Judge John Hodgman - Pizza Parley

Episode Date: December 24, 2014

A man seeks to enforce a contract regarding pizza toppings.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, pizza parlay. Meredith brings the case against her husband, Jason. Years ago, they settled a fantasy football dispute with a pizza truce. Jason would be allowed to choose Meredith's pizza toppings for as long as they were together. They've been together now for years. Is their contract still valid?

Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. We're coming your way. We're going to dazzle you with our judicious play. The time has come. You know we're shooting for number one with thunderbolts and lightning. We'll light up the sky. We'll give it all we've got and more with the Judge John Hodgman try.

Bailiff Jesse, please swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he orders pizza on his anchovies? I do.

I do. Very well, Judge Hodgman. Oh, were it only possible, Jesse. I would absolutely, yes. Why can't someone make a crust of interlaced anchovies the way that they make baskets out of woven bacon for Internet websites? Meredith and Jason, if you're still standing, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Are you able to name the piece of culture that I paraphrased as I entered this very real but very fake courtroom.

I maybe is it a fight song like a college fight song? Did you name it or did you not name it? I wasn't listening. I didn't hear the name of anything. I'm sorry. Let's see. I'm going to guess. Is it the Yale University fight song? I'm going to guess, is it the Yale University Fight Song? A reasonable guess. This could be one of the very few podcasts, however, where I will be making no Yale references whatsoever. That is my promise, so no.

You are wrong, Jason. I don't know. Oh, really? Would it help if I added some melody to it? Yeah, why don't you go ahead, Jessie. We're coming your way. We're going to dazzle you with our judicial play. The time has come. You know we're shooting for number one.

With thunderbolts and lightning, we'll light up the sky. we'll light up the sky we'll give it all we've got and more with the super charge oh i gave it away that's all right that was the reveal that is the that is a fight song meredith and uh and given that you are clearly a listener to the podcast and are familiar with my own alma mater and fondness for bulldog sports, I was a little surprised you didn't recognize the San Diego Chargers fight song, which is a great disco dance tune that Jesse is particularly fond of singing whenever he has an opportunity. And I decided to give him that opportunity. And he did a great job.

Do you think the chorus of our version goes, Judge John Hodgman, super podcast. Judge John Hodgman, super podcast. Judge John Hodgman, super podcast. Pod, pod, pod, pod, pod. I think that's the new theme song. Thank you very much, Jesse. See, I'm a Steelers fan, and we have the Steelers polka. We don't have a disco song.

How does that go? Can you sing it? Yeah, it goes, this is the Steelers polka. And then it goes on. My singing is terrible. No, that was pretty. I got a polka feel out of it. The only polka that has been going through my mind recently is a Pennsylvania polka,

as featured in the great Harold Ramis film, Groundhog Day, which we've now watched in our household about seven times in the past two days, or maybe 14 times in one day. I can't tell anymore. Time is in a loop when it comes to Groundhog Day. Meredith is a Groundhog Day hater. She does not like that show, that movie at all. That's true. Really?

Well, I find in favor of Jason. Thank you very much for coming in, you guys. I love that. I'm sure you have no particularly strong feelings about it, Jason. You just wanted to poison this court against your wife. Well, congratulations.

It worked. Poisoning succeeded. In any case, you guys are having a fight. The fight is over football or a form of football, fantasy football, which in my day we used to call LARPing. But nowadays means something else. all LARPing, but nowadays means something else. Fantasy football, I guess, is where people who are not athletic sit around a table and yell at each other while eating pizza, which sounds like a pretty good sport to me. A dispute came up in fantasy football.

Don't go into many details right now, Meredith, because we'll tease all this out during the case. However, as a result of this dispute, you guys came to an agreement where Jason was going to decide pizza toppings for a period of time in the future, which is also in dispute. Can you explain to me how this pizza settlement came about, what the rule change was and how it affected the game? Yes. So in 2009, we're in a fantasy football league of which I was the commissioner. of which I was the commissioner.

And we started week one with a rule that rewarded bad defenses sort of by accident. So if you picked a defense and you picked a bad defense, you could end up getting points because of this rule that we had in play. So at the end of week one, we recognized that that was a problem and changed the rule moving forward. Now, who's in the Fantasy Football League?

My college friends and my brother and Jason, my boyfriend at the time, now my husband. Aha. Okay. So you were but lovers at the time. Yes. We had only been together for like two months at this point. Oh, and then you just started playing fantasy football together? That goes against all rules of courtship.

It's pretty intimate. Do I understand correctly fantasy football is a game that is played in solitude via the internet and telephony and fax machine? Or do you guys all sit down in a basement somewhere D&D style and roll some dice? No, over the internet. The first.

But Jason, do you have pewter figurines or what? I've never played D&D, but I do like fantasy-themed games. All right, fine. Meredith, maybe you could clarify for us how this rule change affected the winners and losers in the league. Sure. So week one, Jason played against my brother and my brother won. When we went, when we changed the rule, it would have, if we had had the rule retroactively affect the previous week scores, Jason would have won.

And so a debate broke out about whether Jason should win or my brother should win, whether the new rules should impact the previous week's results or not. And to settle this debate, you offered to let Jason, then your boyfriend of but two months, to choose pizza toppings for you for the rest of your life. And you would like me to reverse that decision now. Is that correct? Yes. Well, because, I mean, we had only been together for two months.

I had every reason to believe that we would break up and that I would not— Every reason? Well, not every reason. But so, you know, I didn't realize that I was going to, you know, marry him. So your defense is— So you made this agreement. Jason, Jason was agitating for applying the rules retroactively so that his win would stand. Yeah. OK, I got it.

I got it. Right. And and your brother, quite reasonably, was arguing that it should the way Matt. And your brother was arguing that the rules should not be changed retroactively, but should simply be changed going forward. So he would consider to have one in the first week. Thank you,

Jesse sports fan. All right. And to settle this, you appeased your brother by giving him the win and you appeased your then boyfriend of two months by saying you will get to choose pizza toppings for me for the rest of my life. Yes. Yes or no. Yeah. Yes. This was an agreement that you entered into me for the rest of my life. Yes. Yes or no.

Yeah. Yes. This was an agreement that you entered into with your then boyfriend of two months. Yes. And your argument is that that should not be valid because you were not negotiating in good faith because you intended to break up with him. I didn't,

I didn't intend to break up with him, but up until that point in my life, all of the relationships I had been in had ended. So, you know, I had every reason to believe that this one would as well. Right. You made a rational choice that you probably would not have to honor his pizza choices for the rest of your life. But now you're staring down the long, long barrel of that pizza gun. And you're like, no, what is the kind of pizza that he orders he basically he just wants pork different variations of pork and then a few vegetables and that's it okay i think that's unfair jason why is that unfair well i mean it's true that i do like pork products on pizza

who doesn't uh but but there's a fairly wide veget of toppings. Vegetarians. Babe the pig probably doesn't like it. Neither of us are vegetarians. If she were a vegetarian, then I would have to rethink the agreement. But, you know, there's a wide variety of vegetables I like and meats. And I even like a few different styles of pizza, like taco pizza and things like that. Wait a minute. That's not a real style of pizza. What is taco pizza? Taco pizza is a real style of pizza. taco pizza and things like that what is wait a minute that's not a real style what is taco pizza taco pizza is a real style pizza what is it you can get it at godfather's

what about spaghetti pizza i don't want to hear a real style of pizza what about caesar salad pizza what about jello salad pizza is that a type of pizza what about ambrosia salad pizza i know i've never seen that i I would not eat it. What about hot dog pizza? No. Well, I've had it in New Jersey once. It was called Grand Slam pizza. I'm sorry. It had hot dogs and french fries on it. That sounds great.

That's a real style of pizza, Jason. What is a taco pizza, Jason? If you can't define it quickly right now, I'm going to find in Meredith's favor. Go. Taco pizza has beef and cheddar cheese and lettuce and tomatoes. And frequently it also has kind of crushed up corn tortilla chips on top. Okay, good. You did a good job. It's disgusting, but you did a good job. And so, Meredith, there seems to be a lot of variety, although meaty variety in the pizza toppings that Jason is choosing for your household. How long have you been married, by the way? A little over a year.

All right. And so do you object to his specific choices or the lack of freedom in your life as a married woman? It's more of the lack of freedom. You know, I do not mind eating pepperoni or sausage pizza, but I would occasionally like to eat a more adventurous pizza. And Jason is kind of a picky eater, and so he won't even do the half-and-half pizza with me because he's worried that my toppings will come over onto his half. And how old are you, Meredith? I'm 30.

And how old is Jason, 12? Yes. I do actually do half and half. That's a misrepresentation. The only time that I can't do half and half if it's a type of topic, like she wants like a cheese sauce. And the cheese sauce does bleed over and it takes over more than its boundaries. If, you know, a half and half where it's like she wants chicken on one side and I want pepperoni on the other side, that's perfectly fine.

It's when her toppings need to invade my toppings. Because the pieces of meat know their place, just like your wife should when it comes to pizza. Guys, I hate to interject again here, but what the hell is cheese sauce doing on a pizza? Is that for a classic bar park nacho style pizza? This is a misrepresentation. I do not order pizza with cheese sauce on it.

You want a white pizza with Alfredo sauce or something? It's a garlic cream sauce, not a cheese sauce. Yeah, cream. What? Where are are you getting where do you live we live we live in moorhead minnesota which is the minnesota side of fargo north dakota oh now everything is becoming very clear is this also some kind of crazy like test marketplace not like the kind of place where Sbarro and Olive Garden compete to come up with the stupidest type of pizza. No, it's just... I don't think we have Sbarro. It's just northern Minnesota.

It's cold and isolated and dark for much of the winter. And all people can do there is play fantasy baseball... I mean, fantasy footballs and and imagine new ways to add cheese to the food that they're eating you sent in some evidence did you not from from the pizza place to as representative sample of the things that you like and don't like and the evidence you receive you sent in to me uh let's see here this will be available on our website, MaximumFun.org, obviously.

This is a menu from this pizza place. We will not name the name of the pizza place. You have circled the Tuscany pizza, Meredith, and Jason has sequeled the Aaron's Little Miracle. Aaron's Little Miracle is pepperoni, bacon, green peppers, onion, and mozzarella, perfectly respectable pizza. I noticed, Aaron, that you did not circle the taco pizza, which is right next to it, or for that matter, the big dog's

pizza, which is D-O-G-Z, which is disgusting. That just shows you that it's made with imitation dog, not real dog. Yeah, right. That's right. And Tuscany, a mustard Tuscan sauce, garlic, chicken, onion, red pepper, tomato,

mozzarella, ricotta, and oregano, as my nine-year-old son says. Jason, why is the Tuscany pizza disgusting? Well, I mean, the first time— Let me rephrase that. Why is Tuscany pizza more disgusting than taco pizza? I won't necessarily defend that, but for some reason I do like a taco pizza uh i i won't necessarily defend that but for some reason i do like a taco pizza so uh the aaron's or the uh tuscany the mustard sauce uh yeah that's interesting it's delicious you know was there like arugula on that too or one of the ones she likes to eat it has like

lettuce and stuff like that which i don't mind lettuce but it just like why is that on a pizza uh what ricotta cheese i really can't deal with ricotta cheese the texture of it is just why can't you deal with ricotta cheese i have a i have a texture issue oh he's a very picky eater i am not i'm not a very picky eater i just have certain textures that really gross me out. Like they make me convulse. Like you want to throw up. That makes me want to throw up. Picky eaters who talk about it, who are not 12 years old, are only exceeded in annoyingness by 12 year olds to me.

Sorry. That is a personal prejudice of this court. But, you know, I feel that everyone has their preferences in life. I know a man named John Roderick who happily and openly claims that he hates potatoes, which is in all forms. French fries, mashed potatoes. Is there another form? Scalloped potatoes, which is in all forms. French fries, mashed potatoes. Is there another form? Scalloped potatoes, I suppose.

Whole raw potatoes, I guess you could say those are disgusting. But you can't make an argument about any other kind of potato, but it's just something that he hates. He's always hated it. You know what I've seen him do at the dinner table? Eat some mashed potatoes. Know why? Because he's a grown-up and he was served them.

Now, obviously, if you have a choice, you would prefer not to get ricotta. I understand. But let's not talk about the textures that don't feel right in your mouth because that's gross to other humans. Well, yeah, exactly. The only thing that's gross to me, too. Yeah, but it's more gross to me. And it's my podcast.

Well, I share it with Jesse, of course. The only thing that's more gross than any of that, than even the taco pizza, is this thing on the menu next to it. S'mores pizza. And there's a pizza on there that Meredith likes to get that has pickles on it. It's good. S'mores. Hot pickles are good. Well, deep fried pickles are good.

I agree. I have no texture problem with that. The mouth feels fantastic. The mouth feels the worst phrase of all time. Hot pickles on pizza. So you're an adventurous pizza eater. Is that not true, Meredith? I am, yes.

And in general, I am an adventurous eater. So we reach these sort of food conflicts a lot. Mm hmm. And Jason, we haven't brought this up yet, but Jason is a national champion debater when he was in college and he is a professor of argumentation. So I lose every argument. Is that a real? Have you ever seen his paycheck? Is that a real job? Are you sure he doesn't just go down to work at the plant, but he comes home and tells you that whenever you have a disagreement? Are you sure that's not his nickname in the freestyle rap battles

they get into in Fargo, North Dakota? What is your job really, Jason? What is your job really, Jason? I teach at a private liberal arts college in Moorhead. And you are the professor of argumentation? No, I'm in the communication studies department, but mostly I teach argumentation and I coach the debate team at the college. He does literally teach argumentation. Is it the type of debate where they talk really fast? Because that's pretty funny.

Yes, it is. Well, actually, to that effect, we have some evidence that was sent in by Meredith. Jason, I'm not sure that you know that this evidence was sent in. This is video of the CEDA National Championship Debate, part one from 2002, when I presume you were a college student somewhere. Is that right? That's right. At Fort Hayes State University in Kansas.

Oh, all right. And here is Jason making the second affirmative. Here we go. All right, I think I've heard enough. I'm pretty sure that you're debating a seal there. Is that correct? No, that's the sound of him taking breaths between the words. That's right. Like, isn't the point of debate to convince people of something?

Yes. To make an argument? Yeah, you have to keep in mind that the judging for the debate is a specialized audience that's able to listen to that speed of message. And so, yeah, you have to convince. But it's it's an emphasis on information processing and the ability to quickly deal with arguments on your feet. And so, you know, it's it's definitely not aimed toward a broader public audience. And so, you know, it's definitely not aimed toward a broader public audience. But do you gain a psychological advantage by giving the judging committee the impression that you're about to have a horrible asthma attack? I will say that, yeah, that was not a strength.

If I, I was, I had to speak very loudly. It was in a large auditorium. And so I wasn't able to have my normal breathing patterns, which usually aren't that bad. At some point, I'm going to actually play that tape back slowly so I can understand what the argument was. But did you win? Yes. Yes, we won. Okay. Well done. Thank you.

Discussing pizza preference here is somewhat immaterial because the reality is there is a contract made. And the question is whether the contract should be honored. You stipulate that the contract was made. Do you not, Meredith? It was made. I do agree to that. Yeah. Was the underlying, was the settlement necessary?

Why, Jason, did you have an argument with the rule changer, specifically how the rule change was applied? Why would it only be fair if it had been retroactively applied? Why would it only be fair if it had been retroactively applied? And why was it unfair, so unfair that it was not retroactively implied that you deserve to mandate pizza choice for the rest of time? And throughout the known universe and unknown universe, I presume as well. Well, one thing I think that's sort of background context is that both Meredith and I are competitive people. We like to play games. We like to, you know, we play gin. We play other kinds of games. And so fantasy football is one outlet for that.

So we both take it seriously. And in fact, Meredith's in a football picks league. So she's also a very competitive person. So winning matters. Now, of course, it's still just a game. So we don't take it you know it's not like it's life or death or anything right it's not like gin certainly it's not like your regular canasta games yeah this isn't this isn't bridge you guys just a friendly game and so in in this instance you know one of the big factors was that it was a rule that was so unusual. It's a rule that nobody would have predicted, and it was a rule that nobody thought was a good idea. Nobody planned around the rule or anything like that. Where did the rule come from?

It was automatically generated by the website that we were using. See, I don't think that's possible. Because it wouldn't have done that. It wasn't one of the standard rules. It would have had to been an accident. You are implying that Meredith misunderstood or misapplied the rules as commissioner and probably was not a very good commissioner. Is that what you're trying to say, sir? Maybe she accidentally clicked a checkbox and didn't mean to or something. You know, no ill intent or anything, but

it wasn't a standard rule. So you're not saying she's a Roger Goodell type figure? Only occasionally. Sports! But the point is no one disputes that the rule is bad. A movement was made to fix the rule.

You don't like how the fix was applied. Why was it unfair to you? Why do you deserve to determine pizza choice for all time? Please tell it to me quickly while gasping for breath. Otherwise, it's not a real and persuasive argument. The reason why I deserve to pick pizza toppings is because the agreement was made. I snapped that deal up right away. I'll say I thought it was a good deal that I get to pick

pizza toppings in exchange for one loss. Although that loss did cost me the playoffs. I did not make it to the playoffs in my fantasy football league for that reason. So we had that agreement and we moved forward. I've been accommodating as well. How so? How so? We'll do a little role play.

Let's say I'm Meredith and you're you and I have an idea for a pizza and I go, excuse me, master. If I submit in writing that I would like mustard sauce on the pizza. Will you please accommodate my choice this one time? So there's a couple of ways. Sometimes we do half and half. Sometimes we do separate. Never with the mustard pizza. Sometimes we do separate pizzas. Sometimes.

And I'll never pick pizza toppings that I know that she dislikes. Like, for instance, I like olives. We've been over this. I can't go through the entire list. But what I'm saying, I don't want to hear about this. I want to hear about the underlying dispute. I want to hear if you held a reasonable position in the underlying dispute such that you're giving up the fight in favor of this pizza settlement was actually a sacrifice or if you had an unreasonable position which therefore you were making trouble in order to affect getting some getting some pizza choice down the road in the

same way that that let's say one party of congress might uh might cause uh trouble and shut down the government in order to get concessions that have nothing to do with budgetary matters. He's talking about the wigs. Yep. I'm talking about the anti-Masonic party again. Sorry, guys. A little bit of a bugaboo for me. Why were you right? I'm obsessed with the silver standard.

Why were you right, and why was Meredith's brother wrong? Quick, go. And hyperventilate while talking. Do it. Micromachines, go. The reason why I was right is because nobody knew about the rule and nobody thought that the rule was a good idea. And so if that's the case, then we should change the rule and it should be in effect. Not just, you know, Andrew did not plan his team around that rule.

He didn't start somebody according to that rule. start somebody according to that rule. If no one knew that the rule was going to be changed after a week, then no one could anticipate that it would be changed, and therefore no one strategized differently, correct? You all suffered under the same disadvantage now? It did create a problem for everybody, although I was the only one that lost as a result of it.

But the point is nobody planned that the rule existed. You're right that nobody planned that the rule would change, but it's because they didn't even know that the rule was there in the first place. Jesse Thorne, you understand more about this than I do. Is Jason's position reasonable here or what? I think so. I think that the central issue in Jason's position is that this was not a rule that everyone knew about, understood, and planned their teams around, then got changed. This was a rule that was unexpected for everyone. And so it's reasonable for Jason to argue that it should be removed retroactively. If Jason's brother-in-law had decided to draft a bad defense because he knew that bad defenses got extra points because of the particular issue here, which is they got points for return yards, then I think he would be on shakier ground. But as long as no one was expecting this rule, changing it retroactively makes a lot of sense. And just so that I'm perfectly clear, the decision was made by Meredith to not change it retroactively,

thus causing Jason to lose and the brother to win. And that's what the brother wanted, right? Yes. Right. Yes. Meredith. Yes, I sided. Yeah.

Why did you make this deal? Well, it's a little. Because Bailiff Jesse, my sportsy parliamentarian friend, has really made a strong case for your now husband that you should never change the rule in the way that you did. And therefore, you deserve to suffer for the rest of your life with his pizza choices and his picky eating and his mouth field discussions. Why did you make this deal? Why did you favor your brother? Isn't this against your principles as a commissioner?

Well, I favored my brother because so I come from an Italian American family and I'm from Boston actually like, like yourself. And my brother... You're the time for buttering me up with Yale references and New England stuff is over, because you live in Minnesota, and you made a bad choice, and you put pickles on your pizza. So look, we are not of the same country, madam. I'm sorry. So, uh, so I knew that if this argument persisted or that if I sided with Jason, my brother would go over to my

grandparents' house for dinner, uh, and be like, oh, Meredith's new boyfriend is a really big jerk. And then my grandparents would be like, what? He's a jerk. And then it would be a really big deal. My grandparents would be like, what? He's a jerk. And then it would be a really big deal. But you had already decided in your heart that he was too hideous to contemplate marrying in the future. Yeah, but I didn't want to. You were trying to have it both ways.

I was. Yeah. And I didn't want to deal with my with my family. They're very they can be. I don't know. And Andrew is the son. Yeah, he's the son. The only son in an Italian-American house. Oh, yeah. Well, then he's

used to getting things all his own way. Even if it's not fair. Oh, Bambino. Yes, of course. You win football this time. Shh, be quiet, hideous monster. You are in the right, but shh, be quiet. Don't make him sad. Don't make him cry.

This is an offensive, an offensive. If I were not half Italian-American, even then it's offensive. So I apologize to all my Italian-American listeners and also to all of my listeners who can do good accents. I apologize to you as well. It's offensive in every way. But you wanted your brother to, to do well.

Cause he's not, he's not used to being told no ever in his life. And you figured, all right, I'm probably not going to date this monster for much longer, but if I do, I don't want my family to know what a monster he is. Therefore I'm going to,

I'm going to win this one because I'm going to make this completely unenforceable, dumb pizza decision with this guy and make him make him okay and then my brother won't be mad and he won't spread uh terrible uh uh rumors about this jerk that i'm dating and make me look bad by association you thought you could have it every ways is that not so madam don't wait for the translation is that not so it's so i admitted it. So but it was also it was also in Jason's best interest for me to do this because I knew that if he ever came to visit my family in Boston, they would never have forgotten that my brother at one point had said that he was a jerk.

And they would, you know, bring it up. And let me ask you this question. Have they figured it out yet? No, they love him. They think he's he's the best all right do they like his pizza choices um i think when they're my grandparents also have very conservative pizza choices their favorite pizza place which is in coolidge corner they only get like you can say you can say the name of the pizza place it's it's Pino's Pizza. Sure. That's a fine. That's a fine pizza parlor, traditional pizza parlor in Coolidge Corner, Brookline, Massachusetts. That's fine. It is.

It's excellent. So and they just want cheese pizza. So Jason is fine with that. Did you ever go to Alan Toney's that used to be next to the Coolidge Corner movie house back when it was the Coolidge Corner movie house? And we still had that. We still had our box office and the whole front part of our lobby. There was Alan Toney's pizza?

No, I think the ground round was next door when I was a kid. You don't know what you mean. Jason, do you know anything about the 1989 National League champion San Francisco Giants? Is that the earthquake here? Yeah, you got it. I would allow Jesse Thorne's, from a parliamentarian point of view, Jesse Thorne's dismissive questioning of Jason about something from his own childhood to make my question look ridiculous in comparison and to highlight the narcissism of my question if it were not for the fact that Meredith said that Ground Round was in Coolidge Corner.

You're thinking of Cleveland Circle, madam. Oh! Oh my gosh! Oh no! Pino's Pizza is not in Coolidge Corner. You're thinking of Cleveland Circle, madam. Oh! Oh my gosh. Oh no! Pino's Pizza is not in Coolidge Corner. Even I made that mistake. You're thinking, oh my goodness. I'm so sorry.

You're right. Cleveland Circle. What? What is? Is this a fraud? Is this a hoax? Have you ever even been to Brookline? Do better research next time.

My grandparents live in Brookline, I swear. Cleveland Circle people. That's a different story over there. I was going to tell you all about Al and Tony's, my favorite pizza place, because they did a Greek salad, as all Italian pizza places do, that had the most garlicky dressing. Boy, you'd probably want to put it on a pizza, Meredith. It was so good. Meredith, how often does this come up in real life in your guys' lives? How often do you guys order pizza?

Probably once a week. And why don't you order one of your crazy pies for yourself? It's the perfect solution, right? Just get a crazy pie. Well, it's just much more expensive to order two pizzas than to order one. And I think that we should just do half and half. Okay. But you understand that if you ordered your own pizza,

this would solve this problem right quick. Just save a little extra money and get whatever pizza you want. And then, you know, pizza keeps pretty good. You could save it. You could, you could,

you could chew it right in his face and you could, you could give them, you could give them all, you know, give them all the mouthfeel sounds you want, just like nom, nom, nom, nom. This is justice to you. Well, also, small pizzas, the ratio of crust to inside is kind of off, so they're never quite as good as larger pizzas. Yeah, get a large.

Who's being picky? No, no, Jason, she's right. She's right, and you know it i know that you're an expert debater and you're used to taking the side just for the sake of taking a side but i hope you're not sitting over there saying that a small pizza has the same texture and mouthfeel as a large pizza sir oh it's true that's right of That's right. Of course it's right. Especially if you're slathering up with mustard. That's definitely going to affect the sogginess

of the pizza. I really want to try this mustard pizza, you guys. It's so good. Meredith, if the point of this contract was to ensure that your brother did not speak ill of Jason to your family. First of all, did you get that benefit?

Did your brother go and say, hey, family, I like this guy. He's a real pushover. All you got to do is promise him pizza and he's not a jerk. You know, my brother's not particularly effusive. So I don't know if he said that, but he certainly did not say anything negative about Jason. Yeah, this is my imitation of your brother. I need more, Ma! Give me more!

I want to win, Ma! To be fair, my brother is actually a very like kind sensitive person but it's really the problem more lies in the older generation of people in my family who just sort of take whatever he says as absolute truth and and never really move on past that what is your brother's name andrew andrew and and one last thing here before i go into my chambers to consider this. You sent in a document drop at the last minute of a bunch of emails reported to be between you and Andrew. I got to tell the listeners,

there's probably a thousand emails here. Very difficult to go through. I've spent the entire night, up all night, leafing through these documents, and only two points have have been germane uh one point that comes out of these documents is this uh Andrew writes I had to you Meredith in going over this dispute I have some documentary evidence from the time of the incident apparently the pizza concession was only intended to be in effect for the remainder of the 2009 nfl season and quote while hanging out with the your last name clan which is very different from the agreement as i

understand it what is true jason uh that that was a message that she said before we'd actually talked about it. And so we both agree, I think, and we've been living for the last five years as if it weren't just the 2009 season. Yeah, I don't really dispute. We both have the same understanding of the agreement. Basically, I sent that email out in 2009 before I went over the deal with Jason and he decided that that deal wasn't good enough. Well, I didn't decide. I expressed my displeasure with it. So this email from Meredith to Andrew and you, Jason, dated 15 September 2009, 546.09 seconds PM Eastern Standard Time, in which Meredith writes, okay, no more arguments.

I've decided that I agree with GIF. That's one of the other players. Scores will be returned to what they were pre-changes and changes will take effect this coming week. I've also decided that Jason will remain a loser. He gets two important person hanging out with the Your Last Name clan for the remainder of football season.

One, first choice of rock band instrument. Two, first choice of pizza toppings. I think that's fair. And although I haven't cleared it with Andrew, I'm sure he will graciously agree. So this does not describe, it seems to describe in detail what the agreement was. Jason, do you dispute this email? No, she made that decision. She sent out the email.

We were not in the same place. We lived apart for a couple of years. And so then when we talked on the phone later, then that's when the deal changed. Do you have a recording of that phone call? No, but I do have verbal agreement that Meredith just gave that that's what the deal was. Meredith, you confirm that the agreement changed after this initial proposal? Yes, unfortunately. And do you do so of your own free will without?

I do, yes. Would you like to go into a separate room and talk to me separately? No, I agree. Jason's right, unfortunately. jason this is a pretty good deal pizza toppings for the rest of the year and first choice of rock band instrument by the way which would you choose guitar i although sometimes i like playing drums too right just as long as you get first choice that's all you care about you don't even care what it is just as long as you get to choose so literally what happened is i understand it is meredith sent this email around you looked at it and you said not good enough my my loss is so grave that i that pizza for the rest my getting first choice on rock band instrument and

choice of pizza toppings for the rest of this football league season is not enough. It has to be for the rest of my life. Is that right? Fantasy football is a pretty big deal. I see. Do you enjoy being married, Jason? Well, we got married after that. So I figured that, you know, let's spend doing something right. What is it?

What is the rock band? What is the rock band situation in your house now? It's actually been a while since we played. But do you also demand first choice of rock band instrument? I mean, do you consider that part of this deal? It has not been enforced, I suppose. I hadn't really thought about it. Yeah, we just don't really play rock band anymore, so it hasn't really come up. But if it did come up, Jason, would you insist

that as part of your settlement agreement of September of 2009, you get to pick whatever instrument you want first? I would not necessarily do that, but what I would insist is that I don't get forced to play, to be the singer. Meredith, does Jason have a problem with, um, reasonable compromise in any other parts of your marriage? Uh,

actually, no, he's, he's actually a very good at compromise and it's generally a really easy person to live with and be married to. But really the only thing that he is really incredibly adamant about is food and his ideas about food. And he uses the pizza truce as an argument for why he should get to choose the pizza. If I were you and I wanted to make an argument that would poison the court against your husband,

and I wanted to make an argument that would poison the court against your husband, I would start listing some of the other things that he's weird about when it comes to food. Oh. I'm not saying— I thought this wasn't about food, but about the agreement. Be quiet, sir! What was that, Meredith? You have an objection and you want to list a bunch of things that Jason is weird about with food? Sustained.

Yes, I do. He hates pretty much all sauces, especially white sauces. Generally, he won't eat anything white. He won't eat mayonnaise. He won't eat mayo. He won't eat ranch dressing. Wait a minute. Are you saying he won't eat mayonnaise or mayo? Yeah, both. He won't eat basically any condiments. He hates ketchup. He won't eat basically any condiments. He hates ketchup.

He won't eat anything kind of soft. So like eggplant or ricotta cheese. He won't eat anything creamy unless it's in an ethnic food. So he'll eat like a creamy Indian or Thai dish, but he won't eat like a, you know, like a fettuccine Alfredo. he won't eat like a you know like a fettuccine alfredo or he won't eat anything with like a white sauce unless it's you know from another country what are your other do you have any other cooked fruit oh yeah he won't eat any cooked fruit so he won't eat pies um i'm not laughing hey you're not eating pies. I don't laugh at anyone's particular choices, but I just love that exchange. Like, was there anything else?

Cooked fruit on the tip of your tongue. It's like, I can't believe she's not mentioning cooked fruit. That would have been the first thing I said. Anything else you'd like to list? And anything that risks being soggy, really? Oh yeah. Soggy bread. He cannot, if anything touches

a piece of bread, he won't eat it. I've heard everything I need to hear. I'm going to go into my chambers and fire up my backyard pizza oven and make myself a beautiful hot piece of mayonnaise pie. Hot pickles

and anchovies, and I'll be back in a moment to render my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jason, you're the champion debater here. I bet you've got a pretty good sense of whether you're going to win or lose. What are you thinking? Well, the hard part is it always depends on the judge. You know, like I can think that I won in my head,

but it doesn't really matter if I haven't convinced the judge. And so I don't know where he's going. Jason, I have to admit, I was disappointed with how fast you talked. It was pretty slow. Can you just give me an example of fast talking in a debate situation? Like if I give you a resolution that you have to argue for, will you just fast talk a little bit? Well, I mean, the problem is that it's like any sort of, honestly, athletic training. You have to be in shape.

And now that I'm a coach, I don't give those kinds of speeches. And so I've lost the ability to do it. I don't care, Jason. Just do it. It'll be fun. Oh. Okay. Here's your resolution.

Fruits resolved. Fruits are better than vegetables. You'll be arguing pro. You have 60 seconds. Begin. Oh, wait. Wait a second. Yeah, wait a second. Yeah, I got nothing.

What I could do is I could get a text and I could read the text really fast. As fast as I could, which is still pretty slow. No, that's not really unacceptable. Jason, you're an embarrassment. That's the honest truth. You're an embarrassment to debating.

Those who cannot teach, apparently. Meredith, how are you feeling about your chances? You know, I think I feel okay. I think that maybe the unreasonableness of the initial agreement was apparent. And so, you know, I think I'm feeling pretty good. Meredith, you have 60 seconds. Fruits are better than vegetables. Go.

Fruits are very sweet. They taste good. You can eat them raw. There you go. You already won. Jason literally came up with nothing. He's a professional argumenter, and he literally came up with nothing. He's a professional argumenter and he literally came up with nothing. Well, we'll see what the results are in this particular argument when we come back in just a second. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org.

Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations and delivered with conversation based teaching.

So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world and you get to hear the sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird, hyperacademic chore. It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear the sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman, spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman.

Rules and restrictions apply. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs. They're made in, made in. The Rohan duck.

Made in, made in. Riders of Rohan. Duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop? You got it. Made in, made in. Made in has been supplying top chefs and restaurants with high-end cookware for years. They make the stuff that chefs need.

Their carbon steel cookware is the best of cast iron, the best of stainless clad. It gets super hot. It's rugged enough for grills or an open flame. One of the most useful pans you can own. And like we said, good enough for real professional chefs, the best professional chefs. Oh, so I have to go all the way down to the restaurant district in restaurant town? Just buy it online. This is professional grade cookware

that is available online directly to you, the consumer, at a very reasonable price. Yeah. If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this Memorial Day.

From the 18th until the 27th, visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware dot com. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace because yes,

listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on

the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit.

No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. We are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom.

There was one other bit in the email document drop that I received. And as far as I can tell, it was Jason's only contribution to the conversation. A single line on september 15 2009 in response to meredith's proposal of pizza choice for the end of the nfl season plus rock band instrument first choice as being the settlement andrew replied whatever you lost to you Jason, which was a provocative thing to say. And Jason replied, the rule of law is a myth. But that's a whole different conversation. Would you like to, before I render my verdict, Jason, expound on that a little bit and quickly? I mean, like,

fast talk, if possible? Well, the idea that there is an objective law that stands outside of the people who implement that law is a myth that people who are real people in the world have to put it into play. And those people are subjective and biased and have their own agendas and it may not be it may even be innocent but that the law itself does not stand outside of them i plead guilty to my biases and my subjectivity sir it is hard for me to sit here in judgment of you a person who neither likes mayonnaise nor mayo. Two things that are a colloidal unity and are very close to my heart. And yet we have a reasonable dispute between two parties.

It was settled with an agreement that was agreed to by adults. Now, some people like systems more than they like things. Some people care about arguing more than they care about the thing that is being argued over. These are people who like fantasy football more than football because fantasy football is a kind of debate club. And I say this is one of your people. There's very little to distinguish the fantasy footballist from the fantasy wargamer because the pleasure is derived not from an appreciation of a real sport or a real orc versus dwarf battle, but for the appreciation of a system of rules that create a winnable outcome in an entirely imaginary context. So I appreciate why someone would get upset and frustrated with a change of rule after a week that was not going to be applied retroactively.

And this is why I could never enjoy D&D as a child, because I liked thinking about dungeons, and I liked thinking about dragons, and because I liked thinking about dungeons and I liked thinking about dragons and I also like thinking about ampersands and I was certainly interested enough and socially marginal enough to want to sit in a room with my smelly friends and pretend to live in a fantasy world I just didn't see why I had to do some dumb math to do it why so many dice and rules and exception to rules until I realized that's the game the rules are the game and for some people fighting over the rules and procedures is the best game. So here we are fighting over a pizza choice when it's really not about pizza, right? It's clearly an acceptable solution. Order your own dumb pizza, Meredith,

save up your money, get yourself a large mustard pizza, all your own and eat it right in his face and let your child of a husband eat his special mouthfeel pizza with nothing touching it. Because that's justice. We know we are wrong in life when no one will eat with us. Eat alone someday without the internet or television, all by yourself.

Then you will feel profoundly alone. Then you will feel profoundly wrong. And that is just punishment for his inflexibility in these things. Meredith, what can I say? You're a grownup. For me to side with you, I mean, this is a terrible deal that you agreed to. Terrible. This is a completely terrible deal for a number of reasons one the benefit that you are getting out of the deal first of all is long since expired because he married this guy and your family has chosen

to accept it two may have been imaginary you had no direct reason to believe that uh that your brother was going to go malign this dude to your family over this issue, even though clearly all Jason was doing was standing up for himself and making a point that my own bailiff says is probably the correct point. And three, the person who really benefited from this was your brother who gets anything he wants anyway. brother who gets anything anything he wants anyway and now you're stuck in a deal where not nearly did you propose jason gets to eat whatever pizza he wants for the end of the nfl season then he comes back and renegotiates with no not good enough for the rest of my life

and our life together and you said yes you say you said yes. You say you said yes. If you had said, I don't remember that conversation, this whole thing would be going a different place. But you acknowledge you said yes, correct? Yes. Yeah, well. Let me say, it is hard to take your side as much as I would like to.

Because I do believe, unlike Jason, that there is law. Law is not a myth. And just because it's fake Internet law, I am obliged to rule according to an agreement made between two adults who understood what they were doing when they made the agreement, as much as it pains me. Because the fact is, you agreed to a thing. And even though it is a terrible thing that you agreed to, and you should not have agreed to it, you did anyway. And as a result, now you're married. It sounds like the marriage is working out okay.

But I trust that from now on, it's going to be caveat Pete Zor. Do you know what I'm saying? Watch yourself with this guy. He makes an agreement. He's going to stick by it. Any normal rational person would have said, no, not anymore. But this guy's got weird food issues. Doesn't like mayonnaise. Can't trust him.

It's going to bring up that pizza truce for the rest of your life. All I can do is advise you both. No, I'm not even going to advise you both. All I can do is advise you, Meredith. Ignore his pizza choice. Get your own pizza. Create a fund. Save your museum and your art money. Do your own thing. This is an area in your marriage where you will never see eye to eye, slice to slice. and take your vengeance that way because as far as I'm concerned, this is a valid contract. There's no reason to invalidate it. There is such a thing as law, at least in this internet. Judge John Hodgman rules.

That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jason, how do you feel? Relieved. I was really worried I was going to have to eat gross mustard sauce or something. Meredith, how are you feeling? You know, at least I won that fruit argument, so I'm feeling okay.

Well, Jason, Meredith, thank you for joining us on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast. Thank you. and Meredith, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. Judge Hodgman. Canadian house of pizza and garbage. The t-shirts are on our store.

MaxFunStore.com is where we can buy them. Pizza and order. Shoppe at our store another bad accent from John Hodgman or John

Hodgman as the case may be the man of a thousand bad voices the man of two stereotypical bad

accents Judge Hodgman you could come up with some reasons why fruit is better than vegetables right nope

taste better how about that like to start there I like it satsuma obviously and every every now and then a banana and I is better than vegetables, right? Nope. Tastes better. How about that? Just start there. I like a satsuma, obviously. And every now and then a banana. And I love a tomato.

But some fruits, I just don't. I'd go to a string bean before I went to a grape. What about a mango? How do you feel about mangoes? That's the world's most popular fruit. Well, I don't, you know, honestly, I don't know how to eat them. Can I tell you the truth? Do you shuck them out of their shells? Yeah, literally the best thing about living in Los Angeles, and I mean this absolutely sincerely,

I mean, proximity to the entertainment industry is nice. The weather is good. Sure. But really the best thing is that there are people on every street corner prepared to sell you mangoes that they've already chopped up into pieces so you don't have to worry about it. That is such a blessing. That has improved my life so much and they already

have some lime to put on it which really adds to it. A little bit of salt adds to it a lot. All right. Now you're already into some kind of mango ceviche deal. Like you're having a salad at that point. Out of a bag. Five bucks.

Just give the man five bucks. He'll give you an enormous bag of fruit. More fruit than you could ever eat. You have to share it with somebody. When I was growing up, a Los Angeles bag salad meant meant something different but i'm willing to give it a try well john you are no longer on tour um uh i will mention that uh i will be at the upright citizens brigade theater in january here in los angeles uh doing jordan jesse go alongside Alongside one of our newest Maximum Fun shows, the Bunker Buddies.

Bunker Buddies, they're helping you survive when things go wrong, Bunker Buddies. They're like the Superchargers, but they're not football, but survivalism. We need to get like a real singer, like a real singer, like a gifted singer to lay down the Judge John Hodgman Super Podcast song. Not some BS joke singer that's out there, you know, recording goofy nonsense on their home computer. I'm talking about someone who's got a real gift.

Like John Roderick, the guy who does the theme song for My Brother, My Brother and Me. on their home computer. I'm talking about someone who's got a real gift. Like John Roderick, the guy who does the theme song for My Brother, My Brother and Me. Yeah, like John Roderick. Get John Roderick in the studio. Get that four on the floor beat. Yeah, he's got a natural disco voice too. Oh man.

I mean, he does. He's got that high vocal range. He'd do a great job. Judge John Hodgman, super podcast. Judge John Hodgman, super podcast. Pod. Pod as an imperative. Go on and pod.

Anyway, I'm at the Upright Citizens Brigade Theater on Franklin in Los Angeles, January 6th at 11 p.m. And it's going to be a blast. So come out. It'll probably cost like nothing or five dollars or something like that. So here's something that is going to cost you some money, but it'll be worth it. Jesse Thorne and I doing live Judge John Hodgman at Sketch Fest this year. Confirmed. Confirmed.

First weekend of February. February. San Francisco Sketchfest. Check out the San Francisco Sketchfest website for all the details and also all the amazing things you can also go and do and see at Sketchfest. And, you know, the last time we did a live Judge John Hodgman, it was at Sketchfest. It was fantastic. And it's going to be fantastic again.

We'll have special guests and fun times. And if you have a case in the San Francisco area that you think we ought to hear live and on stage in the San Francisco area itself, why don't you contact us by the regular channels, just by writing to Hodgman at MaximumFun.org or going to MaximumFun.org slash JJHo, where you can submit your case, where I'll personally review it. If you're in San Francisco and you want us to hear us on stage, just say, on stage in

San Francisco, or some other words that will convey to me that you want me to consider this for the live show. Yeah, please do. MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho. Even if you just know somebody in San Francisco that you think would make a good litigant, we are really keen to get your cases in the San Francisco that you think would make a good litigant, we are really keen to get your cases in the San Francisco Bay Area. And I'll be doing Jordan, Jesse, go at SF Sketch Fest too. So go to sfsketchfest.com. It is such a delightful, such a delightful festival. We're

so glad to be a part of it. I used to work for them and was super excited that I got to work for them because it's such a wonderful festival. And if you'd like to follow us on Twitter, how does that happen? Well, that's easy. You can follow Judge John Hodgman at Hodgman. You can follow Jesse Thorne at Jesse Thorne, J-E-S-S-E-T-H-O-R-N. You can like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. You can also join the MaximumFun.org Facebook group, which is very lively these days, very, very lively. And you can talk about our show on Reddit at MaximumFun.reddit.com. That's

MaximumFun.reddit.com. And on our forum at forum.maximumfun.org. And on Twitter with the hashtag JJHO, JJHO. But I make you this promise. We will never have a LinkedIn page. No, sir. That's a promise to you, the listener. And I believe it's the Facebook page where the people mostly go in order to try to name the cases, to come up with a fun pun to name the cases. This is where we go and we ask people to submit. And who named the case this time?

This week's case was named by Amy Franco. If you want to be cool like Amy Franco in the future, just go to Facebook and search for Judge John Hodgman. Get up in there. Show's produced by Julia Smith, edited by Mark McConville. We will talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Court is adorned. Maximumfun.org.

Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Listener supported.