Judge John Hodgman - Odor in the Court

Episode Date: July 17, 2013

Andrea says her boyfriend Christopher doesn't shower or change his clothes often enough. Christopher says it's his aesthetic, he doesn't smell, and he's happy the way he is! This episode with Jesse Thorn on the Judge's bench!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast, guest starring Judge Jesse Thorne. I'm your bailiff, Jordan Morris. This week, odor in the court. Christopher brings the case against his girlfriend, Andrea. Andrea says that Christopher re-wears his clothing too often and doesn't care for the clothes properly. Christopher says that he doesn't smell and he's happy with the way the clothes look. So what's the problem? Who's right? Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge Jesse Thorne enters the courtroom. Hello, everyone. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Please hold your applause for the end. Bailiff Morris, would you please swear the parties in? Christopher and Andrea, please

raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, to help you God or just the universe or, I don't know, the spirit of love? Yes. Do you swear to abide by Judge Jesse Thorne's ruling, even though he's constantly traveling in a cloud of cartoon filth like Pigpen from the Peanuts? Yes. Yes.

I'm not sure what that is. It's very funny to Americans. Thank you. Judge Thorne, you may proceed. You guys would probably recognize something about some weird cartoon guys that go to a boarding school and they're in a comic book that's too small. Oh, Banana Man.

Don't you guys have Banana Man over there? You have Banana Man. I don't have Banana Man in Spain, no. Andrea, excuse me, Andrea. Andrea, Christopher, welcome to the courtroom. Christopher, you've brought this case. Can you please tell me exactly what the static is? In a nutshell, because it's kind of multi-layered, like a trifle, but I think it's...

I don't know what that is. I wear sort of raggedy clothes, and I like them them but Andrea doesn't like them or I really get the impression that she really likes the way I used to dress and that's not how it is anymore I also don't smell

nor do I shower so what do you hold on what do you take hamster showers? dust bath? a shower. Hold on. What do you take? Hamster showers? Dust bath? I don't. I just don't.

If I smell, then I'll shower. But other than that, then I don't really do much. And I'll repeat. I'll repeatedly wear the same sorts of clothes until I've ground them down to, you know, nothing but thread. When you say you'll repeatedly wear the same sort of clothes, you mean the same sort of clothes until I've ground them down to nothing but thread. When you say you'll repeatedly wear the same sort of clothes, you mean the same category of clothes, like you'll repeatedly wear trousers on your lower half and shirts on your upper half? Or do you mean that you will repeatedly wear literally the same piece of clothing?

Both of those statements, yes. I'll wear the same clothes. You mentioned that your style of dress has changed. When you guys met, were you an investment banker and now are you a gypsy pickpocket? That's not too far from the truth. No, wait a minute. It is. I wasn't an investment banker, but I do look like a ragamuffin pickpocket now. I've got that kind of uh who was that guy

i can understand that you've got a picket pocket or two um yeah i i i used to dress with shirts like um and they were pink and i suppose investment bankers wore those what do you wear now instead of shirts you've abandoned shirts i've i've abandoned shirts. I've abandoned shirts. I have kind of. Maybe you should explain what you're wearing right now. Hold on. I wanted before we get into all the specifics of what you're wearing right now. Andrea, I'm amazed that Christopher would choose to say all these things about himself. I mean, traditionally, these are things that you would say about him in a complaining type fashion. But can you tell me what are your issues with his manner of dress and his personal hygiene and his weird attitude about those things?

Yeah. Well, obviously, I enjoy his attitude because he's taken it to the level of comedy. Not on purpose. Not unlike Pigpen from Peanuts. Again, this is very funny to Americans. But I think the point where I get maybe most annoyed with, even though maybe I shouldn't, is when, for example, he comes back from work the whole day, and then he goes into bed with those clothes

and then he waits till the last minute to go to work again with those clothes again so it's just like a cycle where there's no stopping there's no even oh I'm gonna change my socks or it's just like going from one bed work you know wearing the same things. Christopher, do you change your undergarments every day? No, I don't. I think if you asked that of everybody, you would get a, people would say yes, but I think the reality of it is 95% of people do not change their undergarments.

Not true, not true. Not true. Incorrect. Bad math. You are absolutely incorrect. I just moved into a new house. I have no laundry facilities, and yet I have managed to change my socks and underwear with each successive day.

Each day brings a new underpant and a new sock to each of my feet. Boy, is this going to be the shortest episode ever? I mean, can we just string them up? Okay, so Christopher, obviously you're making some sickening choices. This is Europe, you know. It's all nasty teeth. We bathe ourselves in the canal. I think you're thinking of Elizabethan Europe.

You may be describing a time when there was a man whose job it was to pick excrement up out of the Thames. They do that here because there's canals everywhere. Every year they have to haul up all the excrement. That really happens. Yeah, but I'm sure the guys who are hauling up the excrement change their underwear every day. Okay, Andrea, Christopher has told us that he doesn't ever smell. Is that correct?

Yeah, it is true, but it doesn't mean that he smells well, you know, it's just like, maybe it's true that when he starts smelling of sweat, then he would have a shower, but sometimes it's me the one suggesting it. So sometimes I really have to say like, hey, okay, now it's time to go to the bath. Now it's time to go to the bath. Andrea, is it possible that either of you are facing the sort of situation that, say, a sanitation worker says they will face, which is to say that after a certain amount of time working in the dump, you no longer smell the odor of garbage? Yeah, it could be true a lot. Well, no, but then that would mean that other people would say that I smell. No, they would not say that. They would not say that,

Christopher. That would be rude. They would just avoid you from there on out. But no, this is, but we're in Holland and they're quite straightforward, I would say. People are quite matter-of-factly and they just go, boosh. By straightforward, of would say. People are quite matter-of-factly, and they just go, By straightforward, of course you mean totally baked.

Oh, man. We're going to have a lot of fun talking about Holland stuff on this show, aren't we, Jordan? Sure. All three of the things. Yeah. What do you got? Number one, you got baked.

Wooden shoes. Wooden shoes, and you got dykes. Yeah. Fingers in dykes. Sure. That's fun. Don't put your finger in a dyke. Yeah. Fingers in dykes. Sure. That's fun. If you're in a dyke. Um,

okay. Well, if it sprung a leak, what are you supposed to do? Uh, God, Christopher, how long have you gone without showering specifically?

How, how long in like the last few years? What's the longest stretch of time you spent without allowing the cleansing water that's brought to your house through the convenience of indoor plumbing to touch your body? I'd say about just over two weeks. But I would say. Wait, wait, wait. Hold on.

Hear me out. So three weeks? No, no, no, no. I'd say two weeks, two days. It was something like that. And that was in 2010 now and it was because um uh it it rained twice on the way home why do you happen to be nude you're not a car but it was summer so it was I was wearing just swimming shorts and like a vest and i got drenched hold on stop let's i'm more upset even than the by the

fact that you spent two weeks without washing by the fact that you were walking around in public streets wearing swimming trunks and a vest i've just been to have a swim in the canal which i also counted as a sort of shower. You mean the excrement canal? No, there are some... There are the ones that kind of like... Shut your pie hole. Oh, boy. Christopher, we've established how long

you've taken between showers. How long have you worn the exact same clothes? And I want to hear both full set of clothes, including socks and to hear both full set of clothes, including socks and underwear and full set of clothes, but you changed your socks and underwear. Oh,

and no, and no saying that you changed an accessory access. Accessorizing is not changing your clothes. No, I don't really accessorize either, but he doesn't strike me as a guy who has a lot of neckerchiefs and ascots. I change my clothes regularly,

like once every two or three days. But those clothes, there's a cycle of these clothes. So, you know, it's sort of like something gets taken off, gets put on the pile, and then another thing gets taken from the bottom of these clothes. So, you know, it's sort of like, uh, something gets taken off, gets put on the pile. And then another thing gets taken from the bottom of the pile. You have a pile. You have a pile. Listen to yourself.

All right. Andrea, as I understand it, you've submitted a photograph of the pile. In the garbage bag. Um, this pile is garbage bag. Yeah.

Uh, bailiff Morris, could you bring me those photographs? Yes, I will, of course. Okay, so, Andrea, I'm looking at these photographs. Can you describe to me what I'm seeing? Is it the one where you see three black bags? I see three black bags and I see a chair. Yeah, okay.

So, you see like a wardrobe and then there's some clothes that are being folded. And then there's some spaces that are free. Those are supposed to be the spaces for Christopher's clothes. But instead of being in the wardrobe, they are in the middle of the room in garbage bags. I mean, it could just be that Christopher uses the wardrobe to travel to magical land. Got to keep it clean. Sure. Now, I also see another photograph.

This looks like a comfortable armchair. Oh, yeah, this one where I'm sitting. Yeah, that's usually how he would just leave his clothes around. That's usually how he would just leave his clothes around. This armchair is completely covered in what look like soiled clothes. Yeah. Soiled in rain and canal water. Yeah, and then one day he would just exchange them.

So he picks one and then leaves another one, but without cleaning them. So, Andrea, I have to ask you this question. Christopher is obviously a disgusting man. With personal habits that would barely satisfy a hobo in the Tudor times. That's the 17th century, if I'm not mistaken. I may well be mistaken. Please do not email me. Tell me, you're the one who lives with him.

Did you move in with him knowing full well that he was a disgusting greaseball? No. I knew that he didn't like showering, that he doesn't like getting wet generally. So that's all I knew. Christopher, are you a witch? No. No. I'm not a gremlin or a witch or a mog? No. No. I'm not a gremlin or a witch or a mogwai.

I just don't like water. Did water do something to you? It's just showers are kind of unpleasant. You know? No. I believe the exact opposite. They're great. They're soothing.

Showers are probably one of the best things. Right up there with the ready availability of ice cream, I would soothing. Probably one of the best things. Right up there with the ready availability of ice cream, I would say they're one of the best things about living a modern industrialized life. But, okay, all right. Let me. Maybe the Dutch shower is something different. No, that's a euphemism. It's just a shower of tasty buds.

Yeah. Can I? When you take a Dutch shower, do you ever find yourself afterwards to be sticky icky icky? Anyway, tulips. Yeah. Go ahead, Jordan. It seems like something that I noticed

early in the conversation that I'd like to know a little bit more about. It seems like at some point during the relationship, you've changed your either job or lifestyle or something like that. I wonder if that has anything to do with this. I'd like to hear from both of you what that change was. Andrea, maybe you could start. He was studying art and now he's an artist. So that's maybe he's more comfortable with the fact that he's an artist and he's following this role. No.

I think he's got definitely an identity crisis. What? Yeah, you told me that. You told me that the clothes were like that you don't want to follow any fashion, that you want to break rules and then you're trying to find your way of, like, yeah, by breaking rules, you're finding yourself or something. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, is there any, I guess, I mean, I just don't like water.

It's a very compelling argument, but is there an ethos behind this that we should know about? Is this like Karl Lagerfeld wearing those weird collars and all black and those crazy sunglasses? Me? When I dress now? Yeah. No, no, no. Although I did go through a black stage. I thought, I'll try out the black stage. You know, but that's weird because I've heard that you never go back. It's weird that you never go back. It's weird that you. So tell me, tell me what, what is the reason

that you have chosen to wear the same clothes over and over indefinitely? Is there, is there an intellectual reason? Yeah, I guess like I, I, Andrea, I think sent some evidence before of how I used to dress and I really dressed a bit hipsterish and like wearing just superfluous braces uh suspenders um with like shirts tucked into my trousers with tight skinny jeans and it was just impractical and it was just very you know of the times and, you know, I have to change my dress code according to my social gathering. And that will change every half a year. And I just didn't really want to be in that little weird race anymore where, oh, I dress a little better than you. Hey, look at my plumage. It's better than yours. plumage is better than yours. Christopher, I don't mean to interject here, but I do mean to interject. Do you think the reason your social

gathering, as you put it, is changing every six months is because you don't shower? This was in his showering peacocking days. Gotcha. Let me wrap up the showering thing. Look, I don't shower because I don't smell.

And I think that if I don't smell, then I don't need to. I'm not smearing poop everywhere. I'm not infecting people as far as I know. Andrea isn't infected. She does have a rash on the neck at the moment, but that's not me. It's fine. My clothes don't smell, so therefore I, it's fine. My clothes, my clothes don't smell. So I, therefore I can rewear them. And then I, I put my hands up. If someone says I smell, I will have a shower. Uh, and if someone says your clothes smell, then I will wash them or at least I will put them in a pile where they will be washed at a later date. So that's the kind of shower. After you've worn them a few more times. I'll wear them a few more times. After you've warned them a few more times. Or wet them a few more times. Andrea, you've submitted to me a photograph of, actually two photographs of Christopher before he became a street person. I'm looking at a photograph of Christopher.

It looks like perhaps boating. Maybe he's looking for excrement on the Thames. Could you describe to me what he's wearing? Yeah, he's wearing a pink shirt and some kind of curry color trousers that were kind of tight. And then he wears this, how do you call those shoes that are open? They have no shoelaces and they have like... A loafer? Yeah, it's like a loaf, penny loafers or something.

Yeah, yeah. That kind of stuff. And I think that's it. It looks like he's also in this photograph on his lapel wearing a small human figure. Is that true? Oh, yeah, yeah, on his lapel, wearing a small human figure. Is that true? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe.

Yeah, he used to wear, like, how do you call it? A badge? No, like a brooch. Yeah, like a brooch that he would make himself or he would find something and put it on. Okay, so I have a couple of concerns first of all i feel like i don't trust either of you to determine whether christopher is smelly if christopher have you ever spoken to a clean person who had no social interest in telling you that you were, uh, that, that you smelled fine, such as for example, you know, just getting you to get out of line at a fast food restaurant or whatever.

Um, and had them tell you, yes, you always smell fine. I, um, to friends, I have been known on occasion to say, hey, I don't smell, smell me. And then I say, do I smell? And people often say, no, you don't smell or you smell normal. And I lift up my armpits and people dig in and it's no problem. Christopher, I'm looking at a photograph of your head in profile. And on your head is a majestic pile of hair. Oh, oh, is that the one?

It's like the crown of my head or something. Yes. Maybe you could describe to me what your hair is up to. I cut that off as soon as you took that because I didn't know that I had a sort of bird on my head. I couldn't see the back of my head. The hair on the front is normal. I think there's another photograph, but I can't see what's up there. I don't really know. If only there was some sort of professional you could hire to take a look at your head and shape what's there into something that would

be pleasing to others. A sort of hair chopper. A bar boar. Do you give yourself haircuts, Christopher? Yes. I don't know if this is part of the argument or not. It might be a factor. Are you two destitute?

I mean, you have an artist's lifestyle. I mean, I get the impression that Amsterdam probably isn't a cheap place to live. Do you guys have an income stream? Can you afford shampoos and the occasional haircut? Yes, yes, we both can. We've got a kind of low budget, but yeah low budget but we're doing it we're all right i mean i i think i have no problems with yeah i think andrea earns a little less than me at the moment and she has plenty of shampoos so i have no excuse but um i don't

need to have one so i'm all right i've got one shampoo. When you say one shampoo, you just mean a single application of shampoo that you stole from a Motel 6? I actually got it, I think, a year ago. It's the same one. He just got it in a prize pack. You know, sometimes I feel like when people are in a couple for a long time, you know, they kind of dress to compliment each other. Can you guys describe how Andrea dresses on a day-to-day basis? Well, I think she dresses very well. I'm not sure how to... Well well maybe it's well in your eyes

I guess I'm not the most neat smart person in an objective I'm not a banker either you're clearly not smart you're dating this guy I also have clothes with holes

and paint on them and I don't mind wearing old clothes. But she pulls it off with panache. I think she makes it into... She uses the raggedy style to her advantage. It's kind of like loose-fitting clothing, but put together in a very good way. Like a Stevie Nicks type situation?

Who's Stevie Nicks? Very funny in America. Very, very funny. Very funny in America. This will all be very funny to America. She's a character from the cartoon strip Marmaduke. You guys wouldn't know that because you're not American. Andrea, let me ask you this question. How does Christopher's manner of dress and his choices around hygiene affect your life? They don't affect me, how would you say, my life.

It's just more of a personal issue I just feel like if he's not really properly taking care of himself that means that he doesn't really care about himself which means that he's not very being respectful with me either so how can you you know show someone that you respect them if you're really just like looking of looking just thinking of whatever you you feel or think like he says yeah I don't cut the hair the back of my head because of my hair because I don't see it so then I don't he doesn't care about what other people are seeing you know. Is it an issue Andrea when the two of you are out together for example? Well I'm not not embarrassed, really. I mean, he's always been kind of special,

creative with his clothes. But I guess it's more when I suggest something and he gets annoyed that I'm suggesting because I don't give him the freedom. So I just completely ignore it now, but still wonder sometimes, like, why is he wearing wearing this or why is he repeating so much his clothes i i have to ask you a relatively personal question now andrea yeah when his hygiene is as poor as it is and when he dresses in the manner that he does does this compromise your romantic interest in him and i'm speaking advisedly because this is a family program but does this compromise your romantic interest in him? I'm speaking advisedly because this is a family program, but does this compromise your romantic interest in him, or does it enhance his romantic appeal

as, say, the dirtiness of Kesha might for certain people who I won't name? I think it makes it worse. The, how do you say it? The attraction. This is something to be delicate about, of course. But Chris, have you noticed that since you've, you know, adopted this new, you know, approach to dressing,

what are the trips to Pound Town like? Have they been... Are they less frequent? Let's talk about the quality of the trips, and of course, I'm being delicate here. This needs to be... This is sensitive.

The PG-rated program that just became a PG13 rated program. Probably the best thing about going to Pound Town is they're not really bothered about what you wear. In fact, they have

a no clothes policy, so it's not much of a problem. What about the aftermath? The aftermath? In Pound Town? You mean like putting clothes back on? I'm not going to get too far into it. Sure.

I guess there's certain... I can't think of a delicate way to discuss the aftermath of Pound Town. I guess there are certain things that you want to do. When your partner is clean, there are certain things that you want to do when your partner is clean. There are certain things that you want to do versus when they're dirty. It's like I'm just talking about variety. Do you feel like you're getting all of the stuff? I select my showers and I select them for the moments that I need to have them. And I mean going to Poundtown, it's a special occasion

and you need to dress for the occasion. So showering is, I've always done this, like for as long as I can remember. And I am very conscious about smells because I remember when my dad, he told me one day when I was a young boy, he said, you need some deodorant. And he just said it like that, very matter of fact. And I felt so ashamed. And it's like when you have like spinach on your teeth or a bird poo on your head and no one tells you until, you know, hours later. And then you just keep looking back and go, oh god how long have i been smelling for i mean i've been

rolling around and rocking up for dinner and i've been smelling and then my mom also hates smelly people she was on the bus one time with or she was somewhere i was with her and then she got very very angry with a man that smelled and she said he was antisocial so i've i've tried my best not to smell and i do use you know anti-smelling products uh to curb the smell do you ever exercise do you ever ride around on one of those funny dutch bicycles with a little basket in the or play soccer ball or... Yeah, riding around is a... Or dance. Yeah, of course. Yeah, we have to do it every day.

It's like, it's transport. So do you take the opportunity after exercising to clean yourself? Well, I don't get that sweaty i guess you do okay you just got busted no okay i don't i just sometimes i do sometimes i don't you know and if i get sweaty you know there's like sweaty, sweat can be good. You shouldn't wash off your sweat all

the time. We live in a far too cleaner culture, you know. It's like, yeah, you should wash all the time and buy our stuff to make you clean because if you don't then, you know, people aren't going to like you. Well, it's fine because you need the crusty sweat to, you know, get crystals or some science, I

don't know. Some science on your body. Yeah, get some science on your body. You need it. You shouldn't shower all the time. You need the crusty sweat to gather some crystals? Are you suggesting that we're living in the tyranny of the crystal industrial complex where the crystal industry is using our sweat to build its precious crystals. Yeah, man, we're all being held down by big crystal.

To a degree. I don't know. It's just, it's fine. No one's, I'm not bothering anybody else. I'm, am I bothering you, Andrea, with the smelling and the non-showering? Do you know when I shower and when I don't? Yeah. Oh.

Why do you think you're in court, Christopher? You think it's happenstance? You think we've been cold calling people? Andrea, shut your pie hole, Christopher. Andrea, what remedy for this situation do you think would be appropriate? I guess a balance, a bit of a balance. Because it seems like you're just like a wild wild sheep i don't know what doing whatever you want getting crystals all over your body and and in the meantime i'm just here

like hey but what about me um so i don't know i mean it is true that the smell is not the bother because it's true that it's not like a homeless person smell you know it's not something that really is it's just like yeah if he's smelly he showers or I tell him to shower whatever I think it's the whole routine you know when when one thing is next to the other when there there's not much shower but also there's not much change of clothes and also there's not much cleaning the clothes or the house or the hair or whatever. And then all of that together, I think it's when it becomes a bit like,

okay, but do you actually care about me? So I think just taking a bit more care or trying to see how would you feel if I was like that. If you were happy, then I'd be happy. You know, this is maybe a consideration. How old are you guys? 25. 25, yeah.

And can you guys tell me what, you know, what you guys want your kind of life to be moving forward? Do you want to stay artists? Do you hope to move into a more traditional job at some point? Where do you guys see yourselves in five years? Probably banking, right? Probably banking. Into more and more chaos, I'm afraid. into more and more chaos, I'm afraid.

I like the idea that Andrea is a Spanish anarchist. She's going to start assassinating archdukes. So you want him to start wearing more Guy Fawkes masks? What? Christopher, I have to ask you this question. How often would you say your clothes get washed? I want to start with in terms of number of wearings. I want you to describe socks and underwear.

I want you to describe trousers. And I want you to describe shirts. And then you can go on to, you know, outerwear. And then, of course, your tuxedos. Ah, never mind. White tie, black tie, informal black tie. How often do you polish your monocles?

Exactly. Well, everything... I don't have a monocle. I think those are black nails. Oh, no, no. Andrea was pointing at me like, yeah, you wash your monocle. They all get washed together.

Everything gets all washed at one time. So when the underwear runs out, then everything gets washed. On average, how many times do you wear your underwear before it goes in the wash? Like three days. Three days, I'd say. On average? Yeah. Three days what? Three days I wear my underwear and then it gets put in the wash? Like three days, three days, I'd say. On average. Yeah. Three days what? Three days I wear my underwear and then it gets put in the wash. Yeah. I'm not, I don't know. I'm not pooping in them, so it's fine. What about, what about shirts? Shirts are the same thing. They all

get washed. It's about, I'd say every month and a half to two months does everything get washed. a half to two months does everything get washed and i know that can that sounds you know unreasonable but andrea does the same thing she washes everything every one and a half to two months girls have more clothes than boys yeah well boys who aren't me yeah most boys you're typical boys so christopher we're talking about three wears for socks and underwear. How many wears for shirts? Before they get washed.

Between washes. I don't know. I mean, it can go a long time. It's just if it doesn't smell. If I did some real physical exertion in that thing, then sure, it's gone straight away.

But on average, maybe like sort of three weeks or something. So you're talking about 20 wears? You mean three weeks worn continuously? Andrea, I trust you. What's your opinion? About how many times does he wear a shirt before he washes it? Yeah, I would say it might be three weeks. But what he does, for example, with underwear.

It's cumulative, though. The three weeks are cumulative. Like it's like two days here, three days there, another four days, like two weeks down the line. I can hear you accumulating days. I think he's using now maybe, I he has he does have a lot of clothes but he's using like a what two percent of your clothes at the moment i sold lots of them yeah you saw lots of them but you don't use them so um he's now maybe using three or four shirts and and and the average of of washing clothes is still a month like every month

so i think that says we're looking at at least 10 wearings oh at least at least yeah for sure maybe more in terms of wears it's going to be 20 wears i reckon christopher what would you like to see come out of this case i just want to, I'm not bothering really anybody. And I don't want to just be told to do something just because everyone else is doing it. You know, like, hey, you shouldn't wear raggedy clothes because we're all being clean. And then you should shower more. And I say, why? Because you should.

I don't smell. What's the problem, mister? And I just don't want to be told to do things that seem unnecessary. I'm happy doing, I am happy the way I am. Do you think that you have responsibilities to others because of social convention that are of value simply because there is value in having social conventions? I understand the social convention and I understand that if I smell, then then it is very antisocial and unpleasant for other people. And I would definitely take

note of that and shower immediately. Same for clothes. But I know I don't really seem to offend anybody else apart from Andrea with the clothes. And I don't I don't want to wear I don't look in the mirror, really. And I don't want to wear my clothes for other people anymore. I want to wear my clothes for practical purposes. I mean, I don't I just don't want. And I don't want to wear my clothes for other people anymore. I want to wear my clothes for practical purposes. I mean, I don't, I just don't want to be viewed just as my clothes. Are you just going to stop wearing clothes and start wearing chain mail?

Pretty practical. Yeah. I'm seeing maybe an industrial jumpsuit. Yeah. Have you thought about switching to jumpsuits? I did think about switching to jumpsuits, but I look like a knob, so I stopped immediately. Oh, really?

But you don't wear clothes for other people, huh? Yeah. Well, no, I wasn't wearing the jumpsuits for other people. The jumpsuit was purely practical. It was like, you just wear, it's like a onesie, right? Is that a jumpsuit? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's like, and it's like,

and it's for painting and stuff. I have one, and I thought it was brilliant because I thought, oh, I don't need to think about anything else anymore. But I looked like a giant blue smarty. Two other people. Two other people. What, with the jumpsuit?

Yeah, well, I don't want to draw attention. At the end of the day, I also don't want to draw attention to myself by looking like a blue smarty. You know, I want to kind of blend seamlessly a little bit. Well, Christopher, Andrea, I appreciate you sharing your arguments with me. I'm going to retire to my chambers and consider my decision. Okay. Thank you.

Yeah, thanks. While Judge Thorne is considering his decision, let me talk to you guys for a little bit. Andrea, let's go into a fantasy world here. You and Chris are going out to a nice dinner. What would you like him to wear? I would like him to wear a shirt that he hasn't broken on purpose. Yeah. Or like some trousers that he hasn't worn for the last two weeks.

And some nice clean underwear and socks, and I think that's enough. Okay, Chris, that sounds reasonable to you? Yeah, it's reasonable. I'd do it. If we were going out for a nice meal, I'd definitely take that occasion to put on some clean underwear. Chris, do you think that this image that you're projecting, this utilitarian image, do you think that is part of your success or not success in the art world? No, no, I don't think it's got anything to do with it but no possibly i i i am working uh

more i i want i i definitely want to make work uh that speaks for itself rather than the an image behind the work i'm not doing it on purpose, though. It's just, it's come naturally, this whole thing. And I think I've just become, as I've been more at art school and then coming out, it's made me question a lot about why am I dressing the way I am and who do I need to please by doing so? Can't I just be recognized for what I do and who I am

rather than what I dress like? Andrea, have you thought about maybe surprising him with a bath, maybe just while dumping some water and shampoo on him while he's sleeping? That would be amazing. Yeah. No, I haven't thought about that. I've tried to say, oh, wow, a nice shower now, because I love showering, but it doesn't work.

It just doesn't work. And guys, how do you think Judge Thorne is going to rule in this case? Andrea, let's start with you. How do you think the ruling is going to go down? I'm quite confused myself because

even though I'm the one saying all these things saying that the normal thing would be to shower more often and stuff. At the same like, yeah, the normal thing would be to shower more often, go to the clinic more often and stuff. At the same time, I understand the freedom, you know? I understand that if he's not really bothering anybody apart from me because I know him deeply, then what's the matter?

So I'm a bit confused myself. Chris, how about you? How do you think this is going to go? I got a good idea i think it i i'm gonna be told to conform and i feel like the little man you know the bottom of the pile just gonna i don't want to i don't want what i'm not doing any harm do you feel like you're kind of raging against the machine at this point maybe maybe it's a good thing that it gets turned against me because that just gives my cause more oomph. I'll be like the sort of the pussy riot in the sort of hygiene world.

OK. I really regret saying that. Yeah, yeah. Probably not a great comparison to draw. But what's done is done. Oh, no. Judge Thorne is reentering the courtroom. Jesse, to catch you up on what was happening while you were rendering your verdict, Chris compared himself to agitprop punk band and political prisoners Pussy Riot.

So this is, he feels very strongly about the stance that he's taking. I'm happy to hear. I'm happy to hear that you're making a fight against the dictatorial regime in Holland and on behalf of social justice for all people. Judge Thorne, what is the verdict? Justice for all people. Judge Thorne, what is the verdict? Well, Christopher, I have to say that as a somewhat eccentric dresser myself, I appreciate the passion and consideration that you brought to your personal presentation. However, ultimately, I must rule against you. However, ultimately, I must rule against you.

I understand that as an artist, and particularly as a young artist, you have made the choice in your life to spend time getting to know yourself. That's a natural and valuable thing for all people, but it's particularly valuable for people whose job it is to express themselves in a very deep way. That having been said, you are 25, you are an adult, and you are responsible not just to yourself, but also to others. I am not going to require you to participate in what I would describe as a normal amount of washing.

Instead, I will require you to participate in what I would describe as a bare minimum first world 21st century amount of washing. That is the following. I would ask you to shower at least once per week. That's not an average. I do not wish seven days to pass with you not having showered. I want you to change and wash the clothes that touch your stinky parts after each wearing. Your stinky parts, if I may be specific, are your underarms, your feet, and your special business.

That means socks, underwear, and shirts, particularly shirts worn without an undergarment. Is that clear? That's clear. Clothes that don't touch your stinky parts should be washed when there is any noticeable odor or soil. I'll tell you the reason for this. Yes, sir. Oil will degenerate your clothing, and it sounds like it does. And your clothes need to be washed in order to be maintained. It is part of the basic maintenance of your wardrobe that you wash the to wear them and so that you don't have to go out and buy new clothes and be a consumptive anti-pussy riot

so and so. I will also compel you to either have your hair cut professionally Oh, what? or to wear a hairstyle that can be reasonably maintained by you and Andrea.

That hairstyle basically is just a buzz cut. There's basically no other hairstyle that you will be able to maintain yourself with help from Andrea unless Andrea's job is as a hairdresser other than a buzz cut. So your choices are either to get your hair professionally managed or to wear a hairstyle that you can manage. I do not think that I can't see it is an appropriate excuse for a haircut because everyone else that's not you can. And I think that speaks to your artist self-centeredness, which again is a valuable thing, but it's also something that you have to be careful of. And finally, I compel you to find a close friend and appoint that friend as your odor monitor. This should be someone that you see regularly, and you should check in with them at least once a week around your personal hygiene habits. This has to be someone who will be brutally honest with you,

as honest as I am being with you right now. And they have to check in. Are you gross? Ideally, it would be Bill Maher. Okay, tells it like it is. Again, very funny to Americans. I mean, I say check in on John McCain in the Straight Talk Express. Sure, yeah.

He travels through Holland a lot, doesn't he? Ultimately, Christopher, I am very loathe to ask someone for whom expression is their business to change the way they dress themselves and change the way they present themselves physically. I think that's a very important thing. And I respect you. I respect your decisions very much. I also think that you're right that the hygiene industry has changed our expectations around hygiene and not always for the better. They've transformed the washing that we need to do for our health into a luxury that can be bought and consumed and ultimately into a thing that can lead to shame. I mean, I think, for example, you know, no one

even knew what shampoo was before 75 or 100 years ago. However, I also think that it's important to recognize that you have to respect yourself, respect your romantic partner, and respect the other people in the world. And part of that is thinking about the way your choices affect others. I think that you may be myopic in the bare minimums of societal conventions. And, you know, if you want to wear seven brooches to express yourself, go ahead. Wear the brooches. I have no beef with that. I just don't want you to be the stinky guy in the elevator. That's my ruling. You're welcome. Judge Thorne has spoken. Return to your marijuana smokings

and your prostitution hirings. Tulip gathering. Tulip gathering. That's what they call prostitute gathering. Andrea, Chris, how do you guys feel about the ruling today? Yeah, I think it seems very, very fair. I just, also, it made me realize how much I was also getting convinced by Christopher

in the way that I started to think, why does someone need to shower once a week or why does someone need to change their clothes for their partner or or whatever you know so yeah that's my opinion yeah yeah i think it's it's it's it's an eye-opener i think i think it's a good idea for the odor monitor odor monitor is a good thing someone who who really who will really say uh you know straight into face, yes, you smell like a rhino or something. You know, that's fine. So, yeah, I'm happy, I guess. Christopher, Andrea, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you very much.

Cheers. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft.

And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs, they're made in, made in. The Rohan duck, made in, made in. Riders of Rohan, duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop? You got it. Made in, made in. Made in has been supplying top chefs and restaurants with high-end cookware for years. They make the stuff that chefs need. Their carbon steel cookware is the best of cast iron, the best of stainless clad. It gets super hot. It's rugged enough for grills or an open flame.

One of the most useful pans you can own. And like we said, good enough for real professional chefs, the best professional chefs. Oh, so I have to go all the way down to the restaurant district in restaurant town? Just buy it online. This is professional grade cookware that is available online directly to you, the consumer, at a very reasonable price. Yeah. If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in, made in. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit madeincookware.com.

That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks.

Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations, and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world, and you get to hear the sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird, hyper-academic chore. It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for

our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney

is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm.

Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-T-C-O-O. Ugh! We are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Judge Thornton, now that we're in your quarters, would you like to have a snack and clear the docket? I would. What kind of snacks have you brought?

Well, I have some hard cheese and a knuckle sandwich. I'll take the cheese. Okay. Can I punch you later? I'd rather you didn't. All right. Let's clear the docket, shall we? Let's. Aaron writes, My wife Sarah and I are shamefully late to the party that is the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

We've got over 100 unlistened to episodes and have devoted ourselves to catching up. I've listened in chronological order. Sarah listens in reverse chronological order. I say she's robbing herself of enjoyment of context by doing this, particularly if there are ever any references to previous cases. This also robs us of any opportunity to discuss the episodes. How should we listen to back episodes?

Oh, this one is easy. Yeah. This is a very easy one for me. Oh, okay. Great, great, great. No problem here. First of all, I would say always listen first to the newest episode. So if there is a current episode, listen to that first.

Yeah. Reason being, you want to know if there's something timely happening, you want to enjoy it in a timely fashion. Sure, because I know you guys on this show, I mean, you do consider it a news program first and foremost. Absolutely. Well, you know, since we added Stone Phillips. Sure.

I should be clear, Stone Phillips is not an on-air we added Stone Phillips. Sure. I should be clear. Stone Phillips is not an on-air presence on the program. Yeah. And when I say added, I mean we've added him as to our inspiration board. Right. We have an inspiration board here at the office. Is he getting paid for that? Oh, no, absolutely not.

Oh, these are just magazines. These are like Tiger Beat photos of Stone Phillips. Yeah, from Tiger Beat for newsreaders. Yeah. For the little news fan. So first and foremost, your priority should be the current episode of the program. You know, you don't want to miss tour dates. You don't want to miss an announcement.

You know, you might have missed, if you were just living in the back episodes, you might have missed that Judge Hodgman's new special, Ragnarok, is on Netflix right now. That's an important piece of information. That's the kind of important stuff you can miss out on. So, number one, always listen to the current episode first. Second of all- Also, listen to current episodes, any episodes that have to do with current debates. Oh, okay.

Sure. And if there's anything about red or black currents, or any any hard candies, any currant-flavored hard candies. Listen to those first. The currant episodes, the currant episodes, then the back episodes. And if there's any episodes about, of course, the great rivalry between Edison and Westinghouse about alternating currant or direct currant, I'd recommend listening to those first. So current episodes. Right. Current episodes.

Right. Current episodes. Right. Back episodes. And when you listen to the back episodes, more to the point of this question, when you listen to the back episodes, if it is your intention to listen to the entire back catalog,

which someone actually just emailed me the other day and said they were just about to finish all 283 episodes of Jordan, Jesse, Go. Impressive. I would like you to start from the beginning. The reason is that as with any entertainment property, especially a comic one, there is a sort of accumulation of information and knowledge that will enrich your enjoyment. And you will miss out on that if you listen in reverse chronological order.

And instead what you will get when you listen in reverse chronological order is a steady downward slide. You want to start low and get high. You see what I'm saying? So I say listen to the current one first because you don't want to miss out on timely things. And then if you're the kind of completist

who wants to have heard every episode, start with episode one and keep on moving and you'll get the incredible feeling of what it's like to see something

become what it is before your very ears. Sounds like that's solid advice. Shall we move on? It's solid advice as long as you see with your ears. Great.

Nicole writes, my boyfriend John feels that dirty dishes are best placed on the clean counter above the dishwasher. I think dirty dishes should go in the sink until they're ready to be placed into the dishwasher or washed by hand. The obvious answer would be to put the dish directly into the dishwasher.

However, most of the time the dishwasher is already filled with either dirty dishes or clean dishes. I do about 90% of the chores, and John's only mandatory task is the dishes. So I say, dishes in the sink, not the counter, until they're washed. And wash them regularly. Who's right in this argument? I'm going to give you a nuanced answer on this one. And this is, I'm going to give you a nuanced answer on this one. First of all, I'm going to ask whether you have a single chamber or a bicameral sink.

Shall I answer for them? Yes. Single chamber. Single chamber sink. They live in an airport bathroom. Wait, there's only one sink in this airport bathroom? Well, they've roped... Sounds like a hygiene disaster. They've roped one off.

Oh, okay. Yeah. So they have a Tom Hanks in the terminal... Right. ...slash Edward Snowden type situation. Exactly, yeah. It's a squatter's rights thing. They have rights to one of the sinks.

In either case, they are living in an airport. Mm-hmm. They are making their money by returning luggage carts. They are in a lesser Spielberg movie. Okay. That movie was a disappointment, wasn't it? Yeah. Because you'd think with Tom Hanks, Catherine Zeta-Jones, and that wonderful premise, he would be a charmer.

I think Shalhoub's in there, too. You got a Shalhoub. And there's nothing better than Shalhoub. Oh, yeah. And he'd just come off of Catch Me If You Can, which is a delight. This is a really fun movie. Anyway. I'm going to say, with two chambers of the sink, no doubt about it, always goes in the sink.

Okay? Because you have a dirty side and a clean side. You have a side for washing and a side for rinsing. Okay? Seems fair. So my first recommendation is, come on, it's 2013, get a two-part sink.

However, I understand not everyone can afford that. Not everyone's made out of money like I am. Sure. I got this podcast empire money. Yeah. You're buying sinks up the wazoo. Yeah, I got I am. Sure. I got this podcast empire money. Yeah. You're buying sinks up the wazoo. Yeah, I got wisdom money.

Sure. I got all this money that this wisdom I'm just buying brings me. From getting your wisdom teeth pulled and leaving them for the tooth fairy. Yeah. So that's number one. Number two, in a one sink situation, it's a little less clear. I'm going to say that I would like you to put them in the sink for this reason. I understand the impulse to put them beside the sink.

And this was what we did in my own home as a child. However, my concern is, of course, vermin. I'm speaking not only of rodents, but also of insects. Both of them are attracted to food and food detritus.

A lizard got in my house the other day. Exactly. And this is the kind of things we should be concerned about. And if there's one thing that lizards love, it's a half-eaten club sandwich.

Sure. So if he wants... I don't want to be part of any club that would have lizard as a member. If he wants... If he's insistent on stacking them next to the sink, I would say if he wants to if he wants, if he's insistent on stacking them next to the sink, I would say if he wants to rinse them first, then he can stack them next to the sink neatly.

However, that having been said, in a 90-10 situation, the person doing 90% of the work gets to make the call. It's obviously her house and he's just living in it. He's just skating across the top of this house. If he's only responsible for doing the dishes, she makes the call. You know what I mean? That's just basic equity. This is her home. He's lucky to have a live-in maid and he should do whatever she says under any circumstances.

Yeah. And I bet she's giving it up regularly too. I bet she is. Yeah. There's bet she's giving it up regularly, too. I bet she is. Yeah. There's no way to know that for sure, but... I mean, but you see, I mean, I can tell from the tone of the letter.

Right. That she's giving it up. From the tone, it seems clear. It's irregular. It seems clear. Yeah. Well, Jesse, it looks like the docket's cleared.

Well, there's only one way for you, the listener, to spend more time with me and Jordan Morris. That's to listen to our hit comedy podcast, Jordan Jesse Go, which is a lot like this. I would say

Primary Difference, Jordan Jesse Go's a lot more vulgar. Primary Similarity, both programs are very judgmental. So there you go. You get all the judgment without all this you know. Structure.

Yeah, exactly. Reason for existing. I was going to say teetotaling. Yeah, right. Celebrity. Yeah, if this program feels too pointed, if you're like, eh, get out of this. Yeah.

Listen to ours. Yeah. I think people, honestly, I think Judge John Hodgman fans who are not offended by profanity, of which there is a fair amount on Jordan Jessica, would really enjoy our program. It's a warm-hearted look at life from the perspective of two men who are unafraid to talk about their gentleman parts. Sure. So if you've been listening to this show, you think these guys are great. They're witty. I wonder what's going on with their junk. Jordan, Jesse, go.

That's the way to go. Thank you so much to Judge John Hodren for allowing us to fill in while he is in the internetless hills of the Northeast. I can only assume we'll be filling in on The Daily Show any day now. Yeah, absolutely. You know, John Oliver opened up a slot for us. Oh, really? Yeah. That was nice of him. He also wants us to host The Bugle. Can we be in Baby Mama 2?

You bet we can. Oh, awesome. We're going to be doing celebrity cameos across a wide variety of media. I can't wait to meet Dax Shepard. Seriously, if they finally get that Bored to Death movie made... We're going to be playing Hodgman's part? Absolutely. Tag team style.

That's great. They're going to use prosthetics. Oh, cool. This is like Todd Solon's palindromes. You got it. Okay. All of that. We really thank you a lot for listening to the program.

If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho. MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. No case too big, too small, too stupid, too brilliant, too important. Just send it in. You know, Judge Hodgman can make that call. He reads every submission. You can send in a weird joke submission. Not that you should, but you could. He'll read it. Do it. You know what I mean? He's a thorough man. Send all that stuff in at MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho. Check out Jordan and Jesse. Go free in your favorite podcatcher or online at MaximumFun.org.

Thanks for taking the time. We will see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. The Judge John Hodgman Podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at GoSuperEgo.com. You can find John Hodgman online at AreasOfMyExpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts

about the show, join the conversation on our forum at Forum.MaximumFun.org and our Facebook group at Facebook.com slash Judge John Hodgmanman we'll see you online and next time right here on the judge john hodgman podcast maximumfund.org comedy and culture artist owned listener supported