Judge John Hodgman - School House Dock-et

Episode Date: August 12, 2026

Summer is almost over, which means we’re going BACK to school - Judge John Hodgman style. We’re clearing the docket of all your pressing (and not so pressing) back-to-school-related disputes: from extracurriculars to PTA conflicts, and most importantly, how to keep class supplies IN the classroom. Follow along as Judge John and Bailiff Jesse Thorn rule on cases like: should you force your daughter to take part in debate club, because she loves to debate…with you? Can PTA social gatherings be at a family-friendly brewery, or should they stick to alcohol-free (ish) locations like your local park? Is it cool to be friends with your lunch lady? And for all the teachers out there: how do you keep pencils from disappearing from your classroom? PLUS: What. Is. The Herd??? Sharpen your pencils, because there WILL be a pop quiz afterwards, on this week’s episode of Judge John Hodgman! We need YOUR disputes to make this show! So please send us your weirdest problems, your niche drama, and your pettiest disputes for our judgment! Submit them at: maximumfun.org/jjho ---Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Become a member to unlock special bonus episodes and more. Memberships start at just $5 a month. Just tap here!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff, Jesse Thorne. We're clearing the docket this week. Judge John Hodgman is as always with me. Hi, John. Hello, Jesse Thorne. Hello to Maximum Fun HQ out there in Los Angeles, where it's hot, right? It's hot out there. It's over 10,000 degrees, according to the latest weather reports. 10,000 degrees, whereas I am here in my crisp pool, solar-powered studios, summer chambers, here at w-E-R-U.org with Joel Mann-I-Jol. Good afternoon, Judge. It is not 10,000 degrees here in Maine. It is early August, and that means only one thing. Fall has arrived.

It is cold. It is rainy. And you know, when fall hits Maine in early August, that means, A, time to start putting out Halloween candy at the drugstore, and B, back-to-school days. People are buying their trapper keepers, Jesse. What do you got? You got all your school? applies for the coming school year, Jesse?

John, I keep three ring binders ready at all times. What was your favorite thing to get to re-up on for back to school? Like new sneaks, maybe some new pens and pencils? Was there something you liked about back to school, or did you just dread it? When I was in elementary school, my Aunt Gail would take me back to school shopping. Yeah. And we would go get like a few clothing items. And that was always really fun because it wasn't,

I didn't always get the chance to go do that kind of thing. Sure. I'll tell you, my number one back to school memory is I got into this fancy progressive private school for middle school, sixth grade, the Nueva school. Ooh. And I was very lucky to get into it. I was very lucky to get all the scholarships I needed to actually be able to attend.

Yeah. And the thing that I remember is the summer before sixth grade started, maybe like three weeks before school started. We got a list of required school supplies. And it had never occurred to me or anyone in my family that there could be such a thing as required school supplies. Right. Like we thought like, yeah, I mean like maybe a pencil. Sure. A pencil.

Even that beyond required that's highly recommended even, you know, but required. You had to have like four different kinds of four different colors of highlighter and all these different three ring binders and all these different books you had to buy and all this different stuff. And I was like, oh, is this what rich people do? buy required school surprise. But it was kind of fun to go to the Office Depot and buy all that stuff, even if it was an extraordinary financial burden in retrospect for my family. No, I mean, look, I don't want to understate what a capitalist rip-off back-to-school season is. It is true that it is sort of like a Toyotathon.

Like, really, we're turning this into a shopping trip? But I have to love buying a new buy. box of pencils. Very satisfying. And I did have a trapkeeper. I kept those traps very well. And mine had a tiger on it, a photo of a tiger. That was very cool. That's sick. I also looked forward to, what was your favorite school supply, Joel, man, was it rubber cement? I had a Zorro lunchbox. No. With a, you know, a canteen in it too. Of course. Zorro lunchbox. Do you ever, do you ever rock a lunchbox? Do you ever rock a lunchbox? lunchbox? I brown bagged it most of the time, Jesse. You never rock a lot of lunchbox? I had a few

lunchboxes in my time. I also brown bagged it. There was a variety of strategies. My most beloved lunchboxes were number one, a super friend's lunchbox that I bought myself with my own money at a junk store near my house called Crim's Crams Quality Junk. I remember it cost a dime and I had to go home to get the dime. Yeah. Like I would like truly like it was 1952. Yeah. That is the 1952.

Once I got done selling my newspapers, I had an extra bright, shiny dime in my pocket. That's right. I went to the drugstore and got myself a phosphate. But I bought that super friends lunchbox for myself. And then, I mean, as you know, and as was discussed years ago on the program, I did have a Brave Star lunchbox,

the sci-fi western cowman television cartoon show where a cow stood on two legs and shot a laser gun. Actually, I guess it was a bull. Yeah. It had horns. It was like a space cowboy epic brave star. Yeah, it was awful. I didn't even like it then.

But you had that lunchbox. And I think that lunchbox is still there at MaxFun HQ, right? On top of the refrigerator, probably. That's where I lived for a long time. Maybe we can include a photo in social media. And I'll give you a photo of a lunchbox that is literally on my refrigerator right now, right here in Maine. This is not one, I mean, this is not the one I had when I was a kid. When I was a kid, I briefly had a Marvel superhero's lunchbox.

And boy, would I marvel at it, turning it over and over and going like, Who are these guys? There were some real also-rans on the Marvel Superheroes lunchbox, starting with Yellow Jacket. He was on the bottom. Yellow Jacket? I didn't know who he was. There's so many mysteries in that Marvel lunchbox.

And a few years ago, I found one at a junk shop. I paid more than a dime for it because though nostalgia is a toxic impulse, oh, it is so delicious. And I have it on top of the refrigerator. I'll send you a picture. years. I'd studied every inch of this lunchbox so many times as a kid and then as an adult, reliving my experience of puzzling over who is the Scarlet Witch? Because at the time,

those were really minor superheroes. That was before they all had streaming television. That was before they all had streaming television services. Exactly. And it was only, and this is the thing, you got to look at things with fresh eyes. because I showed this lunchbox to my now adult son and he goes, why is Spider-Man hanging from a rope? And sure enough, I'd never seen this,

even though I'd looked at it so many times as a child and now as an adult. Spider-Man's on the cover of this thing. He's front and center, right? Because he's a major Marvel Subaru. Spider-Man isn't hanging from his trademark webbing. He's hanging from a piece of groady rope. I'll send you a picture of it.

It's pretty good. I can explain that, John. Yeah. Well, when you're doing a cover shoot for a lunchbox, yeah, not everybody is going to show up. So you just get the costumes and you get some body doubles. Yeah. And you just have them show.

You know, just put them in the outfits and have them to do whatever. But ultimately, only Spider-Man shoot spiderwebs out of his wrist. So you just got to give Joe Shlemiel a row. Got to give Joe Shlemiel a rope. Jennifer Marmer, you're part of the J-Squod. Did you bring lunch to school? Did you buy lunch at school? A mix.

A mix of, you know. Did you rock a box? In elementary school, I did. And then at some point in middle school, it was deeply uncool to have an actual lunchbox. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. So, yeah. Do you remember what lunchbox you had in elementary?

I think I had an Aladdin one. Oh. Or maybe I'm just remembering the Aladdin brand of lunchbox. Both would make sense, I think. I wish I did remember, I guess, I know at the time it was very important to me what the lunchbox was, but not important enough to make a deep impression now. I qualified for free school lunch when I was in high school. I went to public high school.

Before that, I had not gone to a school that had a cafeteria. but my high school did have a cafeteria, sort of. And I qualified for free lunch because of my parents' lack of income. Yeah. But I would bring my lunch anyway. And then you would just go get the free lunch and see if there was anything that anyone would want to eat in it. And usually that only meant chocolate milk. Like usually it was just, you would look at the rest of it and go, no.

I remember occasionally eating the egg rolls. Oh. But it was a dire scene in that San Francisco Unified School District, free lunch situation. Can I ask you one more question before we get into the docket? This goes around the horn. I've seen this discuss online a little bit. Some people remember this very distinctly. Some people are like, what are you talking about?

Were any of you ever instructed to wrap your textbooks in brown paper bags, to cover them, to create a cover. to create a cover out of brown paper bags. Yes. You remember this, Jennifer Marmer? I'm not imagining this. No, not at all. I remember. We had to cover our books.

Yep. Joel, you remember as well? Yep. Not with paper bags, but they actually had... Well, in Maine, you would do it with the scallops. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it depends whether you went to a school where you provided the school books

or the school provided the school books. When I went to that fancy private middle school, we had to be. buy books for school. Whoa. That is wild. Yeah, and they didn't care whether we covered them or not. No, no, no. We were getting, in the Brookline Public Schools, we were getting

our textbooks and we were instructed on how to take paper grocery bags and transform them into book covers, which would protect the books and also give you an opportunity to perfect your drawing of

Wolverine and the doing your name in bubble letters. Also writing the cool S. Or some people know it as the Stozy S. The Stozy S? You mean the brand of fashion? I don't think they actually use that logo. It's, we don't know.

I think this has to be a Southern California thing. It's not a Southern California thing. I actually bought, I'm going to share a photo with all of you. I would actually love for you to draw a cool S on a piece of paper and show it to us. Okay, fine. You think you can do that? Yeah, absolutely.

In fact, I, when I was visiting Brooklyn and staying for the Bell House show for Judge John Hodgman night court. Oh, yeah, a few months ago. I was bopping around Park Slope and there was a cute little shop and I bought some gold color earrings that were the cool S and I get all kinds of compliments on them. and my son told me that the girls at his school draw that still in 2026. You mean here in Southern California? Yes, but the earrings were purchased in New York.

And anyway, those girls are called the baddies. Wait a minute. The girls in your son's school who draw the cool s are called the baddies? I don't know why. How old are we talking about? I mean, older. Like he just. I don't know how old is Megan the Stallion.

In fifth grade maybe, fourth. Did I, wait a minute. Wasn't your son born last week or something? Have I fallen asleep? Do I have a long, a long Rupplestolkin beard? What? First grade. I know.

So this was when he was in kindergarten. He told me about this. Kindergarten baddies. Well, they're not. These girls aren't in kindergarten. They're older. He doesn't really know them. It sounds like these bad.

Please love the good S. Yeah. Okay. I can draw it for y'all. All right. Well, don't show it yet. Well, we'll save that as a tease. All right.

Since we're here, we might as well clear out the docket because we have many, many cases to hear about dorm life, about conflicts with the PTA, about how to keep your class supplies in the classroom. Not talking about covering your books, but hoarding your pens and pencils if you're a teacher. Jesse, why don't we get into the docket? Here's a case from Andrew in Sunbury, Pennsylvania. My daughter is an award-winner. high school forensics and speech competitor. I think she should move up to the top of the food chain.

Debate. Her coach agrees she would be an amazing debater, but my daughter refuses to participate. I know people like what she like, but this young lady loves to debate. She lives for it. She has a gift for it. This is her calling. And she knows it. Yet she resists the push toward becoming a champion. I would like an order that she tried debate for one season. Hmm. Hmm. Before we get into this great debate debate, what were your extracurriculars? I did a couple of debate adjacent activities.

What did you do? I did academic decathlon, which was like 10 quizzes, but one of them was a speaking contest. And School of the Arts, San Francisco School of the Arts, We punched way above our weight class in Academic DeCathlon, despite being a 390 student school or something like that. And, you know, the other big public high schools in San Francisco being 1,500,000 students. Academic Decafalon was sorted where you had to have like three competitors with A averages, three competitors with B averages, and three competitors with C averages.

Yeah. And San Francisco School of the Arts so over. over indexed for smart kids with bad grades. Like so extraordinarily like, I think I maybe was in the B group. Maybe I was in the C group. But I mean, if you can bring in a Trinity Stanavage at your C level, like all those kids at Lowell, the academic high school, they were all A students.

And so we just would clean up in the bottom levels and then, you know, do okay in the top. But that was like, that was like we'd show up to test day. Like there was other high schools where it would be like a thing that you went to twice a week and prepared for all the exams and blah, blah, blah. We just thought it would be funny if we all showed up to this test and then did okay. So we would go do that.

And then junior state of America was the closest thing because that really was like a debate club. It was like an issue debate thing. And again, at our high school, we didn't really go to meetings, But we did go to like the events where you would like, where the school would rent a van or something, you go to Sacramento and do these debates and make out. And you think that's what Andrew in Sunbury, Pennsylvania really wants for his daughter? Some makeout opportunities with other debaters from other schools?

I did, again, like we wouldn't sign up for the things, but you could be like the extra person. Like there was primary people and then there was. accessory people who you just volunteered when they were sitting there. Right. And it was real fun. It was fun to meet Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren, as discussed on a past Judge John Hodgman, who was so nice to us. But it stopped being fun when I made a girl cry because I advocated for the legalization of gambling just because no one else was volunteering.

And it turned out that her father was a gambling addict. Oh, no. So she was just in the audience crying. And here's the thing. If I understand correctly, you know, when, you know, competitive debate at the high school or other, you know, in collegial level, I suppose to, you don't, you didn't personally want to legalize gambling, right, Jesse? No.

And what's crazy about competitive debate at the high school level is there's all these categories and types of debate. So, like, one part, one segment in high school. school debate, as I understand it, is basically stand-up comedy? It's called humorous interpretation, I think. There's also this type of debate. There's like two main types of debate. One is how well can you make your point. Right. One is sort of like it's, it's scored like it was a figure skating program. Uh-huh. But without the artistic interpretation. part. Uh-huh. So just the judges just put a checkmark next to your name every time you make a

valid point in support of your argument. Yeah. And then just whoever gets the most points wins. Okay. And so they talk super fast like the micromachines guy. Oh, because it's, it's quantity more than quality or quantity counts. Right. Got you. I mean like they literally talk as fast as they can. Like I'm not playing. Like if we play a video clip of a teen do it. this, it will be the micro machines guy, but about the Second Amendment or whatever. So there's all these different, and I think like Shakespeare monologues is one. Like, it's like a whole world of different categories in these high schools that have 5,000 students.

You know what I mean? Well, I'm sure that people who have done it and continue to do it, people like what they like and they love what they love and they probably love it. In the context of our current society, however, this whole thing makes me feel very queasy. It just feels like, oh yeah, we're going to train you to argue positions that you don't hold in bad faith in order to win arguments. It just seems like a rehearsal for social media for bad takes and hot roasts. And there's so much hot air out there at this point. I don't know why you would encourage your daughter.

or anyone you care about to go learn how to argue principles that you don't hold. I don't know if you know this, John, but these days high school debate competitions are actually held at folding tables on college campuses. Where they say things like, I think women are stupid, prove me wrong or whatever, that kind of mean? Is that what we're talking about? Yeah, that's basically what we're talking about. I just, it's just, you know, I just think that we need a little bit more good faith representation of our own principles and ways of living rather than learning how to beat people and arguments. But, you know, if you love doing it, and obviously people do, I mean, obviously talking real fast to get points, that is not applicable to any other part of life.

It's not like you're training yourself to logical thinking at that point. You are engaging in a very esoteric exercise that exists only in this one world where you have to talk like a super fast micromachines guy in order to make as many points as you can. That's its own thing. And if you love doing that thing, then you love doing that thing. And I love you for it. But Andrew, your daughter, doesn't seem to love it. It says here that you believe she lives for it, that you believe she has a true gift for it,

that you believe that this is her calling. Sounds like you're trying to win a debate here. Because I'm not hearing her side of this. And I don't think the debate is telling people how they should feel about how they live their lives. Me personally, Andrew. I mean, I know you want your daughter to thrive. But if she doesn't want to do it, why would you want to force her to do it? I don't get it.

People want people to be champions. Being a champion is a fool's errand. Here we go. Tell me more. Why would you send your child to be a champion? Number one, they're not going to become a champion. Whoa. Some are.

It has to happen. Yeah, but the rest don't. Right. So why are you sending your child to do that? Why not send your child to something that doesn't have champions? There's a lot of that. I was in a thing in high school where on Saturdays, we would go and go to the Embarcadero movie theater.

or the Castro or something and watch an art movie. Yeah. And then discuss it afterwards. Oh. Send your child to that. That was so awesome.

I saw so many movies. Also, you don't have to send your child to anything. You can make opportunities available to them to explore different interests. And if they tune into one and love, doing it, then that's, you know, that's what they do, right? You don't have to, you don't have to direct their path for them. John, you know where I dropped my kid off this morning? No. Art, art movie discussion club?

Clown camp. There you go. Is one of your kids going to become a champion clown? I think so. Why do my kids just get to become Bobby Hill in that episode of King of the Hill or he becomes a rodeo clown. Are you going to become one of those horrible clown pageant parents? Like, if you don't come back as king clown, don't come back at all. I'm raising circus folk. Andrew and Sunbury, Pennsylvania, look, obviously you love your child. And I bet your child loves you.

And yet it is your child's choice as to what her calling is, not yours. and I think that if she enjoys doing forensics and speech and she enjoys doing competition, let her do that. But just because you've decided debate is the main one, the top of the food chain, as you put it, it doesn't mean that she feels the same way. And that's a lot of being a parent is getting out of the way, getting yourself out of the way.

And looking at it, you know, I saw something we were talking about earlier, like looking at things with fresh eyes. there's a meme that was populating my algorithm, scenes from the wire, the wonderful HBO crime television show about the dissolution of institutions in Baltimore. And if you haven't watched it, you've got to watch it. But Bunk, one of the detectives,

encourages Kima, the other detective on the squad. You got to look with soft eyes, soft eyes. When you're examining a crime scene or you're looking at any situation, don't look with hard eyes. Don't look for something. Soften your view. Soften your focus.

And let the tableau of what you're looking at show you something. And that's what you've got to do with kids too. You've got to look at them with soft eyes. Don't look at them at who you think they should be. Look at who they're showing you who they are. So that's my, I think I won that debate. Would you say? Jennifer Marmon, did I win that debate?

How many tens did I get on my style and execution? 10s across the board. I could have talked faster, though, I bet. That's not what this was, though. That was a different event. If anyone loves that style of debate, you can go back and re-listen to that at two-time speed. On the topic of letting high schoolers make their own choices,

something from Barry in Clayton, North Carolina. My son Owen just started high school in a prestigious baccalaureate program. You guys are going to have to explain that to me. It's a great achievement, but his new school is half an hour away. He misses his friends from middle school and wants to transfer back to his district high school to be with them. I say he should stick it out. It's a great program. It will make him stand out on his college

applications. In the coming years, he'll be doing more interesting things, like going to Denmark. He just needs to get through this year. I would like you to order Owen to stay in the program and put more of an effort into socializing. I have to say, I did not receive a degree in high school. So can you guys tell me what a baccalaureate program is? I'm not sure I know what it is either. I mean, I'm guessing it seems like a, like, first of all, he's going to a different school. So maybe that school is a private school or charter school is not going to his district school, Owen. And I guess it seems like maybe like what we would call a gifted and talented or advanced placement school, right? Fancy. Somehow it's a little fancier. And I get the impression that,

that Owen is not making a lot of friends there either because he still wants to be hanging out with his old friends, which is he seems perfectly natural. And obviously this baccalaureate program, baccalaureate, what does that mean? What does it mean, Joel? Getting the kid ready for college? Like a prep school type situation. Yeah, that's what I would think. Yeah, baccalaureate means a bachelor's degree, it says here. So, yeah, it's like a college prep, maybe probably a little bit more intense academically.

and I guess they're going to send these kids to Denmark? This is a good lesson for Barry and Clayton, North Carolina. This might not be Owens' only chance to go to Denmark. But before we do and go into that, I went through my whole life to Brookline Public Schools. We didn't have middle schools there because middle schools are stupid. We had K through 8. I went to the Heath School.

It's now been renamed to something else. And then Brookline High School. And there was never any question about where we're going to go. And I grew up going to school with all the same people. for most of it. I never switched schools. Jesse, Jennifer, did you ever switch schools in a way that was traumatic to you or something? I switched schools. I started at a K-3-8 school, switched schools in sixth grade, and then switched schools pretty dramatically for high school.

And it was a mixed bag, I would say. When I went to that fancy private middle school, I had a lot of culture shock. because I was not from the suburbs and not a rich kid. And I mean, like, I can only imagine when I hear stories about people who are in that position and are also people of color, like, I can only imagine what it would be like if I wasn't a white kid. Right. Like I was already the poor kid and the city kid. If I wasn't a white kid, I can't imagine what it would have been like.

So hard. But on the, and in a lot of ways that program with its focus on academic excellence did not fit my priorities, which lay more in goofing around. And frankly, retrospectively, I wish I had gone to a more goofing around-centric school. Yeah. But I think as a kid who had a hard time finding other smarty-pants kids who weren't high achievers. Right. And thus boring. I think going to that really fancy middle school was actually kind of great because I

it was normal to be super smart there. And so there was a real spectrum of amounts of, I'm 12, but I already know I'm going to grow up to be a lawyer. And some of the super smart kids who were also goof, ups, like me, a guy who did not graduate from that middle school, but was socially promoted out, are still my close friends. And once in a while, I'll still see, you know, the other day I was looking at the Sklar Brothers social media and, you know, they used to host a sort of mystery science theater 3,000 television, style television show with classic ESPN clips called Cheap Seats, very funny show.

And I saw my middle school friend Evan Holka on the National Spelling Bee, where he quite famously asked, got a word that he didn't know. asked all of the questions you're allowed to use, like, what's the part of speech and can you use it in a sentence? Yeah. And then asked if he could buy a vowel. Yeah. And, you know, there was a lot of kids like that in my middle school. And I remain very grateful for that. Just as I remain really grateful for having gone to an arts high school where the academics were very weak because it was just, you know, it was an urban public high school and not the high school. And not the high school. academic achievement urban public high school, of which there is one in San Francisco. Right.

But it was all kids that wanted to be there. And I think the fact that the kids wanted to be there and were motivated by something was so meaningful in my experience of high school, not because I thought I was going to grow up to become an actor, although certainly I'm SAG eligible today. To this very day. And, you know, I just got a check for eight cents for my appearance on Archer as Hall of Mirrors guy. Many people haven't gotten a check for five cents from Archer or any place. So that's an accomplishment.

But being in a high school where the kids chose and wanted to be there, particularly in the context of the urban public schools that I was qualified for that were, you know, dominated by people who were required. to be there by law but otherwise didn't want to be there, was a real joy and a pleasure and to be in a school where I was among people who shared interests like mine. Right. So I guess to me, my question for Barry and Owen

is, is Owen in this school because he shares qualities with those kids that he is going to school with. And his adjustment period is just about the real challenge of going to a very different school in a different place. Right. I mean, that was true for me just to go to School of the Arts,

where, you know, it was other public school kids from the city, but it was also ones I'd never met before. I didn't know anyone when I started in high school. And that's a tough transition that takes six to 18 months, I would say. but if he's going to this school because he is the kind of kid who wants to be among these kinds of peers, who wants to be able to access this kind of stuff, even if, you know, you give some allowance for the fact that this is a 14-year-old who may or may or may not know everything they want and may or may not have all the context that their parents have about

schools and so on and so forth, like, then that is a reason to stick it out, because it will change in terms of your comfort with your peers and stuff. That does change. Yeah. Even I, when I was in the fancy middle school with rich suburban kids who had front row season tickets to the Golden State Warriors and tiny refrigerators full of drinks in a different part of their house than the kitchen, or that really blew my mind. Yeah, you're talking about a family with a butler's pantry. Yeah, I guess. I don't even know what it's called. But, you know, it took a while to get used to that. But even there, I made really close friends because I shared those qualities with my peers that I might not have shared if I was going to Horace Mann middle school, the middle school by my house.

You know, those kids jump me on the street more than one time. So, you know, there are, there are reasons to go to a specialized school. And there are reasons to expect that one will be able to manage the social transition. that's part and parcel of going to a new school. But if those aren't goals that Owen actually has, if those aren't peers that Owen actually wants to be with, the kind of peers that Owen actually wants to be with, well, then, yeah, screw it.

There is a lot of missing information here, right? So let's just start with some pretty reason. good faith assumptions. Barry loves Owen and wants the best for Owen and Owen loves Barry and wants the best for Owen. I hope that Owen is not thinking of what's best for Barry because that kind of parentification isn't appropriate for a first year high school student. Right. So we'll start with that premise. Well, there are all kinds of reasons to switch schools. I'm glad I never had to because at any age, life change like that can be exciting and valuable and meaningful and important and sometimes inevitable because someone's moving across the country or someone's got

a new job or one school is just not okay or whatever it is, you know. And there is value and virtue in what we call sticking it out, right? Situation that you don't love, you give it some time, you make sure that you're, you know what you like about it, you know what you don't like about it, and you make a decision. It's totally natural to miss the friends that you've left behind from middle school, but they could have gone to many different schools too. Not everyone's going to stick together all the time. All these things are natural and there is value in sticking it out.

That said, we don't know. There are things we don't know. Yeah, this school has a fancy name that I had to look up on the internet. to figure out what it is. It seems like it's academically advanced. And for the most part, if a kid is academically advanced, they should be going to a school or, you know, engaged. Let's not even say advanced, right?

But if they're really engaged in academics or a particular field, it's good for them to go to a school that matches their level of engagement, right? And if that were true about Owen's experience, I think that he would probably be more enthusiastic about staying in this school. But what we don't know about this school is, what if the other students in the school are jerks? What if the teachers are a-holes? What if all the academic rigor of the school is undone by the fact that the culture of the school is oppressive or backward or conservative or who knows what? Just not a match. I mean, I think, Jesse, you made an important point talking about your friend Evan Hulka, one of the greatest names of all time.

incredible speller. I learned as much from my fellow students as I learned from my teachers in elementary school, high school, and certainly in college. The people who inspired me to find my interests and pursue them actively and with engagement were often incredible teachers, but equally often incredibly inspiring peers. Missing your friends is not a babyish thing necessarily. Again, I don't know the situation. I don't know the relationship between Owen and his peers. But his peers, his friends, they may have a bond that is similar to going to watch an art movie together and talking about it afterward.

They may be helping each other find and engage with the things that they truly love. I don't know. This is also missing information. But part of the conversation, it's all part of the conversation, I think, that Barry should be having with Owen as any parent has with their kids. Because I'll tell you what, going to a baccalaureate school is not going to get you in a good college. Whatever even a good college means right now. When we were clearing out a basement a few years ago, when our daughter, who's now an adult, was applying to college, one thing became very clear to me very quickly

is that it is really, if you are someone who wants to apply to what is considered to be a prestigious or academically good college, right? Whatever that means, it's almost impossible to get into those schools. And once you do, it doesn't mean that you've got a career or a future in place for you the way it used to. Barry, you're probably not as elderly as me,

but you probably are operating on some outdated information with regard to what makes a college prestigious and what the value of a college education is, both in practical and impractical terms. A degree does not mean that you get a job or a guaranteed future. even in professional fields that traditionally have offered paths to financial success, if that is something that you even value. And, you know, we were clearing out that basement, and to my surprise, around that time,

our daughter was applying to Yale University, an accredited four-year college in Southern Connecticut, that I attended. And as we were clearing out that basement, she found some old school record of mine where she saw my senior year GPA. And I don't like to swear on this podcast, so I won't tell you what she said to me when she saw that I had, I don't know, a 3.7, maybe a 3.85. She swore at me angrily. So how dare you? How dare you get into this college with a 3.85? because she knew that she had no guarantee of getting into that college,

nor even the smartest, most academically, you know, successful, quote-unquote, friends of hers, even with a 4.0, the stuff you need to do, quote-unquote, to get into these colleges, I just said, look, it was a different time. It was a different time for a white boy in Brookline. You could just apply to Ivy League schools and kind of had a good shot of getting in. Now, there are a whole lot of reasons why that's not true anymore, but you need to adjust your expectations if you haven't already Barry with regard to this college thing. Because first of all, Frosh, first year, freshman, whatever you want to call it, that's too early to be thinking about

college. It is too early to be thinking about college. Why? Because no matter how what good school you go to, what other kind of name brand academic prep school you go to, no matter how perfect your extracurriculars are, how perfect your grade point is starting in first year, none of that is going to make the difference for you, getting into a competitive college, if that is what Owen wants to do. And by the way, it might not be what Owen wants to do. Our other child has no interest in going to a competitive college. He found other things, and I mean, he's going to college and he's thriving, but it took him a lot of time, more time than it happened to for his older sister, for him to tune into what makes

him really happy and to pursue it. And you will not get the attention of a college admissions office if you are a perfect student and you went to the right school. The thing that I think is true. And by the way, our daughter did end up going to the college she wanted to go to, but only after she had been waitlisted and her heart was broken because she didn't think she was going I get in. She, you know, she's one of the smartest people I've ever met. Certainly smarter than me. She certainly had a better grade point average. And, you know, I think she would say, yeah, I snuck in. Snuck in. I got a message for fancy colleges. Yeah. First of all, I'm glad I didn't get into you because I'm glad I went to college with Jennifer Marmer. There you go. And Jordan Morris.

Yeah. And other people. who I truly love. I also want to say, if your college is so freaking great, then let more people in because they'll benefit from your freaking great school. If your college is so freaking great, then take students who are less qualified because you're going to be so good at helping teach them things. If your college is so freaking great, why are you letting kids in that went to Phillips Andover who already got a college education in high school for 100,000? thousand dollars a year when you could be letting in kids who had disadvantages, not just economic or cultural disadvantages, but other disadvantages, or kids who just didn't figure it out and could

use help figuring it out. And guess what? If your college is so freaking great at it, then you're uniquely positioned to help them out more. That's what I have to say about it. And also, don't send somebody to my house to interview me who's scared to walk around in my neighborhood. We're recording this in the middle of August, so I'm not sure when Barry wrote this, you know, wrote this letter. But I am in general an advocate of finishing things out. Like, schools have natural breaks. They're called summers. I love them. I would encourage Owen to finish out the school year and then have a real conversation about whether this is the right place for him or not. And if you decide, and Owen decide, and Owen

decides that he wants to continue at this school, but he misses his friends. You, Barry, have an incredible opportunity to help him out and make sure that he sees his friends a whole lot by giving him rides and stuff if he needs them. You know, inviting the friends over. Make sure that he sees them. That's all. Hey, when we come back, Jennifer Marm, you're going to show us a cool ass or what? Heck yeah.

We'll be back with more Back to School docket at just a second. Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We're clearing the docket. Here is a case from Emergency Pepper 3537 in the R-slash-Teachers subreddit. Okay. I'm a teacher who's tired of my pencils disappearing. Or worse, a student will borrow one and return it broken. So now I have a system.

If a student needs a pencil, I take one of their shoes as a deposit. Incredible. If they return the pencil broken, They do get their shoe back, but they can't borrow a pencil from me again. People keep reminding me how cheap pencils are. They're missing the point. I don't care if pencils cost $1 per hundred. I'm not using my money to buy pencils, period.

I mean, this one really speaks, John, to my, that middle school experience I had where I had to buy seven kinds of highlighter. Yeah. First of all, props to emergency pepper for putting that cool, weird dad. pun in there about how people who say pencils are cheap are missing the point get it uh-huh uh-huh it's good right Jennifer marmer yeah real good that was a good one but yeah I mean I we were talking about pens and pencils before I I covet all my pens and pencils because they're always walking away someone's always taking my pens and pencils walking away with them what's the thing that bothers you the most that walks away in your house you know what I mean like a I don't know

whether it's a soda pop that you're saving for yourself in the fridge or a favorite, a favorite pen or pencil. Painter's tape. Painters tape. You have painters tape that walks away in your house. Someone grabs it and just walks away with it. I keep painters tape in the Kitchen Island's drawer. Yeah.

Along with a permanent marker. Yeah. Because when I put things into the freezer, I label the storage container with the painter's tape, so I don't have to write directly on the storage container. I love it. When I make a big crock pot full of something, and I got a big slow cooker, so I'd be making stews and whatnot in there. You're always making a crock.

I'm always. Everyone says I'm a crock. Yeah. And I will, you know, it's usually my wife and I eating it. Sometimes my wife and me and our children. And so that big crock pot is often four servings worth. four meals worth. So, you know, one will go on the table.

Maybe one goes in the refrigerator to be eaten later that week and two go into the freezer, something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I need that painter's tape when it goes into the freezer to label that container. And if it's not there, I have to put it into the freezer without a label. And then I forget what it is. And it makes me totally nuts.

That's why I keep it in one particular place. And my children think it's there so that they can use it for projects. Oh, what are they trying to be creative all the time? You think Judge John Hodgman isn't stocking up on hordes and hordes of blue gel ink ballpoint pens that are thick marking one millimeter style? Of course I am, but they still walk away. The real problem here, emergency pepper, is that people are telling you that pencils are cheap when they should be aghast, the teachers have to buy their own pencils for the schoolroom, which is insane and yet profoundly common and not just pencils, but classroom, all classroom materials, decorations, paper,

whatever it is. And that's another thing that we do wrong as a society. There is an organization called DonorsChoose that I've heard a lot about. I've not done a lot of deep dives into it. So if it's secretly AI or terrible or something, let me know. But DonorsChoose, I believe, is an organization that raises money to distribute to teachers to offset those costs. My friend, maybe our friend, I don't know if your pals with him, W. Camel Bell has done a lot of work with donors Jews. Yeah.

He represented them on Celebrity Jeopardy when he won Celebrity Jeopardy. Well, yeah. But I think even that model is astonishing. It is astonishing that it would be an act of charity to have school supplies for students. Yeah. These are standard school supplies. So, you know, I don't want to put the responsibility for this onto an individual teacher because it's not the individual teacher's responsibility. And that is indeed the source problem.

but schools need to provide supplies to students. And, you know, when I mentioned, like, this reminds me of the fancy private middle school I went to, for many of my peers at that fancy private middle school, it was not a problem that they had this huge list of $400 worth of stuff that you had to buy in order to start the school year. It was, I mean, I was joking about it, but like, it was a real problem. problem for my family that I had to buy this stuff. In fact, I think that my mom and separately my dad had to ask people for money to pay for the stuff that I had to buy so that they could make their rent that month and buy that stuff. And indeed, it is an outrageous request of students' families,

including in parent-teacher associations and so forth, to provide these supplies, not least because it promotes unequal access to education. And there is a legal right in the United States to a free and appropriate public education. It's called FAPE. Free and appropriate public education, that is a statutory requirement. And pencils for kids are part of a free and appropriate public education. You cannot teach children without them having writing implements. And it is the school and the school district and the government's responsibility.

to provide them. Whatever you need to do to keep your pencils in your pencil box emergency pepper, you do it. Here's something from LMNOP 131 on the Max Fund subreddit. Should PTA social gatherings be at a family-friendly brewery or is a park slash playground more appropriate? We are split on this decision. PTA is, of course, Paul Thomas Anderson. That's right. I guarantee. Feature Association, whatever, these are orgs that get together specifically to raise money for what we're talking about. School supplies, classroom supplies, some professional development for teachers and stuff. And, you know, I hosted some auctions to raise money for our kids elementary school.

And it was a great opportunity for the parents to get together and usually get a little drunk. Now, see, this is what I don't understand. What do you care if it's a family-friendly brewery or a park or a playground? Are these kids involved at the PTA meeting? I guess that is the implication here, right? Is that what I'm getting from this, Jennifer? That's how I read it. Like, if it's a social gathering,

I think they're trying to do more like, hey, let's all hang out, get to know each other outside of the drop-off line with the kids. But with the kids in attendance of these events? That's what it seemed like. Otherwise, why are a group of parents going to a park to meet? If you love breweries, I salute you. What's a great brewery that you like?

Fogtown. Fogtown is a great brewery here in Maine. And Strong Brewing Company right here on the peninsula is terrific as well. I get it. And I understand the vibe. The vibe is not mine. I do not like beer. I do not like high top chairs.

I do not like getting my knees bonked by Black Labs or children running around. And I also don't like being outside a whole lot in gardens of any kind. But there are people who love that sort of thing. and I support all small businesses and people are following their passion and their interests. So good for them. And I support all bald guys with beards. There you go. That's you, Joel.

He's trying to make up with you, Joel. That's okay. Okay. No offense taken. I think there's some offense taken. But anyway. But is that an appropriate place for a PTA meeting? Yeah, it is.

It's fine. Great. Why not? What's the point? Let's take a break. We'll have a few more back-to-school cases in just a second. Judge Hodgman, we're taking a quick break from clearing the docket. And, John, you are headed back out for an evening on the Grace Bailey, right? That's right, Jesse. The Grace Bailey is the historic wooden two-masted schooner here in Maine that is partly owned by our dear friend Mark Evan Jackson of the thrilling adventure hour. Jesse, you and I took a four-night cruise on the Grace Bailey earlier this spring.

and we had a wonderful time. Make sure to check out Jesse's Instagram story about it over there at Jesse Thorne, very famous, that wonderful Instagram handle that he's got. And I actually just saw our beautiful Grace Bailey on the water on Saturday afternoon. It was great to see Captain Sam and First Mate Maya and Second Mate Bridget and all the gang there.

And I will be joining them again, just for one night in September, sometime between September 13 and the 16th, Grace Bailey will be anchoring in the harbor near the coastal town where I sometimes live in Maine, and I will be joining for an night and coming aboard that evening to do some readings from Vacation Land and or Moby Dick and to drink some grog and maybe sing a shanty. All of the sailings on the Grace Bailey are a wonderful time, whether you see me there or not, and you can find out more about it at Sale Grace Bailey.com.

If you're looking for some more nautical stuff outside of actually visiting a 144-year-old schooner in Maine, why don't you read Moby Dick with me? I'm continuing to read aloud from Moby Dick in my patented terrible Maine accent over on my substack, where you can subscribe to that at hodgeman.substack.com. Jesse Thorne, what have you got going on? For those of you in Southern California, I am taking part in this really cool film festival called The Friend of the Fest Pod that American Cinemathec is putting on. I am so excited that on August 21st, which is a Friday at the Los Felis 3 here in Los Angeles,

I am presenting as part of that festival a screening of my favorite film, A Thousand Clowns. It's a film that's really hard to get a hold of. I'm so gratified that they found a print of it so that I could show it. It's a movie about a comedy writer who is the guardian to his 13-year-old nephew. And when child protective services comes to take his child away because the comedy writer has no job and the child is not being well taken care of according to their formulation, the comedy writer has to learn to make sacrifices in order to care for people that he loves. And the kid who is a real briefcase carrier, like John and I were when we were 13, has to learn to be a child and not be responsible for his uncle or his absent mother. It stars Jason Robards and Barbara Harris, both of whom are totally amazing in it.

The third star is Mr. Feeney from Boy Meets World, albeit in the early 1960s, and there are no clowns. It is one of the most hilarious and moving movies, I think, is definitely. definitely the best movie about comedy, even though there's, you know, no comedy shows being put on. But it's about the way that someone who has dedicated their lives to being funny and interesting also has to take responsibility for their relationship with others. So, yeah, you can find all the ticket links and everything in maximum ton.org slash events.

And I hope that I will see all Southern Californians there. And if you're not a Southern Californian, you can find the film on a popular video website, even though it is hard to find in a lot of other formats. So I hope that you will do that, too, if you don't live in SoCal. But maximum fun.org slash events to grab tickets to that showing at the Las Phelis 3. It's going to be a great time. Sounds amazing. I'm sorry that I'm not going to be in California, but I look forward to hearing all about it. Let's get back to the show.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. All right. Tyler in Las Vegas says, No way. I'm sorry, Jesse. I haven't seen the cool S yet. Oh,

Jennifer Marmer. Show me the cool S. I've never done this like facing. Okay. So hold on. All right. To turn my whole bod around here. Okay.

I'm sorry. Got a post it thing. Dicke note. Not generic. Okay. So we take, got the Sharpie. Take,

um, make three. lines, make three more lines under it. Then we connect there and there. And then there and there for the audience. I'm sorry who's listening. I'm not describing this in a way that's helpful at all. Just go to our YouTube at Judge John Hodgman Pod and you can see it. It's a cool. S. Joel. Baddies. I'm a baddie. Yeah. Jennifer Marron is a batty. I think if you say that you're a batty. That means you're not a batty. That's cool. Well, you're not saying it.

Joel and Jesse and I are saying it. Wait, are we the baddies? Okay. Tyler in Las Vegas says, my husband says I must have been the weird kid for being friends with the lunch lady at my school. I was just being friendly. He says it isn't normal and only the weird kid would know about the lunch lady's family and hobbies. Who's right? Was I the Weird kid. No. Obviously, Tyler, you are super cool. If you were talking to lunch ladies and you know about their hobbies and their family, what an incredible, curious, interesting person you were who was interested in other people. And what a, I mean, look, I was going to have a discussion, but I'm just laying down the law here. I'm speaking as a judge. It takes one to know on what a judgey creep Tyler, Tyler's husband is for being so judgy about Tyler's natural. curiosity about other human beings. Who is your favorite adult at your school? Could have been a teacher, but maybe not a teacher.

I mean, shout out to Mr. Crawford. Yeah. Mr. Crawford, Philip Crawford, who was my high school English teacher when he was a student teacher, and in whose class I first impressed my now wife, I think by me swearing. She thought that was cute. Wow. But Mr. Crawford was just out of teaching school or just finishing teaching school at San Francisco State, which was right next to our campus. Yeah.

And he was a women's studies major. And he was a black leather jacket bear who was really into like Phil Specter girl groups and interpreting them as text. And like, you know, Carrie, the movie Carrie and other non, other non novel text. or interpretation, particularly from a women's studies perspective. He was a really nice guy, a bright guy. And most of all, I think when I was a kid, I mostly just didn't want to be bothered by my teachers. Like, I mostly just wanted teachers that weren't going to, like,

mess up my life or have, feel like I was a disappointment to them. Yeah. But, you know, in particular, the people at the school who are not teachers, who are working in the office, who are cleaning up after you as custodians or who are making you lunch, they make it all go. And acknowledging their humanity is a profoundly decent and human thing to do. That said, Tyler, you were definitely the kid that runs the radio station in Wet Hot American Summer. Yes. There is value and virtue and dignity in all work and all the workers who do it.

And if you are going through school and you think that the guy who cleans up your vomit after you have a stomach bug and you puke on the gym floor isn't cool, you've got to learn. Learning comes from all different sorts of people. Wisdom comes from all different humans who surround you. Take the lessons where you get them. Here's something from Michael in Chattanooga. When I was in college, I was a member of a secret society called The Herd. Every member of the Herd identified with a specific animal. This is not a secret society.

This is a subreddit. And it is an NSFW subreddit. Every member of the herd identified with a specific animal. We held secret meetings, attended herd banquets, and other fun stuff. I always wanted my friend John to join the herd, but he always rolled his eyes. He thought it was just a dumb bro thing, but he was wrong. Please order John to recite the secret words so I may finally welcome him to the herd. He needs to know the animal he is deep inside.

Whoa. I did a lot of searching on secret society named the herd in Tennessee. I do not know if this was a real thing, if this is a joke or if this is real. I do love the idea of having gone to a school. Yale University, which I've spoken of a little bit before, where they have secret societies that are highly theatrical and highly self-important. The idea that a secret society would be called the herd, literally like John's resistance to the herd mentality is really funny to me. I love that. Like, yeah, we're, we're apart from the rest of society and we're elevated.

We're called the herd. We're a bunch of animals that take pleasure. in each other's company and take safety in each other's company by excluding others until one of us gets killed by a lion or whatever. What's amazing to me about the herd is like, only one of these guys gets to be Mighty Eagle. Yeah. A couple of these people are just like, I don't know, ant eater. If you are going to join the herd, what would your animal be, do you think, Jesse? We've talked a lot about like tuning into your inner happiness and your inner happiness and your inner. You're, you know, the thing that makes you the most excited to be alive.

What kind of animal do you find when you tune into your inner self? I'm just scared bunny. Scared bunny. There are a lot of rabbits around Maine this season, Joel. Have you seen them around? No, I really have it. We've got a lot of bunnies on our lawn. Yeah.

I'll send you a video of a bunny that has been eating. My wife was a whole human being in our own right garden. Like, really on the twitchy nose, bunny. stealing vegetables from our garden. She's so mad at this rabbit. I'm like, this rabbit's doing exactly what it was meant to do. And look at that thing on the trail cam. So cute.

I love this bunny. I'm going to send you that video. What about you, Jennifer Marmer? A koala. Oh. I don't know why. I hope it's not because you have chlamydia or whatever all those squalas have. Oh, I didn't even think about that.

Gonorrhea? No, thankfully. Like 90% of all koalas have gonorrhea or chlamydia. Is it because you're adorable on the outside, but ready to physically hurt anyone who comes close? Yeah. And I like the smell of eucalyptus. Yeah. Wow, that's cool.

Joel, you got one? Sloth. Yeah. My nickname in elementary school was Hedgehog, and it feels very appropriate to me. I can see that. You know, introvert. Sometimes I'm out there out in the hedge row

sniffing around, extroverted, curious. Sometimes I just curl up into a spiky ball and doesn't want to be bothered. Yeah. Yeah. Well, either way, Michael and Chattanooga, I don't know how to tell you

but college is over. Nostalgia's a toxic impulse. You can buy as many Marvel superheroes lunchboxes as you ever want, but you cannot go back to school again. The herd has been dispersed. John cannot be inducted into the herd unless you're going to start your own, your own new herd. You know what? I'm going to support that. Start your own secret society of college graduates,

write some new secret words, and invite John to join you at the brewery. That's a fun thing to do if you're in 20s. But you know what? Not everyone wants to join a herd. Some people. They want to stalk the prairies alone. Were there secret societies at UC Santa Cruz? there weren't even fraternities and sororities. Good point. I made a big show of not being interested in being invited to a secret society at Yale because I was like the other John, the John and Michael from Chattanooga's letter, the John who didn't want to belong to an exclusive club.

I wouldn't want to be a member of a club that would have me as a member. But in my heart, of course, I did want to go, did want to be in a secret society. And then my friend Blake said, do you want to join my senior society? The one I'm a part of? Would you be interested if I put your name up for nomination? I'm like, oh, well, yeah, you know what? I know I've been saying no, because I'm too cool for school.

But maybe which one is it? And he said, St. Elmo's. No offense to anybody who went to Yale and is a member of St. Elmo's, but I had never heard of this thing before. We got scroll and key. We got book and snake. We got skull and bones. those are the big ones, St. Elmo's. I'm like, where do you meet? He's like, there's an apartment on Edgewood Avenue that we all rent together. I'm like, I'm not going to be in an apartment. No thanks. I lost my chance to be in a secret society. You know why? Because I was a snob, and I apologize. No more snobbery. So anyway, I didn't know myself. I didn't know what would truly make me happy. I was sending out mixed messages. And then I was a snob to my friend Blake and all of his siblings in St. Elmo's.

a third floor walk-up secret society. I should have joined. Say yes more often than no in life. That's my other message for all these kids who are starting back in school. Unless it puts you or someone else in harm or threat of danger, be open to things.

Don't just say no. Unroll. Don't be a spiky hedgehog ball. Be a curious hedgehog forger. All right, go on. Let's get out of here, Jesse. Doc, it's clear. That's it for another episode

of Judge John Hodgman, the show created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman, our social media specialist, Megan Rosati. The podcast is edited by A.J. McKeon, Daniel Spear, our video producer. Our producer is, of course, Jennifer Marmer. Photos from the show posted on our Instagram account. That's Judge John Hodgman.

We're also on TikTok and YouTube, Judge John Hodgman Pod. John and I are also individually on those platforms, as well as on Blue Sky. So come see us on Blue Sky. Follow us, subscribe us, subscribe to us. We got video-only content coming,

et cetera, et cetera. John, what kind of disputes are we looking for these days? Well, Jesse, as mentioned to the top of the show, it is early August, and that means it's Halloween time. Yeah, I know that makes everyone so mad to see the skeletons and candy at the CVS or the Walgreens or the drugstore so early in the season, but

it's unavoidable. And we would love to get your Halloween disputes now so that we can put them into a Halloween episode coming up. Some disputes might be, for example, example, which full-size candy bars are actually better as a fun size. That'd be a hot take we'd like to hear about. What are the hot Halloween costumes this year?

Will they be themed to The Odyssey? Or are you going as the backroom's pirate? Here's a good couple's costume for a Halloween party. One of you dresses Christopher Nolan, the director of the Odyssey. The other one dresses Emily Wilson, the person who translated the Odyssey. And the two of them are having a feud right now. And you can go and see which side the party takes. Send us all over here.

She went on fresh air and said he should have hired a scriptwriter. You know what? I'm not getting drawn into this one. I'd rather judge them than be in them. So why don't you send us your Halloween disputes or your translation disputes to Maximumfund.org. There's a little form you can fill out there. Or just send me an email at Hodgman at maximum fund.org.

It was the first time in, literal years that Terry Gross used that button where it goes the shots fired button that she's got there in the studio at Y Y Y Y Y Y YWY. Pugh, Poo, Poo, Poo!

was the sound I would make when I was drawing my dream house with a laser turret on top of it on the grocery bag covers of my textbooks. Poo, Poo, Poo, Poo, Poo, Poo, Poo, and you know, we want to hear any dispute you've got on any subject. no case is too small. Maximumfund.org

slash JJHO. Send them in. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximum Fun. A worker-owned network of artists-owned shows. Supported directly by you.