Judge John Hodgman - Planted Evidence

Episode Date: September 20, 2017

Max files suit against his mother, Mercedes. When Mercedes sees a plant she likes out in the world, she takes a clipping home to plant in her garden. Max says this is stealing but Mercedes disagrees. She thinks plants in public spaces are fair game! Who's right? Who's wrong? Thank you to Alex Callard & Megan Hodgkiss for suggesting this week's title! To suggest a title for a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, planted evidence. Max files suit against his mother, Mercedes. When Mercedes sees a plant she likes out in the world, she takes a clipping home to plant in her garden. Max says this is stealing. Mercedes disagrees. She thinks plants in public spaces are fair game. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. He isn't Alec Holland. He will never be Alec Holland. He never was Alec Holland. He's just a ghost.

A ghost dressed in weeds. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, or whatever? Yes. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he believes that all plants should be grown from spores? I suppose so, yes.

Yes. Very well, Judge Hodgman. Max and Mercedes, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can either of you name the source of the obscure cultural reference I made as I entered the courtroom? Why don't we start with Mom. Mercedes, what is your guess? Well, I have several guesses, but I'm going to go with The Orchid Thief. The Orchid Thief by Susan Orlean, someone I met in person who's a lovely person.

Yeah. I'll put that in the guest book. Friend of the podcast, I'd say. Friend of the podcast, indeed. As. Friend of the podcast, indeed. As we say at MaxFun, friend of the cast. That's something I made up. Now, Max, son, what's your guess? All right.

I am 88% this is wrong, but I think it's something from The Secret Garden. The Secret Garden. The Secret Garden. That's a gardening-themed classic young person's novel. Sure is. I will enter that in. I'm not even going to finish writing the word garden. I got to guard, and I'm going to tell you all guesses are wrong. Ah.

Yeah. You were just guessing. I like how you guys think, though. You came up with some good possibilities, some that I never thought of. And you didn't care what I said. You were just going to make your guesses no matter what. You obviously didn't hear my saying the name Alec Holland three times.

Alec Holland, of course, as every comic book nerd yelling at his internet radio, and I do mean his nose, is the alternate ego of the, I wouldn't say superhero, but strange, shambling mass of vegetation known as Swamp Thing. No, we were thinking of that. Oh. We were talking about this. You were? You were talking with your mom about Swamp Thing?

I like you guys. I was discussing with my dad possible plant-related things, and he said Swamp Thing. He said it was something from DC Comics. Yeah, you should listen to dad. Here's a lesson to you, Max. Don't take your mom to court and listen to your dad. That's right. That's right.

Is your dad a big nerd? A lovable one. Oh, yeah. Well, you can tell him that his guess would have been right. And if he had said Swamp Thing, I would have said, right, but what issue? Obviously, it's from Saga of the Swamp Thing number 21, from the great initial run of Rebooted Swamp Thing, scripted by legendary comic book writer Alan Moore. And specifically, this is Jason Woodrue speaking of Alec Holland,

or rather of The Swamp Thing. It turns out it's revealed in this issue that the character that we know as Swamp Thing, who believes that he is a transformed botanical scientist named Alec Holland, is in fact not that. He is a sentient mass of sludge and rotting vegetation who has simply inherited Alec Holland's memories. He is a ghost dressed in weeds. Jason Woodrue, of course, being the DC villain known as the Plant Master or the Floronic Man.

Wait, the Floronic Man? The Floronic Man. He also had plant-based abilities. So I'm afraid we're going to have to hear this case. Max, you bring this case against your mom, Mercedes. By the way, I should mention that I'm up here in the great state of Maine still with Joel Mann on the dials and knobs. Hello, Joel. Hello, Judge.

Yep, this is at WERU, the local, what would you call this, freeform, wackadoo, play anything you want station? Community radio at its best. Yeah, that's basically what it is. Big fan. And Joel, of course, being the one who introduced me to, what's his name? Joe Burr and the Field Hippies. Kid Cudi and the Field Hippies. And here in the state of Maine, I see a booming business in hydroponic stores.

Yes, there's a reason for that. Oh, we'll leave that to your imagination. Maine has gone lettuce crazy. That's right. Arugula everywhere in Maine. All right. So, Max, you bring this case against your mom because you and your mom wander around and she's constantly taking clippings from plants to grow in her own garden and you're embarrassed by her. Tell me a little bit more about this. She has a habit of wherever we're going, where there are planters, like a mall or a Home Depot, per se, she will very carefully nip at them and take whatever plants she likes so that she can grow them and claim them as her own.

I think this is blatant theft. Claim them as her own. So you think that this is both about physical and intellectual property. Yeah, that's right. Yes. Does she actually say, I invented this plant? I invented the idea of this plant. But I bet she thinks it.

Mercedes, do you deny these charges? Are you clipping from mall planters to bring home plants on your own? Judge, I do take clippings. I admit it. However, if I can interject, it's what I feel is going to be thrown away or is neglected, or if it's something really, really tempting. Then it's okay to steal it?

Well, no, no. I just, I don't steal. I nip. I, what would I be the right word? I'm like Johnny Appleseed. I just take a little bit and I propagate. Well, you're kind of the opposite of a Johnny Appleseed. Yeah, that's exactly. Thank you, Max. You can jump right in there. Sorry. Mom's logic there. Johnny Appleseed, of course, did not go around taking clippings from apple trees all over the country to go then back to his own personal orchard to sow them and claim them for his own. He was going around spreading seeds.

So that that metaphor did not work for your case, Mercedes. Where do you guys live? In Hinsdale, Illinois. Thank you. I did need the state on that one. I appreciate it. Thank you. So Mercedes, I do not have a green thumb of any kind. So I don't know what the process is when it comes to grabbing a sample of a succulent or whatever in a mall planter. Tell me what your process is. Well, I will. You'll be walking through the Hinsdale Galleria with your son. That's right.

And not necessarily with him. I'll see something that I like. And right now, succulents are what are interesting me. And I will just take a leaf. I'll just take one little leaf. That's all. I mean, on succulents, that's all you need. Sometimes I'll take a um, and just to see if it grows or not. And so far I've been pretty successful. So, and do you, do you carry around, uh, pruning shears and a dry bag? No, not actually, you know, there's, I forget sometimes that I've actually taken and I've been stabbed by my, um, own cuttings. You've been stabbed by your own succulent?

That's right. Perhaps that's just what you deserve. This court will decide. So you're just telling me you walk up to a planter in a mall, and you see what kind of succulent. Give me a name of a succulent that you like, a good one. Oh, I wish I would know the name. I'm not that good.

But, I mean, there's so many different ones. They look like little rocks and little pebbles. Actually, my older son showed me, gave me some succulents and that's what started the whole interest. If I see something that's really interesting, I'll just take a leaf and I'll put it in some soil and see what happens. So far,

like I said, it's been pretty good. First of all, you're not clipping them off. You're just tearing the plant apart. You're just freehanding it. You're just pulling a piece off apart no no you're just free handing it you're just pulling right and i know people that actually have bags and and there's all kinds of instructions on how to do it on the internet but i i just take a little piece and i put it in my person and i never hurt the parent plant when you say you know people are you part of some sort of

plant stealing cabal she's their queen no part of some sort of plant-stealing cabal? Shh. She's their queen. No. Part of the freaking succulent-stealing shadowy underground. There you go. No, you know, it really is. As I've taken more pieces, I've wanted to know, you know, what will grow or not, and I look it up. And there's people that have suggestions on what to do.

I haven't gotten as far as some other people where they take bags and paper towels and scissors. I just nip. You're talking about people who are stealing bags and rolls of paper towels and trying to get those to grow too? Is your trial and error been more or less, hmm, this succulent when replanted will regrow. This gold chain that I swiped does not regrow. No. No, never. I don't feel like I'm stealing.

I really honestly think I'm propagating. So it sounds like you're at the beginning of your alleged crime spree. It doesn't sound like you've been doing this your whole life. Because you don't even know a name of a succulent. Well, succulents are new to me. Madam, don't even know a name of a succulent. Well, succulents are new to me. Madam, you don't know the name of a succulent. Right. No, succulents are new.

And when you talk about transplanting it, you just talk about sticking it in dirt and seeing what happens. No, I've researched. I've researched. Okay. I've researched what to do, but I'm really bad with names. Plant names and human names. Well, my name is Judge John Hodgman, and this is my bailiff, Jesse Thorne, in case you've forgotten already.

Please don't put us in dirt. We're human. How long has this been going on, Max? She has been doing this since I was a young child. I'd say this is perhaps a decade-old habit. Oh, and how old are you now? I am 21. Oh, Max, you're still a young child.

Enjoy your time. Thank you. Enjoy your time. Will do. And so this has been going on for a decade. What made you send in this dispute now other than the fact that I invented this podcast with Jesse? Well, this has been something we have always argued about.

And whenever I see her doing this, I feel like, oh, my God, like it's a shock, you know, because my mother is a rule follower. She is a responsible adult. She believes in like morals and things. So to see her blatantly reaching into a planter and taking something is shocking to me. And so I've had to confront her about this, and she refuses to admit that this is theft. Let the record show that Max said that his mother believes in morals and things. You know, she believes in morals and junk.

I believe in morals and things, but only when I get one of those 15% off coupons in the mail. Yeah. Then you got to go down to the Hinsdale Plaza. Yeah. Pick up some cheap morals and maybe a pocket full of succulents on your way home. Have you done any research, Max, into the property rights with regard to public spaces and malls and so forth. Well, the thing is, I don't think I have to do research. It's pretty cut and dry.

It's not ours. It's the property of whatever real estate company owns the mall or owns the Arboretum or owns the Home Depot. Max, you're right. And let the record show that was a dumb question that I asked. Oh. First in the history of the podcast that I asked a dumb question. Absolutely right. I mean, Mercedes, you wouldn't dispute that these plants are not your props. That's my 46 year old slang for property.

I would argue that a lot of these plants are going to be, you know, thrown away. And I've actually seen it. I've actually seen the plants, perennials even, being thrown out at the end of the season. People have no respect for them. I'm just showing them the proper respect. I'm telling them, don't worry, I will take care of you. There will be a piece of you living in my garden. Are you talking to these plants all the time like this? Is that what you're saying?

As you tear off their limbs to take home, to plant in your garden? Don't worry. Forever you will live with me. Absolutely. So you're saying that they throw these plants away. When you say perennials, you're talking about plants that come back. Right.

I mean, people don't know what they're doing. My mom once explained to me the difference between annuals and perennials. Annuals are plants that just grow for one season. That's it. Perennials are zombie plants. They'll go to ground in the winter and then come back. Correct? That's right.

That's right. But succulents, they're living all the time. Succulents are cactuses, right? They are. They're 100% hardy, year-round, ground-cover cactuses. No, no, not here in Hinsdale. No, they die. Oh, they die?

They die. If you leave them out, they die because we have cold winters. Are they perennial? Well, no, not in Hinsdale. No. Thank you for answering the question. So this whole thing about throwing away perennials is bogus. Well, no, no.

It's just a partial part of the answer because, I mean, they do throw away succulents because they die. Right. I mean, I don't. I keep them. I put them inside. I learned the hard way that they die during the winter. Let's take a quick recess to find out about some of the other awesome shows from MaximumFun.org. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you

by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join, and you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel.

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Save up to 25% this Memorial Day from the 18th until the 27th. Visit MadeInCookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N-Cookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N-Cookware.com. Court's back in session. This episode, planted evidence. Max has accused his mother, Mercedes, of stealing plants. She says she's simply clipping them. She's not doing any harm. Who's right? Who's wrong? Let's find out. Max, was there a particular instance that happened? You mentioned the Home Depot. What happened there?

This is a store where they sell plants. There's a whole section of the store that is dedicated only to plants that you can buy out of pots. And I catch my mom pinching off a little piece of like a, I don't even remember if it was a cycling drum, but a little piece of a plant and slipping it into her purse.

I never slip it into my purse. Yes, you have found bits of succulents in your purse. Yes, but those are succulents. You steal so many, you can't even remember. Mercedes, did you steal, excuse me, I'll rephrase. Thank you. Did the defendant take a clipping of a plant of any kind in Home Depot that which plant was for sale?

Yes or no? Yes or no, madam? Oh, yes. But there is a reason. I mean, I buy a lot of things from the book. No further questions, Your Honor. Oh, wait, that's me. But there is a reason. I mean, I buy a lot of things from the book. No further questions, Your Honor. Oh, wait, that's me. I do buy a lot of plants and stuff. Sometimes they have plants that I want that are contained within other plants that I don't want. So I just need just a little bit of that one.

But I'm buying a lot of plants, too, at the same time. So the defense is that you've bought enough that you deserve a freebie. No. Do they have a card there that they punch off the number of plants that you deserve a freebie. No. Do they have a card there that they punch off the number of plants that you've bought? And when you get 10 punches, they say, just grab a handful of whatever on your way out. No? Yes or no?

No, no, you're absolutely right. Max, has she ever gotten in trouble for this? Not yet, but I feel it's an inevitability. I never hide anything. I'm not- You slip it into your purse. No, I don't. I am not going into corners or skulking.

I'm actually right in front of everybody. It's not like, if they've been said to me like, you know, stop, ma'am, leave that there, I would leave it. But nobody's stopping me. I'm just taking a little piece. And, you know, I see a lot of that kind of refuse on the floor already. I mean, I pick it up anyways. Well, why don't you just pick up the floor leaves, the dirty floor leaves? Sometimes they're not what I want. They're not good enough for you? What are you after? What's the top three of plants that you wish to,

let's just say, liberate and replant in your own garden? Well, there's always something different, but I'm really into the coneflowers and I like the seed heads. Into the what? Coneflowers. There's all kinds of different colors. And that one, I don't take any part.

I just take the seed. If there's a seed head, I'll take a seed. So a seed isn't a part? Well, it is. Yes, it is a part. Gosh. Let the record show, it is a part. Gosh. Let the record show, parts are not parts.

Buying stuff entitles you to steal a little bit once in a while. And if you don't act guilty, then you aren't guilty. I don't know what to say except that I really honestly do not hide anything. I just, I take a little piece. I don't hurt the entire plant. It's just a teeny tiny piece, maybe an inch. A seed head. Yeah, I understand. Yeah, I don't hurt the plant.

Your crimes are well described and on the record. Now it's up to me to decide whether or not they should continue. Max? Yes? What do you care? Obviously your mom's not doing a lot of harm here. She's not killing plants. Are you afraid that she's going to face repercussions,

or is she not the person that you thought she was? Well, that's just it. I don't care. I think she should fight the power, steal as many flowers as you want, but I just want her to admit that this is theft. She raised me right. She raised me to believe in owning up to who you are, and I think she has to admit to herself that she is a plant thief.

Oh, Judge, I have suckled a viper to my breast. I can't believe he's saying this. Ah! Ah! Oh, no. This boy who I have loved well accuses me. And not only that, he accused me in front of my younger daughter

and now she, when I go to the store, she says, Mommy, are you going to steal that too? Are you going to steal that plant? How old is she? Eight. Oh, what fun you have in your family. Let me ask you, do you ever steal or, let me say, liberate any carnivorous plants, like a Venus flytrap or a suckling breast viper?

She actually stole one carnivorous plant, but she didn't know what it was called, so she named it Audrey 2. so she named it Audrey too. Mercedes, when you hear your son describe how he feels about your plant liberation front, how does that make you feel? When he says, it's changed my mind about my mom, how do you feel? I feel that he is 21.

I feel that anything I, you know, he's looking for chinks in the armor, and he thinks that this is one, and it isn't. I honestly feel like I'm doing good for the world. I understand maybe the Home Depot might be pushing it too far, but I've seen plants in neighbors' yards that, you know, they don't even know what they're doing, and they just kill them. And they're gone. That beautiful plant gone, and I could have saved it with just a little nip.

She's hiding behind altruism. Yeah, you're saying other people's bad actions justify your bad actions. Not at all. I want to go back to your statement really quickly about he's 21 because i presumed initially that to mean uh a phrase that i'm going to make up right now he's 21 my job is done which is to say i don't care what he thinks he should go live his own life and get out of my business but you went on to say he's looking for chinks in the armor is max newly critical of you now that he is empowered with the right to drink, vote, drive a car, and legally get medical plants for his own use? Maybe not in Hinsdale, Illinois,

but definitely in Maine? Absolutely. I used to be a star in his eyes, and now we've come to this, where he's accusing me of stealing. And in front of others. Right, in front of younger children. Exactly, and here. Mm-hmm. Max, are you trying to distance yourself from your mom

and prove your adulthood and your own individual nature? Judge, not at all. I hang out with my mother possibly too much for a man of my age. Go on. In fact, after this, we're going out to get sushi together. Oh, I like these mom-son dates. What other things do you do? Oh, my God.

What else? We saw Atomic Blonde together a few weeks ago. We go into the city, do some shopping. We hang out a lot at malls, which is where she gets most of her plants, but also where we get our good times and bonding. So this is not about me distancing or attacking the silverback. This is about me wanting her to acknowledge herself, to be herself. What's better, hot dog on a stick or orange Julius?

Oh, neither. Come on. Those are peasant mall foods. What's the best mall food? You gotta go for either an Auntie Anne's pretzel or a Cinnabon. Oh, no. Like the Royals do at the Piccadilly

Arcade. Exactly. Max, when you're going through the mall with your mom, and she's just spending all of her time looking for plants to liberate, instead of talking to you about your love of sugary foods and Charlize Theron movies, how does that make you feel? Well, it's to say the least disconcerting because she does get a very determined look in her eyes

and I can tell she's scouting the area. And it's just, I feel almost an instant dread because I know what's coming. And sometimes I don't even notice that she does it. She can be very stealthy. It's not until we're in the car and she opens up her purse and succulents just spill out.

Oh, my goodness. You pick out a few, but I'm exaggerating for effect. But there are several succulents in her purse that I haven't even noticed her taking. So she is a more devious thief than she'd like to let on. Mercedes, you love plants more than you love your own son. Admit it. True. admit it true no you know judge i'm sure that you know how dramatic people of this age can be and he's being very dramatic it is true that there are times when i see something that i like and

we talk about it and he's like but he's he's accused me before I even take anything of looking at things or honing in on a plant when I haven't even noticed it. He's the one who brings me to the plant itself. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's a pretty plant, yeah. But the other time we were at the mall just recently, he's like, oh, you want to take that plant, don't you? And I didn't even know what he was talking about. Max, that's entrapment. Exactly. I didn't even know what he was talking about.

Max, that's entrapment. Exactly. You're grooming victims for her so that you can blame her when she takes them. Disgusting, Max. All right, let's take a look at the evidence here. The fruits, semi-literally, of your labor. I guess not the fruits, but the limbs of your labor or the thorns of your labor. Now that I'm looking at all these thorny succulents you got, all these pictures of these beautiful, beautiful plants are going to be available on the Instagram account for Judge John Hodgman, which is Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman.

You can take a look there or at MaximumFun.org, the Judge John Hodgman page, which you can always get to by going to bit.ly, Judge John Hodgman. Okay. Look at all these beautiful seconds. What are they all called? Green One. Twisty One. I do know one that's called Little Pearls. Kermit the Frog Hands.

Seastalks. Spiky. Are these all from From mall planters? Do they all be in life No, no In captivity? Mm-hmm This is a point of contention, Judge She claims that only

5% of the garden Is from places That she has stolen I'd like to up that number To 25 No, no, no, no, no No way Based on what?

Based on, yeah Based on experience Yeah, that's not Anecdotal evidence No Anec anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence. Exactly. Shacoos.

No way. I have complete faith that you're both lying. So it's between 5% and 25%. I'm going to say 15%. So what am I looking at here? If not plants that you took. No, I have some that have been given to me, some that I purchased, and some that I've taken

lips of. But what's the point of your showing me this, just how beautiful your garden is? No, see, I mean, I can propagate. I mean, I'm not killing them. They're surviving. They're thriving. And if anybody wants some, I'm always willing to give them. And actually, I've done that a lot.

I've given my plants to other people. I understand. And photos five and six here, it looks like these are some of the clippings. You have a before and after picture. Am I seeing this correctly? Yes. Yes. So all the clippings in photos five are clippings that have come to you from other places, let's say, from friends, from malls, from movie theaters, outside of movie theaters, cafes. And then the after picture is they're all blooming. But do you see how small they are? I mean, I'm not taking a big piece.

They're just a teeny tiny leaf. They're about the size of your thumb. Right. Yeah. Okay. And I presume you have an average size thumb. Yes. When did you learn presume you have an average-sized thumb. Yes. When did you learn that you could do this?

It was purely by accident. I was at a children's party at a zoo, for the succulents anyways. I learned about other plants before, but for the succulents, I was at a children's party at the zoo, and there was a very sad-looking, neglected cacti, and a note of it was literally on the pot. I picked it up, and I put it in my purse. Hang on, ma'am. Ma'am, hang on one second. Everyone within the sound of my voice, all of you pet ants out there who are now about

to write in a letter to correct Mercedes because you referred to a singular cactus as a cacti. Stop it. Oh, oops. Don't do that. Resist that impulse. Okay. I know, but you said there was one lonely cacti. Oh, sorry. One lonely cactus by himself. I'm not trying to correct you. I'm just saying, look, we. One lonely cactus by himself. Right. I'm not trying to correct you. I'm just saying, look, we're all just talking off the cuff here.

If we say something that's a little bit wrong or off, I don't need 25 letters about it, you guys. But I appreciate your writing, Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. I love you.

Okay, so there you were at a zoo. Right. Some boring children's party. Yes. You spied a dying cactus. I did. I am going to bring it to life.

But how? Tear a piece off of it. I put it in my purse, and a week later it stabbed me. And I looked at it, and I was like, oh. My daughter had made me a little pot. I put it in the pot, and I left left it there and it kept on toppling over and I kept on putting it in. And one day, maybe three weeks later.

Wait, was the pot toppling over because the leaf was trying to escape and get back to its home? I noticed that it rooted and I was so excited. I repotted it and it grew a little node of its own and I nipped that one off and I I put another pot, and that one is enormous.

And the original one grew two more nodes. So I'm at like four cacti from that. I mean, cactuses or cacti. I don't know anymore. I'm so confused. They both are accepted. A little cactus. And they've been growing, and that's what started my obsession with growing them.

And that was, do you accept, 10 years ago or so? Well, no, that was my succulent. My normal- Just stealing other plants. Other type of plants. I was walking past my neighbor's house, maybe three or four blocks away, and there was a lambs ear that was literally falling out and crawling towards the sidewalk. And it had looked like little roots.

And I nipped that one and I brought it to my house and it grew to over 20 plants now. That was your first victim? That was my first rescue. Semantics, ma'am. Semantics. I understand. All right. So, Max, what would you have me order if I were to find your favorite?

Now, I don't want her to change a thing. I love her just the way she is. She can keep on stealing plants. But I need her to admit to herself and to me and to the podcast audience that she is a plant thief, that what she is doing is stealing. Never. And Mercedes, if I were to rule in your favor? I would want him to tell my younger daughter, his sister, that indeed his mom is not stealing, but rescuing and propagating, much like Johnny Appleseed. And I would want him to apologize for this accusation that he's put on me.

And now he makes me feel bad. Now I actually have to think twice before looking at plants and malls or properties. So you want a public clearing of your name? Yes, I do. I do. And celebration as a plant vigilante. And let it please be known that I never take anything from any kind of like the Morton Arboretum or any kind of place like that. I never go to people's gardens and I take things. No, it's just things that are like in public parkways that I think they're going to die anyways. All right. I think I've heard everything I need to. No, it's just things that are like in public parkways that I think they're going to die anyways. All right.

I think I've heard everything I need to. I'm going to go into my arboretum to render my decision. I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Max, how do you feel about your chances in the case? I am fairly certain I'm going to win this one. Why is that? It's a very cut-and-dry case.

You know, it's right and wrong, and she is firmly in the wrong. You also have the certitude of young adulthood. There you go. Yes. Mercedes, how do you feel about your chances? Well, Jesse, I found out recently that my son has brought me before in a small claims court with you guys, and I feel I already lost once. I feel that I'm going to be losing again. Wow, really? You're that pessimistic?

I'm afraid so. Certain words that the judge has said made me feel that the verdict will not be a good one for me. He likes weird moms, though. I think his weird dad said he. I don't think he's a sexist. And I don't think I'm a weird mom. Mercedes, do you think that the whole story here is that your child has not yet learned

that all things die? Yes. Yes. Yes. I refuse to acknowledge it. Guys, what's your favorite thing to do at the ball together? Is it the last call? Oh, no, it's another brand name. You know what?

I think just walking with him is my favorite thing. Oh. Isn't she lovely? We'll see what Judge John Hodgman thinks about that when we come back in just a minute. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast,

The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the

halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-R. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky Let me give it a try Okay If you need a laugh and you're on the go

Call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I It'll never fit No, it will Let me try If you need a laugh and you're on the go Try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O We are so close Stop podcasting yourself Try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close.

Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. You may be seated. For some reason, while I was in my chambers, I started thinking of the Stevie Wonder song, Isn't She Lovely?

And I thought about that in terms of your mother, for some reason, Max. Wow. And the answer is no, she is not lovely. She's a thief. No, no, no, no, no. Wait a minute, wait a minute. That goes too far.

It goes too far. Not everything that your mom is doing is wrong. And I struggle to find a crux here with regard to your generational relationship. Because you are 21. You are a budding grown-up. But you are also spending a tremendous amount of time hanging around with your mom. And there's a, that's natural. There's a, there's a, I remember from my own time after my teenage years were done and

I was well into college, I started coming back to my parents in a way like sort of reassessing them and feeling grateful to them and wanting to spend time with them sort of as an adult. And there might be a little of that, like i'm a grown-up now when i was a kid and you were stealing plants i couldn't say anything but now i've got agency so i'm gonna wave my finger at you maybe your mom's right a little bit about that about that drama maybe and you know at 21 you may not be a weird mom yet mercedes, but you could be moving in that direction. That's when my mom started to go weird because I'm an only child. And once they hit that empty nest period, my mom started to get into weird hobbies and stuff and started getting odd and obsessed with the musical cats. I don't know.

I don't know what was going on with her. She was dealing with a lot. But you've been doing this for 10 years. So this obviously predates, like you were doing this when your children were young and continue to be young. So there's not an empty nest cultivating of strange hobbies aspect here. It's not generational shift per se. There are those tensions there, but not one where I could really isolate a crux and i'm forced to conclude that the crux here that is defining this behavior is that um you're not a moral person you're ethically inconsistent you here are the defenses that you have launched for why this is

okay they're going to die anyway and i am basically the oscar schindler of these plants i've spent a lot of money so i'm allowed to steal a thing i have not gotten caught nor do i act guilty therefore i'm not guilty uh the people around me are treating plants much worse than i am and therefore uh i am ethically superior to them and i can bend the rules to my will for a greater good. Ouch. Those defenses are much more troubling to me than this behavior. It may be that you wish just simply to win this case. And so you came up with some, but they felt pretty much off the cuff.

And in the moment, I don't think that there were prepared defenses. And in the moment, I don't think that there were prepared defenses. I think that you have a passion for healthy plants and you caught the bug. And now you want to get those succulents growing in your backyard so bad. And when you see a plant that isn't doing so hot and is a little unloved, you feel moved to liberate it and give it a better life with you. It's savior. If you only had one 21-year-old son, I would say, 21 and done kid, stay out of your mom's business. But you have an eight year old daughter. And I think you need to be conscious of these kinds of flexible moral self-justifications,

uh, because they could be used to justify behavior that is a lot more problematic than swiping some plants. The answer to whether this is right or wrong is obvious. You would never go into someone's garden without their permission and take a clipping, but it is very common among gardeners to ask, may I take a clipping of this plant? And the answer is almost always yes. You do not go to the manager of Home Depot to say, may I take a clipping of this plant? Because you anticipate that they would say,

no thank you, that would be stealing, buy it. Therefore you come up with all these other justifications that allow you to do it anyway. So you need to get rid of this bad faith in your life. If you came to this court and said to me what one great weird mom said to me once and has resonated with me ever since, and this was about a completely different situation that I've talked about on the podcast before, so I won't go into the details of it. But if you just said to me, I know it is wrong, but I'm doing it anyway, I'd probably like, yeah, you go.

Because who cares? You're just clipping some plants. But I fear, Mercedes, that while you are exceedingly lovely, this is a time for a hard truth. You can't be stealing pieces of plants from places that sell plants. That has to stop. Tout de suite.

Get your hands off the Home Depot fronds. Now, if a plant is like trailing out underneath the picket fence into the public walkway of a sidewalk or whatever go for it and i'm even gonna let you pick plants from the mall because that is one where it's like yeah that's the saddest place for a plant to be that's one where i fully accept the vigilante defense. You know that they're destined for the dumpster. You've watched it happen. I picture you standing there watching them toss those dead succulents into the dumpster

and a single tear going down your cheek. It's a sad place for them to be, and malls are highly problematic in this society anyway. That's one where I think you can go ahead and do it. The situation is gray enough that you can go ahead and do it. The situation is gray enough that you can go ahead and do it and if you get caught, you get caught and you'll learn a lesson. But don't lie when they come to you in the mall.

Don't tell them you're a vigilante. Don't tell them that you're a moral plant saver. Just look them in the eye and say, I wanted it. I know it was wrong, but I did it anyway. What are you going to do about it, Mall Copper? And then book it fast. I find in favor of Max.

Yay. You have heard my order. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge Sean Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom. Mercedes, you were right. The judge found against you, though he did make some significant exemptions.

How do you feel? Chastised, but willing to lead a cleaner life. Max, how about you? I feel vindicated. Should we go get hot dog on a stick? Let's do it. Max Mercedes, thanks for joining us on a stick? Let's do it. Max Mercedes, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another thrilling Judge John Hodgman case in the books. I am personally Judge Hodgman. Off to the mall for some plant stealing And cheese on a stick. I got to yell at a mom, and I also would like to go to a food court soon. So let's someday, you and I, when I'm in L.A., let's go to a food court and have a meetup at a food court. Have you ever had romantic feelings about the employees of Hot Dog on a Stick in their weird outfits? I don't know why I feel that way, but I absolutely do. Sounds to me like you are about 98% done on a charming, quirky, independent romantic comedy film. It would be called The Big Stick.

Okay. Before we get into swift justice, we want to thank Alex Callard and Megan Hodgkiss, who named this week's episode Planted Evidence. If you'd like to name a future episode, you can like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. That's where we usually ask for submissions. You can find the evidence photos from this episode on the Judge John Hodgman page of Maximum Fun website and on Instagram. Our Instagram handle is Judge John Hodgman. Follow us on Twitter. He's at Jesse Thorne. I'm at Hodgman, H-O-D-G-M-A-N. No Ian Hodgman.

Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets. Hashtag JJ Ho. And check out the Maximum Fun subreddit to discuss this episode. I'm going to sneak into your Twitter account and change your handle to what my dad calls you, which is your friend Hausman. That would be fine. This week's episode recorded by Nick Statina at Invigorate Recordings in Downer Grove, Illinois, and Joel Mann at WERU in Orland, Maine. Our producer, Jennifer Marmer. Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick and decisive judgment.

What is the maximum acceptable number of times, Marcus asks, to hit the snooze button in a two-person sleeping situation? First of all, I move that we change the term marriage to a two-person sleeping situation. And second of all, so I'm presuming that they both are getting up at the same time, right? Gotta be. First of all, I would like to say that my marriage, because of the presence of small children,

is typically a four to five person sleeping situation. Fair enough. I'm going to say one snooze per purse. I am against the snooze button. Get up. You set a time to get up, you get up at that time, but it is healthy for you to wake up slowly rather than get out of bed right away. So I think a reasonable thing to do is set your alarm a little bit earlier than you need to get up, go through one snooze cycle, start to wake up, hit the alarm, start to wake up,

and gradually get yourself out of bed at that time. But don't go back to sleep after that. And each person gets to do that once. So I guess one of the weird bonuses of a two-person sleeping situation is you get to sleep a little bit later and be a little lazier. Tim says, if I give up chocolate for Lent, I mean candy. My wife says that chocolate should apply to anything made of chocolate, including ice cream and cake. I'll admit that chocolate chips are a gray area. I think she's applying too broad of a standard. What do you think, Judge?

Well, first of all, Tim, you're wrong. Chocolate is not candy. Chocolate is its own thing. I do not have a sweet tooth. Everyone knows this. I've said it many times. I have an alcohol molar, but I do enjoy chocolate because it is not just sweet crystallized sugar, which is what candy is. Chocolate is richer, savorier, has more layers of flavor and many, many different varieties. It is its own thing. So you made a mistake there, Tim. Second of all, Tim, you're wrong.

If you are going to give up something to irrationally honor a religious principle, I'm saying irrationally because it's a matter of faith, not of reason, you've got to do it consistently. If you give up chocolate for Lent, obviously you're going to give up something that's made out of chocolate, including chocolate cake and chocolate ice cream. Third of all, Tim, you're wrong. Chocolate chips are not a gray area at all. How could you even say that? They're just chips of chocolate. That's all they are, chocolate. at all. How could you even say that?

They're just chips of chocolate. That's all they are, chocolate. Tim, your wife is not applying too broad of a standard. She's absolutely right. Get right with your god, Tim, and stop eating chocolate for Lent. All of it. Even mole's? Yes, even mole's.

That's about it for this week's episode. Submit your cases to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO or email Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. No case is too small. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.