Judge John Hodgman - Reading is Fun-Defendant

Episode Date: February 7, 2024

How many book clubs are too many book clubs? Emily says she's just trying to keep busy. But her daughter, Hannah, wants her hard-working mom to enjoy her retirement rather than filling it with obligations. Who's right? Who's wrong?We are on TikTok and YouTube! Follow us on both @judgejohnhodgmanpod! Follow us on Instagram @judgejohnhodgman.Thanks to reddit user u/cabridges for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at maximumfun.reddit.com!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bill of Jesse Thorne. This week, reading is fun defendant. Hannah brings the case against her mother, Emily. Emily is part of five different book clubs. Hannah says that's too many book clubs. She worries Emily is wasting her retirement on stressful obligations. But Emily likes to keep herself busy. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference.

Hannah and Emily, the sentence of the court you hear is that you are banished from out of our jurisdiction as being women, not fit for our society. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear them in. Hannah and Emily, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? So help you, God or whatever. I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling,

despite the fact that he was too lazy to write a book club guide for his recent books? Very recent. Very recent books. Relatively recent books. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Stand by for— You know how sometimes there's a book club guide in the back? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stand by for Vacationland, the teacher's edition, with guided discussion questions in the back. Did they say yes? They've agreed to the oath of the court? Yeah, I believe they have. Yes, sir. So may I proceed? You may proceed. We're all excited here because I'm sitting in a small, hot room with Jesse Thorne here at Max Fund headquarters in Los Angeles for the first time in a minimum of four years.

That's true. For those of you listening, you can check out the video. We're wearing our outfits. We're wearing our outfits. We're wearing our outfits. And just a quick tour. We have here the big gavel that I promised to bring from New York. I'm going to have to bring this back to New York. That means I have to check a bag because I don't think they want me carrying this on. It's a very large gavel. It's a very large gavel here. Can you see it, Hannah and Emily? It is very large. One of you is going to get the gav later.

And then we have the nice MaxFun license plate. That's street legal, right? That came from my Volvo. And look at our webby bouncing up and down. This is our 2020 Best Podcast Webby that we won. We won an award. It's true. And it's very exciting to be here.

And joining us from all the way in copenhagen denmark is hannah and emily are you in chicago or florida i'm in chicago it's basically the denmark of uh of illinois yeah today yeah in any case you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment one of your favorites hannah emily cannot either of you guess the piece of culture that i referenced as i entered the courtroom um hannah what do you why don't we start with you what's your guess i'm gonna say it's an outtake from book club to the next chapter i've seen book club to the next chapter which book do they read in book club to john they read the philosophical self-help book the alchemist oh Oh, okay. Got it.

I know that because I interviewed Mary Steenburgen on Bullseye, and I'm still in love with her. Was she in this room too? She was in this room. Whoa. I knew I felt a little Steenburgen-y. Radiant and brilliant. Oh, wow. She went downstairs on the elevator,

then came back upstairs, knocked on the door, and said, I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed that interview. Wow. I'm not going to do that today. Okay. I'm sorry. I mean, I'll tell you, I just don't want to spend that much time in the elevator. So I'm just going to preset it and say I really had a great time.

It's okay. I'd rather spend that time that you would have been complimenting me thinking about the time that Mary Steenburgen complimented me. Fair enough. In any case, all right, Emily, it's your turn to guess. Hannah, your daughter guessed Book Club 2. I have no idea. You have no idea. Sorry.

What is the latest book you read in your book club? You have no idea. Sorry. What is the latest book you read in your book club? Oh, the last one I read was The Silent Patient by Alex Mikulidas. All right, I'll put that in as your guess. The Silent Patient. So noted.

By Alex Mikulidas. And Emily, guess what? You're not correct. All guesses are wrong. The book club guide of that book said, which of these patients is silent? Obnoxious. Obnoxious. Don't tell me how to read. That was actually, so I was thinking about a quote from either book club or book club too,

but I realized that was going to be quite on the nose and Hannah would win the case. So that's actually, I misquoted because obviously the person speaking was a historical figure. John Winthrop, the governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony in the 1600s, was not casting you, Hannah, and you, Emily, out of that community. But

when passing that sentence, I messed up the quote. The first words were not Hannah and Emily. They were Mrs. Hutchinson. Referring specifically to Ann Hutchinson, the famous early feminist and advocate for women in the clergy and as well the antinomian. Jesse, you remember the antinomian controversy of the Massachusetts Bay Colony? If they were antinome, what were they pro?

Goblin? Smurfs. Down with gnomes, up with smurfs. Antinomian controversy was Anne Hutchinson. The Puritans believed that you earn salvation through works. And Anne Hutchinson said nay. Probably said nay. I think that's something they said. Probably at hutchinson said nay probably said nay i think that's something

they said probably at the time they said nay yeah you can you can achieve salvation through faith alone so go ahead and sin a little you can get back you can get up there to heaven and the and john winthrop was like ew you got to get out you got to get out of here. And she was exiled. Do you know where? Rhode Island. Oh, man. Just like our friend Ted Leo. Yeah, exactly. In any case, the reason I quoted anything about Anne Hutchinson is that she is also arguably the creator of the first English language book club. Oh. In that she led, and this is controversial too for the time starting on

route in 1634 to the bay colony she started a group for women to read sermons and discuss them uh which also made john winthrop and the male clergy of the of the bay colony very nervous um because they didn't want to have women tell them what to do particularly not ann hutchinson so off to rhode island she went in any case that brings us to this case, which we must now hear, and it is our pleasure to do so. Anne, I believe you seek justice in this court, correct? That is correct. So your mom is in five book clubs. You don't think she should be. What do you have against books? Why do you hate reading so much? Well, I do hate reading. No, I think the issue for me is that she spends a lot of time complaining about the book clubs and about how much time she spends reading books for the

book club when she could be reading books that she actually wants to read. She complains to you? Yes. And my sister and my dad. Oh, everyone around her. Yeah. I see. And do an imitation of your mom complaining. Oh, I don't know. I just, I have to read this book for Tuesday and then I've got another book to read and then I've got to go to an opera and I've got a meeting of AARP. Oh, stop, stop. I can't bear it anymore. Yeah, this is a nightmare. Oh, how do you put up with it, Anna? It's a nightmare. Yeah.

Emily, is that an accurate imperson How do you put up with it, Anna? It's a nightmare, yeah. Emily, is that an accurate impersonation of you, more or less? It's pretty accurate, although I tend not to characterize those things as complaints. They're just a list of what's going on in my life at the time. Are you really in five book clubs? Well, when I'm in Illinois, that's the maximum because. Because of state law? Yeah. No, because the outdoors are a frozen nightmare. Okay. Well, that's why I'm in Florida when it's cold, usually. Right, right. Where the law is, never read a book. That's a little diss on Florida. I know there are lots of literate people in Florida. Come on. Florida's got its problems. That's a little diss on Florida. I know there are lots of literate people in Florida. Come on. Florida's got its problems.

We all do. One of them is Florida. But the point is, at your peak, you have belonged to five book clubs simultaneously. Break them down for me. What are they? What are the genres? How'd you get into all these book clubs? Okay. First of all, there's the library here in my little suburb of Chicago. They have a fiction book discussion group, and they have a nonfiction book discussion group. And I'm in both of those. But what I do is I get the list. And if I want to read the book, I do. If I don't want to read it, I don't. And sometimes I read the book and don't go to the discussion. I mean, you know, it's just, it's not a big deal commitment, just that I have to turn the book in on time and I'd rather finish it than not.

So, but why five clubs? How did that happen? Well, I'm also in a neighborhood book group, just my neighborhood, that I basically run and it only meets when I say it's going to meet and I pick all the books. And usually I either pick a book that I've already read or a book that I really want to read. So that one's not a big deal. And then my AAUW branch here in Illinois, I'm in a book group with them. So that's four. That's three. I heard three.

Library? Two library. Oh, two library clubs. Right. Fiction, nonfiction. Emily's Book Club. Yeah. Then the AAUW, the American Association of Unaffiliated Wildcats.

Right. What is the AAUW, if I may ask? It's the American Association of University Women. Wonderful. That's pretty dope. And then five, what's the fifth one? My AAUW branch in Florida has a book group. Is it devoted to dinosaur romance novels?

No, it reads pretty much the same books everybody else does. There's a lot of overlap. So these books, these are all general fiction, nonfiction book clubs, not genre specific. No, no genre specific. Now, your favorite has got to be the one you run, right? Because you're in charge. Actually, that's my least favorite because it's a lot of work. Oh, well, you can fire yourself, you know.

Well, I've been told that and I only run it when I'm in Illinois. So that's only four or five months out of the year. What was your most recent pick for your book club? I think it was Lessons in Chemistry. I don't know that book. It's a popular book that people like. The first pick of the Judge John Hodgman Emily book club is Lessons in... No, I changed my mind. It's Vacationland by John Hodgman, Emily Book Club is Lessons in... No, I changed my mind. It's Vacationland by John Hodgman. Yeah.

The new teacher's edition. I have that on my list now because I looked you guys up. Oh, thank you very much. I appreciate that. I love to get a little internet search of my name. I get a little buzz in the back of my neck anytime it happens. Not that often is the answer. So, all right. So, Emily, the least favorite book club is the one that you have. Yeah.

What are the challenges of that book club? What do you have to do to get a session going? send out email to everybody in the group telling them when the meeting is. And then I have to send them out another email to remind them because they can't remember something for as long as two weeks. And I have to find somebody to host the darn thing, which quite often ends up being me. Because even though there are a lot of people in the group, they don't always come. They don't always read the book. And a lot of them refuse to host. Why don't you cut these losers off? Drop them from the email list.

Yeah, cut them. Cut these people from your life. Sorry, new group chat. Well, I think that would probably eliminate the whole thing because we're down to only three people who are willing to host. And since we only meet for four or five months, somebody has to double up. And that usually ends up being me. There are three people who are willing to host, including you. How many people are in that club, though? Who actually do anything? Maybe eight, eight or nine. So that's at least five people who refuse to host but will attend the club? Right.

And then the rest of the people on the list are just garbage people? Well, there's actually, when I send out the emails, I think there's about 22. Because there are all these people who say, yeah, I want to join, but then they never come. All right. So I'm now hearing a complaint in real time. Yeah. And I'm gaining sympathy for your point of view, Hannah, because when I looked at this original brief,

I'm like, what standing does Hannah... Get out of your mom's business, Hannah. Let your mom do whatever she wants. Why do you care? You're over there in Copenhagen. You know, what's a... Put your nose to your own grindstone or your own. Do they do raclette in Copenhagen? No, but they have a nice store where you can buy generic products with sans ser's eye, take the teak armchair out of your own eye.

That's a biblical reference that Anne Hutchinson would really like, I think. Go buy some cool mid-century modernist stereo equipment that I couldn't bring home from a second-hand store astonishingly affordably. Yeah, why don't you eat some delicious open-faced little sandwiches? Oh, those sandwiches are so good. One of the sandwiches is called Hannah. Smell Bowl? Yeah. Don't you have to eat them with a knife and fork?

It's fine. They're so good. They're not hot dogs, I'll tell you what. Not a problem. Yeah, they're open-faced sandwiches. Yeah. There are all kinds of things you could be doing in Copenhagen besides what you're doing in Copenhagen for your life, which I hope is interesting and rewarding. doing in Copenhagen besides what you're doing in Copenhagen for your life, which I hope is interesting and rewarding. Anyway, that was my attitude, Hannah, coming into this small hot room

with my friend Jesse to judge you. But now that I hear your mom complain in real time, I do feel a certain sympathy for your point of view because clearly your mom is having trouble with these book clubs. Why do you think your mom is not enjoying her retirement? She's always been a very hard worker and she's always been very dedicated to making a difference and participating in the community, which is something that I admire very much. But I think sometimes she sort of internalizes that she has to do a thing and may not always evaluate the amount of reward she's getting out of that thing. So in addition to the book clubs, she's also the president of at least one organization at the moment.

Emily, when you hear Hannah say that maybe you feel your obligations a little too keenly to the point that you're not able to evaluate whether you're still getting enjoyment out of them. How do you feel about that? I think there's a lot of truth to that. I think we have to weigh what we do. I mean, some of the things we do because we feel it's making a difference. And I don't want to just be a leech on society. I want to contribute. That's where you and I don't want to just be a leech on society. I want to contribute. That's where you and I differ.

Yeah, that's basically what I aspire to. I'm like, ugh, I'm contributing too much. I want more hammock time. Yeah, as I hurtle towards the grave and think about my own impending retirement, just absolutely disappearing into the dark woods of Maine and producing nothing ever again and giving everyone a god or whatever damn break from me. It seems wonderful. I'm like, wouldn't it be cool if I had a surround sound system for

watching movies? Yeah, wouldn't it be great if I could have gotten that stuff from Denmark? You are retired. What was your career? I had two. For 22 years, I was a computer programmer. But then my husband was transferred out of state. And I started over and got into accounting and went back to school, passed the CPA exam. And I did that for 15 years. And that's why I do volunteer tax returns. I've been doing that for, this is my

10th year. And you enjoy that? You take pleasure in doing other people's tax returns as a volunteer work? If not pleasure, then satisfaction. That's what they call the greatest gift of all, to do someone else's taxes for them. Yeah. I mean, that's quite a beautiful thing to do. You know, sometimes there are some negatives. Some people can be difficult, but most people are lovely. Who's being difficult when you're doing them the favor of helping them with their taxes? You'd be surprised. What are they complaining about? Taxes? That they have to pay them? My first guess is going to be taxes, John. That or death.

Well, it's like if they owe money, it's my fault. I did it to them personally, and I can't have done it correctly. Or, you know, it's just like, give me a break. You know, it is what it is. Anna, are you aware of these deadbeats who are getting your mom to do her taxes, and then they complain about it? Have you heard this story before, Anna? Yes, Your Honor.

And I would like to point out that she also doesn't always get a lunch break. And sometimes she has to stay longer than she thought she would. Yeah, poor Hannah. Hannah was in Gainesville during tax filing season. during tax filing season. And she ended up almost being late for an interview because I got stuck and had to stay like an hour late because it just turned into a mess. You know, they didn't bring everything. We had to make phone calls to get information. It just dragged on and on. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. fun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen?

Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real-life situations, and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world, and you get to hear the sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird, hyperacademic chore. It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear the sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our

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And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs, they're made in, made in. The Rohan duck, made in, made in. Riders of Rohan, duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop? You got it. Made in, made in. Made in has been supplying top chefs and restaurants with high-end cookware for years. They make the stuff that chefs need. Their carbon steel cookware is the best of cast iron,

the best of stainless clad. It gets super hot. It's rugged enough for grills or an open flame. One of the most useful pans you can own. And like we said, good enough for real professional chefs, the best professional chefs. Oh, so I have to go all the way down to the restaurant district in restaurant town? Just buy it online.

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professor at the University of Copenhagen are you a member of the the DAA UW she is the Danish Association of Underwear Workers Underwear Wildcats That and also mom recently conned me into joining the Gainesville branch of the AAUW because she raised me in a certain way. And I also can't say no to things. Oh, did she raise you to be unable to say no? Yes. I mean, that's what you just said. I'm just restating it to clarify and underline it. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm just restating it to clarify and underline it. And this is something that I'm working on, and this is why I would like to suggest to her that she may want to also consider reevaluating some things. Hannah, do you belong to any organizations in your life or have any demanding hobbies? Well, I'm a member of several professional organizations which take up varying amounts of time, including the American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists. Sweet. Here we go. Here we go. I'm also a member of IBS, which is the International Biogeography Society. They need to change their name right away. Yeah, they really do.

It really could be the International Society of Biogeography with no problem. Yeah, there's just why. Don't they know? Some scissors and some paste and the letterhead has changed. Yeah, it's not even that old of an organization, but, you know, we did it. We're sticking to it. And then I'm also, well, I don't have to learn Danish anymore. The government said so. So that's good. What do you mean the government said you don't have to learn Danish? I'm not up to date on all of my Danish news. In order to get permanent

residency in Denmark, you have to learn a certain level of Danish and you need to pass an exam. And you also need to pass a like a mini citizenship exam. So that's been taking up a lot of my time. But so did you pass those tests? Is that why the government is off your back now? Or do they loosen the requirements? Yeah, they've they've they're off my back because I passed the exams. And so now I have all this free time and I'm like, yes, now I need to do the things that I enjoy doing. And I would like to suggest that mom do this. Now that you have experienced free time, you know what it's like and you want to give the gift of it to your mom through a punitive judgment on a podcast. Got

it. I hope your Danish is up to snuff a little bit because I may ask you to say some things in Danish later, Hannah. Oh, no. What was that? Was that a Danish sound or just a... It was a Danish sound. That's Danish for go suck a lemon. Yeah. Take a long walk off a short pier. Either Danish words or a nonverbal expression of exasperation. So, Hannah, now that you have this extra time to do the things you like to do, what's a hobby that you enjoy? Well, I've recently gotten into hula hooping here. Yes!

You know, for kids. Oh, man, this rules! So, wait a minute. Are you telling me that you are literally, Hannah, the hula hooping herpetologist of Copenhagen? Sadly, I'm an ichthyologist. I need to change. Oh, you're not a herp? You're an Copenhagen? Sadly, I'm an ichthyologist. I need to change. Oh, you're not a herp?

You're an ichthyologist? No, I'm an ichthyologist. You never got into the herps? I dabbled in herps, but I've never published in herps, so I can't really call myself a herpetologist, unfortunately. All right, but I'm talking about your passions. Obviously, hula-hooping, also ichthyology, also anti-herpetology. All I'm saying is hula-hooping and ichthyology, also antiherpetology. All I'm saying is hula hooping and ichthyology are natural partners.

Go on. In what context have you seen someone performing hula hoops where there were not at least some snakes and stuff? Well, those are herps. Those are herps? Ichts are fish, right? Mm-hmm. Well, what's a turtle? Herp.

Okay. Right. What about a dolphin? Yep. Icth. Oh, is. Well, what's a turtle? Herp. Okay. Right? What about a dolphin? Yep. Ick. Oh, is it, though? Is it a mammal? Well, so if you call a dolphin an ick, you can also call a turtle or a snake an ick.

You can call a turtle or a snake an ick? Yep. We're all fish. I hear there's no such thing as a fish. That's a famous podcast from England. There we go. Now we're talking about... Wait a minute.

If a turtle, this is worse than not, is a hot dog a sandwich? If a turtle is a, if a snake is a fish, then a hot dog's a sandwich. Explain yourself. Now we're going to get into the evolutionary biology stuff. I'm here for it. Make sure and be clear because no nerds listen to this podcast. It's all right. I've already doxed myself they'll

be able to find me um so if you consider sharks to be fish what else would i consider them to be and you consider fish to be fish and i do and you consider everything that's related to sharks and fish to be fish there i don't because then i would like is richard dreyfus a fish now he's related to sharks and fish to be fish. There I don't. Because then I would like, is Richard Dreyfuss a fish now? He's related to sharks from Jaws. What about Cool Keith's famous half shark, half alligator man?

Half man, half shark. Yeah, exactly. What about King Shark played physically by Steve Agee in the Suicide Squad movie? So you have some more free time. You're learning hula hooping. Any other hobbies that I should know about Hannah?

I homebrew beer. Now, see, couldn't you be a herpetologist? Because then you could be Hannah, the homebrewing, hula hooping herpetologist of Copenhagen. That's a lot of H's. Time for a rebrand. I guess we just got to observe the truth. What kind of beer do you brew? What are you working on there?

And what's your roller derby name? I've resisted so far. I've been tempted. I've mostly been brewing IPAs, but also an occasional Saison because that's a style that's hard to get here. John, IPA is International Phonetic Alphabet. Right. I'm glad you're brewing IPAs and not IBSs. But you chose not to go into roller derby because you realized that your time is not

limitless and you want to focus on the things that you enjoy and maybe not take on too much, which is what you are accusing your mother, Emily, of doing. Emily, I have heard you complaining about the book clubs. I mean, the first thing when I said, what are your five book clubs? Which is your favorite? Which is your least favorite? You said, well, my least favorite is this one because all these people don't carry their own weight in the book club. And then on lots of

the book clubs, I don't even read the book if I don't feel like it. There wasn't a lot of joy being expressed there. Do you feel that you are overwhelmed by book clubs and why can't you shed one or two in order to spend your time a little bit more happily? I think I am going to have to shed the neighborhood one because since I've done it since 2004, maybe I'm done. I'm digging in the dirt. And I just like going for walks in the nature preserves of beautiful Florida and beautiful northwest Illinois. Hannah, your mom is living this wonderful, engaged, vibrant lifestyle. She has many hobbies, which include gardening, university associations, book clubbing, and perhaps her favorite hobby, complaining about her hobbies. What's going wrong? What's the evidence you have that she's suffering more than taking pleasure?

So the first is the complaining, for sure. Another symptom of stress that I've noticed is that sometimes, especially after she has led a meeting, she has a migraine and can't do anything for a day. Yeah. As somebody who also has migraines from stress, I've learned to avoid that stress so I don't get migraines. Emily, do you think that if you wound down a book club or two, that the migraines would be less frequent or no? I really don't get them very much anymore. That's one of the benefits of old age.

But she's correct. When I was president of the branch up here in Illinois, it was like clockwork. If I led a meeting on a Tuesday night, I had a migraine on Wednesday. It was like clockwork. But I'm not president of that group anymore. Hannah, tell me more about the time you went to Gainesville and you were going to go to an interview, but you couldn't because your mom was too busy doing someone else's taxes. Well, it wasn't an interview. I was meeting with a former boss to talk about projects that we still had ongoing. Fish projects?

Butterfly projects. Come on, Hannah. Butterflies are not fish. Give me a break. Okay, you were going to talk to somebody about a butterfly project. What was the project? Starting cyclones on the other side of the world? Give me a break. When I moved to Denmark, it was a little bit sudden, and I continued the projects that I had in Florida from Denmark. But what was the butterfly project itself? What was the project? So it was trying to understand why biodiversity of butterflies is concentrated in some places and not in others. And I was working with a professor at the University of Florida who had a permanent

position there and I was helping them map butterfly distributions. So there you were, you were going to meet with an old boss to talk about butterflies. Yep. But you were foiled by your mom's charitable tax work, right? Yes. What happened? Yeah. So I didn't have my own car and I was visiting my parents in Gainesville for my dad's 70th birthday. Happy birthday. Yeah. So I, mom left the car with dad and I, and I drove to pick her up. The idea was I was going to pick her up, the idea was I was going to pick her up from the library where she was doing her tax work. And I would then drop her off, or she would drop me off at the museum to meet with my boss, and then she would go home. But she couldn't because she was embroiled in a dispute with her own pay-nothing client. Correct. She was arguing with a sovereign citizen

about whether he had to pay federal taxes, according to the Constitution. So you missed your meeting with your old boss. I didn't miss it. I was late. Yeah, but I think, safe to say, the geographical biodiversity mystery of the butterfly is unsolved because your mom was doing someone else's taxes. Clearly.

I think that's fair to say, right? Mm-hmm. And how did that make you feel? It came in waves. So first I was like, well, it's not that big of a deal. So I sat there doing a crossword on my phone. The weather was nice. Got to enjoy some sunshine and just being out and

looking at birds and stuff like that. Then I looked at the time. It was like 20 minutes before we were supposed to be there. I'm like, all right, this is still fine. This is still fine. Now it's not fine. At one point, I went in the library and I was like, at one point I had to I went in the library and I was like uh can I talk to my mom we need to figure this out because I either had to leave her there or leave the car keys under a tire and call an uber or I was trying to figure out how I was going to get to this meeting because I was only going to be in Gainesville for a week and And I had a lot of engagements during that week. Sure. Very frustrating. The library wouldn't let you see your own mom? Yeah.

Are you confident this was a library? Well, you have to understand they don't let people wander in when there's people's personal tax returns lying out. They limit how many people can wander in off the street and start peering over your shoulder. Okay, I understand. Is this part of a pattern, Hannah, of your mom giving time and consideration to strangers and non-Hannah people that you wish that she were giving to you? that you wish that she were giving to you? I would say in the instances where I am actually there in person,

especially if I've flown over an ocean to be there. Sometimes I wonder if the priorities are not the ones that I would choose. When you come visit from Copenhagen, does your mom generally clear her schedule to spend time with you, or does she keep all the book clubs and everything going? She keeps most stuff going. She might skip, I don't know, have you ever skipped band rehearsal because I was in town? Band rehearsal? Band rehearsal?

Yep, I'm in two bands. Why? Oh, yeah. I mean, yes. I love playing my flute. Wow. By the way, the first band is like a neighborhood marching band. The second band is Jethro Tull.

Yeah, right. What are the two bands? Well, there's an organization called New Horizons Band, and they have bands in most of the major cities of the U.S. and Canada and a few other countries. It's for people over 50, primarily who, they were in the band maybe in high school or, you know, and they haven't touched their instrument and they decided they want to do it again. So we get together and we play music. We do a couple of concerts. I'm in a New Horizons band up here in Illinois, and I'm in a New Horizons band down in Gainesville, Florida. And you're a flautist? Yes.

Did you play on Andre 3000's new album? No. Oh, okay. uh no but seriously i the only reason i don't what i do is i find out what hannah's schedule will be and if i know she's tied up i go ahead and do whatever i would have done if she has free time i definitely clear my schedule the but the only obligation that i kind of feel i really have to do is this tax thing and that's only one day a week. You literally don't have to, though. It's all voluntary, right? Yeah, except, you know, that we schedule all these appointments and it's based on how many people are there to do them. And I understand. I understand. This just it seems pretty clear

this is just something that happened one time as opposed to something that happens every time. Well, we could have worked the logistics differently and it wouldn't have been a problem. It was the only time I ever had to stay late like that. The only time. Who are the kinds of people that you're volunteering to do tax help for? We have a pretty broad spectrum and we have some very elderly people who, I mean, they're really poor. They really are poor. But we also have some people that could well afford to pay to have their taxes done. Oh, why don't you just say no to them? We don't do that. AARP has no restrictions on age or income.

AARP has no restrictions on age or income. Well, it's very valuable work. I'm sorry that it messed up the butterfly project, but I understand that's just a thing that happened. Do you feel stressed for time, Emily? Do you feel like you can't do everything you need to or want to do? Sometimes, yeah. I do like to be busy, but I think sometimes I have overdone it. Hannah, your mom is participating in so many activities. Are you interested in being a part of any of those activities? Well, as previously stated, I did join the Gainesville chapter of the American Association of University Women.

What happens at those meetings? Yeah, are you video conferencing in from Copenhagen? Mostly right now, I'm just remotely operating their website. But as a member, what are your obligations and what do you get out of it? So there are no real obligations per se. I think at this point, it's mostly it's nice for me to know what's going on in the community. I like knowing what they're doing. They do some great advocacy work regarding legislation in the state of Florida, which I'm all for. Are they working to keep universities in the state of Florida?

Well, I really appreciate all of the sort of civic-minded work that you both do, including the hula hooping, because you're setting an example. You're setting an example of hooping. That's a perfect description, John. When your mom reads a book in her book club that she doesn't like and complain about it, how does that make you feel, Hannah?

Mostly it just makes me concerned because she spends so much time on this that she could be doing things that she actually enjoys doing. And like, I understand the impulse to finish a book. I also have a very, very hard time finishing a book. very hard time finishing a book. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Is that why, Emily, you got into the book club world? Because it helps you to finish books

or read books that you might not otherwise read? Or what was the original impulse? Well, the original impulse is just finding a wider variety of books because left to my own devices, I might happen upon a book I like and then I just maybe read another book by the same

author. That's a fate worse than death. I mean, what if you did that? What if you just read books you wanted to read on your own? But I don't find the best books by just floundering on my own. These library book groups have been fabulous introducing me to stuff that I never would have read otherwise. What are your top recommendations for our audience? Lessons in chemistry, for sure. I've heard so much about that book today, Emily. There's a book. All right, I'll read it.

There's a book called River of Doubt. It's a nonfiction book. There's a period in Teddy Roosevelt's life after he attempted to return to the presidency and lost. And so he went and explored a tributary of the Amazon. And it's just, it is such a great book. It's disturbing and upsetting, but so interesting. And would I have ever happened on that entirely by his own push-ups. Oh, yeah. Sure. The strenuous life was the name of the boat. Uh-huh. And I bet he saw a bunch of herps and icks down there, too.

Oh, yeah. He did. Anna, what's wrong with your mom's life? Come on. This is great. What do you care? Perfect. I would like to submit that mom is capable of obtaining direction to find books that she might enjoy because my sister, her daughter, is a librarian and manages several book clubs.

Right. And is she also an amateur Zeppelinist and piccolo player in a prog rock band? She mostly does distance swimming and yoga. Yeah, she's swimming to the moon and back. Yeah, but I don't know, Hannah, that you've proved harm in this case. Aside from the migraines. Well, but your mom says it doesn't happen anymore. Is she lying? She said it happens less.

Yeah. It happens less. So it's still happening, right, Emily? Yeah. Is it a price you're willing to pay for all these different book clubs and other the hassles of civic engagement? Yes. Us migraineurs are born into a life of suffering.

And if we want to do anything, we just kind of got to eat it. Yeah, I could get a migraine just by looking at the legislation pending in the Florida legislature right now. I was just in Tallahassee advocating for four bills and against one. And I couldn't even get an appointment with the legislator. I had to meet with their aides, even though I'd been emailing for over a month. And they'd never heard of these bills because they were just five out of six out of 1700. You know, Jesse Thorne,

you're like a real lazy jerk right now. I know. I have never lobbied for a piece of legislation in my life. Well, neither have I. I don't belong. Okay, but I wasn't planning to. Let me put it that way, ever. I mean, other than doing some, I don't know,

like phone banking, but I've never gone to the state capitol. I used to work at the mayor's office in San Francisco, but I just operated the auto pen on proclamations. And I mostly did that to make novelty proclamations for my friends. What better use is there for government than that? Emily, does any of Hannah's critique resonate with you that you are perhaps overcommitted or that your enjoyment of these hobbies and pastimes and civic obligations sometimes is overwhelmed by the responsibility and the annoyance?

Oh, yeah. It can be stressful. And I had a whole bunch of stuff all come at the same time. Hannah, you know your mom better than I do. If I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me order that she cut out of her life? I would suggest that you rule she drop two book clubs. And I am willing to make a concession

that if she still wants to use book clubs as a mode of discovery and discussion and social connection, that we can start a family book club with her and me and my sister. You want to do a family book club with your two daughters, Emily? I think it would be fabulous. Oh, okay. Some people love their children, John. Emily, Hannah requests that you drop two book clubs and maybe add

a family book club. And Hannah, you don't want me to cut out anything else? One of the bands? No flouting on Sundays? I think the bands are something that she actually does enjoy doing, and she doesn't complain about them. Right. So she can still do those.

I do not want you to rule that she does not complain, because I think it's nice that she feels that she can express herself. herself. Emily, as you talk about a lot of your hobbies, including the book clubs, you're vice president of the UAAW, the UAAW, no, whatever. A-N-W, hamburgers and whoop beer. You're vice president of the AAUW. You lead discussions at the library for your book clubs over there is your home neighborhood book club where only three people you being one of them is willing to host you're obviously an important organizer of the entire affair why is it important to you to be the boss of these things oh i don't want to be the boss. And yet you are. So how does this happen? I think because by and large, people don't want to have to run stuff. They would rather

be a participant than a leader. Some are born book club leaders. Some achieve book club leaders. Some have it thrust upon them. Just imagine how many book clubs Teddy Roosevelt was president of. on them. Just imagine how many book clubs Teddy Roosevelt was president of. Just imagine how many book clubs, how many books Teddy Roosevelt would pile on his chest to strengthen his lungs as he slept. Emily, it says here that if I were

to rule in your favor, that you'd like me to rule that Hannah and her sister, quote, tone down the crap giving. End quote. Do your daughters give you crap? Yeah. Hannah is usually a little more gentle.

Franny's a little bit more pointed. And the thing is that they call it complaining. I guess I don't really see it as complaining. It's like, this is what's going on in my life. I'm not really shading it one way or the other. I'm just saying, oh, I was up till two o'clock in the morning because I needed to finish a book in time for the discussion this morning. And they'll say, oh, that's complaining. And I'm like, no, I was having a ball. I wouldn't have stayed up till two o'clock in the morning to finish the book if I didn't want to finish the book.

Right. So why do you take it as complaining, Hannah, if your mom is asserting that she's having a ball? It doesn't always sound that way. You're saying that she's not a reliable narrator of her own life? It's one of these things where maybe in the moment it feels like it sounds more negative than in retrospect, because it's very convenient to forget exactly how upset you are or how stressed out you are when you're doing something. Yeah, but it's her life. She can decide how to spend her own life.

Right. Right. Let me ask you this. Is this causing you harm in the sense that we once had a couple on the podcast or we discussed their case where one spouse loved to read and read aloud real estate listings in the neighborhood just because they were fascinated with all the houses in the neighborhood. And the other spouse, it drove them a little bananas and made them anxious because they felt like spouse A was insisting that they move soon or buy a new house. Wait, was this case between me and my wife? It might have been, actually. I mean, I've heard it a couple of times, to be honest.

And it's just like some people's fun is actually another person's anxiety. And I'm wondering if, you know, it might be a situation where your mom's like, hey, I stayed up till 2 a.m. reading. What was the chemistry book that I'm supposed to read again, Emily? Lessons in chemistry. Lessons in chemistry last night. I could barely wake up this morning because I was reading all night. And she's saying, like, isn't this fun? And you're feeling like, is this a problem that I need to solve for you, mom? Is that what's going on here? It's possible that might also be part of it. Yes. What form of crap does your sister Franny give your mom?

If you're the delicate one, Hannah, I think she, instead of saying, maybe you need to reevaluate the value you're getting out of some of the things that people don't appreciate you doing. Franny would say, why are you still doing that?

Right. Blunt. Stop doing Right. Blunt. Stop doing it. Blunt. All right. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I'm going to go in my chambers and think it over. I'll be back in a moment with my verdict.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Hannah, how are you feeling about your chances in the case? I'm not feeling terribly good because I know there is settled law in this court that kids need to not meddle with what their parents want to do. And I may not have made a strong enough point for why all of these participating in all of these things is harmful. On the other hand, she's in too many book clubs. If your sister Franny were here right now, what would she say to you? Quit being so nice.

Classic librarian move. Emily, how are you feeling about your chances? I'm kind of hoping that I lose because I like Hannah's idea of a family book group. It would give me a chance to spend some time with my kids. And if Franny picks the book, it's going to be great. What if you pick the books? Still great, but maybe not as great. You know what I bet you would pick? Just guessing here. What?

Vacation Land by John Hodgman. There you go. I think as an homage to what we're doing today, that should be our first book. Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a moment. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year.

Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. on the go call s-t-o-p-p-p-a-d-i it'll never fit no it will let me try if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p-p-p-d-c-o-o oh we are so close stop podcasting yourself a podcast from maximumfun.org if you need a laugh then you're on the go.

It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Judge Hodgman, you're headed out on the water with our friend Jonathan Coulton. I am. It's been five years at least since I was on the Jonathan Coulton cruise. I'm so excited to be returning. Does your Scrabble offer still stand? It is, yes. If you haven't yet booked, go to joecocruise.com and use code HODGMAN24, the number is two four and my name,

HODGMAN24 at checkout, and I will be alerted that you did this. And if you wish, as a thank you, I will play Scrabble with you in the crow's nest one evening or at the time of your convenience on the Jonathan Colton cruise. And if you don't want to play Scrabble with me and just want to hang out on the cruise, that's fine. I'll be around to say hello. Obviously lots and lots of entertainment. I might be sneaking on stage for a thing or two, but it's just a wonderful vibe and I hope that you will join us. Go to jococruise.com and check out with the code Hodgman24. I want to say something, John. When we were on tour, which we were recently. We were.

Did a lot of meet and greets. Meets and greets. Love to meet and greet. A lot of folks told me that they started listening to Judge John Hodgman because they heard me talk about it on Jordan Jesse Go. Oh, that's a wonderful podcast. There were also some people who told me they started listening to Jordan Jesse Go because they heard me on Judge John Hodgman. So if you are listening now, you would like to hear just a straight comedy podcast. Straight up comedy. No content, just comedy.

Pure nonsense. Lots of profanity. Swear words. A lot of positive vibes. Vibes. Jordan Jesse Go, go give it a listen. And if you're already a listener, you know, review it in your apple podcasts and so forth but go try jordan jesse go i think you might like it's really a lot of fun okay we'll

be back in just a second on the judge john hodgman podcast please rise as judge john hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict well first of all emily Hannah, Jesse, I feel like a real lazy dope. Like, I mean, come on. I've never read lessons in chemistry. I've never helped an impoverished person do their taxes. I've never studied an ick or a herp. I've never completed one hoop of a hula hoop, even. I certainly don't. I mean, I was a clarinetist for a time but i'm not playing in two bands i'm not helping get legislation passed i mean i just

applaud both of you and i guess franny too i mean i don't know franny's just swimming like that's well and librarian library oh right i'm not a librarian salt librarians we're out of a job our whole our whole audience base yeah you get a pass if you're a librarian you can go and do some some sport of personal perfection like swimming or whatever but like I just really applaud both of you for living such all an

interesting lives and I really appreciate the amount of thought you, Emily, put into having hobbies and pastimes in your retirement that give back to your community in some form or another. I think that's really, really valuable and something that I think not a lot of people necessarily think about when they retire. They think about, well, now it's me time. But in fact, there's so much help and wisdom that you can offer to people who are coming up. I mean, this is what we're supposed to be doing as I get older. I'm supposed to be getting out of the way and making room for younger people who can benefit to some degree. So that's why I'm telling everyone here listening to the Judge John Hodgman podcast, I'm giving you all $100,000. Check your Venmo right now. It should be coming through at this moment. Oh, I only wish I could. I mean, one of the greatest gifts in life, if it's possible,

is to be generous, whether with stuff or with your time. And I really value the amount of time that you give to other people. But I do have concern about how you seem to devalue the time that you are giving yourself. Like, you are doing things that you enjoy right like flouting as we were wrapping up our conversation before i went into my chambers i did feel like you were talking about those things that you simply enjoy as being somehow less worthy than the things you do for other people and to a degree that, that's true. Do you know what I mean? Like playing a flute in

a band is just something that gives you pleasure, which you deserve, by the way. But it is distinctively different than helping a poor person do their taxes, which is a real gift. You can balance these things, but they're equally worthy of your time. Where I think your formula has broken down to a degree is that maybe you equate giving of your time as necessarily automatically being a virtue, when in fact, when it means organizing a book club for, you know, 12 people, six of whom won't even host the book club in their own home, that's a waste of your time. I'm sorry to be mean to the list of friends that Hannah is going to provide me with, the so-called book club friends.

But it's coming through the internet now, I'm sure. Right, Hannah? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I want you to name names, and I want you to share those names with your mom. Because this is an area where I do feel like Hannah was able and you were able to circle for yourself there's a measure of frustration with the people who aren't carrying their weight in the book club and doing it for

them is not necessarily doing it for society you know what I mean you're just you're just carrying the the burden of mental labor for some people who can't be bothered to do it themselves. And that's no fun. That's no fun. It's hard to know what's fun, right? There's stuff that we feel we should be doing. There's stuff that we feel we've always gotten enjoyment from, so we're going to continue it. But there's lots of times when the fun that we're having isn't any fun at all. Or we've moved into a place of our lives where it's like, yeah, you know what? It's not fun for me to go out to a bar every night at 2 a.m. It's more fun for me to sit at home and watch All Creatures Great and Small and fall asleep at 9.15. You know, our lives go through changes. And sometimes we think about the things that we should do a little bit more than the things we want to do. And it's really important, I think, no matter what age you are,

is to sit with your decisions and tune in to what's really making you happy. At any given moment, you can do any number of things. And sometimes you're doing things that you think make you happy, but they don't really. Maybe it's time to move on from those things. Or maybe there's a list of people in the neighborhood that it's now time to cut out of your life completely. Or at least think about whether it's worthwhile to continue carrying the bucket for them. When it may be time for you to read Vacationland by John Hodgman and just have a good time it's very readable it's a fun book and it is absolutely true that you know you're not causing anyone harm other than that one time when hannah missed her butterfly project appointment which frankly probably has changed the fate of the entire geoclimate because they didn't get the butterflies right.

But beyond that was it seems to be an isolated incident. So I'm loathe to interfere with the things that make you happy, but I am not loathe to order you to really, really think about which of these things make you happy and which of them you can let go without consideration as to their social import. Because it does sound to me that you're a little overextended. The fact that you said you kind of wished that I would order a family book group to me gives me leave to find in Hannah's favor in this limited circumstance. And say it is time for you to drop two book groups out of your current portfolio of

five i highly recommend that you drop the neighborhood book group with all the dead beats in it just let that go by the wayside and let them host it for a while i will order you to take up another book group however which is the family book group that Hannah suggested. And whether or not it is Hannah or Franny picking the books and leading the discussion, you are not allowed to be in charge of it. You have enough executive duties in your other areas of your life that this is going to be just pure passenger book grouping.

You're going to get the treatment that you've afforded all of your book group deadbeats who won't host a thing. Now you're going to get to be one of them. You're just going to get to coast through this thing. And the whole point of this book group, Hannah, will be to read books like Vacationland that are readable, easy, no big deal, not trying to make yourself better, just trying to enjoy some time reading and spending time with friends. trying to make yourself better, just trying to enjoy some time reading and spending time with friends. And I hope that that will help you get your schedule organized, Emily, in such a way that you're not staying up until two o'clock in the morning unless you really want to. But I will say that if you are going to talk about your many obligations and so forth, you have to think about reframing it when talking to Hannah and Franny and saying, I stayed up till 2 a.m. last night and it was

awesome. Because complaining about stuff, whether or not you really intended to, does tend to have a corrosive impact on the people around you. Okay, so that's my ruling. Cut out two book clubs, one family book club, starting with Vacationland. Second book will be Medallion Status. Third book will be Sky Mall. Happy crap you get from a plane by Casper Hauser. And just keep it going from there. Light reading for good times. This is the sound of a gavel. We started this book club to stimulate our minds.

From what I hear, this book is quite stimulating. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Hannah, how are you feeling about this ruling? I am very satisfied. And I look forward to reading Vacationland. What about SkyMall, happy crap you can buy from a plane? Also that, that's been on my list for a while.

Everybody needs to have a quick discussion of bananaganizers versus bantanaganizers. Emily, how are you feeling? I'm feeling great. And I will take your suggestion that perhaps how I frame what's going on in my life a little more with a little more positive spin. So it's not doesn't sound so much like I'm complaining. Well, Emily, Hannah, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. This was fun. Thank you. Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. We'll have swift justice in just a second.

First, our thanks to Redditor C.A. Bridges. Thank you. C.A. Bridges for naming this week's episode. Reading is fun defendant. Fun defendant. Reading is fundamental. Yeah. Fun defendant.

But I also, I have to give credit to someone else on the Reddit, Dr. Colossus of Rhodes, for suggesting, as the title, another case is on the books. I liked it. Anyway, thanks, Dr. Colossus of Rhodes. Dr. Colossus of Rhodes, also a classic Reddit username and a longtime MaxFun Reddit poster. We have fun over there on that Maximum Fun Reddit. Join the conversation on the Maximum Fun subreddit. That's MaximumFun.reddit.com. That's where we ask for those title suggestions. Evidence and photos from the show are posted on our Instagram account at Instagram.com

slash Judge John Hodgman. Make sure to follow us there. Video from this episode is available on the Judge John Hodgman YouTube page. Search for Judge John Hodgman on YouTube and you will find it or just follow the link in the episode description or at MaximumFun.org. Thank you this week to CMDM on Apple Podcasts for giving Judge John Hodgman a five-star rating. What said, I love Petty, so obviously I love this podcast. It gets pretty Petty.

It's a pretty fair characterization of our disputes. And we often talk about race car driver Richard Petty. Yeah. That's what that is, right? That's absolutely who Richard Petty is. Yeah, right. If you're listening to us on Apple Podcasts, do rate and review us there. That helps new listeners find the program. Judge John Hodgman

was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. This episode engineered by Jason Luke at DC Bell in Copenhagen, Denmark, and by Julian Haidaw in Downers Grove, Illinois. Our thanks this week to Valerie Moffitt, who helped us set up our video equipment. Thank you, Val. And to Daniel Speer, who edited our video. The podcast is edited by A.J. McKeon. Jennifer Marmer is our producer. Now, Swift Justice. Team Judge John Hodgman, best in the biz. Exactly. Thank you for your support, audience, for making it possible.

Indeed. Now, Swift Justice, where we answer small disputes with quick judgment. Jennifer asks us on the Judge John Hodgman Facebook page. That's facebook.com slash Judge John Hodgman. Is it Jennifer Marmer? I don't think it's Jennifer Marmer. I think it's a different Jennifer. My husband thinks

it's gross when I butter my peanut butter and jelly sandwich. I call it double butter delight. I'll say this. It's not an argument against her husband. Just a great name for the sandwich. Butter and jam. Even though I don't like sweet stuff, butter and jam, that's a very special taste. Butter and jelly is really good. John, the policeman hates it when I steal jewelry. I call it sparkle time.

Yeah. I have to say, everyone likes what they like. Double butter is the name of the sandwich. A double butter delight. A double butter delight is absolutely a double butter delight for jennifer it is absolutely a double butter disgust for me to think about so i mean i jennifer's partner has the right to find it disgusting but they can't say anything about it because it's their god or whatever damn double-buddy delight.

I say gross, though. It's gross. Yeah. We're always looking for disputes. There was a lot of club talk in this week's episode. Yeah, people belong to a lot of clubs, and I think clubs, organizations, societies, secret societies, they can be fertile grounds for disputes. I want to hear some Kiwanis beef.

Yeah. If you're in the Odd Fellows and someone's taking your favorite chair in the lodge room, you can let us know. If you don't think that person really is going to be a farmer in the future. Exactly. 4H, maybe someone wants 5H. Yeah. In any case, give us your club disputes. Go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO.

Book clubs, LARPing clubs. Go ahead and go into the past. Like if you got into, if you were in the drama society at Brookline High School and you got into a beef with somebody, go ahead, bring it up. I'll probably remember. Send them all into MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. That's where we get them. That's where we look for them. That's where we need them.

And let's be frank, John. Okay. Local improv teams. Oh, right. We want to hear all your disputes. Maximumfun.org slash JJHO, whether club related or otherwise. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximum Fun.

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