Judge John Hodgman - Reckless Endungeonment

Episode Date: August 14, 2013

Ryan and Dan are role-playing friends with a disagreement - Ryan says Dan's risky gameplay is making it less fun for everyone.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm your guest bailiff, Monty Belmonte, morning host at 93.9 The River, WRSI in Northampton. This week, reckless endungeonment. Ryan and Dan are longtime friends who disagree on gameplay within their role-playing group. Dan wants to shake up a stagnant game by taking more risks with his character. Ryan says Dan's approach is messing up the game's dynamic and making it less fun for everyone. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom.

And so Mordam was defeated, and by order of the Thirteen Realms, Skip became steward of all their former lands, and in turn, King Skip gave the lands to all the realms of Darkon to explore and settle as they may. News was not as good for the king's warmaster, who was forced to give up his mask due to a recently developed allergy to latex, but this too had a happy outcome, as it allowed someone to finally see his face. As for King Skip's brother, he traveled far and wide, not knowing if he would ever return to Darkon, but pleased to learn such news as could be sent to him by electronic mail, and to hear tales of those peaceful lands beyond the sea

and the wise and noble ruler who watched over them all. That is Judge John Hodgman. Swear them in, Guest Bailiff Monty Belmonte. Dan and Ryan, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Valar Morghulis? We do. I do. I believe the correct response is Valar Dohaeris.

Valar Dohaeris. Valar Dohaeris. Do you swear to abide by Judge John hodgman's ruling despite the fact that it may result in taking an oath of enmity casting your friendship into the crack of doom i do yes thank you judge john hodgman you may proceed okay okay so say we all so say we all you nerds you may be see you may you may sit down now on your on your iron thrones ryan and dan for an immediate summary judgment in your favor can either of you name the piece of culture that i referenced as i entered this imaginary courtroom ryan i cannot you cannot of course you cannot dan is it the damsels of

dork no what what did you just say the damsels of darkron no? No. What? What did you just say? The damsels of Darkon. No. What is that? Is that even a thing? Sure. What is it? Well, it's a couple of words that I strung together in the hopes that I would say. Nerds.

Ouch. You are wrong. You could not possibly have named this thing. Because it is the last lines of my unproduced screenplay. Ouch. Based on the documentary Darkon. Which is a documentary about a bunch of LARPers. Live action role playing gamers.

In the Baltimore area. I've actually role-playing gamers in the Baltimore area, and which I was hired to adapt into a fiction story form and enjoyed very much doing, but unfortunately did not go forward. And I may have violated all kinds of agreements now by reading you aloud those lines, but they are now lost. Of course, there shall be no record of this internet internet uh court uh meeting because uh this is the internet and there are no records kept to the internet right no and also this is a secret tribunal in the in the in the in the dark

hold uh it shall be a trial by combat ryan and, you have a disagreement. We do. Ryan, state the disagreement from your point of view. Well, my role-playing group, our role-playing group, have been playing games together for over 13 years. But recently, and that's led us to reach a certain... Excuse me for a moment. To quote the great Tom Sharpling, Oh, boy. All right, 13 years, go on.

Like I said, that has let us reach a certain maturity in our role playing. It leads to deeper characters and better storytelling. However, recently, just recently, Dan has begun insisting that we take our characters too seriously. So he also wants for all of us to be prepared to die more often. And because of that, he's begun playing recklessly. And it's just not the style of game that we're currently playing. And I have no problem with reckless violence and a disregard for characters. But I just want us all to go into the game knowing that that's what kind of game this is going to be. Dan's bringing it in where it doesn't belong. Dan, you understand that making a game that is more realistic and more mature

does not mean dying more often. I understand. Because in the most realistic LARP, which is life, there is but one death. So explain to me what your more reckless style of play entails. First of all, what game are we talking about here? We're talking about D&D, A D&D, Call of Cthulhu, Secret Agent. No, Top Secret. We are talking about the Dresden Files RPG.

Dresden Files, and what is that? The Dresden Files is a universe created by author Jim Butcher. That's the Harry Dresden? Yes, the Harry Dresden series. And Harry Dresden is a magical investigator of some kind? Yeah, he's an operating wizard in Chicago. An operating wizard? You mean he's not retired yes he's in the he's in the phone book he's in oh he's in the all right he's

oh this is this is an alternate universe in which there are phone books yeah yes okay so uh and the and these and i'll allow you to buzz market your favorite thing because these are these are these should i be reading these novels? Are these great? Yeah, they're really good. Or is your RPG better? Do the fans really understand it better and have now actually, they've actually created a deeper world than even the original author could have possibly made? The author is still actually in the progress of writing these books. Yeah, but that doesn't mean that you fans don't know better than him about what he made. At this point, I'm going to give more credit to the author, Jim Butcher.

I think he knows more than I do. You are a rare fan indeed. Why, thank you. Thank you, sir. Okay, so what is the more reckless style of play that goes on in Magical Chicago? Well, first of all, I'm not trying to encourage other players to do this. I feel that they should be able to play the characters that they wish. However, it's come to the point where we can count on our characters never really being in any actual danger.

Yeah, of course. It's a role-playing game. Right. And as Ryan said, he gets attached which is great um ryan how how old how long have you been playing the longest like i i'm not sure what the terminology would be you say that you played the same character for a longer period of time what's the oldest character not in not in-game age do you know what i mean but yeah yeah oh i would say that my longest running character was probably over a three-year stint maybe a four-year okay meeting every week it's

um no uh we we started out in our early days we started out doing every week because what part of minnesota are you from minnesota you You knew I was from Minnesota? Oh, no. I'm originally from Minnesota. Oh, no. Well, you bet. Oh, yeah, you betcha. Where are you from? I'm originally from southern Minnesota, but now I moved to Wisconsin, and I've met Dan here, and we've become friends. For 13 years, you would meet how often?

We would start out meeting weekly. But then as we got busier through school, it changed to biweekly. And that stayed true for probably about six or seven years. And then in the more recent years, we started switching to monthly. And now we do what we call is playing pickup games. So then whenever we can get a chance to play, we get together, but that's, that's remained consistently monthly, I would say. Right. And so, and where, and, and you're, and what are your ages?

I'm 33, two. You're 32. I'm 33. I'm 32. Okay. And so this started in college or whatnot? Yeah. Well, well, pretty much. I have two, two of, two of these, um, uh, group members I've been playing with since eighth grade and, well, pretty much. I have two of these group members I've been playing with since 8th grade and 11th grade. But Dan and I actually, Dan came into our group in 1999, so our first year in college. Right, so Dan is the Dresden come lately to this group, basically. Well, kind of, yeah. I mean, we taught Dan how to play dnd 3.5 and that was his first

role-playing experience you never forget the person who teaches you dnd 3.5 so true it is it's a bond it is and yeah and we've been growing together ever since and now he's coming in and saying you know what guys it's time we put aside childish things and just play this crazy game a little crazier. Yeah, that's exactly it. So he says it's causing real problems. What's a real problem that this is causing? Well, the biggest problem, the number one problem I have is that like most of the group are interested in playing deep characters.

And you can tell this by the skills that they choose. They choose things like sneak or investigate or lore or persuasion, things that involve banter, things that involve storytelling. Dan is more likely recently to choose straight up combat or super speed or initiative. And what's been happening with this latest character is that we'll all be staking out a scene or something and we'll see a potential bad guy. And instead of thinking about it and planning and find out if this character is actually an ally or a bad guy, Dan has been prone to rush into the situation, throw the first punch and cause us all instantly to roll off initiatives to be in combat. And so it takes away a lot of our decision-making as players.

So Dan's playing this nerd game like a jock. Exactly, yes. Like a jock with ADHD. Right. Is there any other kind? I don't know. No, I love jocks. I love all sports.

Everyone knows this. Yeah. Dan, is that an accurate assessment of your of your playing style in the new style the advanced dan and dungeon style for this current game this is actually a fairly accurate description however the interpretation of it could not be further from the truth well is there anyone else on the line who could interpret it better perhaps you dan yes i think i am more well than me i roll for interpretation you may you may interpret excellent thank you very much uh now

as ryan said we have adapted a certain way of play however that means we have four or five characters who essentially share the same skill set and because of that you have somebody say well i roll for lore do i know it well then the next person hang on a second this is the second time this has come up lore as a skill can you explain this to me and other normals uh lore is your character's knowledge in uh the arcane backstory of whatever universe you're in okay but this is all set in magical chicago or what uh we've played in actually magical minneapolis yeah very close i like it the magical twin cities yeah well they are already but so who so like all right so you you see you see you're wandering around and you see uh you're wandering around, and you're wandering around magical Minneapolis,

and you see, like, a floating Garrison Keillor with tentacles over there. And let me understand. Just walk me through the gameplay here. So I'm your Dresden Files RPG DM or whatever. You see a floating Garrison Keillor with tentacles instead of arms. What do you do? Now, let's say you, Ryan,

you decide to do lore. How does this play out? Well, the character I'm currently playing is a changeling, so he's half fairy. He's got fey blood. He's a sorcerer. So what he would want to do is asking you to brag about your character. What is rolling? What does it look

acted out for me so that I understand role play, if you will, what a, what a, what a lore maneuver would be in this case. Is there a woebegone spell? I would roll for Lord to find out if he has the Wobegon spell. All right. What are you rolling? How many dice? I would roll, let's see, four six-sided dice in this game. Four hex die? Right. Yeah, 46, actually. I'd roll that, and then I would tell the-

Wait a minute. What's a hex die if not a six-sided die? Oh, I thought you said four X die, as in four times die. No, no. Excuse me. 46. All me. 46. All right. 46.

And what do you got to get to make your lore roll? Well, I think... Okay, so... This guy's got fairy blood. It can't be too much. No, it's not. I think he's got a plus five. Yeah, he's got a plus five in lore.

So I roll my dice and I get a positive note. Do you have them now? Do you have the dice now? We don't. How dare you? They're in the role-playing room. Look, I come with sound effects. I'm here with guest bailiff Monty Belmonte

at an actual radio studio. I got all kinds of sound effects. You don't have your dice? Go get your dice. Go home and get your dice. And your shine box. Dan's? Go get your dice. Go home and get your dice. And your shine box. Dan's going to get the dice. So anyway, I would roll for lore to find out more about this.

I don't want Dan to get the dice. Get off. You want me? Are you in the same? Yeah, go get. Are you in the same place? Are you in your hovel? Yeah, we're in the same place.

We're in the same place. Now, Dan, I have dice now. Okay. Oh, you already did it. Oh, Dan. The power scenario here is sick. All right. I'm rolling. same place in the same place now dan i have dice now okay oh he's already did it oh damn power the power scenario here is sick all right i'm rolling some of these dice dan jumps boy oh boy okay i got oh i rolled really poorly i got a negative one you got a negative one did you make your lore roll or not i got a negative one but i get to

add my lore roll so my lore score so i actually got a four we're gonna add your lore score i get to add my lore score lower score in seven years ago so it's lower score more so all right all right yeah well that's the outcome so now I have a four. So that should give me enough lore to spark a memory of some book I've read or some occult passage or whatever. Something I found that will give me a clue to this creature's powers. That's what I would do as a lore character. All right. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Now wait a minute.

And I find out if he's good or evil, whether we can talk to him, whether he even speaks our language. There's a lot I can learn. He speaks your language. He speaks Minnesotan oofta so now all right so you made your lore score now do you have to make up the lore or does the dm okay so i say all right here's the deal uh is garrison kill is garrison killer host of the radio show turns out he's secretly had tentacles for arms that's why he's only ever done the radio show and only appeared from the neck up in the movie of prayer room companion and uh he lives he lives in saint paul but every now and then he comes to minneapolis to feast on fresh souls sure okay now dan yes your approach is a little different how do you how do you deal

with floating garrison killer with tentacles for arms well first of all the character uh that i'm playing currently named simon would have to make a snap decision as to whether or not this character the floating tentacly garrison killer was was an evil being or benevolent or what? No one has. You know what? No one has been able to decide whether or not Garrison Keillor is an evil being or benevolent. But I know who can find out. There's a guy noir.

There's a lot of debate. OK, so wait a minute. So I thought you were going to be reckless. I think you're just going to attack Garrison Keillor. No, no, no no not necessarily now if he does anything that even hints at being an evil or a bad character if he trips an old lady in the street if he sings along with everybody on the show if that might be enough if he flirts with every female musician on the show or or if my character looks at him and says okay we ran we ran into a tentacled guy noir earlier and he tried to kill us. This is obviously something in the same vein. Then absolutely,

I would jump into action. And I feel that this is a good way to advance the story as opposed to letting the same thing play out with five people rolling for lore over and over until they uncover some hidden truth. So you're saying lore is a bore? for lore over and over until they uncover some hidden truth. So you're saying lore is a bore? Lore is a bore. It can be a bore. It's not always.

It's a great storytelling tool. Right. But it shouldn't be something that we can just say, oh, well, all five of us obviously should have this. Sometimes you just got to defecate or get off the Iron Throne. That is a wonderful way to put it, yes. And you guys got to attack Garrison Keillor. Well, see, the thing is, you're not even that reckless. Because even, you're like, well, before I attack,

I will have to find out what his intentions are. I thought you were just going to go in there and start slashing. I can't do that. Garrison Keillor with tentacles. How much else do you need as a provocation? I've seen some very weird things. So it might be a good being that's just been cursed somehow. You know, you can't.

And you said your character was currently named Simon? Yes. Does he ever have any other names? No. All right. You can just call him Simon then. Does he have any fairy blood or what's his deal? He's actually completely unsure.

He has some powers above and beyond a normal human, but does not know where they came from. And this is part of what he's trying to find out. A point of order, Judge? All right. I'll allow it. allow it what dan hasn't told you about this character is that he's actually a uh a bicycle messenger with super speed who essentially beats up people for a living he's a thug which i have no problem yeah because he's not getting many jobs as a bicycle messenger that's for sure not in minneapolis no is this the true story of puck from the real world ah

so it's from about that time period. I think he just got arrested for something similar to this. I'm sorry. I'm sorry at all. First of all, I apologize to Garrison Keillor, who is truly one of my heroes and influences. Second of all, I apologize to the three remaining bicycle messengers in the world for insulting their craft. And I'll apologize to Puck from the real world. Yes.

And that's the apology moment here on the judge john hodgman podcast now all right so so what he's not telling me is that he's a bicycle messenger from the 90s who's looking at people in the chicago phone book all the time what does that have to do with anything well he's got super what does that have to do with the price of tea and asteros? So no matter what, because of his super speed, his character gets to act first, which means Dan as a player gets to act first. So regardless of what the group wants or might perceive, Dan gets to decide what we do. And it's inevitably going to be punch Garrison Keillor in the tentacle face. No, he said he was going to find out if he was going to watch him see if Garrison Keillor tripped a lady or whatever.

But he gets to make this decision by himself and in a split second. Yeah, but you guys are all over there lowering it up. We don't get to lower on our, we have to wait for our initiatives in order to lower. Right. Dan gets the first initiative and he can choose to run in much faster than we can and be in combat for almost you know like two rounds before we even get to touch the dice right how and at that point

at that point a lore roll would be stupid right right you don't want to waste time on a lore roll if you're trying to black the eye of garrison keeler you don't care about the lore you care about lake will be gone you're trying to kick Garrison Keillor in the teeth. You don't care about WLT radio. Right, right. All right. Plus, if Dan rushes into battle. I'm going to say this one more time because I want this quoted in the AV club.

If your goal is to kick Garrison Keillor in the teeth, you don't care about the ancient origins of powder milk biscuits. Wow. All right. Got that, AV Club? All right. So, right. And then what happens is you guys don't get to get the lore.

You don't get to have your fun. I'm not completely finished. Oh, okay. Oh, you know what what i'll decide when you when you're finished you're in you're in you're in you're in my my basement now you're you're you're sitting around my card table now and i'm and my dm screen is up up can't see what i'm doing dan you wanted to say something more? Yes. I've actually made it very clear to the group that I'm playing a character who, as part of his mental makeup, has poor impulse control.

Because the stronger you are physically, the weaker you are mentally. You can't just say, I'm amazingly smart, I'm amazingly strong, I'm amazingly magical. It doesn't work that way. So I had to strike a balance. It does in my bathroom mirror every morning. You are lucky then. So the other players know full well that, and I think have actually watched my character just get the snot beaten out of him and not gotten involved. And that's fine in my book. I say, if they say, well, Simon is going to get the crap kicked out of him, let him go. And this has actually happened where

they have been able to either hide or retreat without any damage to their characters whatsoever. And I encourage that. But it's not about damage to their characters. It's about love of the game. They like to roll those lore rolls. They like to sit around and talk about stuff and chew the

fat. Right. And if that's what their characters wish to do, then I wish them luck. Yeah, but it's not just the fat. Right, and if that's what their characters wish to do, then I wish them luck. Yeah, but it's not just the characters, it's your friends. Yes, this is very true. I mean, you can say all day long, well, I'm playing a character who has poor impulse control. You're the one with poor impulse

control. You chose him. No, you have a very good point. I don't want you Tom Hanksing me in mazes and monsters here where you lose sight of what the uh the the difference between the real world and the and the fake world it's you if it makes a difference i have very good impulse control as a human i know you've controlled yourself very well i appreciate that thank you but as as a character currently named simon i mean how do you respond to ryan's point that because of your uh high speed uh uh score or whatever you get to act first and essentially

determine the play for the rest of those guys you're asking as as the character simon does simon have a funny voice sim. Does Simon have a funny voice? Simon does not have a funny voice, but he has a different point of view than Dan does. All right, I will hear Simon's response. No, I will hear Dan's response first. Okay, Dan's response is that this is bringing a new dynamic to the story, one that we haven't experienced before. And I love variations in stories. I love seeing something different happen from time to time. And so I feel that this gives our group a better background,

more varied history that it can look back on and say, you know what, that was fun. That was interesting. And that was something we hadn't done before. That's Dan's point of view. Let's hear Simon's point of view. Simon would turn to Ryan's character, who's named Sid. We did not plan that out. And Simon's a bike passenger and Sid is a CD-ROM game

designer? No. He actually owns First Avenue. Oh, the Minneapolis Rock Club. The venue, yeah. Alright, good. So Simon would turn to Sid and say, that's nice, yeah. Yeah, all right, good. So Simon would turn to Sid and say, that's nice, you can talk all you want,

but you're not getting anything done. I'm going to get something done, you're not. And to what degree does Simon's inner voice align with your inner voice? 100%, 50%, or 0%? I would not rush into danger myself very often. I have a tendency to avoid it. I see. So Simon is a wish fulfillment character for you?

Oh, possibly. I'm sure every role playing character has certain aspects that you wish you saw of yourself, but that's an entire different discussion on psychology. I think you and I are the first people ever to notice that. We did a good job. We did a good job that this is an escapist fantasy it allows you to indulge parts of yourself that you don't otherwise indulge in the real world because there are no consequences if you attack the garrison killer even if you die

make the argument that you're trying to make though about how this is bringing depth to the game or more reality to the game well reality is a hard concept when you're talking about playing make-believe. So I don't believe I'm bringing more reality. If we're going to play a realistic game, then it's going to end up with us going out for chicken wings on Wednesday and drinking a pitcher of beer and then coming home safely. Reality isn't fun. That sounds fun to me. Well, okay.

So it's not as fun as fighting monsters and knowing that there's no real consequences and so again we have five or six players who are all very cautious who love playing i don't want to say the same type of character but characters that like to plan and so even when the dungeon master or storyteller or whatever throws a giant horrifying creature at us, they've planned so much that they realize there's actually not that much danger to their fictional characters. And instead of that, I would rather have a story that puts characters in situations that they hadn't necessarily planned on. I like the idea of thinking on your feet and solving things as a team in an

impromptu manner, instead of talking about it in game for two to three hours and then going through a 15 minute combat. All right. That's well, so you're like saying it's like you're like you're, you're, you're, you're poker game with your buddies. It's been going on for 10 years and all you do is play midnight baseball. It's time to mix it up.

Yeah, that's a good analogy ryan yes what would you have me decide if i were to decide in your favor what would you have me rule in other words dan and the entity currently called sim, make fairly compelling points. The only argument that you seem to make is that they have an unfair advantage because they, I'm talking about separate people now, Simon gets to operate first in every turn because of his super speed. So is there a structural change that i should be ordering

in order to uh handicap uh dan such that you all uh are once again uh burdened to mediocrity harrison bergeron style and can you can still get in your uh get in your lore roles and the stuff that you like? Is there something structural that I can order? There is. I do have two more points, though, for my case. Well, answer my question first, and then maybe I'll let you make your points. Well, I asked that the court order Dan to adhere to the group's style of play for the game that we're playing, whether it be focused on character immersion or wanton destruction. And I'm arguing that the Dresden Files, not only in

our game, but as the rule book intends, is set up as an investigation and lore rolling game. He is a magical detective, right? Exactly. That's the point. We're supposed to stake out the place and check out Garrison Killer before we beat him up. So I ask that you tell Dan that whatever game we happen to be playing, we he sticks to the style of play that we've defined at the beginning. And then is there do you guys play wanton destruction style games? Do you guys play Wanton Destruction style games? Not terribly often. We typically stick with games that are, even when playing Dungeons & Dragons, focused on story and character development.

And that's because at least five... Go on. I'm sorry? Finish your thought. That's because at least five out of seven of the people that we currently play with are very – like to play very story-driven characters, deep characters. Are you telling me that just because a character is fast or prone to violence or not as smart as you that they're not a deep character? Yeah, that's exactly what I'm telling you. Where does this prejudice come from that a human has to act like you think they should act or they're not deep? No, it's that the character who launches himself, him or herself, into battle right away is eliminating the possibility for our players and characters to interact with each other before the battle happens. You're skipping what could be a whole hour of gameplay and really good discussion and memorable moments in order to jump right into battle,

which is just rolling dice. And I'm trading it for a moment where some characters might come up with some absolutely amazing things right off the cuff that they wouldn't have done normally. So I can give them that opportunity at heroism that you've been taking away and substituting with library use. Well, you know that combat's going to happen. It's going to happen. It's inevitable.

But we like to prolong the moment. We like to have that moment of suspension of disbelief, where we can talk about whether or not it's right to kill Garrison Keillor or not. And we're still going to get those. We still plan ahead for certain encounters. But sometimes when Garrison Keillor pops up on the street, you have to react right then and there. Well, you do. And then we all have to. No, no, no, no, no. I do react in cases of immediate danger, but that's not all that we play. I never want this to end.

I never want this to end. I almost separated you as the bailiff, but we were both just so tickled to listen to you. Well, and fascinated. I mean, you guys make very powerful—I mean, this is a true trial by combat. Do either of you feel that you got a final word in there? A final word? I think so. I mean, there are issues that I haven't brought up yet.

And I'll be quick. But combat takes longer than banter. It just naturally does. It slows the game down. And we only get to act one at a time during combat. And that means less interaction. Plus, every time that Dan jumps into a combat, that throws away the opportunity for us to express ourselves as players. And part of role playing is therapy.

And for me to get to play this new character as escapism, that's my therapy. I'm letting out creativity and energy and pain and hope and aspirations. letting out creativity and energy and pain and hope and aspirations and jumping straight into combat reduces my character to a bunch of skills rather than a person. And would you just a quick question? Does Dan slash Simon leap into the fray in the way that you're accusing him a hundred percent of the time? I would, I would give it 70% of the time dan is dan slash currently named simon is that accurate 70 of the time i'll say that's fair dan do you have any final points you want to make before i go and go deep behind my dm screen and roll your fates absolutely uh i would say that ryan is attempting to limit the very escapism that he's trying to push on us here by saying, no, this character that you want to play as escapism or as you put it as therapy for yourself, you're not allowed to do that because I don't like it.

The way that I play is still well within the rules. And I believe that I still give our group enough opportunity to turn their back and say, no, we don't want to play that way. You're just going to get the snot beaten out of you. Or for them to say, no, listen, we're not going into a combat situation yet. Let's stay and plan. So as long as I stay within the rules, and as long as I play to a way that the book or the rules cannot argue with, I feel that Ryan should just allow me this bit of escapism. Dan, are you playing this way primarily for the group or for yourself? That is an excellent question, one that I had not thought of. I don't think it's an easy yes or no answer. I am playing this way because myself,

I find it fun and I feel that it will be beneficial for the group. All right. I think I've heard everything that I need to hear. I'm going to collect my dissect and I will be back in a few moments. Please rise. Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Ryan, Dan, Sid, Simon. Ryan, Dan, Sid, Simon, Feyblood, Sid, you run into floating Garrison Kraken. What's your first move?

Wow. Well, first I would pull my spell components out of the inside of my trench coat, and I would begin starting a ritual that would allow me to, I think, probably go invisible. Yeah, I'm going to cast a spell that lets me go invisible. What does floating Garrison Kraken have to do for you to kill him? I have no idea yet.

In fact, I'm going to try to extend my... You won't even consider it. Right off the – He could do nothing at first sight that would make you immediately kill him. Oh, immediately kill him? Right. He'd have to have like – he'd have to have innocent bystanders. He'd have to have babies in his tentacles.

Like he'd have to be squeezing the blood out of someone who is obviously an innocent. Sid Ryan, are you jealous of Simon Dan's speed and agility in his character, both as Sid and as Ryan? I wouldn't say jealous. I'm definitely put off by it in a way. OK, maybe it raises my hackles a little bit because. No, but are you jealous? Like, true jealousy. Like, ugh, I wish I was that fast.

I wish I could be calling the shots here. Yes, yes I am. If five out of seven of you prefer lore, Sid Ryan, can't you just kill him outright and never let him back into the game? Well, that's another thing. We've been playing different games together for 13 years.

So when Dan rushes into battle, my characters have to go save him because I like playing with Dan. I don't want to see his game end. Now, Simon Dan, the bicycle messenger, why do you want to go all Red Wedding on your friends? My friends are going to remain safe, and they're going to because I am there to protect them from floating garrison healer. So you consider yourself some sort of superhero? You're the you're Superman, Batman, Spider-Man of this role playing game Dresden Files. At this level, we're all somewhat heroes. I'm just simply one that's a little bit more physically based.

Did you choose Simon Speed so that you could control the game? I actually did not know that that would always give me the first action when I chose it. So that was a side effect that I didn't see coming. Now, you seemed insulted when Sid Ryan intimated that you were not a deep character, but you yourself said that your character, Simon, has more brawn than brains. Why did you take such offense to it? Because I feel that every human has a story. Every human has problems and trials and tribulations. Just because one person manifests something a little bit more physically doesn't mean that you should discount them and say, well, I'm obviously deeper than you. Who would win in a fight, your magical detective or floating tentacled garrison killer, Faye Ryan? Oh, my magical detective. Death Eater Dan.

There's a very good chance that if he's floating, he's got more powers than me and he may win. All right. We'll be back in just a moment with Judge John Hodgman's decision. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right?

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A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. So, first of all, I've been a little bit of a bully with you guys taking the jock role to you nerds. But you have to understand that it's only because I wish I were you. In a sense, I grew up, I never really played D&D, but I was certainly D&D adjacent. I hung out with the kids who played it. I occasionally sat in on a few campaigns and uh i loved i'm very much uh uh fairy blood sid on this one and then i loved the element of

hanging out with my friends uh going into a fantasy world where we could feel briefly empowered and not and not scared and afraid all the time and i did not understand why i had to do so much dumb math in order to do that all of them tables and charts and blah let's just sit around and pretend to be other people like we want to be that's what that was my feeling and so i left the table very early on. Well, I mean, I don't even remember what edition of D&D. Long after my fascination with Top Secret had faded. Long after I attempted and failed to craft an RPG set in the Watership Down universe, which I think exists in real life now.

Whether or not I had that idea first, I don't know. It's a matter of disputes and i and i went on and i went on to other other uh less uh less uh uh uh arithmetically taxing uh uh fantasy pursuits like watching movies and reading books i guess and so on but i still had friends who were really deep into this and and it can be a very deep relationship in the same way that getting together, as I did for many years with a bunch of poker friends, was similarly more than just the game, but also about a moment, a ritual of meeting together, organized around a simple practice that we all enjoyed, a chance to check in with each other and to check in on ourselves as we went through various stages of our of our lives, careers, marriages, divorces, what have you. Because this game went on for 11 years before it kind of petered out. And the hard thing was that it did peter out, and not through any decision, but because people grow in different directions, even dudes who dress alike and look alike.

They grow interiorly in different directions, and their lives take them in different places. They grow interiorly in different directions, and their lives take them in different places. And poker is an easy game in the sense that you are always in it for yourself. And the moment that you have chosen to collect your winnings and walk away is an honored choice. different kind of game because it is at once selfishly therapeutic, both in the fantasy world of getting to act out impulses that you might not act out in the real world, but also just getting a chance to take some time away from the daily grind of your life and be among friends and be in this fantasy world, but also collaborative in the sense that you guys are supposedly working on a team to some sort of common goal.

I take very seriously what Fairyblood Sid, a.k.a. Ryan, said about the rules of this particular RPG, or the intent of this particular RPG. I don't know a lot about Harry Dresden, but I do know that it is a magical detective game where you are hunting out secrets in an alternate world Midwestern city that may or may not be Chicago, depending on how the light falls on it. era occupations and things like bicycle messengers and fax machines and phone books and operating magicians, which frankly, you don't see that much anymore since the internet. And so in a sense, I absolutely sympathize that it seems as though Dan is operating on an impulse that is contrary to the spirit of the game and that is patently unfair to his collaborators in the game. Insofar as that he every turn due to his the speed of his character, he sets the tone for how that round is going to be played. tone for how that round is going to be played. And if turn after turn, round after round, Dan is setting a tone that is not enjoyable to his other players, that is a problem both in-game and IRL, because he's going to piss off his friends to the point that they'll take him to court, internet court, Judge John Hodgman, which is where we are now.

So how do I decide? Well, the reality is that Dan is playing within the rules. Even if he confuses his motivation, which is clearly an inner bloodlust and desire to move on with his life in a different direction, emotionally and in the game, with a, I think, patently bogus, invented altruistic motive to shake up the game for everyone's benefit. That is obviously not true.

Sometimes everyone in the game wants to play Anaconda, even though it's a dumb game. You're ready to move on to a real poker game. These guys still want to play... I can't say the name of the game because it's obscene. They want to play these dumb poker games. These wild card games. You want to play real poker.

They want to play a double midnight reverse baseball doubleheader with a Persian twist or whatever. All cards are wild or whatever. Because for them, it's just about fun. But for you, you're ready to play some real poker. After a while, the two styles of play are going to become incompatible. And you're going to have to break up. There's nothing wrong with what Dan is doing.

you're going to have to break up. There's nothing wrong with what Dan is doing. The reality is that the game you're playing, Fairy Blood Sid, is a combination of predestination and free will. In other words, you are enacting a fantasy and you could just sit around with your friends and pretend that you were exploring

a mythological Minneapolis with a stunted St. Paul attached to it. You never have to roll a dice at all. You never have to have the element of randomness whatsoever. But you don't. You roll the dice, you play with other people, and they also have different ideas of how to play, and it is a legitimate change of atmosphere to the game that you have chosen to play unfortunately i can't find in your favor even though it's clear that dan is doing

something selfish uh and uh and is doing something um contrary to the general spirit of the game it's not against the rules you're all playing by the same rules and your fantasy and unfortunately you have chosen to be those kinds of nerds whose fantasies need rules and rule books and what you're learning is that even old friends uh grow uh grow distant and apart and see things differently it doesn't mean you can't continue to remain friends doesn't mean you can't continue to remain friends, doesn't mean you can't continue to play, but in this heightened reality of the game, you see the soft reality, which is the slow degradation of all of our relationships over time, or at least, say, evolution. That's my role-playing game, the slow degradation of all of our relationships over time,.net. It's kind of a watershed down game, except with humans instead of rabbits and you'll either have to adapt

to his style of play or he to yours or you're going to have to stop playing together you know Dan I wish I could say to you hey you know what listen to your friends they don't dig you doing this all or even 70% of the time take it down a thousand but Simon

the little man who controls your thoughts inside your head won't allow that to happen he's a super fast uh bicycle racer uh and you're using him to get something out of you so you know you can you can make different choices uh if they're if they're true enough to simon to play but you know i think i think you know this is it is it is in the dresden files as it is in life you roll the dice and you take your chances um sometimes hard things happen so i'm very sorry uh sid i hope this does not affect first as i hope this does not affect first avenue's decision to book me into excuse me the Cedar Cultural Center on 416 Cedar Avenue South in Minneapolis, Minnesota on Thursday, 3rd October 2013, promoted by First Avenue Events. Please don't cancel my concert in the game or in real life.

But in this case, I find in favor of Simon, a.k.a. Dan. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Faye Ryan Sid, he did not rule in your favor. In your opinion, is Dan really playing by the rules

of the Dresden Files? Maybe not so much the specific rules, but the spirit of the rules. That's exactly the problem. He is playing by the rules, by the letter of the rules, in that he gets to roll dice. But he is not playing by the spirit

because he knows full well what kind of characters the rest of the group has made. And he's choosing to bypass that by going straight into combat. So, no. Now, Bicycle Messenger Simon Dan, are you, next time you get together, first move taking your super fast bicycle and killing Fey, Rye, and Sid right out? It will be tempting, but unfortunately, Sid himself does still have a conscience, and so does Simon. And so he'll have to make that judgment call, and Sid has been a pretty good guy in the game so far. Do you feel that this ruling will affect your friendship in the

real world, not in the bicycle messenger puck sense of the real world, but in the actual real world? Well, I personally, for a second there, I thought the judge was going to order us to stop playing together, and that was sort of like cutting the baby in half, and I was really nervous about that. But no, having been able to voice my side and having been shot down by his honorable judge,

I think it's okay. I can move on, I guess. Just kill him. Just kill him. All five of you guys get together and kill him every time first move. Yeah. That's how it's done in the real fake world. Bully him out.

Out-jock him. He's trying to jock you guys and using the old just because I'm a jock, that doesn't mean I'm not deep argument with you. Just kill him. Or kill him like seven times in a row until he finally gets the hint, and then maybe he'll mellow him out. Yeah, mellow him out with death. Who's him that we're talking about killing? Simon! Are you Simon Dan

Bicycle Messenger? Dang it. They sure could if they combined. There's five out of seven of them. Who knows what they could roll with their hexagonal die. All's fair in fake love and fake war guys but you got real love keep the fake war civil that's what i have to say

ryan fay and dan simon bicycle bicycle messenger thank you for being on the judge john hodgman podcast thank you well thank you hello everybody it's me, your judge, John Hodgman. I wanted to share with you some dates in the near future when I will be coming to your town, a town near you or a town nowhere near you to perform comedy in a live setting. This is all new comedy stylings since my Netflix Ragnarok special. Ragnarok special and I hope you'll be able to join me starting on Friday 6th September at the Rex Theater in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania where I'll be performing along with Pittsburgh local favorite Gab Bonesso then skipping forward Thursday October 3rd I will be in Minneapolis at the Cedar Cultural Center Friday October 4th I'll be in Iowa City. It's a rescheduled date. Iowa City at the Englert Theater. Thank you very much for your understanding, Iowans. And also, thank you for your understanding,

Madisonians of Wisconsin, for I had to reschedule my date there to Saturday, the 5th of October at the Barrymore Theater in Madison, Wisconsin. I also have confirmed book dates at the Wilbur Theater, returning to my hometown of Boston, Massachusetts, Greater Boston, Brookline. Saturday, the 2nd of November, the Wilbur Theater. And then on the 8th of November, I will be appearing with Al Madrigal of The Daily Show as part of our occasional Daily Show live tour in the fantastic Paramount Theater in Austin, Texas. All of these dates are confirmed, locked in, and available for ticket buying or simply ticket browsing at www.johnhodgman.com slash tour.

Please look again at this page soon, for very soon I will be announcing dates in October when I will be performing live with my friends Eugene Merman and Kristen Schaal on a Merman-Schaal-Hodgman sandwich tour through various cities of the United States in October. So please check often and I will let you know when I have confirmed dates for those. And also please, won't some one of you or more of you go up, without bothering this person, go to the southbound service plaza in Kennebunkport, Maine, and find the guy, the young man, the comedic genius, who is saying, fresh bananas here, while wiggling his fingers, and will you give him my best, and buy several bananas,

and take a photograph, every photograph I get of you with this guy, and I would love to know his name, and I'd love to welcome him on the podcast, because I adore him. I'll give you a free Canadian House of Pizza and Garbage t-shirt, which are available online at MaximumFun.org, along with the Judge John Hodgman show page, along with all the discussion boards, along with your chance to subscribe,

and everything else. So please make that your homepage for Judge John Hodgman, johnhodgman.com forward slash tour for my personal appearance dates. That is all. Judge John Hodgman, is Floating Garrison Keillor going to be joining you at that Minneapolis show, sponsored by First Avenue? Honestly, if Garrison Keillor did a-in on my show, I'd be very excited. I love him.

I love him. You didn't have Dungeons and Dragons, you said, but did you have the Dungeons and Dragons Intellivision game? I had two. No, first of all, that was Atari 2600. Oh, I think they have an Intellivision version, too. I'm thinking of Adventure, of course. What a terrible nerd. I know you had Intellivision, though, right? I had Colecovision. Oh, right. Yeah. But nerd. I know you had Intellivision though, right? I had

Colecovision. Oh, right. Yeah. But I have a fondness for Intellivision because George Plimpton. Right. But I was a dabbler in D&D culture. But I was full on in public radio culture. I was a Prairie Home Companion nerd going back far.

Happy to Be Here by Garrison Keillor is one of the great books of short humor, like New Yorker pieces. Ugh, I'll read it again and again. And my favorite part about it is that it's credited to Garrison Keillor, world's tallest radio comedian.

It's in the byline. Don't tell me Garrison Keillor hasn't got it. Hipsters. Alright, go on. Time to clear the docket. I'll roll for docket. Yes, I made my roll. Don't tell me Garrison Keillor hasn't got it. Hipsters. Alright, go on. Time to clear the docket. I'll roll for docket. Yes, I made my roll.

I believe this counts as lore. Lore. Aaron writes, My close friend Whitney has strange ideas about ice cream cakes. She maintains that an ice cream cake can be made of only ice cream with no cake involved at all. I think this is a linguistic perversion. A quote ice cream cake contains both ice cream and cake, typically layered or rolled in some way. A block of ice cream shaped like a cake is just ice cream, no matter how it's shaped. I would like you to issue

an injunction against Whitney's use of ice cream cake and stipulate that those words only refer to proper ice cream cakes. In the immortal lyrics of Jonathan Colton, whose own cruise, Joko Cruise Crazy 4, will be setting sail with me again next February, as well as my stint on the other cruise, the Atlantic Ocean Comedy and Music Festival at BoatParty.biz this September. I'm cruising it up.

But in the immortal lyrics of Jonathan Colton, expect a visit from Fudgy the Whale, ice cream and crunchies in his fudgy tale. I'm having a party. Hey, wanna come over? There is nothing in that description of that ice cream cake that was cake. It was just ice cream and also crunchies.

Obviously, ice cream in the shape of a cake is called ice cream cake. And ice cream in the shape of a whale is ice cream cake. And if you turn the shape of the whale upside down, cookie puss. Or Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. I love Carvel cake. That's right. Just all depends on how you look at it. All ice cream, just cookies. No real cake. That's right. Just all depends on how you look at it. All ice cream, just cookies.

No real cake. That's right. No real cake. Should we move on? I plugged two cruises. Let's move on. Jason writes, I moved in with my girlfriend, Caitlin, last year and in doing so became the co-custodian of two cats.

The co-custodian. I'm allergic to cats, but I've been taking several allergy medicines to combat the effects. It's been only mildly successful. I've accepted that I must sacrifice a small amount of comfort in order to live with my girlfriend, but one of the cats has very long hair and leaves small tufts of it on the carpet, in addition to the regular hair accumulation. I've suggested to Caitlin several times that we might shear the long-haired cat using the, quote, lion cut, which would leave a flowing mane and a long hair on the tail.

However, Caitlin refuses, claiming that it is inhumane. Even though I have, in the past, subjected my own cats to the same treatment, and they seem to not mind. Wait, you're allergic to cats, and you have cats? That is ridiculous. I believe that she is too attached to the cat's luxurious coat. Please order my girlfriend to allow me to have the cat's hair professionally trimmed at least one time as an experiment.

If, after the initial haircut, she still feels strongly about the matter i will no longer pressure her to do so i look no one no one likes to humiliate cats more than me i order your girlfriend to break up with you you allergic hypocrite who keeps cats in order simply to cut their hair in weird ways for your own amusement? You two-faced liar. You weirdo who has cats even though you're allergic and then you dare to complain to me about keeping someone else's cats and that she won't let you trim them to your weird pleasure? What are you, keeping cats in a well in your basement and telling them to jump around or else they get the hose again?

You're weird. What if he never had a cat, got a cat, found out he was allergic to cats, gave it the lion cut, and that's where this all comes from, but then didn't want to give away his cat. Is that a real thing? Is the lion cut a real thing? You don't have cats. I do have a cat, but we couldn't give her a lion cut. Rosita, my black cat. Have you met her?

Listeners, write in and tell us whether we should give Rosita a lion cut. If there are cat groomers out there who are literally cutting cats' hair like a poodle, that's weird to me because a cat's hair is not the same texture. They have to be long-haired cats to do the lion cut. You couldn't do it. My cat has like a sleek black cat look to it.

Right. But I mean, it's still not the same texture as a poodle or a dog. Like, I've never... If that happens, I honestly, perhaps I'm not very worldly, but I've never seen it. I think I have seen it. And I wouldn't go so far as to say it's inhumane. It's certainly ridiculous looking. Yeah. You see this tiny cat that it's like baby Simba, but

with a mane. I think, you know what, cats have to go to the bathroom in a box. They're humiliated enough. Don't give them that cut. And don't, don't, and by the way, don't be a sociopath and claim that the reason that you want to give your

girlfriend's cats a weird haircut is because you're allergic when in reality you had cats of your own in order to give them a weird haircut. Like, just stop lying to yourself and others, dude. Look yourself in the mirror. Give yourself a line

cut. Look yourself in the mirror and realize what you are, a monster. Ugh. Wow. Thank you. Thank you very much, Radio Sound Effects Board. Thank you. I knew I was right. Thanks to TaviP for suggesting this week's case name.

Thanks, TaviP. To suggest a name for a future case, like us on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions future case, like us on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions. I've been your guest bailiff, Monty Belmonte, morning host of 93.9 The River, WRSI in Northampton. Thanks, Monty. Thanks, The River. Thanks for joining us for the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Bonk. Bonk. The end. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at gosuperego.com. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts about the show, join the conversation on our forum at forum.maximumfund.org

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