Judge John Hodgman - Shut Your Pious Hole

Episode Date: November 6, 2015

Libby brings the case against her husband Aaron. Aaron is a minister by occupation, and thinks he should always be upfront about his job when meeting new people. Libby says he should play it cool till he gets to know them a bit better. Who's right? Who's wrong?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, shut your pious hole. Libby brings the case against her husband Aaron. Aaron's a minister by occupation and thinks he should always be up front about his job when meeting new people. Libby says he should play it cool till he gets to know them a bit better. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. I preach there are all kinds of internet justice, your internet justice and somebody else's. But behind all of them, there's only one internet justice, and that is that there is no internet justice, no internet justice. Behind all internet justice is what I and this podcast preach. Where you come from is gone.

Where you thought you were going never was there. And where you are is no good unless you can get away from it. I'm a member and preacher to that podcast where the blind don't see and the lame don't walk. And what's dead stays that way. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? So help you God or whatever.

I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that his primary religious endorsement came from the Church of Satan? Yes. Yes. Very well, Judge Hodgman. Thank you very much. You may be seated. Libby and Aaron, for an immediate summary judgment.

First of all, it's true, by the way, Jesse. I know. That's why I said it. I just had a letter from Peter H. Gilmore, high priest of the Church of Satan, the other day. I mean, an internet letter. And you know what he told me? He said he really enjoyed my performance as the mad doctor on The Nick,

the Cinemax old-timey medicine show, The Nick, and I played a mad psychiatrist. And I got noticed, I got favorable reviews from Duncan Jones, director of Moon, and the high priest of the Church of Satan. And that made my week. That's not bad.

I heard from a number of people on Twitter about how great you were at it. Well, that's very kind of that number of people. I think they must have been rerunning them and getting ready for season two. Will John Hodgman's teeth-pulling lunatic psychiatrist Dr. Cotton return in season two of The Nick. It's the only reason people are watching that show, to find out. No, it's a great show. People are watching it because Clive Owen's brilliant and Steven Soderbergh's brilliant. It's worth watching, everybody.

That's some life-saving cultural recommendation right there for you. But let's get back to obscure culture. Libby and aaron for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors can either of you name the piece of culture that i referenced as i entered the courtroom i i i did not quote it i paraphrased it because i i inserted some words where other words were once before but if you if you know the work you might recall now aaron you are the you are the respondent in this uh fake internet lawsuit so i'm going to give you the choice to guess first or to make

libby guess first but everyone must well neither one of those is going to help i have no idea so you are you are you are saying you don't know but you have to make a guess. Okay. Vicar of Dibley. All right. I'm not going to comment at the moment. Libby. Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. All right. I'm just going to tabulate here.

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is guest number two. Guest number one was Vicar of Dibley, and that's one. Two guesses, and are either of them right? No, in fact, all guesses are wrong! Sign this form now and just put that in the record.

All guesses were wrong again. No, the quote is from the novel Wise Blood by Flannery O'Connor. And every time I said internet justice, I should have been saying, if I were quoting properly, truth. So I preach there are all kinds of truth, your truth and somebody else's, but behind all of them, there's only one truth, and that is there is no truth.

And this was the creed of hazel moats in the novel the main character the son of a traveling preacher who returns from world war ii traumatized and with a newfound belief in disbelief specifically atheism and becomes himself a street preacher in the american south espousing non-belief uh and essentially as far as i can tell based on my reading up on your uh on your faith he basically becomes a universalist unitarian there is no truth that everyone else's truth is true and and there is no truth right is that correct do i have that right aaron um there is truth but you are seeking your own truth respectfully and and and and with respect to everyone else's other spiritual journeys.

And that is correct. And then you get together every now and then and read the New York Times. More or less. Yep. So Libby, your husband is a universalist Unitarian minister and you would like to prohibit him from speaking openly about his calling because you have moved to a new place. And tell me a little bit about where you have moved and why you want to deny him his religious liberty. Sure. And it's not quite as bad as it sounds. But for your question, we moved to a small college town in Texas. We moved here from outside of Boston. So it's very, very different culturally.

And we have started running into some things here that we never had to deal with before. So how is it not as bad as it sounds? You want, he has revealed that he is a universalist Unitarian minister, and they call you Satan? Well, I have been told once that I would be going to hell. And I have to say, it's actually Unitarian Universalism. So forgive me for misspeaking. maybe we need a little clarification for both me and listeners as to what Unitarian Universalism is. I wasn't aware we could buzz market this, but Unitarian Universalism was sort of sprung up in the Boston area as a very liberal faith. We ordain women and men. I have colleagues that identify as gay or lesbian or transgender. We're pretty liberal. And we were originally a Christian denomination,

two Christian denominations. But since then, we've become more humanist, more open. There are a lot of different sources that a minister could choose to preach from. So, yes, I'm a Unitarian Universalist minister. And it basically is respectful towards all religions and belief systems, including atheism. Is that correct? That is correct. Yes. Did you move to Texas specifically in order to be a Unitarian Universalist minister or was it incidental? Yes, I had gotten a job in this area and this was where we went back in August. So what would you have me order your husband to do then, Libby, So what would you have me order your husband to do then, Libby, in order for you to avoid the conflict and being told that you're going to hell?

I would ask that we come up with maybe one or two rules about when Aaron should not reveal right away that he is a Unitarian Universalist minister and maybe another rule about kind of when in social situations he should find the appropriate time to break that news. Well, this is a fairly uncontroversial and very old church. And certainly, certainly for someone who grew up in Boston, I was quite familiar with it because that's where it is headquartered and indeed has a long history of being associated with the civil rights movement and all the way back to abolitionism. Let's establish what the problem is. You made reference to being told you went to hell. Tell me a story about a time when someone in one of your new neighbors learned that your husband's a minister and the problem that it caused. Sure, Judge. Well, what you said about it not being a controversial church is very true in New England,

but that is definitely not true here in Texas. I actually grew up in Austin, which is a very large city in the middle of Texas, very different from where we are now, and I had never heard of this church. It's not something a lot of people here know about, and they can often kind of freak out when they find out what it is. Well, tell me, specificity is the soul of my church. So please, please get up and testify. Okay. So once I went to go and get a pedicure with a friend and- Oh, they allow pedicures in this part of the world? They do.

They're very into them. It would seem that would be vain. But all right, go on. So getting my nails done and the technician, you know, is making a small talk with me. And so it came up, you know, why did you move here? Talking about, you know, we moved here for my husband's job. Well, what does he do? Well, he's a minister, which at this point in any conversation, it's always, oh, well, what

church, what religion? So I was describing his church and kind of what we believe. And she was just very aghast. And when she learned that we we actually lived together before we got married she would just this was the point where she told me I was going to hell and the worst thing was that I actually couldn't get up and leave I was stuck there until the end of the service so it was very uncomfortable in what way did she tell you you were going to hell did you just say well sounds like you're going to hell or did you say oh gosh I'm sorry you're going to hell or what she had say, well, it sounds like you're going to hell? Or did you say, oh gosh, I'm sorry, you're going to hell or what? She had this kind of like a gas look on her face. Like, you know, you can't do that as a minister.

That's, that's wrong. You know, you're, you're going to go to hell. And did she give you a good pedicure? I did feel like she kind of rushed it at the end. Okay. All right. And this has happened repeatedly in your, in this obviously much more conservative, uh, and, uh, region of the world. I have become a little more circumspect about when and how I reveal this to someone. By which you mean that you often lie about it. I, I, I varnished the truth. What have you, that you often lie about it. I varnish the truth. Have you lied about what your husband does? Not necessarily. I'd say, you know, kind of using

omission or letting people make assumptions. One thing that I can say, because it's a college town, lots of people are, you know, coming here for the university. I can just say, oh, you know, if it comes up, someone's wondering why, why I'm here. You know, we here for the university, I can just say, oh, you know, if it comes up, someone's wondering why, why I'm here. You know, we moved from my husband. He just got a job down here. And I think most times people will just assume that it's with the university and we can move on to a new topic. But there is no association with the university. No, no. So tell me about your congregation, Aaron. Sure. What would you like to know about them? Well, how how large a congregation is it?

Sure. About 75 people. OK. And what about what are their age range? More or less. We have a fair number of children, a couple of young adults, but mainly older folks who moved here ages ago for the university in town. Okay. And so they're not native to the place? I think some of them are now, would consider themselves to be native, but a lot of people move here. And do they face a lot of persecution in the neighborhood because of their belonging to your church?

That's an interesting question. I think they really view the church as a sanctuary where it's okay to be liberal and it's okay to share what they really believe because my sense is that in other parts of their life, it is not okay to do that. I see. And how do you feel about the fact that your wife doesn't want you to reveal your calling?

But at the same time, in certain situations, I feel that it's okay to come right out and say, this is what I do. This is what we believe. And as a way to sort of say, like, you know, you have one idea of what a church is or a minister is, and maybe I'm different than that. What would be a situation in which you would want to reveal your life's work, but your wife would not want you to? Sure. So a recent example of that is we went to a watch party of the Democratic debate that was being hosted by a particular candidate and that person's campaign. And when we got there. Which campaign is this? Democratic. In what race?

Hubert Humphrey. Oh, Bernie Sanders. Oh, OK. Oh, OK. Gotcha. All right. Gotcha. So Bernie Sanders had you over.

Well, yeah. So his campaign in this area had us over. And I knew that there were a lot of people at my church that were also supporters of that. We, of course, can't talk about that in church or from the pulpit. I couldn't endorse this particular candidate, but I knew that you're going to see some faces from the pews. Yeah, potentially. Do you have pews or do you just have like Freudian fainting couches or something? We have we have chairs. Go ahead. So what happened? So I introduced myself and they said, oh, you know, where are you from? And I said, just moved down here from Massachusetts.

And, you know, and then the conversation became, so what do you do for a living? And I said, I'm a minister. I'm a Unitarian Universalist minister. And about three or four of the people that we introduced ourselves to and I said that uh said oh yeah i know about that um i went to a church like that as well um so it was good to have some of that common ground um but this was a time that libby didn't think i should have uh come on that strong and told them what i did for a living why not why can't your husband say that he's a Unitarian Universalist minister at a Bernie Sanders rally? Yeah. Is he also prescribed from

saying he's a Unitarian Universalist minister at like hemp day or at the pour over coffee place? No, no, it's I thought it was fine that he brought it up. But I think that I think we don't live in a time anymore where clergy are universally looked up to and respected. And even, you know, Aaron's faith and ministry being what it is, very liberal and accepting. I think people still worry that they're being judged. So this goes the other way. You were afraid that in Bernie Sanders, like at at at conservative pedicure, which is a great name for a pedicure place, you're afraid that you're you're you're your husband and

you by associating with him are going to are going to be accused of being hell bound. But over the Bernie Sanders rally, you're afraid that all these folks are going to freak out and go, oh, my, there's some God freak in here. Yeah, it definitely cuts both ways. And I did want to introduce there was a precipitating incident about why I brought this case. Please. Is this OK? It was very scary. And it's something that really made me quite worried for Aaron's safety. So I will turn it over to him. But about a month ago, he took the shuttle into the airport. And at one point, he was the only passenger on the shuttle. And some pretty, pretty worrisome things happened. So the conversation

started up and I and the person said oh so you know what do you do and I said I'm a Unitarian Universalist minister and the the bus driver said oh that's right I remember your predecessor the the Lord impressed upon my heart to share a word with your predecessor and I'm surprised that he stayed this long in this town. And I said, well, he had a contract. He was here for two years and now I'm here. And the conversation went on. He asked about what my beliefs were. And then the conversation sort of stopped when he asked me, so have you heard the truth? And I responded, well, I think I've heard a truth. I think I've seen truth. We, of course, have a free and responsible search for it.

But I think you're probably talking about a different truth. So what truth are you talking about? And he proceeded to tell me his version of the truth. And then later asked, you know, as somebody who went to seminary and has a graduate degree in this and who has studied the New Testament, how could you turn away from the word of Jesus Christ? turn away from the word of Jesus Christ. So at that point, I was feeling pretty flustered. I didn't know the conversation would be going this way. And I finally said, you know, it's clear that we disagree on this. I woke up at three o'clock in the morning and I wasn't really bargaining for this sort of

religious conversation this early, at which time he said, that's fine. And then turned up the Christian talk radio that was playing in the in the shuttle on the way to the airport. What's the I don't understand what the problem is. Well, you know, Aaron being alone in this shuttle i that makes me very uncomfortable and it also made me really worried that um you know just this kind of random random shuttle driver happened to know the the one guy who preceded aaron at his church did you feel that there was an implicit threat of some kind i I think there could have been. Certainly. Okay. Why have you turned away from Jesus Christ? So with the Unitarian Universalist beliefs,

there are a number of different sources that we might draw from Jewish and Christian, our Jewish and Christian heritage being one of them. But I would say that the majority of the people in the church that I serve do not identify as Christian at this point in time. Okay. And what about you? I would say that I am not a Christian. I appreciate the teachings of Jesus. I think that there are other great teachings out there and sort of try to hold them all up as good examples and good sources for inspiration and morality. But it's not the sole source that I would draw from.

That's all very reasonable, though it does put you on an airport shuttle to hell there are six sources uh according to wikipedia of sort of spiritual enlightenment and guidance direct experience of the transcending mystery and wonder of life words and deeds of prophetic men and women wisdom from the world's religions uh the jewish and christian uh specific heritage of the unitarian and universalist movement humanist teachings and spiritual teachings of Earth centered traditions, which I think is like yoga and stuff. Right. More pagan and Wiccan and some Native American inspired stuff. And you have you have any people who belong to the Church of Satan?

Because they're they're they're a great group of people, I have to say. None. None that have introduced themselves to me as such and by the church of satan i mean specifically the anton levay founded now run uh now headed by uh magus peter h gilmore which is an atheistic organization that is essentially a critique of all religion they're really decent men and women though i have to say in my experience with them they're a lot of fun uh it's basically einrand objectiv objectivism with goat masks and rituals. But in any case.

So, you know, this is a situation where, you know, it's uncomfortable for sure. What I'm trying to determine is whether there is truly a threat to your safety in such an uncomfortable situation. It's hard to tell. I can understand why you felt weird about it. But also whether this is specifically a result of your being a Unitarian Universalist versus simply being a non-believer of this particular guy's kind of truth. You could have been anything. You could have been, you know, if you were a rabbi, do you think he would have given

you the same treatment? I couldn't predict what that would be. I could imagine that it might have been a similar conversation, but I couldn't predict that. Aaron, I have a question for you. I mean, you must hang out in, you know, Unitarian Universalist ministers dot Reddit dot com or like get the Unitarian Universalist ministers newsletter that has a letters column or something like that. a letters column or something like that. What is the advice you've gotten from other people who have been in a situation similar to yours, which is to say they are ministers in a place that, unlike Boston, which has a deep tradition of Unitarian Universalism, but places where Unitarian Universalism is an exception and could be by some people seen as a threat or a rejection of their faith?

Sure. So, yeah, there are definitely places where we discuss that. And the advice is very wide. There's a lot of different advice. Some advice says, some advice that I've heard from colleagues is just, you know, tell something of what you do, but don't reveal that you're a minister because you're not in a professional relationship with them. So you don't know what sort of concerns they might start telling you or what sort of stuff they might project onto you.

So some of the sort of more general descriptions of being a minister might be I'm a manager at a nonprofit, I'm a writer, I'm an inspirational speaker, I work at a small community building organization. We should explain that you are technically an inspirational speaker in addition to having been a Unitarian Universalist minister. You're also Rudy from the movie Rudy. I wish. Yeah. So there's that's one school of thought. You're a guy. You just say, oh, me, I'm just a guy who sits in a room full of chairs. And sometimes people sit down in them. Exactly.

Another school of thought is to outright sort of embellish and lie as much as possible, saying you're an accountant at a meatpacking firm. meatpacking firm. The other school of thought is to be forthright with what you do, saying that you're a Unitarian Universalist minister, and whatever the person that you're talking to wants to say about that is a-okay, and that that's a great chance to have some pastoral connection. I have a question. I have a specific question for you about that part. So do you, as a Unitarian Universalist minister, see that you have any responsibility within your job description, either to be evangelical or to be of pastoral service to people who may not share your Unitarian Universalism. Like we had a family friend, I had a family friend who was a Catholic priest as a kid. I think he would identify himself to others as a Catholic priest pretty much no matter what, not because he wanted to convince other people of Catholicism necessarily, but simply because,

you know, it was part of explaining his general service, which he, you know, provided to the poor no matter what their religion was. Right. I think there's no outright expectation that you're going to be evangelical. I think the average Unitarian Universalist invites somebody else to church every 26 years. church every 26 years. So there's sort of, there isn't that evangelical outreach necessarily. I would like to get back to the dispute. So in the situation that you described, did you feel that there was an implicit threat in what the bus driver was saying to you? I did not feel implicitly threatened, but being the only passenger in the vehicle, I wasn't exactly sure what might happen. But that was more my my concern was I'm the only person in the vehicle.

What could happen in this? What were you afraid was going to happen other than this uncomfortable religious conversation i don't know i think i was probably pre-disasterizing um and getting getting worried about it is that part of your faith but is that some tenant the pre-disasterizing i think that language specifically is directly associated with the fainting couches they all sit on. Yes, exactly. Okay. All right. Was that sufficiently uncomfortable an encounter that you now feel that you should withhold information in the future? So later on, I took another shuttle on that same day. I was flying for work.

This is beginning to sound like a biblical story. And then on the second shuttle, he met a different man. So, yes, on the second shuttle, I met a different driver. And he asked what I did. And I said, I work with a small community building nonprofit. You lied. Which is true. We build community. We are small. We community building nonprofit. You lied. Which is true. We build community.

We are small. We are a nonprofit. Yeah. How big a part of Unitarian Universalism is dissembling and evasion? It is not a part of it. All right. Did you feel guilty in any way for having done that? No, I didn't.

Because actually, when I was in the airport getting to the other place that I was flying to, I had asked some of my colleagues, how would you have responded in this situation? And they said, I would have just told them that I work at a small nonprofit. So I said, well, I'll try it out this one time and see what that's like. So I did. So your Unitarian Universalist colleagues suggested that you do this? Some of them suggested I do that. Others said- How did you feel about it? I felt a little disappointed in myself that I had said that. But it also made the conversation go a lot easier and

the ride was much more comfortable. So where is the dispute here? Do you want to say your truth out loud or do you not care? I do care. I just would prefer that I am the one who is able to make the decision as to when I share it, what I do for a living or when I don't. And Libby's viewpoint is that I should be prohibited, not to put words in her mouth, but be prohibited from sharing that I'm a minister at all. At all? Is that true, Libby? that I'm a minister at all. At all? Is that true, Libby? I think that this is maybe too strong. I want you to use your judgment,

but I want you to use good judgment. So your judgment, when you say your judgment, you mean my judgment. Well, I think it's my- You gotta give it, you know what? You have to give me some specific circumstances in which he would be prohibited or else I'm gonna throw this thing out of court.

OK, OK. I would say, you know, when you are alone on a car ride with a stranger, that's probably a good time to not not reveal this unless, you know, they have started talking to you, confessing troubles on their soul or something like that. But I don't think that's going to happen. So when I'm hitchhiking? Yeah. Okay. So, so anytime he is alone. Yeah. I think it's my prerogative as a wife to get to worry about my husband. And I realized this may sound somewhat trivial, but I think that the majority culture here is sometimes very unreasonable. And it has been a really big adjustment for me to get used to having to, I don't know if dissemble is the right word, but be more circumspect about who we let into kind of the truth about who Erin is. Libby, can I ask you a really sincere question? who we let into kind of the truth about who Aaron is. Libby, can I ask you a really sincere question? Have you had situations where you felt like in revealing this information about yourself,

not only did you not get back the reaction that you wanted, but you got back a reaction from someone who was hostile to you. That is to say someone who didn't – you know, the difference I'm asking about is the difference between someone who is making you uncomfortable by saying that in their view you're going to hell and someone who's making you uncomfortable by suggesting that they might, you know, attack you in some way or something other than, you know, a genuine concern based on an actual religious conviction that they might, you know, they want to help you. Wait, so the question is, do I think someone's going to hurt me or Aaron? Do you feel like there's something above and beyond people who want to help you and the way that they want to help you is inconvenient and slightly unpleasant? I see what you mean that, you know, people want to kind of bring us around to their way of thinking that they think it's helpful. of bring us around to their way of thinking that they think it's helpful. But it's, you know, I'd say those interactions are not helpful. And they don't come from a place of wanting to understand who we are, or even just be willing to kind of let us be. I'd say, you know, actually, the really hurtful ones are not when, you know, a manicurist is telling them to go to hell. But when, you know, we try to reach out and make new friends and, you know, have dinner with our neighbors and, you know,

they're very pleasant, but after they, they learn what Aaron does, we don't hear from them again. And I'm, I'm not saying that I would want to, you know, be friends with people who, you know, don't appreciate who my husband is and what he does. But I think maybe if we'd been able to kind of start with a different foot and find some common ground first, maybe we could have kept talking to them. Let me ask you, how old are you both? We're in our mid-20s. Yeah, 28.

Okay. How long have you been married? We were married in 2013, so a little over two years. Yeah. And Aaron, where are you from in the world? I grew up in a small town outside of Boston called Littleton. Littleton, Massachusetts. You know, I am a Massachusettsian myself. Exactly. And what drove your calling to become not merely a member of this church, but a minister? I saw what the minister was doing in leading sermons, and I said I wanted to do that. Later on, I led an Easter sunrise service. I led an Easter sunrise service. And at the end of that service, when I was a senior in college, decided that anything that wasn't in preparation to be a minister would be wasted time.

So I decided to enroll in seminary that next fall. And every time I learn more about what it means to be a minister, I continue to say, yes, I want to do this for my life's work. Okay, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I'm going to go into my chambers, which I occasionally rent out as a Unitarian Universalist church, because I've got some sweet chairs. And I'll give it some thought and I'll be back in a moment with my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Aaron, how long have you been in Texas now? We moved here in August.

Do you expect that you'll be here beyond the length of your contract? I am not sure. Who knows? It all depends on where the next church that would like to have me as a minister is. What do you think, Libby? I love kind of being somewhat closer to my parents. Texas is still a big state, but maybe we could help make some great change here and make it a better place to live.

But I really don't know. I do love the congregation that Aaron is serving. They've been so welcoming and so wonderful. And so I would want to stay here and be closer to them. Aaron, how do you feel about your chances in this case? I think they're pretty okay. A lot of certainty there, clearly. I would be happy if the judge ruled in my favor. How about you, Libby? How do you feel? I'm not feeling very good. I don't think the judge really saw my side. Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all of this

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our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman, spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. You know, my reference to reading the New York Times at the beginning of this podcast was a reference to a joke that my dear family friend, Christine Conner's father, Walt Conner, would make all the time about Unitarian Universalists when we're growing up in Brookline.

And he, of course, is staunch Roman Catholic and is today. And he would say with some with some wry fondness, but also acid that the Unitarian universalist version of going to church is to read the new york times on a sunday morning and it's the case that in in the boston area it's hardly a unusual religion in the least and indeed the criticism that you might get from in Boston would be either you don't really believe in anything because you have, as the church itself, the religion has no specific creed or theological rigor. That would be from the religious people in Boston, but more likely from the many, many, many liberal atheists who live there, you're just an embarrassment because you are pretending to believe in church when really you shouldn't. And that would be the two criticisms

that the Unitarian Universalist Church and its clergy might receive, but probably wouldn't receive anything because in Boston, no, not really. People don't care. People don't care in the same way they care in other parts of the world, particularly the way people care about Christianity. And I'm talking about strains of Protestant Christianity in the American South and into Texas, which is indeed a region unto itself. There they clearly care. And that is, it is a different world and it is a different culture. And what you are experiencing is the experience of being, for the first time in your lives, a religious minority. And what you are experiencing feels new and uncomfortable to you but i not even

knowing the name of the town that you're in i would bet you a bunch of american dollars that uh that some that that you are not the first person um to have been targeted by this one theocratic airport shuttle driver for not believing the right truth. That is a world in which, you know, that is a world in which people take it seriously and it clearly is open season to talk about in any circumstance because you are a non-evangelical and by evangelical i mean small evangelical the the unitarian universalist church does not believe in proselytizing existing among many people of deep deep deep faith um who uh who believe that they have to tell everyone they can uh about their version of the truth which can be the only version um and so it's you're primed for conflict you absolutely are but conflict of a kind that i that i worry

you are overstating you know obviously your personal safety must be a primary concern especially in a state which you point out rightly libbyby, is more loosening egregiously and to a point of insanity, reasonable restrictions on concealed carry gun laws. I mean, it's ridiculous that you should be able to bring a gun to school or to church for that matter, but it's happening all over the country and it's a shame, I think. But beyond that, what you're experiencing is something that all kinds of people who have been religious minorities within, you know, over the centuries have experienced different kinds of, and if you were not there specifically on a semi-literal mission, I would say you should go home, go home to Boston because it's not going to, it's not going to change. Right. But you are there on a mission and I've, you know, I am a, I am the definition of an agnostic. I really don't know. I don't know. I don't have a strong sense that

there is something beyond this world on a gut level. I'm pretty cynical about it, but I also, enough of a scientist to realize that we have, uh, there are always things outside of our perception and I, and I'm not, I'm not going to rule anything out and I'll probably figure it out when I die. So there's a built-in fail safe for me one way or the other. I'll probably figure it out when I die. So there's a built-in fail-safe for me. One way or the other, I'll know. But I specifically didn't mean to ask you about your faith. That is to say, whether or not you believe in God or a transcendent spirit or something beyond our physical and emotional perception. That doesn't matter to me.

Like you, I could be a member of the Unitarian Universalist Church because it doesn't matter to me. Like you, I could be a member of the Unitarian Universalist Church because it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what you believe. It doesn't matter how you believe it in your church. It doesn't matter the way you believe it. It is defined upon openness and tolerance. But in asking you, why did you become a minister?

Why did you take the extra step? And you were able to explain it in 30 very moving seconds. And I thank you for your sincerity and your brevity. I knew that you are truly on a mission. And it is a mission which is to share with those who are interested the solitude and solace and contemplativeness that one can gain through a congregation of tolerant people. And that's a good mission to be on in life, you know?

And I think it's better than harassing people who have the misfortune of becoming a captive audience in your airport shuttle, but it's going to happen. That dude is just going to harass people. And there's no way that you can call it. Correlation is not, does not mean causality in the parable of the second shuttle you lied and you were not harassed that could be because you lied or it could be because that guy is polite whereas the other guy

wasn't uh the the woman who gave you your pedicure, who told you you were going to hell, that is an unacceptable way to treat other human beings in any belief system. And it was only, I think, perhaps because, and I can only guess it was because, she was shocked and feared for you. Not so much that she wanted to damn you to hell herself, but because she couldn't conceive of a world in which a minister's wife cohabitated before marriage.

By the way, I don't believe in cohabitation before marriage. I've said it over and over again. You're getting the worst parts of a financial partnership without the benefits and legal protection of marriage. But you do what you want. I'm Unitarian Universalist that way. You do what you want. I'm Unitarian Universalist that way. But the fact that she might have been afeard for you is because she couldn't conceive of the world

in which you exist is all the more reason why your mission is valuable while you were there. I am not suggesting that you proselytize people and try to bring them over to the secular humanism of Brookline, Massachusetts. But certainly there is a congregation there that feels the way you feel. They feel in the minority.

They feel, you know, that they have beliefs, whether they be religious or political, that they cannot express for fear of censure. And that is true. That is true in parts of Texas. I've been there. Lots of parts of the world. It's not all Austin. And, you know, even college towns aren't all Austin.

And they need you. And they need you. minister, uh, who, and particularly a minister within a church that has one credo, which is of tolerance, you know, they need you to be honest. And it, it hurts me. Look, I'm not a Unitarian Universalist minister. I don't know what you guys get up to in your professional meetings, but it hurts me that your colleagues are saying, yeah, yeah, just lie, just lie, just lie. You chose this life to be a minister in a church, even though it is the most wackadoo, easygoing, everything goes kinds of church there is. It's still your job. And if someone asks you in good faith, what do you do? You don't have to go into all of the details, but you have to tell the truth in life. Don't you think that that is part of almost all world

religions? Tell the truth, tell the truth, tell the truth. You don't have to bear witness in depth. You don't have to be the airport shuttle guy, but you can tell your own truth, which I think is a pretty good one you can tell your own truth, which I think is a pretty good one. And your own truth should be good enough, which is you're a minister. And if they say, what denomination? You say Unitarian Universalist. Stop. See what happens next. And if they want to engage in a theological conversation with you, tell the next truth that you have on your plate. Tell all your truths until you don't have any truths left to tell and let them worry about their reaction to it. And the reason that

you should do this isn't just to maintain integrity to yourself, but also because you might meet someone in the world, even though you're not meaning to, who has been waiting to hear that truth. And maybe on the day they hear it, they're going to say, you're going to hell. But maybe, maybe they're gay or maybe they're trying to live a new life with different morals that don't conform to their family morals. And maybe they're in a position that you're not in. They don't have a two-year contract. They live there. And maybe they want to hear that truth.

And maybe that truth will get into them and that'll help them lead a more happy and spiritual life. Forget spiritual, just happy life thereafter, you know? And so I, I, not only I'm afraid Libby, I mean, I appreciate your concerns and your worries.

But if you tell the truth about your life to some people who have you over for dinner and they don't have you over for dinner anymore, forget them. Who needs them? And if you are told to go to hell in a place that where they paint your nails go to another place you know but be but you but you you married this man of faith and you you made your choice too and the two of you are down there in a world it's not very often i don't want to make a presumption about your ethnic or racial background but i'll'll say generally speaking, it's not very often that white middle class people are a religious minority. But if you're a Unitarian Universalist in the middle of profoundly conservative Texas, guess what you are? Talk to people of other faiths in that. Talk to Muslim people who live there. Do

you know what I mean? And learn from their experiences. But I think that as a basic, overarching credo of all world religions and quasi-religions and non-religions, tell the truth. Because good things come from the truth, and bad things come from the non-truth. This is the sound of a gavel. And bad things come from the non-truth. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Aaron, how do you feel? I feel good. I think the judge's admonition to always tell the truth is a good one. Message heard. I did feel a little bad saying that. And my colleagues, some of the other ones did say, tell the truth. So message heard. I agree with what the judge said. Aaron, I mean, it seems like there's a way to be truthful and sincere that neither invites conflict nor evangelizes if you prefer not to evangelize, isn't there? Yes. Yep. Libby, how do you feel? Do you feel worried for your husband?

I do, but I mean, the judge was right. That is part of what I signed up for. I think maybe the judge should consider going to seminary himself. That was a pretty good sermon that he gave there. Well, guys, we really appreciate you taking the time to be on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Libby, Aaron, hopefully we'll hear good things about how this goes for you. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but

to embrace, because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there?

Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I. It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O.

Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. That's it for this week's Judge John Hodgman podcast. The show is produced by Julia Smith and edited by Mark McConville. Hey, listen, me, Bailiff Jesse Thorne, am on the road in November on a bullseye tour. My national public radio program, Bullseye, will be first in Los Angeles and then in the

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