Judge John Hodgman - Seating Arraignments

Episode Date: December 14, 2017

Elizabeth files suit against her friend, Zach. They spend a lot of time together watching TV at Zach’s apartment. But Elizabeth is unhappy with his living room seating arrangement. She would like him to add a chair, but he says the couch he has is enough! Thank you to Graham Stanton & Felipe Sobreiro for suggesting this week's title! To suggest a title for a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, seating arraignments. Elizabeth files suit against her friend Zach. They spend a lot of time together watching TV at Zach's apartment. Elizabeth is unhappy with his living room seating arrangement. She'd like him to add a chair. He says the couch he has is fine. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. Do you enjoy excessive amounts of podcast listening? Were some of the most enjoyable times of your life experienced with earbuds in? Were your formative years nurtured by the electronic babysitter? Are you annoyed by

crybaby intellectuals who claim that podcast listening is counterproductive and a waste of time? If so, let them know you're proud to be a Potter. Support Judge John Hodgman. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in. Elizabeth, Zach, please rise. Raise your

right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he does not sit? I do. I do. Judge Hodgman?

Oh, why did I get this standing desk? I have not lost the weight that was promised to me and my knees are locked and I can't sit down anymore. But you can, Elizabeth and Zach, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture I referenced when I entered the imaginary courtroom? Elizabeth, let's start with you. I, Claudius. Come on, Elizabeth. I really can't. It went by so quickly, I don't think I could. Well, I appreciate you're having I, Claudius, in the chamber just in case he came up blank. I'm not surprised he came up blank.

That felt a little pandering to me at the same time. Okay, how about this? Vacationland by John Washington. That felt a lot of pandering to lot of pandering that's power pandering there power panned i just assumed you were gonna say a mountain goat song no elizabeth wins was the sound of the gavel thank you very much bit dotly slash painful beaches i have put elizabeth guests into book. Zach, what is your guess? Dr. Seuss. Dr. Seuss. Put that into the guess book.

Probably the worst guess we've ever gotten. I would say I'm not, look, I'm not judging. Well, no, I say I am. That's the name of the podcast. Yeah, that's the worst one. You know, Dr. Seuss has a familiar cadence. It was not represented in that quote. You never know. You mean it was Dr. Seuss has a familiar cadence that was not represented in that quote. You never know.

You mean it was Dr. Seuss in casual conversation, perhaps? Yeah, that's right. Yes. No, Dr. Seuss is the worst guess because, after all, I am not a fan of Dr. Seuss. I have nothing against him. But if I were to quote a children's book author who is not Alice Provenson, it would probably be Margaret Wise Brown, who wrote the book The Wonderful House, which contains the line, all guesses are wrong. The answer is that I was quoting, or rather misquoting, from a solicitation that was put into comic books in the late 1970s

and other magazines by a cartoonist named Robert Armstrong soliciting membership in the Couch Potato Club. Couch potato being a term that Robert Armstrong trademarked and popularized in 1976, Armstrong trademarked and popularized in 1976, later illustrating the Couch Potato Handbook in 1983 written by Jack Mingo. He is considered to be the originator and popularizer of the term couch potato for someone sitting around watching television for a long period of time, at a time when this was considered to be shameful rather than something you bragged about on Twitter. How much TV you binged. That is why the term is no longer in use, because someone who just stares at a screen all day long is considered to be a productive member of society.

Anyway, here we are talking about your living room, Zach, and your desires, Elizabeth. You guys are friends, correct? Yes. Yes. And what are your ages? 31. 32. And you live in Los Angeles. I believe I'm speaking to you. You are located in Maximum Fund headquarters and the studio's there high atop the American Cement Building at Maximum Fund headquarters. Is that true? Yeah. I wish I were

there. I'm in Brooklyn. It would be nice to see your faces and to see the face of my friends, Jesse and Jennifer Marmer. Instead, I'm staring down some corrugated foam in my dark office. So, Elizabeth, you are friends with Zach. You guys watch a lot of TV together. He's got a couch. You want him to get a chair. This is the nature of your beef? Yeah, essentially, yeah.

Tell me more um i want him to get a chair for a couple reasons well first of all i think the whole thing is that zach is not getting a chair out of spite at this oh i'm sure that's the case and i don't like sitting directly next to him it's like weird to turn my head and talk to him. It can only accommodate two people at a time. And I also like to lay down often, which puts us in a weird intimate sort of spacing where my feet are on his lap. And that's weird. But you're just friends. You're just friends.

Yeah, which is why we shouldn't really be touching. Right. That's the common law of new england right where are you guys from originally new england yeah oh okay the forgotten part of new england connecticut oh yeah oh you do listen to this podcast yes that's right one time i listened the states and commonwealths of new england and i failed to mention Connecticut, the nutmeg state. I do apologize. Except. But so you guys, you guys are both from Connecticut, but you've wound up in Los Angeles.

You're friends from childhood? Yeah. From high school. Yeah. Oh, okay, cool. And there's never been anything between you guys? Early, early on. But since then, it's been like solely, we're each other's best friend now.

I feel like we could say that. That is correct. That's awesome. Since high school, you guys have been best friends. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. And so you go over to his house to watch television.

How often do you go over there? Like at least once a week. And you guys mostly just hang and watch your shows and your stories? Yeah, we hang, we watch shows, we cook. All on the couch? Got one of those little sofa hot plates? We cook and then we eat crouched over the only surface there is to eat on, which is the coffee table. Right. And what do you watch?

You know, it's Netflix, it's movies, it's like random YouTube videos, whatever we feel like pulling up. So you are literally Netflix and chilling. We are literally Netflix and chilling. That is correct. So the problem is that Zach's apartment is uncomfortable for you. If I understand this, Elizabeth, because A, he's got one couch, which B, makes you put his feet on his legs in an uncomfortably intimate way. And C, now you're pointing out that he's only got some one coffee table and it's uncomfortable to eat your foods that you've been preparing. Yeah, I mean, I have to sit on the floor.

We cook a lot, so we're always eating there. You cook a lot, Zach. I do feed you a great deal of food that I prepare slavishly. That sounded weird. I do feed you a lot of food that I have prepared slavishly. Are you sure this relationship is not some weird role play? Our role play is that we pretend we're not lovers we pretend we're best friends but with this simmering romantic tension underneath and then we call into podcasts

i don't like the direction this is taken yeah this is i don't blame you uncomfortable turn well yeah but i'm not the one who said i do feed you a lot of food. All right. Let me get to the layout of the apartment here. So your problem, Elizabeth, is that it's not comfortable for you to eat. It's not comfortable for you to sit. It's not comfortable for you to chat with your friend while watching. Because all he's got is this one couch. You want to get a chair.

You want him to get an easy chair, like an armchair, like a recliner, what? Any, any and all of the above. I think it's just very empty and it feels like an adult should have more than just what he has in his apartment. And if he wants to entertain more than one other person, someone has to sit on the floor. And I usually, that's me sitting on the floor eating. So you're not saying that he's not willing to invest in a TV watching chair for you. You're saying he doesn't have another chair? He doesn't have another chair in the apartment. And not only that, there's no place to sit aside from the coffee table and eat. Like there's no dining table with chairs. I submitted some some evidence i am going to go look at this evidence right now but while i review this evidence zach what this really is is that

elizabeth is accusing you of being a bad grown-up how does that make you feel um like a sad grown-up not like a mad grown-up at all. No, not mad. Enough with the Dr. Seuss, Zach. She's saying that you don't have a chair for a guest, that you don't have a proper hosting situation, that you are not a proper grown-up. And I want you to actually respond to this. Okay.

I think there's more criteria to being a grown-up than being able to host people at your apartment, and I think it's my apartment, and I like to live fairly minimally, and it happens to be about an eight-foot-wide couch, which my six-foot-five roommate and I can very comfortably sit on together, and multiple times I've had multiple people, three, and on occasion four people either all sit on the couch or sit on like a big fluffy cushion next to the coffee table very comfortably and all hang out. Which I don't do very often because I really don't entertain multiple people very frequently. It's usually just one person, usually just Liz. I'm now reviewing the evidence.

Thank you very much for your response. Just Liz. I'm now reviewing the evidence. Thank you very much for your response. And the evidence as submitted by Elizabeth had a few pictures, which you can check out to the judge, John Hodgman page at maximum fund.org or on our Instagram at judge, John Hodgman.

And here's a lovely shot of the two of you just chilling out on this couch. Elizabeth does not have her feet pointed at Zach. Rather the, her feet are curled up. She is lying down, but her feet are away from him. And Elizabeth, you are on some pillows there. And this looks pretty comfy to me, I have to say. It's a pretty fun friend hang. My legs are over the side of the couch. I can't stretch them out. I'm impressed, frankly, that he is sitting on the couch and it remains big enough for you to lie on the couch, what looks like reasonably comfortably, all the way to the knee. There's obviously no such thing, except in some kind of madman's imagination, as a couch so big that you could lie on it without touching him while he sat on it.

And in the absence of that kind of couch, this is about as big as it gets. Well, a sectional. You could have a sectional and then we'd have our own area. I also want to point out that— You could just get an Ottoman if that's what you want. Maybe. Or a Hassock. Yeah, a Hassock is another possibility if you're biased against the Ottomans.

You're talking about, just so that I understand from a sectional point of view, you're talking about getting a couch that turns a corner? Or are you talking about a couch that's got a chaise longue built into one end of it? Well, I've definitely- Because I've had both. I've definitely sat on couches before where- No one's accusing you of not having experience sitting on couches uh where you know one person stretches out on the sectional like on the part that juts out and then another person can sit or lay down on the on the long side yeah so you're talking about a chess long like a judder outer like an extra leg thing yeah poking

out into the middle of the living room yeah i've had two of those and they're terrible but that's just me i almost got one of those i actually don't mind the idea of having a sectional with like kind of a chaise section but i didn't get that i got this and now it's there okay and how long has this investment been in your life um a little less than two years it's actually the first time that I ever had to buy furniture, really, because I lived in New York for a long time and you tend to move apartments a lot and a lot of them are furnished or you use the old furniture. And so this is the first time as at least a partial grown up that I've had to buy furniture. You're a full grown up. You're in your 30s. Yeah. You don't get to claim partial grown-upness. As discussed in my book Vacationland,

Truth Stories from Painful Beaches, it is very easy to maintain a kind of stunted adolescence well into your 30s when you live in New York because New York basically keeps you in a state of perpetual economic anxiety. And it's designed to make you feel like you're living in glorified dorm rooms all the time. Zach was moving from dump to dump, sitting his keister down on left behind easy chairs. Now this is his first big boy couch that he bought himself. And his best friend, Elizabeth, is saying, not sufficient for my needs. Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's sponsor. We'll cover more evidence from the case when we get back.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans?

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It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear this sound. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. Court's back in session. You're listening to seating arraignments elizabeth wants her friend zach to add more seating to his living room he says the couch is plenty let's go back into the courtroom for the rest of the evidence zach you sent in a picture of a dog gg oh that's me i sent

my dog a picture of my dog ggigi in because I know you like cute dogs. Oh, excuse me. This has nothing to do with Zach. This is your cute dog, Gigi. She's also uncomfortable with the whole situation. It's cute that she's uncomfortable, though, to be fair. Yeah, let the record

show that she is adorably uncomfortable. But she has got one cute little paw up on her little pillow that is made to look like a big slice of pizza she's pretty cute but you're trying to bias this court against zach with cuteness it has nothing to do with the case i'm throwing this picture out okay hang on first i have to print it out. There we go. I'm going to take it out of the printer and bye-bye, Gigi. Now, Zach, you have now submitted a picture.

You have a picture of the same living best friendly intimacy and comfort that is conveyed in the initial photo that Elizabeth submitted of the two of you sitting on the couch watching one of your favorite stories. You've got your feet up. She's kind of sprawled out over there. There's some throw pillows and blankets around. The photo that you submit, it looks like, how should I describe it? Superman's Fortress of Solitude, if it had shag carpeting. Thank you very much, Jesse Thorne. It is antiseptic in its plainness. All of the pillows have been rearranged perfectly, all the throws carefully draped. There is nothing on the floor but this coffee table and this media console that has a fairly medium-sized television on it, this wall-to-wall carpeting, and then nothing. There's nothing on the walls.

There's no decoration whatsoever. Judge Hodgman, I have to correct you here because I'm looking at the same picture. And when you say there's nothing on the walls, there is one roughly dinner plate-sized mirror, which inexplicably is roughly two and a half feet above the ground. Well, I think that it's been propped on a mantelpiece for a fake fireplace that has never been used. Is that right, Zach? It's pretty much a fake fireplace. It has been used a couple of times, but it's like a little gas thingy.

At any rate, yeah, the mirror is propped on that. Oh, okay it's like a little gas thingy at any rate yeah the mirror is probably okay it's a little gas fireplace right and you didn't occur to you to that you might hang this mirror up you just propped it up um on the mantel it was kind of like snap i'm done snap decision okay you added that tiny mirror before you took the photograph to add warmth to the room i went out and i bought a mirror. What's most striking about this picture of Zach's room, to me, aesthetically, is not the absence of a chair, but rather the fact that probably the brightest color in this entire room, other than white,

is light maple veneer. That's the most vivid color. There may be some navy blue on this throw blanket, but it's hard to tell. That might just be black. Yeah, you've got a lot of beige going on in here.

Your commitment to the single palette of non-color is just, it's admirable in this way. The room is so antiseptic and uncharming that it looks like the worst airbnb that i've never i'd be like oh so it looks a little bit to me like a model home if if some burglars had broken in who for some reason were only interested in accent pieces

burglars had broken in who for some reason were only interested in accent pieces yeah everyone can go check this out on the judge john hodgman page at maximumfund.org or our instagram judge john hodgman and decide for yourself whether my and bailiff jesse's rather cruel descriptions of zach's home and hearth are justified but in the meantime just looking at the layout of the apartment here we got two walls couch is directly against one long wall tv is against the opposite wall uh and then there's an alleyway of pale wall-to-wall carpeting between them where would you see this chair fitting in? To the right of the couch facing like where the television is so or you know like it would be cornering off basically where the that mirror is it would be in front of that. And and it would be facing the TV

or facing? No it'd be like it would be like uh perpendicular to the TV so it would be facing it would it would create like a little corner I think so people could perpendicular to the TV. So it would be facing, it would create like a little corner, I think. So that people could talk to each other. Right. And that's where you would force Zach to sit in his own home so that you could lie down on this whole couch yourself? No, actually, I've been thinking that I would be the one in the chair because I'd like have my own little pod and section that I wouldn't be bothered, I guess. And then if we're going to eat food too, I could like balance it on my lap at least instead of put it on the coffee table. Because then Zach puts his feet up on the coffee table.

It's in that photo. Oh, yeah. No, I saw that in the photo, clearly. Which is monstrous. No, he can put his feet up on the coffee table. It's his house. Next to his plate. Next to where people eat.

Look at his feet. I know. It's not for me, but it's his house. What makes you think that you can redecorate his own house? Because this is the nature of our relationship. Tell me more. Tell me more about the nature of your relationship. Zach, I feel like this is my place to help him.

I think he's living in a little bit of a state of arrested development. I feel like you feel like your housing is kind of temporary. And I just want to, I also want to just help you kind of settle. I don't think you've really settled. I appreciate that. And I'm really happy that you're here. I'm glad that you live here and I don't want you to ever leave. So I want you to be bogged down with lots of furniture and responsibilities

so that you won't- Now we're getting to the core issue. The crux. Yeah, it's some good cruxing going on right here. It's all coming out. Liz's fear of being alone. I'm gonna walk over to my couch and take a little nap while you guys finish this podcast.

Zach, do you feel emotionally encumbered by the acquisition of things? I tend to, yes. Including home goods. Yes. Would your ideal state be to live in an extended stay America?

Where you get free breakfast every day? I do like hotels. My ideal living state is just kind of like a formless white void with nothing. One comfortable seat, one television, and a well-equipped kitchen. I don't like having too much stuff. Do you like having a friend? She's okay.

That's true. I will be clear i love liz liz is like one of the more important people in my life which is the only reason i'm even entertaining this ridiculous ridiculous argument uh of having her redecorate my apartment hang on it zach i will overrule your objection i'm not sure that it's that ridiculous. Initially, I thought, yeah, no, there's no way that Liz can force you to get a chair for her own comfort. But you're living a very spare lifestyle and there's some emotional stuff underneath it. Oh, it's so true. It's so true. What does the minimalist style mean to you? It's just comforting for some reason. I don't really know where it comes from, but for whatever reason, if there's just too much stuff around, whether it's decoration or little tchotchkes or whatever, I just, I always have felt more comfortable just like

physically and like emotionally and aesthetically just in very sparse environments. So that's kind of what I went for. How do you feel about Elizabeth's house? And how do you feel about the way she's decorated her house? Well, as far as decorations go, she can do whatever she wants. It's her place. Also, I think a lot of her decorations have like a lot of sentimental value for her. Whereas I don't have a lot of physical things with sentimental value. I don't think the question was whether Elizabeth is allowed to decorate her home as she sees fit. It was, how do you feel about the way her home is decorated? I don't like it. I mean, it's not my style aesthetically. Describe it. Use your own words to describe

it being as specific as possible. Insufficiently brutal. Okie dokie. He doesn't like that there's a futon, and the futon is, I think that's your biggest problem. Well, Elizabeth, I don't like that either. Come on. You're the one who's trying to be the grown-up here. I know. It's my roommate's futon that he insisted on having.

I would like to hear from Zach what he dislikes about where you live and how you live. I mean, I don't dislike that much about how elizabeth lives but i think i know i was joking around just focus on the first one um in terms of just what don't you like about her decorations we already heard about the futon i want to hear from you it's uncomfortable um does she have too much stuff there's a lot of stuff there again it's hard for me to cast too harsh of a judgment because i know

this stuff means something to her and it's not like oh my god like the skin of my retinas is burning like it's fine it's not stuff that i have to like have in my apartment it's her stuff but the real problem is that it's not super physically comfortable for me to sit on the futon however she will often sit on the futon and then i can sit on like the like fluffier armchair that she has but it's you know it's not like perfectly set up for me to comfortably watch tv there which feels like the same so far what i've heard is that there's an armchair in elizabeth's house and then her roommate's futon elizabeth have you ever heard the phrase, people who live in chairless homes shouldn't throw chairs into other people's homes? It doesn't seem like you're particularly

well kitted out either. I have more seating than needed, actually. We also have a wingback chair that rarely gets used. Oh, that's true. It's in the corner. And then there's a little dining table with a few chairs. Yeah, we also have a dining table with chairs that people can sit and eat. And we have bar stools so you can sit at the kitchen and eat. I like that we're listing every type of chair. I'm realizing now there's actually a lot of seating services in Liz's apartment. Do you have any ergonomic

kneeling chairs? No, no. No, not yet. Not yet. Why don't you grab that wingback and bring it over to Zach's house and just throw it in there. I wouldn't be opposed to it. I'm deeply opposed to that.

Why don't you like that wing back chair? Insufficiently rectilinear. All of the above. I don't know. It doesn't really fit my aesthetic. It's also, it happens to be one of Gigi's favorite places to sit.

And also I have a roommate as well. And so I don't think I can make any like unilateral decisions. How does your roommate feel about the fact that you have no other seating other than this couch? Yeah. Who's your roommate? Mies van der Rohe? I wish. Just somebody with tiny round eyeglasses, please.

Someone with tiny round eyeglasses and an incredibly spare aesthetic. Yeah. Well, what's interesting about my roommate's situation is he has actually brought up the idea of having a chair a couple of times. We've never really like moved on it. It doesn't seem that important. And he's also like almost never there. He's consultant and so he travels at least sunday through thursday and sometimes um and actually coming up soon he'll be gone for like three or four months at a stretch um so i don't think he's got like a super duper strong opinion but i wouldn't want to add anything

without asking him all the same so So your roommate is a consultant. He's going away all the time, and he says in his Mies van der Rohe voice, I wish you would get a chair. And then he goes away, and he comes back, and he says, oh, you did not do it again. No. That was a pretty amazing Mies van der Rohe, by the way. I've never heard Mies van der Rohe, but I'll take it.

It sounds exactly like what John just did. Exactly. Liz, you know that if I were to order in your favor, you would have to pay for this chair, and it would have to be a chair that Zach feels good about. Can you afford a Zach-style chair? Absolutely not.

I mean, I would go halfsies with him. So you're not willing to buy him a chair? No, I want him to do it as an adult man himself because he knows it's the right thing to do. For you. And you. And America. So let me get this straight. If I were to find in your favor, Elizabeth, I would compel Zach to go and buy a chair that is comfortable enough that you will come over and sit in his clean room, in his beige germ-free clean room that looks like where Robert Duvall used to hang around in THX 1138. But it would be on him to buy it.

Yeah, it would be on him. It would be like an armchair, an easy chair, like an Ames chair or something that fits that aesthetic that I think he would really enjoy looking for. Like a Le Corbusier bench. A piece of plywood painted black. I will put a black piece of plywood in my house if that's if that's the rule now you yeah you you're excited about that i can tell liz can sit on that zach does that sound fair to you

um defend yourself okay no tell elizabeth your friend how you feel about her trying to force you to spend your money on something you don't want. I don't think that's fair. It's my apartment. It's my money. It's my aesthetic. I'm there. I can't do the math, but infinitely more often than she is. It's where I live. It's the only place that I've ever really tried to nest and start to feel comfortable as an adult in. And I go over to her house all the time, and I'm more than happy. You know what a nest is? It's messy.

It's what birds make out of pieces of plywood they've painted black. Yeah, a nest is a round, cozy bundle of garbage a bird threw together. Elizabeth, it's none of your business. It's none of your business it's none of your business right this is what Zach is trying to tell you in best friend code language and I'll go to her place well yeah you don't want to go over there that place

is weird I don't like that futon house what's wrong with that Elizabeth why are you making emphatic silent gestures right now oh because he was talking over the judge and I was trying to get him not interrupt that's why That's the last time I'll allow you to pander to me in this courtroom. First you say, I, Claudius. Second, you send me a picture of a cute dog, which I threw away. And now you're trying

to say like, see, judge, I know what you like. I know you don't like people to interrupt you. Well, that's right. I don't. But I'd rather have someone honestly interrupt me than try to game the system for her own comfort in someone else's home. Elizabeth, I'll make the case more strongly than Zach, who's a nice friendy friend, we'll say it. But it is Zach's place. He can furnish it however he wants. It's none of your business. stop talking about it. How do you respond to that? I think that's the obvious argument, but I think in this particular scenario, everybody knows the right thing is to get a chair. Because I don't see how your life is going to deteriorate suddenly because you have a chair. I think it will improve things. He's nodding, by the way. And absolutely, it is none of my business. I'm aware of that. It sounds crazy to impose that on him. But I think we both know the right thing to do. Sometimes a friend has to be all up in your business, Zach.

So obviously, if I were to find in your favor, it would be tell Liz to buzz off. Yeah. Sometimes friends need to tell friends to buzz off. Yeah. Sometimes friends need to tell friends to buzz off. I have a variety of seating options for me in my chambers. They are calling to me now. I'm going to bring my buttocks in to sit and ponder thinker style by Rodin, sculptor, and consider my verdict. I will be back in a moment with my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Zach, do you have a favorite type of chair? You have the eyeglass frames of a man who has a favorite type of chair. Thank you. Actually, not really. I just like really comfy seating. Um, actually not really. I just like really comfy seating. So, uh, if the judge were to rule in Liz's favor and I had to get a chair, push really came to shove. Uh, it would just be a chair that like kind of matched the aesthetic of the couch, which is just kind of like fluffy and comfy and, you know, unfortunately beige. I do, however, like the Le Corbusier chaise lounge. My dad

actually had that growing up. so I really appreciate that. It's not the most practical seat in the world. We should explain that your dad was a tertiary character in a 1970s Woody Allen film. Basically, yeah. Yeah, that's correct. Liz has met him. Yes, she knows. Liz, what's your top chair?

I think you should get an Ames chair. For the low, low price of $4,000. Well, you can get it. You can get it. We can go to like the flea market or something and find like a knockoff one. I'll find you one. I go to Rose Bowl, PCC, Long Beach, Santa Monica. And then we can go shopping for a chair.

And that'll be fun. You'll pay for? We'll talk about it. How do you feel about your chances, Liz? I don't know. I really thought I would have a clear idea of how it was going to go and I really don't. And I think that's okay. Zach, how do you feel?

You know, if the universe is an orderly place, then I feel like it should be a no-brainer. I should be able to furnish my apartment however I want. But I don't know. I think the judge can do whatever he wants. I have no idea. We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney.

I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun

or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. No running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky.

Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close.

Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. So I couldn't help but overhear

Elizabeth, you suggested that Zach and Ames chair? So for those of you listening along, Charles and Ray Ames, E-A-M-E-S, and if I'm pronouncing it incorrectly, I don't care, were a married couple, American designers, famous for their mid-century modern, very clean line designs. The Corbusier Cheslong, the LC4, is also a very famous modern design by Le Corbusier.

It's a big old thing of leather and or cowhide and shaped steel that looks like a dentist chair in the movie Brazil. That's how I'm going to say. Yeah, that's fair. Just so people know what we're talking about. But Elizabeth, so that I understand, is there a particular Ames chair that you're referring to? Because they did design a number of different kinds of chairs. I think that the classic lounge one, that's the one that comes to mind when I think. I didn't even realize.

I thought it was just that design. No, they have some like molded plywood side chairs and molded plastic side chairs. But you're talking about the big, the honker, the big leather and bent plywood, like arm chair, easy chair with the ottoman, right? Yeah. She's talking about the classic lounge chair. The classic lounge chair, which is a thing of complete beauty. a complete beauty. And in either case, whether it's the LC4 or the Ames classic lounge chair, we're talking thousands of dollars for this piece of furniture. Or something that style. It doesn't have to be that exact chair. You're compelling him to buy.

I mean, I can take you to my friend Ivan, who works at the DWR in Pasadena, and he'll probably give you a price break, as he would any Judge John Hodgman listener. I'll be there in five minutes. You're still looking at a chair that retails for $3,800 plus. Right. Okay. Just so I understand what you're demanding of Zach. Zach would happily spend that on a chair if it was something he wanted

and no one else was pressuring him to buy. He would 100% spend that much money well i know i'm supposed to be delivering my verdict here but zach let me follow up elizabeth's comment with a question is your minimalist aesthetic due to um a budgetary issue or do you have the means to get a moderately uh or maybe even extravagantly priced armchair if you really loved it. I could probably spend, like, without really hurting myself, like, let's call it $500 on some sort of chair. I could use a credit card to put a few thousand dollar, like, chair in the mix,

but that doesn't feel like a grown-up move to me. Right. Well, it's definitely putting yourself into credit card debt that you cannot afford is definitely not a grown-up move. And this is all about, I have to thank you, Elizabeth, for finding the crux so early on and sparing me that particular chore. This is about Zach's growing up zach has had a delayed adolescence because he lived in a bunch of dumps in new york city and now he is buying furniture for the first time in his adult life and you know the question is when we look at this uh spare sad haunted airbnb a spare, sad, haunted Airbnb, Zach would say that this is an expression of his adulthood. Whereas you, Elizabeth, say that it is an expression of his refusal to accept adulthood.

Because on the one hand, Zach is buying and decorating his apartment at his own pace and in his own minimalist style. But Elizabeth, you're saying that there are certain things an adult needs to have in his or her home. And that is more than one seating option. seating option elizabeth i have to say listening to the seating options that are in your home made me almost hyperventilate and have a panic attack because too many kinds of mismatching uncomfortable seating options She didn't even mention the beanbag chairs in the Papa San. Yeah, right. Do you also have like a hanging wicker chair?

You got bar stools. You got one leather wing back. You got a Hassock. You got a futon. One of those Huey Newton thrones. Oh, yeah. One of those big rattan peacock thrones. What you have going on, all those different chairs jammed in there,

that to me is like the apotheosis of junky dorm room first apartment aesthetic, and you need to get rid of all that junk. Wow. No one wants to sit on a bar stool ever unless they're at a bar, which is where I need to get soon by the way so i'm not sure whether i can really trust elizabeth's aesthetic in interfering with zach's world zach's incredibly pure spare world of scrubbed surfaces. And the other thing, Elizabeth, that undermines your case is that you are invested in helping Zach grow up. But the greatest gift of being a grown-up

is the ability to be generous. grown-up is the ability to be generous. Being a grown-up and having some security from a job, you guys both have jobs. Yeah. Yes. Sorry. Did you not want to admit that you had a job? Yes.

And you guys aren't making money hand over fist. Zach's saying 500 bucks for an easy chair, and that's a low end. I mean, furniture's expensive. Well, I was thinking like Ikea, but sure. Yeah, I knew you were going to get it in there at some point. Everyone needs to know this couch came from Ikea. I looked it up. Got it?

Do you get your Ikea discount now, Zach? I will say this. If you got an Ames classic lounge chair in there, you know, maybe used, maybe secondhand, maybe from a flea market, maybe a knockoff or something like that. But if you got one of those guys in there, I think it would look great in your apartment and I would come over and sit in it. I like that chair. I've never been able to pull the trigger to get that chair. It's too indulgent and probably too indulgent for you right now at this stage in your life too but i will say this if you went with jesse and somehow got some discount lc4 le corbusier thing that's a weird

chair that i would hate to ever be near because it looks like it's going to attack me while singing german songs but it would totally fit in with the weird psycho killer. Nest. Pleasure through pain nest that you're creating over there. And here's the thing. What I'm trying to say is that you're both young people who have jobs. You're both adults. But in this kind of hazy transitional world, because even though you're in your very early 30s, your lives, it seems to me, still follow the shape of people in their mid 20s.

You have roommates. You got to be careful about your money. You're hanging around watching TV shows all day long. There's simmering will they won't they romantic tension going back to high school. I mean, you know, if you put in some mock turtlenecks and some shouldered over shirts, I'd feel like I was watching an episode of Friends. I'm not going to say you both need to grow up

because you're growing up at your own pace. But the tests of adulthood, one of them is having a chair for a guest, because that is an expression of generosity. And another test of adulthood is having the means or being willing to make the sacrifice to be generous, to buy something for someone else they can't seem to buy for themselves. So whose growth is this court going to enhance? Which of you will this court force to mature? It's a hard one to consider because, after all, Zach makes a very clear and perfectly understandable point.

It's his apartment. But I'm going to say this, Zach. This pains me. If I didn't know that you don't have a kitchen table or any other chairs, that information had not been given to me, I would have found in your favor in a second. Because I was going to say initially, Elizabeth, just pull in a chair from the kitchen and sit in that.

But you don't have any other chairs, dude. It's not okay. That is not acceptable grown-up behavior. And I believe you deserve the chair closest to your dreams. And now we know at least two different styles of chair that are sort of in the ballpark of what you would like, kind of mid-century, modern, comfortable chair. I think you would love to have that chair.

And what Elizabeth is going to do to facilitate this is she is going to research. She's going to do all this stuff. She's going to call Jesse Thorne, go out to estate sales, go to flea markets. She's going to be taking pictures of chairs and sending them to you. And eventually, I'm going to say within six months, no, let's say a year, you have a year to get this done, you're going to approve one of those chairs, and she's going to pay for half. And obviously, you're going to be approving of the price as well. So you have a year to grow up, Zach.

And Elizabeth, you also have a year to grow up. Oh, no. Zach and Elizabeth, you also have a year to grow up. Oh no. Being a grownup means being able to be generous with your time, with your thoughts. And so you're going to give it, at the very least, your time and consideration, Elizabeth, to helping Zach find a chair that will suit his needs

as much as your sprawling needs. And then when Zach approves of it, you're going to pay for half of it. And that way you will remain ambiguous best friends forever. Also, Zach, you need to get a kitchen table or something. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Zach, a chair is in your future. How do you feel? With the one-year timeline and Liz paying for half and me getting to approve the aesthetic and the price, that feels reasonable. What's going to happen when it's month 11 and three quarters? Snap decision. So you're just going to lean it on the mantelpiece. Is that what you mean? Yes. Whatever you get. Elizabeth, how do you feel? Good. I'm glad we got to at least make fun of Zach a little bit, which was a big part of this for me. and i think that it was a fair ruling and i and i and i look forward to it i look forward to the research that i'm gonna get to do are you

comfortable with the fact that this is gonna cost you a couple hundred bucks yeah yeah it's worth it because i'm i care about our friendship at least a couple hundred bucks worth and for me it's worth a couple hundred bucks to make Liz do chair research for 11 and a half months. Right, and to get me to shut up finally about this. Yeah. I'm glad that the true crux of this has revealed itself, which is that you're both happy as long as you have spite towards the other.

Yeah. Well, Zach, Elizabeth, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. It was a pleasure to have you here. Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. Before we get to our swift justice, we want to thank Graham Stanton and Felipe Sobrero for naming this week's episode Seating Arraignments. If you'd like to name a future episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. Just go to Facebook and then type in Judge John Hodgman and then click like. That's how you do

that. We put out our calls for submissions there. You can also follow us on Twitter. I am at Jesse Thorne, J-E-S-S-E-T-H-O-R-N. John is at Hodgman. And you can hashtag your tweets about Judge John Hodgman, hashtag J-J-H JJHO. I always love hearing what people have to say. You can also chat about it on the Maximum Fun subreddit, which is at MaximumFun.reddit.com. This week's episode recorded at Shea Hodge and Maximum Fun World Headquarters overlooking MacArthur Park. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Thanks, Jen. Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with quick judgment. Noah of the Bat Brothers asks. Oh, hi, Noah.

What is the limit of acceptable personal items at an office? Also, the type of personal items. I have a few Transformers on my desk. I want to be clear. I don have a few Transformers on my desk. I want to be clear. I don't have any Transformers on my desk. Noah from the Bad Brothers has Transformers on his desk. I have baseball cards on my desk. Sure. I don't like how Noah is being a little coy about the number of Transformers.

I think specificity should be the soul of that narrative. I'm also interested in whether these are childhood transformers for noah or whether these are contemporary michael bay transformers look i'm gonna tell you straight up i don't like transformers didn't like them in childhood i don't care about michael bay ones either i think that i don't find anything interesting about a truck that can turn into a robot but i was sitting here going like what would be be a scenario in which having a few, a tasteful number of Transformers on your desk would undermine your professionalism? And you know what? I can't think of one. I was like, well, banker.

That'd be fun. Have Transformers there. Social worker. Everyone would be happy about that. Kids would love to see those Transformers. Priest. That would be the coolest priest of all time. Forget it.

Look to God. those transformers priest that would be the coolest priest of all time forget it look to god the desk is your terrain which you may decorate as you see fit as long as it's not interrupted your workflow you shall put as many transformers as you wish i myself enjoy on my desk a molded plastic figurine made by a German company that is a silverback gorilla holding a samurai sword. He's got one cyborg robotic arm, one cyborg robotic leg, and his other non-cyborg leg, his foot is wearing a sporty tennis shoe. It's fantastic. My only caveat is that you are sending a message to the world from what you put on your desk. It is your terrain to decorate at will, as I say, but if you have, let's say, more than 60 Transformers, people might stop giving you high responsibility jobs. Well, that's good news for Noah and good news for the Buster Posey autographed baseball that sits immediately behind my chair. This is sent in by a listener, by the way.

A listener who works for a ball club sent me that. You know what I would say, Jesse Thorne? What's that? If you felt comfortable taking a picture of your desk or work area and posting it on our Instagram account, I'll clean up my own desk and take a picture of it. And then people can see how we decorate our desks. Yeah. I'm on board for that.

Because I admire your beautiful less is more aesthetic when it comes to your workspace. And I, and I would like to emulate it. That's it for this week's episode. Submit your cases at maximumfund.org slash JJHO or email Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. No case is too small. We'll see you in San Francisco in January and, of course, across the world and all the ships at sea on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Do we really reach all the ships at sea? Yes, it's compulsory. Whoa, that's amazing. Compulsor C. Goodbye.