Judge John Hodgman - Passing the Bar

Episode Date: September 26, 2012

Erin brings the case against her co-worker Abby, whom she accuses of ducking out of pre-planned happy hour events.

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This week, passing the bar. Erin brings the case against her friend and co-worker Abby. They work in an office that regularly schedules happy hours at a nearby bar. Erin accuses Abby of ducking out of happy hour, even when it's planned around Abby's own schedule. She wants Abby to stand by her word when she says she'll attend. Abby says the gang is getting together whether she comes or not, and it's OK to decide that she'd rather spend the evening doing something else. Who's on the right? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom.

Hey, what time is it? Oh, wake up, everybody. It's now happy hour. Wake up. It is now happy hour. Hey, minna genki kai? Hey. Asada, miyasa mase? Hey. Kiyomo genki ippai? Hey. Ikuse? Go. Go. Go. Bailiff Jesse, swear swear them in please rise and raise your right hands do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god or whatever i do i do do you swear to abide by judge john hodgman's ruling despite the fact that the only happy hour drinking he does is in a private club that's on board a dirigible. I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman.

Hello, everyone. Which is Erin? I'm Erin. All right. And Abby, you are? I am here. You are here as well. All right.

Very well. Now, for an immediate summary judgment, can either of you name the specific piece of culture I was paraphrasing as I entored as I entored as I entored the coward room. I can't. I can't, Your Honor. The answer is it was the lyrics, a dramatic reading of the lyrics

of the song Shonen Knife Planet from the album from 1998 by the band Shonen Knife entitled Happy Hour. I'm sorry to hear that you are not Shonen Knife entitled Happy Hour. I'm sorry to hear that you are not Shonen Knife fans, but I think probably even the hardest of core Shonen Knife fans would not have necessarily recognized my stilted reading of those lyrics.

So we must go forward and actually hear this case. Now, Erin, you bring this case to the court. What justice do you seek? I'm hoping that you can force Abby to attend a regular happy hour, but only because she actually wants to. She just doesn't have follow through on what she wants to do. No problem. Abby, I am forcing you to drink a lot more. Okay, can we move on?

You put me in an uncomfortable position, Erin. You are asking me to give a court order for Abby to go to more bars. Is that correct? That is correct. That could be a little tricky. What is the problem, Abby? Why aren't you going to bars all the time with your friend? Are you friends or are you coworkers or what is your relationship?

Abby. We met as coworkers and I like to think that we have become friends. Aaron's a lot of fun to hang out with. So are the other people who attend the regular happy hour. It's just like on a Monday, I know that the happy hour is going to happen on Thursday. And on Monday, it sounds like a great idea to get drunk on Thursday. And then like Thursday will roll around, and it'll be like, well, like Wednesday night, I'll roll around and my husband will start getting really judgy on me and be like, hey, he just gets real judgy when I get drunk. I have no problem with people being judgy.

Believe me. So I'll start feeling guilty and then um we also have a three-year-old child uh-huh that um i have to take care of and um my husband starts saying oh he starts saying things like yeah that's fine we can do bedtime by ourselves um so the next day at work, I'll get to work and it's kind of easy for me to skip out of happy hour. As happy as I am with being judgy, I do not like being manipulative, passive aggressive, especially when someone speaks of the child going, we don't mind. Let me get some clarifying questions here. Erin, how often do these happy hours happen? Okay, we have a regular happy hour every other Thursday,

but I'm not asking for every other Thursday. Every other Thursday you have a regular happy hour, and are there supplemental happy hours? There are supplemental happy hours, and when those occur, sometimes it's because Abby says, hey, guys, on Wednesday night. I'm just asking some questions. I can see where you're going. I don't need your character assassination right now.

Okay. I just need some basic questions answered. At least two happy hours a month. On average, would you say there are three? Three or four. Three or four. Okay. Abby, what is the purpose of these happy hours? would you say there are three? Three or four. Three or four, okay. Abby, what is the purpose of these happy hours?

To, you know, just get together, have fun, complain about the work day. And is the point to get drunk, that may not be the point, of course, conviviality, collegiality, that is the point. But is the effect to, you guys all like to go out drinking? We're adults.

We're not binge drinking. We're just having a couple cocktails. No, okay. That does not sound offensive in any way. But I'm asking Abby. I was invited. I'm just having a couple cocktails. Abby, what kind of bar is it?

Typically, it's at a location called Patty Red's. It's directly across the street from our office building. Okay. I will lift the no-buzz marketing ban just so that I understand where you are in the world. What is the town that we're talking about? Fort Worth, Texas. Fort Worth, Texas. Patty Red's in Fort Worth, Texas.

What kind of bar is it? It's a pretty standard bar. No food, just booze. I could call it a dive. Excuse me. I shall have, I shall have order here. I'm trying to get, I'm trying to, I'm trying to get the Yelp description of Patty Reds here. All right.

I would call it a dive, except it has a, the bathrooms are delightfully clean. They smell of bleach all the time, which is a hallmark for any bar or restaurant that I patronize. Well, see, there you go. Excuse me for a moment. It's in a basement. Excuse me for a moment. You see, Erin, there you go. The problem here is that Abby doesn't like alcohol so much as she enjoys huffing fumes from chemicals.

I'd be willing to spend more time in the bathroom. Well, I mean, typically when you think of a dive bar, you think of a place where like your feet stick to the floor when you walk into the bathroom. But that is not the case with Patty Reds. It is a basement bar. Once you walk in, you have no idea what time of day it is outside. And once you walk in, you have no idea what time of day it is outside. So all bets are off as to when you will leave the bar.

It's a delightful establishment. I wish there was some other way to tell time besides seeing the color of the sky. I agree with you, Bailiff Jessie. I agree with you completely. Well, they actually have things that go on your wrist that show you what color the sky is. Friendship bracelets? Yeah. Mood bracelets. So, Abby, you have some affection for this place.

You don't hate this place, right? Is that the issue? No, no. No, it's a nice place. This is a place for drinking, though. This is not a tapas bar. This is not a wine bar. Absolutely not. All right. Now i will let you speak aaron since

you're all liquored up obviously aaron what i think it's more than a tapas or just a place to drink because you can order pizza in and we do that it's delivered i'm it's it's it's a bar that's true oh they also sell cigarettes. You can still smoke indoors in Fort Worth. So you said that you enjoy cocktails there. What are the mixological delights that they put together there? I presume they have an artisanal cocktail program there, something, a mix of pre-prohibition cocktails and interesting new cocktails uh, uh, new cocktails with a variety of different kinds of bitters and infusions. They do have that. In fact, Ryan brings in basil and bell peppers and everything, but I just get when Ryan's on duty, if it's, if it's the other guy, uh, he's,

he's like, if it doesn't have beer or a hard liquor and one other ingredient, it's not going to be – that's true. That's Dennis, and he doesn't do the fancy stuff. Right. So Ryan is the cocktail nerd that you both secretly have a crush on. And Dennis – Well, no. Erin has tried to set another one of her friends up with that guy. With Ryan, the cocktail nerd.

Yes, with Ryan. Or Dennis, the Boil. Yes, with Ryan. Or Dennis, the boiler maker. Not Dennis. With Ryan. Yeah, it was Ryan. Dennis, whiskey and beer. That is a good description of Dennis.

And so what happened between you, just out of pure gossip, since we're all just girls talking, what happened between your friend and cocktail nerd? She didn't think his hobbies were interesting enough. she doesn't she's not really into guys with arm garters who make fancy cocktails and read cocktail books all day long that's true she has some really high standards what what what was other hobbies penny filing motorcycles and exotic pets he likes tv okay good right but i'm sure he cut the cord and he only steals Vietnamese telenovelas via BitTorrent. I'm hoping it's that strange, but I think he's just watching TV.

I think he's watching like Adult Swim. Yeah, probably. That's about as close as you can get to a Vietnamese telenovela via BitTorrent, let me tell you. He works the breakfast shift at the Patty Reds, which starts at 2 p.m. He calls it the breakfast shift. Okay, very well. So this sounds like a bar that you both like, right?

And you have some history in. Yes. Abby, did you go to this bar before you had this husband and baby who team up against you all the time? No. I didn't start work at this job until my child was, I think he was almost a year old. Okay. How old is your child now?

He is three. And what is this job? We work for the Corps of Engineers. The Army Corps of Engineers? Yes. Oh, do you know my Aunt Janice Donlon in Philadelphia? Tragically, no. I think she retired from the Army Corps of Engineers where she was an administrative executive for probably 30 years.

Are you sure you haven't heard of her, Janice Donlon? I'm sorry, I don't have much contact with that district. So are you a member of the service, both of you? Yes, I am an active duty captain in the Army. Oh, wow. And so that's another reason why it's easy for me to decline happy hour last minute. Because if I don't bring a change of clothes with me to work, I can't hit the bar in my uniform. So I just have to be like, oh, guys.

Why can't you hit the bar on your uniform? It's against Army regulation. Not in the movies that I've seen. In the movies that I've seen, dudes are drinking in uniform all the time. Is that true? You're not allowed to drink in uniform? Well, I mean, you can drinking in uniform all the time. Is that true? You're not allowed to drink in uniform? Well, I mean, you can drink in uniform.

And if you go to a restaurant that has a full bar, but they also serve food, then it's okay for you to sit down and eat. You just can't consume, you know, alcohol. Seems like there are a lot of drinking loopholes in this woman's army? So I would get in a substantial amount of trouble if I went over to Patty Red's in my uniform and just, you know, started drinking. Well, Captain, first of all, thank you for your service. Second of all, is that really true? Would you really get into a lot of trouble? It is against army regulation.

That is true. Erin? I'm sorry? Silence, Private. Are you in the Army? I am not in the Army anymore. Are you trying to get your friend kicked out of the Army like you? Not actively.

But you did serve? Yes, I was in the Army. And what was your rank when you were kicked out? When I exited the service i was a specialist that's me for you're a specialist yes a specialist didn't want tempting people to drink no may i ask what what what your expertise was or or where you were stationed or any details whatsoever or shall i just just presume you were working for the CIA? I was in the Army Reserves, and I was located out of Omaha, and I was a 73 Delta accounting specialist.

Well, thank you for your service as well, and I'm glad you guys are getting drunk together now. But, Erin, you concur. She would get in trouble if she were drinking in her uniform. Right, but I see an, you, you concur. She would get in trouble if she were drinking in her uniform. Right. But I see an easy solution to that problem. Abby, what do you want out of this?

Do you want her to stop pressuring you? Because you know, your child is getting older. You probably want to spend more time with your child. Your husband is a manipulative jerk, but he probably, you're probably in love with him. Is it that you,

is it, is it that he is just putting pressure on you and it's too much to bear and you really want to go? Or is it that you kind of don't want to go and you've grown out of it a little bit and it's just hard to tell your friend Aaron who's still whooping it up? Well, I really enjoy hanging out and getting drunk. I have gotten progressively worse at recovering from hangovers. Right. And I mean, this is not like drink till you're blackout drunk or anything.

I understand. But I mean, I never drink. So if I have like two or three cocktails, the next morning I wake up and I'm like, oh my God, I hate myself. I also have a self-control issue. I don't exactly trust myself around alcohol because it's a pretty slippery slope for me. One minute I'm like spitting one like vodka soda and the next thing you know, I'm like three sheets to the wind and I'm like, oh, it's two in the morning. Why are we stopping? Why are we stopping? I also live, Happy Hour takes place in Fort Worth and I live in Dallas.

So it's like a 45 minute drive for me to get home. So it's also a logistical issue, which adds to the fact that I have a hard time saying no to my son's big brown eyes. When my husband's like, we can do it alone. So, yeah. Yeah. You have a control issue with your son's big brown eyes. Yes. First, you're looking at your son and you're just, you know, tussling his hair.

And then all of a sudden it's two o'clock in the morning and you're not letting him go to sleep and you're making him dance for you. Exactly. Yeah, I understand. You like your son. Erin, why are you putting pressure on this person who clearly because on on monday she'll come to work and say oh my gosh aaron guess what i'm single on wednesday and let's have happy hour and i'm like sweet i'll send out the outlook invite and let people know we're drinking in celebration of Abby being a single

lady. I already let you guys buzz market your crazy bar. I don't need you to buzz market Outlook on my podcast, especially. It's bad enough that we're using Skype. I don't want to shill for two Microsoft products today, okay? So you send out the invites and then what happens? She cancels. So Wednesday she shows up and she stops by my cube and is like, Hey, um, so about tonight, I, well, I didn't bring clothes and you know, this is what's happening and I'll probably just be going home. And I'm like, but you came to me and said that you wanted happy hour and then I planned it for you and people are expecting you

and now you're not going to be there. How do you respond to that, Abby? In my defense, people don't get too excited when I go to happy hour. There's going to be drinking even if I'm not there. Good times will be had. Yeah, but you're welching on a deal. Well,

shing on a deal to use the, the, the ethnic intolerant term. This, this is true. And I am guilty of it. Is that what they taught you in, in the army?

No, no loyalty. At least not in any of the Army movies I've ever seen. That's not what they taught. They taught you to wear your uniform and drink in it. And do I understand, Erin, that you have on occasion volunteered to bring extra clothes so that Abby could change out of her uniform in order to go on your girls' drunk night out? In fact, I keep clothes in my cubicle just for that event. I have a variety of workout clothes, so that way I never fail to work out

because I didn't pack that morning, and she's welcome to have them at any time. So you want her to wear your Olivia Newton-John aerobics outfit? Well, I don't work out in that, and it's a dive bar. It doesn't, it doesn't have to be awesome looking. She's not impressing us. We're just drinking at a dive bar across the street. I would say that these workout clothes though are a pretty new addition to the standby wardrobe for me. I mean, those are like new to the point of like within the last like two to three months uh prior to that and your honor i believe you have uh some pieces of um evidence to support this i'll look at that evidence now

all right i see i see photographs here of uh of pieces of clothing on a hanger off a uh off a uh a vertical file no exactly yeah a filing system of some kind in an office. There is a black dress that looks fairly attractive. And then sort of a blue denim shirt that looks with a tag on it that looks like something you would wear if you worked at a big box store. Yes, and these were the two pieces of clothing that were kept on standby for me. These were the two pieces of clothing that were kept on standby for me. I would like to say that there is a slight height difference between Erin and me. She's about 5'10", and I'm 5'5". So I'm not convinced the cocktail dress would have been the best option for me to go with,

especially since I still would have had to have worn my boots with them. I had shoes. And the denim shirt, as awesome as it is, I didn't really have any, there weren't any pants that accompanied that shirt option. Right. Let me ask you, though, what happens in a situation, I mean, Aaron's complaint is not so much that you don't drink enough, but that you will suggest that you do want to go to the happy hour and socialize with your friends. She organizes it.

And then a couple of days later, as it happens, you back out of the deal. Why are you backing out of the deal? And I want you to answer as honestly as possible. What goes through your mind where you decide this is not for me tonight? I think it's my fear of hangovers. My fear of traveling the public transportation system of the DFW Metroplex inebriated and alone. And then, you know, missing story time and the whole, you know, family thing. story time and the whole you know family thing so and reasonable fears i would say for for a human to have why are you instigating these these happy hours because that's here's the thing if you were

to say well that was a case where i did say i would do it but then uh something came up and my husband manipulated me into watching a television show or something, or he, he started to mope when I wouldn't agree to watch storage wars with him or whatever. Uh, and therefore I had to cancel in this particular situation, but I really wanted to go.

But in this case, what you describe your concerns, um, which I have to take seriously, not only because you're there, your concerns, but they also involve, uh, alcohol and your relationship to it.

So I'm trying to be very sensitive to that. Those aren't going to change any time there is happy hour. You're always going to be feeling like, I might have a hangover, I don't want to miss my family, and I don't want to go home on the whatever it is, the DFW space trolley, or what did you call it, Metroplex? The Metroplex public transportation system. The Metroplex PTS.

Fort Worth isn't really big enough to be... It's a city, but for whatever reason, it gets lumped in with Dallas, and they call it the Metroplex. So Dallas and Fort Worth both have the same public transportation system. And the and they call it the Metroplex. So Dallas and Fort Worth both have the same public transportation system. And the whole thing is called the Metroplex? Yeah, well that's what they call both cities

put together. The Metroplex. And under a dome, right? It's all under a gigantic dome. It is. It is. Your Honor, I have a response to what she's saying. Okay. I love to hear one friend try to convince another friend to drink when she doesn't want to. Go on.

The last time she canceled on me the morning of, she literally said, I really want to go to happy hour, but I'm going to be home alone tonight. Meaning the child and husband aren't even factoring in. And I want to do a puzzle on my living room floor when a three-year-old won't be there to mess it up no that's not I did not request that happy hour I requested a happy hour the Friday before which I attended and then that the next week Erin was like hey you want to go to happy hour and I said no I want to go home and work on my puzzle. That's not how it happened. That's I promise. That's how it happened. And Aaron, that doesn't feel very army to you.

You know, what you do off duty is what you do off duty. But she did request that happy hour. It's not very much. I requested, though. Wait a minute. Did you did you request the happy hour. It's not very macho. I attended the happy hour I requested, though. Wait a minute. Did you request the happy hour and then say, I can't do it because I got to do a jigsaw puzzle? No, I requested a happy hour. I attended that happy hour. And then there was an additional happy hour that I did not request. Right.

And Aaron asked me if I wanted to go. And I said, no, thank you. I want to go home and work on my puzzle. Aaron, is it possible that you're too drunk to remember the difference between these two stories? I usually don't get drunk until after work. All right. Very well. Am I reaching you both at work? Is the government paying for this call?

No. All right. So, Erin, in this case, she did not request the happy hour. She bowed out in order to do a jigsaw puzzle, but that was not acceptable to you? That's not how I remember the facts. I remember her husband and her son were in Arkansas, and she wanted multiple happy hours, and then she canceled the second one for the pants-off puzzle in her living room. You understand just the phrase multiple happy hours raises huge substance abuse

red flags to me. Look, I know you guys are in Texas and you do things differently. And I enjoy my gin martini, but she requested multiple happy hours. There should be multiple happy hours. Good heavens. How does it make you feel when your friend doesn't come to happy hour? Honestly, I don't mind it when she doesn't come for happy hour, except in the instances when she comes to me and says, let's do happy hour and then cancels last minute. I see. And Abby, how do you respond to that?

I think that's legitimate. It's a lack of follow through on my part. it's a lack of follow through on my part. Does it feel a little frustrating to have a specialist try to order you around? I'm not sure there has ever been a situation in Aaron's life where she has not been the one delivering orders. So I'm fairly certain that I am not alone. Maybe that's why the army didn't work out for her.

Didn't you spend a lot of time in a windowless room bouncing a tennis ball against the wall? I will agree that hierarchy is not for Erin. Erin, do you agree? I will say it's probably not that extreme as it's currently being described, but yes, I've been known to have issues with authority. Okay. Now,

Abby, I need to ask you a serious question because you've expressed some concern about your relationship with alcohol here. Is there a, are you concerned that you may have a drinking problem? No, no, I'm not.

All right. For real, right? We're honest. We're going to be honest, I'm not. All right. For real, right? We're going to be honest with each other here? Honest, yes. Okay. Do you feel that if you go to happy hour, that if you really disciplined yourself, you might be able to have one or two drinks and then go home in a non-totally blotto state? Yes.

Right? Okay. So that's an option for you? Do you acknowledge that that's an option for you? That is an option for me. Yes. If you, right. Okay. So that's a, that's an option for you. Do you acknowledge that that's an option for you? That is an option for me. Okay. Uh, but sometimes you just want to do a jigsaw puzzle, right?

Uh, absolutely. All right. It was a really cool jigsaw puzzle. What was it? What was it? Um, it was a,

it was a four dimensional puzzle. Was it a huge jigsaw puzzle of a bottle of bleach? Yes, absolutely. It was an amazing jigsaw puzzle. It was a 4D puzzle. Yes, absolutely. It was actually a 4D puzzle of Washington, D.C. It was very exciting. Oh my goodness. That's our nation's capital. It is, sir.

And Erin, is there an age differential between you guys? Like 11 months. Okay. And Erin, do you have a family, husband, children, partner, anything? I'm married. Without children, though?

Without children. Okay. All right. I think I have everything I need to make my decision. Permission to exit to go to my chambers? Permission granted, Your Honor. Thank you, ma'am. Here I go.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Aaron, how are you feeling about your chances? I don't know. I think it's a toss-up. Has going through this process changed your feelings about the conflict at all? No, I'm pretty much in the same place. Abby, how are you feeling? I'm not feeling good.

Oh, really? Why is that? Too much to drink? I think I'm going to get a lecture on sticking to my plans when I'm the one who makes them. What if something really good comes up? Like a sweet puzzle of the Empire State Building. sweet puzzle of the Empire State Building. My dad gave it to me for Christmas and he had been asking me

if I had worked my puzzle. And I was like, God damn it. So I finally got around to opening it when my husband and son went out of town. And I thought I was about to finish it so that I could, you know, add the fourth dimension to this puzzle and chronologically place the monuments on this puzzle.

But it turned out there was a whole other layer to the puzzle. So it would have taken me about a year instead of four days to put this puzzle together. So I actually just put it back in the box. Abby, I don't mean to be presumptive here, but do you think some of this problem might have come up because your emotional relationship with your father is built in the gifting and construction of puzzles. This is actually the first puzzle he's ever given

me. So was that like, did you send him a wishlist that said iPhone five puzzle? No, he, he gave my sister and I, uh, the same presents, uh, this past Christmas. Oh, it's a competition. Well, I got a 3D puzzle of Washington DC and she got a, or excuse me, a 4D puzzle of Washington DC and she got a four dimensional puzzle of New York city. Whoa. So your sister has some kind of you, your father has access to 4D puzzles. Well, the fourth dimension comes into play when you add the 3D pieces.

Is he an astronaut? Tragically, no. Time traveler? May I? This is John Hodgman emerging from my chamber for just a moment. May I ask, when your father pits you against your sister, is she in the Navy Corps of Engineers? No, she's not. She's not. All right. Sorry, go ahead, Jesse.

I'm going back. None of the pieces fit together on this story. I'm against it. In fact, I'm going to issue a blanket shut your pie hole to all this puzzle 4D madness

defying the laws of physics. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the court. Here's the thing. It's always complicated when friends go through life changes at different paces.

And I can tell you that's even more complicated when it comes to friends going through life paces at different changes and one of them has to choose between a child and delicious alcohol. Maybe I speak of some experience here.

I'm not going to go further. no longer becomes as regular due to one's love of the more domestic pleasures of doing jigsaw puzzles and sniffing model glue. And especially when it comes to alcohol, you know, you've got to be wary of whether or not the drinking behavior is healthy and so forth. You don't want to be pushing a behavior onto a friend in order to get those good old times back when that friend might be backing off that behavior for other reasons. Now, in this case, Abby, it seems like you're backing off going out as often because you actually have, A, a manipulative husband, and B, a child who is cute, and C, a love of hobby crafts and the various solvents that are used to put them together. And so it is not necessarily a concern that you're trying to stay away from alcohol for us to avoid a drinking problem.

So that's good. But it still is ultimately an issue where, Abby, you've got to decide what it is you want to do, be straightforward about why you want to do it, and do it and not apologize, because Erin even if you were not your subordinate in the army cannot just order you to do things

you are a grown person now, I dare say a captain of your own life. And if you want to sit around making a ninth-dimensional puzzle of the Metroplex for you to crawl into and disappear into, that is your business. And you should be able to do that without reproach and without apology. And here is the thing that I take issue with. You are in effect apologizing your behavior because you're pretending that you don't want to do it.

You don't want to stay home. You want to go out on this happy hour. You suggest the happy hour. And then when it comes down to it, you kind of don't want to go. And then everyone gets disappointed in you. And then, you become almost as a manipulative jerk as your husband.

And that, while I totally think that sitting around doing a crossword puzzle, or, excuse me, a jigsaw puzzle, or a crossword puzzle, for that matter, please don't do any Sudoku. Please don't do any Bananagrams, because that's the worst. But staying home, watching a tv show just hanging out if that's what you choose to do if you want to be

with your family instead of with boiler maker and the cocktail nerd drinking until two o'clock in the morning i think that's a reasonable choice as an adult to make that i'm sure aaron appreciates and would appreciate more if you simply said i I'm going to do something else tonight. I'm sorry, I cannot do happy hour. And stop requesting happy hours that you back out of. I find in favor, in a narrow sense, for Aaron. Abby, you have a right to do whatever you want in your life. You have a right to do whatever you want in your life.

And in no way should you ever be compelled by a court, by your conscience, or by a specialist or former specialist retired to go out drinking last minute at need or out of simple desire. Maybe simply saying, you know what? I thought I was really into it. I'm really sorry. No more. Not tonight. But you may not go and set up a happy hour unless you plan to attend it. If you request it, you must attend it. Otherwise, it is your decision to do. But in this case, I find narrowly in the

favor of Aaron. No more false starts. No more cocktail teases, as it were. You announce it. You commit to it. You do it the army way. You attend. You pull your duty. You attend. Otherwise, you're free to do whatever you want. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Erin, you've emerged triumphant, if narrowly.

How are you feeling? Pretty good. What are your immediate plans? I'm going to wait for Abby to break down and ask me to schedule a happy hour. And then when that happens, I'm going to remind her that she has to go to the ones that she wants. Abby, what was it like for you to lose this case? I kind of anticipated I would. Really? Yes, I was anticipating defeat. Once you realized you were wrong?

Well, yeah. I think I really realized I was going to lose last night when I started seeing the suggested titles for this podcast, and then I was like, oh, wow, I'm really a loser. But, yeah. Well, Abby, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Permission to say one last thing, Captain. Yes.

Permission granted. You have to say permission granted. Permission granted. Permission to speak at will. Please speak at will. You're not a loser. That's the whole point of my ruling. You should not feel like you're a loser because you want to stay home and do a jigsaw puzzle.

Don't let your friend bully you. Your own truth is good enough. I realized I was a loser because I was backing out last minute on these plans that I had. Oh, yeah, then I agree. Initiated. Totally a loser then. Yeah, absolutely. Don't be embarrassed by your own truth, Captain.

Abby, Aaron, thanks for joining us on Judge John Hodgman. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Thank you guys very much. Appreciate it. Judge Hodgman, when you got into this business, did you ever think you would be dispensing military justice? This is, it's actually, it's actually a tribunal. The standard of proof is much different. And by the way, how do you like, how do you like my

chambers? I've, I've dressed it up to look like the swamp from mash and I'm distilling my own gin and I'm, I'm about to start belittling a boston brahmin surgeon in a moment right now be quiet over there winchester um let's clear the docket you hear something from john he writes i have two questions first in relation to your episode on spoilers is it a spoiler to say who joss Whedon kills off in a movie or TV show? I feel it is ambiguous because you know it's going to happen. You just don't know to whom. Well, no, that is two questions, but I don't think that you mean it to be.

You said, is it a spoiler to say who Joss Whedon kills off in a movie or TV show? That means you're naming the character. That would obviously be a spoiler, even though you don't know who it's going to happen to. If you were to say someone dies in this movie or TV show, which is your second part, where it is actually ambiguous about to whom it is going to happen, then I would not necessarily count that as a spoiler. That is like saying someone is going to learn something by the end of this thing lots of times people die in things i think it's on the it's on the the the the verge of spoiler but certainly to say whom joss whedon is going to murder uh is a spoiler and by the way i'm not accusing joss whedon of murder

i am um we have another question here from darice think she. I'm going to say she. My boss Norm is a prideful New England native from Winthrop, Massachusetts. And Norm is a woman? Norm is a woman? Yes, Norm is a woman. Like Norm from Cheers. Right, okay, gotcha. My boss Norm is a prideful New England native from Winthrop, Massachusetts. I'm a Midwest transporter

to the East Coast and was baffled when our office challenged a neighboring office to a game of big ball bowling. I was quickly schooled on candle pin bowling, a version of the sport specific to this region. I know it well. The name of this game has become a point of contention in the past four years, which is the real bowling. I insist that real bowling is traditional ten pin and if candle pin bowling is being discussed that it should be specifically referred to as such. Norm insists that candle pin bowling is real bowling

and that the ten pin version should be referred to as big ball bowling. As a native New Englander yourself, we figured you would be the most qualified to pronounce judgment on this matter, and we will defer to your ruling. Yes, I have rolled many a small ball, excuse me, three holes in a large ball bowling and you throw them at a womanly curved pin, that is ten pin bowling.

Candle pin bowling in the New England area has straight pins that sort of resemble candles if they were bulged slightly in the middle and had no wicks. And the balls themselves are much more like, I guess what most

people would know as bocce balls. The size of a hefty grapefruit, maybe a little bit larger, and you get three rolls instead of two. And it's frankly much more of a game of aim than of power.

And then there is duck pin bowling, which if memory serves, and it may not in this case, and I look forward to your angry emails and Twitters soon, is sort of played more in the mid-Atlantic states or maybe in rural New York state. And that is also small ball bowling. And the pins themselves are like miniature 10 pins, a little fatter down at the bottom. Bowling in this regard, the 10 pin and the duck pin and the candle pin

are sort of the last remnants of real regionalism in this country. And therefore I adore them. And I think they should be respected. And to suggest that one is more real than the other is frankly offensive to me. In New England, I grew up with candlepin bowling and the only reason I knew it was candlepin was that there was an astonishing television show on Saturday afternoons called Candlepins for Cash, which was live, live amateur candlepin bowling game show

that that was frankly hypnotic to watch. And you can still catch some episodes of it on YouTube. Unfortunately, the host of that show was later convicted for having some inappropriate technology on having some inappropriate pornography on his computer. So there is a dark note to candlepin bowling, always in my mind, unfortunately. But we did call it bowling, and that's how we knew it. And if you were in Winthrop, Massachusetts, and you say to anyone bowling, they are going to be referring to candlepin bowling. So I don't think that you can insist among the New Englanders around you that they must refer to it as

candlepin bowling to make you feel more comfortable as a Midwesterner. New England is not about making anyone feel comfortable. That is the Midwest you're thinking of. New England wants everyone to feel as awful and alienated as they feel. So you must call it bowling. Whether it is more real than the other bowling, I will not make a ruling there. They're all bowling in Chris Hardwick's father's eyes. Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to to you this week by our pals over at made in jesse you've heard of tom calicchio the famous chef right yeah from uh the restaurant uh craft and did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with made in pots and pans really what's an? The braised short ribs. They're made-in, made-in.

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