Judge John Hodgman - Rhapsody in Blue

Episode Date: January 16, 2013

Please note: explicit language in this episode! Eric and Elizabeth are a married couple who make their living doing performances together. They disagree on when it's necessary and appropriate to use curse words in art. Elizabeth objects to their use, and Eric thinks they can add necessary emphasis to his songwriting. Who is right, and who is wrong?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, Rhapsody in Blue. Eric and Elizabeth are a married couple who make their living doing performances together. Eric is a singer-songwriter and Elizabeth is a visual artist. They disagree on when it's necessary and appropriate to use curse words in art. Elizabeth objects to their use, but Eric thinks they can add necessary emphasis to his songwriting. Who is right and who is wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. I see you driving round town in a taxi to Arby's and I judge you. I guess the half Ironman race just wasn't enough. And I'm like, judge you and judge her too.

The Canadian pizza didn't make you much richer. Now, ain't that some mared? Back me up, Jesse. Yes. You need to go, ain't that some mared? Even just back you up like a, like, sort of agree with what you were saying. Like, back you up rhetorically. And there was no gray house.

I still wish you the best with the judge you and judge her too and swear them in. That was terrible. That was really hacky. It was really hacky, but it serves its purpose. Go ahead and swear them in, Jesse. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do.

I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that the only music he enjoys listening to is provided by a chorus of live barking dogs who are incapable of swearing? Yes, I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman? They can swear if you know their language. Fair enough. Fair enough. Eric and Elizabeth, I could actually hear you standing up when you were asked to stand. You may now sit. Thank you.

While those noises go far to lay testament to your truthfulness and lack of artifice, it is terrible for internet radio. So please do not stand up or sit down again. I was just trying to be respectful. Please do not stand up or sit down again. I was just trying to be respectful. Now, I apologize for the paraphrasing of a particular piece of popular culture, which was not only out of date, terribly performed and overall terribly hacky. But I did need to sing it or talk, sing it as I were, as as it were, because I believe that you guys, uh, were, my understanding from the case documents is you were raised in a, in a particular tradition, uh, that makes swearing uncomfortable to you. That's correct. Yes. Is that true also for you, Eric? Yes. Yeah. All right. And what,

may I ask what the tradition and just your family background or was there a particular religious or ethical tradition? Family, family background family background um it just wasn't something that was allowed in my household or either of our house we both we both grew up in um like in christian homes and um i think her family was a little stricter than mine was for an immediate summary judgment in your favor, which one of you will dare to name the particular piece of culture that I very badly paraphrased as I entered the courtroom? Well, I mean, forget you,

but is it... There you go, you win. Wow. That was probably one of the easiest summary judgments. There was no question that you were going to know the song unless you were raised in an extremely restrictive household and continue to live in the dirt with the lights off. You would have known the song. It was just a question.

I just was trying to get a sense of under what circumstances which one of you would say what needed to be said he's trying to swear well that's well i i'm not trying to do anything i have already succeeded in bullying you into swearing and therefore i find in your favor this is the sound of a gavel that is all but just because i like you guys i'm going to go ahead and hear the case anyway. Well, I'd first like to point out that the complainant was the one who just swore. Well,

that's not what my case is though. Well, that there is, there is a certain amount of fucking irony to that. I agree. Elizabeth, you bring, you bring,

you bring this case. What is the issue? You guys are, you guys are, are, uh, well, he is a musician. You are an artist. Together you perform.

Describe the performance. Eric plays piano and sings on stage. And next to him, I have my easel set up and I do a painting so that the audience can see the painting during the show. And because of that, Eric is the one with the mic and he's the one who speaks for the two of us, whereas I'm silent during the entire show. And because of that, Eric is the one with the mic and he's the one who speaks for the two of us, whereas I'm silent during the entire show. And so you are concerned that Eric is a potty mouth? The songs that he has, they don't actually have that much swearing in them, but everyone, I think I included some examples where he swears in songs in my evidence. But the thing that I'm concerned with is I would say about

50% of the shows that we play are in family friendly venues. And I'm worried that some of the things that he says in his lyrics could alienate potential fans. All right. Well, since we are talking about lyrics and songwriting, an area to which I am honestly a stranger, I thought it would be appropriate to bring in an expert witness to add testimony and insight to this particular case. Please welcome to this court expert witness, John Roderick of the Long Winters. Mr. Roderick, please rise and raise your right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?

I do. Very well. Hi, John. Your Honor. How are you? I'm well. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm so glad you were able to come in and weigh in.

You have been listening in through behind the Chinese screen that we have in the courtroom to hide our expert witnesses. I have. I've listened to the squeaky chairs. I've also listened to the songs, which are better than the squeaky chair sound. Thank you, sir.

Alright, easy. Please do not try to butter up the expert witness. Although he enjoys a good buttering. I was promised a good buttering when I came on the show. Well, we will get to the songs and all the evidence in a moment. But Elizabeth, so what's word specifically, or I should say, Eric, do you go out of your way to put swear words in your songs?

No, I simply think that there are times when in writing lyrics to express exactly what I feel like the song, like what my goal is for saying the song. I feel like sometimes a well-placed curse word is just the best thing you could say to get the point across. And sometimes the goal of the song is to ruin children. No, but. of the song is to ruin children? No. Is it true that you play in family-friendly environments quite a bit, like preschools, balloon parties? No, but we play oftentimes in all ages coffeehouses. We've played in churches a few times. Um,

we have, we're not really like, we're not a religious band. Um, but just, I think due to our upbringing and other things too, we just have connections of churches that have opened their doors to us. Um, and, uh, yeah, I mean, there's, we've played in places. I mean, tonight we have a show in a coffee shop where, um, it's in our hometown where we've had fans who bring their kids. And, yeah, so, yes, we do play. Yes is the answer. And, Elizabeth, you paint. What kind of paintings do you paint as this goes on?

Explicit paintings? I've done. Explicit sexy paintings? I've done children's. Stop. Sorry. Oh, listen to him go. Oh, wash your mouth out with bar soap, sir.

No, I've done children's book illustrations. And so the paintings that I do on stage are typically that kind of whimsical, bright colors, very family-friendly and safe paintings. Now, is this all a ruse that the two of you have cooked up together in order to get publicity for your, would you call it a band? Yeah, no, this is our full-time job at the moment. Yeah, we call ourselves a band. That's the most accurate thing. And so this would be just a scheme to get publicity for your band.

This whole thing is just a fake. It's a gold-durned fake, phony, bogus claim, isn't it? Wait, what is the question? Are you saying that we are only on the show to promote

our band? I am accusing you of that and I will remind you that you are under internet oath. Well, I will accusing you of that, and I will remind you that you are under internet oath. Well, I will remind you, sir, that we have not said the name of the band yet, nor do we have any plans to for fear of taking advantage of the course. Being accused of buzz marketing. Right, which of course we are not here to do at all. I will take that as a sign of your good faith. The name of the band is pocket vinyl because I will only rule in this case with John Roderick's help.

Uh, I can only rule by being familiar with your work and making the listeners familiar with your work to some degree. Uh, I, I am going to say to you now that this is a, a not, I,

I will be playing clips from your song in the courtroom as evidence. You have provided them as evidence. You say not to buzz market yourself. Fine. But I will be playing those songs. And the only way I'll protect this court from the buzz marketing edict is that I, I and John,

I will invite you to be candid in your assessment of the song and its effectiveness. Do you understand what I'm saying? I believe so. Yes. Now, what sort of words do you accuse your husband, Elizabeth, of saying in his songs? Dadburn? Consign? Dagnabbit?

Jesus H. Lice? um no i think just the worst one that he does is um the word dick with reference to to penises yes correct okay john roderick do you have an opinion with regard in a general sense with regard to when uh when a artist should work blue and when an artist should not work blue personally i have very few swear words in my own music and i find that um that unless a swear word is incredibly judiciously placed it has the effect of jettisoning you from the world of the song uh and so i do have a couple of usages of the word damn but but hardly any bluer than that um i would never personally say dick in a song or in your life that is and i hardly ever say dick personally unless it's a

unless i'm using the imperative but uh but that but but there are also great songs that have swear words in them so i'm not opposed to them i do not come from a christian songwriting tradition but i just personally have have uh have avoided using them and it isn't because of kids and it isn't because of uh it it isn't because of, uh, it isn't for moral reasons. It's just that I find that the songs are not like something that you shout at someone in traffic. They are,

they're private worlds and small worlds. Except for the shout songs of Tom waits. Did you, you got that album, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

he did a whole, he did a whole, he did a whole Shouting in Traffic album. Some artists can swear up and down. For instance, I mean, I don't object when Eminem swears. Why not? Would that not serve the similar effect of taking you out, of the jettisoning you from the song? of taking you out of the jettisoning you from the song? No, because those songs are describing a street world,

a world in which swear words are the cultural currency. And without giving too much away, having listened to the pocket vinyl songs, they are not describing a street world. They're describing the hard streets of coffee shops in Connecticut. The harsh reality

of a married Christian couple, one of whom is singing and the other is painting children's illustrations behind him in a coffee shop. Which does not, it does not strike me as needing a, you know, like you don't need to really create a verite.

All right. Well, since you, since you, since you provided your songs as evidence, I think we shall get right to it. And I'd like to warn any sensitive people in the audience, you've already heard most of the worst words that you could hear in these songs. But this if you're very sensitive, or if you have children, as always, please pull over, let your children out of the car, and then drive on before you begin. of the car and then drive on before you begin listening again.

So let's go to the first song here, which is called Quiet Epiphany. And we are going to, the way this is going to work is we're going to listen to the relevant portion of the song. You should know that John Roderick and I have both heard the songs in their entirety. So here we go. Here we go. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Did I just hear what I thought I heard?

John Rock, did you hear that too? You don't think with your head, you think with your dick. That's exactly, oh my gosh. That's the line. I thought it was a beautiful song. You can really hear the painting. Although it's inaptly named, it is

not a quiet epiphany at all. It's quite a loud swelling epiphany. Yeah, so, John Roderick, what's your take on this song? First of all, is it a good song? Second of all, is it a good song? Second of all, is it made better by the use of the word dick?

I liked the song very much. I feel like another pass might be taken in editing the drums. But that is not the issue that is on the table. Did you play the drums, sir? No, I did not front of mind did yeah we could we could tighten the drums up a little bit I also thought there was a little bit too much impasto

too much impasto I felt I liked the tune when I when Elizabeth first submitted it and I saw that the word dick was the word in question I assumed that you lyrically referred to someone as a dick or you said that they were being a dick or something like that. And my instinct was that

that was going to be a lyrical choice that maybe I could accept. But you are actually, when you say you don't think with your head, you think with your dick you're really you are really putting a brain in a dick in this song well can I explain myself with the song? the author is dead, I'm sorry, this is a critique when the lyric passed by I had no choice

as the listener but to imagine a swollen penis I would put that on you sir i'm afraid not i'm afraid not you are accusing someone of thinking with their dick which is to say that they are that their dick is making their decisions for them yes and that is that's the point of the song though sure that the whole see the the whole reason about the song is that i think that there are a lot of um like if you focus on mainstream pop songs in general uh that talk and use the word love when really they just mean sex right and that bothers me and using the word love to refer to sex is using figurative

language which you might also try when referring to the dick yes but see that's the point is that without that line it wouldn't have driven the point, is that without that line, it wouldn't have driven the point home. The whole point of the song, as a whole, at least... That phrase right there, driving the point home, I think it is you, sir,

who has a little bit of a dick on the brain. Who is envisioning a swollen penis, yes. Elizabeth, let me ask you a question. Yes. So you're in the coffee shop, the all-ages coffee shop, and it's 2 o'clock in the afternoon or whatever.

Like, just crawling with kids. There's probably a cupcake birthday party. You are painting teddy bears. Right. And your husband is up there, and he's swinging away at this piano and you're painting. Do you paint something different each time just as it moves you or do you have an idea when you sit or stand rather and paint?

Like how do you plan it out? I do paint something different each time and I used to paint spontaneously, but lately I've been planning out my paintings more. And so when your husband then sings, you don't think with your head, you think with your dick, do you paint a picture of a record scratching at that point? Does it affect your performance? It does make me, when I know that there's children in the audience, and I know that he's nearing that part, there have been times where he censors himself which i appreciate but as he nears the points in those songs i am cringing inside and i'm trying to

figure out a way of getting around what's about to happen and how do you get around you hide behind your easel do you turn to the audience do you turn your audience and make like i'm sorry face to totally undercut the song? Do you just pretend it's not happening? Sometimes I pretend it's not happening. Sometimes I look over at Eric and try to catch his eye to remind him that he's supposed to be censoring himself. And do you guys have a hard and fast rule about when to censor or when not to censor, Eric? I mean, I usually, you know, if we're playing at some dive bar and starting a show at midnight, I mean, it's usually just a bunch of adults, 21 plus.

And I will say that I do like censor myself. I either will not play those songs with the words in them or I'll change the words to them when I know that there is children around. What were you saying? So if you don't think with your head you think with your penis is that what you sing no uh i know you love to say the word penis that's i have been on record saying that just to drive the point home well obviously but obviously whatever you change it to what do you change it to quickly um sometimes like i'll change i'll like

change the line like uh um you know you don't think with your head it just doesn't stick uh i think is one i usually go to you're gonna preserve something like that you're gonna pull a forget you you're gonna preserve the rhyme and the cadence or whatever yes right okay all right and so but obviously you're not censoring yourself enough or else this conflict wouldn't be happening. So is it the case that sometimes you look at in that audience and you see those kids and you're just like, I'm going to sing this Dick song. I cannot be held back.

No, there have been a few times where he's forgotten and, and we sell our albums. and and we sell our albums so even if we play a show to a family-friendly audience and kids love us and then they convince their parents to buy them an album we we're selling them songs that have these words on them we thought this was all going to be waltzing matilda and sea shanties and kids songs but it turns out this guy's having a quiet epiphany i have though at times like if you know parents buying it for a kid um i i have told them like hey just so you know uh i think it's on the the album that that song is on um i've said like yeah tracks one and five do have some words that

that you might not be appropriate but the rest of it is safe so i do my best to go out of the way to try to warn those parents ahead of time if they do, in fact, buy an album. But Elizabeth, Elizabeth, your concern here is not just merely the performance in front of children, because you did send in evidence of some some very, very pretty pictures of children at the events that you've done that you've put up on your public Facebook page, which, frankly, I find more disturbing than any swear word, but that's fine. I'm sure all of their parents are happy with that. We have them sign release forms. Do you really? For those photos. Yes, we do. Right. Well, it's an interesting choice because not only are you playing for audiences that have children in them. And you are, you are so concerned about, um, uh, uh,

the, the lyrics of the songs to the point that you feel uncomfortable even selling them a CD. And yet putting up the pictures of kids at your shows would give one the reasonable impression that you are performing kids shows. Why are you putting up those pictures of children? That's to you. Well, I did.

We're not, we don't, we don't advertise ourselves. I guess we're just recording photographic evidence of our shows and the paintings that I do. I mean, I haven't thought about whether it's children in the pictures or not. Excuse me, sir. You appreciate that there is a discord to some degree between the vibe that whether it's children in the pictures or not. I will say that... Excuse me, sir. You appreciate that there is a discord to some degree between the vibe that you're giving off by putting up on Facebook pictures of kids at your shows,

by playing in kid-friendly places, by playing to audiences with kids, by doing illustrations, which, as you say, have a very kid-friendly vibe to them, and they're really cute and beautiful, by the way. I can't play them on the fake internet radio, but they're great. Do you know what I mean? then this material this material which is i wouldn't say you know heavily offensive and by any stretch of the imagination but it's but it's

clearly an adult song about adults right it's not it's it's a it's kind of it's emotionally pretty heavy right yes all right on song one here final your final verdict, keep Dick in or does the Dick stick? Okay, hold on. My feeling kind of echoes everybody's comments, which is that the problem that a child might have with this song is not that the word Dick is in it, but that it is dealing with adult themes and is adult music. And I think that the danger is not that the word dick is going to scald their ears, but that if a child really is paying attention to the lyrics of the music, if the child is paying close enough attention to hear the word dick, they are also hearing an adult talk about love or talk about adult experiences in candid language that is maybe too sophisticated for an eight-year-old. You know, no eight-year-old wants

to go to a show where someone is painting beautiful paintings of fish and then be told that love isn't real and that being an adult is a shitstorm. Well, that's not what the song says. That's what all your music says, sir. Well, let's move on. I'll have order, sir. I object. I'll have order. You cannot curate your audience's response to your songs.

I'll have order. You cannot curate your audience's response to your songs. Sir, you have said in response to your wife's complaint that you have been trained to write songs as if your parents were dead. Does that amount to a confession that you've murdered your parents? No, I had a uh i had not why not i have their phone number if you'd like to give them a ring pull them up no no no i believe look i believed you that you weren't buzz marketing your band you're clearly standing up and sitting down all the time so i you have you have already shown tremendous good faith but what do you mean by saying that because i think that's a powerful, a powerful creative statement. I got that from a college professor of mine who I took a creative writing class with him.

And he we were writing poems at the time, actually. And he just said somehow we got into a conversation about what's appropriate and certain things and stuff. somehow we got into a conversation about what's appropriate and certain things and stuff. And he encouraged us to write as if your parents are dead, meaning to not worry about what like someone might think, like if you're afraid of, you know, offending your parent, which I think, we all kind of think about what our parents think of us and our art or something. And so he was simply to encourage us to write as if, you know, you're free and there's no one like that. You just want to express what you want to express in the way that you should express it. And I just, I, that rung true, I guess, within me. And I just thought it was a

good thing to try to lead my own music by. And Elizabeth, do you paint as though your parents were dead? I don't think I have a reason to. Were dead. I don't think I have a reason to. Do you feel, do you feel that your paint, that your parents would be entirely comfortable with every painting that you make? No.

And I'm only saying that because I have had times where my parents had been very critical of my art. Critical. Like you, you, you did, you did a bad job. You did a bad job painting that that bear or

whatever or critical like i don't think you should have gone there more critical like i don't think you should have gone there but not particularly for moral reasons more along the lines of it's not something that they would want to hang in their own home good well as long as you didn't say yes i think my parents would be comfortable with everything i painted. Well, as long as you didn't say, yes, I think my parents would be comfortable with everything I painted. I'm fine. As long as you're willing, as long as the answer is an unequivocal, no, they wouldn't love everything I do. Then you're, then you're doing okay. As far as I'm concerned, let's move on to the second song called the buttercup. Is that what you also have on your LP player, John Roderick? Yes. The buttercup. The Buttercup. And I understand that the harsh word comes at second 42. I know I have low self-esteem, but I'm confident in her it seems, oh yeah.

She's my buttercup, she's my little tea leaf, and I'm played the whole song there. There are three reasons for that. First and foremost, it's short. Second, I like it. Third, I like it because it's short. And then fourth,

I really like it. I think that's a really good song. And you notice I was judiciously quiet with regard to quiet epiphany. Because I agree with everything that John Roderick said. To me, in that song, you don't think with your head, you think with your dick. That feels like kind of an embarrassing cliche to me, as does the name Quiet Epiphany. I don't like that at all. Sorry, friend. That's just my honest opinion. You take it for what it's worth. Throw it away. Enjoy it. Would you like me to judge some of your books right now? You need to stop.

I'm sorry. No, thank you, sir. I apologize. I'm out of order. No, no, no, no. It's absolutely fine. I mean, you already lost the summary judgment. You're talking to me from the grave.

That doesn't matter to me. There's nothing he can do. Thank you for your honesty i appreciate honest feedback no no i'm just saying from from a right i thought i thought the musically i liked it from from a writerly point of view when i tuned into those lyrics that felt that felt a little i dare say a little high school to me and and maybe to me only, but, but the buttercup, this song, I thought great on a song. And when damn came around, I did not flinch. I did not cringe.

I did not go. I was like, yeah, that's exactly the word that needs to be there. John Roderick. Do you agree or disagree with me? I agree. I,

I think it's a great song. And I think that damn is not out of place. I felt the word damn, and maybe it's because we're listening for the word damn, but I felt the word damn sung a little bit emphatically so that I felt like maybe it was, maybe that something is revealed about your marriage that you are intentionally swearing in your songs and saying them a little bit louder just to annoy and maybe titillate your wife. But if that song played on the radio, I would not say, what is that misplaced damn doing?

Yeah. It perfectly fits with the song. It does not read as a swear word. No. And let's be honest. It's one of the least offensive fucking swear words of all time. That is fucking true. All right.

Now, so that one, I think that one we can, you know, it's like, here's the thing. Would you not say, John Roderick, that it's kind of like the supreme court feels about pornography you know when you see it like pornography you know it's an appropriate dick when you hear it right although i will say if you played that song and just left the word damn out there you you would not miss it either i'm not sure i would it is i'm not sure i would agree i mean it it it feels like it belongs there but i think you could you could sing that song without without replacing it like syllabically you could just you just sing without the word damn and it would still be the song would stand you could you could replace it syllabically like you could replace it for example with flan flan yeah a flan good drink

but everyone hates flan it's more profane than damn you could replace it with with goldern or stick you could put stick in there instead all right now john roderick you really wanted to get to this song and so do i the song is song is called I Once Kissed a Woman Simply for Her Lips. It's by Pocket Vinyl. They're burning up the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Let's give it a spin. A curious fortune that's way beyond price. A treasure that we have all bastardized. And I apologize greatly to those I've made pissed. Oh, to those I've betrayed with a kiss. Betrayed with a kiss Okay, there we go.

This time I will invite you, Eric, the songwriter, to explain in a very short, pricey, what this song is all about. There was a time when I had kissed a girl and it felt very empty. And because it was after I had been in love with someone else, and especially now that I'm in love and in a great marriage, I was thinking about and contemplating about that difference between when I kiss my wife and all the love that's behind that and when you just kiss someone because they're there and how just empty that feels, and it's just only the physical aspect and how there's nothing behind it.

And to me in my life life that was a big difference and so the song was just kind of basically about that difference and dissecting and analyzing the difference between those two feelings i sense a certain amount of kind of mournful shame and apology in this song would that be inaccurate uh no that that's very accurate right so when completely appropriate for an eight-year-old listener oh yeah i will say okay these examples i usually stay away from them if like i don't play them live during shows that kids are i mean but you have for the most well yes for the most part but but yes exactly i'm not sure how many children would would would would grok a song about kissing a girl without being in love with her and you mentioned that you write as though your parents were dead,

but in this case, you seem to be writing as if your wife is standing right behind you painting. I actually want to reassure her right before we started dating. Oh, okay. Oh, very nice.

Very romantic. What do you think about this song? Elizabeth is a good song. I don't like it. Okay. Tell me why I like this. This, tell me why. I like this. This is news to me. I will have order,

or you will suffer double loss. I do not mind double jeopardizing the summary judgment. I will try you twice. John Roderick, would you ask Elizabeth how she feels, what she does not like about this song?

Elizabeth, you can tell me just between the two of us. What is it about this song you don't like? Well, I guess it's just between the two of us. Yeah. Don't really like the sound of it, I guess. And that's a big part of a song. Yeah. Well, I mean, actually, I'm more of a lyrical person.

Like when I listen to music, I listen to lyrics more than anything. But for this one, I actually were single. Don't like the sound of it. And it's slow and mournful. So we're having a good show. And then he plays this song. It can bring the show down. Sure.

It's a downer. Let's let's be honest. It's almost seven minutes long and it's about 60 beats per minute. And do the lyrics bother you? Do the lyrics let's set aside the two words in question here, which is bastardized and pissed.

Let's put them out of the question. Do all of the other lyrics tell a story that bothers you? I will remind you, you are under fake internet oath. I would say, yes, it does bother me. But at the same time, there's a voice in my head saying that this message from my husband is a good one. It's something that I should be happy about. And so in that way, I'm not sure why the lyrics bother me, but they do. That's fine. That's a perfectly

valid and honest response. John Roderick, let's get to the nut of the issue, so to speak. Yeah, right. Let's thrust at the nut of the issue. The first word, bastardized, is not a swear word, Elizabeth. it is a valid word in the english language that means to degrade something okay that one actually doesn't bother me as much as the other one yeah and although it has the word bastard in it it is now passed into the lexicon and is a you could use that word you could stand in front of the pope and say you've bastardized the christian church you heretic you false prophet and bastardized would not be the thing he was mad at

uh and the word pissed i find is just not a not a word it is not a lyric it is not a lyrical word and that the the word the word lyrical i think is the thing that we should maybe spend a little time with because for lyrics to be lyrical, they have to have, I think, a kind of beauty to them. And you are not a punk rock artist. And you are not standing athwart the carcass of the man and talking about how you've, how pissed you are. Well, wait a minute. They are Christians. So in a sense they are.

But anyway, pissed is just, it's another one of those words that just takes you out of the song. I think particularly like a long mournful dirge like this one pissed. It just sounds like a word that belongs in a different song. It sounds like a, that you would use if you were writing a song about feeling pissed, it just sounds like a word that belongs in a different song. It sounds like a, that you would use if you were writing a song about feeling pissed, which this isn't really a song about.

And I think that it's not, it's not a very good sounding word. And I think that the construction, what is the, what is the lyric, Eric? You may speak now, speak the lyric, starting with the one that leads up to bastardized and all the way through to pissed, please. I apologize greatly for those. I've made pissed, which grammatically...

It's very awkward. It is. That's terrible. I apologize greatly for those. Is that the passive? No, it's not the passive voice. I apologize. It's the... I wish I had my grammar book here. I'd like to bring a piece of evidence to the courtroom called a creative license.

You may not, you may not. No, sir. You're right now. You stand in this court with your creative license in the balance. You are this, you're going to, you're in the, in the, in the department of creative licensing. You are, you are in the Department of Creative Licensing. You are submitting your license for renewal, and we may make you take the test again. Technically, my wife submitted it for me. And then what's the lyric with bastardized?

Treasure that we have all bastardized. Elizabeth knows it better than you do, sir. She doesn't even like the song. The treasure, but she loves him. John Roderick, that's the thing. That's adorable. The treasure, Elizabeth, say it for me again. The treasure.

The treasure which we have all bastardized. The treasure which we have all bastardized. It's also very awkward. I would cut the whole thing. Not because, again, not because of the harsh content. I think bastardized in this context, again, feels very high school-y to me. Like, I'm going to use this big word here when it's not really earned or necessary. And I'm not sure that you can bastardize a treasure.

Can you do that, John Roderick? Does that make sense? I suppose. Yeah, I think you can bastardize a treasure, but I don't think, I think you would use that instead of which. Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely. You know what I mean? It's the treasure that we all bastardize.

Excuse me, John Roderick and I are speaking now, sir. Which would have to follow a comma? The treasure, comma, which we have all bastardized hang on even that i want to look i want to go to mariam webster here and just look up bastardized really quickly can i uh speak yeah sure just mute your microphone and then you can talk all right all right let me just speak a little bit in my defense. Excuse me, sir. Wait until I was going to allow it. I was going to allow your objection.

And then you just started talking. I know. I don't know whether to allow it. You have bastardized this whole treasuring the process. Go ahead. You may. I'm looking it up now i agree with what you guys are talking about with uh in terms of the harshness of the language and as well as with quiet epiphany and the word dick

uh those were both intentional um for me when i was writing these songs both about kind of like you know close to home uh emotional honest subjects subjects. I wanted to phrase it in a way, and it helps me, I guess, feel it more in a way each time I sing the song when it's like the bluntness of it, which I agree that usually is not used in a more poetic form. But the bluntness of it, in my opinion, helps stress the point that I'm trying to make in each song. And so even though those songs aren't very – the words, I'm sorry, aren't very lyrical, such as pissed and dick and stuff, using them in the songs helps me, at least in my opinion, stress the point that each song is trying to make. Yeah, I don't think anyone is in argument with you there, sir. No, not at all.

It's clear that you used those words intentionally and not accidentally. Yeah, you wrote them down ahead of time, so I can only imagine you chose them. I'm going to let that serve as your final statement, Eric. Elizabeth, is there anything else you'd like to add before John Roderick and I return to chambers to hash this out? I did want to say before that I actually brought this case to you because I know that in your own podcast, you typically edit yourself. And since this is a form of art, I guess I was just curious about why and what your motivation was for editing yourself in this podcast. In what way do I edit myself, in your opinion, Elizabeth? Oh, I just, what was, we were listening to an episode recently

where something was bleeped out. And there was the sound that went, you said something on a... And I mean, just typically, you don't usually have coarse language in this podcast. All right. I have heard everything that I need to hear. I've certainly heard enough of that microphone moving around. I'm going into my chambers and I will return in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Elizabeth, how are you feeling right now? I'm feeling great. This has been a really fun discussion. You're just getting a kick out of talking about how bad your husband's songs are? No, I'm enjoying all the different points of view that are being brought about the songs. Eric, how are you feeling? I'm feeling, I don't feel that he won't find in my favor. However, I feel like he's yelling at me a bit unfairly. And I mean, I still had some points I wanted to make, but I don't know.

Here we are. You did make a lot of points. I did. I tried to thrust him best I could into the courtroom. You need to stop that. That is not odd. John Roderick, you're not a judge. If you were, how would you decide in this case?

Well, it seems like we're talking about the wrong issue. It feels to me like the two of them want to do their art together, which is noble and cute and adorable, but they're making very different art. Her art is age appropriate for almost anybody. It is, they're super cute illustrations. I would hang one of her paintings in my daughter's room. He is making adult music for adults and whether or not you know you uh whether you're not you like the use of the word pissed he's he's justified as a songwriter in using whatever he whatever words he wants to use yeah and i don't think he's he makes any claim that his music is for children so the the question i guess is why are they trying to collaborate other than that they like each other and they want their they want to work together their her art and his songs do

not resemble each other they don't belong with each other if she designed the cover art to his record it would be creatively jarring you would buy a thing that had like some some fish on it and some birds and you would be like this is adorable and then it's a guy pouring his heart out uh on the album and you'd be like what the fuck are these people trying to do so i really feel like i feel like it's the wrong question he should be able to to uh to swear in his songs because he has strong feelings and he's making big boy music and she should make

her beautiful art and sell it some other way and I think they would both be more successful and creatively gratified. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. Well, you know, I was listening from my chambers

and I have to say that John Roderick, not surprisingly in the least, speaks true wisdom and really gets at an issue that I began to investigate but didn't really follow through on. So thank you, John. Oh, my pleasure. And I think I agree with you that these two should never be allowed to perform together again. They should channel all this energy they have into making sweet love to each other at night after she gets back from the art fair and he gets back from the shitty bleach smelling club where he played his sad bastard music.

They should come home and say, how are you? I'm fine. How are you? Take your clothes off. I, I, uh, I'm inclined to,

I'm inclined to agree with the expert witness. I have to say, um, and, and I think that it is an elegant solution to a problem, uh, that, uh,

that otherwise, uh, would resolve only in acrimony and self-censorship. Um, otherwise would resolve only in acrimony and self-censorship. The idea of you guys playing together in your band is very charming indeed. And indeed, John Roderick and I have also coincidentally performed in an environment where a painter was doing a live painting during the performance. And there is something kind of magical about it, unless you would disagree, John Roderick. No, but of course, he was painting Chithulu, bringing a rain of blood to the end of the

world while we were performing. So it was topically appropriate. Yes, the two aspects, or I should say all three aspects, you, me, and this guy, I think were tonally attuned. And this guy, I should say, is named Joe Padgett, and he's a great artist in Tucson, Arizona, who does murals. So that idea is very charming, but it is true that you guys are doing very disparate kinds of art. And the focus on these particular words, I think, speaks to a larger issue of the venues in which you are playing, what's appropriate for each, and how the two pieces of art work together. So while obviously I have an immediate summary judgment already made in favor of Elizabeth, I do have to say for in the interest of freedom of expression of all kinds,

freedom of expression of all kinds that whether whether Eric takes my advice or John's advice regarding the awkwardness of the lyrics or the choice of words, that's part I honor John Roderick's wisdom, which is to say, I don't want to split you guys up as a performing duo. decide to perform together, you need to evaluate the venue and you need to collaborate on the set list and you need to make sure that this is going to be enjoyable and not discordant for the audience. And generally speaking, I don't think unless you are committed to creating, unless you're committed to creating art for kids, you should not allow kids into your room. This is the sound of the gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. How are you feeling, Elizabeth?

That's a very tough... Well, I mean, the judge didn't say that we have to break up our act but it implied that and i know that's something that's not possible for us right now because we have the next four months planned out we're we're going to be performing practically every night together well that's not exactly what that's not exactly what the judge ordered no i, I guess, I guess it did make me, it is making me think more about, um, the subject matter that I'm painting. And actually late over the past week, I have been reconsidering what I paint and maybe I shouldn't be focusing so

much on cutesy children's paintings when we have the, the, um, 21 plus gigs and do something that's more appropriate for those shows at least you know a friend of ours ted haig aka dr cocktail is uh an illustrator and drew all of the dicks for the movie super bad we could put you oh yeah did he really jesse i didn't know yes he did he really, Jesse? Yes, he did. He really did. So hilarious.

Eric, how are you feeling? I mean, I guess I'm confused as to if there's any type of actual like thing we have to do or change other than I guess

did I win? I guess I admit I'm a little confused. I kind of feel like the judge asked us to break up our livelihood, like what we do. I think the judge asked you to reconsider the aims of your performances together and that you consider performing material that's not appropriate for that venue in a different context let me come in and clarify uh even though your wife won the immediate summary judgment i did rule against her she cannot prevent you from writing songs with certain words i encourage you to look at the words that you're using and make sure that they are effective and necessary to the song.

And I don't think you could have gotten any better feedback and thoughtful advice, frankly, to that point than from John Roderick, one of the great lyricists of our time. I would say that you are clearly, you guys are not, I think John is absolutely right that there is a discord between the work that you're doing and a discord between where you are doing this work together. And that needs to be solved if indeed you're going to continue to do this band together. I'm not suggesting you break up, but you are going to have to make a case creatively for why it is necessary for you both to be on stage at the same time. Very few people in the world are going to look at your double act and say it is necessary for them to be on stage at the same time. I think more people will say, why are they on the stage at the same time? And therefore, I think you both creatively need to work both. You both need to work creatively to make sure

that the work that you're doing is in tune with itself. And you also need to work as a team to make sure that you are creating a set that is appropriate for the venue in which you are performing. And I do think that when you're performing in front of kids, it's not an issue of using semi-soft, hard language. It's an issue of playing songs that are not going to freak kids out and make them cry and feel weird about themselves. Okay. So I hope that that's perfectly clear. I hope that you're right. I can tell that you're very glad that you won, but I think that you both have work that you need perfectly clear. I hope that you're right. I can tell that you're very glad that you won, but I think that you both have work that you need to do.

Elizabeth, did you design the logo for Pocket Vinyl on this website here? Yes, any art that you see was drawn by me. Well, I would say that is awesome. I love the dogs and cats smoking pipes. I love that typography. And I think that that's definitely already much more in line with the music that I was hearing. I know the paintings that I sent you, those are a little bit older. They're maybe from last year.

And the paintings that I've been doing now have that kind of the subject matter that you see in that the album cover is a lot more what I'm doing on stage now. Right. Because this is beautiful. This is beautiful line illustration of dogs and cats smoking pipes, which is great always. Not appropriate for kids. No, kids love dogs and cats smoking pipes. Are you kidding me? All right. I think I understand now, Judge. Thank you for clarifying.

Okay, but I'm glad you had another chance to speak. John Roderick, did you have anything? Do you feel that I'm just or I should be more harsh? No, I do. And I wanted to say that in no way did I mean that you need to immediately stop working together. But as the judge so aptly put it, it should be clear to the audience why your work supports and enhances one another's work more than just that you're married and that you love each other like the the painting and the music need to go together in some way even if even if the point you're trying to make is this music and this art do not go together if that's the point that you're trying to make that should be clearer i don't think that's the point that you're trying to make, that should be clearer. I don't think that is the point you're trying to make. Yeah, no.

But just the fact that your wife is a great artist and you are a songwriter and you are married and in love with one another is not enough reason to share a stage because you're asking the audience to draw connections between the two works that it doesn't seem to me you have thought all the way through. I would say you're probably right about that just because we started doing this because we liked each other. Yeah. And it's a very nice idea. And you could pursue it somewhere that maybe you're making something together that no one had thought of before. Maybe a year or two from now, your painting and his songs together are truly a third thing. But right now, they are two things on stage sharing a space that it's unclear what you're trying to accomplish. No band needs a tambourine player.

Do you know what I mean? Howard Jones in the 1980s pop songwriter Howard Jones performed on stage with a mime. Don't do that. Elizabeth, Eric, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you very much. Have fun. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org.

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That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware dot com. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun

or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I Hmm. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay.

If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself.

A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Judge Hodgman, it looks like you're, are you making a painting there? Well, I dabble, you know. Some lively little trees, some fluffy clouds, why not? It looks like John Roderick's over there tuning up his guitar. Are you guys starting a band? Yeah, we're starting a band. But I'm not going to be painting in the band. This is just my hobby.

The way we're going to perform is John Roderick is going to play guitar, and I'm just going to do Sudoku off to the side. Can I play tambourine? You can. Most of my guitar playing is just going to be me tuning. Hey, listen, before we become, you know, international superstars. Presumably Grammy award winning singer songwriter types.

Let's clear the docket, shall we? Please. Tabitha writes, my friend Daryl and I enjoy going to movies together and both agree that it is okay to bring in a small snack instead of purchasing the movie theater's offerings. However, we recently hit an impasse when Daryl wanted to bring in some teriyaki chicken and rice takeout. I feel like one should be sensitive to one's movie-going peers

and not bring in food that has a strong odor. But Daryl feels like it's his right to eat whatever food he wants and the people around us can just get over it. Judge Hodgman, what do you think? Daryl could not be more wrong. Do you disagree, John Roderick? Absolutely not. Daryl's attitude that he should be able to do whatever he wants and people around him, however inconvenienced, should just get over it is an attitude worth a kick in the ass. Yeah, that's like, what is he, a Ron Paul supporter? What is he, a libertarian? Yeah, is he a libertarian that he should just be able to do,

eat whatever teriyaki chicken he wants and not pay any taxes? Why doesn't he just urinate on the screen? Yeah, yeah, he wants to watch the movie with his dick in his hand. Everybody else should just get over it. I'm going to give this guy a pounding he wouldn't believe. I'm sorry that I offended all those Ron Paul supporters. This podcast

hasn't even been put on the internet air, and I'm already getting emails. They've sensed another one has turned. No, you know, look, just as you do not shout fire in a crowded theater, so you also respect civilization by not eating your disgusting teriyaki in the dark, which would be bad enough if you were doing it by yourself. But even worse if you're doing it in a movie theater, which, by the way, people have to clean that are not you. Now, am I a bit of a scofflaw when it comes to bringing in food from outside?

Actually, no, I always follow the rules no matter what. But I don't think it's terrible for someone to bring in a snack from outside, a small snack that is in the same wheelhouse as what is sold in the theater, because that markup is ridiculous. Right, John Roderick? snack that is in the same wheelhouse as what is sold in the theater because that markup is ridiculous right john roderick yeah peanut m&ms are acceptable red vines yeah especially if it's something like funyuns that they're not going to sell at the movie theater anyway right but but i but i would say that rule of thumb no hot food because gross. I don't even like theaters. You know, I guess it's up to you.

If the theater is selling those disgusting hot pretzel nuggets that you can dip in volcanic cheese or whatever, I guess you can have that. But, like, you want a hot dog in the theater? I feel like if you're going to bring something in from outside, it should be a pint of peppermint schnapps.

That is what you should bring into a theater from outside. You should forego the food entirely and drink rumple mints or some kind of schnapps. Peach schnapps probably also acceptable. I will agree with you insofar as this. If you have to be considerate to your neighbors and to the people who are working there and if you spill a bunch of funyuns on the floor right uh it's going to be the same as cleaning up that popcorn but if you spill a bunch of teriyaki on the floor it's going to be gross and it's left for someone else to deal with and and that is un-American. Therefore, you should not bring anything

that you would not be afraid to spill in your own bag. And schnapps is clear, so it would not stain. It would not stain your bag. And if you spill your schnapps in the theater, it will evaporate very quickly, and it'll smell like a car air freshener, which some people like. But don't buy schnapps. Enjoy your schnapps alone in the movie theater responsibly, please.

21 and over only. Otherwise, Funyuns, Munchos, beef jerky, acceptable. No hot meals from outside. Gross. Next docket. We have a note here from Jerry. My mom's house took on about two feet of water during Hurricane Sandy. She's been living with me since the day before the storm and will be for months to come.

I've gone to the house a few times since the storm to box up the salvageable items that now comprise the totality of her possessions. This weekend, my friends and I will be tearing the walls not easy to just heave its contents to the curb. Today was backbreaking and depressing, but I did have a few good laughs thanks to the live Judge John Hodgman podcasts. I listened to them both as I poured fetid water from pots and pans, sifted through mounds of useless paperwork that at one time was deemed important enough to file away, Well, thank you very much for those sentiments, Jerry. I'm really glad that you took some comfort and that you're most of all that you that you're okay. I think that both Jesse and I feel that way. And I think that John Roderick, who also hosts a podcast called Roderick on the Line, enjoy talking to each other, but most of all, really appreciate the fact that there are lots of people out there in the darkness who are listening. It is truly

to my mind a privilege and honor to get to speak to the people who call in and to know that there are other people listening there. It's among the most fun I've ever had in my life and I'm grateful for your listenership and glad that

it provided you some distraction. That is the ultimate purpose of entertainment is to distract us from dark thoughts and dark moments. Hey, John Roderick, how can people listen to Roderick on the Line? Oh, it is available on the iTunes. I think anybody who is savvy enough to be listening to this podcast is savvy enough to search the Internet for Roderick on the line. That's Roderick on've never been on the Internet. We actually have a deal with a chain of retirement communities where the podcast is played over the PA 24-7. seven.

Well, in that case, you old people can benefit from the wisdom of Roderick on the line. Have your darling grandchildren explain to you how the internet works. And make sure that they buy you some headphones because otherwise you won't be able to hear it

over the blaring Judge John Hodgman podcast that comes through your PA into your room all night long. Also, we used some swears. But use the Google. Thank you very much for joining us today, John and Bailiff Jesse. Thank you, as always, for bailiffing.

Of course. I hope we'll see everybody in the Bay Area at our San Francisco Sketch Fest show. You can find more information at MaximumFun.org. Yeah, incidentally, I'm going to be there in San Francisco for that Sketch Fest thing, and if you want to employ me in some capacity as like a towel boy. I don't know.

John Darnielle's already going to be there. Grrr! Yeah, I meant to mention that to you, John. John Darnielle is going to be the Maximum Fun Towel Boy. He's doing some music for our podcast. That's fine. And he's handling towels.

Hope you guys all get married and live together on a boat. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at GoSuperEgo.com. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at gosuperego.com. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO.

If you have thoughts about the show, join the conversation on our forum at forum.maximumfund.org and our Facebook group at facebook.com slash Judge John Hodgman. We'll see you online and next time right here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.