Judge John Hodgman - Occam's Frasier

Episode Date: November 14, 2019

Emily files suit against her friend Aaron. Emily and Aaron are regulars at a bar which they affectionately refer to as their "Cheers." Recently they tried to decide which Cheers characters they are. Emily wants to be Martin Crane. Aaron believes that Emily cannot be Martin Crane because he is strictly a Frasier character. Emily disagrees and asks the court to rule that Martin Crane exists in the world of Cheers. Who’s right? Who’s wrong? Only one can decide!   Thank you to Yipee Kiyay for naming this week's case! To suggest a title for a future episode, follow Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, Occam's Frasier. Emily files suit against her friend Aaron. Emily and Aaron are regulars at a bar which they affectionately refer to as their cheers. Recently, they tried to decide which cheers characters they are. Emily wants to be Martin Crane. Aaron believes that Emily cannot be Martin Crane because he is a character from Frasier. Emily disagrees and asks the court to rule that Martin Crane exists in the world of Cheers. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. Albania, Albania, you border on the Adriatic.

Your terrain is mountainous and rocky and your chief export is chrome. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear the litigants in. Emily, Aaron, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that if he were a Cheers character, he would be Harry Anderson? Yes.

Yeah, I do. From Dave's world. Okay, Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Harry the Hat, deep cuts. Deep cuts from season one of Cheers. Were we ever so young? Emily and Aaron, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom?

Emily, you start. I originally was going to go with another deep cut spinoff, but nothing is coming to mind. So I am going to say Medallion Status. Medallion Status. True Stories from Secret Rooms, the new book by me, John Hodgman, available now wherever you buy books in all electronic, audio, and printed forms. Bit.ly slash MedallionStatus. All capital letters. All one word.

Hashtag AlwaysBePlugging. What was the obscure spinoff that you wanted to reference? Booker, which is a spinoff from 21 Jump Street. Oh. That is an obscure spinoff. Wasn't there going to be a Rhea Perlman? No, the Tortellis was a spinoff of Cheers. Yes to be a rhea perlman there no there was a the tortellis was a spinoff of cheers yes yeah yeah yeah that's right i knew that there was an obscure spin and

did that actually i know they shot a pilot did that go to series at some point i am not sure it's listed on wikipedia so that's enough literally this coming from someone who sent me, in the evidence, a link to a definition of retcon. This is going to get deep. It aired for four months, John, in 1987. That's got to be several episodes. All right. Aaron, what's your guess? I had something up my sleeve to inject some Canadian content into this podcast.

Right, because you are British Columbians. Is that correct? Yes, correct. Yeah. inject some Canadian content into this podcast. Right, because you are British Columbians. Is that correct? Yes, correct. Yeah. But that really strikes me as like a They Might Be Giants kid song. One of their like pop songs about, you know, Albania, I guess. Like from one of their many kids albums, like No.

Yeah, yeah. Or Here Come the 123s. Or Here Come the 123s, right? Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Or here come the one, two, threes. Or here come the one, two, threes. Right. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And Emily and Aaron, I wasn't listening when Jesse introduced the case. What is this about? It's about cheers. Cheers. Oh, interesting. Any of you want to guess cheers? Yes. No. Good. No. Because if you did, then that answer would be right. Come on, you guys. What if one of you had said, I think it's cheers.

Because you knew it, right? Because you watch cheers, you love cheers. Or at least one of you loves cheers. One of you loves cheers enough not to degrade it. You're talking about cheers in the bar all the time because it reminds you of cheers. And you're like, I've seen every episode. Specifically, you've seen episode number 16 in season three, Teacher's Pet, where coach Ernie Pantuso, played, of course, by the late Nicholas Colasanto, explains to Sam Malone that the way he learned geography was by making up songs about it. Yeah, that's good.

If you had said all of those things, do you know what I would have said to you? Aaron, Emily, I would have said, you're still wrong. Because I changed a line. I have sung that song to myself probably once a month since I was 19 years old. Since the day my dear friend and perhaps yours jonathan colton in college said that that was his favorite joke from cheers when coach sang about albania and it closed with and your chief export is crumb and i had not realized until this moment that jonathan colton had punched that song up because the original line

was your land is mostly mountainous. He realized that that did not track with the saints go marching in. So he changed it whether knowingly or not to a much better line. Your terrain is mountainous and rocky and your chief export is chrome. I think about it at least once a month. I laugh to myself every time. Do you know why? Because Cheers is a wonderful television show. It is unstoppably great. One revisits it from time to time wondering, do I misremember? Perhaps this has aged and certainly has aged in certain ways in terms of the fashions people are wearing,

in terms of the wild lack of diversity in the cats, which is astonishing. And yet comedically, it stands up. It's beautiful. It's a thing of beauty. It's something you want to keep precious in one's life by not making provocative claims about it. Emily, you brought this case before the court.

What is the issue? I brought this issue to the court because we spend a lot of time at a bar in Victoria called Sherwood, Sherwood Cafe and Bar. It's kind of the cheers of Victoria, British Columbia. Yeah, I'm glad that you clarified that it was Sherwood Cafe and Bar for people who thought it was Sherwood Forest and Robbers. Yeah, I mean, it's a common confusion. We spent a lot of time there. We know a lot of the regulars. And the day that we had this discussion was one particular day where a lot of people we knew.

Hang on. Hang on. I just want to verify. Does everyone know your name? Oh, I get it. Yay. At your local hangout, Sherwood, Brad, and Ray Romano. Yes.

Yes. Many, many people there know my name when you walk into they go Emily sometimes it has happened it has happened yeah this is your local place where you like to hang and you like to hang around with Aaron who is your friend yes my best bud your best bud in Canada and maybe the world yeah yeah. Yeah. I'd say that's true. A bar is a place where people hang out and they make bar bets. They make proposition bets. Like, can I balance this match on my nose? They come up with like weird things to discuss as a, as a machine gun count as a robot. I mean, this is where, what bars are for. And you got into a

discussion and what was the nature of this discussion? We were sitting there and a lot of people were saying hello to us that day. So we... By name, it has been established. Yes. And we were saying, man, this feels a lot like Cheers because in Cheers is a place where everybody knows your name. So we decided to have a conversation about what Cheers character would you be? And so Aaron asked me, what Cheers character would you be? This sounds like a great thing to do with friends a great game to play

i don't see how it could go wrong aaron how did it go wrong well yeah almost immediately uh emily decided that she wanted to be martin crane who is frazier's dad from the tv show frazier who is Frasier's dad from the TV show Frasier. So I had a bit of a problem with that. Okay, now people who are listening who don't understand Canadian, I had a bit of a problem with that. Means that Aaron flipped the table over. Or should have.

Why, Aaron? The analogy of the bar being our cheers, Martin Crane being a character that has never been to cheers, doesn't work. We will touch on that later. The point you wish to make for those of you who do not know, and which you are characteristically too polite and roundabout to make, is that Martin Crane, the character of Martinin crane who plays fraser crane's dad on fraser did not originate on the show cheers fraser crane the character of the stuffy uppity cardigan wearing a bostonian professor my role model

the character the character not the actor a lot of appreciation fascination with sadness for empathy with political disagreement with kelsey kramer i think he's very talented i'm talking about the character frasier crane saw a lot of myself in him growing up in boston he was definitely on cheers but martin Crane, definitely not on Cheers. Emily, you know this. You know this. To quote Paul F. Tompkins, you know this. That's not a king hat.

It's a crown. A crown. What are you doing here, Emily? First of all, why are you, let's just say for a moment that Martin Crane is on Cheers. Let's just create a fantasy world. Let's step into through this wardrobe into this Narnia that you've created fashion for us. The Cheersiverse. Yeah. The expanded Cheersiverse in which Martin Crane is part of this universe, which I think is a case you're going to try to make, but let's not even try to, let's not even get there yet. That's why I'm getting weird spreadsheets about, you know, the history of retconning

and stuff. Yeah. A lot of homework came in the evidence. Do not appreciate it. Tell me though, why you are Martin Kring? I feel like I identify with Martin Kring because I think that he's pretty unpretentious. He's down to earth. He doesn't want people to fuss over him.

And he pretends to be tough, but he's actually soft deep down inside, which I feel like is a trait that I share as well. And Aaron, Emily's your best bud. I mean, setting aside this obvious dispute, do you think that her identification with Martin Crane has some truth to it? Sure. Yeah. Yeah. By that criteria. Yeah, for sure. I think by that criteria, by the criteria of knowing your friend and seeing her and letting her identify herself the way she sees fit. Yeah, absolutely. That and also just the things she laid out, I think, are traits that she definitely shares with with Martin Crane. Yeah. You don't have any beef with her self-identification with

Martin Crane. It is merely this issue of whether Martin Crane belongs in the Cheers-iverse. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Just out of curiosity, Aaron, did you get around to choosing your Cheers character before you stormed out of this place in a huff and set Victoria, British Columbia on fire? Not in that conversation, no. It pretty much started and ended with Martin Crane. Nothing else could continue past Martin Crane. Were there other people here?

I mean, how many people were in this group when this happened? Just the two of us. Yeah. It was just us. So what happened when she said this? Did you walk out on her? No, no. I think I just was taken aback and just kind of like, it's like, absolutely not.

I just denied that that was an acceptable choice. If she had not totally derailed the conversation with this obviously provocative choice, what Cheers character would you say you relate to? I think I also relate to Frasier in a way. I think I have a bit of that, like, I don't want to say pretentious, but, you know, I like the finer things. conscientious, but you know, I like the finer things. I do actually find myself in situations like at a bar, listening to people's problems, you know, trying to help them through stuff. So I feel like I identify with Frasier in that way. Yeah. And here you are presented with a psychological case that is beyond your understanding. It says here, Aaron, that you work as a freelance software developer. You're 31 years old. You live in Victoria, British Columbia.

You love to ride your bike, but not so much that you need spandex fantastic and you also go by sweetie is that true yes yeah well sweetie tell me about all the finer things wait sweetie like uh you would call a child beauty pageant contest or or sweetie with a d like you would call a turn of the 20th century baseball player. Oh, wow. No, it's with a T. It's technically Lil Sweetie, L-I-L apostrophe. Why do they call you Sweetie? Short version, friends went on a road trip.

They came back as a rap group. I wasn't on the road trip and I wanted to be included. I don't want to hear about a Canadian road trip fake rap group. Yeah. Come on. I want to like you guys Canadian road trip fake rap group. Yeah. Come on. I want to like you guys. Which of your friends is Snow? Let's take a quick recess.

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Cookware.com. Court is back in session. Let's return to the courtroom for more justice. They made you an honorary member of their fake road trip rap group and they gave you the name Little Sweetie? Yeah, my friend actually did it in kind of an ironic meaning. Oh, really? Yeah, he thought I was kind of cranky all the time and he called me Little Sweetie. Emily, is he a Little Sweetie? I think that it's accurate in that he is cranky sometimes.

And so it's funny to call him sweetie. Emily, if he were a Cheers character, which would he be? And I beg you to choose a Cheers character, just because I just don't want to go off on another tangent yet. I do think that Frasier is an accurate choice for him. And Emily, you work in the tech industry and you play trumpet in a band and you love reality television. I love these little bios that I've been getting.

This is fantastic. It's like, what a life, what a life up there. And you're both 31 years old, just hanging and playing trumpet and giving each other nicknames. And you're having a good time, but you're young. How did Cheers come into your life and how long have you been watching it? And what does it mean to you? I would say that Cheers is relatively new in my life. I've only watched it in the last year since it came on to like TV streaming service here we have called Crave, which is like Netflix, but just different stuff that Netflix doesn't have. So I've been watching it. Yeah. In the last year. Yeah. I think like my association with it is really kind of just the good vibes of like a cool community of people who

aren't who are just like friends in that space which is very relatable like in the Sherwood kind of space that we spend time in but also Erin and I know each other from working at a coffee shop before we worked together for three years as baristas and it was a very similar kind of environment and it was just nice having people kind of roll through that you would see for like brief periods of the day. And sometimes they would come back a couple of times. So I just love that environment, I guess. Would you say that Sherwood has the quality of being sort of a smaller city with a kind of an underdog baseball team and a weird sort of clash of a longstanding working class culture, but also a drong and very snobby university culture.

Would you say that Wade Boggs ever visits and does a surprisingly credible job for a third baseman? I think you could say that. Yeah. Would you say that Sherwood might be the provincial capital of a commonwealth in an area commonly known as New England in the northwestern part of the American continent known as Canada? Yeah, sure. Okay. I mean, you've watched Cheers. Have you watched Frasier? You had to have or else you wouldn't have come up with this calumny. Right. Sweetie has watched more Frasier than I have.

I think he claims that he's seen every single episode of Frasier. I have not seen every single episode of Frasier, but I've seen many episodes. Enough to know that you feel like Martin Crane. Yes. The great character actor John Mahoney. There is someone who has seen, I dare say, every episode of Frasier. She is our expert witness to help cast some light on this case. She hosts a Frasier podcast. It's the popular podcast

called I'm Listening, a Frasier podcast with name of the host. I'm about to say it. I really enjoy her. I loved being on the podcast. It's in its third season, and the host of that podcast is named Anita Flores. Anita, how are you? I'm good. I'm honored to be here as your expert. So, Anita, you host a podcast that is all about Frasier? Tell me about it. I'm listening. It is all about Frasier. However, not an episode-by-episode podcast. It could be a whole episode about, and there has been an entire episode about, best episodes of Frasier that take place at dinner parties. so far. And I had somebody named Dan Chamberlain, who's very a talented writer and comedian, pretend to be Kelsey Grammer and read my favorite excerpts from so far. And then I went through them passage by passage. He was on the show that I was on, right? He's the Frasier impersonator.

That's correct. Yes. It's an incredible job. He does an incredible job. Absolutely incredible job. And then more in the future, in this season of my podcast, I'm doing an episode where in my apartment that I already recorded with my oldest friend, who's a Frasier fan, we get drunk off of sherry and eat tossed salad and scrambled eggs and then talk about the origins of the song, Tossed Salad and Scrambled Eggs. So it's really... It's themed. It's themed to Frazier. But there's no true rules other than there's just there's just got to be something about the show or somebody in Frazier. I'm going to do an episode best of Eddie episodes. That's coming. But I need to I need to find like a real Eddie fan. So, Anita, people who wish to find you and find your podcast, they can find you on Twitter

very easily. You are at AnitaJutina, A-N-I-T-A-J-E-W-T-I-N-A, because in part you are a whole human being with a whole life to you, but you are Jewish and Latinx, correct? That's correct. And so, Jutina rhymes with my name. No, it doesn't. I was going to say Anita rhymes with my name. No, it doesn't. But the, you know, almost it's got a ring to it. And nobody else I know online is has a handle. Anita Jutina. But I asked you this when I was on the show, like, you know, when Frazier came on television, there was a lot for me to look at and and relate to as a straight white male Ivy League educated who lived in Boston for a period of time. What did this show about this effete snob in Seattle who interacted only with white people, how did that speak to you growing up? I did grow up in Connecticut during my formative years, so there's my first connection,

all the white people. And then separately from that, more recently, I would say it is a fun show to watch that doesn't really make me stressed out. I'd say it's a very relaxing show that in a way I like because I can't relate to it, except for the weird stuff, like just the fact that I'm really into Frasier, which already weird some people out. And then it makes me, you know, it makes me feel like I can relate to Frasier and Niles, who people think are weird and, you know, speak with a weird transatlantic accent. John, the person in my life who loves Frasier the most is a woman who, with her family, was a refugee from Peru and grew up as an actual refugee in the United States and living largely in motels for a big chunk of her life and the reason she loves fraser so much is that very same thing that because of its nature not just as a sitcom but sitcom that's like not that zany or like crazy because it has such a gentle tone it was the thing that she and remains actually the thing that she used to fall asleep it was. It's like the thing that comforted her.

I must ask you, you must connect me to her. I am Peruvian. My dad is from Peru. I actually, I'm doing an episode of my podcast called Frasier Fans Around the World. And I just went to Mexico on vacation and I met my first Spanish-speaking native Oaxacan friend named Armando, who I'm going to have on my podcast on that episode. And we're going to talk about why he loves Frasier. But that would be a dream to meet somebody from the country that my dad is from who also loves Frasier. I mean, Frasier is a typical Oaxacan thing, like chapulines or eating grasshoppers or, uh, or moleys, you know?

Yeah. That's right. I think you put it, you both put it very well, which is that, you know, while Cheers is comforting because it reminds you of community, Frasier is comforting in its own way because it is tone, its tone is gentle. It is almost like outside of its specific reference to Seattle or whatever else. This is like this pure, gentle comedy of manners that is kind of like, you know, family dynamics that are pretty universal. And it is just like comedy created in a lab to be perfect. There's just something very charming and lovely about it.

And I really enjoy the podcast. So everyone should go follow Anita at Anita Giuttina and listen to the podcast. But meanwhile, Anita, you've been listening to our two litigants. And I wonder if you have some observations. I mean, you have seen every episode of Frasier, have you not? I absolutely have. Yes. And with regard to Cheers, have you dipped into every season? You know, more or less the storyline or have you seen every episode of that show as well? I know the storyline, but I definitely have not seen nearly as many episodes of Cheers as I have a Frasier. That's fine. There are a whole bunch of them, right? They're all about the same. It's the nature of the sitcom.

That's the nature of the sitcom. That's what makes having a show in a bar frequented by regulars so comforting. It's like, that's what it feels like to be able to go into the Sherwood Cafe and Pub and see Lil Sweetie there and be like, Lil Sweetie! But Anita, would you agree with me that the case has not yet been made? That Martin Crane, one of the great characters in all sitcoms, is a character from Cheers? I think I would agree that the case has not been made. I mean, I have some notes, but... Please. Okay.

Share your notes with us, won't you? So here are the notes. Essentially, you know, I'm definitely a TV nerd, not just about Frasier, and I love the idea of worlds colliding, you know, anytime there's talk of the good place being connected to Parks and rec, etc. Now, in the case of Martin Crane, I have definitely watched episodes of Cheers that are connected to Fraser's storyline.

So I watched the episode that John Mahoney is on of Cheers and his character in Cheers who has a one episode arc is named Cy Flembeck. Cy spelled S-Y and he plays an executive for an ad agency who creates jingles. So you're saying John Mahoney before Frasier did a guest spot on Cheers as a different character. Do I understand that correctly? That is correct. Yes. During the Diane years.

It was actually during the Kirstie Alley years. Yes. Oh, I guess that's just a different. Oh, that's Kirstie Alley in profile. She just had a lot of light on the back of her head. Yeah. So he and, you know, spoiler alert, he claims to be this great, you know, jingle guy. And it turns out he just rips off already well-known songs and then changes the words to match. Like Albania.

Yes. Albania. Now, here's my biggest qualm. In this episode, there is a very brief exchange between Frasier and Psy. It's very brief. But separately, there are episodes of Frasier in which Martin Crane's musical talent is focused on. There is an entire episode where he writes a jingle and sends it to Frank Sinatra because he wants to see if Frank Sinatra will sing it. And it's called Groovy Lady. That's the song he writes. Okay. Separately, there's an episode of Frasier where Frasier has to write a jingle for his radio show. His father comes up with a great original jingle that he does not use.

The point is... So you're saying that John Mahoney's character, Cy Flembeck, was actually Martin Crane in disguise. Fraser didn't recognize him. Absolutely not. I am saying that for the purposes of personality and musical talent, these two characters are two different characters. As in Martin Crane, also a very nice

and genuine guy. Psy is a bit of a scam artist and not a talented jingle writer. And for those reasons, I would say they are in two different universes. Definitely. So John Mahoney in Cheers is different from John Mahoney in Frasier. And indeed, and I'm sure that, well, I know that this was brought up in some of the evidence, Frasier in Cheers, before Frasier was a TV show, Frasier the character described his father very differently from Martin Crane. Tell me about that. I mean, what did your research turn up there? My research on wikipedia.com. That's all. That's where I go to. Fraser, when speaking about his father on Shear, said that his dad was dead and that he was a

former research scientist. Now, on the show, Fraser, they do bring that up and reference it in front of Martin. And, you know, I think it's when Woody comes to town. It's either Woody or Sam Malone come and visit Frazier. And one of them says, oh, you said your dad was dead. And yeah, Martin's mad. So they do recognize that there is a weird crossover there. And that part is confusing. They repair the continuity.

Yes. He has a very different profession in Cheers. Not a cop. Yes. Yeah. In Cheers, he is referenced as being a research scientist to that that Frazier could never please. And he was and quote, I'm getting this from the homework evidence Emily sent in. I think this is you, Emily, who sent this in, right?

Yeah, that's right. Right. This piece of dialogue. He died before I had a chance to realize he was right. And I never got to tell him. It's funny, isn't it? And what he goes he goes yeah it's a good one all right dr crane john i think you've just unlocked a whole new career path for yourself you've been playing all these smarty mustache creeps and you should be playing uh indiana dum Oh boy, oh boy.

I'll do anything to be on Cheers, you guys. What, Iris to I'll save this for the verdict. I'll save it for the verdict. I just have a whole feel about it. John, all I want in the world is to be Paul on Cheers.

Yeah, background character. Just the guy that they use when they need to throw, they've got a line that they need to have, but a few too many characters are off screen at that moment. They need somebody at the bar to say something.

That's what I would be. Yeah, Sam, why aren't we doing this? The rest of the time, I'm just sitting there possibly drinking a real beer. Just hanging out. So people who don't know like there are many famous characters on cheers uh you got sam you got diane you got coach you got woody you got cliff you got norm you got uh who am i missing uh big one fraser right lilith lilith main carla obviously very briefly eddie yeah diane right but there was this guy named paul who just kind of like hung around in the background in almost every episode

and only every now and then had a line and when i learned that he had a name i was like my world was shattered like when they say hey let's get paul i'm like, who's Paul? Oh, that's Paul? Why are you hanging around with that guy? He has a different name in one episode. I think just like they just forgot what his name was or something. So Emily, what Anita and Jesse have brought up actually brings frustratingly some possibility of arguing that you're not wrong. some possibility of arguing that you're not wrong. Insofar as we have John Mahoney playing different characters in the legit Cheersiverse and the expanded Cheersiverse, we have Frasier Crane himself,

obviously speaking the initial story of his father written by the writers of Cheers that was then changed, or as you will explain to the audience, retconned later after they've decided to give him a dad who is completely different than the one they established in the Cheersiverse. Television is a kind of a messy thing and sitcoms are written and created on the fly. Changes happen. How does this messiness enhance your argument that you can be that famous character from Cheers, Martin Crane? Yeah, so I included in my evidence a reference to retroactive continuity, which I believe they're using in this case in the episode of Cheers where he references,

where Fraser references his dad being dead. They later explain in Frasier to Sam, I believe, who comes to visit, who brings up and says, I thought your dad was dead. He uses it to explain that they were not on speaking terms at the time. So he used that in conversation at the bar. And then that's kind of how they explain it in Frasier. So I included that in my evidence because I believe it backs up my argument that they are in the same universe. And that's also what they used to explain why John Mahoney played a different character in Cheers. Oh, did they explain that?

Well, no. Or did they just let it be? No, they just, yeah, they just let it be. But that's a retconnus. As one of the most famously messy television shows of all time. The leftovers would say, let the mystery be. Yeah. Aaron, what do you think about this retroactive continuity argument? Well, I don't really have a problem with Martin being in the expanded Cheers universe.

That's like, OK, great. Let's go home. Sorry. Sorry. I thought we had a podcast. Sorry, Jesse. I apologize. Can we erase the tape? Can we erase the tape and reuse it? Great. I already canceled the podcast. Oh, great. Yeah. I think the real issue for me is that it's

which Emily actually brought up is that Fraser and Martin weren't on speaking terms during the Cheers years. So to me, that means that Martin would never have set foot in the bar Cheers. And that defeats the whole purpose of our analogy of being like, if this is our Cheers, this bar is our Cheers, this place we like to hang out, this is where our friends are, you know, everyone knows our name. They're not going to know Martin's name.

But how do you respond to this? Since do you include this in your homework evidence, Emily? The episode cheerful goodbyes? I would say that in, if I recall correctly, there is an episode in Frasier where they visit Boston and they do attempt to go to Cheers, but the bar happens to be closed that day because Sam's hosting a private event for his baseball team.

So I think that it still counts because he made the effort to go there. And I do think that in this universe, it seems like the kind of bar that Martin would hang out at anyway. Like it- Stand by for a moment before you make your specious speculations. Okay. Because I thought that this was established. Anita of the I'm Listening podcast, cheerful goodbyes. I've not seen this episode of Frasier.

Have you? Season nine. I have. I will be honest. I tend to drop off more after season seven, given certain romantic events. I don't want to ruin or maybe should I say I'm talking as if I don't I don't want to spoil it for anyone. But yes, I have. I have seen the episode. Does Emily describe it faithfully? Do they get into Cheers or not? They do not. They end up all meeting at the airport. And like, I will be honest, it's a bit fuzzy for me, but I believe they're drinking at the airport and they basically try and like recreate and do like a little homage

to Cheers at the airport. It's the airport from Wings, right? Right. That was set in Nantucket, I believe. That was Massachusetts Airport. There was, when I was growing up in Logan Airport, a fake Cheers in the airport with a fake Cliff and Norm sitting at the bar. If they had done that, that would have been so... I mean, this episode came out 2002, season nine of Frasier, when they go. That would have been right in the this episode came out 2002 is season nine of fraser when they go that would have been right in the heart of meta tv but based on my wiki that i'm looking at right now john mahoney does go and meet carla and cliff and norm and paul paul's there too paul's everywhere

just because they did not set foot into cheers er Aaron, I do not see why that does not place John Mahoney's Martin Crane firmly in the Cheers of Hearst. I think my main sticking point here is that the reason that we refer to Sherwood as our Cheers is because, you know, one, we're there all the time, like many of the Cheers regulars. We've made friends with the staff. We are definitely regulars.

And I don't think you can say that Martin Crane is a regular at Cheers. He doesn't, he may exist in the universe, but he doesn't participate in the bar in the same way that we participate in the bar, Sherwood. For a moment, I thought you were doing this incredible thing, sweetie. I thought you were taking this whole discussion, which had been up, up in the air of pure metacom, metacultural commentary. And you were like, let me bring this back home to Sherwood. Let me explain, let me explain to you the feelings I have

when my friend says she is Martin Crane. Let me explain to you what it's like in our real world. I thought that's where you're going, but instead you're like, technically she broke the rules. Because even if it could be established that Martin Crane was part of the Cheersiverse, he was not a regular. And the premise was, which regular of Cheers, which regular cast member of Cheers would you be? Is that pretty typical of Aaron, Emily? Is he a rules follower? Yes, actually.

I submitted another piece of evidence that supports this exact kind of argument in that he's a rules follower. There's a screenshot of a text messages that were exchanged between Sweetie and I, where I was explaining to him that I have a foot injury and I am on a wait list to get an MRI. Right. I have the text message in front of me. Do you have it in front of you?

I do, but you can read it if you'd like. Please. I will perform this scene with you. Oh, okay. In this scene, you shall assay the role of you and I shall assay the role of Lil Sweetie. Start with the text that ends orthopedic surgeon, please. Yeah, so I'm on the wait list and I have to go visit an orthopedic surgeon. Whoa.

Getting an MRI is kind of cool. Yeah, slide me into that laser chamber. It's magnets, but yeah. Who cares? I'm going to come out radioactive. I wonder what my superpower will be. MRIs don't use radiation. I know that.

Okay. God, stop correcting me. Fine. And scene. I don't know what voice I was doing there. Anita, your friend, who's the name of your friend who does the great Kelsey Grammer impersonation? Dan Chamberlain. I'm no Dan Chamberlain.

I did a pretty good Niles Crane on your show. And then I was like failing. Look, it was terrible. And I wasn't even doing the mocking version of Lil Sweetie that I was doing before. There was no consistency in my performance. But I think the point was made. Aaron, you're a stickler for the rules. Yeah, I would like to say that I'm practical. Can I add something? Please. I won't use his last name, but let like to say that I'm practical. Can I add something? Please. I won't use his last name, but let's just say that I recently got into an online fight with somebody in a Frasier fan club named Galileo. And just so you know how I spend my free time.

And I will be honest, I'm starting to be more open to Emily's point of view, mostly because I'm being reminded of the fight I got in with Galileo. And it was over a separate issue, but he too was a stickler for the rules. And I would like to say that I am an open-minded person. Therefore, I feel as if the more I think about Martin Crane, the more I like the idea that his character would hang out at Cheers because there is a bar that he frequents throughout Frasier that is his Cheers. Dukes. Dukes, exactly. I like the idea of breaking down some of these barriers, these barriers of this universe that exists. And I don't want to be as close-minded as Galileo.

And no offense to Sweetie, I'm starting to side with Emily right now because I like the idea of Martin Crane in another life hanging out with everyone from Cheers. With all due respect to the person who named to this case, can we change this to no offense to little Sweetie? I think I've heard everything that I can possibly hear on this subject. I'm about ready to make my verdict. But Jesse Thorne, you came into this hot. You were like ready for a fight. You did not believe that Martin Crane belonged in the

Cheersiverse, if I understood your position correctly. How has your opinion changed or stayed the same? I have strong opinions about every piece of this, John. I am a very deep Cheers partisan in the imagined war that I have imagined between Cheers partisans and Frasier partisans. from watching it on our 10-inch black and white television with my dad after school in our apartment that we shared in which we did not have beds. We literally didn't have beds. We just had blankets on the floor. And I think also that as wonderful as Frasier is,

I think that during its time in the sun, I resented it because it would always win all of the awards because its trappings of fanciness would lead people to think of it as like an intellectual show when in fact it was just a very well executed regular sitcom. And in the world of very well executed regular sitcoms, there can be no king other than Cheers. And I also have deep and passionate feelings about all the many Cheers characters that could have been chosen given the opportunity to choose between all of the characters in Cheers. I mean, the remarkable thing about Cheers above all else is that there are so many main characters and that each and every one of them is perfectly portrayed, both by a brilliant writing staff over many years and by an even more brilliant cast. There are so many choices.

There are so many choices. And if you want to say that your favorite Cheers character is Paul, as I just did, or you want to say it's Harry Anderson, or you want to say it's Dan Hedaya or whatever, I think it is a thumb in the nose or a thumb in the eye or whatever the expression is to Cheers that you would choose a Frasier character as the best character from Cheers. Well, since we understand the stakes are extremely high, I want to ask Aaron. Aaron, these stakes are extremely low. Who cares? Why does it matter to you? What is it to damage you for Emily to make this claim? I think ultimately, like a lot of disagreements that Emily and I get into from time to time about this level of, you know, importance, a lot of it is just about being right. I know that ultimately this won't make a big difference in our friendship, whichever the way this goes, but...

You're saying that it's important to you to be right? Yes. When you know you're right and the other person can't accept it, that is distracting to you? Yeah, I think that's fair to say. Great. Thank you, by the way, for finding the crux and revealing the deeper emotional undercurrent behind this dispute. It is the trademark of the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

I basically had blown it off for the past hour because I just like talking about television, too. So I appreciate your keeping me on brand while you're also trying to protect the brand of Cheers. If I were to rule in your favor, Aaron, what would you have me rule? I would want Emily to pick a Cheers character and say definitively that she is that Cheers character. I think we originally set out that we would whoever wins buys the other a drink. Without saying it do you have a character in mind? Yeah I do. Don't say it. Emily if I were to rule in your favor how would you want me to rule? I would want you to rule that Sweetie has to allow me to identify with Martin Crane because they are in the same

universe. And he would have to buy me the drink at the bar, but also to be a little bit more open-minded and accepting of my playful, creative brain. Yeah. Okay. And just, I mean, this is truly speculative and hypothetical. Okay. And just, I mean, this is truly speculative and hypothetical. If I were to rule in Aaron's favor and compel you under order of fake internet court to name a main recurring character of Cheers, and you know who I'm talking about, all of our friends in the Cheers, in Cheers to identify with. Do you have someone in mind? Yes. Okay. So hold on that while I go into Sam's office and think this over a little bit more and I'll be back in a moment with my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Emily,

how are you feeling? I'm feeling pretty confident, to be honest. I didn't feel confident coming into it, but I think the evidence kind of speaks in my favor, so I feel pretty good. Did you not feel confident going into it because you knew your argument was almost entirely specious? No, I would say more just that I felt nervous and that I wouldn't be able to speak to my case. But I think the evidence speaks for itself. Lil Sweetums brand tangerines. How do you feel about your chance in the case? I am almost the opposite.

I came in feeling quite confident and now seeing the direction it's taken, I'm unsure now what way it's going to go. How do you feel about the fact that, frankly, my future participation in this podcast may hinge on the results? I hope for both of our sakes then and that it is in my favor. I hope you didn't mess this up for everybody, Aaron. Oh, sorry, Jesse. We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say when we come back in just a second. Ooh, sorry, Jesse.

We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say when we come back in just a second. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in

the halls. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. So, you know, I grew up watching Cheers and I grew up in Brookline, Massachusetts, a region of British Columbia. That's a. I'm not sure if you know that, Jessie. It's part of the western part of Canada. I loved watching Cheers with my family. I loved that my family in Philadelphia loved watching Cheers. I realized that it wasn't just a Boston thing. Two northeastern cities could relate to it. Maybe it was even more universal to see these friends from different walks of life coming together and being in a place where they could make fun of each other and comfortably live together. They had more alike than they had different. That's for sure. You just look at that show now. You're like, wow,

how is it possible they got away with that particular Caucasian cast? But it was still like Frasier itself presents a kind of universal humanity that people can really attach to. like Frasier itself, presents a kind of universal humanity that people can really attach to. And I thought got something really right about Boston, that Boston is this, it's a fairly sizable town that imagines itself a city, but is densely occupied by this long tradition of working class people in this long tradition of snooty upper class people, two worlds that I kind of grew up between with my, my being a really snooty upper-class person, my parents being the first in their families to go to college and my grandparents being working class people. So it was very meaningful to me, but all of that meant

nothing until, I mean, it meant something, but it didn't really click in until the show was ending. And I watched the cast with, you know, lived and worked together essentially for, you know, a decade or however long it was. And just how much fun they have with each other. And for me, I was like, if I ever have a job, that would be the greatest job to have. To just be working with people who really inspire and delight you. And you get to be with them all the time. And I despaired because even though I liked my job at the literary agency at the time, I didn't have that.

And I thought I would never have it. job at the literary agency at the time. I didn't have that. And I thought I would never have it. And then very unexpectedly, I did have it in two ways, both at the Daily Show and the Apple ads. I was on television and doing the job that I loved the most with people who constantly made me laugh and inspire me. I felt so of the many, I often feel like I got lucky because I got to have a cheers job. Honestly, if I think of who I would be in that bar, if I had to pick my own person, I kind of feel like Paul. Like, I feel like I'm just happy to be there. You know, like, I don't need to be a main character. As in my entire career, I just felt lucky to be there. And I felt happy that I could just throw in a line or two,

in part because I just felt so lucky to be there, in part because I don't like working that hard. And indeed, that's what I got to do on lots of different shows, like Bored to Death, where I worked with Ted Danson. I got to do it. I got to be on. I worked at the Old Town Bar with Ted Danson in New York City, a bar that I used to go to. Forget it. It just means too much to me. I feel so happy that I got to have been a Paul, a fly on the barstool of this experience. And you can read all about it in Medallion Status, new book by me, John Hodgman. So here are my rulings. Having listened to Anita Flores, host of I'm Listening, a Frasier podcast.

Having listened to my bailiff, Jesse Thorne. Having listened to our litigants, Aaron and Emily, and their own arguments. our litigants, Aaron and Emily, and their own arguments. Having looked into my own expertise as obviously, by extension, an obvious member of the Cheersiverse. I worked with Ted Danson, right? That's got to count. I worked with B.B. Neuwirth. I sat on a different situation.

I sat on a bar stool next to George Wendt at a charity event, at a bar, I sat next to him in the Claven position. I didn't say anything because that poor guy can't sit at any bar without ever getting it, you know, and I can say this. Martin Crane is in the cheers of hers. Sorry, Jesse.

It's obvious. It was established by retroactive continuity by the writers of Frazier. It was established by the fact that he, that character went to Boston to go to Cheers. He entered the Cheersiverse at the end of Frasier. Even though that retroactive continuity is somewhat inelegant and unbelievable, that is an established way of shoehorning characters into existing properties. You can't read comic books without believing in retcons. Anita so expertly pointed out the messiness of how character actors appear in one thing and the other, and there aren't strict lines between it.

We also know that the cast of St. Elsewhere visited Cheers, and everything exists in the Tommy Westfalliverse. Look it up on the internet. And most of all, I know this because I texted someone during the course of this podcast. I didn't know if I would hear anything back, but I texted someone I know. And I said, I have a question. Someone on my podcast is maintaining that Martin Crane counts as a Cheers character. Do you have an opinion on this? And this person wrote back, I agree. I just watched the clip of his episode.

How wonderful he is on the show. That person was Ted Danson. Yes. on the show that person was ted danson yes i am appealing to steve virgin so i mean honestly ted's answer was a little bit not clear i asked do you have an opinion on this and he said i agree it's kind of having it both ways not really clear what episode it was he was watching but i think all signs point to yes that you can say that martin crane is a member of the cheers verse so if that is what you're asking me to rule then i have to rule in emily's favor however i will also say that Aaron, you're not a Frasier Crane because Frasier Crane could deal with ambiguity. Frasier Crane had been so tortured in life and had caused so

much emotional damage and had so much more visited back upon him that the reason Frasier Crane is the star of the show is that his belief in order and rules has been already shaken to a degree that he's able to surrender from time to time to chaos. You know who isn't? Niles. Niles would be the one saying, well, Frazier, you didn't properly follow the rules. So what's weird is that you're not a part of the Cheersiverse either. weird is that you're not a part of the cheers of earth either or at least your identification is more in the fraser universe just like your friend emily emily you didn't follow the rules you broke the rules and i like that i like your creative thinking i think aaron should appreciate that

about you thank you but just as a thought experiment let's all say who we think emily is in the in the cheersiverse, in the main cast. We'll say it on three, all three of us. You ready? This is not binding. I'm going to say one, two, three, and after three, we all say our characters that we think. This is an homage to the Doughboys. They're part of the Judd-John Hodgman-iverse.

One, two, three. Norm. Norm. I guess the Norms have it. This. I guess the norms have it. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

It is with a heavy heart, Aaron and Emily, that I submit my resignation. heart, Aaron and Emily, that I submit my resignation as bailiff on the Judge John Hodgman podcast, having disrespected the memory of my still living father and our apartment on Godia Street that didn't have beds. I must separate myself here and forever from Judge John Hodgman. That said, I've got a few things to handle here. Hey, everyone, please welcome our new bailiff, Kirstie Alley. Aaron, how do you feel? Not great, Jesse, but I can I can handle it. It's OK. I feel like I'm not the pedantic jerk that I may have come across as. But I can accept this ruling and I will abide by it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell it to my new boss, Judge Mary Steenburgen. Emily, how do you feel? I feel amazing. I feel on top of the world. I feel great. Looking feel on top of the world. I feel great. Looking down on creation, huh? But I'm sorry for the loss of your job.

It's okay. Thank you for apologizing to me in that funny Canadian way. Erin, Emily, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-p-p-o-d-c-a-s-t-i hmm are you trying to put the name of the podcast there yeah i'm trying to spell it but it's tricky let me give it a try okay if you need a laugh and you're on the go call s-t-o-p-P-P-A-D-I will never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close.

Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books. In a moment, we'll have swift justice. First, our thanks to Anita Flores. Everybody should check out her podcast. Anita, you also have a show coming up in New York, right?

Yes, I do. It's called Party of Two. It's at the Pleasure Chest. I know this is a family-friendly show. It's a sexy shop. Let's at the Pleasure Chest. I know this is a family-friendly show. It's a sexy shop. Let's just put it that way. It's comedians and storytellers talking about the absurdity of dating in New York. So that show is on November 16th at 7.30 p.m. at the Pleasure Chest in the Upper East Side. Oh, that's great. And by sexy shop, we specifically mean that they sell Ted Dansons?

That's right. Exactly. Cardboard cutouts. Yes. Anita's on Instagram and Twitter at AnitaJutina. Anita, it's been a joy to have you on the show. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Our thanks to Yippee-Ki-Yay for naming this week's episode. Oh, I do so hope that that's a legal name. episode. Oh, I do so hope that that's a legal name. If you'd like to name a future episode of the show, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we regularly put out calls for submissions there. You can follow us on Twitter. John is at Hodgman. I am at Jesse Thorne. Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJHO to get in on the conversation. You can also chat about this episode at MaximumFun.Reddit.com if you're a Redditor.

Our show is on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. I think we'll just be having Hannah post a lot of pictures of Paul. Yes, yes. Make sure to follow us there. This week's episode recorded by Justin LaPointe at Electric City Sound.

Our producer is Hannah Smith. Our editor is Jesus Ambrosio. Now, Swift Justice, your small disputes, our quick judgment. Ruby asks, what's the best milk spot in the fridge? I grew up putting milk in the door. My partner Liv says milk belongs in the middle shelf of the main fridge. Help! says milk belongs in the middle shelf of the main fridge.

Help! I have put it in the door, and I have put it in the bottom shelf, and I put it in the middle shelf. My only rule is it's going to be on the right-hand side, because that's my go-to. I'm right-handed, and I'm going to get that milk. Put it wherever you want. That's not going to solve your problem, but I don't care about any problems anymore.

I just realized I'm part of the cheers-a-verse. That's about it for this week's episode. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO or email Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. No case is too small. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. MaximumFun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Audience supported.