Judge John Hodgman - Resisting a Rest

Episode Date: November 22, 2013

Juliet brings the case against her fiance, Tom. Tom is a "disc ultimate" enthusiast. He's sustained several injuries over the past few years playing the sport. Juliet says he should take a season to recover and prepare to play again. Tom says he's running out of time and needs to get back in the game.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, resisting a rest. Juliet brings the case against her fiancé, Tom. Tom is a disc-ultimate enthusiast. He's sustained several injuries over the past few years playing the sport. Juliet says he should take a season to recover and prepare to play again. Tom says he's running out of time and needs to get back in the game. Who's right? Who's wrong?

Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Well, there's time for a quick trivia question. Here it comes. Which of the following common generic words did not begin life as a commercial brand name? Which of the following words did not begin life as a commercial brand name? Listen carefully. Aspirin, heroin, frisbee, escalator, barbecue, or moxie. I'll take my answer after the swearing-in ceremony today on Judge John Hodgman. Swear I'm in, Jesse. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?

I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his athletic allegiances run decidedly towards sports ball, in which he is a Hall of Famer? Agreed. I do. Very well, Judge Hodgman. Juliet and Tom, you may be seated.

For an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors, can either of you name the piece of popular culture I was referencing as I entered the courtroom? I cannot. No, of course you cannot. Tom? Frisbee? Answer is no. I'm not asking you to answer the question.

I'm asking you to answer the piece of culture that I was referencing. And the piece of culture that I was referencing, there's no way you could have gotten it. Well, unless you're me or Chuck Bryant or Jesse Thorne. That was one of the trivia questions that Chuck and I asked in our pub quiz at the last MaxFunCon past June. And Jesse, isn't the new MaxFunCon about to open for ticket sales? Yes, the day after Thanksgiving. And that's for next June, right, of 2014 or the end of May? End of May, yeah. May 30th through June 1st. Yeah. It's a really fun event where we have pub quizzes and you might hear a question like

that. Now, since there was no way you could have answered that, I will instead pose the trivia question. And if you get it right, immediate summary judgment in your favor and we all go home. Which of the following common words did not begin life as a commercial brand name? Do you understand the question, guys? Yes. All right.

Here are the words again. Aspirin, heroin, frisbee, escalator, barbecue, moxie. I will say escalator. Tom, do you have a guess? Frisbee. Both are wrong. First of all, escalcalator, you understand that the question was which of them did not begin life as a commercial brand name. Escalator was a good guess.

You would not imagine that that is a trademark name of the company that makes Escalator. I don't remember the name of it. As is Moxie, which was a diet soda. Aspirin and heroin both were trademarks of Bayer until World War I. Actually, I think aspirin is still a trademark in some countries. Frisbee, Tom, you should know better. You already basically work for Wham-O. Yeah, Tom, you know that your sport is not called Ultimate Frisbee because that is a trademark owned by Wham-O, right?

Absolutely, yeah. So then why did you guess Frisbee? You knew you would be wrong. Keeping it real, Judge. The correct answer is barbecue. That did not begin life as a commercial trademark. There you go. So already you seem very confused, Tom. Perhaps you've taken a few too many flying discs to the noggin. That could happen, yeah, absolutely. So this case revolves around Juliet's concern with your disc ultimate. We'll just call it ultimate. Passion for ultimate, the sport of ultimate, which is a game involving a flying disc.

Is that correct, sir? Yes, sir. For those who are not familiar with Ultimate, that is to say those who did not go to college in America and have no familiarity with the sport Ultimate, what is it? familiarity with the sport ultimate. What is it? It's a seven-on-seven game that looks a little bit like basketball, a little bit like football. You can't move with the Frisbee, and you score points by catching the Frisbee in an end zone. All right. Tom, I'm going to interrupt you there, and I'm actually going to explain it for someone who's never seen the game before. I'm going to interrupt you, John. It looks a little bit like basketball, a little bit like football, and a little bit like a drum circle.

The game of Ultimate is a sport that was invented late 60s, early 70s. I think the first official game was between Rutgers and Princeton in 1972. When people got tired of kicking the hacky sack around and they picked up the flying disc, commonly known as a Frisbee, trademark whammo, buzz marketing, they created a game that looks nothing like basketball or football. it looks so it looks a little bit like soccer where you try to advance a frisbee or flying disc down the field into the opponent's end zone and you cannot move when you're holding the disc so you you pass it to your teammates when tom said esoterically it's a seven on seven game that means there are seven players on each side.

And you attempt to move the Frisbee, advance the Frisbee forward by throwing it like a Frisbee. And if you are throwing it, you are called a what, Tom? A thrower. A handler is what Wikipedia told me, sir. I didn't want to get too technical for the non-Frisbee folks. Well, this is where I'm introducing the technical terms because I enjoy them so much. I got it. Okay.

Yes. A handler, which is my position. I can tell you are a handler, Tom Handler. And someone who is attempting to catch the flying disc is called a... A cutter. A cutter. Like the country cutter and different spelling. And confusingly, the attempt to advance the Frisbee forward is called a pull.

Do I understand that correctly? It's like a kickoff. The pole is like a kickoff in football. OK, so the pole is like a kickoff in football. Right. Okay. So the pull is like a kickoff. But the best thing, the reason that pull is a good sports term is that it describes the exact opposite of the action that is taking place. Because you are advancing the Frisbee by throwing your arm outward. In no way are you pulling anything towards you. Is that not correct, sir? No, you're right.

Absolutely. And for that term alone, if any of you have doubts, that's what qualifies disc ultimate, ultimate or sometimes called illegally ultimate frisbee as a sport. Because it uses confusing terms that keep people outside of it and is pleasant only to the initiates like Tom. Tom, you love this sport, don't you? Yes, sir. Deeply. But there's a problem, is there not? Yes, there is. That's why you're here. Juliet, why don't you state the problem?

The problem is that for at least the five years that I've known Tom, he's been consistently injured while playing Ultimate Frisbee season after season. And this affects his ability to continue to play through the season. So first of all, you've known each other for five years and you are engaged to be married. Is that correct? That is correct. Yes, sir. And how long have you played Ultimate, Tom? 11 years. And how did you get started?

I started freshman year at the University of Kansas. Okay. Is that a good Ultimate team? They have a good squad? Yeah, it's one of the older ones. They have had a lot of success, yeah. And now you are what age? 29. And what level are you playing at now? Are you a professional? I'm not a professional. I do play competitively.

Just recently, there's been pro leagues, but I don't play in those. Okay. But so what league do you play in? Last year, I played with a co-ed team in Kansas City. We just recently moved. But I've been playing co-ed Frisbee the last few years. Okay, so you played in Kansas City with this co-ed team called what, the Handlers? No, we were called Ad Astra. Ad Astra, which is the motto of Kansas, is it not? Yes, sir. That's why we named it that. To the, which is the motto of Kansas, is it not? Yes, sir.

That's why we named it that. To the stars. To the stars through difficulties. Through difficulty. That's right. I forgot about the second half of the Kansas motto. Ad Astra. How does it go?

Ad Astra what? Per Aspera. Ad Astra per Aspera? That's correct. Yep. I don't think that's right because per Aspera I'm pretty sure is an asthma inhaler. At the risk of extending this into non-family friendly territory, Ad Astra is also the motto of an organization that I started on Jordan Jesse Go, the Boner Society, which is dedicated – Kids, cover your ears unless you're, and just turn down the volume.

It's completely, I mean, its function is completely non-sexual. It's about achieving your ultimate purpose in life. And our motto is Ad Astra, or to the stars. To the stars. Yeah. Did you know that that was the motto of the state of Kansas? No, I didn't, but I'm happy to hear it. As we've discussed before on this program, my family's roots are in Kansas.

There we go. So. It's also the motto of the bats that live in the bat house. You can catch up on all the past Judge John Hodgman podcasts by going to maxmanfund.org slash JJ Ho. You can also submit cases. But, oh, wait a minute. This is not the end. This is the beginning. Right. Barely. Right. So listen, when you're 29 years old and you're playing for the

Ad Astra's Ultimate Squads in Kansas City, you're playing against other 29-year-olds. This is just sort of intramural local teams get together, club teams, club games? Right. It's a national team, so we traveled quite a bit, and you play teams that all compete under USA Ultimate, which is the sports governing body. So it's a national contest. So you go all over the country playing other former hacky-sackers and trying to beat them at the game. Correct. Is my association of Ultimate with hacky sackers and trying to beat them at the game. Correct.

Is my association of Ultimate with hacky sackers unfair, or is that just because the one guy I know who played Ultimate fairly seriously in high school and college also loved to hack? I would say that it's not. The hippie origins of the sport are extinct. the hippie origins of the sport are extinct. Um, it's, it's a, it's a,

it's no longer just the domain of hacky sackers and pot smokers. Okay. Now it's all, it's all tough guys like you, right? Jack super tough guys. Yeah. All right.

And, and girls. Yeah. I like that. Okay. So what's the farthest you ever gone to play ultimate? Uh, I went to, uh, uh – I've been to San Diego.

Not in terms of your inner existence, Hippie. I mean like how far did you travel? I've been on both coasts. I've played in probably 20 states, all over. And do you have any – do you have a rival? Does Ad Astra have a hated rival? That was actually the first year of that team. So we hadn't really built up a rivalry yet.

It was kind of a group of players from all over Kansas City that had gotten together for the first time. So we didn't have time to build up rivalries yet. didn't have time to build up rivalries yet. What team is historically sort of the most dominant and villainous of Ultimate teams in the United States? The Yankees, if you will, of Ultimate. Sure. Well, there's a college division, and in the college division, UC Santa Barbara is generally seen as the evil empire.

And for a Kansan, the University of Texas, which I now work at, was for a long time our hated rival. And so there's different divisions. There's also a men's division where just strictly men play. And there is different rivalries in that as well. All right. Good. I've completed my research for my book proposal on Ultimate Disc Playing, and now I will settle your case. You speak directly to the heart of the case because you now work in the territory of the hated, the University of Texas, what's their team called? The Longhorns?

Actually, so with the universities when Ultimate started for real in the late 80s. Book proposal's done, sir. Just answer the question. What is the University of Texas team called? TUFF, T-U-F-F. TUFF tough all right and then a little later on you'll you can explain why it's called that texas university freedom

frisbees or something what is it go ahead tell me i believe it's texas ultimate frisbee friends you are so you're yeah so i can see now how the hippie origins of the sport have been well left behind. Sure. Well, hey, that's not my team. No. They're extinct, eh? But two things have changed in your life. One, you have moved to the territory of the enemy and you have had to leave Ad Astra behind.

Two, you have been beaten senseless by this game that you love. Is that not so? Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Juliet, what are the injuries that he has sustained? Well, I'll start with the most recent one and go backwards. In July, he had an ACL tear. That's a knee injury. Anterior cruciate ligament. Yes, thank you. It's pretty serious. It required surgery to repair. Ten months before that, he ruptured his Achilles tendon, and it was a full rupture. So, not to get too graphic, but it completely snapped in half and needed to be surgically repaired. Whoa, ouch. And to keep going backwards, there have been seasons with, let's see, you had a fractured shin, a hairline fracture in his shin.

He's had a problem with a hand that I don't think it was caused by Frisbee, but he affected his ability to play, so that required surgery. Before the ACL tear, he had had some problems with his knees. He had also had heel problems before the Achilles rupture, sprained ankles, general sports injuries, but in a really consistent way. There was that time he tripped over the dragon bong and fell into the yurt. and fell into the yurt. Sure. Tom, is everything Juliet saying true?

Yes. You had two surgeries? Yep. For ultimate related reasons? Yeah. Do you have any Vicodin left over? No, I don't. Why are you getting beat up so much in this sport?

Are you terrible at it? No, I don't. Why are you getting beat up so much in this sport? Are you terrible at it? No, I hope not. With the ACL, the doctor assured me that it was just dumb luck. What happened? I was making a cut, and my knee went pop, and it hurt real bad. And, yeah, so it was pretty cut and dry with the achilles technically it was pretty cut and pop sorry i apologize with the achilles with the achilles tendon it was just one of those things i was playing ultimate with hector outside of the walls of Troy. Right. I got stabbed by Achilles.

Yeah. He cut me with his sword on my Achilles tendon. I was making a cut and it just snapped. I would like to add, though, that that was a building problem. He had had pain in his Achilles before. that that was a building problem. He had had pain in his Achilles before. And the surgeon, in fact, told us that when he went to repair that Achilles,

it was in incredibly bad shape, that he had clearly been playing through a lot of pain. And, in fact, an older player that we know in Ultimate, who was a few decades older than Tom, Decades. had had, just coincidentally, the same injury a few months before, and the same surgeon had performed the surgery. And the surgeon said that that older player's Achilles was in much better shape than Tom's. So what are you maintaining here, Julia, that this is inherently a violent sport, more so than the others? Is he having injuries at a greater or equal rate to his teammates? Oh, his injuries are certainly at a greater rate. Both of these most recent serious

injuries are in fact common injuries in Ultimate, but I can't think of anyone else who's had both of them, let alone in a 10-month span. Actually, both of these injuries are pretty common in any field sports, like any sport where you wear cleats, just because of how cleats make your feet and knees move. I just think Tom's issue is that because he's getting these injuries so consistently, something isn't working right. Like he's either not taking the time to recover, or his body is just not built for this. Like something is happening at a rate that is not consistent with other ultimate players. Do you have any training in sports medicine, Juliet?

I have no sports medicine training whatsoever. What is your field of expertise in life? U.S. history. Okay. And to a lesser extent, nagging. Am I right, Tom? Plead the fifth. Yeah.

I have a U.S. history degree from your bailiff's alma mater, the University of California at Santa Cruz. Tom, how is UC Santa Cruz's ultimate team these days? Really good. When I was in college, we actually played them and we won. So we've played them a couple of times. They're not bad. You know why they're so good?

Because there's so few hippies at UC Santa Cruz and the hippie part of Ultimate Frisbee is now extinct. I'm sorry. You guys want to just continue having a conversation or am I holding the court here? Sorry. May I please ask you to both shut your conversation or am I holding a court here? Sorry.

May I please ask you to both shut your pie holes so I can ask some questions? Yes, sir. Sorry, Your Honor. You got a hold. You can talk to him when I go into my chambers. Jesse Thorne taking over with school talk. You know, when I went to Yale, we never would have done stuff like that. Brown's pretty good at Ultimate.

Okay, enough. Juliet. Yes. You want Tom to quit playing Ultimate Frisbee, I mean Ultimate Disc Sport, Ultimate Sport. Yes, for one year. You want him to quit? For one year. Forever?

No, just this one year. It is too important to him. I know he will not stop forever, but I think he needs a year to let his body get used to the number of surgeries and injuries it has accrued and take some time off, train in the off season,

which he hasn't been able to do because he's always been recovering from surgery. So then he can reenter the sport with increased enthusiasm, vigor, and capabilities. And resiliency. Absolutely. Okay. So the reason I was asking you if you had any training in sports medicine was I was trying to ascertain one way or the other about how he should proceed with his hobby? A doctor – so Tom's interactions with doctors tend to be specific injury-based. so for example with this latest achilles injury or excuse me his acl tear we're now in austin so he's a different doctor who's working with this one injury and tracking this one injury for his

ability to return to the game and i must say he has consistently followed the advice of doctors at least in terms of time to start playing again i I don't know if he's consistent in his pain management and pain recognition in his play, but my concern is that there's just this avalanche of injury that is not being addressed when a doctor tells him at a certain point he can reenter the game based on his latest specific injury. So you're saying the doctors are only advising him with relation to the latest injury and not

taking into account the entire history? Correct. All right. Okay. And Tom, what do you think about Juliet's contention that she knows better than doctors and that you should take a year off now that you've moved to Austin to recover and then train and then reenter the sport with renewed vigor? therapist that kind of oversees my entire health. And I would really like to put the yes or no, if I can play again in her hands, as she's a trained medical professional. So that would seem like the road I would like to go down with her determining if I can play or not. Where's your physical therapist? Here in Austin. And why have you moved to Austin in any case? Are you there to spy and sabotage the ultimate Frisbee toughies of Texas or whatever they're

called? We both accepted positions at the University of Texas. What is your field of expertise? I'm in recruitment and I actually just got a cool new job recruiting graduate students. To cults? To the cult of ultimate? Or what I call cultimate? To the Institute of Cellular and Molecular Biology. I see. I see. Juliet, what does it feel like to be a ultimate widow when Tom is playing actively?

How much time is he away? What is it like? lasts from the end of June or mid-June to the end of October, depending on how far the team gets in competition at the end of the year. He practices with that team one to two times a week. It really depends on the team. When he played on men's teams, those are generally slightly more competitive, so he would practice more often. With the co-ed team, it's more like once a week. With every few weekends, what's called a power weekend, where they spend the whole weekend practicing. And then I'd say he's gone maybe once a month on a trip to a tournament, and that's the whole weekend he drives somewhere. For a while, I would go along, and then i got kind of tired of these super long car rides um but so i would not say

it's a significant amount of time um but generally in addition to that he's playing in what i guess we could call like a beer league a purely for fun um get together with all different people in the area so that's a whole yeah so he. So that's a whole, yeah. So he's playing both at the same time. That's a situation where he's just playing Ultimate for fun. Yes. Tom, is this true that you also play Ultimate for beer in a completely separate league?

Yeah, absolutely. Every summer, that's definitely something you do to socialize and kind of stay in shape and play. It's fun to play all the time. See, Juliette, what I'm trying to ascertain here, and I'm going to urge you to answer me honestly, you're suggesting that it's really not a big deal how much he travels. Is that accurate? I understand how important Ultimate is to Tom and how important that circle of people is.

I would not say it's an excessive amount of time, especially because it's not for the whole year. It's part of the year. And so, Tom, you would like to begin playing Ultimate again as soon as possible. And would that be this coming June? Yes, sir. Or would that be tomorrow? No, I still have not been cleared by the doctor to even run yet. So it's up to the doctor when I can even start, you know, jogging around and doing anything like that.

Are you in pain currently? No. Because you're managing it? No, not at all. Are you taking any medications? No, not at all. Are you taking any medications? I am not, no. Oh, then I guess you don't need those Vicodins anymore, right? No, not at all.

You can have them. Okay. Oh, no, that's not what I'm saying, but just if you could give them to me, that would be great. No problem. Just kidding, NSA. Just joking around. Okay, okay anyway wait a minute are the NSA listening to podcasts now that's right well they're trying they're trying to crack down on patent infringers just oh inside podcast joke that's an inside podcast community joke. It's a classic seven on seven. All right, Tom, you want to start playing as soon as possible?

That's June. Do you think you're going to be ready? I hope so, yeah. The Achilles was a little bit more severe in terms of recovery time, and I felt that I was ready. I had the injuries almost at the exact same time. When was the last injury? The ACL was this past July.

And so I had to – So you had the ACL surgery in July? I had the ACL surgery in August. In August. Okay. Yeah. So why not wait? Why not wait?

I mean, what's the harm? I just – I can't perform yet do you agree or disagree no but i mean why not wait the longer period of time why not wait until june 2015 sure sure do you do you disagree with juliet's assessment that if you if you took more time to recover and if you then trained in the offseason, that you would be a stronger player going into 2015? Do you dispute that? I dispute that in that I feel like I'm getting older. Like father time is catching up with me. Sure, 29 years old.

Oh, boy. Yeah, I can hear your whiskers. But certainly I have a finite amount of time left that I can play competitively. So I want to make sure that I use those years up as much as possible. How much time? You were already talking about a guy who's playing the Frisbee game who's decades older than you. Oh, he was terrible.

No doubt about that. And I should clarify that that injury occurred in like the beer league style play. He was not touring competitively. And by beer league, that means everyone's drunk when they're playing? No, you get drunk afterwards in the parking lot. Gotcha. Vicodin's before the game, beer after. Correct.

You know. I understand. How much time do you estimate you have left in your competitive life? Probably three to five years tops. And at that point, the Frisbee takes you out back and shoots you in the head or prohibits you from playing or what? Do you have to try out for these teams? It's a ceremony where they shoot you in the head.

No, it's, you know, at that time we'll probably have a family and other career concerns. So there's just, you know, both physically and kind of life-wise, there's just a set limit on how long I kind of want to keep playing. Do you have to try, you're not currently on a team because you're in a new town. So the question is whether or not you're going to join this team, right? Right. Well, there's a, there's a bunch of options in Austin. What are your options?

Well, there's probably three or four teams i can i can try out for um and so i'm i'm actually still kind of in the process of networking and socializing and trying to figure out what those what those options are and i still have to try out and so um you have you got the warriors you got the grammar sea park riffs you got the orphans you got the Gramercy Park Riffs, you got the Orphans, you got the Lizzies, right? All of those. Yeah. There's a couple of different teams here, yeah. What's the team you want to join?

Maybe you don't want to tip your hand yet. No, it's called La Costa Nostra. And they're a co-ed team and I'd really like to play with them. Is it hard to get onto that team? That I don't know. Just generally speaking, what's the percentage

of people who try out who get onto the team? 100%? No. You can have 27 people on a team so it really depends on how many people try out. Like at Astra, for example, last year I was one of the captains, and we had 65 people try out, and we could only take 27. So you just took the ones who had done the most networking beforehand? It's LinkedIn connections wins the day networking beforehand. LinkedIn Connections wins the day.

Yeah, it's all nepotism and social greasing. Business cards. Cocktail frisbee chatter. Soy steak dinners. Parlor talk. Is there a reasonable fear that if you take a year off that you will miss your chance to get onto the team you want to get onto? No, I don't think that would be, that's not a huge concern.

Juliet? Yes. When you sent in your petition, there was another thing, there's another part of your petition which said, the time off would allow him to properly train to help prevent future injuries, and since he would not be traveling every other weekend in the summer, it would allow us time to go on a non-ultltimate-related vacation, which we have never done, ever. We have never been on a trip together that wasn't for him to play Ultimate. Where would you want to go on vacation?

What Frisbee-less country would you go to? I don't know. I'd like to go to New England maybe or maybe Colorado. Frisbees are there. There are definitely frisbees in Colorado. Absolutely there are. Whoa, easy, Tom. Now he's salivating.

He'd love to go to Colorado. Toss that disc through that sweet, thin air. What's it like playing frisbee at high altitude, Tom? It adds about 15 yards to long throws. Holy molies. And you definitely get tired quicker, for sure. When you talk about a long throw, are you talking about a huck? Yep, absolutely.

Yeah, thanks, Wikipedia. It adds about 15 yards to my hucks, yeah. Yeah. That sounds like a heck of a huck. Colorado or New England you'd like to go to, but you'd like to not do any Frisbee, is what you're saying. Yeah. Well, so every quote-unquote vacation we've taken had been dictated by the location of a Frisbee tournament. And I would say that not even just time-wise, but also financially, that was a factor. We probably didn't weren't financially able to do that before, whereas that would no longer be a factor anymore because we've gotten big people jobs now.

I got you. But you but you're still you're still maintaining that this is not and not an irritant to you being being a Frisbee widow, that you really have no problem with it. You really have no problem with him playing at that level. You just want him to be safe and to even get better at the game. Exactly. I mean, I feel so a lot of times vacation time has had to go to him taking a day off here or there to go on a trip. I don't mind that he's going on those trips.

It would just be nice if some of that vacation time could be used for a vacation that doesn't involve me sleeping in a hotel room with six other people because that's what Frisbee trips become. Really, Tom? Is that what's going on? No, that's an exaggeration, Your Honor. Why don't you tell me the truth then? Just three other people?

Yeah. I would say two people do a bed is pretty standard. Maybe two people on the floor. Right. Now, if you go and, if you join La Cosa Nostra or whatever, and you go traveling with them, now that you're an adult, you're getting on in your years, will you be able to get your own hotel room for both of you? Or are you going to share hotel rooms because that's part of the deal?

I don't know. I'd be happy to get my own hotel room, especially now that I have a big person job. Whatever happens next, whatever ruling I make. You're 29, Tom. How old are you, Juliet? 26. 26. 26. You're too old to be sharing hotel rooms with other people.

Thank you. Okay. It's not spring break anymore, buddy. Is this just all about chasing some youth that you feel slipping through your fingers, sir? No. I legitimately love the sport. No, I legitimately love the sport.

Would you rather destroy your body getting as much youthful play time in now, or would you rather take care of your body and play for a much longer period of time? Because you appreciate that if you take care of your body properly, you will be able to play the sport you claim to love longer. You know, I think especially with the ACL, that was just dumb luck. And, you know, I don't want that to dictate, you know, my playing career. A gentleman makes his own luck, sir. You know, if you're out there running around on a field pivoting all the time, your knee has taken a lot of hurt. That's why you tore your ACL. It's not just because a malicious Frisbee imp touched your knee at random. Look at it this way.

As dumb as I am, and I am very dumb, I have never once torn my ACL. You're very lucky, dumb-dumb. my ACL. You're very lucky, dumb dumb. Tell me what your ultimate goal is with this. When you say you only have a few years left, is there something you want to achieve in ultimate? I mean, literally, it's your ultimate goal. Sure. There's a couple of things. A, I just, I want to play the sport as much as I can. But B, also, it's a great way to socialize and kind of make friends, especially in a new city. This is my first time moving to a new city as an adult. So it will be a great way to make friends and kind of build a social circle. So there's definitely that element.

But also just, you know, I love the sport and it's something I just enjoy doing so much. So there's not any particular world series of throwing things around that you're trying to make before you get drummed out of the conference? I would love to go to the national championships as a club team member. I've gone a couple of times with the college team, but the club series, which is open to anybody, is a little bit more prestigious. So that would be a long-term goal I definitely would like to reach. Juliet, what are you afraid will happen if he plays in June? What will happen if he plays in June?

I'm afraid that some other completely stroke of luck injury will happen to him and we'll be in the same position we were in this summer and the summer before, which is him with some debilitating injury that causes him a lot of pain and affects his mobility significantly for months at a time. And it's not, I mean, it's not fun to watch him be injured all the time. And even when he doesn't have these, you know, extreme injuries that require surgery, I can't remember a Frisbee season where Tom, like, felt great the whole time. He's always has something going on that affects his ability to either walk around or play and be happy. And I understand that Ultimate brings him a lot of joy, but

he's not happy when he's injured, obviously. He's frustrated that he can't play and his friends are playing. He wants to play with his team and he can't. So I think it ultimately, this hurts his, how much fun he can have at the sport because when he's hurt, he's not having fun. I would argue my disposition is pretty sunny. Yeah, I can hear you smiling when you say that. And does this have a financial impact on you guys? I mean, how's your Obamacare? Is it pretty good?

Is it gold? Is it silver at least? We got that UT coverage now, so we should be okay. Yeah, he's been covered for every one of these surgeries through various work insurance, so that's been fantastic. But it's affected us in other ways. He wasn't able to move down to Austin as soon as he was hoping to because he had surgery in Kansas City and had to recover there.

You know, when he had his Achilles tear, we lived on the third floor of an apartment complex that was a walk-up. So that was a challenge every day, just getting him up and down the stairs. Right. Right. And meanwhile, he's making he's making my premiums go up by throwing himself into the teeth of ultimate. Correct. Any chance he wants accident prone, Tom? Yes. Is that is that not true, Tom? Did I throw myself into danger to drive up your premiums? I don't know. Not specifically despite me.

I'm not in the pool i'm not in the kansas or kansas city pool um no i mean sure i mean as much as anybody going to the doctor you're making yourself a burden to juliet and others as you as you uh engage in this in this clearly what is a sport that is dangerous for you with concern for no one but yourself and your own quote unquote happiness certainly uh how do you respond to that sir the achilles how are you going to handle that handler because i have to say what i just said was pretty cutting the uh the achilles injury in particular was uh was a really big burden on Juliette. And, you know, I very much appreciate that she helped me out so much. And I took her to a nice dinner after I got out of that boot.

And I thanked her profusely so it didn't go unnoticed. And I would do the same for her if the tables were turned. So, yeah, I mean, it's definitely something to consider, but it's something that I can manage, I think, pretty effectively. All right, final argument to me, as the person who's going to decide your fate, whether or not you play Ultimate in June or not, why it is, since your sport is barely a sport,

you can play it for as long as you want, as long as you're physically fit. Arguably, if you took more time to recover and get in shape, you will be able to play it and enjoy it for longer. No one's going to drum you out of the league. Your final goal is not like getting into the Olympics. You only have a very short window of time in order to do it. And it pays you nothing, and it's selfish, and it's just for fun. Why should I allow you to play in June? Why is it important to you?

It's important to me for those reasons I outlined. Socially, it's a great way for me to engage in this new town that we moved to. for me to engage in this new town that we moved to. Also, I think the person that's most qualified to decide if I can play or not is a medical professional, not us. Both of us were history majors, so we don't know anything. A medical professional or an Internet podcaster judge. Yeah, absolutely. I shouldn't have been so presumptuous.

This is all outside of yourself. Sure. Talk about what's inside, Tom. Handle your feelings for once, not just a Frisbee. I love playing Ultimate. It brings me just a huge amount of joy. And it's one of my true passions. I love it.

I think about it all the time. I dream about it. It's one of my favorite things in the world other than Juliet. Juliet, answer me honestly. Is he really good at Ultimate or is he like the Rudy of Ultimate? He's good at Ultimate. I think co-ed handle is like the perfect spot for him if he's not seriously injured. Sounds like the perfect spot for me too.

Say it again. Co-ed handle is the perfect spot for him. Yeah. He's a very skilled handler. I wouldn't say he has what some would call an athletic build. I think that might have something to do with these injuries. He keeps sustaining. You send in some evidence here. Yes. Do you think that he could improve his physical stamina by losing weight? Is that what you're suggesting, Juliet? I definitely think that would help the situation. But he is in good shape when he attempts to be.

Tom, are you overweight? Are you happy with your body right now? Oh no, I'm definitely overweight. And that's something that I'm very aware of and constantly trying to battle with. How much would you like to lose? 40 pounds. Okay. I think I've heard everything I need to hear.

I am going to somehow get into my chambers without moving because I happen to be holding a Frisbee. So I'm just going to pivot or throw a thing over to a thing and then maybe I'll be relieved to go. I'll be right back with my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman pivots out of the courtroom. Tom, how are you feeling about your chances in this case? So-so. I'm nervous. I felt I made a heartfelt attempt at conveying what I was trying to get at. Juliet, do you think that Tom is being inconsiderate of his own body? Yes, absolutely. He loves Ultimate more than he loves not being injured. What are the consequences of that for the two of you? Well, I mean, day to day, it's just managing the latest injury.

Long term, I do have concerns that this could affect his long-term health. In his most recent injury, the ACL tear, he also damaged his meniscus and his knee, and that was not able to be surgically repaired. So that's something he's going to have to deal with knee pain from that for the rest of his life. So I am concerned that these are just going to keep piling up and he's going to, you know, fall apart like a crumbling robot eventually. What an apt metaphor, Juliet. Thank you.

How do you feel about your changes in the case? I actually think Tom did a really good job arguing his case. I'm a little concerned. I thought this was, at least from obviously from my perspective, I thought this was a no-brainer. But I think he made some good points. So I'm a little worried. Well, we'll see what the judge has to say when we come back in just a second. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network. Boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with made-in pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs, they're made-in, made-in. The Rohan duck, made-in, made-in. Riders of Rohan, duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop?

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Rules and restrictions apply. a b b e l dot com slash Hodgman rules and restrictions apply. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom. Ah, I twisted my knee as I was coming back, guys. I'm so sorry. Hang on. Just give me one second. Does anyone have a Vicodin? No. OK, fine. I have, on occasion in this courtroom, heard cases relating to sports-type dreams and aspirations, the ad astra fantasies of a man who wanted to become an Ironman triathlete to the dismay of his wife and the utter disinterest of his kids. And I have squashed those dreams mercilessly. Even the internet turned on me for having told that man to stop running. And that was because he had made a promise that he would to his wife before he decided to change his mind. You can go back and listen to that one as well, everybody, and decide whether or not I'm right or wrong, but I still think I'm right. A lot of the reason that people thought that I was

wrong, though, was that I do not understand sports, and I agree, I don't. I don't understand Tom's love of this completely arbitrary physical contest that gives him nothing in terms of reward other than pleasure and for which he gains nothing except the ongoing pleasure of doing it. That seems to me to be the easiest thing to stop doing because it's tiring. And your whole body seems to be telling you, Tom, please stop. Please stop it. Stop doing this to me. But it is another important precedent in this court that you cannot force someone to like something they don't like

or to stop liking something they do like. Tom, you have argued very plainly to me and very convincingly. This is just something you want to do. And there is no specific thing you want to get out of it other than to play it for as long as possible. And your concern is somewhat backwards because you are old, says you, and therefore you have to play as much now as you can before you can't play anymore. But of course, the catch-22 is the only way you will stop playing is if you are physically unable to do so. And you might hasten that time by playing more now than if you took care of yourself to recover and to train and to deal with the body that you're, to deal with the

decrepit body that you are more and more inhabiting as you get older and older, rather than pretending that you are the young man that you once were. All of those arguments that Juliet is making are very persuasive to me, but there is no more persuasive argument than the one you made, Tom, which is that this is a decision that should be left to a medical professional. I have no training in sports medicine. Juliette has no training in sports medicine. Juliette presented no hard evidence to support her case that you would be lessening your physical health

and continued happiness playing ultimate if you played in June. You mentioned that you have a physical therapist and you would like to defer to her judgment in terms of when you should start playing again. I think that in theory, that's not a bad idea so long as Juliet is involved in the assessment. That is to say, Juliet, do you trust this physical therapist? This is a brand new therapist. I really trusted his previous therapist, and I have not yet met this new therapist. So, here is what I am ordering. Tom, you should make hay while the sun shines.

Since you are 29 years old and almost dead. And therefore, you should play ultimate as soon as you can healthfully. That decision should be left to a trained medical professional. and that trained medical professional should be assessed by both you and Juliet and should receive from Juliet her full list of concerns with regard to your health. I also think that you should attempt to lose weight since you yourself feel that that's a priority for you. And it's going to be hard because you are not an active person right now because you are suffering from this injury. But getting in better shape now is going to reward you in many, many more ways than getting you back out onto the ultimate field sooner. And it'll probably make you a better and more

capable player and will speed recovery in the future. Don't you agree? Absolutely. So with the caveat that you must, A, invite Juliet to meet with your physical therapist so that she can discuss her concerns with that physical therapist and assess her or his responses. therapist and assess her or his responses. And once Juliet has signed off on the course of treatment and has full confidence that you, or once you both have full confidence in your physical therapist's ability to decide when you should move forward and the plan to keep you healthy as you move forward in your insane arbitrary sports pursuit. Then you may begin playing ultimate when that physical therapist says that it is okay, whether that be in this June, the following June,

or the following June, or the following June, or never. I have a feeling it's probably going to be this June. But you must also work concertedly to lose or at least not gain weight while you are, Work concertedly to lose or at least not gain weight while you are. No, you know what? Forget not gain weight. Lose weight, Tom. Do it. Yes, sir. You're going to feel better and you're going to increase the likelihood that you can recover faster.

And you're going to play better and you're going to be happier because this is what it's all about. Tom's happiness. That's the whole reason why we're here talking. Tom's happiness. That's the whole reason why we're here. Talking. And third, between now and June, no matter what happens, you're going to take some of your grown-up money from the University of Texas and stop throwing it at ultimate Frisbee posters and paraphernalia

and take your fiancé on a real vacation that does not involve sleeping in hotel rooms with weirdos who are not you or Frisbee or discs of any kind. I think New England sounds nice. I think Colorado sounds better because A, it's closer and B, you're going to really have to resist playing. you're going to really have to resist playing. If you fulfill those three requirements, meaningful weight loss, full consultation with Juliet in terms of your course of treatment

with the physical therapist, full confidence among both of you that the physical therapist is taking into full account all of your injuries and has a reasonable plan to treat and keep you healthy as you go forward in your pursuit, and you go on that vacation, then you may start playing Ultimate again when the physical therapist says it's okay,

as soon as June, if that is okay by your physical therapist. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Juliet, how do you feel? I think it's fair. I like the idea of meeting with the physical therapist, and I like the idea of going on vacation.

So I'll accept this ruling. Juliet, what's your vacation pick? Let's go to Vermont. Oh, Vermont. That sounds nice. Get yourself a nice warm pair of socks, or maybe you can go in the autumn and see the leaves changing. Tom, how do you feel both about the ruling and about Vermont? I'll go wherever Juliet wants to go on this vacation. It's her

vacation and I'm happy to go with her on it. I feel good about the ruling. I still, I'm definitely going to work hard and try to fulfill all those things and lose weight. That's been a huge battle for me for a long time. So it's nice to have even more motivation. When you go to Vermont, do you think that some of your ultimate skills will translate well to the field of apple picking? It's the most translatable skill I have. Then I'm impressed you got one of those grown-up jobs, as you said. Juliet, Tom, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you.

Thank you. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience,

one you have no choice but to embrace, because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-H. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there?

Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O.

Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Hey, Judge Hodgman. Ah! Ah!

Gosh, Jesse. You made me tear my Achilles ACL muscle open. What can I say, Judge Hodgman? It's just dumb luck. I'm dumb and you're unlucky. And you also interrupted my really deep devil stick practice that I was into. Hey, you want to hack later? Yeah, but first let's clear the docket. Okay, good, because I've got some froth to get to.

Here's something from Mary. How should my sisters and I give gifts to our mother? Eldest sister, Jammie, says we should each give our own gifts with no discussion beforehand. This usually results in our mother receiving three bouquets of flowers, or her getting one bouquet from Jammie, then no one else can give flowers, and Jammie looks like the best daughter by default. My twin sister Sarah believes that if one of us comes up with a gift idea, we should discuss it with the group so that we might all contribute. Jammie thinks this is too time consuming and dumb. It's hard to think of unique gifts to give our mom and other relatives each

year, and we all usually end up waiting until the last minute, adding to the problem. Judge Hodgman, what should we do? Should we discuss gift ideas beforehand, give separately? Should mom just get three bouquets and deal with it? I think you should call the government as soon as possible, because I do not believe that Jammie is your sister, nor do I believe that Jammie is actually of this earth. Here's why.

You and your twin sister have normal names. Mary and Sarah. Your older sister is named Jammie and also doesn't know how to give gifts. They also have a brother named Jif. My suspicion is that Jami is either an alien

or a time traveler or an interdimensional entity that has come into your life and is posing as human and has erased your memory such that you believe she has always been there. It's like a Doctor Who episode. Because if she were a normal human being,

she would have a normal name and she would know. You guys have to consult on the gifts that you're giving your mom so that you don't double up. And so maybe you can all give her one nice gift together where you just make sure that she's getting what she wants,

what should make her happy. And not be such a jerk about it, Jammie. So, Jammie, either go back to your own dimension and leave these humans alone, or if you're actually the human older sister of Mary and Sarah, don't be a jerk. Just consult with them and pick out a gift together. Or gifts together. You know what I'd send? A nice ham.

Or at least just switch it up and send a ham every once in a while. Well, the thing is that interdimensional entities cannot stand pork products of any kind. So that would be a good test as to whether or not Jammie is real or a gray. Oh, duly noted. Here's something from Brett. In 2007, I embarked on a seven-month cross-country trip with my girlfriend, Julia, now my wife, and our dog. Our worst disagreement ever occurred following a meal at the Silver Dollar Grill at the Wart Hotel in Jackson, Wyoming. No buzz marketing of weird hotels.

That's Wart, W-O-R-T, named after presumably like a wart, like a type of plant, like St. John's wort. Yeah, it could also mean a stage in beer making. Julia and I couldn't decide whether to split apple pie or chocolate lava cake. After a lot of back and forth, I was informed that I would be making the final decision. I excused myself from the table under the pretense of using the restroom. As I left the table, I pulled our server aside and informed her that Julia had decided what we would be having for dessert and was ready to order. Although I was proud of this gambit, Julia did not find it amusing. The next thing I know, we had skipped dessert, paid for dinner, and found ourselves stomping through the parking lot in a full-blown shouting match, which devolved into

dour silence. Things only improved when, in an act of contrition, I went back and bought both desserts to go. I ask for your ruling in future dessert decision makings. All right. I am someone who has no sweet tooth at all. I do have an alcohol molar, but I don't care for desserts of any kind. And so fighting over cake or pie only makes sense if it is happening in Paul F. Tompkins's head or else you're in the midst of a seven-month road trip, at which point I would think exhaustion would make anything worth fighting over, such as choice of radio station or podcast or style of breathing or being weird looking all the time. So I can appreciate how in this environment, your little prank that might have otherwise been sort of a funny joke between the two of you might lead to a shouting match and then dour disposition.

And so I guess my ruling is don't go on any more seven-month road trips. But my further ruling is this. Stop sharing dessert. Get your own desserts, guys. You're grown-ups, unless you're 15. In which case, stop taking road trips and go to school. That settles our docket cases for this week.

Our title this week was suggested by Mary Shannon Collins. Thank you, Mary Shannon. Thanks, Mary. You can suggest a title to us if you like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook or follow us on Twitter. Judge John Hodgman on Facebook or follow us on Twitter. And don't forget this podcast, supported in part by Eagle Heart, Paradise Rising, airing Thursdays at midnight on Adult Swim. It stars Chris Elliott, Maria Thayer, and Brett Gelman.

Season three follows U.S. Marshal Chris Monsanto on a quest to find his friend, prove his innocence in a ghastly death, and uncover the shocking truth behind the origins of the U.S. Marshal Service. It starts with Chris's partner dead, the victim of an unfortunate encounter with a wood chipper. Hysterical madness follows. Our show is edited by Mark McConville, produced by Julia Smith. If you have a case for the judge, go to MaximumFun.org slash J.J. Ho. the judge go to maximum fun.org slash JJ ho maximum fun.org slash JJ ho.

And you can submit it using the handy dandy form or submit it via email at Hodgman at maximum fun.org. I'll read it personally. Max fun con tickets go on sale the day after Thanksgiving, max fun con.com. Come play with us in the woods of Southern California. That's all I got. You got anything else, Judge Hodgman? I'm going to be in Seattle on November 22nd and San Francisco on November 23rd.

Seattle with John Roderick, friend of the show. Seattle, excuse me, San Francisco with Scott Simpson, friend of the world. Doesn't get much better than John Roderick and Scott Simpson. All details will be, as always, at johnhodgman.com slash tour. They're the final two shows that I'm giving this year outside of New York City. I would love to come and see. I would love to see any listeners or even non-listeners there. I promise you these two things, just to be perfectly clear.

One, at both shows, because it is a solo show, I will sing Roadrunner playing the ukulele. And two, I will be in the lobby afterward to meet and greet with you. Can't ask for much more than that. We'll talk to you next time. But somehow they will. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. This week's episode of Judge John Hodgman was recorded at the Creek in the Cave in Long Island City, one of New York's emerging premiere sites for new stand-up comedy and very good Mexican food, no matter what Bill Burr says. I am in the basement, home of Cave Comedy Radio. If you

don't live near Long Island City, you can enjoy the Creek in the Cave sound by looking up Cave Comedy Radio on your line and enjoying all of its fine podcasts. Marcus recorded this episode. Thanks, Marcus. Thank you, John. Hope to see you again in the future. Maximumfun.org Comedy and culture. Artist owned.

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