Judge John Hodgman - Science Friction

Episode Date: February 19, 2014

Should our defendant give sci-fi a try? This week, with expert witness Jane Espenson (Buffy, Battlestar Galatica, Torchwood, Once Upon a Time)!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, science friction. Krista brings the case against her sister Carrie. She says Carrie won't watch sci-fi because she's afraid of robots in the future, and she's missing out big time because of it. Should Carrie give sci-fi a chance? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. It's true, Jesse. In a way, the seizure was actually a good thing. Let me get in there and take this new picture and look what I found. That's your bullet. See how it's lodged there in the piehole ring? That's where all the major pieholes converge.

What's really fascinating is how it eroded this blood vessel here. In fact, it leaked. It was just the tiniest opening of the pie hole that caused your seizure. It's remarkable, really. Of course, if it happens again, we're talking major hemorrhage, death within minutes. So you better swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?

I guess. whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I guess. You swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he refers to sci-fi as scientifiction? Yes, I guess so. Very well, Judge Hodgman. Krista, Carrie, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can either one of you name the piece of culture i was paraphrasing

as i entered the courtroom carrie i know you will not be able to because you hate science fiction i know you're off the hook god and krista krista i suspect you will not be able to either well that's that just makes me feel bad um i can take a guess and i'll and i'll okay you take a guess but let me tell you why i'm fairly certain a it's incredibly esoteric and b and b i have inside information but go ahead take take your take your guess go ahead well okay i honestly have no idea i'm gonna say the dead zone wrong even though that has nothing Take your guess. Go ahead. Well, okay. I honestly have no idea. I'm going to say The Dead Zone.

Wrong. Even though that has nothing to do with anything we're talking about. Wrong. But I can understand why. It's a good guess. I mean, it's a really solid guess. Like, if you're going to go, like, what are the sci-fi classics that you're going to go to? It's probably going to be either a quote from Terminator 2 or The Dead Zone. No, but The Dead Zone.

I'm so embarrassed now. Christopher Walken plays a brain dude. You know what would have probably made more sense? He's a telepathic, right? Isn't he? A clairvoyant? Yes, if he touches people. If he touches people. And there's a shooting in that one as well.

So the bullet lodged in the brain makes sense and doesn't he have an accident and that's how he gets brain powers i think so i honestly haven't seen the movies we're right we're doing a great i'm we're doing a great uh a great reimagining of the dead zone franchise right now but in fact i was quoting robocop no in fact i was going with the the reimagining that rebooted reimagining battlestar galactica and i knew you wouldn't get it because a you mentioned you've you've been watching it but haven't finished it and it was from one of the final episodes and b it's also incredibly esoteric because it was from my cameo appearance on

Battlestar Galactica in the episode, no exit in which I played the brain surgeon, Dr. Gerard, a role created and written for me by television legend, Jane Espenson, who as an expert on genre of all kind, that is to say fantasy and science fiction. And westerns. And westerns. Well, we'll find out because she's here right now

as an expert witness to comment along with me and hear your case. Jane, welcome. Thank you. Happy to be here. Jane Aspenson, of course, I would argue, came to worldwide Internet and fandom prominence initially as a writer on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Would that be wrong, Jane?

That would not be wrong. Would that have been your big break? Yeah, that was my big break. And then we met, you and I met, just as you had begun writing for Battlestar Galactica, my favorite, my favorite. And then you went on to run Caprica, right? Isn't that correct? I ran Caprica right into the ground. Oh, unfair. Unfair to all culture that that show is not still on. A brilliant show and worth a look-see, absolutely ahead of its time as far as I'm concerned.

Thank you. Because the singularity is happening next week. If we're happening, that show we're on now, it's a show about AI, if that show we're on now, kaboom. That's right. You'd get it on a week before The Singularity. That would be great for sweeps.

And then now you have two jobs now that I believe are ongoing. And if not, you'll correct me. One is that you are a writer and producer on the television show Once Upon a Time. That's right. That is still ongoing, correct? That is ongoing. A major still ongoing, correct? That is ongoing. A major hit television program. On ABC. And then in collaboration with a young man whose name I'm remembering now is Cheeks only, but he has an actual name, doesn't he?

Brad Bell. Right. The creator of the huge hit web series, Husbands. That's right. Which can be seen where? Cwseed.com. It's the CW's digital arm. And it's Brad's show that I am also a writer on. So it's Brad's show. You call that Brad's show?

It's Brad and I created it together, but it's, it's his life, his vision, his, his world. And I, he's very much the showrunner, but boy, I'm proud of it. And it's about, it's about two, two guys. It's a really funny, great show. One of the, one of the best and first good web series that was ever on. I think so. Thank you. I also had a cameo appearance in it, but I had no lines. You learned your lesson from allowing me to be in Battlestar Galactica. We can have him on, but let's make sure that he doesn't say anything. Well, we didn't have any scripted lines for you,

but you ad-libbed some that made the cut. Oh, well. It was a delight, and that's a delightful show. Made the cut. Oh, well. It was a delight, and that's a delightful show. It's about two dudes who are in love and accidentally get married while they're drunk in Vegas. So, Jane, I don't know if you've read the brief that's before this court, but the case is thus.

Krista is a woman who has a sister named Carrie. Krista enjoys science fiction. And I think Krista, I would not be wrong in saying with a bend towards the arc of the science fiction that you enjoy bends towards television and film. Yeah, I enjoy books as well. But probably the stuff that I, you know, ingest the most is TV and film. Right. No one's going to go on a podcast and say they don't enjoy books. I get it. It's like on your resume, you always put hobbies, reading.

I get it. And you're trying to get Carrie, your sister, older or younger sister? Older. Older sister to enjoy science fiction with you. And she, for reasons of her own, probably having something to do with the fact that she loves making her younger sister's life miserable and has done since she was born, refuses not merely to take your recommendations for things to watch, but claims to hate science fiction. Is that incorrect, Carrie? No, that's not incorrect.

All right. Let's try to keep away from double negatives. Just plain, straightforward sentences, please. You are right. John Hodgman is something that is always acceptable to say at any party or gathering. Got it. All right. So Krista, how, how old are, how old are you two? Uh, I'm 27. And, and Carrie, you're 45? Yes. Uh, that's correct. No, I'm 29. You are right, John Hodgman. You're 29. Okay. And, and, and, and any other siblings in your family? Nope. Okay. And where do. And where do you live? I'm in Chicago.

Oh, sorry. That's okay. Krista, you're in Chicago. Carrie, where are you? I'm in Washington, D.C., but we both grew up in Maryland. Okay. All right. Very good.

And what do you do with your life, Carrie? I work for the government. Oh, right. And then unspecified. That's why you hate science. That's why you hate science fiction, because you see too much of it in real life. Perhaps. Yeah.

You're working on cold storage of aliens. Yes. I understand. Say no more. You work in D.C. in the Freemasonic laboratories. Where George Washington is being cloned. Yeah, no, I understand. And Krista, you live in Chicago and you like science fiction. So I'm going to guess that you work part time in a coffee shop and attend improv classes.

That's shockingly close. and attend improv classes? That's shockingly close. I actually am, I work at a call center and I take writing classes, but also improv. All right. I gotcha. And what, and so you understand already what the dynamic here is. Carrie works for the United States government in an unspecified capacity in a way that she felt very uncomfortable saying. So, Krista, what's the what's how long does this go back between you two? Oh, man. Years, probably since we were really little. She was sort of into fantasy stuff when she was a really little kid. fantasy stuff when she was a really little kid. I'd say around the time I was like nine or ten,

I super started getting into a lot of different sci-fi stuff and she very much was not. And what was your favorite then, nine and ten years old? What was the gateway drug for you? Star Wars. Star Wars was probably the gateway. Also, our uncle lived with us for a while and he would have us watch Next Generation. So, even though I probably didn't understand anything that was going on, I liked that show. I liked Patrick Stewart's voice a lot. That's probably the most perfect way

to start watching Star Trek The Next Generation. A weird uncle comes to live with you for a while. I'm sure you're not the first person to tell that story. Jane, did you write for The Next Generation? You did, didn't you? I used to pitch stories there, and eventually one of them,

I sold one story to them that never became an episode, but I did. I eventually sold them the premise that if you go too fast in warp speed, you're tearing the time-space continuum. So it developed a whole thing that was all based on my idea. And so eventually in Voyager, they had to invent a new kind of engine because of me. Oh, that's so cool. I was really into Voyager when I was in middle school. There you go. Well, I set the cool. I was really into Voyager when I was in middle school. There you go. Well, I set the speed limit.

That's awesome. If you drive the spaceship too fast, you smash the universe apart, you start a new timeline, and that's how J.J. Abrams was born. Oh my god. I wonder if you could tie that back to me. Do you think so? I think probably. No, I don't think so.

But how awesome. Let me ask you this, Jane. Girls, go talk amongst yourselves for a second. Does Star Trek The Next Generation exist in the Tommy Westfall universe? I don't know. Do you know what I'm talking about? I don't know what you're talking about. Oh, boy.

You're going to get a lot of emails. Oh, dear. No, you're not. That's a very esoteric thing. You know what, folks, stick around to the verdict and I'll explain what I was talking about if you don't know. But there's no reason that you would necessarily know that unless you had spent as much time as me procrastinating on the Internet. But you actually do things and write things. So, yeah. All right, Krista, so your uncle

got you into the next generation. That was a story that could have gone horribly wrong, but instead went horribly right. Judge Hodgman, I hate to interrupt you, but according to my internet research, yes, Star Trek, including both the original series and the later series, all exist in the Tommy Westfall universe. Star Trek, Deep Space Nine,

Enterprise, Next Generation, and Voyager. Well, they're all part of their universe, so if any one of them has touched the Westfall universe, then of course they are. Sure. All right.

Well, we'll explain that later on. Krista, do you know what I'm talking about? I don't. Okay, good. Then you're a normal person no matter what you say for the rest of this podcast. That's good. Okay, awesome.

And now, Carrie, were you around when Weird Uncle came to town with his bag full of videocassettes? I was. Yeah, we would have Monday night Star Trek and pizza with our uncle. And I was involved. And I think, you know, I didn't get into the show necessarily, but I enjoyed our uncle and pizza. So I was into it, you know. Now, this may be slander. So I'm going to ask you to watch science fiction of any kind have been rebuffed

so harshly that you ultimately have simply said you dislike anything. What was the, hang on, I need to find the quote here. I apologize. Anything. She also, here it is. Oh, well, you said it for yourself. Who was that speaking? Oh, that was Krista. Yeah. According to Krista, you have admitted to being so prejudiced that you hate quote the future and robots. Why do you hate robots? And as a follow-up, why do you hate the future? Okay. Um, I realized that I might sound close minded when I talk about this, but, uh, or stupid. I, I'm fully accepted that I might sound close-minded when I talk about this, but, or stupid. I fully accepted that I might be the losing one in this argument. Well, not to worry. It won't reflect badly on the United States government. Whatever you say here, you're under immunity.

Well, you know, I think the thing is I've been, I've been thinking about this a lot and it's, it's like any movie or book or anything that involves the future or robots I just kind of instantly um turned off by and you know I don't think that it's that I don't like concepts that are outside of reality like I definitely enjoyed Lord of the Rings and other things like that um but I think it's that, you know, I feel stressed out enough by planet Earth and what we do here and kind of just dealing with people and I'm fascinated by people. And so anything that kind of has to do with circumstances

that like the future, my future children's children, children might have to deal with is just extremely stressful for me to even think about. You're saying it's contemplating the future stresses you out. Yes, it does. It's like, you know, some movie, like I enjoy some movies that are a little bit in the future. Like I just read the book, the circle. And I thought that was interesting, but it's not so far in the future. Like I just read the book, The Circle, and I thought that was interesting, but it's not so far in the future that it's like, you have problems.

Apparently Dave Eggers is now buzz marketing on my podcast. How much did he pay you? Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. How much did he pay? He probably didn't. You know what? The thing is, he probably didn't pay you a thing. I know better than anyone. Dave Eggers can get you to work for free. you a thing. I know better than anyone. Daymakers can get you to work for free. Are you afraid of the future because looking at the future reminds you of the certainty of your own death? I don't think that's it. I think it's more like, you know, if you think about daily life circumstances, there are enough stresses and interesting things going on. But say, like, we entered back into the food chain, and we're suddenly like an alien can come out of nowhere

and eat you. One, it's really hard for me to relate to something like that. And I, you know, two, it's just, I don't want to add that to my list of things to have to like care about or worry about. So it's kind of of i don't know if that makes sense but well you understand the alien jumping out and and and preying on you is a metaphor right like i don't think you actually have to work aliens so she wouldn't know so you don't know you don't even know what i'm talking about no i don I don't. But your contempt for the future and robots is so strong that according

to your sister Krista, you disliked the movie Wall-E. Yeah. That is true. You realize that puts you on the far fringes of society. I mean, it's possible that it makes you subhuman.

No, no, no, no. I'm not. I'm not saying that maybe transhuman. Do you know what I mean? Maybe maybe she's the next step of human evolution. She's the she's the she's so post nerdd that she hates nerd things. I'll take it. Everything that has happened has happened before and will happen again.

Right, Jane? Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, metaphor, you're exactly right, John. All these things are metaphorical, so they're all things you already have to worry about. They're just actually being safely encapsulated in robot bodies on the screen. So there should be less worries. Yeah, I mean, I can understand. Actually, I can understand why, given the fact, you know, before I put words into your emotional mind, mouth, before I speak your emotions, you tell me your emotions.

We are not telepathic. What about WALL-E do you dislike? And I would encourage you to describe the feeling of watching the movie. Okay. Well, first of all, the beginning was extremely stressful and sad where he's just kind of on this planet by himself. It's full of trash. He's alone. And then, like, also, he's made out of stuff, right? So he's it's kind of like this annoying thing where I was annoyed that I was so upset in the beginning. Because it's like when you watch the Brave Little Toaster at the end, you're like, why did I just cry about a toaster? I was I was legitimately clearing my throat there.

I have no strong feelings about the Brave Little Toaster. OK, like, you know, I think I'm a pretty empathetic person. The beginning of it really made me feel sad, but I was frustrated that I felt sad for a robot when they're so like it just was stupid, I thought. And then not even and not and not even a robot, a moving picture of a robot. Exactly. Yeah. So and then the thing on the planet where like everybody's obese and on these little saucer things. I just for some reason, it just really annoyed me. Like, I don't know. I didn't buy into the like the most human aspect of the movie was Wally, but he wasn't really real. And the whole set of circumstances just seemed absurd to me.

And so I felt manipulated in the beginning by all these like alone scenes. Can I interject here for a second? I have so much that I need to say, but go ahead, Jesse. Wally isn't real. Oh no. Oh, geez. Is your interjection complete, Jesse? Judge Hodgman, is that true?

Is Wally not real? Wally, all right, Jesse, you're old enough to know this now. Wally is real in the same way the characters that we love the most from novels and books and TV shows and movies are real. It doesn't actually exist, but he's real in our hearts. The characters I love from books, television, and movie are literally real here in the real world. Yeah. That's because you only read books about living baseball players. Point taken. I was, I think I got that one right too yeah but the thing that i had to the

thing that i said the thing that i loved so much about what you were saying carrie and i mean it is where you when you said and then it turns out the most human one of them all is the robot and it's like yeah that's the point of the movie. Like, that's the thing. That's the thing. That is the point of science fiction, to make you think that. Do you know what I mean? Like, to make you turn,

like, one of the points of science fiction, I dare say, Jane, and you can jump in if I'm wrong, is to make you look at a familiar thing in a defamiliarized way and think, oh, now I'm looking at myself in a different way oh now i'm looking at myself in a different way now i'm looking at society in a different way you know that's the big picture of science fiction what you said the thing about wally is the most human that he the most human one of them all was the robot is the thing the science fiction fan says in in gasping awe and admiration but you

said it in derision like like, do you know what? Not even because it was hack, because that's kind of a hacky sort of trope. But you said, like, I can't believe you got tricked into caring about that robot. I thought your problem with it was going to be the fact that it opens on a bleak future wasteland in which all humans except the fat ones have died. Do you know?

We've ruined the planet. Well, I mean, I wasn't a fan of that part either. I was. I was a huge fan of it. Jane, what do you take away from Carrie's assessment of WALL-E? Have you seen the movie? Oh, yeah. I've seen it.

Of course, love it. Like, all right-thinking people. I wonder that when she says, I think I'm an empathetic person, I think she's a very empathetic person, and that's what's bothering her, is that she's troubled by the amount of empathy that she's feeling.

And, you know, if you could get past the, like, if you really embrace the idea that this robot has been written as a robot in order to make a point, not because the writers are missing a point about the value of humanity, but because they're making a point about the humanity as a value that should be treasured no matter where we find it. Maybe that will help you get past that jump and you'll be you'll let yourself feel your natural empathy for the robot. Carrie, what do you like to consume culturally speaking? What is your favorite? Have you seen a movie besides WALL-E? Maybe one you like? Yes. My sister is going to probably chime in and make fun of me because. No, she's not allowed. I will have order here, Krista.

Sorry. I was. You interrupted me saying she's not allowed to interrupt you, Carrie. Sorry. Krista, I order you to silence until I say you can speak again. Carrie, this is a safe space. What's your favorite movie? Shola.

All right. I tried to. I jotted down a list of movies that I did enjoy. I'm not going to say this is like the full list, but I like Goodfellas. I like Amelie. I like Good Will Hunting. I really liked Inglourious Bastards. I don't know. I like movies that are more character driven.

Are you talking about the alternate history movie in Glorious Bastards? I think that was written by Harry Turtledove, wasn't it? The alternate timeline universe movie, the science fiction movie in Glorious Bastards? I don't mind things about the past that kind of... Being altered? Yeah. Right. I like ancient aliens. That's the thing, is that I don. Right. I like ancient aliens.

That's the thing, is that I don't know. I mean... Whoa. Hang on. You just blew my mind. That's a pretty deep cut. How do you like ancient aliens? Well, because I don't think

that any of that actually happened, so it doesn't stress me out. But when you are talking about, when you say the words, I like ancient aliens, what does that mean to you? What does that signify to you? What are you referring to? I'm referring to this show. Oh, I don't know this. There's a show that I don't know. What's that?

It's awesome. It's on the History Channel. It's that yeah it's awesome it's uh it's on the history channel and the worst i think it's wait wait wait a minute was that that was krista that was you talking yes all right that's fine no i want to have this counterbalance so people realize that we are not being paid by history channel to talk about ancient to talk about ancient aliens jane g are you familiar with this show? I know of it. And yeah, it's one of those things where the channels that have names

like History, Discovery, and Learning have branched out into pseudoscientific nonsense-y, blather-y stuff where they're entertaining sort of the Chariots of the Gods type pseudoscientific Bigfoots. Maybe Bigfoot's real. Maybe there are ghosts.

Maybe there were aliens who visited Earth in ancient times. But also pawn shops. Pawn shops and storage containers. But it sounds like she's watching it ironically. Well, let's find out. Tell me about ancient aliens. What is the premise? It's kind of like...

Two brothers in Toronto. One is a realtor one's a contractor exactly i mean show three people three different ancient alien tombs no tell me what it is um well it's kind of i i definitely watch it ironically it's kind of like if the last most recent indiana jones movie with the aliens at the end were turned into a historical show like it's it's all about uh different points in history and how aliens intervened and i just think it's hilarious um the most recent one i watched was about nazi germany and how it was all the aliens. And it's just, to me, I don't buy any of it. So it spins theories. Exactly.

It's not dramatized. No. No. They have experts, too, who are totally crazy. That is probably the best part of the show. I'm sure they do. Or the experts. How do I get that job?

Krista, now you may speak. What are the experts like on this show? Well, one of them, which is probably my favorite from the times that I've been forced to watch it, is this one guy who he kind of has the sleepy eyes and crazy wild man hair. And he just sort of rambles about aliens. He's become a meme actually online where it's just him with his crazy face and it says because aliens on it.

But it's not Lauren Coleman, right? My friend who runs the Cryptozoology Museum in Portland, Maine. No, I don't think so. I bet he's been on that show though, right? He's certainly been on, he must be. Boy, I'll tell you, if he's not getting his due, everybody, Cryptozoology Museum in Maine is a great thing. Loren Coleman is one of the Bigfoot experts of the world, the best,

most renowned Fortean investigators of the Sasquatch phenomenon. He authored the biography on Tom Slick, Yeti Hunter, a real person. Look into it. But if you're talking, if I go back to this ancient aliens and find out you're making fun of my internet friend, Lauren Coleman, you're going to be in trouble, Krista. This Because Aliens guy is off the hook.

I just Googled him. This guy is madness. This guy has like moose. His hair's not just unruly. It appears is madness. This guy has, like, mousse. His hair's not just unruly. It appears to have had mousse applied to it to extend it outwards. Do you think it's secretly the Yeti who's shaved his face to appear human? He looks at most like he's 35-ish years old. I imagined a 57-year-old when you described that.

like he's 35-ish years old. I imagined a 57-year-old when you described that. This guy looks like a guy that would be wearing a poncho like the woven kind of poncho outside of a marijuana dispensary asking people to go

in there and score him some weed. Krista, you've watched this show because Carrie suggested it to you or if i'm staying at her place she wants to watch it she wants to watch it how many hours would you say you've logged watching ancient aliens i mean probably not that many for ancient aliens i've watched more of the other shows she watches that uh are awful like what other shows does she watch that are that are awful uh basically the entire lineup of bravo and e well look you know what i'm not gonna let you

trash all those shows those are hardworking people all of them are terrible but uh all the real house wives shows but ancient aliens is the only one is the only one one that verges on science fiction that she's into. I would say, yeah. Yeah. And how many episodes of Ancient Aliens have you watched at her house? Probably not that many. I'm asking you for a number. For a number?

Yeah. Do an estimate. Three. All right. Three. So that's about 60 minutes of Ancient Aliens. No, they're hour-long shows. Oh, good.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. Good. So, Jane? 42 minutes and an hour on a standard broadcast. Thank you. If you wanted to do the math. Well, I don't.

So could you multiply that by three for me, please? About two hours. About roughly two hours. Yeah. Okay, good. Yeah. Okay. Roughly two hours.

I got you. All right. Now, Krista, is your contention that Carrie is prejudiced against science fiction or just has terrible taste in general? I actually don't think she has terrible taste, which is what it sounds like. She does. Well, I mean, I'm a strong believer in there are no guilty pleasures. Like if you like something, whatever, you know what that is, that is, that is emblazoned on the seal of this court. Yeah. In cinderin.

I probably have some taste that she finds questionable, but the good things that she likes, I also think are good. Goodfellas is a good movie. Yeah. And, you know, Inglourious Bastards, I love that movie too. It's just whenever we encounter something sci-fi associated, she just really, unless it's ancient aliens, completely rejects it. I mean, when I was trying to watch Lost when it was in syndication, it was constant harassment for every episode when we lived together. Carrie, you were harassing Krista for watching Lost? Yes. Why?

She hates time travel. That's not the only reason. So, I mean... Jane, you didn't write for Lost, did you? I can't remember. I didn't, but my bosses who created Once Upon a Time were writers on Lost and were very much involved in the crafting of that show.

And what about, were they time travel people or not time travel people? My bosses have a very specific view of time travel that you have to have that kind where you can't cause a new timeline where when something happens, you have to determine that it always happened that way. So that we have a lot of discussions

about time travel in the room and how it would work and whether it would work. And it's always fascinating. And I think, I think Carrie would find it terrible, terribly boring. She hates it when I talk about it. Carrie.

I like back to the future, but everyone likes, everyone likes, everyone likes back to the future. Back to the future is not time travel. No, I'm saying it's not time travel that I hate. I gotcha.

Oh, okay. So what was it that you hated about Lost? I just, and I don't want to offend anyone, but I felt like. No, no, no. This is a safe space. I mean, I felt like everything about the show, and it went on for so long. I was friends with a lot of people that were into it.

I've seen a bunch of the episodes. It seemed as though there was no real planned map of where the show was going. How dare you? How dare you? And it seemed like, you know, anything could happen in this lawless kind of universe that they were in. And so it just didn't feel that creative to me. It was just like, oh, what happened now? Like a giant thing just came through and wiped everybody out.

It's just I didn't really find it very compelling. You sound like a true nerd. We didn't find it grounded, it sounds like. So explain, Jane, what you mean by that. That it felt untethered to her. That there's a sense where if you put no limits on your storytelling at all and you can just have anything happen, you get deus ex machina and you get, you know, the twist that doesn't. And I think that's what it sounds like she's reacting to.

And maybe that's her fear of all sci-fi is that, like, well, anything's possible. In a world where you can make a robot that thinks, then you could just have any sort of plot turn and nothing's going to be what we call earned, where, you know, you've laid the groundwork where the twist will feel surprising and inevitable. Which is true, which is true about any story. I mean, no matter what world it's set in, because truly, I mean, you know, the world

of Goodfellas is an alternate universe, too. I mean, that's set in a real place and purports to be a real oral history of one guy's experience of the New York City organized crime at a certain time period. But it's made up. You know, it's fake. Right. And if an angel suddenly flew into that story, it would feel totally ungrounded, unmotivated

and random. And I think maybe that's why she's talking about feeling anxious. I may be the only person, though, in the culture who believes Ray Liotta is my special angel. Sorry, Jane, I interrupted you. Just that that may be why she keeps using the word anxiety or talking about feeling anxious, that you do get that feeling if you feel like the story could just

randomly go anywhere. And maybe that's what's causing it, is sort of that she doesn't see, if you aren't grasping onto the metaphor, then it'll feel like just random things are happening in science fiction, where if you if you've if you've really grasped onto what the writers are, are you how they are using these, these formula, how they're using these things like robots, then it could feel random. And may I stipulate that I love the lost and currently still love Lost.

And I suspect in the future, if I were to travel forward, I would always love Lost, even when I am a robot on a wasteland, my mind being put in there by my gay husband. But what you are saying about Lost is certainly not unknown to the Internet. I mean, even George R.R. Martin has expressed some of the concerns that you did with the way that that show moved on. And that has a lot to do, in my understanding, with just how TV shows are made and how you just have to keep going. are made and how, and how, you know, you just have to keep going. Even, you know, one of the bold things that Lost did, not to everyone's satisfaction, but it ended, you know, and, and it's, it's hard to remember what a strange thing it was for a huge show to say, we are going

to put an end point on this so that we can tell a story. And that was a, you know, going back, going back now, lots of shows do those kinds of arcs and conclusions. But at the time, it was, it was totally revolutionary. And I think that show was revolutionary in a lot of different ways. I have a whole theory, Jane. Now, ladies, you can talk amongst yourself. To me, the thing about Lost that was so, I mean mean aside from the fact that i i thought some of the writing almost all the writing was amazing some of the some of the storylines were amazing the characters were making the actors i loved it the look the feel it was constantly challenging next one season like i like the fact that like one season would be about this and then

another season would be about time travel and it's just really hard time travel that those guys i don't know who your bosses are, they're both guys. Yeah, Eddie and Adam. Right, they had special rules for it. But also there always seemed to be such tension. This is one of the first big major network shows to be this involved in the nerdery of a high kind, time travel and alternate universes and alternate timelines. And all of this stuff that had always been relegated to some weird uncle's bag of videocassettes previously was now front and center mainstream hit.

or addictive, frankly, was the ambiguity about whether it was going to be science or whether it was going to be supernatural of some kind or a kind of supernatural science. And that was a game they could only play for so long, and it felt like there was always pressure to push it into, can we just make this a soap opera? Can we make this the jockeiest kind of show of all kind? Or can we make this the nerdiest? While others were saying, no, let's make it the nerdiest kind of show of all kind? Or can we make this the nerdiest? While others were saying,

no, let's make it the nerdiest kind of show of all kind. Can we make this a world in which we can reboot each character where there is no continuity issue whatsoever? We can just have the character do something that's completely new and different and forget everything we did before, like on those crazy soap operas from the 80s?

Or do we have to really double down on canon here and make sure that we follow through on every premise that we did? And that tension alone, that was, to me, and it could be completely my layering on of my own neuroses and anxieties onto this show, but feeling that tension between jock culture and nerd culture in popular entertainment was fascinating to me. Jane, do you have any comment? Yes, I do, because I think you're

actually at something huge and amazing and interesting and transformative about this very podcast, which is that the pressure that you're feeling from network television to move things away from genre is exactly the thing I I think, that Carrie is feeling. The networks are like Carrie in that they sense that, or they have this fear that sci-fi is somehow going to turn into 1950s paper plate flying saucers and ray guns, and everything will become ungrounded and crazy and weird and nerdy all over the mainstream network.

I'm sorry to interject, but since you mentioned 1950s sci-fi, would you like to hear me whistle and hum at the same time to make a UFO sound? Yes. Woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo-woo- I actually tried to do a tune there. That's not right. I should just be like... It's really fun because when I look out the window here, I can see the sound engineer wincing and grabbing her head. Sorry, but you were on to a really great point, and I apologize. So network executives are terrified. They have an idea that it's all going to spin off into Gord must eat humans now or whatever. Yes, yes. I am Flindor, son of Grindor. There's this fear of sci-fi, even though in motion pictures, it's obviously they're the biggest hits of every single year

are sci-fi. But somehow on television, there is this fear that sci-fi is crazy, weird, random robot. And I think that robots. And it's interesting. If we can figure out, if we can cure Carrie today and then apply that cure to the networks, we could institute a new golden age of television science fiction. I know, but maybe their fear is absolutely merited because there are Carries out there in the world who just don't dig it. Well, that's a good point.

But again, if we cure Carrie and therefore can cure all those other people, we've still instituted, we'll still drum in a new golden age of television science fiction. What's wrong with Grindor, son of Flindor? That's fantasy. Would you rather see a different Grindor? Not one of the Flindor Grindors? That's fantasy. That's not science fiction. It is fantasy. That's true. Just like Star Wars, not science fiction, fantasy. Happened a long time ago. I think it's a space opera.

No, it is not. It is George Lucas's interpretation of The Lord of the Rings, but that's another story. Or trilogy. Carrie, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions. It is not the, it is not the purpose of this court to change your taste using a taste changing implant or post hypnotic suggestion like Jane Espenson is

suggesting. I will spare you that treatment though. It is available to you. If you wish theenson is suggesting. I will spare you that treatment, though it is available to you if you wish. The machine is ready. But I will ask just a couple of questions. Do you consider all science fiction with the same open derision that you consider ancient aliens?

Do you think it's for nerds no that i don't think that's what it's about it's not that i am you know worried if i watch science fiction that i'll be nerdy if i was worried about what my taste would be i wouldn't watch real housewives or things like that like i don't take it that seriously. I think part of it, aside from all of the things that bother me about plot lines, is just there's, there are people out there who the thought of being in outer space or the future, it's just the vastness of it and the things that you don't know are not fun to think about. So I think, you know, aside from the things that we've been talking about, there probably are other people like me who just don't like to think about being in outer space. If I had the option, I would never go to outer space.

Like, it's not something that I'm into. You know, I'm glad you brought that up. I still want to know what branch of the government you work for where you think it's actually an option for you to go to outer space. Because that might be true. I don't really want to go into outer space either. Just for your information, Gary. I don't know if you know that. I finally thought of being in space.

I'm terrified. So, Krista, this is your chance to make your argument, right? Yeah. chance to make your argument right yeah why should carrie change her mind about things that clearly make her anxious and uncomfortable because i think she's focusing on the wrong thing in a lot of cases or she's getting caught up in these smaller details maybe that's what it seems like the pieces of fiction are all about but the pieces of sci-fi that I like the most are about the people and I know that people-driven character-driven stuff is what she's really into and I think that you know sci-fi offers this really interesting way to sort of cast a light on human relationships and the

relationships to the world around them and I think if she were to give it a chance and maybe watch some of the things that I I'm very familiar with her taste grew up with her so I know the types of things she might be into so I think maybe if she were to watch some of the things that I pick for her, that she would then see the merit to sci-fi and possibly become a little bit... So what are your favorite things that you would want to share with her? You don't consider it sci-fi, but she's never seen the original Star Wars trilogy, which I think is a good jumping off point for a lot of people for sci-fi. Hang on a second, Krista. Carrie? Yes?

You did say that you had seen some Star Wars. I've seen the most... She's seen the Phantom Menace. Krista? Sorry. Sorry. Don't try to help her out of this carrie there is a general problem sorry i'm going to ask you a direct question

okay how many star wars branded feature films have you seen one what was the name of it? I don't remember. Stop dodging the question. It was when the new ones came into theaters. It was the first one when they redid everything. What happened in the movie? Honestly, we took some people. We were babysitting, and I fell asleep during it. So I don't even remember. I know it was like a young a young Luke sky or young,

uh, shoot a young Darth Vader. Sorry. I really don't know anything about it. You're sort of floppy racist caricature in it. Yeah. I remember that part. Your description of that movie is uncanny because it is the, it is the same description someone would give it if they hadn't fallen asleep in the movie. I don't really know what happened in it. Jane, have you seen the, I mean, you must have because Damon Lindelof, the co-creator of Lost and a friend of the show in the world. He was sending around that YouTube video by that fellow.

We'll put it, we got to put a link on it. I can't think of it right now. The Red Letter Media? Yes. Was that Krista talking? Amazing. Yeah. Yeah.

The Mr. Planket Review. Yeah. Could you say what that was, Krista? It's a really long review where this team, they're called Red Letter Media, the Mr. Plinkett review. Yeah. Could you say what that was, Krista? Uh, it's a really long review where this, uh, team they're called red letter media, but this one character that they have breaks down everything that was wrong with every single one of the prequel movies.

And, uh, but specifically the phantom menace, specifically the phantom menace. Cause that's probably the one that's the most, uh, problematic to put it diplomatically. And basically the part that really struck me.

Jane, did you see this video? Yes, and I think I know exactly what you're about to say. It's about describing the characters without using what they're wearing. Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, I think maybe you've seen it more recently than I have. But my memory of it is essentially, yeah, describe the characters and describe what happens in Star Wars, what is now called A New Hope. And everyone's like, well, this happens. And then in Phantom Menace, people are like, I don't know. Like,

who is this? Like, people say, you know, who is Han Solo? Right? You know, brash and, you know, unapologetic and rebel. Lovable rogue who comes around, you know, who seems to have no principles, but comes around to having principles at the end. Who's Qui-Gon Jinn? Who knows? Yeah, we're not really sure. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

I remember, well, I made Carrie go see that because I was 12 at the time. go see that um because i was 12 at the time uh and i remember watching it and thinking distinctly like oh i'm probably too young to understand the stuff that's going on and then seeing again later and realizing it that it was actually supposed to be geared towards children and then just being so disillusioned by that but it is you know but i have children and my son that's the one that my son has seen the most because, because the child is in it, you know, that's why, because it's him. He sees himself in it, but we're not all 12 year old boys. That was, I think the mis, the, the, the, the miscalculation of that film. We're not, we're not all Caucasian 12 year old boys who can

precisely put them side, put themselves inside that precise pod racing pod. Yeah. Okay. But anyway, we went down that we went, we went down a little bit of a side, a sideways, a rat hole as Marlon Mann would say,

you want her to see star Wars, a new hope. What else? Yes. I preferably I'd like her to watch all three. Cause I think she would actually like them. I'd really like her to watch Firefly. That's so much about human relationships that the sci-fi element is almost secondary a lot of times. That's a Western, a Western film. Space Western. I'd like her to watch selected episodes of Doctor Who, which I know.

Has she seen Blink? No, she I think. Have you watched an entire episode, Carrie? No. OK, I didn't think so. You know, show her Blink of the more recent seasons. I'd like her to watch the Vincent Van Gogh episode because I think that episode is beautiful. Vincent van Gogh episode because I think that episode is beautiful um the I don't know there's a bunch of them that I'd like for her to see but I'd try to pick a few and then if she likes it

maybe start from the beginning of the reboot anyway um Neil Gaiman has said that if that that someone who's never seen Doctor Who should watch Blink yeah and I and I will say and I will say if the person gets it, then they're going to get Dr. Who. And if they don't get it, you should not bother. Use Torchwood as an entryway to Dr. Who, too. Oh, that's a good suggestion, Jane. But here's the thing.

This is what I want you to say, Krista, as we wrap up this portion of the case. This is your chance now. You have to pick one thing, right, that you would order me to order her to watch that is going to not merely act as the gateway drug into whatever, but would express in a sisterly collegial way, hopefully to her, what it is that you love about sci-fi. So what is the one thing and why do you love it as science fiction? I might have to go with moon.

Oh, interesting call. Yeah. Because, I mean, it's Sam Rockwell, who's amazing. What's David Bowie's son's actual name now duncan jones yeah um i think the direction of it is really good i mean i think it's definitely very i mean it's a sci-fi movie very much so but it's so much about that one person and i think if i'm picking one thing i mean i'm counting out seasons of tv but if it's one thing, then probably that movie.

Wow. That's an, what do you think about that, Jane? I was so in my own head of trying to justify all the ways in which Galaxy Quest would be the perfect answer to this question, and I'm still grappling with it. Carrie, have you seen Galaxy Quest? I couldn't remember. No. Oh.

It might be good because you'll be able to laugh along with all the things where it pokes fun at sci-fi, and then at the same time when you realize the heart and what these people have gained from playing sci-fi characters, it may also, like, move in that direction, too. I had actually thought that she had seen that when we were kids,

but apparently she didn't have the same childhood I did. Forgetting about how Moon will initiate Carrie into your obsession, can you just speak personally about why you love Moon so much that that is the one thing you would share? If you were going to be sent onto a space station with your sister and you could only take one science fiction movie with you, that would be, not even a movie movie science fiction piece of culture what is it

about moon that wouldn't be a great thing to watch while you're stuck on a space station no problem but uh all right let's say you're on an let's say you're you're let's say you're on a uh uh you're on vacation in the shire you're in a you've got a little airbnb of a hobbit hole on the Shire. You're in a, you've got a little Airbnb of a hobbit hole on the Shire and you've only got one, one DVD with you. Okay. And I do have to say, if I'm going comedy, then definitely Galaxy Quest. But for Moon, I just found the whole premise was just so impactful to me. Just it had a heaviness to it, but it didn't feel heavy handed. This is a really lame way to describe it, but I just kept thinking about it afterwards. And the way this guy just had to deal with being in this situation that on one hand was totally not familiar because you know i don't want

to give too much away with spoilers for it krista i have to i have to all right i know there is a big spoiler in the film yeah and so we're not going to spoil it but i have to stop you there because what you're describing now is any movie i know i know regardless of genre regardless of genre do you know and i think that that is in some ways your point, right? Which is that there are great stories that can be told in a science fiction context that are the same as any movie that might be on Carrie's existing list. So you're not making the case for science fiction. I know. Well, okay.

One last chance. Forget about Moon. Forget about everything else. Okay. Make your case briefly, because I am already on my hover chair into my chambers. Okay. Well, on a superficial level, I do think it's cool. I think, you know, futuristic stuff is very interesting.

But I definitely think that these weird situations like being stuck on a spaceship by yourself, it really brings out an element in people that you wouldn't see normally, but it's definitely an element that's always there and I think putting people into extraordinary circumstances really sort of brings out the human elements in them sure and it can really create stress on relationships um you know it's like being stranded essentially but in a more fantastical sense so I don't know I just really like that it sort of brings out this very raw part of people. And also, I appreciate what makes me feel about humanity in a good way, like especially Doctor Who, because it makes you feel like there's so many possibilities for us as a species. And that's what I love most about that show.

And it gives me it does make me feel anxious about the future it makes me feel such hope for it that we could get to this place where this random crazy alien cares so much about us um and just seeing us spread throughout the universe and uh be able to overcome some basic things like in Star Trek, like hunger issues. I'm going to stop you there. No, no, no. I got you. I think I'm tuned into something now.

I was seriously going to interrupt you, though, because if you're like, I really just like to see people in awful situations. I'm like, have you seen Hardcore Pawn on the True Channel? It doesn't need to be sci-fi. People push to their limits. I don't even think sci-fi is a genre. Sci-fi is a setting.

And the metaphor you lay over it determines whether it's sci-fi or not. But Battlestar Galactica could be on an actual aircraft carrier. Yeah. And you're right. It just gives you a way to put people in more stressful situations than you could without the only, doing it in space was the only way you could talk about war in a real way in 2003 and 2004, when we were in the middle of a huge national anxiety about what we were doing in the Middle East and how we were responding to terrorism. The science fiction setting allowed Ron Moore and Jane and the other writers

and David Icke to tell and explore those stories in a way that they simply would not be allowed to in a real world setting, which is another argument for science fiction that I'm glad Jane, you and I are here to make because Krista just likes people on moon bases. She likes Sam Rockwell and Sam Rockwell. bases. She likes Sam Rockwell. Sam Rockwell. Who doesn't like Sam Rockwell? Carrie, before I go into my ready room,

do you have beef with Doctor Who? Do I, Carrie? Yeah, Carrie. You don't like Doctor Who? I don't have enough information. I haven't watched enough shows to have any beef with it. I don't. Data incomplete. Data incomplete. Exactly. have enough information i haven't watched enough shows to have any beef with it i don't data incomplete data incomplete exactly uh you but you don't have you don't have a chip on your

shoulder about doctor who you say you watched part of one do you fall asleep i mean krista and i lived together before and i've seen it i haven't sat and actively watched it. So I don't think that I don't really have an opinion about it. And you're okay with time travel or no? Yeah, I'm okay with it. It's not like with a discomfort like a gut level discomfort level

where worst 10 is WALL-E. Get me out of here. And zero is Wally. Like, get me out of here. And Zero is the Steadicam tracking shot from Goodfellas that all humans love. Where he goes into the

nightclub, giving everybody $100 bills. My aspiration for life. Where are you with time travel? Where is time travel on the gut level? Disgust, disgustometer. I'll put it at a four. All right. I think I've heard everything I need to hear. I'm going to go. I'm going to go into my ready room now.

I will be back in a moment with my decision. Please rise as judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Carrie, how are you feeling right now? All right. I really, this conversation made me feel a little bit differently about looking at science fiction. So I thought it was interesting. I hope I didn't come across as too close-minded, but.

In what way did it make you feel differently about science fiction? Well, I hadn't thought, I've always kind of viewed the premises as. So outside of reality that it was hard for me to relate to the characters, but I hadn't thought about it in a way that, you know, these premises kind of push you to think about how humans would be. It just I never really thought about it that way for some reason. I just kind of always felt disconnected from it. But I thought that was an interesting aspect that, you know, made me more open-minded, I guess I would say.

I don't know if you've ever read Bambi Dick, but I don't think anybody really cares that much about catching one particular whale. Okay. Krista, how are you feeling? Okay. I feel like I kind of rambled a bit and didn't express myself that well, but. No, I think you did great. Thanks.

It's because you're on her team, Jamie. It's true. You're helping team up on her sister yeah and i was i was mostly trying to put things into terms that i thought carrie would get more than i thought maybe like a hard sci-fi fan would get um but yeah jane why do you think that people should watch Galaxy Quest, the roughly three star mid to late 1990s? Oh, no, it's brilliant.

Galaxy Quest is one of the best movies ever made. It is five stars. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh, boy, that would be fantastic.

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Rules and restrictions apply. I don't know if I ever saw one. It's brilliant. It's insightful in so many ways. It talks about the experience of fiction, of being a part of something, feeling like you're not a part of something, about fandom, about sci-fi as seen from the outside and seen from the inside. It's a lovely, lovely motion picture and hysterically funny. People should definitely see Galaxy Quest. And particularly if you don't like sci-fi, I think it's a good one where it objectively holds sci-fi up at a distance and at the same time that it has this great love of it. Yeah, it's very like irreverent about sci-fi, but at the same time, yeah, cares about it deeply. I feel a little disappointed that nobody brought up my favorite sci-fi movie.

Yeah. Babe Pig in the City. Yes, indeed. Absolutely. It's a dystopia, that-fi movie. Yeah. Babe Pig in the City. Yes, indeed. Absolutely. It's a dystopia, that's for sure. Yeah. Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a minute. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom.

Oh, my hover chair broke again. That chair, it can hum and whistle at the same time. I know, I know. That has nothing to do with this operation as a hovering chair. Well, I was listening in from my ready room to say what I needed to say. And I have to correct two points right away. Galaxy Quest is a great movie.

And I am offended that you would say what you said, Jesse. It was a three-star movie? I order you. I enjoyed Galaxy Quest. I have no problem with Galaxy Quest. Jesse. It was a three-star movie. I order you. I enjoyed galaxy quest. I order you problem with galaxy quest. Yeah. I order,

I order you to revisit it. There's a lot more going on there and, and an, and a breakout performance by Justin long. My friend. That's right. As the, as the chief,

as the chief nerd. And it also has Sam Rockwell in it. Christmas favorite. It's a great movie. I'm not sure that I agree with Jane that that should be the one that Carrie should watch if I were to order in her favor. But before I come to that conclusion, let me correct another point that I overheard

through the sliding door of my ready room, which was Jane saying to Krista, you did a great job. You know what, Krista, you didn't. I'm sorry. I got to call them as I seized them with my hairband visor, like Geordie LaForge. I can see things that Jane can't.

Okay. And what I saw was, not that you, you didn't do, it's not that you did a bad job explaining the merits of science fiction because you're not a true fan or that you're not intelligent to. You're both of those things, clearly. It's just that you're in the inside. You know what I mean?

You're in the inside. You love it. You just love it. You love it in a way that's gut level. I just dig it. love it. You love it in a way that's gut level. I just dig it. And I don't think that you have the part in you necessarily, or it's not developed yet, the part in you that is broken the way I am broken and the way Jane is broken. And then we got to think about why things work all the time and then feel compelled without being asked to articulate why a story works and why science fiction works and why science fiction is important and all that stuff.

Because you just enjoy what you enjoy, which is, you know, part of the seal of this court. You know, as I say, you like people like what they like. And that is something that this court honors. what they like. And that is something that this court honors. So I hesitated to even hear this case because I don't like to try to force taste onto other people. But this was a good chance to talk about some science fiction that I like. And also, there have been times in this case, I'll reference, or there have been times in this court, I'll reference a gavel bangers ball with a guest witness, John Darnielle, where I forced a man or I forced a woman to listen to heavy metal because her boyfriend loved it so much. uh, find in your favor, um,

and order Carrie to give some science fiction a try. Now, Carrie, you know, I, sorry, I, I,

I, I intended to bury the lead a lot deeper than that. We were not going to, we, I, I, I was putting the lead at, in,

in Palookadar at the center of the earth. We would not have found that lead for another three hours. But I've already, I've tipped my hand as I think you knew that it would be tipped. But Carrie, I want to say something. I appreciate why you don't like WALL-E. And I appreciate why you don't like science fiction, or at least what you think are some of the hallmarks of science fiction. And that is that you just have on a gut level an anxiety about them. You don't want to go into space.

You might have a fantasy about going to a beautiful Middle Earth type place or what you might not, but you know, when you see a robot scrabble, hard scrabbling across, uh, uh, what once was a thriving city that makes you feel uncomfortable and, and, and unhappy. Right.

Yeah, that's right. Right. And you know what? We, we don't, we don't turn on the TV or watch a movie. Right.

Right. In specifically to feel unhappy, right? Now. Yeah. And in the same way, I can't go on any of the underwater rides at Disneyland or Disney World because robots underwater, I can't handle it.

Just even saying robots underwater just made me feel sick to my stomach. There is a basic gut reaction to certain things that you have that you kind of can't control. And, you know, you shouldn't have to, you know, go through immersion therapy to get out of unless it's like an OCD issue that's keeping you from leaving your house. Do you know what I mean? You live a completely functional life and a happy one watching your terrible television and working for the government. Yeah. Right?

So I feel no compulsion whatsoever to force you to endure something that you just can't like. But I will say this. You're watching a lot of garbage. If Krista is reporting truly. I mean, you like some good movies, but I noticed that all those movies came out before the year 2000. And meanwhile, most of your time is you're watching Real Housewives

and Ancient Aliens. And I love those shows. and and meanwhile most of your time is you're watching real housewives and ancient aliens and i love those shows i hope everyone in the world got the very deep reference i made to property brothers earlier in the in the in the program which is a hgtv show starring the property brothers they're property brothers and the show sells itself and i love those shows right because they um and i and i and i really have a fondness for that that kind of you know reality shows of that kind because they are uh they're they're they're repeatable every time you turn on there's drama right but every time you turn on those shows you know exactly how that's going to unfold. Right. You it's like that's why police procedurals are so popular among such a wide group of people, particularly. Well, I'm not going to generalize about old people, but there there is some there is something there is something comforting about seeing people's brains splattered all over the wall week over week over week.

And it's not the brain splattering. It is the chaos that is then resolved into order in exactly the same way with people that you like week over week over week. Those shows, that entertainment, that culture is profoundly unchallenging, right? It is not putting you into a, it is so within your comfort zone that it is like a duvet that you're surrounding yourself with.

And that's great too, right? But between those poles, right? And we're not even talking about genre anymore. We're just talking about culture. Between the poles of challenging and unchallenging, there's a lot of stuff and a lot of worthwhile stuff. And the reality is, and I think you probably have a pretty varied cultural diet, but I hope you do in any case, because it's important to have a varied cultural diet, to have those things in your life that you can just veg out to in the middle of the night after you've done six comedy shows in total terror at the public theater for a week. And your and your wrap party is sitting at home by yourself with a tuna fish sandwich and a martini watching Property Brothers.

The greatest night of my life, by the way. My favorite night of all time. I wish I could recreate it every night. Being done that show and just watching. But of course, there are times when you've got to enjoy culture that makes you a little bit uncomfortable. I don't want to say makes you think because it's a cliche, and it's particularly a cliche of science fiction. But I think that challenges you a little bit, that gives you something that you don't expect.

And maybe makes you a little uncomfortable until you come around to an end where you feel comfortable again. I mean, that's CSI basically, right? But with bigger themes. again. I mean, that's CSI basically, right? But with bigger themes. So for that reason, I feel that you have a prejudice against science fiction now because your sister's been pushing it on you for so long in such a completely inarticulate manner that you just automatically say no. In the same way that I said, Jonathan Colton had been recommending that I read Neal Stevenson novels for a decade. And the more he recommended it, the more I said no, the more I hated Neal Stevenson and his work, because the recommendation often breeds contempt. Do you know what I mean? But then finally, I broke down. And I'm like, Oh, oh, I really enjoy this. It's challenging to me and I love it.

So, first of all, you have to read Reamdee by Neal Stephenson. It's only a thousand pages long. You will love it. It is not science fiction. It's a thriller. R-E-A-M-D-E. Have you read that, Jane? No.

Have you read Neal Stephenson? I have not. I guess I should. Yeah, you should read. Everyone should read Neil Stevenson. Boy, oh boy, what a dummy I was. But I'm not going to let you be a dummy anymore, Carrie. You made your sister watch

at least two hours of Ancient Aliens and countless hours of other stuff that she didn't want to watch. She's put in the work. You owe her one shot. One shot. Krista, it cannot be Moon. Okay. I'm telling you right now.

I'm totally fine with that. If she can't handle, for three reasons, if she can't handle the opening scenes of WALL-E, how do you think she's going to respond to Moon? I didn't even think about that. Yeah, it's kind of, it's the same, it's the same movie. Oh my God, it is. It's the same movie.

That's what you like, but that's what your sister doesn't like. Fine, I would choose an episode of Doctor Who then. All right, I'm not sure it can be, I'm not sure it can be Doctor Who. What do you think then? I guess I need help. Hang on. I had a list of, yeah, no, you do need help. And luckily you have someone here who can really help you. And it's going to be Jane Espenson is going to tell you what to watch with your sister.

Okay. Well, what do you think about that? Yeah. I mean, Galaxy Quest was my, was my first thought. That's your first thought. Yeah. Firefly is really good because of the Western trappings. I think that's a good way. I mean, I'm just listing shows I've worked on, but so be it.

Oh, that's right. You worked on Firefly. Yeah. I'm embarrassed. No, it's a good place to start. I love that show, and it's definitely got all kinds of appeal, but, you know, the history of that show, you know it better than most. But, I mean, you know, if she has problems with the way Lost got resolved, you know what I mean?

Right, yeah. Well, that wasn't really the show's fault, though. Yeah, and that was on an episode. I mean, Firefly, yeah, didn't quite get the resolution it needed, but it wasn't a show that was about one big, ongoing, huge story that needed resolving. Yeah, Firefly's pretty episodic. Yeah. Right.

And then you have Serenity to sort of wrap it up. Yeah, that's true. And the other one I'd point to is Battlestar, but not the five-hour miniseries. Come in on an episode like 33 or Water, the first two episodes that followed the miniseries, which are gripping war stories. And again, with Firefly, you get the Western. With Battlestar Galactic, you get the war. You're really in a different genre. Yeah, I think those are both really great suggestions, as is Galaxy Quest. I didn't mean to disparage Galaxy Quest. You know how I feel about it. It's a nine-star movie. Yes. It's a 99-star movie.

I think if Carrie can not get too stressed out by Battlestar, I think that would be a good place. And especially since I haven't finished the whole thing, we could watch it together. And Doctor Who would be okay, too. I don't know why I ruled out Doctor Who. I think I just wanted to put Jane on the spot. Jane, are you a Whovian? I really, the reason I suggested Torchwood is the way into Doctor

Who. I have not yet encompassed the entire Who oeuvre, but I adore Torchwood. What's weird is I've been a Whovian my whole life, and I've not watched Torchwood. It's like we're in parallel dimensions, Jane.

Yeah, yeah. But I think Torchwood's very accessible because it's got a ton of humor. Stories hold together. It's got, you know, hot shenanigans. And Captain Jack Harkness. Boy, oh boy. Yeah. What a clever dude.

John Barrowman. So if there were one episode of Torchwood? Oh, the Children of Earth five-episode arc, which is a little stand-alone show. I think that anybody's going to love that. It's, you know, from the halls of the British government. Oh, it's government stuff. She'll like government stuff. Yeah, there we go.

But I would say try the Children of Earth arc from Torchwood. It's awesome. All right. And Jane, I will say to you, The Empty Child, The Doctor Dances two-parter of the Christopher Eccleston reboot is one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen on television. Love it. Yeah, that was on the list besides Blink and the Vincent Van Gogh episode. reboot is one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen on television. Love it. Love it every time.

Besides blink. I wouldn't do it. Blink. Blink. I feel would just chase Carrie right away. I mean, it's just, it's too time traveling.

Yeah. That's why I like the empty child and that whole arc just because I don't know. Yeah. That's what I just said. So pretty. What are you? Okay.

Sorry. Guys. Uh, nobody asked me, but I'd recommend that you check out the Nintendo game Base Wars, which takes baseball and puts a 24th century spin on it by replacing the players with fighting robots.

Alright, so ordered. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all you have two hours, two hours of science fiction in your diet. And before you give it up forever, Carrie, do you understand? I do. All right. Thank you very much for for for being a part of this court.

I'm leaving. So Jesse can talk to you. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Carrie, how are you feeling about this order? I'm feeling OK about it. I mean, you know, I think I do owe it to my sister. She's great and has put up with a lot of bad TV that I do like to watch. And I think, you know, if I can like a new thing, it would be nice to do that.

So I'm on board. What about you, Krista? How are you feeling? I'm feeling pretty good. Uh, you know, I don't want to, Carrie and I have a good relationship, so I don't want to like force her to do something that's going to make her miserable, but, uh, I don't know. I feel like it would be a good expansion of her horizons, just to introduce a new genre to her life. And so I don't have to watch Real Housewives ever again. Krista, Carrie, thanks so much for joining us on Judge John Hodgman. Thank you. Thanks.

So say we all. So say we all. Hello, teachers and faculty. is janet varney i'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast the jv club with janet varney is part of the curriculum for the school year learning about the teenage years of such guests as allison brie vicki peterson john Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun

or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah!

We are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Flotamfun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Man, Judge Hodgman, you're really getting in there on repairing that, uh, what's that called? Hover chair.

Floater chair. Hover chair. Floater chair is what I said. Floater chair. Come on, Jesse. To be fair, I said floater chair. It's the difference between a jazzy and a rascal. Or is it a rascal and a jazzy?

Oh, no. That messed up. Well, we recorded a super long show just now, so I don't think we need to do any docket clearing. But I do want to mention one thing. I also have to spend some time immediately looking up Livingston the lionfish that lived in Captain Picard's ready room on Star Trek The Next Generation. To see if he's part of the Tommy Westfall universe as well. You know what, everyone just go, pull over your cars,

get out your smartphones and Google Tommy Westfall universe. And then before you do that, call wherever you're going and tell them you are going to be five years late. Does the narration provided by Star Trek's Leonard Nimoy

mean that the Sega Saturn game Seaman is part of the Tommy Westfall universe? Yes. Great. I'm going to say yes. Hey, you know, Jane Espenson is actually going to be joining me at this conference that MaximumFun.org is planning called Make Your Thing. Oh, yeah. I've heard about that.

Tell me more. Jane is going to be there with her husband's partner, Brad Bell, and it's basically a conference for independent creators. So, you know, whether you're a freelance writer or a graphic designer or whether you make web videos or podcasts or you aspire to do any of those things or you're a writer who publishes independently, we wanted to make a place

for you and people like you to come together. And we have a really cool lineup of people. Besides Jane, there's Kate Beaton who makes the comic Hark of Vagrant.

Hark of Vagrant. The professional, independent professional wrestler Colt Cabana. Chris Gethard from The Chris Gethard Show. Our friend Merlin Mann is going to be there.

Vernon Reed from Living Color, among other music projects. John Vanderslice. We have a really cool group of folks coming to this thing, and already a bunch of cool folks like our friend Mark Rauenfelder who are coming as attendees. And we're kick-starting it, so go to makeyourthing.la, and this is the final week, so do it now. Makeyourthing.la. If we meet our goal, we're going to put on this awesome conference in this awesome place in Los Angeles. And besides being financially useful, like actually practical and functional and inspirational to people who do this kind of work, I think it's also going to be a ton of fun. So makeyourthing.la. I mean, after listening to the great Jane Espenson,

how can you not immediately sign up for that? You know she's one of my favorites. All I can think of is if you're a chump. And Brad Bell will be there as well. Cheeks himself. Cheeks himself is going to be there. We're going to have Jay Allison, who's the boss of the Moth podcast.

You don't have to tell me who Jay Allison is, man. I've been following that guy for years. Public radio legend. He's probably the greatest public radio legend. Like if you went up to Ira Glass or Jad Abumrad or something like that and said, who's the greatest public radio legend? They would say Jay Allison. He's an amazing and inspirational guy, too. Yeah, he is. Can I say some things about things about things?

Yeah. Where are you? Are you headed out on the road or what? What's up? I am now booking some dates. My martini and tuna fish sandwich is over. I am going back to performing this new show that I created for over the past year and performed at the public theater. Uh, and, uh, now I'm taking it out on the road and, uh, I'm, I'm looking for where I'm going. Oh yes. So, um, I will be performing it right before Max Fun Con in Los Angeles on May 29th at, uh, Largo at the Coronet, the, the renowned performance space and tickets are on sale now for that. And, um, then a little earlier in the year, I'll be performing back at the Birchmere in Alexandria,

Virginia on May 15th, which this will be my third time performing. I will extend an invitation to Paul and Storm. If they can join, they will join. I hope because this has been so much fun year over year to go to the Birchmere. It's a great performance space. And one of my favorite places to perform. On April 1st, I'll be at the University of California Santa Barbara campus in dear old Campbell Hall, performing on April 1st.

And I'm going backwards in time. This is like a time travel episode. On March 15th, I will not be performing I Stole Your Dad. I'll actually be in conversation with Bill Richardson, not the new Mexican politician, but rather the Canadian radio personality in Winnipeg, Manitoba, a city that I have long wanted to visit. And believe me, Twitter is going to explode when they hear this because the Winnipegians have been is going to explode when they hear this because the Winnipegians have been

so nice to me over the years. And for more information, oh, Jesse, one last thing. Yes, sir. I just got announced I was invited to Sasquatch. Oh, wow. Over the July

4th weekend. And guess where I'm going to be staying? Where? In a yurt. Holy moly! I booked a yurt at Sasquatch to perform comedy there on the July fourth weekend. Oh my gosh. For more

on these dates and other upcoming dates in North Carolina, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Alabama, Georgia, and the meetup that's going to happen in Western Massachusetts very soon, go to johnhodgman.com or subscribe to my mailing list by going to bit.ly slash hodgmail, H-O-D-G-M-A-I-L. It's probably the best way to keep up with what crypto-zoologically themed music festivals you'll be performing at. It's true. It's true. I don't think I can do Yeti this year.

Oh, what a bummer. Yeah, no, it's just not going to work. Will I see you at Chupacabra? Oh, of course. And Champy up in Burlington, Vermont? Of course. Our producer is Julia Smith. Our editor is Mark McConville. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, send it in. Go to MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho. All the instructions are right there.

It's easy. MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho. Share it with us. You might be surprised. We might put you on the air. We might. It'll be fun. MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho. Oh, and for everybody who submitted a name for this case,

and they didn't get it on, I'm sorry. Jesse came up with the name himself. No, I didn't. I didn't come up with it. I picked it. Oh. Our special thanks this week to Eli Denevitz and Robin Fogelson. Oh, well, I apologize, Eli and Robin.

I was under the impression that you had picked a Jesse and I was steamed about it because I had come up with my own name for it. And you said no. No, I didn't like yours. Yours was the Star Wars Chamber. I didn't even get that. I know someone out there does, and that person is my people. If you got it or if you didn't get it, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, and you can participate the next time we're looking for a case name.

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That's why we had Burt Reynolds on. He was playing your dad, remember? Interviewing the Muppets. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. So say we all.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast is So say we all. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne,

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