Judge John Hodgman - Right to a Fair Earring

Episode Date: July 15, 2021

Ben files suit against his friend and writing partner, Graham. The two of them agreed that if they were not hired on a writing staff by the end of 2020, they would get matching ear piercings. They did end up getting hired on a show, but their start date was at the very beginning of 2021. Graham believes that since they were offered the jobs in 2020, the spirit of the pact has been fulfilled. But Ben disagrees and believes that they need to follow through with the ear piercings!Who’s right? Who’s wrong? With Summertime Funtime Guest Bailiff Monte Belmonte!Thank you to Reid Hopkins for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, follow Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions there.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm summertime fun time guest bailiff Monty Belmonte from 93.9 The River W.R.S.I. in Northampton, Massachusetts. This week, right to a fair earring. Ben files suit against his friend and writing partner, Graham. The two of them agreed that if they were not hired on a writing staff by the end of 2020, they would get matching ear piercings. The studs jumped through a few hoops and earlobe and behold, they did end up getting hired. But their start date was at the very beginning of 2021. Graham is trying to gauge whether being offered the jobs in 2020 pokes a hole in their pact and frees their ears from perforation. But Ben is continuing to dangle their diamond promise before Graham and believes they need to pull the trigger on the piercing gun. Who's right?

Who's left? Left is not right and right is not wrong. But when it comes to Graham and Ben's ear holes, only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. This isn't the reference. This is just me saying hi to Monty. And also, how dare you? Hi. Welcome back to summer.

I love it. Hot Monty Summer begins. All right, here's the quote. Steve plays in many bands, such as the four tops the temptations david bowie roy orbison johnny mathis the supremes frankie valley and the four seasons manhattan transfer joan rivers bob newhart chubby checker and john hodgman summertime fun time pun time bailiff guest bailiff monty belmonte please swear the litigants in. Ben and Graham, please raise your right hands.

Now, bite down on this strap. I'm going to light this needle on fire. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you Vermeer or whatever? I do. I do. I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that Hodgman is a huge fan of Pierce Brosnan, President Franklin Pierce, and the 1960s Dutch band Golden Earring?

I do. I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Okay. I'm going to give you, so help me, Vermeer or whatever. That was really, really good. Thank you. Vermeer or whatever that was really really good thank you and Monty you have thoroughly shamed me because I for the life of me today could not come up with a genuinely on topic earring themed cultural reference and you just you just smashed it Vermeer golden earring Franklin Pierce

what was the other one Pierce Bros Brosnan. Pierce Brosnan. I could have even done Hawkeye Pierce. MASH. None of, didn't even think of it. Didn't even think of it. I thought going from Golden Earring and their big hit Radar Love to Radar from MASH to the reboot of MASH with John Hodgman as Radar, but that seemed a little bit too much of a stretch, so I struck that one.

Maybe I should get some tips from these new professional writers. No, it's good, Monty. You take it from here. I'm leaving. Joel, unlock me. Let me out of the radio station. I am, of course, broadcasting this summertime, after all, the very beginning of summertime, the very tail end of June as we record this. I'm broadcasting to you live on digital audio tape here from WERU Community Radio in East Orland, Maine. Listener supported and volunteer powered, a voice of many voices broadcasting from our solar powered studios in East Orland. I was just reading some left behind

pledge drive materials that were here on the desk here in the isolation booth where Joel has me imprisoned once again. Joel's over there on the other side of the isolation booth where Joel has me imprisoned once again. Joel's over there on the other side of the glass. Hello, Joel. Hello, Judge. And of course, we are here with guest, summertime, fun time, pun time, guest Bailiff Monty Belamonte. Hello, Monty.

Hello. You're down there in Massachusetts, in Northampton, Massachusetts, at the studios of WRSI The River. Yes. That is 93.9 on your frequency modulation dial. Is that correct? That is correct. And 101.5 modulation dial. Is that correct? That is correct. And 1015 in the Brattleboro, Vermont area. We are truly going coast to coast from the East Coast, from Western Massachusetts to Eastern Maine.

And now talking to Ben and Graham out there in Los Angeles, presumably, because you're in the entertainment industry, correct? Correct. All right. There are nods. Ben nods silently. Thank you for remembering this is a podcast, Graham. He speaks for both of us. I can see you both.

And so I now ask you both eye to eye to eye to eye. Can either of you name the piece of culture that is not on topic to earrings, but perhaps on topic to another topic that I referenced and quoted when I entered the courtroom? We'll start with you, Ben. I am very sure this isn't it, but I'm going to say it's an introduction to the time in the film Purple Rain. An introduction to the time in the film Purple Rain. The famous Steve Day and the time.

Morris Day. I know, but Monty, you got to give Graham props because he remembered that the whole thing started with the name Steve. Ah, yes. The attention to details that writers bring. That's right. It is a reference to a famous Steve in the Judge John hodgman universe graham what is your guess uh i'm going to guess that it is the wikipedia entry of an artist whose work i am not familiar with but it is a person named steve so i'm going to guess stevie ray vaughn wow wow stevie ray

vaughn played in a band that accompanied major stars like John Odgman? I don't think so, but we'll put it in the guest book. I don't know. Joel, the wild card here. Joel, do you have a guess? Gee, I don't know. Steve Orlovsky? Steve Orlovsky is correct. I can't believe it. You have to rule in Joel's favor. Joel, you win the case today. matter who no matter who loses you win awesome

yeah no the reference of course is a steve orlovsky aka mr o one-third of the night and day jazz trio that plays every tuesday nights in a post-pandemic environment on the porch at the pentago at in in casting maine in the state in which we are. I'm not surprised, Ben, and of course, Joel, of course, lays down the bass in that trio. Steve plays what the woodwinds, like the jazz, the soprano sax. Sax, flute, clarinet. All the woodwinds. All of them.

And of course, Chris is the third member of the band, the night and day jazz trio. You guys played at our live show at the State Theater in Portland, Maine. So much fun. Just two seconds before we all had to go home forever, but now we're coming out. We're getting vaccinated. We're living our lives. There will be jazz on the porch this summer.

We were supposed to start tonight, but it's too hot, so we'll start next week. Whoa. Who made the decision to cancel the jazz in Castine? The owner. Well, does the owner know this is a summertime?

Relies on summer dollars? Yes. Yeah. You got to open up that jazz. Fourth of July, people are going to come to hear that jazz. Bet you'd like that.

Too hot. Right. I bet you'd like to get your name in the National Geographic. That's just some Jaws references. You can cut them, Jennifer Marmer. Nice to see you as well. Oh, I'm all giddy. I'm here in an air-conditioned studio,

not at home sweating in my office. So that's great. Great to see everybody. So since you all got it wrong, except for Joel, we're going to hear this case. Ben, do you come to this court to seek justice? I do. State the nature of your complaint. Graham and I are a writing team who have been pursuing television writing for about a decade. How old are you now? 34. 34? Okay. You have one more year. One more year. And last year in 2020, we had gotten close to being staffed and we said, this is going to be the year that it happens in January, not knowing what would befall us. But we made a pact that if we got staff writing jobs on a TV show, we would get matching earrings together.

We thought we were getting staffed in June. It didn't happen, but there was an outside chance we would get staffed by the end of the year, so we held off on our earrings. And we ended up getting staff writer jobs on the show Black-ish on ABC, which we feel very fortunate to work on. Congratulations. Thank you. start date happened to be January 4th. And I maintain that because we did not get staff jobs in 2020, we still have to uphold our pact to each other to get our ears pierced. Graham says that because we got our contracts at the end of 2020, that counts as good enough and we don't have to get ear piercings. So you, Ben, are pro-pierce and Graham, you are situationally anti-piercing. Correct.

In other words, by the letter of your FACO agreement, you do not have to get your ears pierced and therefore you are not going to. Is that correct, Graham? That is what I maintain. Yes, your honor. That is what you maintain. And are you both 34? I'm 35.

Whoa, you just made it into television. Right, right at the last second. Because if you hadn't gotten staffed, I would have just told you to your face right now, quit. Go home. Good job. Congratulations. Is this the first staff writing position that you guys have had as a duo? It is. Wowee. And you've been doing this. So what have you been doing for 10 years, if not writing television? We had both been assistants for various writers before.

I'd been a writer's assistant and a script coordinator, which is I had been working on Black-ish for about four and a half seasons before we were staffed as the script coordinator, which is a position. So I work in the writer's room or when I was the script coordinator, it was basically like the editor and the publisher of all of the scripts. And so I acted as the liaison between the writer's office and then the rest of production. Because, and when, when, when you're in a writer's room, and this is going back to a time when there were rooms that writers got and sat in. It's not a writer's Zoom, it's a writer's room.

The writers can't write anything. They have to just sit there and eat snacks and fart ideas. And then someone like you, Graham, sort of writes them down and makes them and makes them make sense. Correct. Correct. This is, that's what you get to do now. Now there's someone who's going to be you in the real room or virtual room or whatever it is.

And you just get to laze about and eat snacks and go, is there something in the idea that it's a car? Is there something in the idea that it's, that it's a, that it's an alligator? Is it, which is funnier, an alligator or a caiman? And I'll give you a hint.

Alligator. Because people don't know what a caiman is. It's an island. Caiman. Well, yeah, but it's also an alligator-like creature, Monty. You know what show you should pitch? Alligator-ish. It's about a caiman.

You can have that one for free. This the last season of blackish i believe right yeah so they took pity on you and said all right we'll bump graham up and graham's like hey i've got a deadbeat friend with a mustache can i bring him in as well i've been working with him for 10 years and they said absolutely not and graham said okay for 10 years. And they said, absolutely not. And Graham said, okay, I'm going to walk. And they said, that's fine. Okay. You called my bluff, but really Ben's a great guy. And they said, okay, we don't even care. This is the last season. We're not even, whatever's going to happen. We're just going to be, we're just going to be pitching episodes about various prehistoric reptiles anyway. so sure. Is that about it?

That's about how you get into television, right? That's eerily accurate. But sincerely, like Ben, you were not working on the production Black-ish. You were doing other stuff? Right. I had been an assistant for some writers that worked at Black-ish,

so I knew some of the people there. But then after that assistant job ended, I was doing freelance advertising, copywriting. I think some of our listeners might be curious as the, how, how one gets going in the business and how one can work for 10 years before even getting hired as a writer. And, you know, where did you, where, where did it really begin for the two of you and how did you guys meet?

Uh, we met in college, uh, in film school, uh, where I remained a film student. Ben was only a film student for a few short months before changing his major, but that's where we met. Uh, we became friends. And then after college, we were also roommates and working together and we decided, Oh, this, you know, we get along, we might as well try writing. And so we started writing scripts. And I mean, there's not a... Spec scripts? I'm sorry?

Spec scripts? Yes, spec scripts. We, you know, also tried our hand at, you know, one-act plays and short films and things of that nature, trying to attract notice. But then, you know, we sort of fell into, I just ended up working at ABC. Everyone in Hollywood gets a job through somebody that they know or a recommendation. And so eventually enough of our friends had jobs in the industry that I was able to get in as a writer's PA, which is the person who gets coffee and lunch for all the writers. And then I sort of worked my way up at ABC over a period of too many years. So wait a minute. You went to film school?

At Chapman University. Say it again. Where? At Chapman University. Go Panthers. I've never heard of that university, but I guess that's a sports team. I don't care if the Panthers go. The Panthers can go or stay, in my mind. It's also their marching band, so. Stay, Panthers, stay. Good boy.

It's a reference to a title card from a production company. Jennifer Marmer gets it. Monty Belmont gets it. Ubu. TV. This is inside TV. This is inside Panthers TV baseball talk. That's what this episode is.

Right. So the secret is you move to Los Angeles, you meet a bunch of people, and then a friend gets you a low-level job. And that's why it's all white guys, pretty much still. We're working on it, I guess, as entertainment, as culture. Kenya Barris is working on it. I guess, as entertainment, as culture. Right. We'll work on it. Kenya Barris is working on it. Oh, yeah. For sure. For sure.

Yeah. Okay, cool. So, well, congratulations, Jennifer Marmer. Please edit out the fact that they tried to write some one-act plays. Because I'm afraid their parents are going to listen to this. And it's been hard enough. It's been hard enough. Ten years post-graduation, they get a job as writers.

I don't want to hear. My parents flew out fromaska to watch one of our one-act plays so that is all right a couple more questions before we get to your um frankly your frankly dumb dispute uh okay so what was the one-act play that your parents flew from Nebraska to see, Ben? It was about two comedy writers who were kidnapped by the Russian government and forced to write fake news. That's pretty good. That is good. Pretty good. What was it called?

Fake news? It was called For Your Misinformation. How about Newsish? Try that. Another one you get for free. Tell Kenya Barris I'm ready and ready to go. I don't know anybody, but I'll come and buy coffee for everybody. What about Compromat?

And the star Matt would be the guy that got kidnapped. That's the adoption for CBS. The adaptation. Is this what it's like in a writer's room where I just spew all sorts of stuff and then somebody tells me good or bad and then i just eat my snacks and go away no what happens is is there something in compromise and then just no one says anything and you know you know you are no longer alive that's what happens honestly like this is what

i don't understand about one night plays go ahead and write two acts who cares it's your play if i were your parents flying in from Nebraska and I, like, that's a long trip. That's probably, I don't even know if there's a direct flight from Omaha to Los Angeles. Alright, now Graham, I want to ask you this because we talked about spec scripts. For people who don't know, a spec script is where you

basically, you write an imaginary episode of an existing TV show within the genre that you want, either the TV show you want to write for or within the genre that you want to write for. And this is something that television writers have to do. What was the, what was the spec script you,

what, what show did you write a spec script for? Uh, our, we wrote a couple, I think we did a Bob's burgers, but our favorite one was, uh,

an episode of Archer. Oh, Archer product of floyd county productions in atlanta same as i would dare say it's sibling show dicktown available sort of at bit.ly slash dicktown d-i-c-k-t-o-w-n uh and what was what happened in yours so you just wrote a fake archer correct and what was your spec script for archer that one was about uh uh the you know the team and this was many years ago but the team gets hired to find or to steal an artifact from german archaeologists which sends archer into just a tailspin where he is so happy that he gets to live out his Indiana Jones fantasy. And so, yeah. Feels a little Venture Brothers to me.

Sorry, guys. Oh, we love Venture Brothers. We enjoyed the work. We enjoyed the work. Keep in touch. Okay. Okay, so there you were at the end of your 33rd and 34th respective years, knowing that your dream was quickly sunsetting into despair. If we don't get staffed by the end of 2020, says Ben, then we will get earrings.

I don't understand why earrings are a punishment, Ben. Do I understand the formulation? Well, we kind of talked about it and neither of us would get a tattoo. And so earring was the closest permanent body thing we could do. We wanted to have it have some stakes. You wanted, oh, I see. So you wanted to motivate yourself to get into a room. Yes. Right. I'll offer you a note. It's a little confusing, right? When your main characters are doing something when something doesn't happen. Do you see what I mean? It's a little easier for the audience to understand when your main to punish ourselves if something does not happen absence of action is hard to build a story around or so i have learned working with david reese on a secret project right now that

was a little note for myself graham why is getting an earring a punishment? Is it a punishment to you particularly? Yeah, neither of us particularly want earrings. In my mind, the reason for the pact was to create a sort of proxy problem to distract from the existential angst of another year of our lives has gone by where we have not advanced further in our goals and so it's easier to think oh man i don't want to get an earring than it is to think oh man i'm a year closer to death with nothing to show for it we may be have you ever heard of the movie frequency i don't think so no monty you know this movie frequency not i jennifer marmer really am i that old maybe that's what's happening here it's a 1990s movie you know that one joel frequency i've heard of it didn't see it okay sure not adding anything to know that you've heard of it i've never seen it either but dennis

quaid isn't it it's about a guy it's about a grown man who is a ham radio enthusiast and the and the signal bounces off of time or something in the stratosphere and he ends up talking to his dad as a young man i think i recall that premise yeah yeah maybe it's ripe for a reboot you guys should get on that that one's for free i'm pitching it to you now because i feel like uh what year am i talking to you guys in 1950 not get earrings who cares look i know i know you're from your parents are from omaha but like i would think even the lawyers in omaha have full face tattoos at this point if they're under 40 where are you from graham i'm from orange county california orange county california yeah i guess i don't know it's

pretty conservative down there right yeah you two don't have any tattoos no no we're we're uh yeah no tattoos no piercings. I mean, I have long hair now, but that's about as wild as I've gotten. These are the two white guys with facial hair who don't have tattoos? Is there a religious reason behind it? No, I just don't have faith in myself that if I get a tattoo of anything, that it will be something that I still like having in 10 or 20 years.

Well, guess what? You're absolutely correct. Good job. Just saying, statistically, it's anomalous that we have two completely non-body modified people in their mid-30s who listen to Judge John Hodgman. Truly, truly blank canvases for me to potentially mess with. Because the end of this episode, I will, I will decide that either Ben is correct and the deal was still in place and

you must get earrings, something that 11 year olds routinely do or two year olds. That's true. But the two year olds aren't usually going to the mall by themselves. Right. I hope, uh, that's true but the two-year-olds aren't usually going to the mall by themselves right i hope uh or i'm gonna stand by graham and keep his keep his body pure hello i'm your judge john hodgman the judge john hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you our members of course thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh, boy, that would be fantastic.

Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs. They're made-in, made-in.

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Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep. That's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10 minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new

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Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. What's your background, by the way, Graham? That's not a real room behind you, is it? What's your background, by the way, Graham? That's not a real room behind you, is it? No, it's a fictional Zoom background. I'm currently in my very poorly appointed garage.

Oh, okay. It looks like you're in the studios of WERU here in Orland, Maine, with all your CDs behind you. Racks and racks and racks of CDs. Never mind. I was really jealous that a new writer on an ABC television show would have such an immensely huge library in a gorgeous apartment like that. I should have known. Hang on. Hang on. For the Judge John Hodgman account on Instagram, I want to take a picture of his actual background or his fake background.

Now turn it off so we can get the actual one. One second. Yeah. I'll show you the life of the mind. It's a good thing I didn't do a Barton Fink quote to come in on this. I was going to. Obviously, you catch the reference. There we go.

Oh, my. Oh, my word. Oh, the humanity of Peloton. Wow. Oh, no. That's a $200 elliptical machine. Okay. I know, but it's got like barbells stacked on top of it.

And then I feel like there's a body bag in there. Go back to the other thing. This is distressing. Yeah. I feel like I already won because you made Graham reveal his shameful garage. Well, you're in a real space. And I see that you've got the Complete World Knowledge Trilogy by me, John Hodgman, on the shelf directly behind you. I do.

Pandering will help you in this case. But Ben, quesh. that's short for question quesh ben we talking about what kind of earrings are we talking about here that's uh still up for debate we had uh said maybe hoops or studs when we started talking about it more graham said he might want a little like enamel dinosaur uh-huh um i suggested we get powerful magnet earrings so that when we get close to each other our ears stick together but that's probably a bad idea you can get powerful magnet earrings and you don't even have to pierce your ears just put one of those super magnets on either side of the lobe

that's a low you can bulk people's credit cards with your i love that i feel more creative talking to you two than i've felt in the past 18 months where do i pluck this stuff from we got a workshop we're gonna do some more blue sky thinking you guys but you were not talking about any like jennifer marmer what do you call the earrings where you know you just enlarge the hole more and more and more and you put like discs and things in there, dinner plates and so forth? Do they have a name? Monty knows. Gages.

Gages? Yeah. You're not talking about that, are you, Ben? No, I would very much not want to do that. All right. So you got, oh boy, oh boy, got the paperwork in 2020. And then, but you got the, started the job in 2021. Is that the, is that the crux of this debate? Yes. What's enforceable here? How did you turn this fun dare into like SAG paperwork?

why i didn't qualify for my sag health insurance because i didn't i did i got the paperwork at the end of the year but then i signed my start work papers the beginning of the year and now i have to go on cobra with my mom and dad sag paperwork incidentally is how you remove the gauges after you've had them in your ears for 20 years get off my phone get off how dare you so so graham what is your contention that this that what's the loophole so to speak see i can do it too i can do it too monty i made a joke what's the loophole what's the what's the lobey loophole well my contention is that the the spirit of the pact is you know was completed the existential angst had been erased before the end of December. Right.

We were not carrying it into the new year with us at all. Right, you succeeded, you didn't fail. And would you contend, Graham, that you succeeded in part because you were afraid of going and getting a tiny little ear piercing? I don't think that one caused the other. No. Correlation, but no causation.

Yes. Okay. And Ben,, but no causation. Yes. Okay. And Ben, why do you want to do it now? Why do you care? You got the job. Or let me put it this way. Graham got you the job. I'm not arguing that.

Graham got me the job. That's a fact. Yeah. Look, collaborative duos, collaboration of any kind, there's push and pull. There's contention. This is a power play like you're trying to stab him in the ear to sort of gain some gain some juice back because he got you this job uh no i think it's in in my mind we are writing partners it's it's a like a long-term relationship that we have had and will continue to have and that remains to be seen i agree with the yeah

you're right just but who knows what will happen? All right, go on. Graham is married. I am not. This is maybe the closest thing in my life to a spouse, someone who I share money and dreams with. And I want to know that he will follow through on things that he has agreed to. It's very important to me. Why are you the one with the nice office office with the actual shelves you sound like someone's sitting alone in a garage um this is a uh this is a terrible apartment that i've been in for 10 years and uh the shelves are only here because i i make furniture and i built the shelves oh well nice i like that you had plan b ready to go you You were going to Harrison Ford it and become a carpenter if it didn't come together. Yeah. Until Graham came and saved you. So you have no human connections except for Graham and you envy him the fact that he has a functional relationship that is not yours. So you want to control his mind. I have lots of great friendships, just none that are financially tied to me except for Graham.

May I ask you, how was your pandemic experience was it very lonely yes it was um i have two roommates so i at least got to see them you're not completely alone no and isolated okay let the record show that ben nodded very sadly there before he remembered he was on a podcast i get it so ben do you want to get an earring personally? Like you're into this? No, it's not something I would ever do on my own. It's not something I particularly have been seeking out because if I wanted an earring, I'd just get an earring.

I kind of just want Graham to have to get an earring and I'm willing to get an earring to make that happen. And I want him to uphold his side of this agreement. Graham, why did you agree to this pact uh i think because mostly because of the the sort of the existential reason that i mentioned earlier it's a lot easier to if the thing you're dreading is like ah i don't want to have to get an earring versus ah i don't want to get coffee for the next 30 years and never be able to retire so it was it was simply i mean to me it was a

i guess also we were feeling a little bit cocky you know we were pretty optimistic that there was there were two shows that we were we had good chances at getting hired on. And so we thought, oh, well, surely it's going to be one or the other of them. But whenever we have felt optimistic in the past, things have just never worked out. And so this was a way of sort of tempering the optimism, if that makes sense. I love how the two, the two bad outcomes were getting an earring and also getting coffee for the rest of your life and not being able to retire. Like getting coffee for other people for the rest of your life and not being able to retire. One of those is scarier to me than the others.

Like one of them is pretty motivating on its own. Have you ever made pacts like this before, you two? We have one pact that is still ongoing, yet to be determined. If we ever sell our own TV show, when we begin to have to do press for those, we have made a pact that we are going to have very elaborate 70s style perms. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay.

I don't remember how that originated, but it is something that is you know potentially in the cards we'll see ben is ben is already looking pretty you know like magnum pi's younger brother with his little mustache i'm trying what i really want it's not even a little mustache it's a nice it's a nice tom selicky mustache on the face of a Tom Selleck's withered twin. You're a handsome person, Ben, I'm going to say right now, and the mustache suits you. I'm just trying to paint a picture for those who can't see you as they listen that you're not a Tom Sellecky kind of like weathered 70s hunk. You're just a nice looking young man. Thank you.

I was going for more of a John Oates mustache, though. Definitely. See that. Yeah. Hey, Monty Belmonte, you're a professional disc jockey, right? I suppose, yes. All right. This is what I would like you to do.

Introduce the song, You Make My Dreams Come True, and name the artist that performs that song. You want to do it like a like i would do it or like a like a more stereotypical dj what's my motivation i'll do it you know what try it the way you like all right everybody here is you make my dreams come true by the dynamic duo of graham and ben otherwise known as all in a hoots okay jennifer marmer mute him okay see i don't do that on the regular radio but it's fun to do it once in a while Ben, otherwise known as Hall and Oates. Okay. Jennifer Marmer, mute him. Okay. See, I don't do that on the regular radio, but it's fun to do it once in a while.

Mute Monty. That's not it. You're in radio jail now, Monty. You know why? Why? Ben or Graham, you know why? Graham was raising his hand. I believe, I think we both know why. It is because the the artistic duo is professionally known as Daryl Hall

and John Oates and not Hall and Oates, which I recently learned from the Judge John Hodgman podcast. But only because I recently learned it from the internet. Oh, I should have quizzed Joel on that. Joel, did you know that? No. Daryl Hall and John Oates, they get mad if you say

Hall and Oates. It's every one of their record albums, Monty. You're out of jail now, by the way, because you're poor friends. Every one of their record albums is credited to Daryl Hall and John Oates. Hall and Oates is never written down anywhere. Wow. Did you know that? I'm today years old when I learned that. Next thing you're going to tell me it's not the Talking Heads or the Pixies. No, it's the, the. You take the the from both of those bands and it becomes the the also joel you know i learned today reduced what's that it's not joe bird and the field hippies did you know that no it's technically it's marillion marillion did you know that no i don't believe you yeah okay now you're in radio jail all these djs what are we even talking about night jazz trio

monty what do you what do you think we're gonna what do you what do you think i gotta do with jail. All these DJs. What are we even talking about? It's also the day and night jazz trio. Monty, what do you think we're gonna, what do you think I gotta do with Ben and Graham here? Well, I am one of those people that has had many body modifications, so to me, this is such a non-issue that, like, I had six earrings and now wear none of them, and it's

like nothing ever happened in my life, so it seems very inconsequential to me. So I think this really comes down to what they want to do. Have your, have your, have your holes filled in your earring, your pierce holes. I can put one in, uh, my left ear, which is the one I wore the most, uh, up until the most recently. Still, I could put one in there, but you can barely notice if I, you know, if I don't have one in, but it makes it fun on Halloween. If I want to dress up like a pirate or something or Mr. Clean. Sure.

You have a very clean look, a very Mr. Clean look. Joel, you have any pierced ears or tattoos? No. Okay. Jennifer Marmer, this is a personal question. I have two holes in my left ear and one hole in my right ear. And when I was in college, I had an eyebrow piercing. Really?

Mm-hmm. And when did you take that out and what happened? Did your eyebrow fall off? It did. It was real scary. No, I took it out pretty soon after I graduated. I remember thinking, like, I'm done with this. I'm done with college. I'm done with college.

I'm done with this eyebrow ring. Right. And it closed up. You can kind of still see, like if you look hard enough, you can see where it was. And if I get my eyebrows waxed or something, occasionally the esthetician will say, you know, oh, did you have a piercing? But meaningless now. say, you know, oh, did you have a piercing? But meaningless now. My left ear was pierced when I was in college, home for the summer, hanging out with my friends and future wife and whole person

in her own right. And someone just stuck a needle through the top part of my ear. You know what I mean? And I put a thing, I put a stud in there for a while and I was like, this is dumb. And I took it out. Now there's just a lump there that I can feel but for the most part i bet you people didn't know i was incredibly cool i had an earring in the 90s i had a soul patch for a period of time and i also got a small tattoo on my right shoulder in portsmouth new hampshire before it was legal in massachusetts uh 19 years old and is a tattoo representing a figure from a Jorge Luis Borges story. Yeah. And guess what, Graham? It looks really dumb now.

It looked okay. It was okay for about 20 years, and then after that I guess, yeah, this last year I'm like, oh, that's dumb. So Ben, if I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me rule? That Graham get his ear pierced? Anything more specific than that? Yeah, that both of us get our ear pierced. Anything, anything more specific than that? Yeah. That

both of us, both of us get our ear pierced. Um, if you would like to decide what kind of earrings we get or where we get them, if it's a needle or if it's at Claire's at the Burbank mall, um, I would, I would take any specificity you wanted to add to that. Well, I mean, why don't you pitch me? This is your pitch. Tell me the perfect day. Tell me what happens on the day you guys get your ears pierced. I think we go out for a nice big lunch together at the mall food court. Which mall? And probably the Burbank mall because it's closer to Graham and he doesn't come down to the west side where I live anymore.

Okay. All right. You're meeting him more than halfway. Yeah. I'll even pick him up. Why would he leave that apartment? It's so gorgeous. You're going to pick him up from his garage?

I pick him up from his garage. If his wife and two-year-old daughter wanted to come, I'd let them come watch their daddy get a hold on him. Oh, that'd be exciting for them. And we'd go to the Burbank Mall. They've got a Mongolian grill down in the food court, which I really like, where you can choose all of your things you want in your bowl, and they'll cook it up on that big circular grill. And then we'd take the escalator up, walk by the Spencer's Gifts, and go to Claire's. And they have the little piercing gun. And I think I'd go first to show him that he doesn know, he doesn't need to be scared.

And then Graham would get hit. Does it have to be one at a time? I don't know. I don't know the Claire's piercing setup at the Burbank Mall as well as I used to. Does it have to be one at a time? Or can you sit next to each other with two different piercing technicians and you guys can, like, link pinkies and pinky promise as it's happening? That mall's looking pretty depressed. So I think that Claire's probably can't support more than one employee at a time, but I could be wrong about that.

It's just singular Claire now. Yeah, the other Claire quit. Got me, Monty. All right, who goes first in your drink scenario? I'll go first. You go first? You show Graham it doesn't hurt that bad? Right.

Right. And you all gather around Graham. And as he gets the piercing, he looks into your eyes and says, you were right all along. That would be ideal. This is glorious. My God, it's full of stars. Is that what he says? I mean, if you could say you were right all along, this is glorious. My God, it's full of stars. Is that what he says? I mean, if you could say you were right all along, this is glorious.

My God, it is full of stars. That would just make my day. All right. I'm adding that to the ruling. I'm not saying that that's the ruling. I'm saying I'm just, Graham, do you want to punch that up at all? Is there a version of that where you don't say, my God, it's full of stars, but say something that you actually

have been meaning to say to ben for the past 10 years well i think it could go exactly like that except at the very end we cut to michael palin staring into the camera like at the end of brazil and it's revealed that it was all in ben's head and it never happened well you're talking you're talking my love language now if you're making reference reference to the last scene of Brazil. I like it. But if you were to say something to Ben that really reflects your relationship dynamic, what would it be? Not just a cultural reference because that's lazy writing and that's what I do. Let's say you're a real writer. I guess in this scenario where you have ruled in his favor, I guess I would say, you know, so I have already made my peace with what's happening.

So I don't know how you feel about it. I've ordered you like, think about how you would feel about it and look at Ben. Like, would you say happy now? Effer? I guess I would say thank you for making sure that even though I am now a family man because of you, I still have to do dumb things sometimes. Oh, is that something you feel that you're going to stop doing dumb things unless Ben tricks you into it on a podcast, Graham?

I definitely do fewer dumb things. That's, you know, that's certain. Would you say that Ben is a reminder of your youth or someone who is dragging you into the past as you seek to go forward in your life? someone who is dragging you into the past as you seek to go forward in your life? You know, he's he's if I am a boat that is cruising through the ocean, you know, he is not an anchor holding me back. He's just a little, you know, like a fun little fishing bag that dangles out the back and catches crabs and reminds me of all the fun crabs that we have caught in the past. I wanted to be a jet ski. i want to be a jet ski zooming around you pointing you where to go your friend just

called you a fun little fishing bag wow and that's not how you fit what crabs are you fishing for with fun bags is that a thing that you did you could i know j Jennifer Marmer, we're going to get to the verdict, but just the whole world has opened up to me now. I guess I've just revealed I have no idea how boats or fishing works. Have you fished for crabs before? No. Well, no, I don't think I ever have. Yeah, we went to San Francisco on Steve's dad's boat with all the crab pots in the bay.

But we weren't fishing for them. He was just like lifting up crabs and going, see, here's a bunch of crabs that I have caught before you arrived. No, we pulled up the crab pots in the bay. But we weren't fishing for them. He was just like lifting up crabs and going, see, here's a bunch of crabs that I have caught before you arrived. No, we pulled up the crab pots. Yeah, what you don't do is you don't trawl a bag behind your boat. You put traps on the bottom, right, Joel? That's how you get, how do you get crabs, Joel? Go down to

the little fish shack. Right. On the water. Right. Captain's catch. Oh, okay. That's where i get your crap get them by the gallon no okay in any case all right one little fishing bag how about this i'm just gonna say i i was gonna say that ben is like a a fun little happy porpoise or dolphin who's kind of like leaping from the sea alongside you as you as you cruise into the sunset of your life and impending death as you go in fatherhood but i like that's a much better analogy i like jet ski better i like ben on the jet ski zooming around

yelling at graham come get on the back of my jet ski. Leave your wife and child behind. You're not dead yet, Graham. Come on. Throw me the line. I'll pull you in by the chain that's attached to your ear that I made you get. Okay. I think I've figured out everything I need to in order to make my decision. I'm going to go down into my lobster shack and I will be back in a moment with my verdict. I resisted the inclination to say how I caught crabs, but I'll continue. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Ben and Graham, this is an interesting conundrum for somebody like me

who has had six earrings, but I want to know from both of you, are you afraid of it hurting when you get an earring is this why this was something that you uh put out there that the fear of the pain of the piercing ben i i am not afraid of the pain um in the words of patrick swayze in roadhouse pain don't hurt uh but graham is also one of the most pain averse people i've ever met which i know everyone's pain averse but he goes to extreme lengths to avoid any kind of pain uh i would like to rebut that if i may monty i know i know we've adjourned but i'm just a bailiff

uh no one except masochist likes pain i don't think I'm any more pain averse than other people. Like, I don't complain when I have to go to the dentist. When I get shots of the doctor, I always get a sticker that says I was a brave boy. You know, the other week I got a like a hurty style massage, like those ones that hurt. And I was able to cry so silently that the masseuse did not even offer me a Kleenex. Congratulations to you. That's a big move, big boy. Get another sticker for that one. Well, we'll see what the judge has to say about all this when he comes back in just a moment.

Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.

And remember, no running in the halls. Please rise as Judge John Hodman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict a hurdy style massage i just had a hurdy style massage uh in the lobster. They just threw a bunch of lobsters on me, took the rubber bands off and let them go. My circulation is incredible now, let me tell you. It's been a pleasure talking to both of you about this incredibly low stakes dumb dispute. It's not totally low stakes, though. The stakes are personal. not totally love steaks though the steaks are personal as i began to understand as we were as we were workshopping that um jet ski or porpoise decision in the boat metaphor

and the crab bagging metaphor of graham's life as a father and husband as a grown-up graham's a year older even though he sits alone and talks into a can in a garage for a living, he is he is married and has a child and made some big grown up steps that Ben's mustache cannot compensate for. There's no way when when everyone looks at this, these two on the Judge John Hodgman Instagram page and on the show page, you'll see they both have facial hair, but only one of them looks like a little boy. Brave boy. A little brave boy. Just like Graham going to get a shot. For sure. And now I get it a little bit more because Ben, as you pointed out, a writing partnership is ideally a long-term relationship.

It is both a very personal, creative, and emotional relationship that is more than a friendship because like marriage, it is also a financial relationship and a business relationship. And, you know, there is a push and pull that goes on in that relationship. And when someone gets an opportunity that the other person doesn't, whether that's professional or personal, or someone develops an opportunity or an idea that goes places that the other person doesn't, you know, there's friction. friction graham is has moved forward in his in his life in a in a positive way and i trust ben that you are very very happy for him and graham but graham himself senses like oh i need i need ben to remind me of what it's of what it's like to uh be a be a happy little jet ski or crab bag or whatever it is he is and i think just as in a romantic relationship there is merit in symbolic actions such as getting married there is merit in in in friend and collaborator symbolic actions as well such as getting earrings i mean this is the thing graham it's not a big deal it's not a big deal the the no one will know if you know if you get your ears pierced and

you wear that earring for a month, no one will notice. You take it out, no one will notice. The hole will fill up. It'll be done. It's over. I don't think that you're particularly pain averse, but I do think that this is not a big deal. That said, Ben, it's Graham's body. No way I'm going to rule that somebody get an ear piercing against his will. Not a big deal. That said, Ben, it's Graham's body. You know, I can't. No way I'm going to rule that somebody get an ear piercing against his will. No way. Not in a million years. It's his body.

You know, I kind of I kind of want to order him to get a full face tattoo of me on his chest. But this is his body. It's his body. And plus, you know, this is a this is an Internet court of fake law. The letter of the fake law is clear. You started the job in 2021. Is it a loophole? Yes.

Is Graham weaseling out of this? Of course he is. But legally, he is outside of the bounds of the contract that he formed with you. And since he doesn't want to do it, he's not going to do it. So I can't obviously, Graham, enjoy your full unpierced lobes until you are ready. Ben, I'm sorry to let you down. However, I fully endorse your plans to both get 70 style perms if, and I dare say when, you sell your own show i find it alarming how many of my references you laughed at you're young you shouldn't get the things that i'm

talking about the 70s is my time to make fun of you have the 90s to make fun of but since you're in 70s mode for whatever reason it it's retro meta comedy for you. I'm going to say, obviously, Ben, you're a Mike Brady perm for sure. And Graham, Mr. Roper, not a perm, but I want to see you in a Mr. Roper. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Ben, your dreams did not come true. Judge John Hodgman can't go for that. Other Daryl Hall and John Oates references in regards to the ruling.

Graham, you do not have to get an earring. Ben, do you still want an earring? No, it was never about wanting an earring. It was about wanting Graham to have an earring and uphold his bargain. It was just about mutilating his body so you know you have control over him so he doesn't leave you behind. Yeah, I don't recognize his bodily autonomy. Exactly. Is there another kind of ring that may sort of bridge this divide here that you could get? Engagement ring of like a writer's room engagement ring of sorts, a brotherhood of duo writers, something along those lines. I already bought us both matching Adidas tracksuits when we got our staff writing job.

So maybe he'll wear one of those with me to work. Graham, how do you feel about the judge's decision? I'm ecstatic. The only thing better than winning is uh beating ben can i can i say something is there is there something in ben buying you guys matching adidas tracksuits and graham not getting it and wearing both of them on the first day there's something there i don't know is there something i don't know i don't? I don't know. Is there something? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Never mind. Ben, Graham, go get me a cup of coffee. Ben, Graham, thank you for joining us today on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you.

It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. It was great. Good luck, guys, and congratulations. Thank you. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there?

Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O.

Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Another case in the books. Before we dispense some swift justice, we want to thank Reed Hopkins for naming this week's episode right to a fair earring. If you'd like to name a future episode, follow Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions. Follow us on Twitter. I'm at Monty Belmonte and Judge Hodgman is at Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJHo, and check out the Maximum Fun subreddit to discuss this episode. We're on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. Make sure to follow us there for evidence and other fun stuff. Our engineer in Maine is the incomparable Joel Mann, Program and Operations

Manager at WERU Community Radio in Orland, Maine. You can listen to WERU at WERU.org, and you can follow Joel on Instagram. His handle is TheMaine, with an E, man with two Ns. Our producer is the wonderful Jennifer Marmer. Now let's get to Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment. Kelly asks, which is the more widely known REM song? Everybody Hurts or It's the End of the World as We Know It. Sorry, Monty. I was just too busy looking at Joel's Instagram account. I haven't checked in for a while.

Joel, I apologize. There's just a photo of a snowblower. I love it. And then a photo of a snowblower and then a photo of you sitting by a fire staring into a flower adolfia adalia adalia yeah salvador dahlia salvador dahlia you're you're named flower okay everyone check this out now joel i'll throw it to you. Which song is, which is the more, which is the better known REM song? More widely known. More widely known.

Okay. Is it, and don't say it out loud yet. Is it everybody hurts or it's the end of the world as we know it? Do you understand the question, Joel? I do. Okay. Monty, you're also a DJ, so you know this. Yes.

I'm going to count to three. And when I say three, say say your answer okay when i say three one two three waiting for the world to end everybody hurts waiting for the world to end if you know it what did you say monty i said everybody hurts no the answer is it's the end of the world as we know it. Right. That's the end. That's about it for this week's episode. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho or email Hodgman at MaximumFun.org.

No case too small. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. MaximumFun.org Comedy and culture. See you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.