Judge John Hodgman - Online Beefs With Taylor Lorenz

Episode Date: September 20, 2023

Where's the beef? ONLINE! Taylor Lorenz joins the Court this week to help clear the docket and talk about ONLINE BEEFS! Taylor is a tech journalist and author of the new book Extremely Online: The Untold Story of Fame, Influence, and Power on the Internet. Judge Hodgman and Guest Bailiff Jean Grae consult Taylor on all things online: talking back within local restaurant reviews, intentional mistakes to drive engagement, meeting your troll IRL, wiki editing, and much more!Judge John Hodgman’s Van Freaks Roadshow has begun! Visit vanfreaksroadshow.com for ticket links, other dates, cities, and more information! And SUBMIT YOUR CASES along the tour route at maximumfun.org/jjho!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm guest bailiff Jean Grey, sitting in for Jesse Thorne. We are in chambers this week to clear the docket. This week's topic, who's right and who's wrong on the internet? The answer is everyone. Everyone get off the internet now, please. But please. Here to judge your online beefs is Judge John Hodgman.

He's still on the internet. Thank you. I know we're using the internet to make the podcast. Thank you very much, Jean. Jean Gray, welcome back to the program. I have not seen you in person or even virtually for some time. My friend, I thank the internet for being there so that I can see your incredible personhood, at least virtually at this moment. Thanks.

We're going to be chatting with you all this episode. But first, now normally on these docket episodes, I don't do an obscure cultural reference like we do on the other episodes because it's not really necessary. But this is a special episode, not just because you're here, Jean, but because we're also joined by a very special expert witness, whose name shall be revealed in a moment. And in honor of this specialness, I will offer this special obscure cultural reference. See, Jean and mystery guest, if you can guess the source of this quote. Okay. Quote, parents have an obligation to let their kids go out in the world in broader and broader circles of independence, but they also have to train them how to be in the world, how to avoid hurting themselves and others if possible.

I trust in your case that guidance was absolutely present, but nostalgia for how it used to be doesn't make that time necessarily better, nor this dude any less of an asshole. End quote. I'll start with you, Jean. Can you guess where this quote is from? It sounds like something I would say because it's reasonable

and it involves critical thinking. Yes. I don't know exactly who it is, but I can say that it's not a lot of people on the internet. Not a lot of people on the internet. I'll write that down. It's definitely no one at Fox

and it's definitely absolutely not Kanye. Okay, fair enough. Yeah. Without commenting, I'm just writing that down. Mystery expert witness, do you have a guess as to the speaker of that quote? I don't, but it also sounds like someone that doesn't spend too much time online. Doesn't sound like someone who spends too much time online. That's a great guess.

Unfortunately, all guesses are wrong. The correct answer was me, John Hodgman, fighting with Reddit user Sail Shonan. Yeah, I'm going to name that person. Sail Shonan, S-A-I-L-S-H-O-N-A-N, all caps, in the comments on a post on the popular Reddit community, Am I the Asshole?, a community to which I am an addict. Now, I would like to ask our expert witness a few questions, so let's introduce her. She is the technology and online culture columnist at the Washington Post, a very famous newspaper, and author of the new book, Extremely Online, The Untold Story of Fame, Influence, and Power on the Internet.

It's Taylor Lorenz. Hello, Taylor. Thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. Of course. So you are an expert in online culture. So I'd just like to ask you a couple of questions right up front before we get into these docket questions. Is fighting with people in the comments section or in reply threads or on the internet in general, are these debates totally fun and worthwhile and a great use of your time all the time? No.

Yes or no? No. No? They're not a great use of one's time? It's like draining blood from your body. It takes a lot out of you. I suggest not doing that. All right, quick follow-up. But it's harmless, right? Expressing an opinion on the internet from your body, it takes a lot out of you. I suggest not doing that.

All right. Quick follow up. But it's harmless, right? Expressing an opinion on the Internet could never, ever come back to haunt you in an unpleasant way later, right? I mean, what could happen? You could only lose your job and career and life, you know. Nothing bad has ever happened to you. I mean, I presume. Yeah. Yeah. I've experienced the worst and the best of it all. But, you know, I like the drama. I appreciate that. And how long have you been covering online culture? Since 2009. Oh, I was just thinking about 2009. That's a long time ago. We only had the iPhone for two years at that point. Yeah, that's I started as a blogger. So I started in that blogger

boom back then. What was the name of your blog? Well, my main blog was just TaylorLorenz.tumblr. I was a Tumblr. That's amazing. Yeah, that's old school for sure. So given that you've been around for a long time on the Internet, let me ask you this. A relatively internet savvy adult of about my age and say with my name should have learned to stop getting into fights on Reddit threads around when? Like 2009, maybe? Yeah. Reddit is the one platform I have to say, even as an internet culture writer, I don't touch it. I've never weighed in there. It's a bad place. Well, the correct answer is I wrote that one month ago. No.

Yes. Yes. I am a avid reader of Am I the Asshole? As I've said on the show before, it is the greatest collection of extremely short stories told by the most unreliable narrators since, well, Yelp. And I have a policy. I have a policy of only lurking. I only read until I don't. And then sometimes I get into it when, as Randall Munroe in the famous XKCD comic number 386 said, someone is wrong on the internet. And that's something I posted.

If you want the full context and see the full story, just search my comment history on Reddit. My username is John Hodgman. I have a very simple username on Reddit. No underscores. Surprise. No numbers. And you don't have to take a look, Jean or Taylor, but listeners, if you want to take a look, I think you'll see I, it's a rare one because I won it. I won this argument. I won it on style. But meanwhile, we asked for you, listeners, your stories of mixing it up online. So Taylor and Jean, will you-

Wait a second. Wait a second., will you? Wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a second. I won the argument. No, you did. Yeah. I think you did.

I'm just saying you didn't ask me anything about my precious online beefs. Oh, please tell me, Jean. I've been fighting in chat rooms since AOL chat, in forums, everywhere. Oh, it was the greatest. Who was your nemesis? Oh, which one? What's the plural of nemesis? Nemesis?

Nemesis. Nemesis. Nemesis. Nemesis. I have many a nemesis. Really? And before Twitter, it was, I think I had just been in like, it was like Friendster and in MySpace. And then Twitter happened.

And like those early days of Twitter, man, I went to town. Yeah. I went to town. Like I came there to rip heads off. It was my job. And it was beautiful. And you won. Of course.

That's not a question. 100% win rate, I presume. I don't start if I'm not going to win. And victory in an online thread fight is absolutely clear. It's not just that everyone loses because they lose their time and their dignity. No, whoever has the most likes wins. Oh, that's true. I only got one upvote on Reddit for my takedown of sales shonan. Boy, that person really got on my nerves. Well, I'll go vote for it. Like, you know, you were right about not stepping foot into Reddit

because it's fun to hang out there, but I'm not opening up a conversation. I didn't come here to farm karma. You make your own choice. Go upvote it, downvote it. You can decide whether or not I'm right or wrong when I say that I won that fight. I think that Sail Shonan just abdicated from the conversation because I was being weird. But meanwhile, we asked you, the listeners, for your stories of mixing it up online. So, Taylor and Jean, will you help me in judging some people?

Yes. Yes, great. So, Jean, take it away. You can read the first one. Okay, I got the first case. Okay. Here's a case from Mike. He uses pronouns he, him, and Mike is in New Brunswick, Canada. Been to New Brunswick many times. Never met Mike. Fredericton, specifically. Yeah. Okay.

Mike says, I bullied a local restaurant on their Facebook page. All of their food photography was stock, blatantly taken from other websites. The address was residential and very far from their purported location. I was very certain they were not a real restaurant. On every post, I'd hop on and say, this place isn't real, or there's no way this restaurant is a real thing, or this is a bewildering scam. But it ended up being a real restaurant. It took me three years of prodding by my friends to go there. It was fine. All right. Mike is an internet bully from New Brunswick, Canada, who only bullied one restaurant. Before we get to judgment on whether Mike should

be doing this kind of thing or not, I did an internet search for this restaurant and found some photos provided by the restaurant to Google Maps. And I don't know, Jean and Taylor, you tell me. I'm going to share my screen. Does this? Stop. It looks like real people to you. Real people having a real good time. Not an incredible scam, right? Is the guy in the back on a date with a chair? I think that looks like a stroller to me. Yeah, I think he brought his invisible infant to the party

while these women in the foreground are enjoying each other. Okay. Is this the only picture? No, there's one other. This, I think, is from the same. This is obviously they commissioned. It does look like a stock photograph. It doesn't look like something that ever really happened.

This is the fakest thing I've ever seen. Yeah, this is pretty bad. Yeah, yeah. And this is another picture that they commissioned. This one just turned out to be kind of a weird piece of art. What? Obviously, these pictures are going to be available on our Instagram page and our show page at MaximumFun.org. The depth of field.

A chilled seafood tower and behind it in soft focus is a woman just staring into the middle distance. Lovingly. In a way that I find to be a little you know the movie Megan? Yeah. A little Megan-y. It feels like Megan is going. Oh yeah, no, there's a little Megan over there and then the other one is very proud of her son, the

lobster. That's right. Is what it feels like. In both pictures the glasses are all completely full. No one's taking a sip. That's right. Is what it feels like. In both pictures, the glasses are all completely full. Yes. No one's taking a sip. That's right. No, you can't drink there. They bring you drinks.

Those breadsticks are probably made of plastic and they are limited. All right. Well, okay. So, but the fact is, it is a real restaurant called Maxwell's, quote, a classic steakhouse with a maritime twist in Fredericton, New Brunswick. And it's very well reviewed and it looks okay. And there are definitely other photos online which are not professional at all, but you can see if you go to their Google Photos page or whatever. But Taylor, let me turn it to you. Was Mike wrong to bully a restaurant?

I generally think that it's fine to bully certain restaurants, like if they're bad chain restaurants that, you know, I don't know. But in this case, I think he was wrong because it looks like a nice place. I feel bad that it's like a family owned, you know, if it's like a night, like he said, it's a residential address. address? Yeah, but I don't think it's a mom and pop restaurant. I think, and by the way, Mike was not the only one in the Facebook comments. I went back to way back to 2018 when they were launching and putting out these stock photographs. And there were many people in New Brunswick going, is this real? This address is wrong. This is nothing is there. These photos look strange. But apparently they developed a new hotel in that area. And then this restaurant is in it. So it's a hotel restaurant. So I don't, you know.

I, you know, I feel like it was fair. I feel like this is something I would do. I would absolutely be like, this is not real. What are we talking about? And also because I don't want people to get murdered. Oh, you mean tricked into going to a fake restaurant? Yeah. You're thinking of the safety of the community. Yes. also because I don't want people to get murdered. Oh, you mean tricked into going to a fake restaurant? Yeah.

You're thinking of the safety of the community. Yes. I am always, I only bully the bullies or for the sake of the community. You know, Mike said that he's a bully, but I think that I don't accept his self-judgment 100% there because- I agree. Yeah. I trust that he was actually operating on good faith. He thought this restaurant was fake. He was genuinely confused. He wasn't trying to gaslight an

existing restaurant by leaving a lot of comments and reviews saying this is fake. Don't go there. It's a front for, you know, I don't know, like mattress firm. Mattress firm isn't real. You ever seen anyone in mattress firm buying mattresses? You're saying that mattress firm is a front for some shady biz? The whole internet thinks mattress firm is a front for some shady business. Does this ring a bell with you, Taylor? I've never heard this before. I haven't, but there's actually a really good series on Morning Brew. I don't know if you guys heard of that. They have this video series where they go to all the random shops in New York that you're like, how is this a business? And they interview them and explain how the place is actually in business. And it's the most weird shops ever. So we have a lot of those. Are the explanations convincing? Do they ever seem like maybe this bodega is not

a bodega or this Jennifer convertibles is actually a front for nefarious business or something? The ones that Morning Brew does, they are all real businesses, and it's very interesting. A lot of them do, like, online businesses, but they have the storefront. But not Mattress Firm. Mattress Firm, they have it, and that's one we need to investigate. Maybe Mike needs to look into it. It's a big thing. I'm not the only one suggesting this.

Mattress Firm, money laundering. And then after that, I was like, well, I've never been in a Mattress Firm, and I never saw anyone go in a Mattress Firm. Well, it's sort of like a serial killer begging to be caught. Right. Because, you know, traditionally, where do you hide your money under your mattress? It's right. There's leaving a trail of breadcrumbs right to their door, right to their mattress. That's right. I feel like he's definitely not a bully because like at the end, he still left a decent review for the restaurant. Yeah.

Yeah. He's like, it was fine. Well, speaking of reviews, as a follow up, if someone writes a mean review of a restaurant on Yelp or Google or whatever, first of all, why? What are you doing? Who cares? You had a bad experience. That's fine. But if someone writes a mean review on Yelp or Google, is it a good idea for the owner to fight back in the comments?

No. Why not? Because the person always edits their comments. So when you go to the review and it's like edit, the response below is bullshit. Really? I don't know if you guys see that on Google. Yeah. I don't want them to do it, but there are a couple of restaurants, I'll see if I can find them in my

phone, that are my favorite of the owner responding to every single person. Getting feisty, right? Yes. Oh, it is. They don't hold back. If someone was negatively reviewing my restaurant, I want to fight back. I'm going to fight back in the comments if people review my book bad. I would want to put my own story out there. No, no, no, no, Taylor. No, don't fight back. Don't, don't. So many. Do you know what's happening on Goodreads right now? Do you understand? Do you understand what happens if you piss off the Goodreads community in any way? They will come for you. They will downvote your book. They're vicious. They're vicious. Some guy signed up for multiple accounts to rate my book one star the second it went on Goodreads before I'd even

finished writing it. Oh, no. And I got an alert and I was like, oh, a Goodreads alert. It's like, this book sucks. I'm still writing it. I'm always amazed when people start other accounts. Yeah, that's incredible, right? We'll talk more about sock puppet accounts a little later in the episode. But let me just say something to the people of Goodreads. I love you. You're all terrific. Actually, you know, I'm on Goodreads. People who are very close to me are on it.

I would say that it's not that they're vicious, but they are a very protective community of readers. And if they feel that they are slighted, there are some that will go too far. So I would argue for you, Taylor, please don't. But if you are GP Cremonini, the owner and proprietor of the Ristorante Riviera in Venice, Italy, please keep it up because this guy is my absolute favorite. Ristorante Riviera is a restaurant in Venice. It's in the Dorso Duro district of Venice, very near the Conad City. And in between the Conad City and the apartment that we did a house swap was very nice.

And in between them, there was this restaurant called Ristorante Riviera. And I was like, maybe I should check this place out. And I went and it had a lot of good reviews, but also had some negative reviews, all of which were responded to by the owner with intense fury. Oh, no. This is from a year ago. This one-star review comes from a user named MC, the initials MC. The review is, one star, this place is a total scam. Response from the owner, have you even come here, MC? I don't think so, because I know by name each one of our guests,

and I spend time with all of them, as in a lot of real reviews you can see. If you were a real human being, you would have talked to me if you had been here, but for sure you have never sat down at our table, and you don't even have a real name. Or maybe you were the one who vandalized our front door a few nights ago, taking advantage of the darkness, not as a hero, but as a real coward. We don't receive liars or cowards, never mind anonymous ones. Have the little day that you deserve, MC, aka Master of Cowards. Yes! There were so many gems in there.

Oh. The darkness. And anytime anyone tells someone to have the day they deserve, they win. But he said the little day you deserve. The little day you deserve. MC, a.k.a. Master of Cowards. He just made that up. Incredible.

One time I saw it was, you know, the earth is dying. So the tides are rising. And Aqua Alta in Venice is higher than ever. That's when the water comes up above the streets. And one time I saw him carry a woman out of his restaurant to get her to dry land or dry pavement while the boyfriend or husband kind of just waded through in some boots that he provided. A gallant man. And yet I would never eat at the store. Scares me too much. So I love him and I love his restaurant,

but I feel that fighting back in this way makes me not want to go to the restaurant. Oh, it makes me want to go. Well, I mean, let's all go then. Yeah, I kind of want to go too. I want to greet him. Because that's an art. What he's doing is an art.

As a fellow writer, I feel like I can appreciate his prose. We are going to take a quick break to hear from this week's partners. We'll be back with more cases to clear from the docket on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy,

that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made-in pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs. They're made-in, made-in. The Rohan duck.

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teaches you while you are actually having a nice time and you get to hear this sound here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. This week, we are clearing the docket and talking about online disputes with Taylor Lorenz, author of the upcoming book, Extremely Online, The Untold Story of Fame, Influence and Power on the Internet. And I am very interested in reading that. Well, I think you have to wait just a minute longer because it is up for pre-order right now.

Right, Taylor? Yes, it comes out October 3rd. Oh, fabulous. October the 3rd. Very exciting. And everyone should go rate it five stars on Goodreads. Give it some good karma. Taylor, before we get back into the docket, tell us about your book.

Yeah, my book is about kind of the first 20 years of the social internet. So from bloggers to Vine to Twitch to TikTok stars, kind of how the content creator industry emerged and how we have this half a trillion dollar influencer industry now and how we all became influencers ourselves a little bit in the way we post. How do you mean? How does it influence the way we post? I'm a podcaster. I'm a 52 year old man. I'm not an influencer. How does it change the way we post. How do you mean? How does it influence the way we post? I'm a podcaster. I'm a 52-year-old man.

I'm not an influencer. How does it change the way we interact with the internet? Yeah, my book sort of talks about the ways that the internet pressures us all to create content and commodify ourselves and post in certain ways. I mean, even just the way that people post on Instagram, for instance, how it went from like pictures of other things in the world to pictures of ourself and full body shots, usually things like that.

So, yeah. Yeah. You know, I find it very strange because when I started using Instagram, it was a refuge for me from the world of what we used to call Twitter, which had transmogrified from a fairly fun place where funny people I knew got together and told jokes with one another to an increasingly difficult place where a lot of bad feelings were being spread around. And it was feeling like a job to be on Twitter and I wasn't getting paid for it. So Instagram was a more fun place and it was a smaller place at the time. And I was just taking pictures of the world and whatever my travels on my book tours or whatever. You can get all my books wherever you can get books. I guess I'm just going to plug that.

But as it grew and they added stories and they added reels and they were absorbing sort of the vernacular of other online platforms that I had no idea how to use, I started getting invited to use different tools that I had no native understanding of and also tools to evaluate how my stuff was being seen and how to monetize it, which was not something that ever crossed my mind.

And it revealed to me that there's this, at the time, sort of incipient but now booming monetary economy where people are supporting themselves doing this. And I just want to know, Taylor, where's my money? I mean, I took like two pictures this week. You can start. You can turn on subscriptions now on Instagram and start probably collecting some paid subscribers there. I don't know. I'd be nervous to see that data, actually. It might make me feel bad. When did this flip? What was the beginning of the monetized influencer as opposed to fun user world?

Yeah, I would say there was a real turning point in the mid-2010s. This book is really about sort of the shift in our media environment, too, like how we consume news and information. And a lot more people, especially around the 2016 election, started to consume news more through non-traditional channels, YouTube, Instagram, newsletters, podcasts. That was all positive for our society. Yeah, I mean, yeah, my book gets into the downsides as well.

There are many. But that's when a lot of money started to really pour into the space. And then the past three years, obviously, with COVID, that just pushed everyone online further. And now, yeah, you can make millions as a TikTok influencer, and many do. And we'll talk a little bit more about how that compares to what's happening in what we call legacy media of film and television

and other filmed entertainment that is not being made right now because as we speak, we are still a member of both of the WGA and SAG-AFTRA. And you're a member of SAG-AFTRA too, Jean, right? Yes, I am.

So we are on strike, hoping for a fair deal from major corporations, but I'm wondering if maybe they don't need us anymore. Well, we'll talk more about that fun story later. But we have a dispute with an influencer next. Jean, you want to read the letter from Krista? I do. And I'm so glad that this is an item because I'm like, great. It answered a question I really needed answering. So thank you, Krista. All right. Krista says, a major coffee influencer on TikTok used an oat milk from Calafia Farms in one of his videos.

But he pronounced Calafia incorrectly. Califia. I commented with the correct pronunciation. He said I was actually wrong and that someone from the company told him to say Califia. It was Califia Jones. No. Then I found a commercial on YouTube where they clearly said it my way, but he doubled down and still said I was wrong. I ended up dropping it because it was making me feel very stressed and uncomfortable.

I still have no idea why I was so invested in being correct. Oh, I do. I do. Because one's right and one is wrong? No. Things that people pronounce wrong stayed with me for decades, and I think about them often. Like what? Okay. What? I didn't mean to put you on the spot, but I'll tell you one of my favorite ones. No, no. No, I got them in there. Okay, bring it out then.

I can pull them out at any time. I was about maybe like 19 and I was hanging out with a friend and we were about to go to a club and she was like, hold on, I'm just going to take a quick horse bath. And I was like, a what? Oh, no. Because I'm that person. I'm not going to tell you. I'm not going to tell you. And she was like, before we go to the club, just a little quick, I'm going to wash up a horse bath. And I was like, are you saying horse? Are you saying you're taking a horse like in a trough bath? She was like, yeah. And I was like, that's like a horse bath. And I was like, how would, in your mind, how, what, is the horse doing that?

Is the horse? I think she meant she was going to go into a stall and be hosed down by a stable keeper. Was it supposed to be me? Should I have hosed her down in the bathroom? Maybe that was the invitation. The horse, just a little washcloth, maybe squatting in the tub. Just getting the bits that needed to be gotten. But what she meant was something else.

The same person also said it was, again, like in very quick passing, was that it was very cold because of the windshield factor. Oh, no. Oh, no. The windshield factor. It makes sense when you think about it. No, it doesn't. But before we get into Califia versus Califia, I just want to start with the first four words of this letter. A major coffee influencer.

Look, I want everyone to get. That's the thing. I want everyone to follow their passions and be rewarded for it. But what I find fascinating, Taylor, is that like there was a time when we would write stories. But now there is a time where this guy makes a mocha latte and films it and that's what people want to watch, probably more than a lot of stories. What's happening with the influencer economy

vis-a-vis entertainment? I think people just prefer their content kind of spoon-fed to them in short, engaging videos. I'm also trying to think which coffee influencer. I'm also thinking, because which coffee influencer. I'm also thinking because I follow a couple of them. And also when you do that, like one, you know, you're going to be like in the comments with people like of the coffee community. So you can like talk the things that maybe other people aren't willing to talk about with you. And it's like and you learn about new products and new gadgets. And then you get to also be a coffee snob

and say and argue with coffee people in there. But I want to know who it is. And I'm going to go back and watch a bunch of TikToks today to see if I can figure it out. I'll tell you the answer because I'm not afraid to name this person. But before I name him, let's play the audio. Maybe you'll recognize him from the audio. I'm using oat milk.

My choice of oat milk is Califia for ice drinks. And if you like Oatly, then stay away from me. Do you recognize that voice? I'm using Califia, but if you like Oatly, stay away from me. No, but he's very confident in the Califio pronunciation. He didn't even. That was just a short bit because, you know, I'm taking Taylor's advice, right? We have to give people stuff in short bits. We're only giving them seconds of audio here. It's the short bit of a 56 second video about how to make a caramel macchiato by Dan, a.k.a. Soft Porn, P-O-U-R-N. Does that ring

a bell to either of you? Taylor, you're indicating maybe. Well, I know Cool Man Coffee, Dan, a.k.a. Soft Porn, P-O-U-R-N. Does that ring a bell to either of you? Taylor, you're indicating maybe? Well, I know Cool Man Coffee Dan, but I think that's a different... Yeah, this person's... Too many Dans in the coffee game. This person's handle is Soft Porn, P-O-U-R-N, as in pour over coffee. That's clever. I love that.

That's pretty good. That's clever. But... That's a clever name. Let's hear how an actual commercial for this company's almond milk in this case sounds when the actor is pouring some into a cereal bowl for Cookie Monster. It's a crossover. No, it's not your usual, but cereal is tasty with Calafia almond milk.

That was questionable. Yeah. That was very questionable. It was on the bubble a little bit there. That was very questionable. It was on the bubble a little bit there. That was questionable. Jennifer Marmer, can you go to the end of that ad where the company logo is shown and they sing the name? Calafia. Calafia.

Soft porn put the emphasis on the wrong syllable and he should own up to it. It would seem so. Yeah. It's pretty cut and dry. So let me unpack this for a second. Taylor, what percentage possibility is there that through this fake letter from Krista, I have been tricked by this alt milk company into buzz marketing their products for free? This podcast has become an ad. How many times have we said Calafia so far. It's true. I think Krista's a brand marketer at Calafia. Do you think that that's possible? I mean, honestly, in your gut, from what you know, how are these companies getting creative and getting the word out?

They're very creative in getting the word out. I think a lot of companies are very creative, but I don't know. I don't know if Calafia would stoop to these lengths. I'd have to look into Krista a little bit more. But I don't want to erase Krista. She's a real human being, I think. I believe in you, Krista,

especially since Dan erased her in the comments in response because Krista said, the milk is pronounced like California, but replace Fornia with Fia. And Dan says, I actually spoke with one of their reps a while back since they sent me a bunch during the summer

and they walked me through the pronunciation. What's happening here? I don't know know that seemed that that's a lot that's a lot to be like someone also how long is the walking through of that is it half an hour i don't know what what are you saying i don't know what are you saying just send me the thing with and highlight in caps the syllable to pronounce. That's the walkthrough. Or what if Dan, what if the other coffee guy, the other Dan hired, this is an elaborate scheme. This is a nemesis play. The internet is for conspiracy theories.

I'm going to send Dan, I'm going to send him a bunch of Calafia products. And then I'm going to tell him to say it the wrong way. You're saying Dan got conned. I'm saying that Dan conned Dan. Well, one thing that people do all the time for engagement is say things the wrong way, because then you know people are going to comment. That's also true. And that boosts your views. And people do things the wrong way, too, all the time, because it it boosts your views because everyone wants to correct you.

That's why they say you should misspell something too sometimes. Really? Or eating stuff and people are like, how could you do that? Well, that's interesting because do you remember how soft porn Dan said, I like Califia. If you like Oatly, get away from me.

People in the comments were mad about that. And someone, Dolores said, honest question, do you not like Oatly? And Dan responded saying, I just have my preferences. I don't actually care what people like. I just wanted to stir the pot a little. I love discourse. Oh, so this guy is 100% trolling.

Oh, we got you, Dan. That's my feeling. Anytime a man says, I love discourse in a comment thread, you know that there's a problem. Stay away. That's 100% trolling. I was going to ask you, Taylor, how much does annoyance play a role in getting likes and clicks? I think a lot. Well, I mean, annoying your audience, you mean? Yeah. Or being a little bit gaslighty like Dan was being. I think it helps a lot because you have to get people talking in the comments to get your videos boosted.

Right. So people do a lot of creepy things, too, with fishing wire where they'll like have something, you know, fall off the back of their shelf behind them as if there's a ghost, you know, to make people think, wait, what happened? One guy, he was selling these like bins that go on your ceiling. And there was a rat that went by in one of his videos. And everyone was commenting about the rat. And so then he started putting a rat in all of his videos in the background. And people are going to be like, oh, so we're not going to talk about the rat. Exactly. We're not going to discuss that.

And I remember, was it two christmases ago and i'm who was it who was sending out um what designer was designer house was sending out all the christmas ornaments and when everyone opened them they would like it was chanel and they would immediately be like whoop and and break them yes that became such a thing. And I was like, this is wild. Oh, yeah. It was like one person did it on accident. And then everyone was like, oh, that got so much engagement. Yeah. We're all going to break our gift packages now. Everyone, everyone broke them. And the people in in the comments, it worked every single time. I was like, this is fascinating. Well, I'm recording this here in the studios of WERUFM in Orland, Maine, with our Maine-based mixer and producer, Joel Mann. Hi, Joel.

Hello, Judge. Do you have a rat around here that I can have run behind me? I could probably go down in the basement and find one, yeah. I've never been in the basement of the radio station. You don't. I've got to have something go wrong. Do you have a gift package? Do you have any swag that I can smash, like a W-E-R-U mug? No. Oh, okay.

Hey, Joel, what's the best route to get to Banger, Maine today? Well, you either go up 15 or 46. I'm saying it wrong. What's the best route to get to Banger, Maine? Banger? No, I'm sorry. Where's that? Banger. It's called Banger, Maine. Banger? No, I'm sorry. Where's that? Banger.

It's called Banger, Maine. Bangor? No, Banger. Banger. Someone from the company told me how to say it, Joel. Which company was that? Janet Miles, the governor of Maine. Miles?

Yeah, Janet Miles, the governor of Maine, called me to say it. It's actually pronounced Banger. Is this an alternative reality? All right. I'll see you in the comments, Joel. Thanks. I think it's Janet Mills and it's called Bangor. I have just now I'm gaming the algorithm.

I've got it now. I'm getting engagement, right, Taylor? Am I doing it right? You're doing it. You nailed it. Thank you. That was fabulous because Joel responded exactly how someone would respond in the comments, especially the, is this an alternative reality?

That was great. Good stage play, you guys. Well, we did it right. But Dan, you absolutely did it absolutely wrong. Krista, you are a real human being. I am sorry that Dan, and not only did, I don't think it was an honest mistake. I think Dan was doing it on purpose. And that's, I think that's the truth.

That is the reality. Not an alternative. The only reality in the court of Judge John Odgman. All right. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, challenging your online troll to a real life duel. I want to do that. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney,

is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because yes, listening is mandatory. no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky.

Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go,

try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Gene, we're taking a break from clearing the docket. Somehow I backed my way into giving a lot of free advertising on this episode to Califica and Maxwell's in New Brunswick. Mattress Firm.

Mattress Firm got a big bump. They get that Judge John Hodgman bump. Obviously, we're very, very happy to talk about Taylor's new book. But you, an artist of unparalleled talents in every media. Yeah. You must have something going on. You know what? That you'd like the people to know about. I know you're doing art. You know what? Yeah, I make art.

I'll have some larger pieces. I've been working with a lot of threading of canvases now. So if you're into, I guess, like sort of, maybe the smallest ones are like 16 by 20, but I have some 36 by 48s coming. So if you're interested in purchasing a piece for your home or getting a commission, you can go check out my Instagram, which is at Jean and Graciel, and see if you see anything you like.

I've always got maybe like two to four new pieces a month, and then there are some months I might take off. But by the time this is out, there'll be something up there, and think about buying one. These are beautiful visual art that you hang on the wall. Yeah. Woven of thread with texture and they're just beautiful. Thank you.

So everyone should go over there to at Jeannie Grigio, J-E-A-N-N-I-E-G-R-I-G-I-O, like Pino Grigio, but Jeannie Grigio. And check out Jeanne's world, which encompasses all worlds. It is everything. It is the Alpha and the Omega. The world of Gene Gray is one in which you would like to be in orbit for the rest of your life. It is.

I have never ceased enjoying and learning from just being in the reflected light of your world. I'm your moon, Gene. Meanwhile, you know me. I'm Judge John Hodgman. This is the podcast. Jesse Thorne is awake this week, but we are reuniting shortly together on the road. It's our biggest tour in years, and we're thrilled to greet you and meet you and judge you all across the Midwest and the Southeast and the Northeast, starting in Lexington, Kentucky. Never

been. Chicago, Illinois. I have been. Madison, Wisconsin. Been there. St. Paul, Minnesota. Been there. Austin, Texas. Been there. Love all those places I've been to. Atlanta, Durham, Charlottesville. Never been to Charlottesville. Can't wait to go. Washington, D.C., Portland, Maine, Boston, Massachusetts, and Brooklyn, New York. VanFreaksRoadShow.com, of course, is where you get all the tickets and details. It's also where you can submit your disputes for these cases, and I and Jesse will judge you personally on stage if we choose your case to be heard. VanFreaksRoadShow.com. Just click the link.

Let us know what your beef is with whoever it is in your life, and let us know where you are. There's a long tour. Honestly, it's a long tour, and I cannot wait. It's going to be so great. It's been so long since I've been out on the road for a little bit and we're playing some of my very, very favorite cities and very, very favorite venues in those cities. And we're going to new places, which is always profoundly exciting. So please come and see us. It's better when you're there. VanFreaksRoadShow.com. Let's get back to the docket.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm guest bailiff Jean Grey, and we are talking about online beefs with Taylor Lorenz. We got another case, and I don't know why, but I kind of just want to use his voice right now. All right. That's allowed. I'll allow it. I think it's the way it starts. This letter comes from Kevin in California.

It's Kevin. I'm writing to you from California. This is great. Hey, I had a guy harassing me on Twitter. Through his other posts, I learned he lived north of Hollywood. I live south of Hollywood. I was planning a day in Hollywood, which for me typically includes a drink in the bar and Musso and Frank. So I told my troll we should meet to talk things out in person.

He talked big and made all kinds of threats about what he'd do to me when he saw me and then failed to show up. Interestingly, a few strangers who had seen our Twitter exchange were at a booth in the bar waiting to back me up if the guy actually showed. Now, I'm not a fan of violence, but I confess part of me was kind of hoping for a bar and brawl in the same bar where Wyatt Earp used to drink. But the troll didn't show. And once he was exposed as a coward in real life, he backed off and deleted his account shortly thereafter. Wow. Kevin out. Wow. So this is not first first of all that was incredible acting kevin from california as channeled by jean gray now this

is we are an independent podcast we are not a struck company so that incredible acting is perfectly allowable under the saga after strike guidelines it was also it's not compensated sorry just no you know what i'll know what? I will compensate you. A drink at Musso and Frank. What do you say in Hollywood? Hey, Musso and Frank. I love to drink there. It's the same bar where Wyatt Earp used to drink.

Just found that out. Taylor, you know Musso and Frank in Hollywood, right? Yeah. Yeah. It used to be Musso, Frank, and Jimmy's. But, you know. I didn't know about that. I didn't know about Wyatt Earp.

Taylor, when you go into Musso and Frank, that famous old school steakhouse and martini house, do you think to yourself, this feels like a real Wyatt Earp kind of place? No. I had no idea. There's a lot of history, a lot of history there. I guess Wyatt Earp came to Hollywood in the 20s and died there or something. You know what this story reminds me of? Do you guys remember the Meet Me in Temecula?

No, I don't. Oh, my God, John. This was like one of the great moments in Twitter history. These guys were fighting about the NBA, about an NBA game. Oh, yeah. And they go back and forth. And then the guy's like, meet me in Temecula. And the guy drives an hour and a half to fight this other guy from Twitter because they're

arguing about like whether Kobe Bryant was good or something. Right. And he drove to Temecula and he like was posting throughout the whole time. And same thing. The other guy didn't show. The other guy didn't show. Wow. So meet me in Temecula showed.

Yeah. And the other guy didn't. Kevin from California showed up and his troll didn't. Let me ask you this, Taylor. Do you think that this is a smart plan to call out your trolls online to meet you in real life? To literally feed or at least share a cocktail with your troll? No, I don't want to know. I don't want to ever encounter a hater in the wild.

It seems extremely dangerous to me. Yeah, 100%. I have made this kind of invitation. You have? Oh, so many times. So many times. Successfully? Um, no.

Nobody, it didn't happen. But, I mean, I also tried to fight Flavor Flav. No. In the parking lot of a festival because I was trying to get my meal ticket done. And he was just like, he was, I don't know, I was very hungry. And he just was like cutting in front of me in line. And then I yelled, like, meet me in the parking lot at three o'clock.

But everything was the parking lot because it was a music festival. He didn't show up is what you're saying? He didn't show up. But I mean, we were already there. Maybe he didn't know what time it is. Maybe he had no way of telling time. You know? That is a very good joke.

Thank you, Jean. I think we can all go home now. No, no, we have more. I think that was it. Okay. But no, I have tried this, but I've also had people like threatened when I didn't want to be threatened at all and just be like, I'm going to be there. I'm going to be at the show. That's scary.

Do people have resources now when you're being trolled or stalked online that they didn't have before? Is there any recourse? No. And actually, I just wrote about a recent Supreme Court case that decided online stalking is basically totally fine as long as the person means well. They're not doing it maliciously. Boy, I didn't see that coming from the Supreme Court. Wow. Yeah, they've been on such a roll. Wow, what a zig.

Yeah, that's always fun trying to report people and they're like, you know, there's nothing you can do. You can block. It's wild to be on the side of deciding that you don't want people to be able to protect themselves. That's just such a wild decision to make. Yeah. Because you're going through some personal issues. Well, Elon loves to block journalists, so he's not going to take that away anytime soon. Do you have any personal experience with that? With Elon?

Yes. He was just tweeting at me yesterday. He called me like he was mad that I was sharing news about Twitter on threads. I saw that. And he said it. I was giving stalker ex-girlfriend vibes or something. He banned me. Yeah, he banned me in December and then he was forced to let me back on. I felt vindicated. Who forced him to let you back on? Well, he banned me under this rule that ended up being illegal in the UK, which is that I was promoting my Instagram too much.

That was like the rule that, do you remember he made that rule in December that you couldn't promote other platforms? It's a little hard for me to keep track of the rules that he's making up. Yeah. Okay. Well, that rule ended up being rescinded and I got my account back for now. I'm kind of done with Twitter. I'm more into Instagram and TikTok now. I wish someone with some vision would come and do something else. And I think even when TikTok, we were afraid that TikTok was going to go, they were like, how about lemonade? And I was like, this is not going to work. Yeah. I'm on Instagram. I still like, I know it's, everyone hates on Instagram, but it's my favorite. I would say it's where I spend most of my

social media time, I guess. I like seeing my friends. And there's a very high barrier to posting. I can't write, I can't write a caption with my thumbs. I can seeing my friends. And there's a very high barrier to posting. I can't write a caption with my thumbs. I can't touch the screen properly anymore. Something's going away. I'm losing electroconductivity in my fingers somehow. So it's like I have to push the buttons five times. The phone won't recognize. The phone doesn't recognize that I'm human. No. No. Okay, but wait. The Apple keyboard has been very broken lately.

Oh, really? I made a TikTok about this, and it ended up spreading. But they did But wait, the Apple keyboard has been very broken lately. I made a TikTok about this and it ended up spreading, but they did an update to the Apple keyboard. And so it's been very broken. So it might just be that. Interesting. That's not been my experience with Apple products at all. And they're perfect as far as I'm concerned. Let's move on. Believe we have a letter. I believe we have a letter. Look, I only use Apple products and I love them. That is the honest truth. And I don't, all my sponsored content days are over by a decade. So I just don't want to talk about it anymore. Let's move on. Jean, we have a letter from Llama from Get Your Pets. Okay. Llama writes in from, I mean, I'm assuming it's Reading, England. No, it's Reading. It's Reading, England. No, it's Reading.

It's Reading, England. Is it? Yeah. Is it really? I really want to get engagement on this one. So it's definitely Reading, England. Llama writes in from Redin, England. Wikipedia editors, oh, this is of my heart, have stopped me and several other people from adding the adjective tender to a certain Wikipedia page for almost 15 years. Right. So Lama has actually been banned. We're going to hear about it for using the adjective tender while editing a certain Wikipedia page. But I'll let Lama tell the story because Lama is also a Twitch streamer, speaking of online, and told this story in some detail last year. The Wikipedia page in question is the page for the UK band The Streets. Oh.

Which is one of those bands like the Mountain Goats where they have one person. That person is Mike Skinner. Oi, and he says oi a lot. Yeah, and Lama made an edit regarding when Mike Skinner learned to play keyboards. And this is what happened. Let's listen to the clip. learned to play keyboards and this is what happened let's listen to the clip i've been having a beef with this page for about 15 years i guess maybe maybe it's only 10 years so there used to be a section on here they moved it to the mike skinner page

where they didn't want me to put the word tender in there. The sentence was, Mike Skinner has been playing keyboards since the age of five or something like that. And for some reason, they don't like you to write the tender age of five. All of this is people arguing about uh tender and whether it should be in this wikipedia article none of this is me this is just other people talking about whether you should be allowed to put tender in there

for and against whether it's wikipedian or not all right so what you just saw was llama scrolling through pages and pages and pages of fights over the topic of whether or not it is okay to use tender or not on wikipedia what you may have also heard in the background was a chirping that is llama's bird they have a cockatiel named Cocky. And not only that, but also in the home, that's Cocky is a regular guest on Get Your Pets. Also in the home live two dogs. They're both cockapoos and one is named Chloe and the other one's named Coco. So it's very adorable over there and reading Anglond. Llama did this video last year, but if you go there now, there's still a ton of argument and every argument is a full paragraph.

I will let you, the listener, go into the talk section of the streets Wikipedia page and search for tender and get the contours of this debate. On the one hand, some of the Wikipedia editors feel that tender is an expression of opinion, that it's non-neutral. The tender age of five is somehow giving an emotional context that doesn't need to be there. On the other hand, as user 213.235.24.138 points out, quote, someone show me a specific Wikipedia policy against the use of adjectives and I will back down. They are really into this. Now, I have my own opinion about whether Mike Skinner started playing keyboards at the tender age of five or not. But first, Taylor and Jean, have you ever had weird things happen with people editing your Wikipedia page? Or have you ever edited your own Wikipedia page, which I don't think you're supposed to do?

I've tried. My Wikipedia page is crazy and has so much false information on it because people mess with Wikipedia pages all the time. And I tried to get in there and correct it. I didn't realize that that was very frowned upon. And so then they were like, oh, she's trying to edit it herself. I think I got banned. You were the tender age of today years old when you learned. There is an age conspiracy on my Wikipedia as well, which I think is hilarious.

I mean, I've done stuff with the Wikimedia Foundation, and they seem like stand-up people as an organization, as far as I can tell. So there's an organization there that you can appeal to. Did you try to? I have not tried that, I should ask. Jean, have you ever successfully? I have tried. Because I, too, everything on my, up 99% of my Wikipedia page is wrong. It has always been wrong.

All of the updates are wrong. They never have anything I'm doing. Where I'm from is wrong. It's just wrong. I'm surprised that my name is right on there because that's about the only thing. And I did also try to get in and edit myself. And then they shut that down so they won't let me correct anything. And I did write in and I was like, can I please do this?

It's me. And they're like, no, you can't. So I was going to ask if anyone, anyone, it has been just, I really, I've been trying to do this for like 10, 15 years to be in control of my own Wikipedia page and put the correct information on there. You're not allowed to do it. Do you guys know Annie Rewarder who does Depths of Wikipedia? No. I don't know her, but I know that account for sure. Yeah.

Well, she herself is a powerful Wikipedia editor. Really? So maybe she can, we can appeal to her. What is her name? Annie Ruerta. She does Depths of Wikipedia. Depths of Wikipedia is a really incredible account that finds the strangest Wikipedia entries, the most charmingly strange Wikipedia entries.

And I wonder where she stands on the controversy of Tinder. Might have to ask her about that. Yeah. You know what we need on Wikipedia? We need, like they have on Google reviews and Yelp, like we need the ability to respond. They should let the person respond. Because I would be responding all day. I agree.

But until that happens, let me suggest a strangers on a train type of arrangement. Taylor, I'll edit your Wikipedia page. Jean, you edit my Wikipedia page. And Taylor, you edit Jean's Wikipedia page. I like this plan. Someone has to do it. They would never know, just because we said it on a podcast, that this was happening. I wonder what they would...

No. I wonder what the... They'll never catch us. Okay, as for Tinder on Wikipedia, here's what I have to say about this. I am against trolling except one circumstance. The only form of trolling I have ever endorsed is when Late Night with Colbert writer and incredibly funny person and writer Ariel Dumas goes on Twitter and simply says, Zelda is the boy pertaining to the Legend of Zelda video game franchise. boy pertaining to the Legend of Zelda video game franchise. She'll just say,

Zelda is the boy, and just watch people go out of their minds trying to explain to her that Zelda is the princess and that the boy is Link. And then she will simply say, and I've talked about it on the podcast before, with a very straight face on Twitter, it's like, no, the name of the game is Legend of Zelda, and the character is on the cover is the main character. It's the boy. Zelda is the boy. And they're like, no, it's the princess. Like, no, it's a very famous game. And just goes on. And it's so funny to me.

So you didn't enjoy when I used to do that? Did you used to do that before she did? On Twitter? When I used to be like, I just found out that there's this comic book called, character called Jean Grey. That's right. I forgot about that. And then I would wait for men to explain it to me. I can't. All right. gray that's right i forgot about that and then i would wait for men to explain it to me i can't all right so that's okay gene you're right when you when you would go on twitter and say that you had never heard of gene gray the x-men character that your

name is an homage to and people would go bananas yeah equal equal rights equal rights fun as much as i adore llama cocky chloe and coco i have say, Llama, you know you're trolling when you put tender into tender age of five. You know what you're doing. You know what you're doing. And guess what? I endorse it. Because it's funny. It's silly. It's silly. And it's harmless. I dare say it's tender. So you keep doing it. People are so bananas about tender anyway. Taylor and Jean, that's everything we got. I do have one last quick letter before we go. I'm going to read it in a second. But Taylor, I just want to say thank you so much for joining us. Everyone go out and check out the new book, Extremely Online, The Untold Story of Fame, Influence, and Power on the Internet. I say check out. Look, if it comes to your library, you can check it out. But until then, why don't you go and pre-order it wherever books are sold? And I think it's really a fascinating subject. This whole influencer economy just bubbled up under our noses when we weren't looking. And what I

love about your book is it outlines just how profound an effect it's going to have on our culture, obviously entertainment culture, but just how we interact with each other. Thank you. Yeah. And so good luck with it, Taylor. And where online do you want people to find you? I mean, at this point. Yes, please, please find me. I'm just I'm at Taylor Lorenz on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. You can find me anywhere just at Taylor Lorenz. Okay, excellent. And Jean, of course, you've got all your projects going. Where can people find you? Don't. Very good. Perfect. Don't find Jean Gray. Leave me alone.

Let's read this last letter before we go. It's not a case. It's just a formal announcement from Tricia in Salt Lake City. Joel, pay attention because I think you're going to relate to this. Okay. All right. I used to run social media for the NPR station in a major city. We worked hard to provide great local journalism. But for years, the most frequent comment we would get back on the news stories we posted were three words that still raise my blood pressure. Bring back jazz. Jazz is dead.

First time I've ever seen Joel laugh this summer. Never mind the fact that the station had dropped its jazz programming many, many years ago. No matter what the story, the news story was about, it had nothing to do with it. Every time, bring back jazz. So, to the jazzy internet trolls, I, Tricia, would like to say once and for all, jazz is cool, but it's not coming back. Your war has been lost. I fully endorse this. I'm not against jazz, but yeah, it's hard. It's hard when a radio station changes its programming. I get it.

All right. The docket is clear. And that's it for another tender episode of Judge John Hodgman. Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. Marie Barty runs our social media and our producer is Jennifer Marmer. The show is on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. Marie Barty runs our social media and our producer is Jennifer Marmer. The show is on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. Follow us there for evidence and other photos from the show. And check out the Maximum Fun subreddit to discuss this episode at MaximumFun.reddit.com. And also remember, we're hitting the road. It's our Van Freaks Roadshows tour.

And also remember, we're hitting the road. It's our Van Freaks Roadshows tour. You can get all the details and tickets at vanfreaksroadshow.com. You can also go there and submit your cases if you have disputes that you'd like adjudicated on stage by me, your judge, John Hodgman, in Lexington, Chicago, Madison, St. Paul, Austin, Atlanta, Durham, Charlottesville, Washington, D.C., Portland, Maine. Portland, Maine or Portland, Maine? Portland. Right. Portland, Maine, Bustown, Massachusetts, and Brookline, New York. Go to vanfreaksroadshow.com. Hey, Joel, where do you want to be found on the Internet these days? The main man.

The main man on Instagram. Instagram. Instagram. Yeah. M-A-I-N-E-M-A-N-N. Almost a two million followers. Almost a two million followers. The number one influencer in the banger main area. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you.