Judge John Hodgman - Rashomom

Episode Date: May 2, 2012

Rebekah, her mother Denise and grandmother Gloria have a case regarding memory -- specifically, is the memory of a child or an adult more reliable?  Denise insists that a grey house stood next door to her childhood home; Gloria says that's simply not true, and that the house must be a figment of Denise's imagination. Rebekah's been dragged in to adjudicate their dispute before, but she's got issues of her own with her mom's recollections of past events.  Who is right, who is wrong, who can even remember? We turn to the man who never forgets, Judge John Hodgman, to decide.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, Rasha Mom. Rebecca, her mother Denise, and grandmother Gloria have a case regarding memory. Specifically, is the memory of a child or an adult more reliable? Denise insists that a gray house stood next door to her childhood home. Gloria says that's simply not true and that the house must be a figment of Denise's imagination. Rebecca's been dragged in to adjudicate their dispute before, but she's got issues of her own with her mom's recollections of past events. Who's right? Who's wrong? Who can even remember? Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. To a dispute, then, I owe my first gleam of consciousness since the first creatures on Earth to become aware of time were also the first creatures to judge. Bailiff Jesse, please swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth of the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do.

I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he has no need for a memory since he purchased a 64 kilobit sharp personal organizer. I do. I do. Very well.

Judge Hodgman? Sharp. Very sharp. This is actually a dispute between a mother and a grandmother with a daughter sort of falling in the middle. Is that correct? It is. All right. Now, who speaks right then? I'm Rebecca of falling in the middle. Is that correct? It is. All right. Now, who speaks right then?

I'm Rebecca. I'm the granddaughter. And you are the granddaughter. Judge Hodgman, may we be seated? For your impudence, no. And now you may be seated. Thank you. Only because you are hardworking women who deserve a seat.

Thank you. Now, Rebecca, you are the granddaughter. I am. Your mother is Denise. May I hear your voice, please? Yes, I'm Denise. Denise. And then, Gloria, you are the grandmother in this situation.

Yes, I am. Very well. First of all, let me just point out that Gloria, the grandmother, has the best Skype connection of all. So, shame on both you, Denise and Rebecca. God, thank you. Now, for an immediate summary judgment in your favor, Rebecca, can you name the piece of culture that I paraphrased when I entered the courtroom? I'm afraid I cannot, and I expected that question. No, I can't.

Denise or Gloria, can either of you for an immediate summary judgment in your favor? No, and I knew you'd do this. When I heard the Princess Bride one, I said, oh, I know that one. But no, I'm not familiar with this one. It was a paraphrase of Vladimir Nabokov's Speak Memory. Really? Okay, it's been a long time since I've read it. Well, I don't know. I looked it up on the internet earlier. I may have forgotten. Rebecca, you are the mediating factor here. This fight is actually between your mom and your grandmom, Denise, the mother. what is it that you and your mother, Gloria, disagree over?

Oh, let's see. Eight, nine, ten years old, thereabouts for me. We lived in a house on what was at that time a little two-lane road. And east of us, probably less than a quarter of a mile, was a little creek where we used to play all the time. My brother, who was four or five at the time, my sister, who was about a year behind me, and then me, the oldest. And so we were running up and down that street to the creek all the time. And so please tell me, what state was this in? Oregon. Where in Oregon? Not too far from Portland, a very rural area at the time. It's very developed now, but it was farming country then. I see.

And you were sustainably raising organic chickens and giving each other tattoos? Absolutely. No tattoos, but there were chickens and a big garden, yes. All right. And without getting too deeply into personal matters, may I inquire as to the year, more or less, of this happening? Yes, it would have been 61, 62, early, into 63, because we lived in that house at the Kennedy assassination, so that was 63. All right. And so, some simple math tells me that that was about 100 years ago, is that

correct? Roughly. It certainly feels like it, yes. All right. And you were the oldest of the three siblings. Mm-hmm. And you were the youngest, excuse me? I'm the oldest. You're the oldest.

Okay. And so, what is it that you remember that your mother, Gloria, does not remember? Between our house and the creek, there was another house. It was a little gray house. Mm-hmm. We did not know the creek, there was another house. It was a little gray house. We did not know the people who lived in the house. Our folks had a lot of respect for private property. If you run to the creek, you stay on the road. You don't go in the neighbor's property. So we always circled around. Mom does not remember the existence of that house. So my sister and I, who do, have referred to it in conversation, and she says

there was no gray house, and we said, yes, there was. So, our family has evolved the device of the gray house universe, which is in the universe that I live in, which had a gray house in it, this is the way the world was. But mom says in the universe that I live in, there is no gray house, and this is the way the universe works. So, you were describing the theory the the physics theory of many worlds yeah something along those lines you and you and your your mother are now living in parallel dimensions yes precisely at the at the gray house it diverged and never and as as divergent lines are prone to do they keep growing further further apart now grandmother gloria, you dispute the existence of this house?

Yes, I do. Okay. I can't ask you to describe an absence. No. But how do you explain? Well, yes, there was a field of hay between us and the creek, and they didn't go in the street to go down to the creek. They crossed the field.

So you're saying that, first of all may i ask was this was the hay uh gray and house-shaped by any chance it was green in the spring and it was brown in the fall green and spring brown in the fall nothing unusual or house-shaped there and even though your daughter denise says that she would not pass through that field because it was private property uh you're saying she as she routinely passed through that field she returned routinely passed through that field it was private property but there were no houses there and nobody was in the area and they feel to go the creek. They didn't go in the street to do it. So it was private property, but your daughter was just a mischief-making trespasser. Right.

All right. Why do you think she remembers a house there when clearly none was there? I have no idea. She has a very vivid imagination. She's very talented, and she's an artist and very creative. But other than that... Did she ever describe other things that you do not believe existed or could be verified to not exist? She works with clay a lot and she

has to... The clay has to tell her what to make out of it before she can make it. Okay. I am personally neither drunk nor high at the moment, so I don't understand what you just said. Could you explain what you mean? She's a potter. She works with clay. She makes things out of clay, makes ceramics and stuff. And the clay tells her what to make?

Yes. And you're speaking metaphorically? Yes. For the act of inspiration. Right. You believe simply that your daughter is a trespasser, but that she is not a mentally ill, hallucinating person. I don't believe she's a trespasser, and I don't believe she's mentally ill. All right.

So you have affection for your daughter. Great deal. Thank you. It's a first you have affection for your daughter. Great deal. Thank you. It's a first here on the Judge Shemotron podcast. Just remember, she's taking care of me. I have a great deal of affection for her. Ma'am, is there anything else you'd like to tell us? Do you need help of any kind right now?

I may after today. If you are being held against your will, would you just remain silent for the moment? I say we'll have someone come up. Rebecca, you are the granddaughter. You're the daughter of Denise and the daughter of Gloria. I am. Yes. Please stop laughing or I'm going to make you stand up again.

I'm appreciating how well you're managing this conversation, Judge. Do you have difficulty managing it? I mean, why are you even here? That's my question. I am here, first of all, because I'm a loyal fan of the podcast and I felt that

because the Greyhouse Universe is a recurring theme of conversation, it didn't seem to me that anyone would be able to satisfactorily resolve this issue except for you. You're the one with the necessary expertise. You are clarified buttering me up. That will get you only so far. Explain to me how the Greyhouse universe comes into play in your life, in your life, as well as the life of your family? Firstly, if you spend any amount of time with my mother and my grandmother, which I do, you will hear repeated reference to the Grey House universe as the place where they

dispose of all of their disagreements. So, there'll be a conversation where they'll say, I think that's on the north side of the street, and the other one will say it's on the south side of the street, and the first one will say, well, in the Greyhouse universe, it's on the north side of the street. Or, you like this kind of food? No, I don't like this kind of food. Well, in the Greyhouse universe, you do like this kind of food. And how many disagreements are they having about objectifiably verifiable facts? More than you could imagine.

Kind of a lot, yes. So I would say if you spend roughly three hours with them, you'll hear at least one reference to the Greyhouse universe. And how do you get implicated in this, aside from having to hear, you all live together? Where are you all located now, if I may ask? I live in portland oregon portland oregon all right by which i mean i live in the urban part of the city and they live uh out in suburbia uh and and and i presume in portland there you you run a little organic vinyl record shop or something i'll never stop i'll never stop portland on on a side note um i read an article today about an artisanal pencil sharpener, which seemed very Portland to me. Oh, tell me more about that.

He's a gentleman who charges $15 for sharpening a pencil. It takes him about a half an hour. He issues a certificate of sharpness. Yes. Apparently, he's from New York, but he will be here on the 26th, and I know some people who are very eager to have their pencils. I don't know exactly when this podcast will come out, but can you remember the name of the artisanal pencil sharpener? I could know it within moments. Let me tell you what it is. It is David Reese. Ah, thank you. And does he have a book that is out now?

I don't know. It is called How to Sharpen Pencils. He's probably speaking at Powell's. I love it. And is there a foreword to this book? The answer is yes. Oh my gosh, is it written by you? And is it written by me?

Of course it is. Yay! Did you seriously bring up artisanal pencil sharpening not knowing that I am at the center, the white hot center of the, the white hot graphite center of the artisanal pencil sharpening, not knowing that I am at the center, the white hot center of the, the white hot graphite center of the artisanal pencil sharpening movement. And that David Reese is my friend. I had no idea. I had no idea. The best piece of buzz marketing I've ever had on this, on this, in this courtroom. And I appreciate it very much. We had a long conversation

at work yesterday about pencil sharpening. And then I stumbled across link today, which is becoming quite popular. Well, I appreciate it. I appreciate it very much. And if you had yesterday about pencil sharpening, and then I stumbled across Link Today, which is becoming quite popular. Well, I appreciate it. I appreciate it very much. And if you had anything at all to do with this case, I would find in your favor. But apparently you're just podcast stalking at this point. So I'm going to talk to the people who are actually having a fight.

Denise, mother of Rebecca, daughter of Gloria, describe to me in as much detail as possible the Gray House. The Gray House was, let's see, small, single story, maybe 900 to 1,000 square feet, just guessing because I was never in it. Had a little cement front and forth. You didn't have your Oregonian hemp tape measure with you at all times? No, I'm afraid not, darn it. When I was that young, I didn't know about Oregonian hemp. Anyway, no, I did

not measure the house, and I didn't ever approach it. My sister, who remembers it, but is not present today, she did approach it once. Is she still living? Is she alive? Oh, yes, she lives in Seattle. I just couldn't get her to... Oh, I see. She lives in that alternate dimension. Yes, it is, too. I could not get her to submit a written statement of her memory of the greenhouse. Why not? She's one busy

girl, that girl. So, she's not disputing. She's not saying... No. No, she's not saying, I can't put it down in writing. No, she's just preoccupied with her family business and things. And I think she did not really understand the implications of being guests on the podcast. Yeah, you think maybe not everyone in the world has time to sit and talk about childhood memories on a podcast? That's the difference right there between Seattle and Portland. Yeah, there you go. Oh, my dear. Well, I have a brother who lives in San Diego and a sister who lives in Seattle.

All right. Do you speak for all the siblings? My brother agrees with my mom because he says he was too young to retain any memory of it, so whatever mom says is right. My sister and I both agree on the existence of the Gray House. Okay. And so it was a one-story house? Story little house. It had a sort of a gravel path-like driveway leading back to it. It was set a little further back from the street than our house was. And we would come along the road, cross that driveway, and go into the shrubbery down to the creek. And was it, you say that no one was living there, but it was a home in which someone would

live. It could not be, say, a shed or a shack. No, as I remember it, it was lived in. It was inhabited. Oh, I thought you said no one was living there. Oh, maybe I misspoke. I never went there, but I sure had the impression that it was vacant. So your impression was that humans were inside of it sometimes. Did they have a television antenna or not? I don't remember a television antenna. Did it have a porch? It did have a porch, a cement front porch

with about three steps going up to it. Okay. And was there anything on the porch? Was there a swing or any plants or potted plants? No, the front door was a little bit recessed. So you would step into a little alcove before you knocked on the door, which was set back a little bit. But I don't recall anything being on the porch. It wasn't a very large space. What color was the door? Dark colored. I don't know if it was brown or black.

It didn't stand out from the house, and it was a little bit in the shadows. How many windows would you say it had? Well, on the side that we saw going to the creek, it had one large window on either side of that front door. I don't know about the other sides of the house because I don't recall ever going around that way. Was it a clabbered house or was it a stucco exterior? Shingle? What do you call that? Clapboard? Well, like wooden shingles.

Wooden, I don't know the name. Clapboard. Clapboard. Is that it? Okay, clapboard. Yeah. Your mother and I agree on at least that. Was it a pitched roof or was it a flat roof?

Was it a pitched roof or a flat roof? It was slightly pitched. It wasn't a very steep. And maybe that's part of the reason why I remember it is because I was used to houses with steeply pitched roofs. Sure, well, you lived in a normal family. A normal family. You were a steeply pitched roof people. Yes, well, and our houses had, well, not in that house.

Usually there'd be an attic or some space up there. This place maybe did have that, but it was not as steeply pitched a roof as I was used to thinking of. Did it have a chimney? I remember a chimney, yes. A brick chimney or a stovepipe chimney? Brick chimney. Okay. And was there anything in the yard? The grass was tall. Maybe that's what mom's referring to about the hayfield. There was

tall grass most of the front. So you really only saw the house as you crossed the drive area. Look, I don't want you putting words in your mom's mouth. I don't want you painting your mother as saying, like, oh, yeah, there was a house there, but it had tall grass. Oh, yeah, that's just a hayfield. Well, no, but the yard was sort of obscured. So by the tall grass down near the front of the road, so I don't recall very much about the yard. I actually don't recall anything about the yard. Now, I'm going to ask you this question.

I want you to think very seriously before you answer. Could it be that it was a TARDIS? Oh, no, I never thought about that. But I suppose if that was the case, it would be there sometimes and not other times, right? Yes. It would be, yeah. It would all be relative. Grandmother Gloria? Yes. You've heard a very

distinct description of this house. Do you believe that this is all from your daughter's imagination? Oh, no. We lived in a house very similar to the one she describes. Aha! So, like the police artist, the classic police artist fallacy, she is describing as her attacker the very person who is making the sketch. The very thing that is right in front of her.

Right. That's very compelling. And do you believe that your other daughter is suffering the same, let's say, not mass hysteria, but dual hysteria? No, I don't think so. I think she's just agreeing with her older sister because the older sister was always in charge. And so whatever the older sister says is true. I see. Okay, easy, Denise, because if you want to make a case for yourself that you're not an incredibly delusional controlling person who is keeping your mother hostage and forcing

your sister to agree with you, if indeed there is a sister at this point, I have to question even that, then I would not, then I would not jump in at this point. This is me not jumping. Go ahead, Gloria. You were about to say something else. No, no. Other than in the same general areas as the place we're speaking of, but there was another house where we lived for a while, and it was a gray house, and it was about just almost identical to what she described,

but we lived in that house, and it was up the road a ways and across the street. So she might be confusing it with another house? It's possible in a child's imagination. I don't like to destroy a child's imagination because there's nothing better than that. That's where you and I differ. I'm sorry to hear that. Child's imagination is a wonderful thing. I feel children should start growing up and stop seeing houses. That's another one of those portlets. That's the way I was raised, and it's wrong.

All right. And Gloria, can you give me some examples of where you and Denise disagree such that you have to invoke the Greyhouse Universe rule? Cooking, gardening, tomato plants. Are there any areas where you

actually agree on something? Yes, her cooking is wonderful. She takes very good care of me most of the time. And I wish she could retire so we could both enjoy retirement. Raymond was the kindest, sweetest, most important leader I ever had in Korea. For a summary judgment, can any of you name the piece of culture? I'm very badly paraphrasing at that very moment. No, I don't know that one.

It is Frank Sinatra after he has been brainwashed in the Manchurian Candidate. Oh, really? I never saw the Manchurian Candidate. Well, I think you should both look into it because it is a movie about conflicting and confused memories. It may be that one of you thought you were playing near a gray house when it turns out you were actually being brainwashed in Korea. That may be.

Rebecca, why haven't you, an able-bodied young person living in Portland, ridden your penny-farthing bicycle out to where your mom grew up to do some detective work? My understanding, well, the answer is twofold, actually, Judge Hodgman. So my understanding, well, the answer is twofold, actually, Judge Hodgman. My understanding is that the part of town in which this all took place is significantly different now than it was at the time and has been much more developed and doesn't resemble what it did at the time. And the other reason is that I am not sure, given the situation of the Great House Universe, I'm not sure that appealing to empiricism is actually going to resolve this again because they argue about things that are in fact verifiable but clearly a choice has been made to not verify

because it could be easily verified one way or another could it not? my thought was to go to the county and get a plat map that would have been accurate about that period. But I didn't want to destroy the discussion with mere fact. And I thought it would be nice. I didn't want to come to mom and say, see, you were wrong.

So I was pretty sure I would be right. You are an extremely unusual daughter. I am that. If she could prove I was wrong, she'd do it. Really? Okay, I'm going to the county, man. Gloria,

is the house that you raised your children in that is either next to or not next to a gray house, or was next to or not next to a gray house, does that house still exist? No, heavens no. I raised my three children in about 20 different houses

because we moved at least 100 times. Do you feel that the existence or non-existence of the gray house could be verified in that neighborhood now? No. Like Denise says, I think we'd have to go see if we could find some maps of that era and see if there were houses there. There were very few houses out there then, and now it's a solid mass of houses and apartments. If I may chime in also. Who's speaking now?

Sorry, this is Rebecca. Okay. A couple of weeks ago, my mother was also describing to me a memory of there being construction in that neighborhood and playing in a pile of dirt. And my grandmother likewise does not remember any of that taking place. That's very true. At the same place and along that same stretch of road. The road used to have a curve and there were, this is Denise again, there were several car accidents along there. And so the powers that be decided to straighten it out.

And during the construction process, we did go down there, my mom and dad and my brother and sister and I all, and played in the construction, you know, ran around in the construction site and jumped off this high hill and rolled down the hill and came back up and mom didn't have any memory of that whole business of road being straightened or of us going down there and playing during the after hours of the construction process. So, there are numerous instances where one of us kids will remember something and mom will say that didn't happen or vice versa, but then that's happened to me as a mom too too, with Rebecca. So I think it's an confused. And that a child's memory is imperfect. And you're saying your mom is what? Willfully denying the truth? Willfully denying the truth? Or is herself incompetent when it comes to remembering this particular place?

No, there. I think that there's probably, I was having, when we were going down to that construction site, I was having a fabulous time, so it stood out in my memory. For her, she was probably thinking about 400 different things, and it wasn't memorable for her, so it just didn't register. Because children are dumb, you understand that, right? As a mother, yes, when I was a child, I thought we were brilliant. But when I became a mother, I thought, oh, these are dumb people. Because here's the thing. I am myself a parent. And the young people that are in my life have incredibly sharp memories for very small details, right?

Because they don't have a lot to remember. So there's that in your favor. At the same time, the six-year-old in my life, a male child, who has an incredible memory for those little things, routinely wakes up every day asking, what day is this? Is this Saturday? Well, I do that, and I'm not an expert. Well, yes, but ma'am, you've earned it.

You're not a dum-dum like my son. Oh, no, no, you shouldn't say that about your son. You know that that's not what I actually believe, ma'am. I know. You sounded serious. Well, that's part of my charm. Oh. I hope your son thinks you're charming, too.

Well, I have every confidence that 20 years from now, we'll work it out on a podcast. But for now, we're getting along fine. Now, here's the thing. First of all, Denise. Yes. Do you want to know the answer to this? I'm pretty convinced that I'm right. And I didn't want to destroy a kind of a youthful family tool for disposing of these kinds of discrepancies in

memory. But I do think if I went down to the county and got a plat map from 1965, I would find that there was a house there. And Grandmother Gloria, how will you feel if you are wrong? I would accept it, but I think it's more fun to have this as a I would accept it, but I think it's more fun to have this as a place to end a dispute between us about something else that might happen, and we can always file everything under the Grey House illusion. And how will you feel if you are right? I wouldn't want Denise to know that I was right, because I wouldn't want to destroy her memories. And Denise, why are you laughing uproariously at a very sweet sentiment that your mom said? I think that's very sweet of her.

But are you planning some punishment for her later? No, probably not. Let me assure you that the court takes elder abuse very seriously. You're not going to make her watch Dancing with the Stars or something, are you? No, are you kidding? No, she'll probably want to watch a Cubs game. Oh, boy, sports. Well, with that, I will retire to my chambers and make my decision.

I'll be back soon. Great, thank you. Thank you. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Denise, I have a question for you. Have you and your mother ever had to consign to this house dimension a dispute over a person rather than a thing? Well, there was a recent discussion about the first time that we

met our stepfather. And so that would be a person. And I remembered it being when we were living on that street. And she remembers it being as sometime later. Here's my concern, Denise. If we destroy this dimension, will that make you a murderer? Well, I guess it depends on who's in the dimension at the time. If it's, if it's, uh, hmm. You're ready to kill. Not a murderer. I would say no, not a murderer.

You're sharpening your knives right now. Oh, never, never, never. Oh, never, never, never. Gloria, it sounds like you have reservations about both ways that this case could turn out. Yeah, I do. I hope I kind of hope it stays in limbo because I don't want to destroy her memories. But I just know I'm right. So it doesn't bother me. You know, we're both in the same boat. I just know I'm right, so it doesn't bother me, you know.

We're both in the same boat. We're both convinced that we're right, but neither one of us wants the other one to be injured or offended or have hurt feelings. Rebecca, how are you feeling? You're hoping to get out from under the weight of this thing. Well, you know, that's the challenge is I think the philosophical implications are interesting. And at the same time, I agree that the Greyhouse universe is a convenient place to dispose of disagreements that might otherwise need to be resolved, given the strong personalities of the people who are utterly convinced that they are right. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. I don't know if this house exists.

I mean, you asked me to rule on it, but I think really what this is is a ruling on whether or not I'm going to compel someone to go and verify the existence of this house. It is clearly verifiable, and I could verify it, but that would require resources, time, discipline, and work that I simply do not feel like deploying. Because really it's none of my business, and I won't care. And in many ways, the idea of the house being proved to exist is much more disappointing than the question of whether or not it does exist. And the memory that you have of it, Denise, is so incredibly creepy and Ringu-like that I really would not want to ruin that for the world because we all do have memories from childhood of those weird, incongruous places.

They're like, was that really there? The tan stucco service building for the huge playground abutting my elementary school with my older friend, Peter Rosenmeier, who was the sort of person who would the on the makeshift pool not makeshift but the the rundown pool table uh that the the the caretakers of the playground had there and i i in like in only the light from the windows because the electricity didn't work so much of that is strange uh that i i almost don't want to even verify that that thing is there because uh it's so creepy to remember us doing that uh especially when you consider that we were surrounded at all times by 75 owls with glowing eyes was that true i don't remember it's hard i don't know if i want to know the truth. I also remember vaguely the creature double feature that would play on Channel 56 in Boston in the afternoon. They would usually show Godzilla movies, but every now and then they would show really weird, scary movies from the 70s like Race with the Devil, a lot of Satan worship movies and Demon Dog, the Beast from Hell, like all these weird movies. And there was

one movie that for literally 25 years, I wasn't sure if I had actually seen it. Because it was such a strange movie. And there was a woman taking a shower and three little creatures emerging from a cupboard with a straight razor. And then... Ew, my... cupboard with a straight razor. And then, yeah, yeah. No kidding. Right. And let me tell you something. When you go, when you finally discover after 25 years of nightly brain searching and then IMDB searching, you finally discover that it was the TV movie. Don't be afraid of the dark and you see it. It's not as scary.

of the dark and you see it, it's not as scary. It's not as scary as thinking that maybe that was a product of your own imagination. So in many ways, I do feel that, and obviously the not knowing about the mysterious gray house, even the name of the thing is ambiguous. gray house. Even the name of the thing is ambiguous. Neither white nor black is so functional within your obviously contentious relationship. It provides such a suitable function. And not only does it help you to resolve disputes of both fact and opinion on politics and religion, which frankly, let's face it, no one wants to talk about, right? Amen. Yeah, that I hesitate to get rid of it, especially since the alternative would be for one of you to say to the other, let's agree to disagree,

at which point you should both shoot each other with crossbows because that's the stupidest thing anyone can ever say. I mean, now you're going to have a chance to put all that stuff away with a science fiction theme. You're putting it in an alternate universe that you acknowledge exists but is not a part of your world. So I think it's beautiful. So I was, you know, my inclination is to maintain this mystery for both of you. Yay! Thank you. Yay! Thank you. That's the best

decision ever. Yes, and yet I have Rebecca here. The troublemaker. Right, who has nothing to do with either of, who has nothing to do with this entire dispute and just lives in Portland listening to podcasts and trying to gin up stuff to talk about on the air.

And Rebecca, you seem very nice, but, and I was going to leave you out of this, but then I was coming back from chambers and you started talking about the philosophical implications. I could not allow that to go unpunished. When you use the words philosophical implications, I'm like, no, we got to come up with some busy work for her. So I think... Oh, my goodness. I think this is going to be a little bit, this is going to be a contentious decision, I can tell. I think for the interest of history, and for the interest of punishing you, and giving and

reminding you that there is more to life than listening to podcasts. I now leave it to you to verify the existence or non-existence of this and to keep the answer a secret. I like that. You may call upon the small army of Judge John Hodgman listeners who will crowdsource some of your research. And maybe you can figure out a way to translate the scatter graphs of data that they give to you into some kind of bizarre crocheting project so you can still save some face in portland but i but i want you to i want you to go and and find out the truth and then put that truth in an envelope and seal it so that so that you at all times if anything gets too heated between your mom and your grandmom you can threaten to open that thing and settle it once and for all.

This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Gloria, I think you are in the most difficult position here. How are you feeling? Oh, I feel wonderful. I just had a great time. I just feel sorry for Rebecca because it's not her fault.

By difficult position, do you mean that she's tied to a rocking chair in a room that has the lights on all the time, all night long? Sorry. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Jessie. I apologize. I'll go back to Chambers. I mean only that her granddaughter has elder abused her by means of podcast. I think she gives as good as she gets. Denise, how are you feeling? I'm doing fine. I think that that's a very good idea to put it on Rebecca to sort it out. And then she can just hold it over both of us. She can say, you be quiet or I will tell you the truth.

And we'll both shut up. Rebecca, are you ready to head to the county clerk? I think this is a brilliant, elegant solution. And I like being the one who knows who is right. Yes, she does. Are you prepared to take the time out of your ironic canning schedule? Yes, absolutely. Well, Rebecca, Denise, Gloria,

thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you, guys. Bye. A lively exchange, eh, Judge Hodgman?. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you guys. Bye. A lively exchange, eh Judge Hodgman? Yeah, it was really interesting. Jesse?

Yes? Do you see that mothman over there or is that just me? I do not see that mothman. Okay, good to know. And what should I do with all these prophecies? Um, I don't know, I guess just shove them in the gray house universe good idea but in this universe we have a docket to clear i believe we sure do

okay here's something from alejandra alejandra she says i think we're actually legally obliged to say it in that voice when we get a letter from someone named Alejandra. Alejandra. My husband Jack forces me My husband Jack. My husband Jack forces me to attend all the latest Hollywood blockbuster movies with him.

I do not like these kind of movies but I go along because he has no one else to go with and I want to be nice to him. But then Jack gets mad at me when I go when I want to spend the last half hour playing with my iPhone in the lobby and waiting for him by the ladies room. Did I mention that we're both 30? He says that my inability to sit through these kinds of movies shows that I have no attention span and no appreciation for film. I think that he should appreciate my nice gesture of accompanying him in the first place.

I seek an injunction preventing Jack from dragging me to these movies or an order that if I do attend, I'd be allowed to leave and wander about the cinema plex. First of all, uh, Jack, you, this will never work out. Alejandra

has a perfectly fine attention span and she has, I'm sure, a perfectly fine taste. It just does not happen to be your taste. You cannot force someone to like something

you do not like. This is something that I speak of from deep and painful experience, where as much as I love The Third Man, I have been trying to get my wife to watch The Third Man since our very first date, and she still will not watch it. She won't even watch it?

No, she will not watch it. She will not watch it. Can you even get her to watch the carousel scene on, I the merry-go-round what's that thing called uh ferris wheel scene the cuckoo clock scene on youtube i forcing someone to watch a piece of culture that you like is one of the most monumentally offensive things you can do. Cornering them and putting even the carousel scene, or excuse me, the Ferris wheel scene in someone's face is a monumentally weird and gross thing to do. Even the pogo stick scene.

Are we talking about the same scene? Oh, I think, no, no. You're talking about the third man in the gray house dimension right sorry the alternate universe you're talking about the the the third man from earth two uh so uh yeah the the she doesn't like these kinds of movies she's never gonna like them if she liked it she would watch it and you there's no point in trying to insist that she like something and you should appreciate the fact that she's no point in trying to insist that she like something. And you should appreciate the fact that she's going to the movies with you because she is being nice. The sooner you appreciate that there are just some movies that she's not going to like,

and you can't force her to like them and trying to is bad news for everybody, the more harmonious your relationship will be. Because one thing I will tell you, that even though there may be no third man in your life, and even though you may never actually be able to watch, say, Game of Thrones together, you'll be surprised that there is also a Breaking Bad that you will both love passionately. And you will find those things in your life that you both really enjoy. That said, Alejandra, I'm going to tell you something.

If you go to the movies, you've got to sit through the whole movie. You can't get up and wander around the theater because you're not a child. Similarly, you're not allowed to go to the restaurant and after you finish your entree just wander around

and hang out in the phone booth reading tintin comics while your parents have coffee the time in your life is over i cannot enjoin yak from inviting you to the movies because he's free to do that and you're free to say no and i think if you don't want to go you shouldn shouldn't go. But if you do go, you got to sit through the whole movie. Hey, MaximumFun.org is looking for summer interns. You can find more information at MaximumFun.org

slash internships. Students preferred, but non-students certainly considered. We've had both. We've had all kinds of interesting interns and we just got an office, so you'll be working out of our beautiful new office. Oh, is that true?

You have an office now? It's true. Where is it? It has a panoramic view of downtown Los Angeles. Oh, and will you be doing recording from there as well? Yes. Oh, this is a big change in the life of Maximum Fun. Is it not?

It is. A special shout out to everyone who donated during the MaxFunDrive. Congratulations to Maximum Fun and thanks again for everyone who donated. Now interns, why don't you send in your request for a

consideration to where? Just go to MaximumFun.org slash internships and all the information is there. MaximumFun.org slash internships, and all the information is there. MaximumFun.org slash internships. I could not, you know, I've not worked for anybody for a long time, but I could not imagine a nicer group of people to work for than you. You're not going to, you wouldn't tie anybody up in a rocking chair, right?

In the fruit cellar? I mean, if it came to it, but it seems unlikely. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. The Judge John Hodgman Podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego,

in iTunes or online at GoSuperEgo.com. You can find John Hodgman online at AreasOfMyExpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts case for Judge John Hodgman, go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts about the show, join the conversation on our forum at Forum.MaximumFun.org and our Facebook group at Facebook.com slash Judge John Hodgman. We'll see you online and next time right here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.