Judge John Hodgman - Shut Your Payhole

Episode Date: November 5, 2025

Genevieve brings the case against her dad, Mike. He won't let her pay for him when they go out. If Genevieve does manage to pay, Mike keeps track so he can restore the balance later. As the father, he believes he should always pay his own way. Genevieve wants to be able to pick up the tab without Mike adding the transaction to his mental ledger. Who's right? Please consider donating to Al Otro Lado. Al Otro Lado provides legal assistance and humanitarian aid to refugees, deportees, and other migrants trapped at the US-MX border. Donate at alotrolado.org/letsdosomething.We are on TikTok and YouTube! Follow us on both @judgejohnhodgmanpod! Follow us on Instagram @judgejohnhodgman!Thanks to reddit user u/SomethingFoul for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at reddit.com/r/maximumfun! Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Join at $5 a month at maximumfun.org/join!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff, Jesse Thorne. This week, Shut your payhole. Genevieve brings the case against her dad, Mike. Mike won't let her pay for him when they go out. If Genevieve does manage to pay, Mike keeps track so he can restore the balance later. As the father, he believes he should always pay his own way. Genevieve wants to be able to pick up the tab without Mike adding the transaction to his mental ledger. Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide, please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. In extreme cases, when different people start shoving credit cards in my face, saying everything but pick me, pick me, I am polite, but firm. I tell the contenders something

akin to, oh, you're all so wonderful to want to pay for dinner, I wish I could pick all of you. And then I take a step back from the table saying, I cannot wait to see who wins. And then I walk away. Bail of Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you, God or whatever? I do.

I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he always makes Jennifer Marmer pick up the tab? I do. That's not true. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Yes, thank you very much, Jesse. E. Thorn and Genevieve and Mr. Genevieve's dad, aka Mike, you may be seated for an immediate

summary judgment in one of your favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced as I entered this internet courtroom? Let's start with dad. Mr. Mike, what is your guess? I would guess it was from a pawn sacrifice movie made in about 2000. Pawn sacrifice. Is that a chess movie? Yes, it is. pawn sacrifices on the board um well that sounded to me like a quote from the lyrics of the song everything is exactly what it seems by the band slowrunner off of their album no disassemble sounds exactly like lyrics from that song yes wow check and mate dad yeah uh but advantage hodgeman because all guesses are wrong.

I'm sorry. There's no way that you might have guessed it. This came from an essay printed by KQED in San Francisco on their website back in 2008, I believe it was, excuse me, 2009, written by professional Bay Area waiter at the time and now food writer, a guy named Michael Procopio about the etiquette of multiple people trying to pay for the check and how annoying it is to servers when that happens. And the two people, or more than two people, fight and won't let it go. And then the server has to adjudicate.

And no one hired them to be a judge. Let me come in and I'll figure it out. That's what we're going to do today. I had not heard of Michael Procopio before discovering his writing, why, just today. He currently has a substack, which is called Spatchcock, where he continues to write about food. And in fact, just a few days ago, he wrote a very moving essay about his own parent, or I should say, sadly, the loss of his mom who died at the age of 82, not really being able to eat or drink anything in the later parts of her lives. And the meal that he and his family had to honor her afterward and was a very indulgent meal that began with one of her favorite foods when she was able to eat anything she wanted, which was an iceberg wedge salad. which I know you enjoy very much, Jesse, right?

An iceberg wedge salad? I love an iceberg wedge salad. Yeah, it's just a chunk of iceberg lettuce, smothered usually in blue cheese dressing and often bacon bits. And the bacon bits reminded him of a phrase, a German phrase, that he knew. And I just learned today. And that German phrase is kumerspex, kumerspex.

And kumerspex is a German word. Do either of you know or any of you know what that? means? I don't. It refers to the tendency to overeat during times of emotional crisis. Or let's just say to indulge. But it literally translates, speaking of bacon bits, Kumerspex literally translates to grief bacon, which is a concept that I'm very familiar with. So anyway, Michael Procopio, good essay and some insight into how servers feel when people fight for the check. which is what brings you here. You are of a father-daughter fight for the check.

And one of you is going to pay the bill forever. Is that very ominous? Who brings this case to my court? I do, Your Honor. Genevieve. That's correct. What is the nature? This is a class action case, it sounds like, to me,

because you are one of some number of siblings who have the same dispute with your dad, Mike. Is that correct? That's right. There are many interested, parties and how this case turns out. I am bringing my dad to your court because he will not accept me paying for anything. Seems like whether it is, even on the car right here, he said that for this trip he would pay for the gas. He wanted to buy some Hodgman merch. He said that

Stay tuned for some updates on some holiday merch a little later in this program for announcing some brand new Hodgman, Judge John Hodgman holiday merch. So he'll be very excited about that, Mike. Yeah. Yes, I will. Ready for Christmas. He also wanted to pay for lunch on the way back. And this is recurring through, I mean, pretty much anything that we do together that costs any money whatsoever. he he will not allow me to pay him without money then also coming out of his his wallet so so it's not

just meals it's anything that you might I mean Mike when Christmas comes around I take it you celebrate Christmas yes and and your children give you gifts do you then give them the retail value of those gifts and cash back no not not Christmas but I have to reciprocate with a gift of equal value. Oh, so you have to see the receipts. Well, I celebrate Christmas after I've gotten my gifts, then I know how much I have to give to each child. You're saying that there's a special holiday after Christmas called Mike Smith,

when restitution is made. Yes, I think it's the fair way to go about things. And we're joining you both. in North Carolina, where you were from the Tarheel State. That's right. Specifically, well, I know you're recording in Mount Airy, but where all are you from in North Carolina? Mike? I'm from Wilkesboro.

Genevieve is from Boone. I live in Boone, North Carolina. Close. It's 30 miles apart. That's pretty close. That's northwestern-ish, right? Yes, yes. North Carolina.

That's right. Beautiful country. Yes, it is. Beautiful country there. I hope that we'll be able to return there. Maybe play the Appalachian Theater in Boone, North Carolina. Yes, please. Please do. We would love to have you. You guys listen to a little podcast about the states called E Pluribus Mato. That's just a plug.

I have not heard that podcast. No, no. But I will. Well, it's another podcast in the Maximum Fun family of podcasts. Really good friend of mine hosts that. Well, Janet Barney, but I also do it. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. And it says here, Genevieve, that you're a baker and Mike, you are a retired driver. Is that correct? That's correct. Yes. That's right. And full-time granddad now.

Yeah, yeah. And with a part-time stints as a convenience store clerk. Oh, wonderful. And do you bring your grandchildren to work? It's been known to happen, yes. How many grandchildren do you have? One more? Seven.

Whoa, that is more. And what is your grandfatherly name? What do they refer to you at? Pop, Pop. Pop, Pop. That's what I called my granddad. Mm-hmm. Pop-pop.

Well, I called my maternal grandfather Pop-op. My paternal grandfather, I called Grandfather. Don't know how that happened. But Pop-P was married to Nan-N-N-N or Nan, and my great-grandmother, who lived to 102, was known as Big NAN. John, you laugh and joke about having a grandfather that works part-time at a convenience store. That's basically a dream for a kid to go to their grandpa's work at the convenience store, right? like just absolutely unlimited slim gyms and now and later. Yeah, that's true.

That's true. Your grandchildren come in and you slip them some free Zagnut bars? Well, no, I teach them to work the register. I was going to say, we're not going to get you fired here, but maybe we are. Well, no, they already knew it. And they just scratch their head about it. And Genevieve, you're a baker? That's right.

A professional baker or a home baker or a mix? A mix. I'm a home baker, but I have my home kitchen certified to bake out of, and I sell it farmers markets. What is your favorite thing to bake? Breads or pastries? Pastries. Yeah.

Okay. Genevieve, you represent your siblings. How many siblings do you have? So I am one of six children. Wow. I am five. of six. Where are you in the order?

Number five. Yep. I'm five out of six. Yep. I'm the penultimate child. The penultimate child. It's a great title for your memoir. Oh, thank you.

And obviously you couldn't get the baby to represent the family because they're too busy being the baby. That's right. And they're getting everything. So how did you get nominated to bring your dad to court? Well, we've all had this issue with my dad for, well, how old are you, dad? How old are you? Yeah, for the entirety of my life.

But I'm the one who brought the case because of an inciting incident at a concert that we went to that I bought us tickets for. And at that show, I mentioned to my dad that if he had guests that he wanted to bring with us, he could have done so and he completely rejected the idea of me paying for guests that he invited thinking that would be

just I mean if I if you won't even let me pay for him then obviously he won't let me pay for an extra guest that is his brand how many people does your dad normally roll in with when he's going to a concert well normally normally just him but it might be like

his grandsons my nephews could be possible attendees. And so I just mentioned that as a possibility. So you said to your dad, what was the concert? It was a Michael Flynn concert, the same band that I referenced in my guess earlier in the show. Got it. Say the name of that band again?

The band's name is Slow Runner. And I have turned my dad into a fan of his music and have, he agrees with me that artists work hard at their craft and they deserve to be paid. And yet, he won't allow me to bring more fans into the fold by bringing his other family members that might be with him along to the show on my dime. So let me understand, you're like, if you want to bring some of your 23 nephews or whatever. Yeah. you're like, if you want to bring any of the nephews, I'll pay for them. And your dad was like, no, they don't deserve music.

Correct. He was like, I will bring them, but I will pay for them. I'm not sure how the conversation ended. It just seemed that he felt like he couldn't invite them at all. So I guess just not even bringing them. Reality. So let's see. I have in my notes here.

I believe this concert was. January 24th of this year. Oh, do you know what? That's the birthday of my human daughter. Oh. I'm surprised you didn't invite her. She could have come. I would have been happy to pay.

His tickets. You would have been happy to pay for her? Oh, I wouldn't allow it. I wouldn't allow that. His tickets are very reasonable. So I'm happy to bring along more friends. And his reluctance to have any money flow in his direction has been a problem across the board, as we've talked about, restaurants, theater productions,

anything like that. And it has always been annoying, but what pushed me over the edge to bring this to court was him not allowing those tickets to the concert because, in my mind, now that is an artist losing out on potential money for that first concert ticket, and then if that person becomes a fan, the merch that they might buy, the future concert tickets that they might buy, friends that they might then bring it. Who knows what the end result is? And I think that the artist needs as much fan excitement as they can get.

So you're really not bringing this case against your dad on behalf of you and your siblings, but on the behalf of Slow Runner, the band? That is my original intent. And that's correct. They lost out on some major nephew income. That's right. And you are seeking damages. That's right.

That would be the E Street ban at this point if it weren't for this butterfly flapping in China. That is correct. And as when I then told the family about bringing this case, a lot of them piled on saying, oh, yes, finally someone's going to get dad for this because he's been doing, you know, the same thing in other arenas. So my main concern is artist pay and how his behavior is impacting the artist performances that we might go to. But that behavior does spill over into other areas, and my siblings are concerned or would like to see change more broadly speaking. Okay. Mike, your daughter is accused you of not wanting to have any money flow in your direction.

We've discussed this concert. Tell the story of Slow Runner and the invitation to the concert from your point of view. I will not invite anyone if I'm not prepared to pay. My grandsons or not, I was able to go to the concert and up on. the merch. And by the way, there is an upcoming concert in early December. And both of my grandsons are invited. We're invited by me without your input. Yeah, Genevieve. And I am prepared to pay. Who paid for your ticket to the concert in January? Well, I don't see anything on my So I suppose that I paid.

Did I pay for gas down there? Yes, you did. Oh, I did. And you left a 20 in my car. And I left a 20 in your car. Left a 20 in your car. What a nice dad, Genevieve. Why are you taking your dad to task for being such a nice and risk?

But that's what dads like to do if they're lucky enough to be able to be generous. Just let him pay his way. And also freeze out your nephews and his grandsons as he wishes, apparently. And also get your car windows broken. Yeah, right. In my 20s and even... You're making this argument about slowrunner losing out on income. And I'm just going to...

I'm just throwing that out of court right now. Because I feel like you wouldn't be here if this were not something that you and your siblings also have a personal feeling about, not just a fan feeling about in terms of slow runners in gun. Well, that is correct. That concert was what I call the inciting incident, and that is what led me to make the claim against him, and that's what just tipped me over the edge. But this has been problem behavior, as I said, my whole life.

I don't know. Why is it a problem? Is it a problem for you, Mike? No. I mean, when you say you work at the convenience store, or it's not a situation where you're secretly living in the convenience store because you can't afford to live anywhere else. No, no. I have a nice home and I live alone and my grandson, one of my grandsons is a frequent guest there. As long as he pays his own way.

It cleans up after himself would be better. Okay. Not 19 years old. You would pay for him because he's your grandson. That's part of the job of being a pop-pop. I have an obligation as the father and as the grandfather. And my daughter's insisting on paying for me is a way it's a secret power struggle that she's into. She wants me to owe her something.

And I'm not going to owe. Absolutely not. That is not correct. Well, she may not know that consciously. Mike, I apologize. I interrupted you. You said, your daughter wants me to owe or something. And then you started to say, I'm not going to owe. Please finish that sentence. I'm not going to have an obligation, legal, social, moral to anyone. I am going to pay my own way. And if I invite guests, I will offer to pay their way. And if I, if. If we go out for a meal, I don't always win, but I usually can pick up the check. And it's my status as the head of the family. Potter Familius. Yes.

This is like a scene George R.R. Martin cut from the Game of Thrones books. The stakes are so high here. Yeah. Protect Mike's honor. Jesse, you just used one of my dad's. favorite words. I just want you to know that. Honor is very big with him. Oh, sure. I can imagine. I mean, I would, with that in mind, like, when you pay for dinner or when you pay for gas or when you leave a 20 behind in the car, how does that make you feel, Father Mike pop up?

Like I have performed my duty. And when you lose at a game of who pays the dinner check, how does that make you feel? like I have to enter it on my ledger. Is this a literal ledger or just a black mark in your soul? I can generally, it's a black mark in my soul, but when I need to write it out, it's there. I guess it would be a red mark on your soul. Yes. That's right.

And does it weigh on you afterwards? You think about it? Generally, the ledger has two columns. There's what is right. for me to pay, I have limited means. So then there is reality of what I can pay. And the balance is generosity that they have, my children have for me. And I graciously accept because I've done all that I can, which is all that duty requires. You're retired and you mentioned that you live in a nice home, but I presume that you have a fixed income or you have to be careful

about your budgeting as we all do these days, right? Even more careful right now. Yes. Right. And how many of the siblings live in North Carolina, Genevue? That would be four of us. And where's the other one? One is in Germany.

One is in California. They're eating that grief bacon in Germany. Yeah, I was embarrassed not to know that word for the obvious. I don't know. Me too. It's wonderful, Mike, that some, you know, the majority it would seem of your children, and I presume grandchildren, you know, it's a lot of, a lot of, a lot of parents pay, pay for their children for various things in order to bribe them

to spend time with them. Do you, do you worry that if you're not carrying your weight and or treating them financially, you know, to a little, to, you know, drop into 20 in the car, that your penultimate child, Genevieve, will stop showing up. Well, I'm a hoarder. Okay. That's understandable. I hoard things. I don't like to throw things away. Even if it's old, I'm old. And I do know that the time is coming when I will be pushed aside.

And I don't wish to be pushed aside. Pushed aside by your children or by the grim hand of death. Sorry, to be blunt. I'm just trying to understand. By my children, death has nothing to do with it. I want them coming to visit my grave. Well, just, you know, make sure that there's a stack of 20s on that. I bet you they'll come.

Genevieve, when your dad says he's a hoarder, I'm sure he doesn't mean that in a clinical sense. Like, there's not a problem in his houses there. I mean, I think that, I think some of my siblings would like to see. certain things cleared up but But it's not like the master bedroom is full floor to ceiling with with rotting pumpkins or anything. No, no.

Okay. And Genevieve, do you provide a grandchild to pop up or are you a child-free person? I do not have children. So I get to be a fun aunt. I mean, that's a heck of a lot of fun. It's a good position to be in. When your dad says that

he feels like if you pay for him, he'll be, in debt. How does that make you feel? Sad because I would like him to just be able to receive something without having that burden of debt foisted upon his psyche. Well, debt is an anxious state. That's not something that you want for your dad. Correct. Yeah. But, you know, when I talk about parents bribes,

bribing their adult children to spend time with them by paying for meals or whatever it might be. I mean, that's something I know very well. One thing I know less well is the feeling that adult children have for their mom and dad a feeling that they're in debt to them and maybe they should pay for me for once. Maybe that will come in time. But Mike, I mean, look, I love both of my adult children and they're very generous people. I don't mean to throw them under the bus the way you iced out your grandchildren from that concert. But, you know, is there another way of looking at it, Mike, perhaps, that Genevieve feels that she loves you and owes you a lot for her upbringing and I presume kindness and love

and that it might bring her pleasure to treat you for once? I feel that bringing Genevieve and her siblings face to face with the fact that there is a business side to every relationship is the most wonderful gift I can give her, despite whatever sadness it might bring. There's a business side to every relationship. Do you want to tell me a little bit more about that philosophy? Would you mind telling me where I can buy some Judge John Hodgman merch, please? I don't mind at all, Jesse. What's the URL for the for the store?

That's www. www.maxfundstore.com. And I might also say there's another URL that I enjoy. Bit.com. An animated cartoon for adults and young adults. That's PG-13 set in North Carolina itself. Want to become a member of Maximum Fun. Go to MaximumFund.org.

join. We'll like you better. I think we've settled a lot of a lot of debts right there, Mike. Thank you very much for letting us get the plugs out. Certainly will. Genevieve, have you ever paid for you? I mean, you paid for these concert tickets for your dad, right? Yes? That's, well, I am the one who purchased the tickets, but I don't know that I would say that I paid for them because I believe my father reimbursed me. in the end. So I think I would still consider that he bought his own ticket and then some, but I was the one who initially purchased and put down the funds for getting those tickets initially.

Has there ever been a time when you've paid for something and actually gotten away with it? Yes. We went also earlier this year to a, I guess it wasn't a performance. I'm not sure what to call it. It was an event that the Wilkes playmakers were having. My dad lives very close to the theater that the county theater group performs at. And we went to, they had like a Renaissance evening that we went to earlier this year. And I did pay for those tickets. However, the only way that I successfully paid for those was by, fibbing just a little bit. When my dad tried to reimburse me, I told him that a mysterious benefactor had already taken care of it, which he took to mean my older sister, and I let him believe that. But in fact, the mysterious benefactor was me. Is this the first time you're hearing of this deception, Mike?

Yes, it is. Wow. let the record show that if you're watching on our YouTube channel at Judge John Audubod, there's a plug. Mike is very clearly and visibly shook at this moment to understand that the sisters got together to deceit. Like, mysterious, why don't you just tell him, oh, no, the tickets were free. Don't worry about it. I want him in a raffle. Oh, there's just, he, he wouldn't have believed that tickets were free and he would have been able to very easily check on that.

I think he, I wouldn't have put it past him to when we'd walk through the door and show our tickets for him to have asked the ticket taker what, what tickets cost so that he could have gotten that information. I didn't want to lie in a way that would be found out so easily. I'm already deeply in debt than your older sister, by the way. Yeah. In financial debt or sort of more. Moral ethical debt.

Moral ethical debt. What do you owe? Genevieve, can you say the name of your older sister? Yes, Teresa. The mysterious. Teresa is the mysterious benefactor. Yes, our mysterious benefactor. And I told her to accept this little twisting of the truth.

She accepted it. And I knew that my dad would accept that because he had already run up a debt with my sister. So I knew that he could just kind of let that go. And that would be a way I could kind of slip in an event that I paid for. Mike, how much do you owe mysterious Teresa in moral money? Two or three years rent. Oh, because you lived with her for a time? No, because she and her husband have bought a house in North Wilkesboro where I reside. I see. You reside in the house. That is correct, and I'm paying no rent. And she complains when I try to pay some upkeep. Okay, I get it then. That is a fair amount of moral money. But going back to you, Genevieve,

I mean, I'm sure, mysterious Teresa and her partner are very happy to have you living. in a comfortable home nearby. But I could understand why you might feel a little bit of, well, debt, indebtedness. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Genevieve, have you bought a house for your dad yet or what? I've not got quite that far in my financial journey. Why don't you build him a garden shed out of banana bread?

Just a thought. I'll look into that. Thank you for the suggestion. I did pay for the tool shed on the property. Mike, you don't mind my saying, drop in the bucket, okay? True, true. Yeah, you're never, yeah. You're going to be clawing your way out of this one, this hole for a long time.

Sorry, I'm winding you up a little bit. I apologize. Well, thank you. I mean, obviously neither of you want to be a hardship to the other. Do you feel, Mike, and maybe you won't want to comment on this as a dad, but, like, do you feel, are you worried that you are causing your own kids to overextend themselves financially? Yes, with an explanation. The explanation is, I don't take anything for granted. Her older sister, all of my children are doing quite well.

Great. But I don't believe that's the picture for tomorrow necessarily. I mean, I hope. I try to be optimistic. Yeah, well, we're all trying. Yes, but I don't take anything for granted. But on the other hand, when you got away with foisting the debt off to Mysterious Teresa, how did you feel? Glad to have that settled and to have moved forward in a way.

that would not result with him trying to leave a 20 in my car at the end of the night and put him out any, but also a bit sad that I had to bend the truth in order to do so, and also wondering how long my older sister might let me use her as the scapegoat for future outings. Several other siblings. You can burn through all of them. slowly over a several years. But my dad will only really accept that from the oldest sister because of already being maybe so far in the red. So he wouldn't necessarily accept, I don't think, if I told him.

I do kickbacks for the older sister. Okay. What I can afford. Well, I, yes, I do know that. So why do you feel like it's difficult to accept? generosity from Genevieve specifically since she's sitting right there and this is probably the most uncomfortable question I could ask. Because she needs to understand that the sadness that she feels for not being able to give to me

is the sadness of life. That's what life is. Wow. Wow. I mean, I don't think my wow is disbelief. I'm like, that's, that's, there's something there that I really need to take in and process. I might be thinking, I can loan you my copy of philosophy for dummies. No, no, no, no.

I don't want to be indebt to you, Mike. Don't loan me anything. Genevieve, it says here that if I were to rule in your favor, you would like me to rule that, that your father, Mike, quote, get over it, unquote. and I think that's ever going to happen and let you invite whoever you want to invite to the upcoming slow runner concert

and pay for it. Is that right? Is that what you would like me to rule? Tell your dad, get over it. So I would like for him to not be allowed to pay any

through any means for tickets to experiences that I invite him to, that he accepts. But don't you think your dad enjoys being sneaky in the payback department? Well, let me ask you, Mike, when you hit that $20 bill in her car, where'd you hide it? Just on the passenger seat, I think, where it would be easily seen. Yeah.

So it wasn't hidden exactly. It was hidden in plain sights. No. It's like I dropped it. Yeah. That's one of my favorites. I hit you drop a 20. Yeah.

I like that. I like that game a lot, Mike. I was just at the Bell House last night. Yeah. Performing with the thrilling adventure hour, another plug. And the bartender gave me a drink for free. And I said, oh, well, thank you very much. By the way, I found this money on the ground.

You know who it belongs? do. At least you didn't leave it in his car. The leaving it in the car part is as a lifetime urban resident. The idea of leaving a 20 in a car is so upsetting to me. Yeah, I'm sorry, Jesse. This is not the Bay Area or Los Angeles. This is North Carolina. Yeah, well, I gave her a laptop. I left it on the driver's seat. Yeah, I was down a catalytic converter, so I put it on the dash cover. I bought her, I bought her a diamond brooch, and I left it on the rear left tire next to the car keys. Trick. Drive away.

You're a man after my own heart. I know you love buying diamond brooches. Nick, in a week or two. Yeah. I love that. I love this. I mean, look, your dad just wants to be generous. He's a.

It's, you know, I know you're both being coy about your age. He's a, he's a vibrant, retired gentleman who keeps a ledger. How do you expect me to force this gentleman to change, Genevieve? Well, that- Through sheer willpower? My hope is that a ruling from your court, because my dad does believe in honor, and he did agree to abide by your ruling, I think that if you were to rule that he must accept me paying for some of these outings that he would abide by that.

So this is like a trick. You've tricked your, he's sneaking money into your car and you're tricking him into a fake oath on a dumb podcast that you know, out of a sheer sense of honor, he will take seriously even though it's, it's, it's, All a joke. I learned from the best. How do you, do you feel proud of your sneaky daughter, your sneaky penultimate? I have a certain admiration for that response. That all depends on if I rule in her favor, Mike. I could still rule in your favor.

Yes. And I would suppose, of course, I would think that was the correct ruling. And if I were to rule in your favor, it would be to tell Jen, Genevieve to get over it and just let you do whatever you're going to do. Yes, and reality, my continuing age and frailty and the will make this sentence correct soon enough, sooner than I would like. You want Genevieve and your other kids to just leave you alone and let you pay and balance your books. that is that is correct and they're they're missing one part of this whole thing business is a part of every relationship and so is the con I'm running a con here wow I'm running a con because when

the inevitable begins to take away my abilities to go to the gym and to take care of myself and I need to be shuffled off to a assisted living facility, right, they will feel obligated. And so I am running a con here. So there's, but there's also honor, there's con, and there's, uh, business. There are, there, yeah, it's honor con and business. Yes. Uh, I understand. Very specifically, Genevieve.

We have this upcoming show. the slowrunners show. If I were to rule in your favor, what would you propose? You pay for the tickets? Well, so I actually was really surprised to hear my dad bring up this show as an example because I think it's the worst example

he could have brought up because the slow runner show that's happening I specifically am paying for already. I'm bringing this artist in for a birthday party that I have privately paid for as like a private... Oh, like a house park? Yeah.

So there's no tickets involved for people to possibly buy in that case. And it's a party that I am paying for. I guess it's a sneaky way to get my dad to a show that he really can't even possibly pay for. So you've got slowrunner coming to your house for your birthday? Well, my house is not big enough

for the party that I wanted to, so we rented a private space. But yes, I do have Michael Flynn of Slow Runner coming to Boone for a private show for my birthday. Because I'm turning 40 this year. So kind of doing a bigger party than I normally would. And welcome, welcome to the race to the grave. Pop-pop and Jesse and I are already enjoying. Thank you. Do you think that a financial donation to Michael Flynn slash slowrunner, Mike, would be a sufficient clearing of the books for you at this birthday party? I will contribute anything that's left over after buying my Judge John Hodgman merch. Well, I think I've heard everything I need to make my decision. Looks like those plugs paid off.

I'm going to go into my chambers. And I'll be back in a moment with my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Genevieve, how are you feeling about your chances right now? Pretty nervous. I thought that I had a slam dunk case. And I think that my dad actually maybe prepared more strongly than I anticipated. and I didn't maybe get to make some of the points that I had against him.

So I'm a bit nervous that he's going to be allowed to continue in his ways. Mike, how are you feeling about your chances? I was surprised at how strong my daughter's accusations were. And I think that last one, when I invited your nephews, I thought that I was going to be paying. I didn't know. And there is one concert that Slow Runner is giving where if the invitations are accepted, I will be paying for Asher. But there's no tickets to buy.

But no, there are two performances. And I'm paying for them both. And you're paying for them both. Correct. Oh, no. Okay. It's happening in real time. As for a continuance, be able to prepare.

Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when he comes back with his verdict. Judge Hodgman, we have brand new holiday merch. That's right. We promised it to Mike and Genevieve, and we're promising it to you now, available for you. you in the Max Fund store. We have brand new holiday merch starting with a scented candle, right, Jesse? Oh, I love this scented candle. The scent of this candle, pure justice smell. That's what it says on the Aaron Draplin designed, beautiful label. It's like a fresh cotton sense. It's like a fresh scented candle. And it comes in a glass and it's a 100% soy wax that

has been fairly dispensed in this year, 2025, for the season. And, and it's a hundred percent. And, And you can get it right now, as well as our brand new corduroy caps. Now, corduroy, that's the court of the king. Tell us about these caps, Jesse. John, for years and years and years, over 75 years, I've been opening this program by asserting that only one can say who is right and who is wrong. That's right. But with our new caps, you can decide. Yes, that's right.

One of our new caps says right. and one of our new caps says wrong. So whether you're buying one for yourself or as a gift for someone else, you can really make a point about where you or they stand. Who's wearing the right hat? Who's wearing the wrong hat? Only you can decide by going to the Max Fund store.

And as well, we have cozy goth merch. People am asking me about this for a long time. We have a matching sweatpants, sweatshirt, a leisure loungewear featuring a brand new and very adorable cozy goth illustration of a cozy goth couple getting cozy for the season created for us expressly by the wonderful Tom DJ of Bossman graphics. It's an oversized crewneck and sweatpants set only available at the maximum fun store.

What's the URL to get there, Jesse? That's maxfunstore.com. Maxfundstore.com for our new cozy. Ozzy goth sweat sets, those really cool right and wrong corduroy caps, and our brand new holiday candle featuring pure justice smell. Also, I got a big show coming up in New York City. John's going to be there. He won't be on stage, but he's going to be there. November 15th at the People's Improv Theater. I will be joined by Jad Abamrod, H. John Benjamin, Tony Shalub, Kristen Anderson Lopez, and Bobby Lopez, and Josh Gondelman. It is a 25th,

anniversary show for Bullseye. So excited to be doing that. Hopefully there are still a few tickets left for you, but they are going fast. So go to maximum fun.org slash events to get those tickets and make sure that you're subscribed to Bullseye with Jesse Thorne for all the great interviews that I will conduct on that stage. Happy anniversary, Bullseye, we love you. Thank you, buddy. Let's get back to the case. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. You may be seated. Before I render my judgment, there was one question that I realized that I forgot to ask Genevieve. You heard your father explain that part of the reason that he wants to continue to be financially generous to all of his kids and grandkids is that he anticipates

a time when later he's going to need some more and fairly expensive, presumably expensive, or more expensive, you know, assistance as he gets older and is less independent. And I think he's concerned that when that time comes, maybe he'll be out of money because he spent it all on slow runner concerts or something. And I guess my question to you is, can you assure your dad, do you think, that if and when he needs more help, more generosity, more. Well, not generosity, but more help financially and otherwise as he gets older. Are you going to freeze him out or are you going to be there for him?

Well, it's hard to... I don't think you should really be going unwell at this point. I mean, it doesn't matter. You should say, yes, it's going to be fine. And even if you're lying, that's okay. Yes, it's going to be fine. It doesn't matter. I'm not glad to leave you anyway.

Well, I don't blame you, Mike. No, my hesitation is not in trying to decide my answer. It is merely, I guess, being hit with, you know, the realities of parents getting older and thinking that through. And it is something that I've discussed in my households with my husband. I know that some of my other siblings have already been. somewhat involved in care for older parents, and I'll just say that, well, I don't have this to offer currently in the real estate market in Boone is quite tough. When I am looking for the next house to buy that could have a bit more room in it, it is the plan to have a second

living space for any of our parents that might need that, should that be a situation that would work out for my dad or, you know, other older people in our lives. Other older people. Yes. You're not going to cut them loose just because you bought them concert tickets at one point. Absolutely not. You know where I hear they have free universal health care is in Germany. I don't know.

It's interesting. It's interesting. It's a developed country. And it's a wealthy country. For some reason, they provide for universal health care. I don't know. My son loves it there. Yeah.

I mean, maybe they don't understand that there's a business side to every, that all human relationships are financial and transactional. That was maybe the most controversial thing, perhaps, that it sounded more controversial, though, Mike, than I think that it sounded more controversial, though, Mike, than I think that It is because I do think that you're on to something there. And it's something that I've observed in this court as well. And now I'm segueing into the verdict, I suppose. But, you know, like I've said on the podcast before that, you know, you get a lot of advice,

often from parents that it doesn't hurt to ask, you know, like, you know, it doesn't hurt to ask, go ahead and ask that friend for a favor or go ahead and ask that former teacher for a recommendation or go ahead and ask if you can go to that party for free or whatever it is. Like, parents normally are often saying to their kids, it doesn't hurt to ask, whereas, Mike, I think you know what I've come to understand, which is that it always hurts to ask. That when you are asking of a relationship, you are, in a sense, spending down a little bit of goodwill, a little bit of goodwill, a little bit of investment of goodwill. And some asks are necessary. Sometimes you have to ask for financial help or support in certain ways, and sometimes you've got to do it, and oftentimes people will be very happy to provide it. But it's true that you want to be cognizant, right, of keeping the books balanced. You don't want to be a person who accepts favors and accepts favors and accepts favors and never offers them back. Favors in terms of money, of course, but also in terms of time and consideration. You want to, I mean, everyone should to some degree perhaps keep a ledger and perhaps

not one that is as mold over internally as Mike's is. But, you know, keep things more or less in balance so that you, you know, you can accept help and generosity from people in your life and know that you're also in a position to return it. Being generous is, you know, I wrote in my penultimate book so far, Vacation Land, that's a plug, that, you know, because I essentially won the lottery of going on television and making money that I never intended to make as a freelance writer, what I realized was that this freed me from a lot of anxiety and so much of what is so insidious about the system in which we live is the perpetual anxiety that we feel because of financial pressure, not least because we have to think of and pay

for health care. But having money that allows you to support yourself and having a little bit more than you perhaps need is such a great, such an amazing feeling because it allows you to be generous. And that's such a good feeling that everyone honestly should be able to have. People should have a little bit more than just getting by so that they can be. generous to other folks and people. It's a wonderful feeling. And to some degree, I, you know, I appreciate the feeling that you have, Mike, and the pride and honor that you take and being able to provide for your kids, that's a very good feeling, but you're denying them the reciprocal feeling of being generous with you, with money, perhaps, or in other ways, you know.

oftentimes the greatest generosity is being generous in your acceptance of other people's generosity. You see what I mean. It's a real paradox there. You may need to go up to your attic and find paradoxes for dummies. You know, because that's part of graciousness, right? To be able to accept as well as to provide. That is, I think that while you are busy, very busy, indeed, keeping your ledger balanced, you're not appreciating that everyone's got their own ledgers and some of your children would

like to give back to you and will continue to give back to you when it's even more necessary, but even now they want to give back to you. And it's not that they're spending down whatever savings they might have for your later needs. They want to give back to you now financially and in other gestures that are meaningful to them. Now, that's not Genevieve. Genevievee just wants to give all of her money to this slowrunner, dude. I don't get it. I honestly don't get it.

Insofar as that I feel, right, that having an unbalanced ledger is going to weigh on you, Mike, emotionally, a little bit more than I think it weighs on your kids. I am going to essentially advise Genevieve. Do not expect major changes in Mike's worldview in terms of paying. It gives him pleasure and it satisfies a sense of pride to be able to provide for his kids. That's how I feel, too, about our kids insofar as we were able to help them. But I also advise you, Mike, to be gracious in a lot of. appreciating that it gives them pleasure, too, to help you, right? There are books that are balanced that are not purely financial. And sometimes you need to do a little bit of a different

kind of math to keep the balance even. That said, Genevieve, I am going to advise you that I do not expect, nor should you, that not even a ruling from the esteemed fake judge John Hodgman would ease the psychic burden of feeling out of, feeling in debt that Mike feels. And I think that Mike needs to work through that on his own. And takes pleasure in sneaking money into your car. And maybe he'll even, you know, what I would perhaps order is that instead of sneaking money into your car for your birthday to balance the debt and the ledger that is in Genevieve's heart, Mike, that you let Genevieve pay for this birthday party for herself. You let her give all of the money that she can to this stranger

and that if you want to give her a gift and be generous, not that you've necessarily threatened to come in and take over the payment of the rental hall or wherever this is happening, but that instead you go and you enjoy it and you let her pay. And if you're going to sneak any money in, you're going to sneak money into Michael Flynn's pocket, literally. What I want you to do, Mike, is I want you to take $100. I know it's a lot, Mike. I want you to take a hundred dollar bill and slip it into the back pocket of Michael

Flynn of slow runners, jeans or whatever. on the night and just tell him this comes from a mysterious benefaction and guess what that's me i'm going to venmo you mike so it's all even stephen so in the in the overall uh i i have to honor mike's honor and mike's going to fight you tooth and nail to let you pay for stuff and that's just the way it's going to be overall but in the particular for your birthday i rule in your favor, Genevieve. The slow-runner concert is all on you. This is the sound of a gavel.

You pay love. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the court run. Mike, how do you feel right now? Well, I feel that I have a job to do come Genevieve's birthday. And that judgment will be honored.

Genevieve, how are you feeling? I'm feeling pretty good. I think that the judge is correct that there's only so much we can expect from changing the habits and mentality that my dad brings to the table. But I am glad that in this case, at least, he will be able to come and enjoy the show and have a role at the party without being out of pocket. Mike, can I have some now and later's in a home run pie? I'll leave the money on your dashboard. Yes, that would be fine.

Mike Genevieve, thank you for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you for having us. Thank you very much. Another Judge John Hodgman cases in the books. We've got Swift Justice in just a second. First, our thanks to Redator Something Fowl for naming this week's episode, Shut Your Payhole. We usually name those episodes over on the Maximum Fun Reddit.

That's Reddit.com slash R slash Maximum Fun. So go join up and join in the fun. If you want to see evidence from our program, join us on Instagram at Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman. I'm on Instagram, Jesse Thorne, very famous. John is on Instagram at John Hodgman. We're also on TikTok and YouTube at Judge John Hodgeman Pod. We post full episodes of every program on YouTube.

So go over there and share it with a friend who might enjoy it and also smash those like and subscribe buttons. Yeah, you know, over on YouTube, we have a chance for you to leave comments. And we always pick one comment, the YouTube comment of the week. This week comes from user Allen Home hyphen HV9QB as in boy. that's Alan Home hyphen HV9QB Allen Home hyphen HV9QB says I don't want to cause anyone any pain

but Jesse's reactions made me laugh very hard this was in reaction to our recent case about a couple playing 20 questions That was wild I like them a lot and there were many comments not just from Allen home hyphen HV9QB commenting on

the incredible facial reaction to some of the stumpers that were offered in that 20 questions game. And it's true. It's something that you can enjoy on the YouTube that you can't enjoy anywhere else. And indeed, Allenholm-HV-9 QB says, I hope we get more of this energy in the future.

And you absolutely do. If you've enjoyed listening to an episode, it might make sense to go to the YouTube just to see how it plays out in a visual context. Our thanks to Robert Vogler at 274 Podcast Hub in Mount Airy, North Carolina for engineering the North Carolina side of our conversation. Judge John Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. Social media help this week from

Natty Lopez. Our podcast is edited by A.J. McKeon. Our video editor is Daniel Spear. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Okay. You ready for Swift Justice, John? Yeah, I'm ready for Swift Justice. Yes. Okay. Joan Arkham, classic Reddit username. Oh, yeah. I know John Arcombe. Ask on the Max Fund subreddit. Is it okay to hang dish towels on the handle of the oven, or should you ball them up and squish them into the corner of the countertop on top of the spices? Well, that sounds like a trick. This doesn't sound. Yeah. Well, this is a question asked in medium faith. I think that Joan Arkham has someone in their life who balls them up. The obvious answer here is, because no los those. Yeah, no, I mean, I certainly do both.

I certainly do both. Yes, it is okay, obviously, to hang dish towels on the handle of the oven. John Arkham, I get the sense that perhaps you don't like a person in your life, bawling them up and squishing them in the corner. Maybe that's you. Maybe that's someone you share a home with or whatever. I do both. But yes, I would say the ones in the oven tend to be decorative in my house. And the ones that are sort of out on the counter and squished up are the ones that are in use. The important thing is that if you're a person who likes to have a balled up dish towel that you're using, when you're you're done using it, go put it in the laundry or something. Don't just leave it there. It's fine to have it out in use, but once it's done, go take care of it. Okay, John, I love dish towels, John. Did you know that? They're terrific. I love dish towels. I got a buddy at the flea market, who's a textile dealer

or rag dealer. Yeah. And I'll buy these gorgeous dish towels from her. Ooh, I'll use them so absorb and like old linen dish towels. Yeah. Just give her, I'll give her $5 for those all day long. Ooh, I love it. Greatest pleasure in my life. I just bought a pack of three brand new flower sack style dish towels. And I honestly, you know, I share a life with someone. So, you know, we have differences of preference. For example, the way Joan Arkham does, like someone hangs towels, someone smushes them around. If I were living alone, I would only have flour sack, white dish towels. and I would have a hundred of them. That would give me so much pleasure.

Come to my house, John. You wouldn't believe how great my dish towels are. Just a pile of the exact same dish towels to me is very pleasurable, even though I appreciate decorative dish towels too. Most of all, though, I'm really, really happy to share my life with someone, even though it means compromise. I hope that helps Joan Arkham. Meanwhile, we are inching closer to the holiday season.

We are probably already hearing about Black Friday sales as we speak. as of this recording at the end of October we haven't even had Halloween yet but Christmas is trickling into every big box store and I want some winter holiday cases do you want to change your friend group's white elephant gift exchange? You're trying to rent an Airbnb

that looks like Kate Winslet's house from Nancy Myers the holiday but your family is over that movie? This feels very specific to Jennifer Marmer here. This feels like a real Jennifer Marmer situation. Yeah. Has your professional colleague not seen the holiday and you want them to?

Any of these holiday submissions? Jennifer Marmer's favorite movie is the holiday, and we want holiday submissions. Now is the time to send us your family holiday recipes as well. Now, you know, we always have our holiday leftovers episode, usually in January, where we collect strange holiday recipes for hors durs or even main courses, whether it's tomato soup cake or eggnog mixed with fanta orange,

soda. We want your strange, you're unique, your customary, your regional holiday recipes. Anything gelatinous is something that we want to try. Send them into us now. We'll get them ready for our annual holiday leftovers party that we have usually in January. We can't wait to see what we all come up with this year. Send your holiday cases and your recipes, as always to maximum fund.org slash jj.j. Or you can email me directly at Hodgman at maximum fund.org. And, of course, we love hearing about all your disputes. Maximumfund.org slash JJHO is the place to go to submit them. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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