that gets blown out all at once on that one day. And it's a traumatic experience, frankly.

Yeah. Yeah. And then you don't sleep at all. And that was what you did not have and wanted. No, that's correct. Well, you've definitely convinced me that this movie somehow healed some psychic wound you had. But it's a hard thing to argue that A Christmas Story is on less than It's a Wonderful Life is on. Because It's a Wonderful Life, part of the story why it is known as a movie,

is that it was not particularly successful at the time. But someone let the copyright lapse at Republic Pictures, and then every UHF channel back when we had such things could show it all the time, all the time, and all the time. And that's how it became, I think, inarguably, despite the fact that it encompasses many different holidays, a Christmas classic on television, as much so as a Christmas story, as I would say. Sure. It's certainly a...

It is a ubiquitous film, a very well-made film, and it's identified with the holidays because that's when it was aired. Would you disagree that it is intrinsically, setting aside its Christmasness, a better film? I... to me, it's Apples and Oranges. Yeah,

both two delicious hand fruit that you can get at the grocery store that are in very many ways comparable. By the way, on your show, did you not do an episode

of Which is Better, Apples or Oranges? We did determine between Apples and Oranges. What was the determination on Apples and Oranges? Apples. Yeah. Yes, that's correct. Yes. Gags, you heard some of the arguments We did determine between apples and oranges. What was the determination on apples and oranges? Apples. Yeah.

Yes, that's correct. Yes. Gags, you heard some of the arguments that I was making on your behalf. Why am I doing the arguing for both of you guys? That's a good question. But I do feel like I've offered further argument for the Christmassy-ness of one film. Yeah. You liked it.

Yeah. As far as the quality, I love the work of Frank Capra, but I also love A Christmas Story, which strikes me as a Christmas-specific film. You don't need Christmas for It's a Wonderful Life to be a great movie. You need New Year's Eve. But what you do need for a great movie is a narrative through line. And I feel like the narrative through line of It's a Wonderful Life, it's a better told story. Whereas Christmas Story is a bunch of vignettes. It was based on a series of essays.

Yes. Yes. And by the way, for people who haven't seen A Christmas Story, the flagpole licking is when Ralphie is double dog dared to put his tongue on the flagpole. Does he get his tongue caught on it? It's Schwartzy. It's Schwartzy. Yes. No, Flick. That kid. Flick, yeah. Schwartz dares Flick to lick the flagpole.

And it's all set in the 1950s. It's truly the radio classics 118 of Christmas films. In its unrepentant nostalgia. I mean, it's nice that finally in films, baby boomers got to be nostalgic about the 1950s.

And you haven't even seen it. I mean, it's definitely a series of small vignettes, but they all lead up to a larger narrative of Christmas, and they're all themed around that. And the dad gets that disgusting leg lamp. He gets the leg lamp, which is a major award. Right. A Fragile, it says on it.

Fragile. It's from Italy. Yes. Dumbest joke. But I remember it. I remember it. Yes. I haven't seen that movie in many years.

And ultimately, in the argument of Christmas being about family, the other thing, the old man, as he's referred to. That's right. That's a good point, Jesse. There is no family in It's a Wonderful Life. Good point. He wants turkey. He loves turkey.

That's all, like, his greatest joy of Christmas. The dogs, the bumpus' hounds come in, devour the turkey. Oh. But the family still has Christmas anyway. They go to a local Chinese restaurant and have their meal there. So the fact that they're together and having Christmas as a family is the most important thing. Not a rifle, not turkey, not a leg lamp.

Which happens in the last three minutes of the movie. For the bulk of the movie, the movie is about Ralphie trying to get the Christmas present he wants. It does have the most terrifying Santa Claus sequence I've ever seen. Yes, ho, ho, ho. Yeah, that is disgusting and terrifying.

I like that Hal's entire argument about this is that he is the Alexis de Tocqueville of Christmas. That as a Jew, he has come in, he's observed what the essential truths about Christmas are and has left to report it back to Europe. The council will hear of this. Yeah, that's right. I have gone and observed Christian America, and I bring back to Europe the most essential Christmas film, A Christmas Story. And here also is Jerry Lewis, the greatest genius of comedy.

Do you accept there may be some cultural misperception here? With no offense to your great people and their traditions. No, certainly. There's a certain amount, and even in everything Mark and I discuss, there's a certain amount of personal bias that comes into play. Of course. There's a certain amount of anti-Semitism, no matter what. But let me say this, Hal. Yes. this, Hal. Yes.

I've been a little rough on you right now, but I appreciate the fact that you went deep and you explained what this movie meant to you, instead of just doing what Gags did, which is go, I like this movie, and so do a lot of people. In fact, here's what Rotten Tomatoes says. So, Gags,

make a more substantive argument about why I should rule in your favor regarding It's a Wonderful Life that does not resort to glib polls and flattery of me. Go deep, dude. Go deep. Every year, one thing that my father and I share is a love of Christmas. And every year we get together at the holidays. And one of the things I look forward to more than anything else is sitting down with my dad and watching It's a Wonderful Life. Sometimes we did the colorized version when we had that VHS tape.

But as soon as we got the original back, we wanted the original full, beautiful black and white. It's a wonderful life and no matter how many times both of us watch that movie the two of us sit and cry at the end of it yeah but you could be talking about die hard with a vengeance not the context of watching it at christmas why is it intrinsically Christmassy? Because at the end of the day, it is a story of family and community and where eight thousand dollars is the the driving force that leads to the whole third act of the movie. What it really comes down to in the end is George Bailey's love of his wife and his children and a community rallying around him because they know that this is a man in trouble. And this is a man who has affected all of their lives.

When George Bailey is shown how everyone's life is worse off without his influence on it. As humans, we're all looking for our place in the world and our purpose to figure out where it is that we fit into this big thing. And George spends the whole movie trying to figure that out. And at the end of the movie, what it comes down to is George has had an impact on the world. It's just that the world is those people around him, his family and his community. And I don't think anything embodies the Christmas spirit better than realizing that

the world that you are trying to create around you is really held together by love and friendship and community and helping each other. And there's nothing more emblematic of Christmas than that to me. Oh, hey, this is the janitor here at Max Fun. Those three guys left a little while ago. Was there something you were talking about? Oh, did they? Yeah, they just left the thing running. What's your name?

Alan. Oh, it's nice to meet you, Alan. I'm Mark. Do you mind if, so should i just log off and then hey um alan uh i've been working on these pipes down here i'm the plumber for maximum fun my name is francis and um i'm wondering when you're gonna get done cleaning so that i can finish my pipe work yeah i just have to sprinkle all this sawdust all over the place first. Hey guys, it's me, Zev.

I'm almost done cleaning the windows from the inside. I'm going to go to the outside. Hey guys, what's your favorite Christmas movie? Hey you guys, we've got to get out of here because the other guys are coming back. Guys, get out of here. You're not supposed to start work until 5pm.

Sorry. Well, we sorted that out. Back to the case. Well, I think I've heard everything I need to hear. So I'm going to go into this cave and have a rock rolled in front of it where I will die and then be reborn. With my decision emanating from my head like a halo. So I'll be right back. Here I go to die.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom. How do you feel about your chances in this case? I feel like I've made the most compelling argument that I can, and I just have to hope that justice is on my side. Do you think that you're going to be able to overcome the judge's bias against a Christmas story on the basis of the fact that it's not that great. I do. I think the judge sees the larger arguments and a Christmas movie that's not great is better than a Christmas movie that's not really about Christmas at all. That's an interesting argument. Mark, how do you feel about your chances? I think that my chances are pretty good. It's clear that the judge does not like a Christmas story, so hopefully he will let his personal tastes come into play in this. And he will realize that while the majority of people prefer, it's a wonderful life.

And I'm just praying and hoping that Hal and I remain dear, dear friends after we leave here today. Dead to me. Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all of this, including the future of your friendship when we come back in just a second. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be

fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs, they're made-in, made-in. The Rohan duck, made-in, made-in. Riders of Rohan, duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop? You got it. Made-in, made-in. Made-in has been supplying top chefs and restaurants with high-end cookware for years. They make the stuff that chefs need. Their carbon

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Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So

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Get up to 60% off at Babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom first of all merry christmas the old building and loan i'm talking to that old building and loan over there it's a small bank that my family owns that uh can speak english uh this is a complex case No way, it's not It's obvious, the answer is obvious on its face It's a Wonderful Life may not be about the modern celebration of Christmas

as we know it and young Jewish boys know it but it is profoundly more about Christmas as we know it and young Jewish boys know it. But it is profoundly more about Christmas, if that is your criteria, than a Christmas story, even though it's got Christmas in the title. Why?

Duh. George Bailey is Christ. I mean, he is born. He sacrifices his entire life. He reaches a point where he feels he can go no further. The torments that are upon him make him look to the heavens and say, take me, Father. Why are you doing this to me? and then is about to jump off a bridge, but is saved by an angel and enjoys salvation

through the act of love of a community. I mean, this is what it's about. And your movie, Hal, is about a kid who wants a gun. It's about a greedy child. No offense to Peter Billingsley, who I know still works in the industry, and I would love to do anything with you in the future. I think I'm a greedy child. No offense to Peter Billingsley, who I know still works in the industry, and I would love to do anything with you in the future.

I think I'm a fantastic actor. There's a series of light vignettes centering, revolving around a child's and a father's greed for guns, women's legs in the form of lamps. Sexual lamps. And turkey. It's lurid. women's legs in the form of lamps sexual lamps and turkey it's lurid it's unseemly everyone's yelling

at each other and what's more it's a wonderful life though not being explicitly about Christmas itself embodies a Christmassy story because

it was this classic that almost disappeared due to the rotten tomatoes of its time. But then itself was resurrected. A theme of Christmas. A theme of the life of Christ. By the sort of miracle that someone forgot to copyright the dumb thing. And in that sense, even better, it belongs to everyone. And finally, it is a better movie. By far.

The performances are sublime the direction is incredible the themes are affecting the humor is amazing there is a reason that everyone watches it and there's a reason that And there's a reason that Mark Gagliardi and his dad get together and watch it every year in that word picture that he painted, which was frankly sent a little depressing. The two of them staring at the VCR. I'm not pushing this as a critic, just a Christmas story. But I'm in a bad place because Hal made a really good argument for why that's a Christmas movie. And Gags, you flubbed it every time, dude. You flubbed your initial argument. You flubbed your double argument.

You flubbed your triple argument. Then you went on a long monologue about everyone's nice to each other. And that was almost getting it there. But I needed you to say, well, George Bailey is Christ. In order to sway me that your argument was better than House. And Mark, you know that I adore you, and I'm sorry to say that you flubbed your argument. That's all right.

I want you to learn from it. I have, sir. What have you learned? George Bailey is Christ. That George Bailey is Christ. I learned that, too. It's really interesting. Well, look, you couldve this now by changing your mind

How I could Well see this is what it Comes down to Here's the difficulty for me Is as somebody who Has a wife who believes in Jesus but I don't personally

As a religious figure that's not what Christmas is to me. It's a general spirit of generosity and giving absolutely. It's spending time with family, yes. The fact that it's the story of Christ doesn't tie it for me stronger to Christmas, which I admit is odd and maybe something specific to me or just specific to people who prefer a Christmas story, whoever they are. I don't I have no I have no gawker lists to offer you or Uproxx GIF articles. Well, here's here's something that's going to be meaningful. You a little ways down the road in this judgment.

A little ways down the road. In this judgment, you are Barabbas. And unfortunately for Gagliardi, you are Christ. Because I have to crucify you, dude. Jesus. This podcast took a turn. I'm talking to you. Yeah. This podcast took a turn. I'm talking to you.

You will have to be the one to sacrifice here because Hal doesn't accept your argument, nor does he accept my much greater argument. No offense, gags. No, none taken. argument no offense gags no none taken and what happened on your podcast even though the outcome in in my opinion which is correct was wrong i have to conclude that you did not argue well enough because there's no other way that hal could have won that one. Hal is demonstrably wrong. You should have taken him apart. But perhaps, like Jesus, you are too pacifist to do so. And consequently, A, he got his way on that one, the Christmas story.

And B, when it came time to re-up, you agreed to this ridiculous Ken Plume arbitrary decision-making process. And so because, and I hate to do this to you, Mark, but you started out with flattery. You started out with polls. started out with polls you moved on to a touching personal story but you didn't find the crux of why it's a wonderful life is a obviously substantially better film better christmas movie and the best christmas movie and i am upbraiding you only because i know you can do better in the future and destroy this monster who sits across from me. Thank you, Your Honor. If there's anything that we've learned here in this Judge John Hodgman podcast is to find the crux, to take your intuitive sense of justice.

A hot dog is not a sandwich. And then really dig deep and figure out why. Because you would never cut it in half. And that is something that you must take this harsh lesson Mark Gagliardi

to learn going forward with your podcast, which I want to thrive. You will be better for it. You will be better for it. You will be better for this sacrifice. You will win more frequently. And this whole episode, both of this podcast and yours and the episode in general,

shall be a dark stain upon your history forever, Hal. Thank you, Your Honor. You have been given your freedom while Mark has been sacrificed. And so, a new holiday is born. We are now in July. But come this Christmas, you shall remember this day. And whenever in December

you settle upon a dispute between the two of you in your favor Hal Mark may go to your Lord and Savior Ken Plume and receive a number from beyond. And you may be summarily dismissed in as callous and unfair a way as Mark was.

That is my ruling upon you. Fair enough. But I do find in your favor. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Hal, how are you feeling?

I feel good about it. I have to say the argument that George Bailey is Christ is a great argument. And legitimately, had that come up during the podcast episode it might have gone the other way but it's it's interesting and i love both films and i'm glad we got to to talk about it again and mark i love you i love you too i'll tell you this i feel jesse right now like if i were a criminal defense attorney uh defending someone who was up for murder. I feel like the jury just handed down a guilty verdict and the judge said, well, it's guilty. And also the reason he's been found guilty is because of your lawyer. So both the murder and the upcoming execution are on your hands.

So it's a big weight to bear. Gags has died. Gags has died. Gags has risen. Gags will come again. Amen. We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney.

I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-R. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-To-p-p-b-a-d-i it'll never fit no it will let me try if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p-p-p-d-c-o-o ah we are so close stop podcasting yourself a podcast from maximumfun.org If you need a laugh, then you're on the go.

That's it for this week's Judge John Hodgman podcast. Christmas in July! Hey, we're going on tour in September. That'll be sort of like Christmas in September. It will be. It'll be Hanukkah in September. We've already got a few shows that are entirely sold out. So if you live in the Northeast, now's the time to get your tickets.

They're not going to last for long. We're also headed to London for the London Podcast Festival. That includes not just Judge John Hodgman, but a very special episode of my NPR show, Bullseye with Jesse Thorne, featuring special guests from the United Kingdom who are to be announced. TBA from the UK. As well as the Maximum Fun Podcast, International Waters, which is a cross-cultural transatlantic pop culture quiz show hosted by the great Dave Holmes. It is super funny, super fun.

We're going to have amazing special celebrity guests on that one as well. So I hope that you'll get a lot of tickets for shows if you live in London. funny, super fun. We're going to have amazing special celebrity guests on that one as well. So I hope that you'll get a lot of tickets for shows if you live in London. But most importantly, if you're in the northeast of the United States, tickets are still on sale for all of our shows, except for New York, which we've already sold out two shows. Portland, Maine, Ternus Falls, Massachusetts, Boston, Massachusetts, Brooklyn's out of there, Philadelphia, the District of Columbia. And those tickets are going very fast.

A lot of those shows are getting very close to selling out. So do get your tickets now. And if you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. There you will find a submission form that includes your city of residence. Exactly so. There you will find a submission form that includes your city of residence. Exactly so. So if you live in one of those cities and you are free on the day of that performance and you might want to present a case to be heard live on stage, let us know.

If we pick your case to hear, you get in for free. Even that Brooklyn show. Yeah. No case too big or too small. We love to hear them all. We love to hear them all. We love to hear them all, but we will only pick a couple of them. Yeah, MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. Submit your cases there.

And one last thing about the tour. I've said it before and I'll say it again, from one New Englander to another. If any of you weirdos wants to come to Portland, Maine, Turner's Falls, Massachusetts, and Boston, Massachusetts, see all three shows and make a road trip of it, show me Turner's Falls, Massachusetts, and Boston, Massachusetts, see all three shows and make a road trip of it, show me your ticket stubs at the Boston show.

I'll meet you backstage, personally, for a special meet and greet New England style. We also have MaxFunCon East coming up. You and I, as we record this,

Judge Hodgman, we just finished MaxFunCon. You have a good time? I had such a good time. It's such a pleasure to see all of the MaxFun listeners and so many of my fellow podcast network mates. And it's a really good, fun, supportive community. The thing that's so great about MaxFunCon East and West is the listeners are often really interesting people who are making interesting stuff in the world.

you know, really interesting people who are making interesting stuff in the world. So if you're coming to either one, you're not just there to see the fantastic so-called talent. You're going to make a lot of really good friends that you'll enjoy knowing for the rest of your life. It's Labor Day weekend in the Poconos. You can find more information at MaxFunCon.com. Hashtag your posts about Judge John Hodgman. Hashtag JJHO. Join us on Facebook. There's a wonderful Maximum Fun group and a great Judge John Hodgman. Hashtag JJHO. Join us on Facebook. There's a wonderful Maximum Fun group and a great Judge John Hodgman page, as well as a Judge John Hodgman fans group, which we're not even administrators of. It's just a cool place to chat about Judge John Hodgman. Not that the Max Fun group isn't as well.

We also always have great conversations about the show on the Maximum Fund Reddit, which is MaximumFund.Reddit.com. So we hope that you will join us in all of those places. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. This week's show named by Steve, I'm going to say, Marois. Thanks, you guys. If that's not how you pronounce your name, Steve Marois, my apologies. Thanks to you, Steve. Thanks, Jennifer.

We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. And listen to We Got This with Hal and Mark on MaximumFun.org. Don't be a chump. You'll love it. Merry Christmas in July. Goodbye. MaximumFun.org. Comedy and culture.

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