Judge John Hodgman - Rashomom (RERUN)

Episode Date: January 5, 2022

This week, we are revising RASHOMOM! A Judge John Hodgman Classic that originally ran nearly ten years ago! Rebekah, her mother Denise and grandmother Gloria bring to the court a generational clash of memory — specifically, whose memory is more reliable, an adult’s or a child’s? Denise is positive she lived next door to a grey house as a child, while Gloria insists the house exists only as a figment of her daughter’s imagination. Rebekah has played referee many times in the dispute of the Grey House Universe, but she has several issues of her own with her mother’s allegedly faulty memory. Each testimony accepted, each dispute resigned; it’s maternal sunshine of the spotless mind. In this match of memories, we turn to the man who never forgets: Judge John Hodgman!As the Judge mentioned, check out David Rees' book HOW TO SHARPEN PENCILS. And make sure to listen to the 12/28/21 episode of ELECTION PROFIT MAKERS, "Episode 126: Florida Pizza Restaurant Infomercial," for something unexpectedly meaningful and heartfelt.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. With me is Judge John Hodgman. Happy New Year to all of you. I don't like to say Happy New Year. I like to say Hopeful New Year. Hopeful New Year to you. In honor of this wonderful new year, hopefully wonderful new year, we're running one of our all-time favorite episodes of Judge John Hodgman. It's one that we talk about all the time, but that you might not have heard. It is from quite a while ago. It's called Rasha Mom. This is episode 58. It originally ran almost a decade ago.

We often refer to it as the Gray house episode for reasons that you will understand it is about a dispute within a family as to whether or not a house existed or not yeah and amazing it was it was such an interesting exploration of ambiguity and its role in family lore that when the truth of the gray house was finally revealed. I think it was on a Reddit board somewhere or whatever. I read the truth and honestly, I decided to forget the truth and I still don't remember what's true and what's not. Yeah. You couldn't handle it. I couldn't handle the truth. Um, we also mentioned David Reese and his book, how to sharpen pencils in this episode, um, which came out around that time, which is a great book about literally how to sharpen pencils. I'd also like to direct your attention after this episode, go listen to the most recent

episode of Election Profit Makers, because David and John Kimball and Starley took this week off as well. And they invited one of their listeners, Satchel of Satchel's Pizza down in Jacksonville, Florida, to create the podcast for them this week. And Satchel did such an amazing job just telling his own story about starting a pizza place. I practically was crying at the end of it. It's such a hopeful story. This is a time when we need a lot of hope. And this is a time when we need to remind ourselves that we have to tolerate ambiguity and do the best we can in uncertain times. So I hope you will enjoy this episode. Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, Rasha Mom.

Rebecca, her mother Denise and grandmother Gloria have a case regarding memory. Specifically, is the memory of a child or an adult more reliable? Denise insists that a gray house stood next door to her childhood home. Gloria says that's simply not true and that the house must be a figment of Denise's imagination. Rebecca's been dragged in to adjudicate their dispute before, but she's got issues of her own with her mom's recollections of past events. Who's right? Who's wrong? Who can even remember? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. To a dispute then, I owe my first gleam of consciousness since the first creatures on earth to become aware of time

were also the first creatures to judge. Bailiff Jesse, please swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth of the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he has no need for a memory since he purchased a 64 kilobit sharp personal organizer? I do. I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman?

Sharp. Very sharp. This is actually a dispute between a mother and a grandmother with a daughter sort of falling in the middle. Is that correct? It is. All right. Now, who speaks right then? I'm Rebecca.

I'm the granddaughter. And you are the granddaughter. Judge Hodgman, may we be seated? For your impudence, no. And now you may be seated only because you are hard working women who deserve a seat thank you

now Rebecca you are the granddaughter your mother is Denise, may I hear your voice please yes, I'm Denise and then Gloria you are the grandmother in this situation yes I am. Your mother is Denise. May I hear your voice, please? Yes, I'm Denise. Denise. And then, Gloria, you are the grandmother in this situation? Yes, I am. Very well.

First of all, let me just point out that Gloria, the grandmother, has the best Skype connection of all. So, shame on both you, Denise and Rebecca. God, thank you. Now, for an immediate summary judgment in your favor, Rebecca, can you name the piece of culture that I paraphrased when I entered the courtroom? I'm afraid I cannot, and I expected that question. No, I can't. Denise or Gloria, can either of you, for an immediate summary judgment in your favor? No, and I knew you'd do this. When I heard the Princess Bride one. I said, oh, I know that one. But no, I'm not familiar with this one.

It was a paraphrase of Vladimir Nabokov's Speak Memory. Really? Okay. It's been a long time since I've read that. Well, I don't know. I looked it up on the internet earlier. I may have forgotten. Rebecca, you are the mediating factor here.

This fight is actually between your mom and your grandmom, Denise, the mother. What is it that you and your mother, Gloria, disagree over? time a little two-lane road and east of us probably less than a quarter of a mile was about it was a little creek where we used to play all the time my brother um who's was four or five at the time my sister who was um was about a year behind me and then me the oldest and so we were running up and down that street to the creek all the time and so please tell me, what state was this in? Oregon. Where in Oregon? Not too far from Portland, a very rural area at the time. It's very developed now, but it was a farming country then. I see. And you were sustainably raising organic chickens and giving each other tattoos? Absolutely. No tattoos, but there were chickens and a big garden, yes. But there were chickens and a big garden, yes.

All right. And without getting too deeply into personal matters, may I inquire as to the year, more or less, of this happening? Yes. It would have been 61, 62, early – and into 63 because we lived in that house at the Kennedy assassination. So that was 63. All right. And so some simple math tells me that that was at the Kennedy assassination, so that was 63. All right. And so some simple math tells me that that was about 100 years ago. Is that correct?

Roughly. It certainly feels like it, yes. All right. And you were the oldest of the three siblings. You were the youngest, excuse me? I'm the oldest. You're the oldest. Okay. And so what is it that you remember that your mother, Gloria, does not remember?

Between our house and the creek, there was another house. It was a little gray house. We did not know the people who lived in the house. Our folks had a lot of respect for private property. If you run to the creek, you stay on the road. You don't go in the neighbor's property. So we always circled around. Mom does not remember the existence of that house,

so my sister and I, who do, have referred to it in conversation, and she says there was no gray house, and we said, yes, there was. So, our family has evolved the device of the gray house universe, which is in the universe that I live in, which had a gray house in it, this is the way the world was. But mom says in the universe that I live in, there had a gray house in it, this is the way the world was. But mom says in the universe that I live in, there is no gray house, and this is the way the universe works. So you were describing the theory, the physics theory of many worlds? Yeah, something along those lines. You and your mother are now living in parallel dimensions?

Yes, precisely. At the gray house, it diverged, and as divergent lines are prone to do, they keep growing further apart. Now, Grandmother Gloria, you dispute the existence of this house? Yes, I do. Okay. I can't ask you to describe an absence. No. But how do you explain it? Well, yes, there was a field of hay between us and the creek, and they didn't go in the street to go down to the creek. They crossed the field.

So you're saying that, first of all, may I ask, was the hay gray and house-shaped by any chance? No, it was green in the spring, and it was brown in the fall. Green in spring, brown in the fall, nothing unusual or house-shaped there. And even though your daughter Denise says that she would not pass through that field because it was private property, you're saying she routinely passed through that field. She routinely passed through that field. It was private property, but there were no houses there, and nobody was in the area.

And they crossed that field to go to the creek. They didn't go in the street to do it. So it was private property, but your daughter was just a mischief-making trespasser. Right. All right. Why do you think she remembers a house there when clearly none was there?

I have no idea. She has a very vivid imagination. She's very talented and she's an artist and very creative. But other than that... Did she ever describe other things that you do not believe existed or could be verified to not exist? existed or could be verified to not exist? She works with clay a lot and she has to, the clay has to tell her what to make out of it before she can make it. Okay. I am personally neither drunk nor high at the moment, so I don't understand what you just said. Could you explain what you mean? She's a potter. She works with clay. She makes things out of clay, makes ceramics and stuff.

And the clay tells her what to make? Yes. And you're speaking metaphorically? Yes. For the act of inspiration. Right. You believe simply that your daughter is a trespasser, but that she is not a mentally ill, hallucinating person. I don't believe she's a trespasser, and I don't believe she's mentally ill.

All right. So you have affection for your daughter. Great deal. Thank you. It's a first here on the Judge Shem Hodgeman podcast. Just remember, she's taking care of me. I have a great deal of affection for her. Ma'am, is there anything else you'd like to tell us?

Do you need help of any kind right now? I may after today. If you are being held against your will, would you just remain silent for the moment? I say we'll have someone come up. Rebecca? Yes? You are the granddaughter. You are the daughter of Denise and the daughter of Gloria.

I am, yes. Please stop laughing or I'm going to make you stand up again. I'm appreciating how well you're managing this conversation, Judge. Do you have difficulty managing it? I mean, why are you even here? That's my question. I am here, first of all, because I'm a loyal fan of the podcast. And I felt that because the Greyhouse universe is a recurring theme of conversation, it didn't seem to me that anyone would be able to satisfactorily resolve this issue except for you. You're the one with the necessary expertise. You are clarified buttering me up. That will get you only so far.

Shut up. That will get you only so far. Explain to me how the Greyhouse universe comes into play in your life, in your life, as well as the life of your family. the place where they dispose of all of their disagreements. So there'll be a conversation where they'll say, I think that's on the north side of the street. And the other one will say it's on the south side of the street. And the first one will say, well, in the Greyhouse universe, it's on the north side of the street. Or you like this food? No, I don't like this kind of food. Well, in the Greyhouse universe, you do like this kind of food.

And how many disagreements are they having about objectifiably verifiable facts more than you and i do a lot yes yes uh so i would say if you spend uh roughly three hours with them you'll hear at least one reference to the grey house universe and uh and how does this how do you get implicated in this, aside from having to hear, you all live together? Where are you all located now, if I may ask? I live in Portland, Oregon. In Portland, Oregon, all right. By which I mean I live in the urban part of the city, and they live out in suburbia. And I presume in Portland there, you run a little organic vinyl record shop or something?

I'll never stop. I'll never stop, Portland. On a side note, I read an article today about an artisanal pencil sharpener, which seemed very Portland to me. Oh, tell me more about that. He's a gentleman who charges $15 for sharpening a pencil. It takes him about a half an hour. He issues a certificate of sharpness. Yes.

for sharpening a pencil. It takes him about a half an hour. He issues a certificate of sharpness. Yes. Apparently he's from New York, but he will be here on the 26th. And I know some people who are very eager to have their pencils. I don't know exactly when this podcast will come out,

but can you remember the name of the artisanal pencil sharpener? I could know it within moments. I actually just tweeted about it. Let me tell you what it is. It is David Reese. Ah, thank you. And does he have a book that is out now?

I don't know. It is called How to Sharpen Pencils. He's probably speaking at Powell's. I love it. And is there a foreword to this book? The answer is yes. Oh my gosh, is it written by you? And is it written by me? Of course it is. Yay! Did you seriously bring up artisanal pencil sharpening not knowing that I am at the center,

the white hot center of the, the white hot graphite center of the artisanal pencil sharpening movement and that David Reese is my friend? I had no idea. That was the best piece of buzz marketing I've ever had on this, on this, in this courtroom and I appreciate it very much. I had a long conversation at work yesterday about pencil sharpening, and then I stumbled across Link Today, which is becoming quite popular. Well, I appreciate it very much. And if you had anything at all to do with this case, I would find in your favor.

But apparently you're just podcast stalking at this point. So I'm going to talk to the people who are actually having a fight. Denise, mother of Rebecca, daughter of Gloria, describe to me in as much detail as possible the Gray House. The Gray House was, let's see, small, single story, maybe 900 to 1,000 square feet, just guessing because I was never in it. Right. Had a little cement front and forth. You didn't have your Oregonian hemp tape measure with you at all times? No, I'm afraid not.

Darn it. When I was that young, I didn't know about Oregonian hemp. Oregon, you know, I didn't. Anyway, no, I did not measure the house, and I didn't ever approach it. My sister, who remembers it but is not present today, she did approach it once. Is she still living? Is she alive? Oh, yeah. She lives in Seattle. I just couldn't get her to. Oh, I see. She lives in that alternate dimension. Yes, it is too. I could not get her to submit a written statement of her memory of the greenhouse.

Why not? She's one busy girl, that girl. So she's not disputing. She's not saying, No. She's not saying, I can't put it down in writing. No, she's just preoccupied

with her family business and things. And I think she did not really understand the implications of being guests on the podcast. Yeah, you think maybe not everyone in the world has time to sit and talk about childhood memories on a podcast? That's the difference right there between Seattle and Portland.

Yeah, there you go. Oh, well, dear. Well, I have a brother who lives in San Diego and a sister who lives in Seattle. All right. Do you speak for all the siblings? My brother agrees with my mom because he says he was too young to retain any memory of it, so whatever mom says is right.

My sister and I both agree on the existence of the Gray House. Let's take a quick break from Rasha Mom to hear about this week's sponsor. When we come back, we'll hear a description of the Gray House. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs. They're Made In, Made In.

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help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations, and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world, and you get to hear the sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird, hyper-academic chore. It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now.

Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash hodgman, spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. So it was a one-story house. Story little house had a sort of a gravel path-like driveway leading back to it. It was set a little bit further back from the street than our house was. And we would come along the road, cross that driveway, and go into the shrubbery down to the creek.

And you say that no one was living there, but it was a home in which someone would live. It could not be, say, a shed or a shack. No, as I remember it, it was lived in. It was inhabited. Oh, I thought you said no one was living there. Oh, maybe I misspoke. Oh. I never went there, but I had the impression that it was vacant.

So your impression was that humans were inside of it sometimes. Did they have a television antenna or not? I don't remember a television antenna. Did it have a porch? It did have a porch, a cement front porch with about three steps going up to it. Okay. And was there anything on the porch? Was there a swing or any plants or potted plants?

No, the front door was a little bit recessed. So you would step into a little alcove before you knocked on the door, which was set back a little bit. But I don't recall anything being on the porch. It wasn't a very large space. What color was the door? Dark colored. I don't know if it was brown or black. It didn't stand out from the house.

And it was a little bit in the shadows. Yes. How many windows would you say it had well on the side that we saw going to the creek it had one large window on either side of that front door i don't know about the other sides of the house because i don't recall ever going around that way was it was it was it a was it a clabbered house or was it a was it a stucco exterior um shingle what do you call that um flatboard like wooden shingles wooden um clapboard clapboard is that it okay clapboard yeah your mother and i agree

was it a pitched roof or was it a was it a flat roof was it a pitched roof or a flat roof it was slightly pitched it wasn't a very steep, and maybe that's part of the reason why I remember it is because I was used to houses with steeply pitched roofs, you know, along the floor. Well, you lived in a normal family. A normal family. This house had a... You were a steeply pitched roof people. Yes, well, and our houses had, well, not in that house. Usually there'd be an attic or some space up there. This place maybe did have that, but it was not as steeply pitched a roof as I was used to thinking of. Did it have a chimney? I remember a chimney, yes. A brick chimney or a stovepipe chimney? Brick chimney. Okay. And

was there anything in the yard? The grass was tall. Maybe that's what mom's referring to about the hayfield. There was tall grass most of the front. So you really only saw the house as you crossed the drive area. Look, I don't want you putting words in your mom's mouth. I don't want you painting your mother as saying like, oh, yeah, there was a house there, but it had tall grass. Oh, yeah, that's just a hayfield. Well, no, but the yard was sort of obscured.ured by the tall grass down near the front of the road, so I don't recall very much about the yard. I actually don't recall anything about the yard.

Now, I'm going to ask you this question. I want you to think very seriously before you answer. Could it be that it was a TARDIS? Oh, no, I never thought about that. But I suppose if that was the case, it would be there sometimes and not other times, right? Yes, it would be. Yeah, it would all be relative. Yeah.

Grandmother Gloria. Yes. You've heard a very distinct description of this house. Do you believe that this is all from your daughter's imagination? Oh, no. We lived in a house very similar to the one she describes. Aha! Ah!

So, like the police artist, the classic... So, like the classic police artist fallacy, she is describing as her attacker the very person who is making the sketch, the very thing that is right in front of her. That's very compelling. And do you believe that your other daughter is suffering the same, let's say, not mass hysteria, but dual hysteria? No, I don't think so. I think she's just agreeing with her older sister because the older sister was always in charge.

And so whatever the older sister says is true. I see. Okay, easy, Denise, because if you want to make the case for yourself that you're not an incredibly delusional, controlling person who is keeping your mother hostage and forcing your sister to agree with you, if indeed there is a sister at this point, I have to question even that, then I would not jump in at this point. This is me not jumping.

Go ahead, Gloria. You were about to say something else. No, no. In the same general areas as the place we're speaking of. But there was another house where we lived for a while, and it was a gray house, and it was about just almost identical to what she described. But we lived in that house, and it was up the road a ways and across the street. So she might be confusing it with another house? It's possible in a child's imagination. I don't like to destroy a child's imagination because there's nothing better than that. That's where you and I differ.

I'm sorry to hear that. Child's imagination is a wonderful thing. I feel children should start growing up and stop seeing houses. This is another one of those portlets. That's the way I was raised, and it's wrong. All right. And, Gloria, can you give me some examples of where you and Denise disagree such that you have to invoke the Greyhouse Universe rule? Cooking, gardening, tomato plants. Are there any areas where you actually agree on something? Yes, her cooking is wonderful. She takes very good care of me most of the time.

And I wish she could retire so we could both enjoy retirement. Raymond was the kindest, sweetest, most important leader I ever had in Korea. For a summary judgment, can any of you name the piece of culture? I'm very badly paraphrasing at that very moment. No, I don't know that one. It is Frank Sinatra after he has been brainwashed in the Manchurian Candidate. Oh, really? I never saw the Manchurian Candidate. Oh, really? I never saw the Manchurian Candidate.

Well, I think you should both look into it because it is a movie about conflicting and confused memories. It may be that one of you thought you were playing near a gray house when it turns out you were actually being brainwashed in Korea.

Rebecca, why hasn't you, an able-bodied young person living in Portland, ridden your penny-farthing bicycle out to where your mom grew up to do some detective work? My understanding, well, the answer is twofold actually judge hodgman my understanding is that the part of town in which this all took place is significantly different now than it was at the time and has been much more developed and doesn't resemble what it did at the time and the other reason is that i am not sure, given the situation of the Great House Universe, I'm not sure that appealing to empiricism is actually going to resolve this. Again, because they argue about things that are in fact verifiable. Well, but clearly a choice has been made to not verify. Yes.

Because it could be easily verified one way or another, could it not? My thought was to go to the county and get a plat map that would have been accurate about that period. But I didn't want to destroy the discussion with mere fact. And I thought it would be nice. I didn't want to come to mom and say, see, you were wrong.

So I was pretty sure I would be right. You are an extremely unusual daughter. I am that. If she could prove I was wrong, I would be right you are an extremely unusual daughter I am that if she could prove I was wrong she'd do it really? okay I'm going to the county man Gloria is the house that

that you raised your children in that is either next to or not next to a grey house or was next to or not next to a gray house or was next to or not next to a gray house? Does that house still exist? No, heavens no. I raised my three children in about 20 different houses because we moved at least 100 times. Do you feel that the existence or non-existence of the gray house could be verified in that neighborhood now?

the existence or non-existence of the Gray House could be verified in that neighborhood now? No. Like Denise says, I think we'd have to go see if we could find some maps of that era and see if there were houses there. There were very few houses out there then, and now it's a solid mass of houses and apartments. If I may chime in also. Who is speaking now? Sorry, this is Rebecca. Okay. A couple of weeks ago, my mother was also describing to me a memory of there being construction in that neighborhood and playing in a pile of dirt. And my grandmother likewise does not remember any of that taking place.

That's very true. At the same place and along that same stretch of road. The road used to have a curve and there were, this denise again there were several car accidents along there and so the powers that be decided to straighten it out and uh during the construction process we did go down there um my mom and dad and my brother and sister and i all and played in the construction you know ran around in the construction site and jumped off this high hill and rolled down the hill and came back up. And mom didn't have any memory of that whole business of road being straightened or of us going down there and playing during the after hours of the construction process. So there are numerous instances where one of us kids will remember something and mom will say that didn't happen

or vice versa. But then that's happened to me as a mom too with Rebecca. So I think it's an occupational hazard of parenting. Well, so you're suggesting, your mom is being pretty reasonable. She's saying, I don't believe that my daughter hallucinated things. I think she's just confused. And that a child's memory is imperfect. And you're saying your mom is what? Willfully denying the truth? Willfully denying the truth? Or is herself incompetent when it comes to remembering this particular place?

No, I think that there's probably, I was having, when we were going down to that construction site, I was having a fabulous time, so it stood out in my memory. For her, she was probably thinking about 400 different things, and it wasn't memorable for her, so it just didn't register. Because children are dumb, you understand that, right? As a mother, yes, when I was a child, I thought we were brilliant. But when I became a mother, I thought, oh, these are dumb people. Because here's the thing. Here's the thing. I am myself a parent. And the young people that are in my life have incredibly sharp memories for very small details, right? Because they don't have a lot to remember. So there's that in your favor. At the same time, the six-year-old in my life, a male child,

who has an incredible memory for those little things, routinely wakes up every day asking, is this, what day is this? Is this Saturday? Well, I do that, and I'm not an expert. Well, yes, but ma'am, you've earned it. Thank you. You're not a dum-dum like my son. Oh, no, no, you shouldn't say that about your son. You know that that's not what I actually believe, ma'am.

I know. You know that that's not what I actually believe, ma'am. I know. You sounded serious. Well, that's part of my charm. Oh. I hope your son thinks you're charming, too. Well, I have every confidence that 20 years from now we'll work it out on a podcast. But for now, we're getting along fine. Now, here's the thing.

First of all, Denise. Yes. Do you want to know the answer to this? I'm pretty convinced that I'm right. and I didn't want to destroy a kind of a youthful family tool for disposing of these kinds of discrepancies in memory. But I do think if I went down to the county and got a plat map from 1965, I would find that there was a house there. And Grandmother Gloria, how will you feel if you are wrong?

Mother Gloria, how will you feel if you are wrong? I would accept it, but I think it's more fun to have this as a place to end a dispute between us about something else that might happen. And we can always file everything under the Grey House illusion. And how will you feel if you are right? I wouldn't want Denise to know that I was right because I wouldn't want to destroy her memories. And Denise, why are you laughing uproariously at the very sweet sentiment that your mom said? I think that's very sweet of her. But are you planning some punishment for her later? No, probably not.

her later. No, probably not. Let me assure you that the court takes elder abuse very seriously. You're not going to make her watch Dancing with the Stars or something, are you? No, are you kidding? No, she'd probably want to watch a Cubs game. Oh boy, sports. Well, with that, I will retire

to my chambers and make my decision. I'll be back soon. Great. Thank you. Thank you. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Denise, I have a question for you. Have you and your mother ever had to consign to this house dimension a dispute over a person rather than a thing? Well, there was a recent discussion about the first time that we met our stepfather. And so that would be a person. And I remembered it being when we were living on that street. And she remembers it being as sometime later.

Here's my concern, denise if we destroy this dimension will that make you a murderer well i guess it depends on who's in the dimension at the time if it's if it's uh hmm you're ready to kill not a murderer i would say no not a murderer you're sharpening your knives right now. Oh, never, never, never. Gloria, it sounds like you have reservations about both ways that this case could turn out. Yeah, I do. I hope I kind of hope it stays in limbo because I don't want to destroy her memories. But I just know I'm right, so it doesn't bother me.

We're both in the same boat. We're both convinced that we're right, but neither one of us wants the other one to be injured or offended or have hurt feelings. Rebecca, how are you feeling? You're hoping to get out from under the weight of this thing. You're hoping to get out from under the weight of this thing. Well, you know, that's the challenge. I think the philosophical implications are interesting. And at the same time, I agree that the Greyhouse universe is a convenient place to dispose of disagreements that might otherwise need to be resolved, given the strong personalities of the people who are utterly convinced that they are right. We'll be back in just a moment with Judge Sean Hodgman's verdict. But first, let's hear about some of the other great shows here at MaximumFun.org. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast,

The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I.

It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-o-p-p-p-d-c-o-o ah we are so close stop podcasting yourself a podcast from maximumfun.org if you need a laugh and you're on the go please rise as judge john hodgman re-enters the courtroom. I don't know if this house exists. I mean, you asked me to rule on it,

but I think really what this is is a ruling on whether or not I'm going to compel someone to go and verify the existence of this house. It is clearly verifiable, and I could verify it, but that would require resources, time, discipline, and work that I simply do not feel like deploying. Because really it's none of my business and I won't care. And in many ways, the idea of the house being proved to exist is much more disappointing than the question of whether or not it does exist. And the memory that you have of it, Denise, is so incredibly creepy and Ringu-like that I really would not want to ruin that for the world because we all do have memories from childhood of those weird, incongruous places.

They're like, was that really there? The tan stucco service building for the huge playground abutting my elementary school with my older friend, Peter Rosenmeier, who was the sort of person who would the on the makeshift pool not makeshift but the the rundown pool table uh that the the the caretakers of the playground had there and i i in like in only the light from the windows because the electricity didn't work so much of that is strange uh that i i almost don't want to even verify that that thing is there because it's so creepy to remember us doing that, especially when you consider that we were surrounded at all times by 75 owls with glowing eyes. Was that true? I don't remember. It's hard. I don't know if I want to know the truth. I also remember vaguely the Creature Double feature that would play on Channel 56 in Boston

in the afternoon. They would usually show Godzilla movies, but every now and then they would show really weird, scary movies from the 70s like Race with the Devil, a lot of Satan worship movies and Demon Dog, The Beast from Hell, like all these weird movies.

And there was one movie that for literally 25 years, I wasn't sure if I had actually seen it, because it was such a strange movie. And there was a woman taking a shower and three little creatures emerging from a cupboard with a straight razor. And then... Oh, my. Yeah. Yeah. No kidding, right? And let me tell you something.

When you finally discover, after 25 years of nightly brain searching and then IMDb searching, you finally discover that it was the TV movie Don't Be Afraid of the Dark, and you see it, it's not as scary. It's not as scary as thinking that maybe that was a product of your own imagination. So in many ways, I do feel that, and obviously the not knowing about the mysterious gray house,

even the name of the thing is ambiguous. gray has uh even the even the name of the thing is ambiguous neither white nor black uh is so functional within uh within your obviously contentious relationship it provides such a suitable function and not only uh does it help you to resolve disputes of both uh of both fact and opinion on politics and religion, which frankly, let's face it, no one wants to talk about, right? Amen. Yeah, that I hesitate to get rid of it, especially since the alternative would be for one of you to say to the other,

let's agree to disagree, at which point you should both shoot each other with crossbows because that's the stupidest thing anyone can ever say. I mean, now you're going to have a chance to put all that stuff away with a science fiction theme. You're putting it in an alternate universe that you acknowledge exists but is not a part of your world. So I think it's beautiful. So my inclination is to maintain this mystery for both of you. Yay! Thank you.

Thank you. That's the best, best decision ever. Yes. And yet I have Rebecca here. The troublemaker. Right. Who has nothing to do with either of, who has nothing to do with this entire dispute

and just lives in Portland listening to podcasts and trying to gin up stuff to talk about on the air. And Rebecca, you seem very nice, but, and I was going to leave you out of this, but then as I was coming back from chambers and you started talking about the philosophical implications, I could not allow that to go unpunished. When you use the words philosophical implications, I'm like, no, we've got to come up with some busy work for her. Oh, my goodness. I think this is going to be a little bit, this is going to be a contentious decision, I can tell. I think for the interest of history and for the interest of punishing you and giving and reminding you that there is more to life

than listening to podcasts i now leave it to you to verify the existence or non-existence and to keep the answer a secret i like that you may call upon the small army of Judge John Hodgman listeners who will crowdsource some of your research. And maybe you can figure out a way to translate the scatter graphs of data that they give to you into some kind of bizarre crocheting project so you can still save some face in Portland. But I want you to go and find out the truth and then put that truth in an envelope and seal it so that at all times, if anything gets too heated between your mom and your grandmom,

you can threaten to open that thing and settle it once and for all. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Gloria, I think you are in the most difficult position here How are you feeling? I feel wonderful, I just had a great time I just feel sorry for Rebecca because it's not her fault

By difficult position, do you mean that she's tied to a rocking chair In a room that has the lights on all the time, all night long? Sorry, I'm sorry, go ahead, Jessie, I apologize I'll go back to Chambers In a room that has the lights on all the time, all night long. Sorry. I'm sorry. Go ahead, Jessie. I apologize. I'll go back to Chambers. I mean only that her granddaughter has elder abused her by means of podcast.

I think she gives as good as she gets. Denise, how are you feeling? I'm doing fine. I think that that's a very good idea to put it on Rebecca to sort it out. And then she can just hold it over both of us. She can say, you be quiet or I will tell you the truth. And we'll both shut up. Rebecca, are you ready to head to the county clerk?

I think this is a brilliant, elegant solution. And I like being the one who knows who is right. Yes, he does. Are you prepared to take the time out of your ironic canning schedule? Yes, absolutely. Well, Rebecca, Denise, Gloria, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. Hodgman podcast. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. That was Rasha Mom from deep in the archives of the Judge John Hodgman Court. It was originally produced by Julia Smith and edited by Mark McConville. Oh, friends. Yeah, old pals. Follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. We're on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets. Hashtag JJHO. Go to the Maximum Fund subreddit to talk about the Gray House at MaximumFund.reddit.com. Submit your cases at MaximumFund.org slash JJHO or by email at Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. Go ahead, say your thing. I don't know what the, I don't know the lyrics of the song or what they mean.

I don't understand. I think it's about old friends. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. MaximumFun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Judge Jen Hodgman podcast.