Judge John Hodgman - Slash-Friction

Episode Date: October 26, 2011

What IS a horror movie? Bryan's list of 100 horror movies is all about content. His friend Jay says it's all about the audience's reaction. Who is the master of the macabre? Only one justice of the deceased can decide!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week's case slash friction. Brian is compiling a list of his top 100 horror films using a complex Excel spreadsheet and rating system. He brings the case against his friend, Jay. Jay says that films which induce powerful fear are by definition horror movies whether or not they feature classic horror tropes like ghouls ghosts and monsters brian disagrees he says horror is a genre defined by the content of the films not the reaction of the audience he says that the central question is whether the characters are scared and the audience's feelings are irrelevant. So, does a scared audience mean it's a horror flick?

Or is it a thriller if it doesn't feature a few blood-curdling screams from the leading lady? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. The power of Judge John Hodgman compels you! The power of Judge John Hodgman compels you! The power of Judge John Hodgman compels you! The power of Judge John Hodgman compels you! Hi, Jesse. You can swear him in. Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that the only emotion he's ever inspired in audiences is adoring fealty? I do. I do.

Very well. You may be seated, Judge Hodgman. Thank you, Bailiff Jesse. Okay, we have Brian and Jay. Who is bringing the complaint? That would be me. Brian, did you catch the reference I Jay. Who is bringing the complaint? Uh, that would be me. Brian, did you, did you catch the reference I was making as I entered the courtroom? Uh, that seemed like you were trying to exercise a demon out of someone.

Yes. And it is up to me who is the one who is demonically possessed and who is the drunken priest who throws himself out the window. Brian, you are bringing the complaint. Will you state the nature of your complaint, please? Yes. I'm compiling a horror movie list, and it's an ongoing life's work. And I was discussing it with my good friend.

Let me just stop there and say, good for you, sir. Your life's work is a list of horror movies. I didn't say it is my only life's work. I'm just saying that it's something that will continue throughout my life rather than being definitively done at any point. Sure. You also have your list of science fiction movies. I get it.

All right, move on. And your unfinished symphony. Yeah, there you go. Things like that. Okay. You'll never see the light of day. Okay, Mr. Holland's opus. Let's go. Things like that. They'll never see the light of day. Okay, Mr. Holland's opus, let's go. And I

was daunted by the idea that there might be a universe of movies that isn't really restrained by any really good definition of a horror movie. And I decided I wanted to talk to Jay about it. And I proposed what I thought a horror movie was. And he completely disagreed. It revolved around the movie The Silence of the Lambs. He said, well, that's a horror movie. And I he completely disagreed. It revolved around the movie, The Silence of the Lambs. He said, well, that's a horror movie. And I said, I don't think it is. It doesn't have the right content for a horror movie. And that's really where everything grew from. He suggests that a horror movie is something that is, you know, atmosphere. Well, no, you know what? Jay can speak for himself. Here's what happened. You're making your list of your top, what, 1,000? Well, there are more than 100 on there,

but I want the list to be the top 100. The top 100, because history requires this. I understand. And so your personal top 100 horror movies, and it occurred to you to ask Jay about Silence of the Lambs, even though you don't believe it belongs on the list. Is that right? Or was it that you asked him what's missing? He said Silence of the Lambs and you said you're crazy and then you stabbed him in the neck. I initially drafted a list and Silence of the Lambs, because it's a very good film, was really high on the list. But I thought to myself, I don't think that it actually should be involved. Like if it were going to be number 100,

it wouldn't matter. I wouldn't have to come up with a definition, but if it's going to be like number five, then it's a pretty important point whether or not it should be included. You had some doubts about it. So you turned to your friend and as soon as he said that should be on the list,

you're like, well, that confirms it. It should not be on the list. Yeah, that's pretty much how it went. It sounds like you guys are married. All right. Right now it is not on the list you're like well that confirms it it should not be on the list yeah that's pretty much how it sounds like you guys are married all right right now it is not on the list is that correct that's correct okay and this is an offense to you jay this is an offense to me um it's it's clearly a horror movie how so now a lot of people say it's a thriller and that that's part of our argument i'm not here to talk about a lot of people. I'm here to talk about you and your friend Brian. I think, yes, I would say that it counts. It invokes fear in the audience

and based on the way that horror movies have classically been defined, it is a horror movie. And Brian says it doesn't have the right content. It has not one, but two serial killers featured in the movie. Now, I understand that you're now talking on a microphone that has been lowered to you in a basket because you're at the bottom of a well, but I am getting a lot of microphone

interference. So please try it. It holds the microphone steady or else it gets the hose again. You understand what I'm saying? Yes. Okay. So what is it that qualifies this as a horror movie? The sense of fear that is induced in the audience.

It is scary. Yes. Yes, it is scary. People would generally, a logical, rational person would consider it scary. Okay, as opposed to a psychopathic cannibal? Yes. It might be a rom-com to them. Sure. Okay, I get you. Okay. Brian, what do you want to say about that? The general goal of a horror film is to create fear from the character's perspective in the film. From there, there needs to be some malevolent force. It could be supernatural or natural that's intending to cause harm to the characters in the film. And the plot of the movie has to revolve around the main character's fear of that malevolent force and their struggle for survival. And the reason I don't think Silence of the Lambs fits is that Clarice could just give up and go home

and no one would chase her down. She's not in danger. She's putting herself in danger. So it's more like a cop movie that has a tense and eerie atmosphere, because if she decided that she quit, that's it. No more. It's not coming at her directly. She is welcoming the situation. What about seven? Okay, you know what? I'll have order. Thank you. What about seven? That is a little bit different when it comes to... Is seven on your list? Let's take a look at your list. I have it here in front of me.

Seven's not on my list. You're right. A simple search. A simple search of your Excel spreadsheet shows that Seven is not on your list. Like Clarice Sterling, I am a first-class investigator. Well, and in that movie, Seven definitely falls closer to, on a spectrum, a horror movie. But he's still a police officer. If anything, Kevin Spacey is being hunted by Brad Pitt. Brad Pitt is Leatherface in that one, right?

I don't know if I go that far, but you're right. Kevin Spacey's just trying to take a little road trip through the skins of people that he meets. He's just trying to take a bloody road trip through an unnamed city and take care of some personal business. And he's being hunted by every turn by Brad Pitt and Morgan, an easy reader. I actually agree with your ridiculous characterization. When we talk about the main character,

we have to talk about the main character who is not a murderer, him or herself. Sure, yeah. However, there is something on your list that I want to talk to you about here. You have Shaun of the Dead on your list. Wasn't this a point of contention here? That is also a point of contention.

Yeah, that's a comedy. Well, that's what... Easy there, Jay, or it gets the hose again. Okay, you're going to get your chance, Jay. Is that not a comedy film? I think that it is a humorous horror film because it has a lot of genre conventions. It does. It is a parody of a horror film.

And when you look into it, if you're looking at it from the character's perspective, throughout the movie, they are frightened and they are struggling for survival throughout the entire movie. Well, it is a parody of a horror movie, is it not? I mean, that would have to be the intent of the director, wouldn't it have to be, whether or not it's a parody or just a humorous take on it? On your list, you have Shaun of the Dead as the number 11 top horror film of all time. It is unique.

I mean, look, this is your personal list. I get it. You could be a deranged monster making crazy lists in blood in a little moleskin notebook. It's still your list. Do you know what I mean? I'm not going to doubt that, but I want to understand where you're coming from. For example, how someone puts a human centipede on your list one step above 1931 Dracula. on your list, one step above 1931 Dracula. So let's talk about Shaun of the Dead for a second. You give it an eight, a seven, a four, a four, a nine, a 10, a 10, and a 10.4 in these categories respectively. Impact, originality, scares, atmosphere, story, pace, entertainment, subjective. Now I can pretty much figure out that all of it is subjective of course but i know what scares and atmosphere and story and pace mean originality i get what is impact um i wanted to kind of take into effect into account uh what kind of impact on you know like the landscape of horror movies or and so cinematic impact on the history something along those those lines. But I didn't want to skew it so much to just being an older film.

Because clearly The Exorcist gets a huge rating for impact. But just because something came out in the last 10 years doesn't mean that it shouldn't get a high rating for impact. Like Paranormal Activity is a very interesting and unique kind of contribution to the genre, so it should have a high rating for that as well. Is it higher than Blair Witch? No, I don't know. I don't remember what is on that list. Yeah, it is.

It is. It's number 22. Oh, it's rated higher, yeah, overall. It's rated higher overall, okay. Because I didn't like the other portions of blair witch yeah blair witch was very unique and cinematography was good but for the most part i didn't really care for the film for impact you gave paranormal activity one i should specify a six you gave blair witch project a seven all Okay. So, and which puts Blair Witch Project, along with the other stuff, at number 110.

Now, I would say, again, this is your list. This is your lunatic scratchings in your own hidey hole. I get it. But it's hard for me to see Shaun of the Dead at number 11 and Rosemary's Baby at number 21. Well, the list is obviously subjective. I thought we were talking about what a horror movie is, not how much you like the movies on my list. I won't have you speak to the judge that way.

That's okay, Bailiff Jesse. This goes to the point of whether you're an idiot. It's okay, Bailiff Jesse. I understand where he's coming from. You know, you have Halloween 2 at at number 7 and i don't even see halloween it's in the top 10 isn't it you have a number 14 but are you looking at my imdb list or just the uh excel sheet i'm looking at what i'm looking at the excel sheet that you sent in as exhibit a and it was you sent it in in a trapper keeper made out of human skin, dropped it off at the police station

with my name written on it. Is that what I should be looking at? Seems to me that's what I should be looking at. I mean, all this stuff, impact, originality, scares, atmosphere, story, pace, and then you have a parameter called subjective. What does that measure? Well, so if two movies are close and I clearly like one more, then I get to rate it higher there so that it has a higher spot on the list. Oh, okay. But how is it, for example, your number one is Dawn of the Dead,

which is a respectable choice. Everyone will agree that that is a horror movie. The characters are afraid. The plot revolves main characters being brain-eated by a malevolent force, and they're trying to escape, right? Impact, you put at 10, greater than Rosemary's Baby or The Exorcist. Originality, you put at 10. Scares, you put at 10.

Atmospheres, you put at 10. Story, you put at 10. Pace, you put at 10. Entertainment, you put at 7. Subjective, you put at 10 for a total of 77. So how does the subjective thing work there? Because you have other ratings for subjective 10.1, 9, 8, 8, 10.4. What is the Madman's Calculus that you're doing in the subjective column?

I just don't understand. You're just adding numbers to get things to where you think they should be on the list? Admittedly, and what you're pointing out, the list is very, very subjective. But I didn't want, just because out of my head, I didn't want to say, well, I like this movie, so put it there. So I wanted to get a lay of where the movies stood as I saw them, maybe objectively, but not really, but closer to objective than me just saying, well, I like this movie better. And then once they were laid out on the table, I wanted to move them around a little bit to fit what I thought the list should actually look like. You don't have to explain to us that you made this list of your top 100 horror films because you wanted to get a lay.

Okay. I mean, here's the thing, though. One can make a list, and one can make it privately and have this in your head and have that be your life's work. The 100 best horror movies, according to me. And yet, you don't put it on the internet

unless you are looking for a fight. Don't you? I mean, that's the whole point of this, is it not? To spur a conversation and to look like a fight and to induce people to try to murder you so that you can live out your own horror movie. Like Kevin Spacey, you have kept a little journal full of hand scribed entries about how much you hate the world. And now you're going out there and revealing it and being chased by detectives. That no sense at all but you know what i'm saying well yeah clearly i want conversation and disagreement and something like

that yeah well guess what you got both today sir 30 days of night is not better than the exorcist i don't know what calculus he can use what thank you i'm so glad someone finally said that here's the thing. I don't necessarily disagree. Not that it matters, right? I don't disagree necessarily with your definition of a horror film. I think it's pretty inclusive and pretty accurate. It's a pretty good catch-all for what a horror movie is.

I do think that your stipulation that the character has to be afraid, but the audience member doesn't have to be, I would disagree with that. I think horror movies are designed to evince fear in the audience so that they can psychologically work through those dark fears. And I think that my TEDx Midwest companion from last week, Russ Craven, would agree with me since he just said it. That's it. What argument can you make that 30 Days of Night is a better film than The Exorcist? Well, something I'm big on is pace. And I think that it was paced better. And I found it more frightening.

What does that mean? More things are happening throughout the film. There's not a lot of downtime. Uh-huh. Because as I'm watching movies on the margins of what is even considered a decent movie, what I hate is movies that could be okay, but they're very slow.

And slow movies are driving me crazy. So pace is a very important issue with me. Maybe you should just call those marginal films exorcist-like films. You said that. I didn't say that. I still put it in my top 25. What you put in your top 25 doesn't matter to me. You are an authority only in your own personal weird basement full of moths.

Okay? We can have a conversation about which movie is better than the other. But you're stipulating to, well, it's still in my top 100. Like, I don't care. No offense. I don't care. But if you are sitting here via Skype telling me that 30 Days of Night, look, I like Danny Houston a lot. It just doesn't track for me, sir. It just doesn't track.

All right. Jay? Yes. What do you think of the definition of the horror movie? I take a more classic interpretation of the horror movie. I have some of my evidence, Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, as discussed on Horror.org, an anthology by an author who writes about horror movies, as well as the American Film Institute's own definition of horror movies,

all seem to fit better with my definition than with Brian's. So I don't really have my own definition. I just am saying that Brian's definition is crap. Is correct or incorrect? Crap. I'm sorry. C-R-A-P. Oh. It sounds to me like you're just more offended that he didn't want to put your favorite movie on this list.

And you trot out the dictionary. I'm not getting much of an argument from you here. I think that the whole concept that, first of all, that it's content-based. You brought up Shaun of the Dead, which is one that we discussed. Do you think that that should not be on the list? That should not be on the list. It's a comedy. It's trying to invoke, I feel like I watched the movie and I laughed and it was good.

Right. But if we have that, do we have Young Frankenstein? Do we have Scary Movie? Oh. that, do we have Young Frankenstein? Do we have Scary Movie? Oh, do we have Young Frankenstein? Humor is an interesting thing when it comes to the horror movies. So there has to be some balance of the actual horror movie.

I don't know, I'm stammering now. Just answer the question simply. Young Frankenstein, yes or no? No. Why not? It's full intent of that movie, and the effect of that entire movie is humor. It is pure parody. Why isn't Psycho on your list?

I don't think Psycho is a horror movie. Wow. Okay, why not? Because she is frightened for approximately two seconds before she's dead. And really, the whole movie is atmosphere. It is creepy, and it is a great movie, but the character that's in it doesn't know that she's being hunted by the malevolent force until he shows up with a knife.

And so for the three seconds that she's afraid, I don't think that that's sufficient to constitute an actual horror movie where she's struggling for her own survival with the thing that's chasing her. I put this question to my friend Nicholas McCarthy, who is a horror film aficionado and was the person who introduced me to most of the horror films that I've ever seen in my life, including The Evil Dead and The Evil Dead 2 and Army of Darkness, I saw on my own. And he's currently directing his first feature horror film based on his Sundance award-winning short, The Pact. You have to, I'm stipulating his authority because I respect his opinion. I just wanted to get his take on this. And this is what he had to say.

Brian put Halloween II in his list of top horror films, but not Psycho. Psycho was the film that invented what became the slasher genre, and his list is full of examples of that. But most importantly, Psycho is the movie that changed how we perceive monsters and the entire horror genre. In fact, both Norman Bates and Hannibal Lecter are based on the same true-life cannibal, Ed Gein. The key here is true life. Psycho was the movie that destroyed the old guard of horror by making the monster a real but unknowable person, a horror device which is still constantly mined, recent examples being The Strangers and Hostel, along with many other films.

What do you think about that? I'm going to make a parallel. When you consider somebody for whether or not they should be included in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, one of the things is influence on future bands and music, which is what he's saying. Psycho is an influence on later horror movies, correct? Jazz can be influential on rock music, but it isn't rock music. And Psycho can be influential on horror movies, but that doesn't make it a horror movie just because it influenced horror movies. So by your definition, the person at risk has to be pursued relentlessly for an extended period of time with full knowledge that they are being pursued relentlessly and that they are trying to escape. Yes. Okay.

In the movie known as Jaws, number 30 on the existing list that you sent me via human skinogram, Chief Brody could have left the island at any time, no? But everybody around the area was at risk. Anybody in the water was at risk. But they weren't the main character. If the scene is shot from their perspective,

it's a main enough character to be from their perspective. Wait, wait, wait, wait a minute. Wait a minute. I think the holes in your argument here are so apparent that I think you can even see down those holes

and see the people you've got trapped down at the bottom of them. This is going to play itself out very clearly. If you start saying to me, well, but it shows the movie from the victim's point of view, right? Then I can say to you, Silence of the Lambs does as well. They are not the main characters of the film. The main characters of both films is a law enforcement officer who feels that he

must pursue the unknown terror in order to protect those around him. What's the difference? Bullet-bited. All right. Jaws isn't on my list anymore. I agree with you in that regard. Wow. Okay. Because you don't even have to go in the water. You can avoid it in that way. I realize now that, Jay, do you have anything you want to say aside from quoting the dictionary to You don't even have to go in the water. You can avoid it in that way. I realize now that, Jay, do you have anything you want to say aside from quoting the dictionary to me at this point? I feel like I can let Brian dig his own grave and sit back and watch. Well, you're a monster as well then.

Oh, indeed. This has definitely become Brian against the world. The lone monster wandering the countryside as we chase him with pitchforks. So I'm going to put him out of his misery. I have enough to make my decision. I'm going to chambers. I will be back. I will replenish my supply of human blood and then I'll be back.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jay, I have to begin by asking you, would you say that it's the same dark forces within Brian that motivate him to create a list like this, that motivate him to create such a complex and bizarre definition of the genre? Yes, I think Brian really created this because I can tell if a movie is scary if I find it scary. And it's usually then a horror movie. Brian is a jerk and things don't scare him. So he's created this as a way to figure out what horror movies are because he doesn't get scared, kind of like how psychopaths don't get scared. Brian, are you some kind of unfeeling psychopath? Perhaps after watching as many horror movies as I have, it is harder to actually elicit any fright or anything out of me. So yeah, sure, I'm a psychopath.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. I believe it was the great horror novel writer, Cervantes, who wrote that all comparisons are odious and that all rats want to eat your flesh. I will say that I agree with the first part. These lists are intensely pointless. These lists are intensely pointless. And I am not here to tell you, Brian, that you should like The Exorcist more than you like 30 Days of Night. I am here to tell you that if you are saying that 30 Days of Night is better than The Exorcist, you are wrong.

But we could argue about that forever and get nowhere. I do think there are some deep flaws, Brian, in both the rankings on your list. That is my subjective opinion. But also in the logic by which you assembled the list, which is to say, one, I think that it may be that you are a psychopath who cannot feel emotion or feel empathy with people on the screen. But I find your definition that the person on the screen has to be scaredable forces that we fear in our own lives, and either triumphing over them or being turned into human centipedes by them. Both have their own cathartic experience that we have as viewers. The clinical way that you are looking at this is, to me, a little troubling, but I get it. It's your thing.

If that is your definition, though, I think that, oh, and then there's a second problem I have with your list, which is kind of that it exists. If you want to say that you like a movie better than another movie, I'm with you with that. I would like to hear an argument that is specific to why this movie is better than another movie, how this movie is better and this movie fails, why The Exorcist is not so good while 30 Days of Night is great in very specific terms. You're stipulating to, well, I rated it seven on pace. To me, to another human being, is kind of meaningless

because these criteria themselves are completely subjective. However, the criteria that we laid out for inclusion on the wrist is pretty reasonable, except for the sociopathic angle that I discussed before. And additionally, that is something where once you set the criteria for the list, that becomes the criteria for the list. And no one, no matter how much they love Jodie Foster, can force you to put something on the list if it doesn't meet the criteria. Now, my friend Nicholas McCarthy, the director of the forthcoming feature film, The Pact, a horror film, believes very strongly that The Signs of the Lambs should be on this list. And he gave a whole lot of evidence that I could have cited to you as to why and this tradition and the overlap between the film noir tradition

and the police procedural tradition and the horror movie tradition, how they all fit together. And I agree with him that I think Psycho should be there. But that said, you made an extremely compelling argument for why it shouldn't be there that I had never considered before, which is that Clarice Starling can go home. She can quit. And that to me, while I don't necessarily feel that your dogma for what a horror film is a prescription for is necessarily a prescription for a for what a horror film is a prescription for is a is necessarily prescription for a good film. It certainly is a prescription for a formula that we identify as horror. And that aspect is an aspect of horror films that I had not really considered before. And one that really moved me to make my decision, which is, yes, you are correct, Ryan.

which is, yes, you are correct, Ryan. Silence of the Lambs does not belong on your list because it is primarily a police procedural with horror elements in which the main character is only stalked relentlessly at the very end of the movie. And God knows that doesn't count. She's only stalked relentlessly through a basement by a killer wearing night vision goggles for three minutes. That can't count as a horror movie.

That should be the whole movie yeah right if the whole movie was she shows up and and he goes well she's a great big fat person and he and she goes she was a large girl yes and that's the opening scene and then from then on she can't get out of that house would that that would be a horror movie by your definition right yes it would yes and you know what by mine as well now too, I would say. I think that there's something, you're onto something there. And I'm sorry, Jay, I know how infuriating this must be to you, but your friend is making a list precisely to infuriate people. So mission accomplished. But I don't think that that movie belongs on the list.

However, by your same criteria, I do not think Jaws belongs on that list. And I appreciate the fact that you bit down on the seven stilettos that are designed to kill the spawn of Satan and are removing it from the list. That as well. But I have to say this. I am ordering you to take Shaun of the Dead off your list. It is a comedy, just as, frankly, Zombieland is. It is a comedy using just as frankly, Zombieland is. It is a comedy using the conventions of horrors. It is a comedy using the genre trappings of horror to tell a comedy story. And that, I am afraid, disqualifies them from your very reasonable list. So I will take off,

I will prohibit Sean of, excuse me, I will prohibit Sean of, uh, excuse me. I will prohibit silence of the lambs. You agree to take off jaws. You got to take off either Sean of the dead or zombie land. I leave it to you to insanely argue the other one. This is the sound of a gavel. I'm terrified. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Do you feel vindicated, Brian? Yeah, in a way. I wouldn't expect him to wholeheartedly agree with my list. So yeah, I feel like this was good. This was good.

Jay, is your friend Brian out of control? We both enjoy watching horror movies, but he's taking this to a new level. I haven't seen him or heard from him in the last eight months. I'm pretty sure he just lives in the basement, um, tweaking this list, um, and, uh, murdering people who disagree with him. Jay, Brian, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thank you. Thank you very much guys. And, and Brian, please don't murder me. Thank you very much, guys. And Brian, please don't murder me. It is very spooky in the chambers today, Judge Hodgman. Hey, Jesse, come over here and feel this stainless steel bowl full of eyeballs. Oh, I'm kidding you. It's not human eyeballs.

We do have some movie-related docket cases here. Here's one from Kristen. She says that she is having a dispute with her husband, Alex. She says that at the end of a scene, the finish of a take in a movie, the director says, and scene. Her husband says that the director says, and scene. Which is it?

Well, as you know, Jesse, I've appeared in several films. Baby Mama, starring Tina Fey. The Invention of Lying with Ricky Gervais. And Arthur, the remake of Arthur, the one that got right. And other TV shows and short things in movies. And I've never heard a director say either of those things. The only time I've ever heard anyone say and scene is when they are sarcastically making fun of how some people end an improvisational comedy scene or an improvisational dramatic scene as an acting exercise.

And in that case, I think the saying is, my understanding is always, and scene, A-N-D, scene. Meaning we're closing the improvised scene at this point. And scene, I've never heard said before in my life, and I hope to never hear it again. Our final question comes from Patrick. This dispute comes from Robert. He says that he and his friend Patrick disagree on matters Dracula. Robert says that there is

no canonical evidence that Dracula ever says blah, and that this was an affectation thrust upon the good count by comedians post facto. He says he hasn't seen all of the Dracula movies, but he has seen Dracula, Son of Dracula, Dracula, A.D. 1972, Monster Squad, The Creeps, The Satanic Rites of Dracula, and the super low budget Bruce Glover film Die Hard Dracula. And in none of these films does Dracula say blah. So is blah a post-canonical addition for comic effect or is it actually native to the character Dracula?

I think this is what you would say is what Star Wars people would refer to as being in the extended canon. In other words, it's not... So it disappeared in the novelization. Yes, it's not in the core product in the Star Wars world, the three original Star Wars movies, and I guess the other ones too. But it's in the extended universe of the Dracula mythos is that a Dracula says, bleh, bleh.

It is as much a part of the overall Dracula mythos at this point as Count Chocula is, certainly. But it does, I do have to confess ignorance in this one instance, which is, I don't know and would like to know the origin of the bleh thing with Dracula's. I call all vampires Dracula's, by the way.

That's in the canon. So if anyone out there wants to do a little research and actually track down the etymology of bleh and can provide some written and even better, some audiophonic evidence, I would be glad to send that person an autographed copy of my new book, That Is All. Because I think it would be fun to know. I don't know. It had to have started somewhere. The question really has to be resolved is, did it start purely as a joke riff on Dracula's? Or was there a non-joking, non-comedic Dracula-type film in which that affectation, that vocal exclamation, bleh, was first used,

that was then made fun of by comedians later on? I'd like to know the answer myself. And I would like to know, for my own personal reference, which episode of our friend Tom Sharpling's program, The Best Show on WFMU, featured an extended supposition on the part of Tom and his guest, who I believe was John Glaser, the creator of the Very Funny Television program,

Delocated, on the possibility that there could be a Dracula version of Google where the only difference would be when you pressed the search button, it would make the sound blah, blah. Yeah, okay. the search button, it would make the sound bleh. Bleh. Yeah, okay. Best show fans, go back to the archives and get Jesse the name and number

of that episode, or the date and number of that episode, I should say. And the rest of you actually go do some homework and find out where, who was the first

to say bleh. Happy Halloween, by the way, Jesse. Oh, thank you. What are you going as this year? A bailiff again? Well, I mean, if the shoe fits.

You're wearing both of them, so yeah, I'm going as a judge again, but a sexy judge. Was there something else that you wanted to say after this? No, simply that I hope everyone has a happy

and safe Halloween. Please don't eat any razor blades. And please do consider giving out as treats this year a copy of my book, That Is All, available in stores. Well, it would be too early. You can pre-order it now, I suppose, at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, IndieBound, Powell's. My book comes in minis. You can buy cellophane bags of them by the hundred, and you can leave them in your cupboard until next Halloween where you can give them out to kids unsuspecting. I think that anyone who doesn't at the very least go to areas of my expertise dot com and check out the schedule of your many appearances promoting this book in which people can shake your hand and thank you for the hard work that you've done on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. See you on the road, everybody. Happy Halloween.

Bye, everyone. Spooky doodle doo. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support this show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Matt Gourley. His great podcast, by the way, is called Super Ego. You can find it in iTunes or online at GoSuperEgo.com. You can find John Hodgman online at AreasOfMyExpertise.com.

If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, email us and be sure and include your telephone number. The email address is Hodgman at Maximum Fun dot org. If you have thoughts about the show, you can always comment on it on our message board, forum dot Maximum Fun dot org. We'll see you online and next time right here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Oh, wait. Was he a great big fat person?