Judge John Hodgman - Probst-bate Court

Episode Date: January 14, 2026

Annie brings the case against her friend, David. They belong to a Survivor Fantasy League of two people: Annie and David. Annie says David isn’t playing fair. He’s withholding a point that is technically hers. David, keeper of the Almighty Spreadsheet, is sticking to his guns. Is Annie abdicating responsibility for fair play, or is David being a weenie? And IS a below-ground garage actually a portal to hell? All these questions and more on this week’s episode of Judge John Hodgman. The Tribe has spoken! With Expert Witness, Relationship Coach, and two-time Survivor contestant Francesca Hogi!Francesca watched this season of Survivor just for us, so make sure to check out her book, HOW TO FIND TRUE LOVE. She's also on Instagram @DearFranny and @TrueLoveSocietyBay Area! It's not too late to get tickets for our show at San Francisco Sketchfest this weekend! We'll be at Marine's Memorial on Sunday 1/18! Tickets are moving fast so get them while you can!BROOKLYN! Join Judge John Hodgman and Bailiff Jesse Thorn LIVE at The Bell House for NIGHT COURT (no, not that one)! Get your tickets here: Friday, March 6, Saturday, March 7Thanks to reddit user u/WortlessGBRacker for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at reddit.com/r/maximumfun!Have a question that you can’t settle? No dispute is too small for the honorable Judge John Hodgman and Bailiff Jesse Thorn! Submit your cases directly to the court at: https://maximumfun.org/jjhoFollow Judge John Hodgman on:YouTube: @judgejohnhodgmanpodInstagram: @judgejohnhodgmanTikTok: @judgejohnhodgmanpodBluesky: @judgejohnhodgmanReddit: r/maximumfunPlease consider donating to Al Otro Lado. Al Otro Lado provides legal assistance and humanitarian aid to refugees, deportees, and other migrants trapped at the US-MX border. Donate at alotrolado.org/letsdosomething. Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Become a member to unlock special bonus episodes, discounts on our merch, and more by joining us at: maximumfun.org/join!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bailiff, Jesse Thorne. This week, Probstbate Court. Annie brings the case against her friend David. Annie and David have a survivor fantasy pool. Annie says that David is withholding a point that her team has earned. David is winning the pool right now by a lot. The one point will not make a difference. But David says the rules are clear. Annie doesn't deserve this point. Annie says that David is, quote, just being a weenie. Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide, please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. 1727, Englishwoman Helen Morrison makes history as the first woman to place a personal ad in a newspaper and is committed to a mental asylum for three weeks as a result. bailiff, Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in. Annie, David, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you, God, or whatever?

I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that unlike Bayliff, Jesse Thorne, his friend Tyler from college, did not win the amazing race? I do. Yes. Then later found Sunbasket. Oh, yeah. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

I make my sunbaskets at night. Thanks very much, Cheryl, arthritis life, Cheryl, a famous listener to this podcast. And we have some other wonderful listeners to this podcast who are now in court together. Annie and David, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can either of you name, I'm going to go ahead and tell you the book that I was quoting as I entered this courtroom. Annie, why don't we start with you? I'm light on books this year, but my guess is going to be Encyclopedia Britannica. Encyclopedia Britannica.

I'm writing it down. If you're watching Judge John Hodgman pod on YouTube, you can see I'm not lying. I'm writing it down right now Encyclopedia Britannica. All right, David, what's your guest? What's your favorite book? Oh, hang on a second, David. Annie, so the end of the year, as we were recording this, your light on books. And believe me, I don't blame you.

I've only read about a quarter of Moby Dick all year. That's it. Oh, no, I read, I read Scripples by Judith Krantz. But what's your favorite TV show or movie or something that you really enjoyed? This year. Well, my favorite TV show always is Survivor. Survivor, all right, on brand. Yes.

Mm-hmm. I've been watching on Netflix, the show Nobody Wants This, which is like a nice, fun, light-hearted rom-com. I think that's my favorite new edition this year. It's a comedy about falling in love. Yeah. Hmm, I wonder if we'll be talking about that later. All right, David, what's your guess?

Your favorite book of the year, or you can pick a movie or whatever else. It's not Survivor. Okay. No offense. My guess is going to be vacation land now available on paperback wherever books are sold. Here we go. By Judge John Hodgman himself. by Judge John Hodgman.

Flattery will get you everywhere. Everywhere. I watched The Pit. I recently watched The Pit. Sure. I had to cover my eyes for a good portion of it, but a great show would recommend. Yeah.

Jesse Thorne, you watched The Pit on HBO Max? I've heard that one great show is The Pit, but I haven't seen it. Oh, yeah. It's a great show. Pitt, I think, is short for Pittsburgh. It's a, it's, it's, it's, it's, And it's about a guy played by our friend from the thrilling Adventure Hour, Craig Kikowsky, who goes to the hospital. That's the whole show.

John, my understanding, I'm looking at a piece of paper here. Yeah, good for you. It's not an unrelated piece of paper, but I'm looking at a piece of paper here. It says that the pit is based on that time we woke up and wandered out of our hotel in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and the Oscar Meyer WeinerMobile was right there. That wasn't, just waiting for us. A remarkable morning in Pittsburgh, but no, the pit is about Craig Kikowsky getting a medical procedure in Pittsburgh. And also Noah Wiley is there. All right.

All guesses are wrong. So we are going to hear the case. The answer, if you wanted to know, Annie and David, is I was reading to you a short fact collected in this wonderful book that I've been reading called, I lied. I haven't only been reading scruples by Judith Krantz and Moby Dick. How to find true love. unlock your romantic flow and create lasting relationships by Francesca Hogi. Annie or David, do you know the name Francesca Hogi by any chance? It's familiar, yes.

Yeah. Two-time survivor contestant, Francesca Hogi. Seems to me like you've already lost the case, David, if you didn't know that name. Yeah. Because, well, we'll talk more about Francesca later. But in the meantime, Annie, you brought the case against David. What justice do you seek in this fake courtroom? So I'm seeking a two-prong order.

Two-prong order, Jesse. List of prongs, one at a time. Okay. Let's hear the prongs. Number one, I want my second point, which I am entitled to. Number two, for his general attitude this season, I would say he's being a sore winner. and I think I'm entitled to 50 bonus points in punitive damages. Well, look, I am inclined to rule in your favor because you got as close as anyone

to this obscure cultural reference when you guessed Survivor, because I was quoting from a book by a Survivor contestant. But that said, I think we're getting ahead of ourselves a little bit before I started awarding you points because I don't even know what you're talking about. I don't watch Survivor. I'm a traitor's guy. Sorry, everyone in the world. but you are part with David, your friend of a Survivor Fantasy League.

What does that mean, Annie? All right. So it's two-member league, just the two of us. Survivor League is. So it's more of a Survivor Fantasy Marriage. Yeah, sure, yes. So the way that it works is we have a draft. It's like any other fantasy sport.

We have a draft at the beginning of this season. You really are presuming a lot of them. We have a draft at the beginning of the season, and we pick, we take all of the players and we go one at a time and we pick which ones we want to have on our fantasy team. And then we have a point structure that has gotten increasingly more elaborate. As the season goes along, we earn points for our players all the way up until the season finale and when the winner is crowned on the show. And then the winner is crowned in our pool as well. Got it. So you and David are friends.

You are not, you're not in a fantasy marriage or a marriage of any. kind. No. Your friends, and you join us from Portland, Maine. Is that where you live? Yes, yes. Aren't you very lucky? You're not in the solar-powered studios of W-E-R-U in Orland, Maine. You're somewhere else. Yes, I think we're on Casco Street in downtown Portland. Okay. I hope you're right. I hope you're right, then you know where you are. Yes. David, Annie, let me see if I understand this correctly. And Jesse, you will correct me if I'm wrong because you understand sports. Survivor is the television show, a very famous reality show, a competition game show. Regular people go to an island and they engage in various

competitions. It starts with usually three teams on a remote island and they're physically and emotionally and mentally taxing competitions. People get eliminated one by one until there's one survivor. So far so good, David? Yes. So far so good, Annie? Yes. So far so good mystery guest. I'm getting a come see, come saw wave. Yeah, okay. All right, maybe, maybe not. We'll see. We'll talk to that. I'll get corrected later, I'm sure. You are watching the season that is currently on, which I think is season 5,000 or something. And when all of the contestants are announced at the beginning of the season, before anyone is eliminated, you each draft to your fantasy team, you pick players that you think are going to go all the way. Yes or no? Yes, Annie? Yes, David? Yes, correct. Okay, good. Thank you. And then. As they perform well or poorly, you either win points or you lose points until, indeed, in your Portland, Maine, fantasy, friendship league, only one of you remains. Is that right?

Correct. We make it all the way to the final, and then we tally up the points. And then whoever has the most points is the champion. And the winner gets to stay in Maine and the loser has to move to New Hampshire. Is that correct? Correct. Well, last season. Not this season.

We're not doing that season. It's not going well for me. David, we haven't heard much from you other than some wonderful chuckles. Why don't you tell us how long you've been doing this game with your friend Annie? Sure. So Annie actually introduced me to Survivor, I would say, 2017-ish. And so I was hooked pretty quickly. And then during the pandemic, I watched about 30 seasons in maybe 40 days.

And so I got really into it, had a little bit of time on my hands. And so after season 40, there was about a year gap from when they stopped making Survivor just because of the pandemic, the logistics didn't work out. Right. So starting in season 41, we started doing our Fantasy League. And then we've been doing it every season since. We're on season 49 right now. Okay, so you've been doing it for eight seasons consistently. Correct.

Survivor came back. She's won four seasons and I've won four seasons. Oh, wow. Yeah. You're in a deadlock now. Is that correct? That's correct. Wow.

And I'm looking at Exhibit A in our evidence when this obviously is a photo of a score sheet that you use to score the progress so far in season 49. We have David's picks on the left-hand side, Annie's picks on the right-hand side. This is obviously available at our show page at maximum fund.org or our social media, or if you're watching on YouTube now, you probably can see it. And without going into too much granular detail, maybe, David, you can explain the rules at the bottom of the page and how things go. Sure. So at the bottom, we have our agreed-upon rules. So the first way you can get points is your placement.

So the person who comes in 18th place or is voted out first gets one point. The person who comes in 17th place or is voted out second gets two points. And then it goes on so forth. The longer one of your players survives, the more points you accrue. Correct. So the person who wins it gets 18 points. The person who comes in second gets 17, et cetera. Okay. I think I understand. I mean, I'm going to be honest with you. I understand about 65%, but I think it's enough for a podcast.

Yeah. I just got distracted that one of the competitors is named MC, and I imagine that it was MC Scat-Cat. It could have been, yeah. From the Paula Abdul opposite attract video. Yeah, Jesse Thorne, if we're going to do an opposites attract Fantasy League, do you draft MC Scatcat or would you draft Paula Abdul? So you get two points for steps forward, one for steps forward. Okay, well, this all seems like a lot of fun. And at the end of a season, there is one survivor on the island and in your friendship.

Annie, what does the winner get at the end of the season? So historically, the winner gets a meal bought for them. So either a meal we've had in the past like a fancy dinner, Or a, there's also a dessert-only restaurant here in Portland. So we've had a, you know, like a smorg. I think it's a smorgasbord. Sure. Just a platform of desserts instead of a savory meal.

So, yeah. You got one of those dessert towers? Yes. Yeah, five platters of desserts. We finished it and the owner of the restaurant came out and congratulated us. Yeah, that was nice. It was very exciting. There's a lot.

You know, Jesse Thorne, we haven't been to Portland, Maine in a while. There's a lot of good food in Portland, Maine. There is. We've got to go to this dessert restaurant, the minor league hockey game. Oh, that's not we haven't done in Portland, Maine yet. All right. So you get a fantastic meal at the end of the season if you win. But Annie, there's a dispute here, not just who's going to win or lose, but over specifically,

I'm looking up here, your number one pick, or at least the top one on your right hand. column, Savannah. This is a point semi-literally of contention, right? Correct. That's why we're here. What's going on with Savannah? And why are you two fighting over this? All right.

So this season, there was an episode in which Savannah, they all participated in a challenge. So there's two different types of challenges. There's immunity challenges and there's reward challenges. It was a combination challenge where she won two things. Number one, she won individual immunity, which according to our score sheet, she earns one point for that. She also won an advantage, which according to our score sheet, you get a point for that. So because she won two points for doing one action, David believes that she should only get one of those points. They should merge into one point.

And I'm saying she did, she received two benefits from that one action. And so I should be entitled to both points. What was the action that she did to earn the immunity point? and then the advantage point as well. So there was a challenge. They were standing in between. There's boards. They had to stand like this.

And then there were these little platforms and they had to stand there on increasingly smaller footholds. And whoever lasted the longest won the challenge. John, it was a challenge. They were in a shopping mall. And someone came up to them with some small cups of cola.

Okay. They had to identify which one they preferred, which one was Coke, and which one was Pepsi. Oh, I say, while standing on a board on a deserted island in the shopping mall? And then they had to eat some bugs or something. Yeah. Yeah, did she eat some bugs or what?

Savannah. Did she eat some bugs? Not at this time, no. This was just standing on an increasingly smaller platforms. This is a little bit hard to say. Decreasingly large platforms would also be the same. Anyway, oxymorons. They're fun.

The point is it's hard to stand on the platform. She did it. Savannah did it, got an immunity point and an advantage point. So why didn't you get two points? David, how can you explain this? Why did you only award any two points? So if I can refer you to Exhibit A towards the bottom there. All right.

I was hoping I would never have to look at this spreadsheet again. I'm so sorry. No, no, no. It's usually the person who submits a spreadsheet always wins. David, you created this. sheet, right? That's correct. Yeah, I presumed as much when you pulled it out of what appears to be a file of facts with color-coded sticky labels in it. Yeah, exactly. So at the bottom, our agreed upon way you get points. So I explained the placement points, but in the middle line there,

you get a point for obtaining an advantage, and you get a point for winning an individual Immunity Challenge. All right. You're interpreting this, but I'm going to tell you what I'm reading. Okay. Advantage equals one point. Individual immunity equals one point. Savannah got the advantage.

Yep. So one point goes to Annie. You're not disputing that. Correct. So tell me what the problem is here with individual immunity. The challenge you won was not for individual immunity. It was for group immunity. What they did, there was 10 people left in the game at this point.

they split them up into two groups of five. Yeah. And whoever won, won immunity for their entire group. So she won group immunity, not individual immunity. Let me ask you this, David, on Survivor Island, they ever have a challenge for splitting hairs? No. Because I think you might want to make an audition tape.

No, I mean, I don't know. I'm giving David the guff there, Annie, but it says individual immunity on the sheet, and it doesn't sound like Savannah got individual immunity. She won immunity for her whole. So she did win immunity for her whole cohort. I will say this is an unprecedented challenge where this, the way it was awarded, it's never happened before. So I think there's a gray area in the rules. Would you say that it might have been the most dramatic standing on platform ceremony ever?

I mean, it was riveting television. Yeah. As always. But it was riveting. This has never happened before. Listen, sheer force of will. Is that the sort of thing that someone would say about this moment on reality television? So your argument is something happened that was unprecedented, that David's beautiful

spreadsheet didn't anticipate. Exactly. And that is what exactly? So what happened was, although this was a group challenge, we've already moved past the tribe. When they're in tribes, they win tribe immunity, which is. one figurine. It's big. It's carved. No, I'm somewhat familiar with the figurine-based economy. Then they merge into individual immunity, which is represented by a necklace with like shark teeth on it. So we've moved into the individual immunity portion of the season. Okay. And she did win for her whole group. So if anything, she won more than regular immunity.

Wait a minute. If she, if if you had moved into individual shark tooth necklace, immunity phase. Yes. In the past, this is what I'm trying to understand. In the past, once you move into shark tooth necklace phase, little figurine tribe immunity is out the window. No more. Jeff, take the back.

Correct. Right. But now, now, in a dramatic turn of events that has never been seen before, Savannah got a tribal immunity figurine during shark tooth necklace phase, correct? No, she did not. It was an oral. It was an oral figurine. She won the shark tooth necklace in this challenge.

An oral figurine? Like a spoken figurine? She did not win the tribe immunity. She won an individual necklace. They just, she won it and also the other people on her tribe also won immunity and did not receive a necklace. David, did you get a shark tooth necklace? Yes or no.

Yes or no, David. She did not earn the shark tooth necklace. Was she wearing it at tribal council? I wasn't asking your opinion on whether she earned it. Did she get it? She got it, yes. I don't want to look for a value judgment. Yes, she did.

She got the necklace, right? How does she not earn it? She didn't perform up to your standards. She earned it, but her advantage was that she got to go to the losing tribes, tribal council. Okay. With the necklace. Sounds so ridiculous. And because it is, her group had in,

had immunity, had group immunity, but to symbolize her immunity at the losing tribes tribal council, they gave her the necklace. This, John, do you remember when we discussed the game, Taguar on this program? This is starting to sound really taguari. I honestly am lost. I think it's really a good time to bring in an expert witness who might be able to explain this somewhat and unravel these intricacies. We've teased this person.

Let's tease no more. Bailiff, Jesse. Will you bring in our expert witness, please? She is a former attorney who knows her way around complicated rules. She's also an author, a matchmaker, and a two-time past survivor contestant. Let's welcome to the court, Francesca Hogue. Francesca Hogi, hello. Hi.

Oh, wait a minute. You put on those who are watching on the YouTube channel, and if you are, you're doing the right thing, you just put on a head covering of somebody. I just put on a survivor buff so maybe David would recognize me. Sure do now. Yeah. David just got shamed by the buff. And rightly so. No points for you.

You are voted almost off the island of Judge John Hodgman. You know what? I'll decide. So look, first of all, Francesca, it's so nice to see you. Let me explain a little context here. I was flying across the country for a wedding. And I was seated next to a wonderful person whom I did not know at all. And it was you.

And we got to talking about one thing or the other. And I was explaining that I host a podcast called Judge John Hodgman. And you were very politely paying attention. And over time, I began to sense that you realized I had never seen survivor in my life. Because if I had, I would be like, oh my gosh, I'm sitting next to Francesca Hogi, a two-time survivor contestant. And you explained it to me, and I hope you won't mind if I bring it up. But part of your reputation on survivor is tragic in the sense that you were the, well, you explain it because I don't, I don't know. Well, I am, I hold a record. I am the biggest

loser and survivor history. So maybe a dubious choice to be an expert with this here. You're the best survivor in biggest loser history. Yes, yes, we'll go with that. But no, I was, I was voted off first on two different seasons. So that has never happened to anyone else before. But in my defense, I am the only person who is eligible for this particular honor. However, I have very strong opinions about what's going on here with Annie and David. I can't wait to get into it, but I just need to say a couple of things more. First of all, when I went to that wedding at the after, at the reception, I spoke to a number of Survivor fans and they were so thrilled that I got to meet you.

I was like, not only that, but Frannie explained Survivor to me, all of the most famous players, all of the details. And this, I've been meaning to reach out to you and thank you because I am a traitors guy, and when our friends, Paul and Janie were watching Traders' most recent U.S. season, they're like, and then they revealed this dude. And everyone acted as though he was famous, but I had never heard of him. I was like, I know who that is. That's Boston Rob. I know because my friend Franny told me all about Boston Rob. I looked so smart. I love it. I love it. And also, your book just came out a few months ago, How to Find True Love, Unlock Your Romantic Flow, and Create Last relationships because besides being a two-time Survivor contestant, you are also a relationship coach and matchmaker, right? Yeah, which is pretty crazy if you consider how badly I did with my relationships on Survivor, but...

I think that this is a somewhat unique circumstance. It was a unique circumstance, and it was a long time ago. So also, David, you are forgiven for not remembering me. I was on a very long time ago and briefly. But I do have to just tell everybody one thing. The reason that John and I really, well, I started talking to you on the plane because the flight attendant delivered John a handwritten note from another passenger. And I was like, oh, I forgot about that. And I was like, I have to say something.

I have, I've never seen this happen before. I was like, I'm sorry. What just happened here? that's how we start. That's how we became friends. I explained to you that it was a note from a Judge John Hodgman fan who was seated elsewhere on the plane and saw me, saw me on board, but I now must confess to you, since I am under fake oath.

I do that on every flight. I hand the flight attendant a fake note to hand to me during the flight at some point just to make me look and, well, not even look good, feel good, honestly. I'm just imagining you opening. this note that another passenger sent to you. And it's just a long list of why you were wrong about one of the decisions. No, they usually save those for the many emails that I get every Thursday after the episode posts on Wednesday on Maximumfund.org. But in the meantime, all right. So, Frannie, it's so great to spend time with you again. That was such a great conversation that we had.

And I knew when I heard about this case between Annie and David that we would have to get you on board because you're very wise and I know nothing. So what are your impressions so far about what you've heard? Well, first of all, I want to say that I actually watched the episode. I watched the challenge and I don't normally watch Survivor. I haven't watched it in years, but I watch. Is it hard to watch it for you? Yes, but also I just, you know, I've been there, I've done that, I've seen it.

You've moved on. I've moved on. The game is different than it used to be. It's a lot shorter. I think it's a lot easier. So I just don't find it as interesting as it used to be. That's why I don't watch the Olympics anymore. But I was like, okay, I have to watch because I have to know the context of what's going on here.

Oh, you did it for the court. I did it for court. Thank you very much. Yes. So I literally woke up today and I subscribed to Paramount Plus just so I could watch this challenge. Oh, no. I didn't know. Now you can watch that Sylvester Stallone show.

I didn't know. I didn't know that we forced you to subscribe to Paramount Plus. We've got to recompense you in damages. Free trial. And it's getting canceled. I literally, I just, I had to watch this challenge. You got to make sure you cancel that before David Ellison comes over and. I already canceled it.

I already canceled it. Watch all the episodes of John. Jackass first. I have a week. If there's anything I must watch, let me know. Okay, so I, so as Annie and David have explained, this is an unprecedented situation because this, the game of Survivor by this episode had moved to the point where it wasn't about tribe versus tribe.

It's about individual versus individual. So it was an unusual set of circumstances. However, watching the episode, and even the episode, and even the... the way that Jeff Probst is talking about it because it's kind of like you could tell, you know, he's not used to an individual immunity having repercussions for a large group of people either. So even the way he talked about it, he was like, he was referring to it as an individual immunity for Savannah. So, and it was. I mean, she was the one who won the challenge. She was the last person standing. This is a, this, by the way, is a classic survivor challenge that's been

on many seasons before. And the standing on small platforms. Yes, yes. And she won it, fair and square. She was the clear winner. There was no ambiguity there. And it was just a twist of the show. And this is the thing about survivors,

that they like to throw in these twists. So it was just a twist of the show that this particular challenge had this, had this, you know, added twist of all the whole group got immunity. But it really was Savannah's immunity. So I personally think that it's clear cut that she wants. individual immunity, and I think that she should get two points. That's my opinion. And I...

At first, when you were saying that, you know, you also want punitive damages, I was like, okay, let's not get carried away. But now, I don't know, because David... He's beating me by so many points. This one point would mean nothing. And yet he's doubling down, tripling down. I mean, you took it to court. I mean, like, this is a serious thing at this point.

She took it to court. I didn't take it to court. I mean, Frannie, you help people find love matches and discover in themselves first what is important to them romantically before they even go out and find a romantic partner. Yes. Are you board certified to help a friendship in crisis? I am board certified for friendship just as you are an actual judge. Yes. So not at all, then.

Got it. But you're a smart and thoughtful person. Thank you. Thank you. No, listen, I think that, you know, first of all, I love that the two of you do this together and the fact that, you know, you clearly are very good friends. And even if you, even if you lose, you win because you still get to go have the dinner. You still get to go have the dessert smurgis for it. You still get to do this for the next 50 seasons of Survivor because apparently it's never ending. So, I mean, you both really won here because you have a friend, you have a friendship, and that's something that, This is something that you share together. So you've already won. Should I get four more points because she won immunity for those other four people as well? It didn't have an interesting question. What do you think, Frannie, should Annie get four points, extra points?

I don't think that Annie should get four extra points. However, I do think that in your discretion as judge, you do have the right to, you know, if you want to award her some punitive points, you could. Why does David deserve punishment rather than simply correcting the record if I were to find in your favor? Well, I would say, so last season I beat David by close to 60 points. Never once did I rub it in his face. I didn't say anything. I think the final score was 160 to 108.

That was one of the most dramatic seasons of your friendship ever. Yes. I think it was statistically impossible for him to win going into the season finale. It was already clear. Did I say one thing to make him feel bad? No. And here we are. Now he's beating me by a lot.

And his attitude just in general about it is not my favorite. He's been. Are you saying, would you say that, I mean, you're friends, but he didn't come here to make friends? He's back with an eye towards vengeance? Yes. And I will use the one survivor. Is he being a real Jeff Kent? Hall of Fame baseball player and survivor contestant, Jeff Kent, who I'm pretty sure was a heel on the show?

Yes. I don't remember him. He was mad when he got kicked off the show. He said that if he had won the million dollars, even though he had earned tens of millions of dollars as a baseball player, Obama would probably just take away half of it. It's just not a chill dude. No. What fun. What fun.

David, are you just? Jeff Kenting it? Are you being a heel? Are you back for vengeance? What's going on? I think I've been very pleasant this whole season. I didn't see any evidence submitted showing that I was a quote-unquote weenie about it. Annie, did you make, did you make a weenie spreadsheet for us? I have not yet. No, I apologize. I could brief it later. Annie, I feel like you didn't bring any filo facts at all. I didn't. Well, actually, that raises a good point, David. You're there with your with your leather binder with the cross tabs and everything else. You seem very official.

I understand that when you were talking to our wonderful producer, Jennifer Marmer, the two of you, that you would often refer to yourself as the commissioner of this league. Well, that's just because I made the spreadsheet and I keep score. And about halfway through every season, Annie asks me for a score update because I guess she doesn't keep score during the season. And so I feel like I'm the de facto commissioner of our head-to-head league. I feel like, how do you? Commissioner is an extraordinary title to grant oneself in what even the word

Fair enough barely describes this. So league is a real stretch. Jesse, this brings up a point. You probably know this better than I do. What is the difference? I mean, between a scorekeeper, for example, and a commissioner. I don't know what a commissioner does. A scorekeeper, at least in the sport of baseball, which is the one that I follow the most closely, is essentially a functionary. A scorekeeper's interpretive responsibilities don't affect the outcome of the game, right? A scorekeeper is essentially checking boxes. And to the extent that they are making any interpretive decisions, it's only about the way the game is recorded, not the outcome. Like in baseball, a, uh,

a scorekeeper decides whether a given play is a hit or an error. But that doesn't affect the outcome of the game. Whereas the commissioner is someone who, in professional sports, their primary responsibility is representing the business interests of the oligarchs who control the semi-monoplies that are professional sports leagues, obviously. But like the first baseball commissioner, Kennesaw Mountain Landis, was famously in charge of representing the interests of the game. Right. What that means is interpreting, interpreting the gray areas for the benefit of the, you know, the full politic, the full body politic of the sport, the fans, the owners, the players, everyone. Right. And so it is a very significant distinction that the commissioner is the person who is the ultimate decider of disputes, whereas that's, that's, you know, that's a very significant distinction. And so, that's a very significant distinction that the commissioner is the person who is the person who is the ultimate decider of disputes.

whereas that scorekeeper, the only deciding that they do is for the sake of deciding whether, you know, something should count against a pitcher's earned run average. Actually, I think scorekeeper would probably be a more correct title. I agree. Commissioner. So as we record this, the Survivor season finale is about to air in a couple of days after this recording. And to Frannie, I'm sure you noted that the current final player,

is our, is it Rizzo or Rizzo, Annie or David? Rizzo. Rizzo. Rizzo, Sage, and Sophie are on your team, David. Yes. And Savannah and Christina remain on Annie's team, and that's it. Correct, yes. Is that right, Annie?

Yes. So David has a bit of an advantage going into the finale, because it seems like he has three chances to win and you have two. Yes. And also the big prize. The score is, the score, I don't know what the score is because I haven't haven't been able to ask for you. Oh, I wonder if there were a scorekeeper we could ask.

I don't know if it's going to hurt or help my case. Let's hear it. Well, you know what? That's not what the scorekeeper's obligation is. That's fair. They're there to keep the score and report the score. Currently, I have 66 points. Annie has 37 points.

Annie has the potential to, if both of her players come in first and second, she can get an additional 35 points. If her players come in first and second, she can get a total of 45 points. And so Annie can get a maximum score of 126. I can get a minimum score of 135. I don't understand sports. We just cancel Survivor? Is that there?

Maybe. Frannie, did you, did you, did you, did you, can you make sense of that? It seems like there's no way Annie can win. There's no way Annie can win unless you decide to award her some extra. points in your discretion, your honor. Oh, right. Punitive points. Yes.

Damages. Okay. But without my intervention, David, even if I were to rule in Annie's favor and solely say that she did earn an extra point for this immunity kerfuffle, still there's no way she could win. There's no outcome in which she could win. Unless there's some very wild things that happen during the survivor finesse, the survivor finale that we can't predict in terms of points, then no. Where, how many bugs are they going to eat this time?

That's exactly right. What are you talking about? Yeah. You said that she could get a maximum of 120-something. Yeah. You're going to walk away with a minimum. How did, how, what could possibly turn the tide other than the most dramatic? If Jeff brings players back or some weird thing like that, which I highly doubt he will.

So pretty much, Annie, unless you award punitive damages, then. And he probably can't win. But this is for setting precedent. That's part of the reason I'm a stickler about this point is that I don't think we should be changing rules midseason. But David, you may be being a little bit short-sighted here because you could not have anticipated that this particular immunity challenge set up would have occurred. And there are other things that could happen in this season and future seasons that you also can't anticipate. So you really have to decide, are you, are you really going to try to really stick to the letter of the law here when that could come back to bite you? Or more the spirit of what you intended here, which is that Savannah would be the person who would win individual immunity, which she did.

Right. So like, what's the, I think you just have to decide, you know, not just, not just about this season. Because presumably, unless this episode and ruling destroys your friendship. presumably you're going to continue to do this together, right, in your league of two. So I would just encourage you to think about that. Although I could say, Frannie, that I might rule that they never speak to each other again and their friendship is over. That's true. You do have that power. I do.

Yes. But, David, what is your response to the punitive damages that Annie is seeking? Do you see any merit in that claim? Not in the punitive damages. No, not in the punitive damages. Not even the punishment of printing something in yellow with a black outline that's impossible to read. Ten points minimum. I don't think I should be penalized for creating and creating a document and keeping score.

Yeah, Annie, how easy is it to read your score sheet that you keep for the league? David, if the situation were reversed, do you think you would be less of a stickler? You would demand that the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law apply for you? No, I think the letter of the law. I think, in my opinion, it does say the rules do say individual immunity. You got an individual immunity, David. I understand Francesca has actually been very convincing. Right.

In lieu of dropping, I would actually, I would offer up a settlement. What's the settlement? You have to drop the punitive damages, and I'll give you the point. There's no settlements in this court. Well, there never have been before, but guess what? There could be a surprise rule change in the most unprecedented and dramatic episode ever of Judge John Hodgman. I just found out that on Survivor, Jeff Proops, can just do whatever he wants. He can bring people back from the dead and stuff. I had no idea.

Frannie has said that David is the scorekeeper, not the commissioner. Annie, if there were a commissioner to whom you could petition an appeal, aside from the court of Judge John Hodgman, if your league had a commissioner, are there any other things that David does in the court, in the course of league play that you think deserve appropriate, appropriate, condemnation that you're mad about? Yes. I would say. I do think, you know what? I think we need. I think we need a full re-evaluation of all of the rules. As time has gone on, the seasons have gone on. We're tweaking the rules and making it more and more complicated. And I think at this point, we've maybe gone a little bit too far. I'd like to re, you know, make sure we're on the same page.

All right. Well, I guess maybe it's time for me to go into my guest chambers here. Those of you who are watching the podcast on YouTube at Judge John Hodgeman Pod can see I'm not in my normal chambers. I am in the home studio of our good friend Chuck Bryant from the Stuff You Should Know podcast. I've been as houseguests for the past couple of days while visiting our son, who's a home being in his own right, here in Atlanta. In any case, I am going to disappear into my, well, I'm just going to sit here with my eyes closed and think it over, I suppose, because I don't have my regular chambers. And I'll be back in my own with my verdict. Here we go. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Annie, how do you feel about your chances right now? I feel pretty strong about my chances.

I think I locked in that extra point for sure, which I obviously was entitled to. And I think he might be leaning towards the punitive damages as well, if for nothing else, then to keep it interesting, but also because I deserve them. David, how do you feel? I think Francesco was very convincing. I think Judge Hodgman's going to award the extra part. I would be very, very disappointed if he awarded any sort of punitive damages. I think they're unwarranted and undeserved.

Annie, David, how is two people a league? It's a head-to-head league. We could, we should maybe think about getting more people in for starting on season 50. What would you call it, Bayliff Thorne? It's starting to sound like a, the more I hear about it, the more I feel like, at some sort of over complicated kink game. Bring in, don't you know anyone else that watches Survivor? Well, okay.

Honestly, we do have another subpool, which includes my, I have a 10-year-old son, which includes him, which has way less rules and is much less complicated, and it's probably more fun for other people to be involved in. Yeah. Our operations manager here at Maximum Fund, Stacey Moleski, she's going to, she'll join your league. Right. Great. Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment. Judge Hodgman, we have a very special announcement. We are returning to Brooklyn, New York City, and the Bell House. That's absolutely right, Jesse. We're returning home

to the Bell House, my favorite place to perform in all of New York City, and it's always better when you are there. We have two big shows coming up on March the 6th and March the 7th. That's a Friday and a Saturday two, two big weekend shows. Each one is going to be different. So you might want to get tickets to both and join us for a wonderful weekend of homecoming with Judge John Hodgman and bail of Jesse Thorne. And we're doing an all new format. We're calling it night court. It's going to be cool and intimate and two completely different shows. We're going to be doing a lot of experimental stuff. It is going to be a great time. It's going to be a special experience for those of you in Brooklyn.

Maximumfund.org slash events is where you get your tickets. I hope you'll go there right now. I'll wait. Are you there? Terrific. Click by and we'll see you there at the Bell House, March 6th and 7th, Friday and Saturday night, for Judge John Hodgman and bailiff Jesse Thorn night court. And we'll also see you in San Francisco this weekend at Sketchfest.

We love you. Maximumfund.org slash events. Let's get back to the case. Please rise as Judge John Hodgeman reenters the courtroom. and presents his verdict. Oh, I had my eyes closed that whole time. I actually got a little rest in. Because, look, I would love to draw out the suspense of this tribal council

to get the highest ratings of all time. But this is a pretty clear-cut case. First and foremost, I'm going to say, and I already ruled this before I went into my chambers, David, you are not the commissioner. And you cannot be the commissioner. You are a player. You are the scorekeeper. There is a commissioner to your league, and it is not me, because I don't know anything about anything.

Obviously, the de facto and now in facto commissioner is Francesca Hogi. She will be the commissioner of your league forever on. With your permission, Francesca, I will forward petitions to your wisdom from the two litigants in the future should a dispute come up. Is that all right with you? You know what? Sign me up. Sign me up. This is an unpaid position.

Will they pay for my Paramount Plus subscription? I'll offer you this settlement. We'll pay for your free trial. Oh, this, okay, great. Sign me up. Now, in terms of the case at hand, I am going to follow the wisdom of our league commissioner and agree.

Obviously, Savannah got the shark necklace. So Savannah got the individual immunity and by the rules or the chicken scratchings at the bottom of this rule sheet or the score sheet. And he deserves that point. I have no qualms awarding her that point, especially since it's not going to change the outcome in any way. I appreciate, David, that the stakes are high. You want vengeance. You don't want to merely win this season, which you are. probably going to do, barring some strange, probstian interference.

But you want to destroy your friend with the greatest possible margin because you're still stinging from that 60-point defeat from last season. I get it. But no, the rules are the rules such as they are. You've kept the score faithfully so far, and you get the extra point. Now, in terms Annie of getting punitive damages, additional points, it's clear that David is a mastermind and it is also clear that he is attempted to engineer a power grab

by naming himself not only player but scorekeeper and commissioner. That title has now been officially stripped away. David, you will have to surrender your commissioner figurine to Francesca later. Is it a figurine, Fannie, do you think? Or is it a shark necklace or something else? What do you want? Or is it a buff?

You know, I'll take a buff. I'll take a buff. Ceremonial buff? Yeah, yeah, yes. I'll offer you this damages, Annie. David has to pay out of his own pocket for a ceremonial commissioner's buff or other sort of token of office to send to Francesca Hogi. Thank you. For when she needs to adjudicate disputes.

But in terms of other points, here's what I've noticed. David, I mean, and this is not unused. for a guy to do. We wanted to make a spreadsheet. He appointed himself scorekeeper. He's asking you every season, do you want to change the rules? And you're just sort of like, you know, you're going along to get along. It's a strategy in the game.

You're not keeping score. You're letting him run this thing. And unfortunately, I think, you know, maybe your strategy is backfiring because you're paying the price because he can award those points or not award those points. That's not entirely fair. I think that you should be more active and take a more active role. And indeed, I think you are doing so today by demanding a constitutional convention with regard to clarifying the rules. And I order a constitutional convention to occur.

But at the same time, you're kind of just, you know, you're letting him take the heat and sneaking by and hoping that old Judge John Hodgman is going to throw 30 points your way just to show this so unsuburn. so that he's that he's trying being too controlling and he's a and he's a weird dude with too many schemes. You know me very well. You're playing me like a file in or in my case a viola. That's what I played when I was in high school. Point is you're not going to get away with it this time, Annie. No punitive damages for you other than a constitutional convention and money out of David's pocket for a ceremonial buff. And I hope that going forward, not only do you have a clearer out, clear outline of the rules that will avoid needless confrontation. And when there is confrontation, you will be able to take it to Francesco Hoki.

And I also hope that you will have more people in your league as soon as possible. I can't do it because I'm all in on the traders. I apologize. That's my thing. I rule minimally in Annie's favor, one extra point awarded for Savannah's individual accomplishment of getting that shark necklace. when no one was supposed to get one. No punitive damages.

And David, you may now leave the island. I mean it, leave. Get out of here, David. This is the only punishment that you're going to get for David, Annie. I hope you enjoy watching your friend walk out of the studio. He's so confused. It is pretty great. Yeah, David.

Do I really leave? Your time has come. Thank you for playing Judge John Hodgman. Okay, bye. We now must ask you. to leave the courtroom. David, don't make me come over there. You actually have to tell me my, my, uh, torches snuffed.

Oh, I think we all know your torches. All right. Get out of here. All right. So that is my ruling. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Well, we have one surviving litigant, Jesse Thorne.

I wonder, I wonder how she feels about this accomplishment. Annie, how are you feeling about the judge's decision? I feel pretty good, okay? I was a hard-fought one point to win, but I'll accept that I didn't win the punitive damages because we get the Constitutional Convention, which I think is going to be helpful for seasons going forward. And I'm going to stop swallowing my bad feelings, and I'm just going to get at them right in the beginning. Now, normally, Frannie, we ask both litigants how they feel after the case has been settled. But in this case, I ordered David to leave.

So Jennifer Marmer, will you reach out to David and have him record himself on his phone in a sort of direct-to-camera confessional style telling us how he feels about it? Ideally, when he's being driven away in the back of a limousine bachelor style, that would be great. The way I feel about losing the case, it wasn't really a blind side. I think once Francesca kind of chimed in. and it was clear she was on Annie's side. I knew I would have to at least give up the one point. So no surprises there.

Happy Annie got her point. I was glad to see my friend win. I am glad that Judge Hodgman saw the logic in not awarding any punitive damages. I think he was justified in doing that. So overall, you know, I feel okay about the outcome. Happy thing, how things went. It would have been nice to beat Annie by one more point, but, you know, I'm going to win this season anyway. So I think things will be okay.

Thanks. Francesca Hogi, your book is called How to Find True Love. People can watch your TED Talk, how to unlock your flirting superpowers. This is your second TED talk, I believe, right? Yes, yes. Over there at ted.com, and you can find Francesca at Francescahoggi.com. Thank you so much for being. here. Thank you so much for having me and thank you for giving me a title. I've never been a

commissioner of anything before. So this is pretty exciting. Again, one month of free trial, Paramount Plus. And you know what? Get a free trial to Peacock too while you're at it. On us. Another Judge John Hodgman cases in the books. We'll have swift justice in just a moment. First, our thanks to Redator Wortless G.B. Racker for naming this week's episode, Probstbate Court. Join the conversation at the Maximum Fund subreddit. That's R-slash Maximum Fun. We will be asking for title suggestions there as well. Keep an eye out for those.

Evidence and photos from the show are on our Instagram account at Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman. We're also on TikTok and YouTube at Judge John Hodgman Pod. Follow and subscribe there to see our episodes and our video-only content. Speaking of video, I am on video right now, and if you're looking at you. at me, you'll see that I am very slowly regrowing the beard that I had to shave a few weeks ago for a secret job. Maybe you know about it by now, I don't know. But in any case, the world got to revisit a big old baby-faced John Hodgman instead of the John Hodgman, perhaps you're used to

human resources accountant for the Church of Satan. In any case, I'm regrowing this beard, and progress continues on day four of my beard regrowth, which you saw on our recent episode, what is it, exposition is nine-tenths of gaffa at Ghost Mop on YouTube commented, I'm just here for the freshly shorn judge. And then I think that's a gavel emoji. Thanks so much for that comment at Ghostmop. That's the YouTube comment of the week.

If you want to be considered for YouTube comment of the week, what do you can do? Go over to YouTube, Judge John Hodgman Pod, watch the show and leave a comment. We really enjoy reading your feedback, and we also really appreciate your liking and subscribing and sharing because it really does help people discover the show.

And by the way, Jesse, the more comments we get, the faster my beard grows back. So I would really love it if you would comment. It's like a Pinocchio nose kind of thing. It's a special arrangement I have with the YouTube Corporation. Judge John Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman, this episode engineered by Sam McArthur at the Studio Portland in Portland, Maine. Megan Rosati runs our social media.

The podcast is edited by A.J. McKin, our video editor, Daniel Spear. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Okay, you ready for you? swift justice, key expert says on the Maximum Fund subreddit, that's our slash maximum fun. There's a room in our basement that my wife calls the garage. I call it the workshop. It's not large enough to hold a vehicle. It's only accessible through standard people-sized doors. Her defense is, you know what I mean. Jesse, maybe you're younger than I am, so maybe the Amityville horror never meant anything to you.

But there was a small part of the Amnibald horror was a supposedly true story about a haunted house in Amityville, New York. And one of the elements of the haunting was that the family found a secret room that had been bricked up under the stairs in the basement that was supposedly a portal to hell. That really scared me. And you know what?

That's what this room is in the garage. It's a portal to hell. Call it that because it's certainly not a garage. If you can't drive a vehicle into it, It's not a garage. It's a portal to hell. It's scary, isn't it? John, one time Jordan and I, when we were doing sketch comedy, we were in Seattle, I think, at the Seattle

Sketch Comedy Festival. Sure you were. And the festival offered to put us up, but they put us up in some supporters, like three-car modular garage that they had converted into a theater that they would bring with them to Burning Man. I don't understand how it all was. worked exactly. But if it's a modular three-car garage, but it's full of whimsical theater seating and a stage where people do

productions of episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer episodes. Uh-huh. Is that a garage? No, that's, that's a portal to the deepest level of hell. Sorry. Uh, Jesse, I do, I do want to be. on the traders. I don't want to be on Survivor. I would love to be on below deck. I'm not averse

to talking about these things. John, I want to be on Antiques Road Trip. I realized I watch a reality competition show. It's Antiques Road Trip. The British sort of commercial semi-spin-off of Antiques Road Show where... Oh, I thought you were just misspeaking. There's a different show. No, no. This is a different show where two antiques experts get in a vintage car and drive through the British countryside, going to antique stores and buying things. And then at the end of each episode, they bring them to a like a provincial auction house in England. Yeah.

And they compete to see whose items sell for the greatest profit with all of the profit. Of course, John, going to charity. That sounds like a wonderful show. Indeed, it sort of sounds like a tolerable version of American pickers. But I don't mind American pickers either. If you've got a dispute surrounding a reality show, like we do. just heard today on the show, I want to hear about it. Are you hosting a weekly traders party and you're the only one dressing like Alan coming for the occasion? What is the best cooking competition show?

Master Chef or Top Chef or Chopped? Any reality show of dispute that you've got, I want to hear it and I want it to be dramatic. Send it to me at maximumfund.org slash jj.O or email me at Hodgman at maximumfund.org. And of course, no matter what your disputes are, please send them to us at maximum fun.org slash jj-j-ho. Big or small, we judges them all. We're particularly interested right now in disputes from the San Francisco Bay Area. So let us know if you're from the Bay when you submit your case at maximum fund.org slash J-J-HO. We will talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximum Fun.

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