Judge John Hodgman - Persimmon to Approach the Branch

Episode Date: June 11, 2025

While on a drive, Vera wanted to stop and pick some persimmons from a random tree. Matt said NO! Since they don’t know the tree owners, those persimmons are FORBIDDEN FRUIT. But Vera really wants those persimmons! They’ve been holding a grudge against Matt ever since. Who’s right? Who’s wrong?We are on TikTok and YouTube! Follow us on both @judgejohnhodgmanpod! Follow us on Instagram @judgejohnhodgman!Thanks to reddit user u/yumdundundun for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at reddit.com/r/maximumfun! Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Join at $5 a month at maximumfun.org/join!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, persimmon to approach the branch. Matt brings the case against his fiancee Vera. While on a drive, Vera wanted to stop and pick some persimmons from a random tree. Matt said, no, they don't know the owners of that tree. Those persimmons are forbidden fruit. But Vera really wants those persimmons.

They've been holding a grudge against Matt ever since. Who's right, who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. Podcasts ingestion should be the treatment of choice, considering that fewer endoscopies and accessories are needed and patients spend fewer days at the hospital.

Moreover, availability, low cost, rapid way of action, simplicity and administration and safety renders podcasts a cost-effective therapy for gastric phytobesowars. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in. Matt and Vera, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God or whatever?

I do. Yes, I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's never had my mother's famous persimmon pudding? Yes, I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, thank you indeed. I have never ingested a single persimmon in my life, so.

Wow. I should recuse myself, but I'm not going to, because we've got a podcast to make, and as you recently heard podcast ingestion is a cost effective therapy for gastric phytobesowars. Matt and Vera, you may be seated. Indeed. I see that you are already very comfortably seated at your studio over there. Where, where do we find you in this world? Uh, we're in Santa Cruz, California, Santa Cruz, where the options for in-studio recording are,

would you like to sit with your feet up in this nice love seat? Just lie down on the floor on a mat like it's a daycare, correct? Yes, there's also the hammock in the trees option. I forgot about the hammock in the trees, Jesse Thorne. We should explain that the love seat is in a yurt. Yeah, that's true.

To be clear, the love seat's in a yurt. Yeah, that's true. To be clear, love seats in a year. You're absolutely right. I apologize for painting the wrong visual picture. If you'd like the correct visual picture, go to our YouTube channel at judge John Hodgman pod. Make sure to subscribe, like share, et cetera, et cetera. But now I have delayed justice long enough. Matt and Vera, you heard my obscure cultural reference.

For an immediate summary judgment in one of yours' favors, can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this courtroom? I'm gonna say it is from a medical journal. Hmm. Vera, good guess. Any guesses as to which medical journal it might be? Journal of Medicine.

Journal of Medicine. Arguably the classic. Famous. Yeah, that's my jam. What about you? Yeah, Matt, you don't have to groan at my joke. Thank you very much. Sorry, John. That's your job. Yeah, that's my job. Uh, my prepared guest was William Carlos Williams. Um, that's clearly not that.

So I'm going to say, feel so bad. I ate those cold persimmons that were in the fridge. Exactly. Next time move faster. John, who shall say you are not the happy genius of your household. That's right. So I'm going to go with a blog post on Goop. A blog post on Goop.

All guesses are wrong. Thanks for giving us the chance to buzz market Goop a little. I'm so sorry. Yeah, exactly. A phytobesowar, do you have any idea what a phytobesowar is, Vera or Matt? More specifically, a specific kind of phytobesowar, do you have any idea what a phytobesowar is Vera or Matt? More specifically, a specific kind of phytobesowar, a diast, sorry, a diaspirobezoar?

Is it something in the stomach? It is. A bezoar is an accumulation of foreign matter that is not digested in the stomach and it just sits around there and often causes, shall we say, problems of the gut. A phytobesoar is one that is made up of organic matter often from a fruit and specifically a diospirobezoar. And yes, I am looking very closely at the Wikipedia page to make sure that I'm saying it correctly. Dios pyrobezoar is specifically a bezoar that is caused by eating unripe persimmons. Did you know that Vera? You love persimmons so much. I do love persimmons and I did not know that.

Here's what it says. Unripe persimmons contain the soluble tannin shibuol, which upon contact with a weak acid polymerizes in the stomach, forming a gluey coagulum, a quote unquote food ball or phytobesowar that can affix with other stomach matter. They are often very hard and almost woody in consistency. And please listeners to judge John Hodgman, Matt Vera, Jesse Thorn, and all of the J squad don't Google image search this. This is gross stuff. And I'm here to tell you that according to a medical journal, Vera, specifically elementary pharmacology and therapeutics, APNT.

Specifically, the issue that was released 17 December 2012 in an article written by S.D. Ladas and D. Kemberoglu that you should not ingest podcasts to rid yourself of a phytobesowar. That will do you no good. I switched a word. Any guess as to what APNT suggests is actually a pretty good and pretty accessible, how do they say, available, low cost, rapid,

and simple in administration method for dissolving at least partially a phytobesowar? Taking fiber? Fiber, okay. I'm gonna guess black tea. I actually, Matt, you were closer in that case. The name of the article is systematic review. Coca-Cola can effectively dissolve gastric phytobesowars

as a first line treatment. That's true in 84% of phytobesowars, according to this, Coca-Cola is all you need. However, these Dio's pyrobezoars that come from persimmons are so hard and woody in their food ballism that only 24% of the time is Coca-Cola effective as a first line of treatment. After you do drink some Coca-Cola, and I'm hoping Pepsi and Moxie get their chance here too, you do drink some Coca-Cola, and I'm hoping Pepsi and Moxie get their chance here too. Because I'm not trying to buzz market one kind of cola,

one kind of brain tonic, but I believe that you can still get rid of a persimmon food ball. You drink some Coke and then there's some other, there's some more intense treatments that you can receive as well. Judge Hodgman, this episode has not yet been released. I have received 24 emails from Gastropedants.

Yeah. I am pretty sure it is pronounced Beezor. Beezor? Beezor, B-E-Z-O-A-R, Beezor. Well, thank you, Gastropedants, but I'm not going back and re-recording all of that. No, too much. Because it's too much.

And I would also rob you of your fun of correcting me. Honestly, it's your fault for knowing how to pronounce Beezor-pedants. Yeah, exactly. It's on you. Where were you yesterday when I haven't even thought of any of this? For that matter, where were you two hours ago when I hadn't even thought of any of this? For that matter, where were you two hours ago when I hadn't even thought of any of this? And where are you right now?

In the future? Pull yourselves together out there, Gastroped ants. Get in the present, stop living in the future. Anyway, nice to see you again, Matt and Vera. We of course met in person after our show in San Francisco, right? Last year? Yes. Not last year. This year, earlier this year when we were there. Earlier this year. Yeah. For SketchFest. Yeah, exactly. And you came by

and, and you presented us both with some terrific mugs. You can see Jesse Thorne supping from his banana slug mug that you made because you are both graduates of UC Santa Cruz, just like Jesse Thorne and Jennifer Marmer, is that right? Yes, we are graduates from UCSC and we're also both now grad students at UCSC. Wow. And you're living there and that now would you agree with me that the campus of UCSC is the university campus most likely to resemble the cover of a 1970 science fiction novel? Oh, in fact, so much so that it has been the library was the set of, I don't know, all

of that brutalist architecture is often used for spooky office buildings in dystopian TV shows. Judge Hatchman, I was an RA for two years at UC Santa Cruz and I had four students who were Ewoks. Really? Yub, yub. Yub, yub. Is that a true story?

It's true. It's absolutely true. It's not made up. Ewoks are real. Brutalist architecture in the Redwoods is delightfully, as you say, Matt, dystopian in science fiction, eh? Matt, what was the name of the show? Do you remember?

It was Devs. Devs. Starring friend of the show, Nick Offerman, among other many talented people. Yeah. Well, welcome to the show proper. It's lovely to see you both again. And yet what brings you here is a dispute. Matt, you bring the case. Is that correct? Yes, that is correct. Now, in addition to both being alums of UC Santa Cruz,

you are a fiance to one another, you are engaged to be married, is that right? Yes. Yes, that is correct. We are getting married this March. Oh, congratulations in advance, that's lovely. And Matt, tell me about how you and Vera met. So speaking of being an RA.

Yes, that's right. Jesse, were you not an RA at UC Santa Cruz yourself? I was indeed. And in fact, I was Jordan Morris's RA. Jordan's freshman year, my sophomore year of college. Then we were both RAs, my junior and his sophomore year. When you were his RA, did you like bring down the hammer on all his antics?

Absolutely. All his cute, all his cute curly headed antics. So Matt, you met at UC Santa Cruz. We met at UC Santa Cruz. I was a transfer student and at the end of my, technically was my junior year, although it was my first year on campus. I applied for and was hired as a resident assistant at, um,

Porter Kresge colleges, um, at UC Santa Cruz. And during spring training, uh, uh, I, Vera and I sort of met in path spring training for what? Sorry. So, uh, after being hired as a resident assistant, there was a Were you recruited to UC Santa Cruz as an athlete? Yes. No, the fight and banana slugs. No. Yeah.

Uh, no, there, there was a period of Were you the top frolf player at the University of Nebraska? Uh, no, unfortunately. The top frolf player at the University of Nebraska is the 475th best froth player at UC Santa Clara. By the way, they should start a chain called Top Froth to compete with Topgolf. And what are you studying now as graduate students there at UCSC? So we're both psychology PhD candidates actually, as of this Friday.

I'll vote for you. Thank you, I appreciate it. I studied developmental psychology and my focus is on how young children learn about science through everyday contexts like parent-child interactions. And I studied kids usually in the three to six age range. Well, luckily you don't have to worry about that anymore because we've eliminated science. Yeah.

Big grants got cut, but I'm still going. It's okay. I'm still going strong. I taught my children science by releasing insects in their beds. Now that's an everyday context for science. That's for sure. Also gets them out of bed early in their beds. Now that's an everyday context for science. That's for sure. It also gets them out of bed early in the morning. Matt, are you still going strong?

What are you up to there? I am. Yes. So in less than one week, I will be proposing my dissertation. So also in the psychology department, and I study music perception and cognition, focusing on mental imagery of music, especially, focusing on mental imagery of music, especially involuntary mental imagery of music, which is a fancy way of saying

when you have a song stuck in your head, I study all sorts of stuff relative to that. Like I have the video for Aha's Take On Me stuck behind my left eyeball since 1987. Yes, exactly. eyeball since 1987. Uh huh. Yes, exactly. This dispute regarding Persimmons started early in your romantic relationship.

Matt, what happened? It was extremely early. So our relationship, our anniversary is December 1st of 2019. Yeah. On Christmas Eve of 2019. So we had been together for about three weeks. Right. We were driving to my parents' house. Whoa.

Getting very serious for three weeks. Um, and, uh, to spend Christmas Eve and Christmas day with my family. Okay. And we were driving through a, an area in Gilroy that's slightly rural. It's like a little mini wine kind of area. Okay. And we were driving through a an area in Gilroy that's slightly rural. It's like a little mini wine California area. Yeah. California. And as we were driving, we drove past a farm ish property. Then Vera noticed a persimmon tree that was full of persimmons and asked if we could stop and knock on their door and ask for some. Asked you if you could stop, not, right, okay. Didn't ask the owners yet.

Yeah, I was driving, Vera was in the passenger seat. And I don't remember exactly what I said. Vera's meaningful grunt is noted. I don't remember exactly what I said. I think what I said was maybe on the way back. Vera, what did Matt say? Do you remember? On the way back. That's what. Oh, so, okay, Matt, you got it right. You remember correctly. Well, John. Oh, right. There was one word missing. Thank you. Thank you, Gastropedans.

Maybe. You said maybe on the way back or you think you said maybe on the way back, or you think you said maybe on the way back. Vera took that to mean, we will stop on the way back and I will get my persims. Correct? Yes. Correct. And then we proceeded to have a pretty good time with my family for Christmas, considering, you know, standard family awkwardness. And then the next day, which was, it would have been either, I think it would have been late on Christmas evening. We were driving past back home and I did not stop or remind Vera about the persimmon tree. I just continued to drive and at a certain point Vera said, wait, the persimmons.

And I said, oh no. Yeah. Matt intentionally and cruelly drove past it. And that was. Matt, was it dark out at this point? Neither of us remember super clearly, but it would have been after dinner. So it must have been. It was not dark. I think it might've been the next day.

We might have been the next day. Yeah, it was not dark. I think it might've been the next day. We might've, might've been the next day. Yeah. It was light outside. So you're not, you're not counting on the, you are not counting on the dark of night. Hide the Persimmons from Vera and hope that Vera wouldn't remember. I w the second half of that only. And Vera, at what point did you remember the Persimmons? How far away were you from them at that point? Couldn't you make Matt turn around and go get them?

It was maybe a minute or so. It wasn't really only that far. It was like pretty close that I said, wait, I think we passed them. And Matt said, yeah. Matt, did you consciously withhold information in order to not stop and get persimmons? Yes or no. As, oh God, yes or no. Yes or no? Oh god, yes or no.

Yes or no. Yes. Yes. Thank you, Matt. I appreciate your honesty. What do you have against persimmons? I have also never had a persimmon in my life, by the way. Okay. So, I have nothing. All right. Then I find in your favor.

Thank you. Yeah. Well, you said yourself at the beginning that you've never tasted one, so I just want to say we're on the same team there. Yeah. No, no, no. I find in favor of your complete lack of curiosity and your desire to maintain your ignorance. Thank you. Yes.

Uh, no. So I have nothing against Persimmons. Uh, I do have, I think, uh, a, an anxiety, uh, or a trepidation around stopping at a random neighbor's house who I've never met on holiday. Honestly, this was not even a neighbor, was it? I mean, this is just someone's house you were passing on the way. True, yeah. I mean, they're an extended neighbor.

Matt, this was Gilroy. You know what I mean? You're not one of these garlic people. Exactly. Right. Yeah. This was Gilroy. You're not neighbors with these garlic people. Exactly. Right. Yeah. This was Gilroy. You're not neighbors with anyone in Gilroy. Missing Gilroy on the road, by the way, is impossible because of the overwhelming stench of the town of Gilroy.

Because it's a garlic town? Is that what I'm taking to understand? It's the garlic town. It's America's number one garlic town, home of one of the most legendary agricultural festivals in the United States, the Gilroy Garlic Festival. And it truly, I mean, year round in my experience, I don't know when garlic comes to fruition, but my experience is I have never driven

through the city of Gilroy and not been overwhelmed by the smell of garlic. Yeah. Wow. Oh, I want to go to Gilroy now. It's kind of amazing, honestly. I mean, you know, garlic is a powerful smell. It's not an entirely unpleasant one. And you know what else I'm going to do when I'm there?

I'm going to steal some persimmons. You can't spell persimmon without permission. Correct. Almost. Yeah. Yeah, that's how spelling works. Ewmon without permission. Correct. Almost. Yeah. Yeah, that's how spelling works. Eguards are real. Exactly. Looking forward to hearing from the pedants on that one.

It was Christmas Eve. It was at least on the way there later in the evening, I believe. It was also a little bit more than three weeks into a new relationship. And I almost effectively. Well, that's exactly the time when you want to show your brand new partner that you're a coward. No, yes, exactly. But I was, I, to be fair, I was focused primarily on the cowardice that was aimed towards how is this interaction with my family over the next major holiday and my new partner going to. Okay. Okay. You were distracted by, there was a lot. There were a lot of

high anxiety Elements swirling through your brain. Yes Would you feel better if Vera just hopped out of the car grab some persimmons and then maybe you wouldn't even like stop You'd roll slowly as they got out of the car grab some and then they jump back in again Would that be better for you? Or worse? Worse. Worse, okay, yeah. You said this was a farm-like property. Yes, farm-ish, I believe is the term you used.

Sure, yeah. Did you believe this to be a commercial persimmon plant? No, I did not. Just a persimmon tree on the property, but close enough to the road that you would be able to see it, right, Vera? Yes, correct. It was just like a house with a persimmon tree out front. Do you think, and how long ago was this?

2019? Yes, correct. 2019. Do you think it's still there? Do you ever go to Google Street View to relive this moment in your relationship? I don't, but there are other ways in which I frequently relive this moment in our relationship. Right. Well, this is the dispute, right, Matt? Because here's the thing. This is, Vera is not the one bringing you to court for denying them the persimmon treat that they wanted.

You are bringing Vera to court for denying them the persimmon treat that they wanted. You are bringing Vera to court. Why? What's the, what damages are you suffering from here? So this happened as, as has been mentioned, uh, round five and a half years ago. Yeah. I have apologized several times. I knew this was going to happen. I have apologized several times.

And I, I'm just going to say now I fully admit my behavior on that day is not behavior that I would argue should be repeated. I should, and I think have in a lot of ways gotten better about, um, saying what I mean and not just saying what I think they want to hear and then hoping that they forget. However, the grudge and yet the grudge remains. How does the grudge manifest itself? Is now a good time to talk about our cat? I don't see that it's ever a bad time. Okay.

So, uh, we actually, his gotcha day was yesterday, right? Or two days ago. So we have the gotcha day cat. What is the name of this cat? The cat's name is persimmon. Puh. He is an orange tabby. He mostly goes by Percy, but his full God given name is Persimmon.

Yes. I am looking at exhibit A of the evidence you submitted. It's available on our social medias, our Instagram page. And if you're watching on YouTube, but judge John, you can see it right now. This is Percy's adoption photo. This is the photo that they posted. Did you adopt Percy from a calendar? I don't know why they post him this way for his shelter photo, but I saw it online and I said, we, we need to go get this cat. And not all of them are using this like glamour shot set.

This is just the San Jose animal shelter, but for some reason, a handful of them had this like. Yeah. Percy is posed between two bouquets of roses for those who are not looking at this right at the moment. Jesse. I feel like they took this photograph of this cat at the same Sears Portrait Studio in Capitola, where Jordan and I took our first publicity picture. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Now, Percy has grown, obviously, very little kitten in this first photo. In the second photo, we now see that Percy is gigantic and is larger than a house. Or is a grown cat standing on a doll piece of doll furniture or something? What's going on here? Yeah.

So this is a, I think it's actually like a little makeup kit. Technically I got it for Ross. It's this little tiny couch. I got it for our lizard and And she loves to lounge on it, our lizard Magnus beardsides. We're going to get to her in just a moment. Yes. Yeah. And when we got Percy, I had posed him on that couch and he used to be able to just sit on it fully. And then just the other day, I tried to get him on the couch and that was the photo that was taken.

This is a miniature couch that is designed to be seating for one bearded dragon, specifically Magnus Beardside's, which is exhibit B in our chain of evidence here. And we're gonna take a look at it here in the studio. There's Magnus Beardsides wearing a crocheted top hat. Yes, I crocheted her top hat. Yeah.

Oh my God. What is this life that people lead in Santa Cruz? Here, I've got a question. Four years I live there, Jennifer. I still don't know what's going on, who these people are. Vis-a-vis this life that people lead in Santa Cruz or elsewhere, I have a theory about it. I'm gonna put it to the test.

Vera, Matt, do you have children? No. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. In Santa Cruz, So I am, yeah. In Santa Cruz, our unicycles are our children. And our slack lines are our nieces and nephews.

This is Magnus Beardsides, a bearded dragon. Now are all of your animals as orange as a persimmon? No, that's, I don't want to say it's a coincidence. Because Magnus appears fairly orange here. Yes, so we call her Maggie. We thought she was a boy when we got her, and so that's where the name, and then we just pivoted to Maggie. But yeah, she's extremely orange. She actually has blue spots on her back that you can't really see in that image, but she arrived before Percy did.

So that was more just sort of a coincidence. Percy is the one who was explicitly the moment of Vera finally getting their persimmon from me. Right. So Percy, it was not coincidence that Percy was named Persimmon. This came after the Persimmon conflict and you named Percy to be a constant reminder to Matt of Matt's betrayal. Correct? Yes, that's correct. Initially with that shelter photo of him posed between the roses, the name that they picked for him was Racecar, which is also a very

good name. Pretty good. There is one other animal in your life Racecar, which is also a very good name. Pretty good. There is one other animal in your life, right, who is not orange, correct? Correct. Correct. Now let's give Milo their due. Yeah, that's Milo. Milo, excuse me.

So he is the most beautiful blue-eyed boy. I got him my freshman year of undergrad and he lived with me in the dorms of Porter College. Wow. Yep. For three years in the dorms and then one year in the Porter apartments. And then I did a master's at the University of Hawaii. So he moved with me to Hawaii for two years and then he moved back with me and then Matt adopted him as a step-son. I would have had to turn Milo in as a Porter College RA. He had all of his paperwork because I was also an RA so I knew what I had to do to get him in.

What was the paperwork that gave Milo an exemption? Was Milo a service animal? He was a support animal, yes. Okay, gotcha. You ever bring him down to that koi pond and let him hunt koi? No, but I have had him out on the leash in the grass in front of Porter. This is my slow clap for all people who have ever put a cat on a leash. Especially those who have done so with success. It's something that I've always wanted to be able to do and so far it's eluded me.

Good for you. Judge Hodgman, big time Gene O'Neill, original co-host of The Sound of Young America, now bulls eye with Jesse Thorne. I bought a kettle grill at some point in our junior year of, uh, uh, UC Santa Cruz, Jean was also an RA, very bad one, and we used to just go to the Safeway in Santa Cruz, buy a giant palette of, uh, beef patties and just cook cheeseburgers for anyone who wanted one, have an omelet quad, it was great.

This is, you know what, you know what I'm gonna do, Jesse Thorne, I'm thinking about this very seriously. Thinking about going back to school, Rodney Dangerfield style. Yeah, I wanna see you dive in, baby. Yeah, I think they're gonna relaunch the back to school franchise with me re-enrolling as a freshman at Yale. Do you think they want like a Ivy League back to school?

I'd go back to school if I got to make out with Hot Lips Hoolahan. There you go. Percy Persimmon is the most germane pet of the Menagerie you've shown us because Percy represents the living grudge that you hold. And before we get into the living grudge, I just wanna ask you a question, Vera. I've never had a persimmon. What is it about these Gilroy street persimmons

that you cannot stop thinking about? What's a persimmon like? Hold on, John. You don't know from persimmons. I'm gonna have to ask a really important question of Vera before they answer your question. Were they Fuyu or Hachia persimmons? You know, from a distance, I don't think I could tell,

but I prefer the ones that are the flattened ones rather than the softer ones. What is a Fuyu persimmon versus a flatulent one? What? So there's two types of persimmons. There are some that are kind of shaped like an acorn that have more of a meaty flesh to them. They're soft. They also need to be overripe in order for them to not hurt you as you eat them because otherwise your mouth will feel numb and tingly.

I'll tell you another thing, you're going to get a beezer. Yeah. You're going to get a beezer in your stomach. Those are generally hachia. In the United States or in California, generally there are two types of persimmons, hachia and fuyu. Hachia persimmons get really mushy

and then are primarily used for cooking. That's what my mom would use for her famous persimmon pudding. Okay. Well, the fuyu is diaspiros cacchi. The fuyu persimmon pudding. Okay. Well, the Fuyu is Diaspiroskaki, the Fuyu persimmon. That's where you get the diaspora in the Beezer nomenclature. Thanks, Gastric Pet Ants.

Which, so I'm still not clear which one you like better though, Vera. Which one does Vera like better, Jesse? The Fuyu persimmon is the one that Vera is describing preferring. Yeah. That one is squatter in shape. Right. It's not an elongated acorn shape,

but rather sort of like a squat apple. Okay. And they can be eaten like an apple. So they can be eaten while still pretty crunchy. And they have the flavor of. A gentle spiced, appley pear kind of flavor. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a subtle and, uh, almost reminiscent of, of, of cinnamon flavor, a warm flavor.

Vera, would you concur with Jessie's description? Yes. Would you add any other, how long have you been enjoying persimmons in your life? Are they your favorite fruit or just one of many? I guess maybe they are my favorite. I never really thought about that, but maybe they're also, maybe they're one of my favorites,

but they're very, they feel very special because they're not really available year round. And I think I first tried them in art class as a child, like maybe elementary school age. My art teacher used to cut up fruits for us after. Oh, wow. That's very nice. Yeah, she was really nice. Persimmon, definitely a very classic still life fruit.

Yes. It's a very beautiful looking fruit for sure. And, you know, I'm someone who doesn't like fruit unless it is absolutely perfect, but I'm intrigued. I'll tell you what, if I were ever driving through Gilroy, I would stop and ask permission. May I pick a persimmon from your persimmon tree? Me personally. Honestly though, maybe I wouldn't because I'm also like you,

Matt. I'm shy. So I guess I'm still in the still undecided on this case. Yeah, I did want to share that when I was younger, we lived in a house that had a grapefruit tree in the front and we had people who would sometimes stop and ask us if they could have some. And how did you feel about that, as a family and as a young person? We always let them have some. We always had way too many.

Yeah, as someone with three grapefruit trees at their house, my dream is to have someone come take the grapefruits off the grapefruit tree. Exactly. Because otherwise I have to do it. Likefruits off the grapefruit tree. Exactly. Because otherwise I have to do it. Like I do it by the bag full. I'll just go out there with the picker and pick five bags of giant grapefruits

and just hang them from my fence until one of the many old ladies in my neighborhood comes and takes a bag. This tree in Gilroy that you passed, when you picture it in your mind's eye, in your memory, was it one lone persimmon or indeed was it heavy with many persimmons? Was it gravid with persimmons? VIRGINIA It was heavy with persimmons. It was like orange with persimmons.

JARED So like ultimately you were basically offering your arborist services. VIRG services. Yes. Have you ever driven past this, this, this persimmon tree since 2019? You know, I'm not sure. I think usually when we visit Matt's parents, we go a different way, which I don't know if that is intentional or not. Yeah, I think it probably is. Yeah, Matt is the driver usually.

Yeah, I'm not sure because now when we visit his parents, uh, he puts a sack over my head. Spins me around three times. I have an actual answer for that. Well, I'd like to hear an actual answer. The first time that first year I came and picked you up from your mom's house in the East Bay. And so we came up one-on-one and cut across that way. Um, but every year since then that we visited, we visited from Santa Cruz. And so we go over Mount Madonna.

So is that a yes or no? You don't drive past the persimmon tree? We do not drive past the persimmon tree, but not because I am intentionally avoiding it. So aside from Percy the cat, how does Matt, how does Vera keep the grudge alive and how does it make you feel? And interestingly, I think Percy has maybe, I don't know if this is the right use of the word ironic, maybe ironically or unexpectedly. Oh my God, I just got so many emails. I know.

I'm so sorry. You haven't even finished the sentence yet. Yeah, we just got 45 emails from the movie Reality Bites. Yeah, exactly. So I'll just use the word unexpectedly has actually maybe tamped down on the grudge a little bit. But prior to that, it would be, you know, anytime if we're in the grocery store at a farmer's market or a restaurant,

anytime we see a persimmon, there would always be sort of a knowing look and a hmm, right. Sort of sort of a knowing look and a hmm, sort of, sort of a thing. Uh, it's playful. Um, and yet there is a little bit of a, of a genuine sense of like, Oh gosh, am I, am I ever gonna get out from under this? Um, if we've learned anything in our years of making this podcast, Matt, from our commenters and emailers, it's any playfulness between people who love each other is hidden toxicity. Right. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm sure that it's playful, but on the other

hand, how does it make you feel, Matt? There is a little bit of a sense of needing to be a little extra guarded. And because I don't want to do something that will create a new grudge. Are there any examples of other things you've done quote unquote wrong, Matt, that have carried over as grudges in your relationship. Vera, you're also welcome to answer. No. So I think bringing up the RA thing again is a good example. There's a lot of, even the way Vera tells a story about how over and over again, anytime Vera said anything during training, Matt would pipe in and say, well, that's not how we did it. And I honestly don't remember

would pipe in and say, well, that's not how we did it. And I, I, I honestly don't remember any of those times. And I think there's only one that I remember explicitly being close to what they're describing. Um, and so I think there is a sense to, I'm, I'm going to be real cautious about using this word, exaggerate, um, and, uh, uh, for example, going back to the cats, right, if Percy tends to sleep at Vera's feet, every once in a while, Percy will settle in at my feet at night. And Vera gets legitimately upset about it and starts to say things like Percy never

sleeps with me anymore. And Percy and I don't have a bond anymore. So you're thinking that the way, the best way for you to defend yourself in this case is to accuse Vera of exaggerating their position. Yes. And telling lies. Yes. Huh. No.

Did you consult a lawyer or just a, or just the Manosphere? I didn't know I was allowed to do any of those things. You can do whatever you want. Please do consult the Manosphere because we could really stand some new listeners. And my understanding is that's how you become a popular podcast now. Yeah. Yikes. My understanding is that's how you become a popular podcast now. Yeah. Yikes.

So when Vera makes these jokes, these pointed little barbs, do you have difficulty taking them as jokes? I think you know Vera harbors this long held anger about the Persimmons. Well, no, I mean, I think if to the extent that I do have difficulty taking them as jokes, I think that's more of a reflex of me problem, not of your problem. But I think I do. Well, I know, but it does sound like you're confirming

that you do have difficulty accepting them as jokes. I think sometimes I do, yeah. What I think is kind of lovely about your teasing is that it is built out of affection. When you are in the supermarket and you see those proof Simmons though, do you acknowledge that you give Matt a look going like, you've still, I'm still not over the fact that you betrayed me or however it is you express your displeasure. Yes, I do do that. What would it take for you to not do that anymore?

Yes, I do do that. What would it take for you to not do that anymore? I guess a ruling from a judge on the radio to tell me not to. Would a fake judge on a podcast suffice? Yes, I'll take it. Obviously an order from a fake judge in a podcast is incredibly binding. Everyone understands that.

Yes. That would prohibit you from doing that behavior, but it would have no bearing on your feelings. So aside from that, what would it take internally to feel you no longer have to give Matt guff over the persimmons? Is there some way to heal the wound? You know, maybe we do have to go back.

Maybe we have to go back and give it a shot, but I guess I hadn't really considered actually getting over it. Would you be disappointed if you got over it? Yeah, maybe a little bit. I kind of like holding it over Matt. That actually reminds me. So yesterday we were, so Vera mentioned at the beginning that they have recently successfully

passed their qualifying exams and have advanced from PhD student to PhD candidate. Congratulations. What that means is that over the last six to eight months, they have been working incredibly, incredibly hard every single day. And yesterday, I remember you saying like, something feels off. Everything is good. And it's like, oh yeah, no, this is, this is what not working 12 hours a day feels like.

Yeah. And I just reminds me of what you asked about, you know, would, would, would you be disappointed to not have the grudge anymore? I could see that because you, it's almost like you're disappointed to not be overworked, you know, it sort of feels analogous. Yeah. But you suffer the, the to not be overworked. Yeah. You know, it sort of feels analogous. Yeah. But you suffer the, the consequence of the overwork viewer. I mean, I'm sure there's certain blowback for Matt, but like

Matt suffers the grudge, like Matt, Matt, Matt, you feel bad, right? The grudge makes you feel bad. A little bit. Yeah. Because it reminds you of a time when you did, I think we can all acknowledge the wrong thing. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Well, I think we can all acknowledge the wrong thing. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Well, I don't want you to keep feeling bad. No, you do. That's fun for you. That's what we just established pretty, pretty clearly. Or maybe I, maybe we didn't establish that. Matt, when you were being trained the second time to be an RA and you, you don't remember piping up with, that's not how we were trained to do it over the summer as often as Vera remembers it. Do you, do you remember doing it?

I remember one specific interaction where I, I don't remember what led up to this, but I do acknowledge that I must have said something where I asked Vera, Oh, well, isn't it? I said something like, isn't such and such also true? And they were like, Nope, it's not. And please stop challenging me on that stuff. Yeah, Vera. And I was right. And it was very like, how did you feel when Vera said that to you? I

appropriately chastised. Well, yeah, you were chastised. It's true. But but the appropriate part is the part that I felt, right? Like, I had a moment of like, Oh, yeah, no, yep. Yep. That's right. Why do you think that you felt you needed to pipe in? Was it know it all ism or was it an expression of anxiety? I had never thought of it. I'd never considered it as expression of anxiety. Although I think that might be part of it. I think it was maybe a misguided attempt at connection. And here's a, here's a thing I know how to talk about. Oh, it was an opportunity for you to talk more to Vera. Yeah, exactly.

Right, but a miss, let's just say a misplayed hand. Yes, sure. Yeah, okay, all right. When you think about potentially driving back to Gilroy to that persimmon tree, getting out of the car and accompanying Vera to the front door while they knock on the door to ask the owners, may I eat some of your persimmons? How does that make you feel? A little nervous, but also a little excited. Yeah.

Okay. Why do you think it's nervous? What do you think is it? What's the worst that could happen? I don't know. I mean, I can tell you the worst that could happens, they say no, which is fatal, frankly. Right. Yeah. I don't know why it feels I even on the way over here this morning, this morning, I lost my car keys.

And as we were driving, I sort of just casually said outside out loud like, well, they're either we'll find them when I get home or they're gone forever and I'll have someone come out and rekey the car. And that's literally

the worst case scenario. Like I tend to have to process like, what actually is the worst possible thing that could happen and come to terms with that as being even the worst possible thing that could happen is not so bad. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, to be fair, they could say no,

or they could say, absolutely, but would you both come into the house please because my husband fell down and I need your help. And then no one ever sees either of you ever again. Right. Exactly. All for a taste of persimmon Vera. You're going to be murdered in a Gilroy basement all because you wanted persimmons.

I mean, the chances of us getting murdered by somebody who we don't know are much smaller than somebody that we do know. Well, Vera did the math. I can't argue with that. Matt, your ideal ruling is that Vera dropped the grudge. Yes. Vera says here that your ideal ruling is for Matt to be honest when he's uncomfortable

and not say a lie like, we'll stop on the way back, but instead say, I just don't want to do it. Is that right? Yes, that's right. And I also, I think it would be great if he were potentially more open to trying new things that maybe he's uncomfortable with. But also if he's uncomfortable,

of course I don't want for him to do it. But to be honest- Are you sure it might be amusing to you? he's uncomfortable, of course, I don't want for him to do it. But, um, to, are you sure it might be amusing to you? Yes, I, I, um, I am sure if he's actually uncomfortable with it, I think sometimes Matt says he's uncomfortable with something because he hasn't fully thought about it yet. And then when he takes the beat to think about it, then he'll say, actually, I might be willing to try this. Okay. So you want him to say, I'm uncomfortable,

so that you can then say to him, Tuff, we're doing it anyway. No, no. If he says I'm uncomfortable, don't wanna do that, then that's it, we will not be revisiting that, but I don't necessarily want for his first response to any new thing that I suggest to be, no, we're not doing that.

Has Matt gotten better since that day outside of the persimmon tree in terms of expressing and being honest about his feelings as opposed to misleading you with promises that he doesn't aim to keep? A little better, yeah. I think there's definitely still been some instances in which, uh, we figure out later that that wasn't actually something that Matt wanted to do. Or yeah, that he wasn't always completely honest about how he was feeling about something and then we do it anyways, and then it's fine.

I find out later that it wasn't actually something that wanted. And is this something you're working on to be able to speak your truth? Yeah. And just to be very blunt, I was recently diagnosed with ADHD and have been receiving appropriate medication. Shout out to science. And it was good while it lasted. I know, right? It has made a huge difference in my life to not be in a constant Dopamine dopamine deficit to be more willing to say this idea of doing something that I had not already considered is part of my plan Does not feel massively overwhelming and yes, I'm willing to give that a try. I'm glad to hear that I

Think I know everything I need to in order to make my decision. I'm going to go into my garlicky basement where I will contemplate your case and I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Vera, how are you feeling about your chances right now? I don't know. I feel pretty good about potentially going to get persimmons, but feel like I'm probably going to be asked to drop it or to stop giving Matt such a hard time. So, you know, pros and cons there. Matt, how are you feeling?

Similarly, yeah, I, I, I think the reason I brought the case in the first place is not to argue that I acted well in the first time past the Persimmons, but more just a, yeah, is there a chance that there will be a time in our lives where this will not become a running joke? Probably not, and I'd be okay with that. Are the two of you planning to attend the 25th anniversary celebration of Bullseye with Jesse Thorne, previously known as the Sound of Young America at the Coombewood Jazz Center in Santa Cruz this fall? Yes. Yes.

Great. Sounds like everyone wins then. We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment. Judge Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from the case. I want to mention I've got Questlove on Bullseye with Jesse Thorn this week. That's incredible. Yeah, it rules. Questlove is one of the truly one of the more interesting people

that I've ever encountered in my life. Obviously an artist, a thinker, a documentarian, a sneaker collector, a soul train historian, a comedic historian. These guys got everything going on. You know, Questlove founded the website, okplayer.com, which was an absolutely formative venue for me on the internet. It launched when I was a freshman in college. I was a big Roots fan. And those

message boards, I mean, among other things, there where I first met our friends from Tanya Morgan, Don Will and Von P. Don Will and Von P. Don Will and Von P, long, long ago, as well as the guys from Little Brother, another wonderful rap group, as well as my close friend, Nick Adams, who's a regular on Jordan Jesse Go, and has been since the very, very beginning,

as well as past Max Fun host Jasper Redd, and even folks like Anil Dash, and all kinds of amazing people I met on OK Player, a totally formative experience of my life. And Quest founded that website, was very active there, in addition to being an incredible documentarian. And there was a moment, I had never actually talked in real life to Quest.

And there was this moment in the interview where he noticed I had an OK Player sticker on my computer. Yeah. And he said, were you on OK Player? I was like, yeah, forever. It was still posted there once in a while. And he said, who are you on OK Player? And I was like, oh, forever. We still post there once in a while. And he said, who are you on OK Player? And I was like, oh, Polar Bear toenails.

And he goes, oh shit, you're Polar Bear toenails? Why didn't you tell me that to begin with? Yes, that's great. It was great fun. Well, I wish I could listen to you have a conversation with him on the radio or on a podcast or something, but I guess that's too much to hope for. You can find it on the podcast or on a podcast or something, but I guess that's too much to hope for.

You can find it on the podcast of Bulls Eye with Jesse Thorne, or if you want to watch, if you want to watch our video producer, Daniel Spear also produces video for Bulls Eye with Jesse Thorne, which you can find on the Bulls Eye with Jesse Thorne YouTube page, where so far in our whatever it is, eight months or so of posting a video of Bullseye. We've gotten a pretty good amount of views on an interview I did with Tony Gilroy, the creator of Andor, and almost no views on anything else.

So go watch my, occasionally we'll get a comment, why does no one watch this channel? Well, any comment is good. It's usually complimented, but a better comment would be better. This is really amazing content. Why does no one watch it? So go go watch it on YouTube and hit subscribe on the Bullseye channel.

I'm going to go do that myself. Hey, speaking about our friend, Don Will, who is one of the incredible rap band, Tonya Morgan, along with Von P. But Don Will is like the Judge John Hodgman podcast now a podcast Webby award winner for his podcast, the Almanac of rap hosted by Don Will. The Almanac of rap is a Webby award winning show that examines trends in hip hop and their impact over time. And according to this, it's way more fun than the description

makes it sounds. It's gotta be because Don is really one of the smartest, funniest, wonderfulest guys out there. And I love this podcast. It's called the Almanac of rap. And one of the podcasts that I would recommend. Well, first of all, I noticed that John Moe's got Hanif Adorkib on Sleeping with Celebrities. If you don't know Hanif Adorkib's book, there's always this year of just about him growing up in Columbus kind of in the at the same time that LeBron James was becoming an

Ohio basketball superstar, you would never think in a million years that I would love a sports book as much as I love that book. So go and check that out. And go and check John Moe's podcast Sleeping with Celebrities with Hanifa on it, which is incredible get. But also Janet Varney and I are recording season two of our podcast, E Pluribus Motto about the mottos and state muffins and state slogans and state mammals and cryptids of all the states, commonwealth territories and single

district here in the so far United States of America. E Pluribus Motto is a lot of fun. It is a Maximum Fun podcast. So please make sure to go over to MaximumFun.org and watch for the launch of that podcast. E Pluribus Motto Season Two coming to you soon. It's such a funny, charming podcast from two of the funniest and most charming people. I know if you love Judge John Hodgman here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast,

make sure that you are subscribed to E Pluribus Motto, where you will take the most delightful and bizarre tour of these great United States. Yeah, Season 2 will be launching in July. I'll let you know when for sure. But Season 1 is available now at MaximumFun.org. It's a great time to catch up and get ready for the states we're covering in season two,

which include Wisconsin, Minnesota, and the one and only District of Columbia, among others. So check it out. Season one available now. Let's get back to the case. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. First of all, congratulations on your studies Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. First of all, congratulations on your studies at UC Santa Cruz.

Congratulations on being both the fur parents and step parents to three wonderful animals, one of which represents a grudge, The other is wearing a crochet top hat. And the third of which is a, is a comfort animal to all of us. It's fun when you are a married committed couple to have some, some jokes with each other, some running jokes with each other, to, to poke, to poke a little fun at your spouse and back again, there's nothing wrong with it. Unless, unless your spouse is able to say, uh, actually I don't love this joke, this is making me feel bad.

Maybe your spouse just got diagnosed with ADHD and it's got some better medication and is able to say it to your face or via the medium of a podcast. Like I don't, I don't love the persimmon game anymore. Now this is not to say that Matt is without blame. That was a bad thing that happened. It was a crime, a small scale crime about the size of a persimmon. So not huge. It was like a hand fruit sized crime, but it was not just a crime by Matt against

Vera for denying Vera the thing that they, that they wanted, but it was a crime against Matt's own self to deny the truth of their feeling, which is I got to be honest with you, it makes me I've got a lot going on in my head as I'm introducing you to my parents at Christmas time, and it's getting late and we're driving along. And frankly, the idea of stopping and knocking on a stranger's door for Persimmons right now is just a little bit too much for me to handle. Maybe on our way back. And the doubling of the crime was, well, first of all, you didn't say those things, so that's crime number one. And then the double crime is that pretending that it didn't happen, hoping that they don't notice as you go back. That's actual obfuscation, right? That's actual lying by omission, which is both a crime against Vera and again, a crime against yourself because

honestly, lying makes one more anxious than being honest, right? And if the goal is to reduce anxiety, honesty is, I guess I'm saying for the very first time in history, the best policy. Now, look, this was early on in your relationship. You were still finding your legs with one another, no big deal. But I'm not surprised that it is a lasting memory because this is this initial moment, you know, you privileged anxiety over your partner. And we're all lucky, you in particular, Matt, and you too, Vera, but we're all lucky that you stayed together in spite of it.

Because Jesse and I got beautiful mugs out of it for one thing. And it seems like you're really great together. But it is something that I think for every reason as your wedding approaches, that should be atoned for. You know, Vera, you enjoy the grudge. It's fun for you, but it's not fun for Matt. It needs to end, clearly. Matt, you don't enjoy the grudge, but if I were to order it to stop without atonement, right? I don't think your victory would be particularly, you know, full and fleshy. Like a ripe persimmon, it would be hollow and desiccated.

Because going back to Gilroy and seeing that persimmon, it would be hollow and desiccated. Because going back to Gilroy and seeing that persimmon tree and asking for permission to eat of that sweet, sweet fruit and bringing that persimmon, well, it depends on the timing, right? It was like bringing that persimmon to your wedding and eating it from two different sides together, lady in the tramp style is a great way to finalize your vows and then you kiss at the end. Just my recommendation, just a little matrimonial stagecraft there. But even if you don't do that part, simply going there, I think offers an opportunity to correct a wrong and to put this grudge to bed.

I recommend that you bring a third party, perhaps your housemate, to stand outside with good self-service to make sure that you come out of the house safely. And who knows, maybe these people will be really weird until you know. And who knows, maybe these people will be really weird until you know. And they'll be really scary, in which case you'll have a fun story to tell to each other for years to come and maybe at your own wedding. But yes, I do order that the grudge must stop, so in this regard, I find in favor of Matt. But on the other hand, there has been crime and there must be punishment. And that means I order you both to go to Gilroy and get some sweet, sweet persimmons. Make sure they're ripe because I don't want you to get a beezer. This is the sound of a gavel.

I like to eat, eat, eat persimmons, persimmons. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Matt, how are you feeling? I feel great. That I think is the perfect outcome. Vera, how about you? Yeah, same here.

I think it is a fair outcome for both parties. Are either of you upset that Judge Hodgman continued to call it a Beezer after I told him it's pronounced Beez-or like 17 times? I'm delighted by your frustration. I noticed it every single time. Well, Matt, Vera, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast

and see you this fall at the Coombaugh Jazz Center in Santa Cruz. Thanks so much. See you there. Thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast and see you this fall at the Coomba Jazz Center in Santa Cruz. Thanks so much. See you there. Thank you. Another Judge John Hodgman cases in the books. We'll get Swift Justice in just a second, but first our thanks to Redditor's yumdundundun and gts84 for naming this week's episode, Persimmon to Approach the Branch. You can join the conversation about every episode

of Judge John Hodgman at reddit.com slash r slash maximumfun. That's also where we ask for those title suggestions. So you can go there to suggest titles and see all the fun ideas that folks have. You can find evidence and photos from this show, both on our website at MaximumFun.org and on Instagram at JudgeJohnHodgman, where we also post video highlights of the program

and exclusive VidCon, that's video content, John. VidCon, that's video content. We're also on TikTok and YouTube at JudgeJohnHodgmanPod and we encourage you to subscribe in both those places. And there are also great places to go to find something to share with a friend who might enjoy JudgeJohnHodgman. What do we got on the comment of the week front, John? Our comment of the week this time comes from Spotify,

where our listener Shelly says, "'As far as I'm concerned, John and Jesse are two of the sweetest, funniest examples of non-toxic masculinity that exists on earth. End quote. That's very kind indeed. Thank you very much, Shelly. If you are like Shelly and you enjoy our show and have something that you wanna say about it,

why not leave a comment over there on Spotify or leave a comment on YouTube or wherever you encounter our stuff on social media. Again, your engagement with all of our VidCon and our PodCon and our social con and everything else helps people see it and thus discover the show. So we're really, really grateful, but mostly, Shelly, we're grateful for your very kind words. Yeah, the algo rules our entire lives as creators these days,

and we beg of you, please feed the algo. Feed the algo. Otherwise, we're gonna have to start just like changing all of our content into 30-second hot political takes or whatever, because that's the only thing the algo actually likes, possibly pictures of butts. They also like food too.

I could be doing 30-second things where I eat a different style of hot dog and then I just go, still not a sandwich. That probably would work. It's probably not a bad idea. Judge John Hodgman created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman, this episode engineered by Chris Cottingham at Santa Cruz Recording in Santa Cruz, California, apt name.

Our social media manager is Dan Telfer. The podcast is edited by AJ McKeehan. Our video producer is Daniel Spear. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Now Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment. Here's something from McFeep, McFeep25 on Reddit. Are you ready, John?

I'm ready for McFeep, yep. My partner enjoys a glass of milk with ice, particularly after coming in from mowing the lawn. Wow. This is like the world's weirdest television commercial. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I maintain this is disgusting. Wow. It's like the world's weirdest television commercial. I maintain this is disgusting.

Who's right? It is disgusting, but in the court of Judge John Hodgman, people like what they like. And if that means McPheepe's partner is sweaty coming in from the lawn and goes to the refrigerator and gets a, not just a glass, but a huge jug of milk, like a lemonade jug full of milk and shovels a bunch of pebble ice in there and chugs it down. I'm gonna vomit, but if it makes McPheepe's partner happy,

that's the way it goes. Sorry, McPheepe. McPheepe's partner opens up the refrigerator after mowing the lawns like, OJ, purple stuff. Oh, milk with ice in it. Do you remember the Nestea Plunge? Was that something that ever hit your screens when you were a kid?

What was the Nestea Plunge? Nestea was a brand of sweetened canned iced tea. And when people would drink it on a hot summer day and the commercials, they would then fall into a swimming pool full of iced tea, I think. Anyway, you should fill up your pool with milk McVie partner. If you love it that much. I wish I could have that stuff, John. I really like sweetened iced tea, but it can't have it because of the tannins.

The tannins and the caffeine are both big time migraine triggers. All right. No matter what your disputes are, we want them at maximumfun.org slash JJHO. But let McPheepe inspire you. Yeah, McPheepe's partner takes comfort in a cold glass of milk. And we are still looking for disputes

for our comfort food docket. We've got Kenji Lopez-Alt and Deb Perelman from the Recipe Podcast as well as their own individual brilliant projects to comment on it. So what would you like to ask them about comfort foods? What comfort foods make you feel uncomfortable? Does your spouse put too much eggs and bread crumbs, say, in the meatloaf? When you're making a grilled cheese, do you butter the exterior of the bread? Or do you slather mayonnaise on the exterior of the bread and fry it in mayo? Let us know all of your disputes about comfort foods at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO.

And indeed, all of your disputes at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgson podcast.