Judge John Hodgman - Permanent Record

Episode Date: June 19, 2013

John brings the case against his girlfriend, Emily. She has a number of tattoos and wants her next tattooed piece to be on her wrist. John wants Emily to reconsider the tattoo's placement. Can the Judge resolve an issue that's needled them both?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, the permanent record. John brings the case against his girlfriend, Emily. She has a number of tattoos and wants her next tattoo to be on her wrist. John wants Emily to reconsider the tattoo's placement. Can the judge resolve an issue that's needled them both? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Ah, this meeting brings back memories. Childhood days, lemonade, romance. My life was wrapped around the circus. Her name was Lydia. Met her at the World's Fair in 1900. Knocked down from 1940. Ah, Lydia. She was the most glorious creature under the sun. Bail if Jesse, swear them in.

Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do too. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he himself has no tattoos, as he wishes to be buried in a judge's graveyard? We will.

Yes. Judge Hodgman? Hello, John. Hello, Emily. I'm speaking to you via electronic miracle while you are in Melbourne, Australia. Is that correct? That is correct.

And that was a good pronunciation. Melbourne. Well, then I'll correct myself. I apologize. Melbourne, Australia. That's correct, right? That's more typical, yes. All right.

Very good. Yeah, that's more typical, yes. All right, very good. Where it is 6 a.m. your time and July 29th p.m. my time, a thousand days away. Have I done the conversion correctly? Pretty much. Good morning to you. Good morning.

Thank you for joining us here in the courtroom. One of our, well, I guess we've had plenty of Canadian cases, so I can't really say it's our first international case. We also had a British case, but our first trans-hemispheric case, I believe. Ooh. And what neighborhood do you live in in Melbourne? Northcote, Northcote. And is that a cool place to live?

Is that a place where tattooed people live? Very much, yes. Yeah, it is a bit. It's hip. All right. Well, I'm getting ahead of myself. First, for an immediate summary judgment, in one of yours favors, can one of you name the piece of culture that I was referencing as I entered the courtroom?

I will go with you, Emily. No, I got nothing. I have no idea. John, any thoughts? It sounded kind of old, like an old book or something. So I'm going to say Edgar Allan Poe. Well, it could not be Edgar Allan Poe, because the speaker references the World's Fair of 1900.

Come on, John. Come on, John. It's six o'clock in the morning. Yeah, I understand. But you're not 100 years off. Just a few hours. Yeah. Yeah.

The speaker was Groucho Marx in the movie the movie at the circus that was his introduction to what some consider to be his signature song lydia the tattooed lady oh lydia oh lydia say have you met lydia lydia the tattooed lady she has eyes that men adore so And a torso even more so Lydia, oh Lydia, that encyclopedia Oh Lydia, the queen of them all On her back is the Battle of Waterloo Beside it the wreck of the Hesperus II Yeah, good song, right?

Yeah, how about that? Well, yeah, nice. In this case, Emily, you are a tattooed lady. John, are you a tattooed gentleman? I am. All right. How many tattoos? And John, you are bringing the case against Emily

because she wishes to get another tattoo and you wish it not. First of all, are you married? We're not married. Second of all, are you married? We're not married. Second of all, how long have you been together? Two years. Okay.

Third of all, how many tattoos do you have, John? Three. Please name and describe them. I have a ship, a sailing ship on my shoulder, and a crow on my chest. By sailing ship, do you mean like a masted schooner? Or do you mean a tattoo of the Carnival Triumph cruise ship that ran out of power? That had an engine room fire and lost power in the Caribbean in February and people had to poop and pee in the hallways.

No, this is intentional from the making, from when they first made a sailing ship. A sailing ship from when they first made what, ships? Sailing ships, not ones that just broke down. Oh, okay, gotcha. And then you have a crow? Yes, a crow. On my chest.

Is it Drinky Crow from the comic strip Mockies by Tony Millionaire, also featuring beautiful illustrations of sailing ships? No, it is a regular crow, unfortunately. When you listen to this podcast to hear your voice and funny accent in the future, please make a note to check out Mockies, M-A-A-K-I-E-S, by Tony Millionaire. So far, I think you and your tattoos will like it. All right, third tattoo.

Okay, third tattoo is a shed tattoo that Emily and I both have of a feather. Ah, first of all, I thought you said a shed tattoo. A tattoo of a shed. It would be appropriate in Australia. That's appropriate. But then I realized you were speaking in your accent, and I apologize. A shared tattoo

of a feather. That is to say, you both have the same tattoo. You don't each have one half of a tattoo. You each have a full tattoo that matches of a feather. Where? Uh, on, on our,

on my side here on the side of my, I can't, you understand. I can't see you on your ribs. All right. So that, those are the three tattoos, Emily.

Yes. How many tattoos do you have? I have only two. You have only two tattoos. Only two, a measly two. So please describe the nature and position of each of these tattoos. I can guess one of them, a feather. Yes. Along your rib cage. You're quite correct. Yes, that's right. So that's one. Which rib? My left. Your left rib cage. All right.

Yes. And then I also have a bird, a swallow, on my upper back. That's a classic right there. Yes. So it's not one of the sailor swallows, though. It's more lifelike. A more lifelike swallow. Yes.

On your upper back. That's correct. Center position, right, left? What are we talking about? Center. Yes. On your upper back. That's correct. Center position, right, left, what are we talking about? Center, very much center. All right. And you want to get a third tattoo? I do. All right.

And John says no. John, why? Okay, please go ahead. Sorry, he doesn't say no to tattoos in general, but this one in particular and where it will be, he says no. Okay. Is it a tattoo of the Carnival Triumph on your face? What is the proposed tattoo? Okay.

It will be on my wrist, but not on your wrist where your pulse is, around the side. It's a bit hard to describe. And it will be of a tree. Yeah, it's a tree that doesn't have any leaves and it will just be an outline. And yeah, as I said, so not when you're looking directly at your palm, but around the side. It's a tree without any leaves. Is it the white tree of Gondor, the shield of Gondor?

No, is that from Lord of the Rings? No, it's not that. Very nicely done. I didn't even think of that. No, that could be a good one. But you live in Australia, not in New Zealand, so you hate Lord of the Rings. This is true.

Natural enemies. Okay, so let me understand. Which wrist are we talking about, left or right? Probably left. Probably left. Do you realize that will give you a tattoo imbalance on your left-hand side? I do know that, so I'll have to get more on my right-hand side to even it up. But this is the issue at hand, is it not?

Because the tattoo you're talking about on your left wrist, and you say not where you would take your pulse and not on the. All right. Here's what I want you and I want everyone listening to this podcast to do, especially if you're driving. Close your eyes. No, don't close your eyes. And don't do this if you're driving either. Hold out your left hand.

Palm up. Just so I can understand what we're talking about here. Okay. Now, if I put my finger on the base of my palm, that interior of the wrist where all the weird veins and guts and tendons are, is that what you're talking about? No. So move your finger to the right to under your little finger.

Under my little finger. Okay. Yes, but not on your hand. Just below. Yep, that's where. All right. And you want to put a leafless tree representing your sorrow and deep sensitivity. It is a particular tree, but no, that's hopefully not what it represents.

Before I ask about the particular tree, how big is this tree? Is that the size of a small tree? No, nothing. No, no, very small. It would have to be a bonsai if it was a real tree. Probably, I'm thinking, I'm trying to do inches. We don't have that here. About an inch.

Is that one inch i understand centimeters um maybe three three centimeters kind of tall and yeah i'm getting out my tape measure i should have done that too three centimeters centimeters tall. Okay, got it. Approximately. And two centimeters wide? Yes, at the sort of widest part, and then obviously narrowing at the trunk. So six square centimeters?

Not quite. That sounds big, doesn't it? It does sound big. No, it's not quite that big. The trunk is small. Three by two. Three by two. Right, okay, the trunk is narrow. I just want to keep saying Santa Mita.

They still say that in certain realms of the medical profession, you know. Santa Mita. What, in France? No, in North America. Perhaps not in Australia. Not in Australia. So, okay, so relatively small. Now, what is the meaning of this tattoo to you?

Well, okay, so it was from a place in the Northern Territory, which is called Kakadu, and it's really, really... This is a family podcast, please. Everything has weird names in Australia. You have to understand that. Please use the term cockapoo. Cockapoo. I will not.

That's a little, that's a little shout out to a previous episode. Ah, okay. Kakadu, Kakadu in the Northern, in the Northern territories. Yes.

Yep. And it's, yeah, it's a very, very beautiful place and very and feels very ancient. I went there a few years ago and it's a really special place and I had a beautiful holiday there. I'll be the judge of that. Kakadu National Park. Yes, that's it. National Park.

Yes, that's it. Uh-huh. Okay. Yeah, it's pretty. I get you. Cliffs. Cliffs and such. Looks like... Mm-hmm.

Well, yeah. Cliffs and plains. Yeah, it looks a little bit like the landscape from the movie Up. Ah, yes, it does. Although that was based on a part of South America. But okay, I got you. Good. Beautiful.

And there's a tree there without leaves because it's so sad. It's a happy tree. It's a special tree. What is the name of the tree? Oh, I haven't thought to give it a name. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We don't name the tree. What is its species?

What kind of tree is it? I have no idea. It's just the tree. What is its species? What kind of tree is it? I have no idea. It's just a tree. You have no idea? Is this a tree that you saw? Did you take a picture of it? How do you even know what this tree is? I have a picture of it.

I have a picture. I should have sent it, actually. Yeah. You know what? Send it to me right now because I need to see it. You understand? Okay. All right. Okay, you talk to John. I'll do that. Hang on a now because I need to see it. Okay. All right. Okay, you talk to John. I'll do that.

I'm going to talk to John. Hello, John. Hi. It's me, John Hodgman. So I have questions for you now. Okay. You object to this tattoo not in in substance, but in placement. Is that correct?

That's right. Tell me more. You know, I think that the obvious situation here is it's a tattoo that 99% of the time is seen. You can see it. Your clothes aren't going to cover it. Right. And that's the real difference. So it falls into that category. It's a different beast than a tattoo that you can put a t-shirt on, you're not going to see it.

And Emily says, I could wear a long sleeve top and a bracelet, but it's not going to happen. What do you, what do you care about that? Do you have a particular religious principle that, that bans the someone seeing your girlfriend's tattoo? No, no, I guess now this is where it gets a bit, bit more tricky.

Is it that you're a controlling monster? No, this is what I'm trying to avoid. That kind of talk. When you initially sent in your request to hear this case, you wrote, so hoping you will, but probably won't, find in my favor. Yeah, because on first glance, it might seem like I'm a controlling monster but but really i think that it would be a mistake for emily to get a tattoo on her wrist like that now now we can have a conversation why do you you can certainly offer advice to another human being who wants to disfigure themselves

why what what advice do you offer emily why do you think it is a mistake for her to get a tattoo, a small tattoo of a sad tree on a relatively obscure portion of her wrist? Well, I don't know that it's that obscure in that, you know, Emily does public speaking sometimes and does presentations and things like this where, you know, you're walking around and, you know, it's to do with the council and she had a meeting with the mayor not that long ago. Basically, you're saying she met the mayor of Melbourne?

Some mayor. We've got more than one. I see. Some mayor, yeah. Wait a minute. City of Melbourne has multiple mayors? It's a big place. Is there like a Monday through Friday mayor and a weekend mayor?

Night shift mayor of Melbourne. Time shift. That's a good pitch. Let's pitch this to CBS. Third shift colon Melbourne mayor. No, let's pitch this to CBS. Third shift, colon, Melbourne mayor. No, let's pitch it to ABC, the Australian broadcasting company. Hello. So you're saying that this is going to limit her professionally somehow

because the mayor of Melbourne or one of the mayors of Melbourne is going to freak out if he sees Sadtree on her wrist by accident? Yeah. I guess that's the core of my argument. The core is that she'll basically be prejudiced against. People will be prejudiced against her. What is her career exactly, aside from walking around and talking and meeting mayors and showing her wrist off what is her what is her job description you not know don't wait for the translation what is her job description i think it's called volunteer coordinator volunteer coordinating

person are these just words that you are seeing on the spines of the books in the bookshelf in Coordinator. Volunteer coordinating person. Are these just words that you are seeing on the spines of the books in the bookshelf in front of you? It's on the bottom of my mug. Where does she work? The city of Banuel is where her offices are. No, shaking your head. Nalimbic. Nalimbic council offices. Now you're just making

up words. The city of Nalimbic. Nalimbic? No, that's part of the lymphatic system. What is the name of the organization for which she

works PALS what? it's an acronym PALS stands for is that PALS or HALS or are you being purposely vague with your mouth sounds

PALS do you know what your girlfriend does for a living? I do, but I don't have a good understanding of how this sort of office-y work works. Well, then you are perfectly positioned to tell her how to conduct herself in her professional environment. Do you work in the field, sir?

Are you a surveyor, a lake diver, a ditch digger? Yeah. I work in construction. Is that so? You work in construction? Yeah, yeah. I'm an electrician. All right.

Very good. Where you are expected to have tattoos all over your body, traditional Australian electrician, right? By the way, how long does it take to send an email in Australia? What's going on? Is she cranking up a generator? No, I don't know. Did it work? I think so.

Are you back? Yes, I'm back. I think I sent it. Welcome back. I'm waiting for your email to be transmitted it has a it has a very long way to go yeah yeah being being transmitted uh via the uh the electronic mail relay at the earth's core and i'm sure it will be here any moment and then i'll get to see the beautiful tree that you want to have uh john was just explaining that he thought it would be unprofessional of you

to have a visible tattoo. And then I asked him what your profession was, and he made up a lot of words. What is it that you do? No, he got it mostly right. All right. I'd like to hear it from someone who can explain it briefly and succinctly so that people can understand it.

Okay. Yeah, so I'm a volunteer coordinator, and that means that I work in a not-for-profit organization that has volunteers, and I manage and recruit and interview all the volunteers and then supervise them. interview all the volunteers and then supervise them. And yeah, so they're always, it's community sector and they're, is that making sense? Yes, that makes perfect sense. Now, is it common, very common, somewhat common or not common at all

within your working group and work environment to see a sad tree on someone's wrist or a weeping angel on someone's forehead or whatever? I don't think I've seen an angel on a forehead, but tattoos and – yeah, inappropriate. Tattoos and visible tattoos are whatever whatever the medium one was quite common quite common yes common or quite common probably a bit less than really common like one one out of every five people one out of every ten or one out of every three let's say one out of every eight can that be an option uh one out of every eight. Sure. They're all numbers. They're all options.

John, does one out of every eight sound about right to you, or do you disagree with that assessment? I'm not going to disagree with that. All right. After my efforts to try and get the actual job right, I'm probably not qualified to say. No, no, you're qualified to trust your own lying eyes. If you say that there are fewer, if you've been around for many non-profit office parties or whatever, and you would say it's much less than that,

you are entitled to say that. No, no, I think she's right. Right. Good. You're under oath and you realize that. Alright. Do you have aspirations? This is a non-profit. Do you ever have aspirations for working for a profit? No, I don't because for-profit organizations are not legally allowed to have volunteers. But do you have, what are your, how old are you? I'm 28. All right. And John, how old are you?

30. 30, all right. About the same, both kind of older. You've been around for a while. What do you want to do with your life, Emily, quickly? Oh, my God. Well, I definitely do want to stay in this sector working with volunteers. You are going to stay. Let me just ask you this. Do you anticipate that you're going to stay in the one tattoo in eight sector

reasonably for the rest of your professional career? Or do you have aspirations to move into the one in 35 tattoo sector? Well, I think, yeah, reasonably I do. I do want to stay in the sector where I am. I like it. I think it's perfect. Because you live in Australia, you never have to make any money so you can continue to volunteer in the tattoo district forever, right?

Oh, I don't volunteer. I get paid. Right. You get paid for it. Right. Yes. But I'm happy to stay where I am. But, you know, move up to more senior positions in bigger organizations.

But they would still be community-based, not-for-profit organizations. Basically, if you don't have tattoos, you're going to have dreadlocks in that situation, right? Probably, yeah. Or ripped jeans or old sneakers. The next line of questioning I have has to do with this tattoo. Unfortunately, I've still not received it via ElectroMail.

So I'm going to have to invite you to paint once again a word picture of it because after all, our listeners will not be able to hear it or will not be able to see it on the podcast anyway, but we will eventually post it online.

But before we do, I want to add someone to the call so that he can hear your testimony. Stand by, please. La la la, la, la, la, la. La, la, la, la, la, la. Josh, are you there? I'm here, John.

Hi. Hey. So this is expert witness Josh Clark, one half of the podcasting team's Stuff You Should Know, everybody. Whoa! Wow. Wow.

Josh, apparently you have some fans in australia please meet emily and john nice how are you guys doing hi great with the first podcast we ever heard oh nice yeah i had i had no idea when i set this up. I had no idea. And of course, say hello to Bailiff Jesse Thorne, Josh. Yeah. Hey, Jesse, how you doing, buddy? I'm doing okay. How about you, Josh? I'm doing pretty good. It's a nice afternoon here. I even took Jesse by surprise with this one, because as we were getting onto the podcast, I sent an urgent message to Josh, not because Emily and John from Melbourne, Australia are big Stuff You Should Know fans, as am I, because I didn't know that, but because, Josh, you have more than one tattoo.

Is that not correct? That is correct. I guess I'm down to probably about an eighth of the other one now. So I have one full tattoo, and now I have just about an eighth of a tattoo. What do you mean? Ooh. What's going on? I underwent a process

to get one of them removed. Was it the one that said MS-13, the world's most dangerous game? Right, exactly. I've broken my ties with them. I've made my peace and I'm trying to move on. I understand.

Josh, before you talk about the one that you're having removed, let me explain to you the situation here. Emily and John are boyfriend and girlfriend in Australia. They both have, John has two, excuse me, three tattoos

and Emily has two and she wants to get a third, but this third one will be in a visible place on her wrist, on her left wrist. And John objects to this, fearing that it is going to cause Emily professional prejudice in the future. Sure. And I'd like to get your thoughts on that,

but I'd also like to get your thoughts first on your thought process about getting things that will be on your body for the rest of your life um okay well as far as the the visible the the getting the tattoo on the wrist yeah i think it was henry rollins who said you should never get a tattoo below your wrist because even if you go into the business world, you're going to be wearing like a shirt cuff typically. And anything that's covered by your shirt is fair game. Anything that won't be covered by your shirt cuff is – you might get discriminated against. He put it far better than I just did, but I'm pretty sure it was Henry Rollins who said that.

So it's not necessarily my opinion, but Henry Rollins knows what he's talking about when it comes to tattoos. I think he was driving a Hummer that one of the jackass guys was getting a tattoo in the back of on one of the movies. So that's Henry Rollins' take on it. Henry Rollins feels that in the world of rock and roll and spoken word performance art and movies,

having visible tattoos is possibly an object of prejudice. I'm almost positive it was Henry Rollins. So, yeah, I think so. I mean, he's a pretty sensible guy. Have you heard any of his spoken word stuff? Yeah, don't worry about that. Well, I'm just saying, he's sensible. But his advice to Emily in Australia would be don't get a tattoo that would be visible below the cuff of your shirt because you might end up double regretting it because it will hurt you in your career.

Is that what Henry Rollins is saying? Paraphrasing? Right. All right. Right. Exactly. You're going to shake someone's hand and be like, oh, no, wait, and it'll be too late. You have no visible tattoos, right?

I mean, they're visible with your shirt off, but if you have your shirt on, you're good. One, yeah, I typically keep my shirt on. Are you wearing a shirt right now? I'm wearing, yes. I'm wearing a shirt right now. Oh, I'm wearing a shirt right now. Oh, don't worry. That's fine. That's okay. Yeah, I mean, if you don't want to get with the gang. You know, this is a shirtless podcast, so...

I'm the only one wearing a shirt right now, aren't I? Yeah, you are. This is what happens when you get Skyped in late to a podcast that's already underway. That's true. to a podcast that's already underway. That's true. So tell me about the tattoo, the first tattoo that you got. The first tattoo that I got, I was a youngster.

I was, I think, 17 maybe, I don't know, mid to late teens. And I knew I wanted a tattoo. I just didn't know what I wanted. And I don't remember, I think I probably heard it from more than one person. But let's say an older boy, a local tough, suggested that if I were to get a tattoo. Yeah. And it may have been Henry Rollins now that I think about it. He has a lot of advice about tattoos. But whoever it was said, if you're going to get something, you want to get something that you're going to love for the rest of your life. So I thought about this a little more. And I realized that I was really into polo clothing at the time, like heavy into polo.

And so I thought, well, I'm sure I'll love polo for the rest of my life, so I'll just get the polo emblem tattooed on my right bicep, and I went ahead and did it. So for many, many years, about 20 years now, I've had a polo emblem on my right bicep. And to be perfectly clear for those who are listening, who may not understand this, Josh is talking about the logo for Ralph Lauren polo, the silhouette of the dude riding a horse that you would find on the breast of a polo shirt, not some generic polo image of the sport polo, but the specific brand, trademark, and brand craft of Ralph Lauren polo.

That was a pretty bad decision, but it is better than if you had decided to get the logo of the Beverly Hills polo club clothing company. That would have been far, far, far worse. It doesn't have nearly the same cachet as Ralph Lauren's polo line. You know, this is a good time for me to tell you that I have tattooed across my stomach banana Republic for life. But in the old lettering froming from back when they used to sell pith helmets.

That's right. Because I thought it would be forever. So do you regret getting the polo emblem on your bicep, and is that the one you're having removed? No. That one, I'm kind of like i like this it's it's you know i've had it for 20 years and it's just it's just so ridiculous that i it almost it went from something that was me at the time to something that had that was a reflection of part of me that i didn't even come to understand until i was an older guy and now i'm like this thing's just so absurd. I just, I want to keep it. The other one, the one that's on

my ankle that I've been having removed, um, over the course of maybe eight or 10, um, really painful laser procedures um it's another ralph lorin logo there's a it was defunct but they brought it back the double rl ranch brand it's in it's an r it's a backwards r up against another r with an l jutting out of it that's meant to look like a cattle brand and it was like a line of like kind of rustic rugged jeans and shirts that Ralph Lauren came out with in the late 90s and I was like you know I got one polo tattoo I'd like another tattoo I really like this double RL brand and I will um let's get that on my ankle and by the, getting a tattoo on your ankle, I don't know if you know this, Emily, if you have one on there, anywhere there's bone, it's extremely painful. Where it's fat, like on my bicep, it's fine. But on the bone, it's like, it's pretty painful to get a tattoo there.

First of all, I'm glad you're man enough to admit that your biceps are made of fat. What you say there is particularly germane because Emily is thinking about getting a tattoo on a portion of her wrist that is quite bony. Is that not right? Very bony. And so, Josh, just to close out the personal narrative here, you are getting the double double rl logo removed not not because it is a brand logo which that you had tattooed to your body on a whim for the rest of your life presumably

yeah but because you gambled on the wrong brand logo and you're embarrassed that you picked one that went out of business and didn't have staying power. No, no, because I kind of felt for a little while, you know, it came back. But for a little while when it was defunct, I felt like I was carrying on some sort of cultural relic, you know, that only, you know, a few people might be aware of. They'd be like, hey, that guy remembers double RL brand and that'd be that. No, this one was just superfluous. It was unnecessary. They say that when you get a tattoo, it's kind of addictive, and you want more than one, which, by the way, dies out pretty quickly after you get that second or third or whatever.

If you just stop for a second, your tattoo addiction usually dies out pretty quick. So it's more just like, no, it was an unnecessary tattoo, and I'm grateful that there's such a thing as Groupons that my wife is willing to spring for for discount cut rate laser tattoo removal, and that you can actually get rid of a tattoo these days. So now, Emily, Josh is going to listen in as is bailiff jesse because the thing that i think ultimately will determine my judgment on this is whether or not this tattoo of a lonely tree without leaves in the cock-a-doodle area National Park of the Northern Territories

is so meaningful to you that it is worth the risk, however minor, to your forward professional career balanced against the happiness that you are going to gain, however great, from this sad,

this Christmas sadness tree that you want to put on your body. So you have the floor with no interruptions. What does this tattoo mean to you, Emily? So this place where I was, where the tree is, is in Kakadu National Park. Don't disrespect it. And it's a very ancient, very, very beautiful place in Australia. And as I was saying, I'm not a religious or particularly spiritual person, but it's the closest I felt to something bigger than myself.

And it was, I suppose, quite profound and very hard to put into words as it turns out but it's and also another interesting point is that I'm getting my sister to draw the design for me so that will add another did you travel to Kakadu National Park with her I did not. So how does she know what this tree looks like? She's seen pictures. I plan to take her there one day. And she's a very talented artist, very, very good at drawing. And so she will make a design for me that will be very beautiful. And it will be special.

Really, anything that she draws will be special too. What will this tattoo serve to remind you of by having it in this particular place? Well, I'll be able to see it, which is not the case with any of my other tattoos. And I've always wanted one that actually I can see because it's for me,, not, you know, for the world. But if you are talking about putting the tattoo on your wrist,

on the bony part of your wrist, following the direct line from your pinky finger down to where your wrist meets your hand, that's actually kind of an awkward place to view your beautiful tattoo, is it not? No, I can turn my wrist around. Well. Can you not? maybe i should be getting

some physical therapy it would be easier but would it not be easier to view your beautiful your beautiful uh reminder of your um pointlessness in the universe uh by putting it on the inside of your arm but well above your wrist, say just below the elbow? That would work too, I suppose. So why is it important that it be in a place that is visible? Well, I don't feel like I'm making a point, but it's the place that I've chosen, and so I think, you know, I just think society shouldn't have a problem with it.

And you're suggesting that you should have a right to decide what to do with your own body? Yes. Interesting. Outrageous. Interesting. Isn't that interesting? How many tattoos will you get?

Over my whole life? Yes. Oh, dozens. No, no, no. I think probably not very many more. I don't think, Josh was talking about it being an addiction. I don't think that's what it is, because I've seen those shows where people have 25 tattoos,

and I don't want to go down that road. When did you get your first tattoo? I was 24. And go down that road. When did you get your first tattoo? I was 24. And you're 28 now. Yes. And you got the feather tattoo that matches your boyfriend's tattoo two years ago. No. At a maximum.

Yeah, more recently than that. When was it? It was six months ago? No. A year ago, say. Well, there's a difference, even in Australia. Six months. It definitely wasn't a year ago.

I would go with Emily on this. All right, very good. And how many tattoos are you going to get, John? Oh, you know, just as they strike me, you know, there's no particular time frame to it. No, that's not how you get tattoos. You're not stricken by lightning and you suddenly have a tattoo. That would be good.

You know, just for as momentous events might happen, then that's when you might get a tattoo about it. Before I go into chambers to consider my decision, expert witness Josh Clark. Yes. You heard Emily's explanation for the meaning of this particular tattoo. Does that hold water for you,

even though it is not the trademark of a major multinational corporation? Yeah, I have to say, that tattoo is way more thought out than mine is. And I think that gives it a lot of, a lot of credence when you're deliberating, John. Secondly, as long as Emily thinks that, I mean, it sounds like she'll always like the tree. As long as she thinks she'll like her sister in 20 years, then this might be something to go with. I hope so.

And then I also kind of get the placement of it as well. It's kind of like, you know, it's something that you're trying to show yourself. It's for you, but you're also not ashamed of it. You're not hiding it somewhere where it's out of sight of people. Yeah, you're not a coward like Henry Rollins. Right. So, I mean, as an expert witness, I got to say I sign off on this one.

All right. I think I've heard everything I need to. I'm going to go into my chambers. I'm going to go into my chambers and consult the law books that I had tattooed on my inner thigh. I should be back in a moment to render my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. John, how are you feeling about your chances in this case now that you've heard the arguments? Well, I never thought I would have Josh Clark turn against me in a court of fake law.

But I just, I think, I wish I'd emphasized more that I'm not against the tattoo. And I just think she would still be so happy with it in a location where she's not going to have any, you know, side effects, as it were. Emily, do you sincerely believe that you can coordinate volunteers with a visible tattoo of a tree? I think I could probably do it better. Really? No, I don't think it will have no impact. Did you not also mention you're getting the tree plus a single tear under the corner of your eye?

For the volunteers you've killed? Don't joke about that. A friend last night was saying she wanted to get that. It's, yeah, that's a... Tell her it's a terrible idea. Yeah. Yeah, even I think that one's a terrible idea.

We'll have to see what Judge Hodggman has to say we'll be back in just a moment with judge john hodgman's decision after these quick announcements hello i'm your judge john hodgman the judge john hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you our members of course thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org, and they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network,

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So tattoos are very personal. And in many ways, my asking Emily what her tattoo was going to be of and what it meant to her and where it should be all mattered nothing because she ultimately has control over her body and she can do whatever she wants with it. No matter what her boyfriend of two years might think and is allowed him under australian law but i do think that it was important to hear the the the story of young josh clark and then emily to be force you to tell your story because these are things that are relatively permanent. It used to be routinely and completely permanent, but now a day's thanks to technology, relatively permanent. Because the reality is we live in a time where two things are happening. One, tattoos are much more common than they used to be, even in professional situations in certain areas of certain culture. That is to say, most urban sections of the United States, you're going to see tattoos. And when I say you're going to see tattoos, you're going to see tattoos.

People have tattoos all over their hands, all over their necks, all over their other visible upper arms, lower arms, places where they will often be seen, even in professional offices. And I gather from your description of the crazy tattoo district in your neighborhood of Melbourne that that is true in Australia as well. Although it is not true in other cultures. And John, I know that's something you brought up in evidence that you did not bring up in discussion. But for example, in Japan, what? Quickly. Well, in Japan, it's pretty full on. And you actually wouldn't be allowed to go uh to lots of places you know a gym or a pool or anywhere they're completely against it

if they see a visible tattoo they'll consider you a yakuza even if you're a young girl that's right and emily are you a member of the yakuza no not yet and no not yet and does that change your mind about whether or not you want to get a tattoo on your wrist I do really love Japan and I would love to travel there again they really will give you a hard time about it excuse me John but at this

point you wouldn't be able to you'd have to wear a full body bathing suit. Yeah. And you, John, the thing is you'd have to wear a full body bathing suit. You can't condemn her for making the same choices. If it's a question about going to a pool, chances are one or all of your tattoos would be revealed, John. Perhaps.

I could wear a T-shirt though. Right. And she could also put on a wristband going into a tattoo with the eyes that are tattooed onto your eyelids open is important right because you might just find yourself in a position like young josh clark where you realize you've made a grievous error by choosing the wrong corporate logo to tattoo on your... I can't believe that. Because the second thing that is going on in culture today is that you are now seeing older people who got tattoos when they were younger when they thought they were going to be immortal and live forever

sporting those tattoos at the gym or the pool or whatever. And it doesn't matter when anyone thinks they're Yakuza, it is clear that they are sad. Oh. Well, to have that... They're not sad. That Maroon 5 tattoo. You know, on your lower back.

I mean, tramp stamp removal is a growing industry. That would be sad. And even though there is removal available tattoo is and I speak as someone who actually does have a tattoo that is small and not regrettable can you tell us what your tattoo is

you know what I'll put a picture up on the internet because we don't have time anymore and you can all maybe we'll have a contest as people can guess what the symbolism means. But it is important to choose your tattoos very wisely and the placement of them with real forethought because it is something that you don't,

no one wants to get married in order to get divorced. And similarly, no one should get a tattoo with the feeling like, yeah, I can just get out of this later. Because it is a painful procedure, and one, a procedure that ultimately speaks of, that is removal, that ultimately speaks of ambivalence. Whereas a tattoo is a great, bold statement of permanence. And I'd like to retain for the tattoo and the art of tattoo that

permanence rather than make it seem as though it's something that you can put on and take off like a, like a, like a t-shirt. Agreed. I, I am satisfied that Emily has thought this through and has a good plan for her tattoo.

I am equally satisfied that within the world in which she works, it is not going to be as scandalous as John tattoo. I am equally satisfied that within the world in which she works, it is not going to be as scandalous as John fears. I appreciate, but I'm not scared straight by John's story about how you'll be immediately put in prison if you go to Japan and someone says you're not good. I believe that there are reasonable ways to cover the tattoo if the situation warrants. And I also do not see any evidence that Emily is going into any of her tattoos rashly, even though honestly getting a tattoo to match your unmarried boyfriend is perhaps the most rash act you can do. It seems like you two like each other, and I don't even hate that. So clearly, at least one of you is thoughtful. So, and finally, there is tattoo removal. Should Emily decide to go into a profession that would

truly frown upon our tattoo such that it hurt her professional circumstances, she could at need have it removed. And because it is in a place where it seems to be as painful going on as it would be coming off, it's all a wash anyway. Thus, I mark Emily with my Judge John Hodgman brand of approval. This is the sound of a gavel. I said Lydia. He said Lydia. I said Lydia. He said Lydia. I said Lydia.

We said Lydia. La la. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. How are you feeling, Emily? Pretty good. I think my next tattoo will be of John Hodgman's face. And then the one after that?

Yeah. There were two acceptable answers. One was Jesse Thorne's face. One was the mean joke answer, which is Josh Clark's face. Oh, no, definitely Joshark's face oh no definitely josh clark's face oh i wish i had that gavel right now john how are you feeling wow thank you oh sorry not too bad you know after hearing about the ralph floren tattoo this this one that that Emily's talking about seems far more reasonable.

It could be worse. It could be worse. But yeah, I guess it's not the end of the world. I really thought I'd win. Oh, man. We appreciate you taking the time to be on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thanks a lot, Jessie. Thank you.

Hello, teachers and faculty. Thanks a lot, Jessie. Thank you. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Hi, Judge Hodgman. Sorry, I was just having this tattoo of the Banana Republic Jeep coming out of my stomach removed. Do you think I should get this Theodore Roosevelt era Abercrombie and Fitch tattoo removed? No, that's a classic. That's going to come back around. Oh, thank goodness. Well, while we're waiting, should we clear the docket?

Please. We're waiting for the Abercrombie and Fitch logo to come back around? Yeah, well, for Abercrombie and Fitch to once again be a legendary sportsman's outfitter rather than clothing for high school jerks. Yes, I'll set the timer for five minutes. Here's something from Scott. I'm bringing a case against my wife, Hannah, regarding the declawing of our cat. We adopted Wendy about five months ago, and this otherwise wonderful cat

has mercilessly shredded some of our admittedly ugly old furniture. Hannah and I agreed on declawing if the cat tears up other furniture. A friend left a chair at our apartment for brief storage, and the cat went to town on it. Hannah claims this does not count, and that the original agreement was for other furniture that belonged personally to us. May I declaw this mostly lovely cat for the sake of honoring our contract and the well-being of our home? Well, this is a very controversial issue, whether or not to declaw cats. I will say that my mother, when she was alive, got two cats and

had them declawed on their front paws. And a lot of people find this to be mutilation and traumatic to the cats. All I can say is that the cats did not seem any more bat feces, neurotic, and crazy than any other cat that I've ever met that does have its claws. And they would do an adorable, what some people would think is a tragic thing which is go up to uh uh the the legs of couches or the ends of uh of sofas and just rub their paws along them gently as though trying to scratch but getting no purchase whatsoever but then i'm a monster and i enjoy seeing cats being humiliated. I think that there are two issues here. One is whether or not you want to mutilate your cat.

Two is whether or not your wife, Hannah, is going to honor an agreement that you made. Hannah's attempt to get out of the agreement on the technicality that it was not your own furniture that got clawed is absurd and indeed bully within the realm of your contract for you to enforce the declawing of your cats. That said, the fact that Hannah was pushed to utter deception in this case suggests that she feels very strongly that she wants your cat to not be declawed. And I have to say that whether, though I think that declawing is acceptable in certain cases,

and my understanding is the earlier the better in the cat's life so that it does not become totally defenseless without understanding what's going on, I would always err on the side

of avoiding unnecessary surgery if there is any doubt whatsoever. And in this case, I would say don't get your cat declawed. You may take it to the vet and have its claws capped with rubber that will prevent the damage and do that once a month or so. It's actually pretty effective. And I don't know how it stacks up in terms of cost, but it's amusing to see your cat walk around with big rubber things on its paws.

Here's something from Steve. On a recent episode, Judge and Jury, Judge committed the popular usage mistake of saying reticence when the correct word is reluctance. Oh, Steve, you're right. reticence when the correct word is reluctance. Oh, Steve, you're right. I'm sorry if this seems pedantic, but the judge did recently correct a defendant who said feel badly instead of feel bad, so I don't think my criticism is misplaced. I seek an injunction against the judge and all humankind to refrain from using and popularizing this mistake and other increasingly common ones, this mistake. And other increasingly common ones, like sneak peek, hear hear, and beg the question in place of raise the question. Well, first of all, Steve, you are a pedant of the highest order, but I have to accept your ruling. Reticence does not mean reluctance. In fact, reticence means the

state or quality of being reticent. And reticent means not hesitant or reluctant, but shy and retiring. Inclined to be silent or uncommunicative? Exactly so. So I was wrong. And I will accept your judgment, Steve. I also agree with you, Steve, that one should not say here, here spelled H-E-R-E, H-E-R-E. I guess I should say no one should not write it because if you say it, no one's going to know the difference. It is here, H-E-A-R, here, H-E-A-R.

And indeed, beg the question does not mean raise the question. Indeed, beg the question does not mean raise the question. Begging the question is a very specific logical fallacy, which is attempting to prove a premise by restating the premise. And I might even have that right. But I am with you on that, Steve, even though it's a losing battle. I don't know what you're talking about with regard to sneak peek. So I will have to look that up.

And listeners, if you want to let me know, you can always email me at Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. But Steve, why don't you take a rest in the pedantry department? There are plenty of them out there. Well, that's all our time for this week's Judge John Hodgman podcast. If you've got a case that you'd like us to decide, or if you know someone who has a case that you think should be decided by Judge John Hodgman, go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHo. MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. You will find a helpful case submission form. The judge does review all of your cases. If you have thoughts about the show, please comment on our Facebook page or get at us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. MaximumFun.org is on Twitter at MaxFunHQ. If you want to name a future case, it's easy.

Follow us on Twitter and submit your suggestion when we ask. This week's case was named by Molly Walsh. Thanks, Molly. Thanks, Molly. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all the folks

who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at gosuperego.com. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com.

If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts about the show, join the conversation on our forum at Forum.MaximumFun.org and our Facebook group at Facebook.com slash Judge John Hodgman. We'll see you online and next time right here on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. MaximumFun.org

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