Judge John Hodgman - Side Effects May Include Justice

Episode Date: August 14, 2019

Yael brings the case against her boyfriend, Jeff. Is it ok to keep expired medication? Jeff says it’s fine, but Yael disagrees! Who's right? Who's wrong? With Summertime Funtime Guest Bailiff Monte Belmonte and Expert Witness Dr. Sydnee McElroy! Thank you to Brian Colavito for naming this week's case! To suggest a title for a future episode, follow Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm summertime fun time guest bailiff Monty Belmonte from 93.9 The River, WRSI in Northampton, Massachusetts. This week, side effects may include justice. Yael brings the case against her boyfriend, Jeff. Yael is lip-a-torn about what to do with expired medication and is un-enchantix with the idea of keeping it. Jeff says Yael needs to dime-a-tap the brakes on her worry and to see the man off in his right. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can sort through the cotton balls and pull off this childproof cap.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. Upon entering my body, the podcast would start a warm itch that would surge along until the brain consumed it in a gentle explosion. It began in the back of the neck and rose rapidly until I felt such pleasure that the whole world sympathized and took on a soft, lofty appeal. Everything was grand then. Your worst enemy, he wasn't so bad. The ants in the grass, they were just, you know, lofty appeal. Everything was grand then. Your worst enemy? He wasn't so bad. The ants in the grass?

They were just, you know, doing their thing. Everything took on the rosy hue of unlimited success. You could do no wrong, and as long as the podcast lasted, life was beautiful. Summertime fun time guest bailiff Monty Belmonte, swear the litigants in. Yael and Jeff, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Or headache, nausea, vomiting, dizziness, red and painful palms and feet, shooting pain, numbness, tingling, restless legs, loss of smell, brain freeze, dysentery, cardiac arrhythmia, sack thigh, increased desire to gamble, benign but dangerous liver tumors, varicose veins, hemorrhoids, the outbreak of psoriasis, Christ, you don't know the meaning of heartache, buddy. Or death?

I do. I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that Hodgman spells relief R-O-L-A-I-D-S? I do. I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Monty Belmonte from WRSI The River,

our constant summertime fun time guest bailiff, always layers so many puns into his opening. And he got me so distracted because his mention of what were the drugs that he mentioned? Chantix, Lipitorne, Dimetap, Acetaminophen. It reminded me of my favorite internet meme, which is, is it a prescription drug or is it the name of an elf in lord of the rings because when you think of like culebra that's a name of an elf right i mean yeah sildenafil which is a generic elf the name brand elf is viagra sorry i kind of totally lost track there because i had completely forgotten about that joke which which is so clever. The only time that I like wordplay at all was when I look it up, Monty. Meanwhile, Yael and Jeff, please be seated for an immediate summary judgment. And one of yours writes hands. Can you name the

piece of culture that I paraphrased as I entered the courtroom? Yael, let's start with you. Sure. Totally off the top of my head. I'm pretty sure it's from the 2006 movie, Expiration Date. Oh, Expiration Date, the 2006 movie. I will add that to the guess. Sorry, I'm still looking at elf names. I'm closing my computer I'm so sorry Cialis right this is the name of an elf or is it key Alice depends

all right I'm here with Joel Mann at WERU in Orland Maine which is my summertime fun time hideout hi Joel hello judge

look this is a community supported radio station right we're having a pledge drive yeah okay yeah exactly that's what you have to say the minute I say a radio station you have to say pledge drive a pledge drive. Okay. Yeah, exactly. That's what you have to say. The minute I say a radio station, you have to say pledge drive. WERU.org, you can go there and support them. What I'm asking is, by community supported radio

station, it's like freeform hippie music, right? You've got to have some pretty good drugs around here. Do you have anything to help me focus? They were selling clones in Blue Hill last week. I don't know what you're talking about, and I don't know what you're on. Let's move on. Jeff, what's your guess? Definitely a Mountain Goat song. Definitely a Mountain Goat song. Yeah. You could also say, is it a long quotation from Lord of the Rings,

or is it a Mountain Goat song? Also an easy game to play. Monty, do you have a guess as to what I was quoting when I entered the courtroom? It is from those Wilford Brimley commercials where he refers to diabetes as diabetes over and over again, which is one of my favorite memes. We do have one more person to ask. Mystery guest. Do you have a guess as to what the piece of culture I referenced was? Yeah, that's definitely something I said, right?

That sounds like me. If only that were true. No, all guesses are wrong. That's actually from the 1989 movie Drugstore Cowboy, starring Matt Dillon, in a role that was written for Tom Waits. Did you know that, Monty? Did you ever see that movie? Wow. No.

I've seen the movie. I didn't know it was written for Tom Waits. That's cool. Yeah. They cast Matt Dillon instead because the studio said to the director gus van zandt uh we would like people to see this movie so i don't know if you guys are tom waits fans but there's a little story in my upcoming book medallion status a true story from when i worked as a 19 year old in a cheese shop in london and i was playing tom waits on the cassette deck there. And a beautiful woman comes

in and she buys some cheese and I'm ringing her up and she goes, what is this music? And I said, it's Swordfish Trombones by Tom Waits, of course. You know, I was so excited that she appreciated it. She said, yeah, I wanted to know. So I never made a mistake and bought it. She walked out. Did you catch my Tom Waits reference in the list? No. The heartbreak of psoriasis cries you don't need the meaning of heartache, buddy. That's from Step Right Up. Oh, right. Okay.

If you have Tom Waits on the brain for more than four hours a day, consult your doctor. Meanwhile, let's get back into this case here. And I mentioned a mystery guest before. I'm very happy for reasons that should become very obvious very quickly to welcome as an expert witness to the podcast, Dr. Sydney McElroy. Hello. Hi, thank you for having me. For those of you who don't know, and shame on you if you don't, Sydney is a doctor. She is one of the hosts of Maximum Fund's Sawbones, which she co-hosts with her life partner, Justin McElroy, and I dare say, legal husband. Do I have that correct? Yes, that is accurate. Right. She is also the co-author of the Sawbones book, subtitled The Horrifying Hilarious Road to Modern Medicine. And we're so glad to have you here

because this case involves a certain amount of medical expertise. I'm not a doctor, and I do not play one on a podcast, and I do not want to tell Jeff to take expired medications if they're going to kill him. I want you to have that responsibility. So, Yael, you bring the case before this court. What is the justice you seek? Tell us what's happening in your home. we both minimized both our separate houses and we got rid of a lot of things. And then when we moved in, we combined everything, including our medication. So we have a medication drawer. But when I go to take some sort of pill or cream, I often check the expiration date. And I have noticed more and more that these medications have expired not one year ago, one and a half year ago, but up to 14 years ago. And I am not willing to take those medications. Jeff's got old drugs. You didn't know that you're shacking up with an old drugman.

I had a feeling, but no. When you said that you combined medications, I really hoped that you meant you opened all your pill bottles and poured them all into a bowl. And now you just take them randomly. Yeah, that makes life more exciting. You just close your eyes and pick one. That's what all couples who live together should do. Okay, Jeff, how do you respond to this? It's an accusation, but I presume that it's true. It is true. There are a lot of medications which do not necessarily go bad, at least not very quickly at all. It takes many years. And I just feel it's very wasteful to get rid of things like ibuprofen, Tylenol.

These would just be things that are thrown in the trash and all the plastic packaging and all the carbon spent to get that thing to us would then be for naught. And then there's also, you know, it costs money to buy the drugs to replace them. Right. What do you do for a living? I am a software engineer. Oh, well, then you can definitely afford new drugs. Well, I work for a nonprofit, a certain national television service. You can go ahead and say what it is.

You think if I didn't stop you at Tylenol that I was going to be mad? I know you work for PBS. That's true. I can't believe, Jeff, that you would buzz market Big Pharma and throw PBS under the bus. I guess I'm betraying the mission a little bit. Not only that, but it says here you work for PBS Kids. Yes. Yeah, so you probably don't have enough money to buy new Tylenols.

No wonder you're trying to get that secret buzz marketing money from Big Pharma on my podcast. What's the oldest thing you have? I think she got it correct with 14 years expired. What is it? What is the oldest thing you have? I think she got it correct with 14 years expired. What is it? What is the medication? I think that it's the ibuprofen. There's also a Benadryl cream, I believe, that dates back to 2005. Yeah, you sent in some photos of over-the-counter medication,

which are going to make a very interesting contribution to the Judge John Hodgman Instagram page if you don't understand the context. But yes, indeed, we're going to be posting all of these disturbing pictures of lone bottles of over-the-counter medication on the Judge John Hodgman Instagram page, as well as on the Judge John Hodgman page at MaximumFun.org. Dr. McElroy, are you with me here for this consult? Yes, I am here. Do you have access to these photos, or should I telex them to your office?

We do usually prefer faxes still in doctor's offices inexplicably, but no, I had a computer this time and I looked at them. Oh, that's so great. I just faxed a thing to a pharmacy here in Maine this morning. It was very exciting to use fax technology. Joel Mann, do they have a fax machine here at WERU? No. That and their tracks are out. Okay.

What about you, Monty Belmonte, WRSI, the river? You got a fax machine? We certainly do. Good. What's the number? It is. 413. 1413-585-0927.

I'm looking at the documents that I have posted here. I certainly hope that's it and that everybody doesn't start calling like our office manager and trying to send paper to them through the phone. That number again is, press the 15 second rewind on your podcast app. You can get it that way. And

we'll alternate between pictures of pills and pictures of faxes that you sent Monty on the Judge John Odren page when this comes out. But meanwhile, let's focus on pictures of pills right now. We have here some ibuprofen, aspirin. This looks like a bottle of Motrin and then a bottle of something else. Can you identify this, Dr. McElroy, in the bottom right-hand corner with the blue top?

This is to show expiration dates, not brand names. Some sort of allergy. Is that loratadine or claritin would be the brand? That could be accurate. I'm not sure. We did not bring the bottles in front of us. Jeff, you don't even know your old drugs? I know that I don't want to waste them. Whatever this mystery allergy drug is, it expired September of 2015. The Motrin expired

September of 2016. The aspirin expired November of 2007. And then we get to this Benadryl cream, which expired October of 2005. Do you like antique drugs, Jeff? Is this a collection? I wouldn't say I like the drugs themselves, no. I like the savings of the environment as well as, you know, the wallet that keeping them brings. Dr. McElroy, when we're talking about over-the-counter drugs such as these, what is the effectiveness of a Benadryl cream that has a expiration date printed on it of 14 years ago? Well, that's a nuanced question because one of my issues, and most doctors would say with Benadryl cream in general, is it's not actually very effective

even when you buy it brand new. I hate to bust that myth. Whoa. Yeah. And creams and liquids are actually more likely to lose potency over time than pills or capsules. So I can't give you a percentage. You'd have to test it, that specific tube to know. But I would wager to say it probably has lost some of whatever potency it had initially at this point. But you already said Benadryl cream is basically poop, right? We can quote you on that. I don't recommend it to patients because it can cause itching and it's supposed to be used for itching. Benadryl is like a steroid? An antihistamine. So Benadryl is an antihistamine cream. Do you find that the creams are less effective than, say, an oral suspension? Yes, yes. Benadryl as a pill or a capsule or an oral suspension is effective, but in a cream, I usually don't recommend it anyway, but certainly not one that's this old.

Is there any anti-itch cream for the human body that you would recommend asking for a friend? Steroid creams are usually better options. Like a cortisone cream? Yes, yes. Some sort of steroid cream. Or if you need something stronger, then your doctor can prescribe that. Let's say this friend found a tube of cortisone cream and put it on an itchy area and it really stung badly.

Instead of helping, it hurt. And then this friend noticed that this tube of cortisone cream that he had discovered in this house in Maine expired five years ago. Is that something that you've ever encountered before, and is this friend going to survive, or does this friend now have a terrible disease because of a bad old cortisone? I think this friend will be just fine, but I would recommend disposing of this cortisone cream. It perhaps is not going to help you anymore. Great. See, Joel, I told you you'd be fine. I love that you're getting angry at certain brand name creams. Dr. McElroy, what is the over-the-counter

medication that you think is the best at doing what it's supposed to do? And what is the over-the-counter medication that you think is the worst at doing what it's supposed to do? If not Benadryl cream. If it is Benadryl cream, then we've got it. Okay. I think that the best over-the-counter medications in terms of how effective they are are probably everyday things we use for pain, ibuprofen or acetaminophen. I personally think ibuprofen is a little better if you can take it, which some patients can't, for pain and inflammation. Yeah, some patients cannot take non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs because they have Semper's triad, okay? Can't take aspirin. I can't take ibuprofen.

I don't know what it's like. It must be fun. Jeff, when you take ibuprofen, is it fun? It is a blast. Man, everyone's having fun on ibuprofen but me. So ibuprofen you think is great. Everyone loves it. Some people in the world will be forever denied its beauty, but that's fine.

What else? What else do you like over the counter? I think there are a lot of the antihistamines that do work over the counter. If that is indeed loratadine, which most people know by brand name is Claritin, those antihistamines can work well for all kinds of allergies. So I think those are pretty effective. I take loratadine occasionally. But I would say that the things I can't stand are the general cold medications that have like four or five different ingredients that are all supposed to do different things.

A lot of the time they are they are just they might have some acetaminophen in there which could help with you know if you have a headache or something as part of your constellation of symptoms. But the other things in there are going to usually raise your heart rate and raise your blood pressure and make you feel fuzzy and lightheaded and not really do much of anything at all. A lot of studies have shown them to be not really effective in any way. And so I generally tell people not to waste their money or time with those. All right, Jeff, you got any expired Dayquil in there that you can throw out? Because it sounds like that's garbage already. Garbage

when new. I think I have some unexpired Dayquil in there. Throw it away. You heard the doctor. All right. Doctor's orders. Here's what we're going to do. Yael, do you have a pen and paper? I do. As we come across things that Jeff should throw away, you put them on the list, okay? So he should throw out his unexpired cold medication and throw out that Benadryl cream. Right, Dr. McElroy? Yes, I would agree with that. Got it. And what about this expired bacitracin and this expired polysporin? and this expired polysporin. One is from Odehein, one is from 2011. Toss? I mean, those are ointments that can be effective when they're potent, but they probably have lost some potency over time. So they might not work as well for, you know, minor infections, which could then become a little more serious. So I don't know. I mean, that's the hard thing. You're risking that

they're not going to be effective. So I would not use them. If they were in my house, I'd get rid of them. Get some fresh Bassetrace and some fresh Polysporin. Yeah. Okay. Let's take a quick recess. We'll be back in just a moment on Judge John Hodgman. As you know, Judge John Hodgman is supported by all of our wonderful Max Fund members. We adore you all and we thank you for your support, including one very special MaxFun member whom I'm very excited to introduce right now. It's Bailiff Jesse Thorne. Reg Bailiff Jesse Thorne.

Yeah, standard bailiff. Analog bailiff. Default bailiff. Prepare your disappointment. You're going to need it. Jesse's here. No, come on, Jesse. But here's the thing. What do we use to make this podcast?

Internet. Yeah, internet and computers. Yeah. Luckily, not only are we supported by all of those wonderful members, we're also supported by the people at Dashlane. Dashlane is the only tool that you need to stay safe online. Are you worried about losing access to accounts or having weaker reused passwords? Of course you are. I worry about it all the time.

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I've been trying to train my dogs to run up to my computer with a giant magnet on their back so no one knows what I do on the computer. Jesse Thorne, I appreciate your life hack yeah but i think that dash lane might work better at keeping you safe online from every direction yeah the magnet was expensive and my dogs are stupid look you're like how much does it cost well you can use it for free that's for sure dash lane has a basic free version yeah but dash lane premium all of the above features that I just mentioned, and it is cheaper than most VPNs or standalone security services.

The value is not just in the features, but in the peace of mind. And also, you don't have to invest in magnets for dogs. Yeah, you don't have to tie them to your dogs. It could cause back problems. Go to www.dashlane.com slash Hodgman to get a free 30-day trial of Dashlane Premium. You can see Dashlane in action and try out the features for yourself. If you like it, use code Hodgman at checkout for a 10% discount. That's Hodgman.

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Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with made in pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs, they're made in, made in. The Rohan duck, made in, made in. Riders of Rohan, duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop? You got it. Made in, made in. Made in has been supplying top chefs and restaurants with high-end cookware for years. They make the stuff that chefs need. Their carbon steel cookware is the best of cast iron, the best of stainless clad.

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Did you feel like you didn't know the man that you decided to live with? It's interesting because on one hand, Jeff has what I know of him is he tries to be a minimalist. He's really all about getting rid of things and well, you know, recycling and donating, etc. But to not have too many things, which I very much respect. At the same time, he's also against waste. You know, I would think the minimalist in him would want to get rid of these things. But apparently he, you know, is focused more on the waste. You identify something interesting because there is a competing impulse. Right. When you talk about being a minimalist and getting rid of things, I presume you are, of course, referring to my John Hodgman's incredibly successful Netflix show, John Hodgman's All

the Time Sorcery of Throwing Stuff Out. It's my show about discovering which items in your house electrify you with pleasure, and then showing gratitude to them and then getting rid of them if they no longer serve a purpose in your life. And I came up with this idea all by myself, and I am the sole inventor of this concept. And it does seem to me that some of these janky, mushed up old tubes of basset raisin and whatnot can definitely go down the garbage chute. Don't you think, Jeff? That's debatable. I mean, are they sparking joy for you? When you open up that drug drawer and you see that smushed up polysporin with the 2011 font on it, are you like, hmm, glad that's there? Well, I think there's a difference in they have lost some potency and these are useless. We should throw them out.

It's interesting to me that you haven't answered the question. When you look at these photos, Jeff, do you think to yourself, I'm really glad I have these things? No, but that's not necessarily what minimalism is to me. You know, whether or not it sparks joy is not always the determining factor. Are you trying to tell me you have a competing Netflix series to mine? I wish. What's your theory of minimalism that includes this tube of polysporin? Just whenever I get a cut, I'd like to be able to use something on it without having to go buy a new thing to use on it. Do you live in an urban area or a suburban area or a rural area? Urban. We're in D.C. You're in D.C.?

Yeah. But you sent a nice photo of the two of you hanging out in Brookline Village.C. You're in D.C.? Yeah. But you sent a nice photo of the two of you hanging out in Brookline Village. Indeed. That was pure pandering to this court because Brookline is my hometown. What? Is it? I know. Yeah, what a surprise. I liked seeing you there in Brookline Village at the Brookline Village T-stop on the Green Line, the D-spur going to Riverside. Did you have a nice time in Brookline? Why were you there? Stopping up on ointments? Exactly. That's what it's known for, Brookline, the ointments.

Yeah. Brookline Village is also known as Ointment Town. Ointment Town. We were there visiting friends after a lovely weekend in Rhode Island. And that was the day that we heard that we're coming on the podcast. So we were in Brookline when we got the email. So I think it's fate. Fantastic. You know, Brookline is known as the place to go after Rhode Island. So you did the right thing. But you live in D.C. like Brookline, a place that probably has a pharmacy on every corner.

We have some. Yes. Yeah. You know, during the summers, I come up here and because I am marginally self-employed, I can spend a chunk of the summer up here in Maine where it's a different, you know, to get to the pharmacy, it's a 15, 20 minute drive. Joel, how long does it take you to get to the pharmacy? 22 minutes. Glad you have it timed out. Monty, how long does it take you to get to the pharmacy down there in rural western Massachusetts? I can walk to a pharmacy in probably less than five minutes. Well, that's because you live in the metropolis of Ternus Falls.

That's right. But I could see a situation, and if you get a cut or an abrasion, and it's going to take you 22 minutes to get to the pharmacy, you would prefer to have some old unguent in the drawer rather than go and get some new unguent. Hmm. Yeah, I have a question for you. Why do you care? I care because if I want to take medication, I want to make sure that it works. And even though I know that the expiration

date may be random, it is often random, I'm not going to waste my headache on something that may or may not be efficient and work. And I feel silly buying a whole new bottle of whatever medication it is when I see a full one there. So I prefer to just get rid of those and have a joint effective drawer full of medication that we can both use. Can I add something? Oh, yeah, please. Did you happen to read the NPR article I sent your way? No, no. I'm not going to read any articles you send my way.

What, am I a teacher? Did you read that article from that publicly funded radio network that goes across the country, which we will not mention by name? That was a better way to refer to it. I'm sorry. You're not my teacher. I'm not doing homework. Tell me what it says. Okay.

to it. I'm sorry. You're not my teacher. I'm not doing homework. Tell me what it says. Okay. So what it says is essentially there was a study done on some really old medication and it was found to be, I believe it was like 90% of it was found to be still effective, very effective after 30 to 40 years. Okay. You have a quote here. The finding surprised both researchers. A dozen of the 14 compounds were still as potent as they were when they were manufactured, some at almost 100% of their labeled concentrations. Was this for pills or for ointments? I believe it was all pills. Yeah, because as Dr. McElroy suggests, and tell me if I'm wrong here, Sydney,

but you feel like pills tend to hang on to their effectiveness, right? They do, and you're right. That's not the only study that has shown that. Actually, through the Department of Defense, they do shelf life extension program studies all the time to see if they can continue to use giant lots of medications that the military has and is expiring, but they don't want to get rid of. So there are a lot of studies like that that show that the pills we take are probably

effective long after their shelf life says maybe 15, maybe 20 years, maybe 30. The only difference I would say what's hard about those studies and this one too is that the medications they study have been kept in their original packaging sealed that entire time and that's the one caveat to a lot of them is we don't know what happens once we've opened those packages and started using those pills does that change things we don't have a lot of studies to say the answer to that but I would say that yes they definitely are potent longer than the very arbitrary expiration dates, which are really the manufacturers say, well, we studied them for two or three years. They were still effective. So we'll slap that on there and move on. So you're suggesting that maybe Yael and Jeff should leave their drug drawer untouched for scientific purposes so that the Department of Defense can study Jeff's

half-finished bottles of Allegra. I like that. One more thing that I take blame for as well is that we store our medication in the bathroom. And doing research for this, I realized that is the worst place to do so because the humidity in itself and the heat and the change of temperature definitely can make the medication lose its effectiveness. So I would say that's even more so besides being open, we're probably not taking good care of our medication. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Yael, are you telling me you don't have a temperature-controlled Tylenol vault?

What? One of the things we got rid of when we moved too bad. Sydney McElroy, not that they've aired these concerns yet, but I'm wondering, is there ever a worry of an adverse effect because of an older drug? It's a great question. Not with the medicines we've discussed so far or the ones pictured in our evidence files here. No. But there are definitely, when we get into prescription medications, there are medications like insulin, nitroglycerin. Those are medicines that once they're expired, I mean, you need to get new ones. Don't take those past their expiration date. And there was

an old case where an old form of tetracycline was possibly causing kidney failure in patients because it was degrading when they were taking it past its expiration date. But that's not really on the market anymore. So most medicines don't become toxic per se. That's a pretty unusual case. It's just that prescription meds, if they lose their effectiveness and you need them to survive, obviously that's a bad situation. So Jeff and Yael, do you have any insulin? Do you have any nitroglycerin? Do you have any original flavor tetracycline rotting in your drawer? None of those. Okay. So what about C-profluxacin? Is that something we should be concerned about? I believe that was a Noldoran elf who forged magic swords. You know what it sounds like?

A character from the Adventure Zone. Sydney McElroy, you know what I'm referring to? The Adventure Zone? I may be familiar with that. Mildly familiar. So do you heard what Jeff said? I'm not going to try to say it. Do you know what medication he's referring to?

We'll get to why he's referring to it in a moment. Yes. Ciprofloxacin is an antibiotic. Cipro is what most people probably, if you recognize that, that's what you might have heard. Oh, for short. Yeah, Ciprofloxacin is an antibiotic. Cipro is what most people probably, if you recognize that, that's what you might have heard. Oh, for short. Yeah. Cipro.

So what would you say about Cipro? I looked into Cipro specifically for, I guess, reasons we will get to just to make sure I knew the data on that. And Cipro, actually, it does not appear that it becomes toxic over time. At least we have no evidence at this point. We've never tested every single expired bottle of cipro in history but we don't have any evidence of it becoming dangerous or losing a lot of potency in some studies up to even maybe a decade so my biggest fear when i see a bottle of unused antibiotic is not, is it dangerous? Because while I would not advise a patient to take it, it's probably okay.

My bigger concern is that we should always finish our antibiotics when we are prescribed them and not save them around for future use. It's more that issue as opposed to the pills themselves being dangerous. to the pills themselves being dangerous. But Dr. Sidney McElroy, what kind of human monster, nay, hypocrite, would be hoarding Cipro after its expiration date? I can't think of such a person, nor could I imagine seeing photographic evidence of such a crime. Wait a minute.

Jeff, I just scrolled down past the homework you assigned me. Tell me what I'm seeing here. I believe you are seeing the drug that we just said, which I am not good at saying with Yael's name on it. This is from your shared drug drawer. It is an unfinished bottle of Cipro prescribed to Yael. Date filled, 2-22, my wife's birthday, by the way, 2018. Discard after 2-22-2019. That's in the past, Yael. That is very true. And, you know, believe it or not, I don't go to the drawer daily to monitor the expiration dates and get rid of things the day after they expire. Because it kind of seems you do. Check. At least when it comes to Jeff. I think this should be a once a year kind of activity, a day where we, you know, put on some music, go through the drawer and look at expiration dates. So this is an example of one that has expired a few months ago, and I have yet to get rid of it. Why didn't you finish your course of antibiotics, Yael?

I travel a lot to developing countries, and I get these medication in case something happens while I'm away. So I did not have to use it. I see. Okay, that's fair. I'm not in trouble. Well, what we're trying to do, we're trying to keep superbugs from becoming antibiotic resistant by pumping all these antibiotics out, unless they're absolutely needed. So in that sense, you are contributing to the global superflu that will destroy us all. But in the small sense, no harm, no foul.

These drugs didn't do any harm. They just sat in a drawer. Now they're old. Throw them away. Yeah. Put that on your list. And just to clarify, I would never just throw away medication. There are very safe kind of return programs at pharmacies. So just want to make sure that Jeff knows that as well,

that we're not just planning to throw them in the garbage, but there are ways to return them and they're safely disposed of by professionals. I didn't even, never even occurred to me. Even the creams? Wow. I think the pharmacy accepts all types of medication. Okay. Hmm. Yael, how do you feel about the fact that Jeff, when submitting a picture of your personal medication, kindly redacted your last name, but certainly felt comfortable revealing to the entire podcast listening world that you needed an antibiotic. He will do anything to win, apparently. But, you know, we're all human. And I don't think it's nothing. Luckily, he didn't, you know, submit my embarrassing rash cream. So I'm OK.

What is the work that takes you to developing countries? I work for an international development nonprofit. Awesome. So here's the thing. Based on the consultation with Sidney McElroy, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of harm being done here. And Yael, even your complaint did not suggest that you were worried that by taking these old pills, Jeff was going to turn into a Benadryl Hulk or something. Be turned into some kind of creature. So why can't you just leave it alone? Why can't you just shove his stuff to the other side of the drawer and get fresh stuff for yourself? Well, I can. It does feel a little silly having to go by and just seeing, you know, a number of the same medication in the same place.

But I think it's just him being stubborn. And I want to kind of make a point that he doesn't always have to be stubborn. Is he stubborn in other ways? You know, sometimes, yes. Can you give me an example? Well, I guess relating to kind of the medical field and following the rules out there. So one example is that he insists that it's totally fine to use Q-tips in your ear and clean your ears every day, where I've heard over and over again that it's really bad for you and doctors say that you shouldn't do it.

And he ignores all of that and just decides that that's the right thing to do. So that's one example of being stubborn. Is he cleaning the weird folds of the outer ear or is he sticking that Q-tip right into the ear canal? You know, I haven't watched closely, but I can imagine it's all of it. Well, Jeff, you can speak for yourself. If you can hear me speaking now, Jeff. What?

Do you stick the Q-tip brand cotton-tipped baton into your ear canal? I am aware of the risks, and I do so very carefully. Yes or no, sir. Yes or no. That's a yes. Yeah, so do I. Dr. McElroy, are Jeff and I going to pierce our eardrums? Are we bad guys? I mean, I tell patients specifically not to do that, in part because of

the fear of piercing your eardrum, but more so just because you tend to indiscriminately shove the wax further back, as opposed to being able to blindly kind of dislodge it. And so you can end up with more wax impaction than you had to begin with. So I tell patients because I practice in West Virginia and I'm a, you know, folksy family doctor type, I tell them not to stick anything in their ear that's smaller than their elbow. Good advice. Good advice. Yael, you're saying that Jeff is something of a medical contrarian? I suppose, yes. Or like a conventional wisdom contrarian. He doesn't like the rules. You don't like the rules, do you, Jeff? I must admit I'm a weird dude with my weird systems. The most pervasive weird dude system is I know better than the rules.

These are just words written by an expert on a piece of paper. I know what's really true. How long were you guys dating before you moved in? I'm presuming that you're a romantic relationship, right? I shouldn't presume anything, I suppose. That is correct. How long have you guys been seeing each other and how long ago did you move in? I guess like a year.

We've been together almost two and a half years and we moved in together almost a year ago okay by the way jeff probably you should learn those dates try to remember future reference helps you don't want your relationship to expire good tips exactly That does have a shelf life. You notice when I noticed that Yael's Cipro expired on 2-22, first thing I thought of, oh, it's my wife's birthday. I remember. I remember things. Well, I know her birthday.

You know her birthday? That's good. Yes. So, Jeff, since you moved in together, have you discovered other ways in which Yael is, you know, policing your lifestyle, trying to get that Q-tip out of your ear, trying to say your drugs are too old? Any other things you do wrong around the new house that you share that you'd like to bring up at this time that might establish a pattern of invasiveness on Yael's part or weirdness on your part? That's a good question. You would think I would have thought of this before. Yeah, most guys just think they're right, so they don't come up with arguments. I think I'm right, but I also have an argument.

Yeah, I think that there are some things that I'm having trouble with a specific example at this moment. Well, why don't you take a moment to think up some examples because I think I've heard everything I need to. I'm going to climb into the drawer of drugs they have here at WERU, which is deep and wide. And I will come out in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Yael, I have a question for you. How is Jeff with other expired things like milk and other types of food? Yeah, same thing.

I don't think he'd drink milk or eat cheese. It's 14 years old, but definitely he laughs at the idea of an expiration date and will smell something. And if it smells OK, well, he'll eat it. Now, Jeff, it seems like the only dangerous expired medication that you have in the house, according to the good Dr. Sidney McElroy, is Yael's very own Cipro. Do you think Yael should be forced to throw the Cipro out? Absolutely. So you are in favor of throwing out expired medication? Uh-huh. Prescription, for sure, because it's normally designed to be used immediately.

So it's kind of different. Well, we'll be right back and see what Judge John Hodgman decides. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay.

there yeah i'm trying to spell it but it's tricky let me give it a try okay if you need a laugh and you're on the go call s-t-o-p-p-p-a-d-i it'll never fit no it will let me try if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p-p-p-d-c-o-o ah we are so close stop podcasting yourself a podcast from maximumfun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. Joel. What, Judge? I had some really old day quills when I was in that drawer of drugs here at WERU.

I'm feeling lightheaded. Yeah, my heart rate has raised. These are 10 years old and they're still working. That's the community for you. So thank you so much to Dr. Sidney McElroy, co-host of the Sawbones podcast and co-author of the Sawbones book, for keeping us on the medical straight and narrow here. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney,

is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.

And remember, no running in the halls. You know, I did a little internet poking around and discovered independently, independently, some of the homework that Jeff tried to make me read in terms of the studies of these older pills. And I discovered the same thing that Dr. Sidney McElroy discovered and Jeff discovered, is that based on the data we have, based at least on pills that were stored properly and in their medication, the pills really do retain their efficacy years past their expiration date. I think Jeff probably is mad that they conducted those studies without him as a test subject. We should find one that he can sign up for so he can eat all the pills he wants to and thumb his nose at Big Pharma's

expiration date recommendations, which, you know, seem conservative based on this evidence. I, like Jeff, am a Q-tip ear sticker inner. I obviously do not recommend this lifestyle for everyone. I've never experienced having impacted earwax due to this habit, unless I've only ever experienced impacted earwax, because I do it all the time. But there are definitely recommendations and rules made by companies and printed on their boxes that have, let's say, at least as much to do with cautioning

against the stupidest possible behavior and preventing people from getting ruinously hurt and protecting the company from a certain liability, right? So there might be someone who is dumb enough to put a Q-tip deep, deep, deep into their ear canal because they want to touch their brain. And Q-tip doesn't want that legal heat. So they say, keep it out of there. And I think that's probably wise for most people to not put things in their ears. I've gotten that Q-tip in there beyond the point of comfort of myself.

And I've had to pull, you know, I pushed the envelope a little in the ear canal and it's not fun. It's no good. I could have caused some problems there. I'm not saying I'm better than anyone. Expiration dates are part of a way that definitely food companies are preventing us from getting listeria for example preventing us from getting too reckless and drinking milk once it's chunky and dying right but those expiration dates are absolutely conservative especially the sell-by dates which don't indicate expiration at all right that's just when the supermarket determined, this has to be your problem now because we're not going to

store this anymore. And once it's your problem, you know, it's up to you. Use your best judgment. I think that Jeff is correct in his assessment that most of the old drugs he has in the old drug drawer probably work pretty good still, despite what the company is telling him, which is go buy more of our drugs. However, there are two exceptions, one that Jeff accepts and one that Jeff is hesitant to accept. is that there are certain prescription drugs that truly go bad and not only lose efficacy but can cause either active damage or cause damage because you think you're taking something that's good for you but it's not doing what it's supposed to be doing. And Jeff acknowledges that if a doctor, I'm glad to hear,

that if a doctor says throw this away after a certain period of time, that you should follow that rule because medical advice is different from commercial product advice. And I hope and trust, Jeff and Yael, I know Yael, you're on it, you're going to take the Cipro to a safe drug disposal facility at your local Rite Aid or whatever, which I've never even heard of. So that just shows how on top of it you are. But if a doctor tells you to do something, I would do it. And Dr. McElroy's patients, if you're listening, don't put a Q-tip in your ear. Your doctor tells you not to do it, and she knows better for you than a podcaster does, believe me.

We need to acknowledge and respect expertise in this world. It's something that's become awfully degraded, in no small part due to my making fun of expertise for many years on The Daily Show. But in general, culture has drifted away from acknowledging and respecting expertise, data, and science, and instead listening to podcasters and conspiracy theorists saying it's all BS. And I appreciate, Jeff, that you do seem to set a limit on your know-it-all-ness when it comes to prescriptions, drugs, and doctor's orders. There's multiple plural failures there, but I just have to keep talking because I'm just really riding this 14-year-old Dayquil high right now. The other exception, which maybe Jeff doesn't accept the rationale for, but it's going to happen anyway, and I don't think your life is going to be burdened, is you got to get rid of those old ointments. Get rid of those old ointments. And here's why. We don't have, or at least not, you didn't send me any homework, Jeff, as to the efficacy of ointments as they get older.

Our own resident medical expert, Dr. Sidney McElroy, suggested that ointments may lose efficacy compared to pills and capsules. I don't know what data point she's looking at there, how much of that is studies versus anecdotal life of a doctor in West Virginia, but I think it stands to reason that ointments after 15 years are probably ready to see the garbage pile. Because whatever the medical compounds in there, there's also a lot of, you know, oils and stearates and, you know, that stuff breaks down and becomes stuff that you don't want on your body. And also, I know from very, very, very personal experience that there is a distinct difference between using years-old cortisone cream and brand-new cortisone cream. Because the brand-new cortisone cream doesn't make you want to cry.

I don't know what the difference is. I don't know what's going on in that ointment. But that old stuff turned bad. but that old stuff turned bad. Any compounds, poultices, pastes, unguents or ointments that are past their expiration date, take them to your locally sanctioned, responsible unguent disposal center.

And then, Yael, you can have some fun buying some brand new ointments. But I don't think you have a problem with those pills, nor should I think that Jeff should have any problem with you getting your own stash of new ibuprofens that are for your use only if that's what you want. When you are living together, there are certain things that it is okay to keep apart. Toiletries and personal medications, among them. You don't have to use the same mouthwash. You don't have to use the same toothpaste. You don't have to use the same pills. As I've often said and recommended, people who are living together who have the means

should sleep in the largest bed possible. And many marriages would benefit from having two separate bedrooms in two separate villas separated by a beautiful reflecting pool, and you visit each other from time to time, like ancient Rome. While that is an extreme case, I certainly think that it is perfectly respectable to keep your own separate temperature-controlled Tylenol vaults, if that's what you want. Because part of medicine is feeling positive about your course of treatment. And if you don't feel good, yeah, I'll take janky old ibuprofens. Get some fresh ones for yourself. But I don't see any reason why he's got to throw away all of his old toys just

because he moved in with you. Keep your fun old drugs minus the ointments, Jeff. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jeff, are you willing to get rid of your ointments and yet hang on to your pills? I will follow the judge's orders. What do you think, Yael? Is this a fair ruling that you at least have succeeded in getting rid of the polysporin and the bacitracin and the Benadryl cream, etc., while having to endure some potentially mildly ineffective Cipro or ibuprofen or aspirin? Yes, the ointments were definitely the grosser of them all. And if he wants to come and borrow my ibuprofen when his headache still remains,

I'll consider giving him some. Well, thank you, Jeff and Yael, for being on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thanks for having us. Thank you. And let me thank, once again, Sydney McElroy for joining us as our expert witness. You can listen to her on Sawbones on the Maximum Fun Network, as well as still buffering. That's still a going concern. Is it not, Sydney? Yes. Yes, it is. Yeah. The wonderful podcast with you and your sisters. That's right. Where we talk about teen life. And Sawbones, the book, is available at bookstores everywhere in the world. Sydney, what a pleasure to talk to you. I hope you and your family are doing great. Oh, thank you.

Another case expired like some bad Benadryl. Before we dispense some swift justice, we want to thank Brian Colavito for naming this week's episode. Side effects may include justice. If you'd like to name a future episode, follow Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions there. Follow us on Twitter. I'm at Monty Belmonte and Judge Hodgman is at Hodgman. Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets, hashtag JJ Ho, and check out the Maximum Fund subreddit to discuss this episode. We're on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. Make sure to follow us there for evidence and other fun stuff. This week's episode was recorded by John Rigatuso at Clean Cuts, where they have all the freshest basset racing in Washington, D.C., and by Joel Mann, the nighttime sniffling, sneezing, coughing, aching,

stuffy head fever so you can rest engineer at WERU in Orland, Maine. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Now let's get to the swift justice where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment. Ready, Judge Hodgman? I am ready. Lauren says, my mother briefly lived in Illinois. She insists the name of the state is pronounced Illinois.

My entire family has pleaded our case, but it only makes her irrationally irate. Please help us. Okay, so I got to use Wikipedia. Sir, irrationally irate, please help us. Okay. So I got to use Wikipedia. I always enjoy it. And not surprisingly, Illinois is derived from a French word. It was the name ascribed to the Native Americans around the Great Lakes area by French Catholic missionaries and explorers. Illinois, it's a French approximation word, an imitation from the Miami, Illinois verb meaning he speaks the regular way. Miami, Illinois is a language group.

The Miami are a native peoples. The Miami River in Florida is named for the Miami people and the city of Miami is named for that river. And that leads to the geographically appropriate but still confusing, maybe most confusing university in the United States, Miami University of Ohio, which paradoxically is in Oxford. The Miami people are now in Oklahoma. They're not in the Great Lakes region anymore. Why? Because of forced mass migration called the Trail of Tears. Never forget, we stole this country. And technically, we stole this country.

And technically, we are all saying all of the place names wrong. None of us speaks the regular way. That said, there is a place called Illinois. Now, there are plenty of places that Americanize their previous French names. Calais, Maine, for example. Versailles, Missouri or Missouri. But I could not find evidence of a consistent or proper ingrained regional dialectal pronunciation of Illinois as Illinois, other than on that Surf Chan Steve Hans album. So stop it, Lauren's mom. Illinois. It's called

Illinois. Right, Joel Mann? Illinois. Illinois. Right, Monty Belmonte? Correct. Illinois. Illinois, right? Monte Belmonte? Correct. Since this is our last Summertime Funtime episode with you, Monte Belmonte, let me just say a special thank you, as always, to you. It is always so much fun to have you on the podcast. Thank you for being here.

And you can listen to Monte on the radio at WRSI, accessible at 93.9 on your frequency modulation dial in Northampton, Massachusetts and in Virans, or all over the world at wrsi.com. And Monty, you now have a podcast of your own, do you not? Yes, I do. It's like my radio show without the music, which we are legally not allowed to present to you via podcast. It's called A Week of Mornings. So it's all my interviews and conversations and phone calls with listeners, etc. A Week of Mornings with Monty Belmonte. Here's the thing, Monty Belmonte. I love your show on WRSI The River. You know what the worst thing about it is? The music. The music. I don't want to hear that music. Some people actually like it. I know some people like music that's fine but i'm just saying you

act as though stripping the music out is a bug but to me it's a feature because i get to hear all all you being funny you being smart and interesting you interviewing celebrities both national and local you talk to wine experts and pet experts and and you have a spanish word of the day it's a lot of fun and And I encourage everyone who enjoys Monty here on this program to go listen to him on his own program. And he is my friend, Joel Mann. I've been sitting here across from you for a while here at WERU. You mentioned that we're in pledge drive zone. Pledge drive. For WERU. And this episode will come out just as the pledge drive is wrapping up. Correct. So it's not too late to go to w-e-r-u dot o-r-g.

You are an org. And donate some money and listen to the station. Listen to the station you're donating to. Thank you, Judge. It's not all Joe Bird and the field hippies. It's all kinds of music and all kinds of main life and advocacy

and it's a lot of fun. It's been a pleasure. And you can listen. And the summer isn't over yet. Please go and see Joel and it's a lot of fun. It's been a pleasure. And you can listen. And, you know, the summer isn't over yet. Please go and see Joel and the Night Flight Pioneers, also known as Day and Night Jazz Trio, at the Pentagoat Inn on the porch every Tuesday evening, starting at 5 p.m.

5 to 8, Tuesdays. All right, folks, this is Monty's part, but I'm going to do it anyway because it's fun. That's about it for this week's episode. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org slash JJHO or just email me, Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. No case too small. We read them all. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. MaximumFun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Audience supported.