Judge John Hodgman - Snob V. Slob

Episode Date: February 24, 2011

A fiancee demands that her sweetheart shape up and dress for a promotion, plus other clothing-related disputes.

It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. We're currently in Judge John Hodgman's chambers for a little bit of clearing the docket before we get to our primary case. Hello, Judge Hodgman. Hello. So this week's case is all about clothes, and we have a few disputes that were sent to us at Hodgman at MaximumFun.org that are clothing related that we thought we'd get out of the way before we get to our main case. Yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready to make some summary judgments for sure. Here's the first one from David. He says recently our office had a unique hat competition. Oh, God. He was confident he'd win with his vintage boy George

visor, but was shocked when he was disqualified by the event's organizers who proclaimed that a visor is not a hat. He would like a judgment on whether or not a visor, specifically a Boy George vintage visor, is a hat. I don't know whether I've never been more happy or more sad that I have not worked in an office for 15 years. Well, you're happy because you don't have to get into

a unique hat competition, but you're sad because you don't have anywhere to wear your vintage boy George visor to. I'm happy because I don't have to get into a unique hat competition, but I'm sad because I don't get to goof off as much as those people obviously do. Visor is not a hat.

It does not protect the crown of the head. It would not be any good in rain. Mark emails and says he's having a dispute with his girlfriend, Debra. She says that there's such a thing as corduroy. Excuse me. He says that there's such a thing as corduroy jeans and each of them own a pair. She says that jeans, by definition, are made of denim and any pants made out of corduroy are referred to as cords or corduroys, no matter what style or cut. He says it nearly ruined Thanksgiving, this disagreement.

That most corduroy of holidays. Besides, of course, November 11th, the date that That most corduroy of holidays. Besides, of course, November 11th, the date that most resembles corduroy. There is such a thing as corduroy pants in the design style of jeans, or for short, C-P-I-T-D-S-O-J. But there is no such thing as corduroy jeans. Jeans, of course, comes from the term bleu de jeune, meaning blue of Genoa, which means, of course, they have to be blue, but even blue corduroy wouldn't qualify because they do have to be made out of the fabric known as denim, which is not the cord of the chain at all.

It is from the French town of Nîmes, Denim. Here's a dispute from Lucas. It's a dispute that he's essentially having with himself. He was out at a bar with his brother, Zach. They were somewhat to very inebriated. His brother was wearing sunglasses. And in Lucas's description of the situation, I don't know how reliable a narrator is, he and his brother were standing back to back

while talking to beautiful women, and his brother's sunglasses fell onto the ground. He bent over to pick them up, tapped Lucas's leg to let him know that there were sunglasses back there, Lucas, disoriented, stepped backwards directly onto the sunglasses, crushing them. Lucas apologized and said that he would pay for the sunglasses. He now regrets his drunken decision to offer to pay, saying that he thinks that his brother should be responsible for his possessions, that he thinks that his brother should be responsible for his possessions, that it was unreasonable to expect him not to step backwards based on a tap on the leg, and his brother should have understood that by wearing sunglasses out to a bar at night,

they might have been damaged. He says, what should he do? Who pays for the sunglasses? So you're saying this guy initially said, he initially apologized and said that he would pay for the broken pair of sunglasses while drunk while drunk while inebriated but the next day he decided you know what i'm not sorry changed his mind he should have been taking better care of it a dumb tap on the leg does not warn me of anything and uh and i'm glad i stepped on them he back his apology. I don't want to use the term Indian giver because it's not, it's a little offensive and insulting, but I will say a Native American apologizer. You can't take it back.

Because you know what? He was wrong. I mean, he's not wrong, but he is wrong. He crushed them. You know, that's the way it goes. You break someone else's stuff. The gentleman makes reparations. Unless the stuff you break belongs to a Native American and the gentleman is Andrew Jackson.

Then you get your picture on the $20 bill. But no one wants to go down in history that way. Let me tell you an eerily similar story. A long time ago, back when I had very little money, I was staying at my friend Elizabeth Gilbert's house. This was a long time ago before Elizabeth Gilbert became famous the world over for writing Eat, Pray, Love. And she didn't have a whole lot of money either. I had just bought my first pair of prescription sunglasses.

They cost me real dollars for me at that time. Real money. $300. It's still real money. Do you know what I'm saying? And I stupidly, admittedly, left them out at her house overnight. We were visiting overnight at her house in the country. And her dog chewed them up. Now, she didn't order her dog to chew them up. And she apologized. And you know what she did? She offered to pay for them. And it was the right thing to do. I couldn't accept. But she did the gentlewomanly thing in that case. And I did the gentlemanly thing by refusing. And I think that if both brothers treat each other like gentlemen, they'll be happier. So maybe if the brother says,

you know what, I'm sorry, let me pay for those sunglasses. Maybe the other brother will say, You know what? I'm sorry. Let me pay for those sunglasses. Maybe the other brother will say, don't worry about it, bro. I got this. Is your prediction that if things proceed in exactly that fashion, Lucas and his brother will become bestselling authors? It's the only possible outcome. Well, Judge Hodgman, relax for a moment as I return to the courtroom and begin the proceedings. Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, snob versus slob. John brings the case against his wife, Lisa.

He works in I.T. and wears T-shirts, jeans and Crocs to work. He says this is how his colleagues dress on a daily basis. Lisa counters that he should dress for the job he wants and that the clothes he wears now don't reflect his professionalism and don't look good. She says he should put the best version of himself forward. So who will emerge victorious? Snob or slob? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom.

Thank you very much, Bailiff Jesse. Would you please swear in the complainant and defendant? Certainly. John, Lisa, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. Yes, I do. Do you swear to abide by truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? So help you, God or whatever. I do. Yes, I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his only legal expertise comes from owning a suit that he claims makes him look like Perry Mason?

Yes. Absolutely. You may be seated. Thank you. I didn't hear I didn't hear anyone sitting down. Judge Hodgman, do you not know that we add the sounds of people standing up and sitting down in post? I'm too busy researching matters of law to actually listen to my own podcast. By matters of law, do you mean the finer points of the Dune universe?

Well, intergalactic law is very complicated and based on thousands of years of post-Butlerian jihad precedent that I need to know cold before I hear any of these cases. Which brings me to this nerd. John? Yes. You feel you're getting nagged by your fiance. Your fiance, right? Right, right. We're not married. We're just engaged. I'm taking a moratorium on hearing the cases from married people because too many people on Twitter complained about this turning into a podcast of the marriage ref. So I just want nitpickers, listen up. These people are not yet married, and depending on what happens here, they may never will be. John, what is your complaint? I dress in clothes I feel that are appropriate for work.

I dress in normally a T-shirt and jeans and some just tennis shoes. And it's a programming job. So the other co-workers also wear clothes such as this or even worse clothes. Some people wear dragon t-shirts and things like that. And my fiance thinks I should dress in a suit to work or in nice dress clothes. But nobody I work with does that. I like how you immediately threw your coworkers under the bus. There's nothing more amusing to me than nerd on nerd violence. But Lisa, you are the defendant. You've been accused by your fiance with one E of being a terrible nag. How do you respond?

John's right that he dresses in a way that is appropriate for his job if his job was a clam digger because his pants are no less than four inches above his ankle. Lisa, can I just interrupt you for a second there? Sure. That was pretty rough. A clam digger. I was all set to hear a reasonable argument, and I turned to John and go, you're right, John, she is a terrible shrew of a woman.

And then you come out accusing him of being a clam digger. Wow. All right. Well, he's got a professional job, and I understand that some of his coworkers wear similar clothing and dragon T-shirts and other anime-type graphic tees, but he comes home and makes fun of those people at the end of the day. John, let me ask you some questions. And if you think I'm being mean to your fiancé, just relax. I'm going to go really – I'm going to be really hard on you. Oh, okay. Because I have strong feelings about this.

So what is your job exactly? It is a programming job for a statistical software company. When you took this job, did they discuss a dress code with you? There was no dress code discussed. It's not like you're being told to not dress nicely. You looked around. You saw your coworkers. They all looked like garbage.

You saw some dragon t-shirts. You're like, I am not those nerds. I'm going to dress like a different kind of infant. Is that right? Well, I was told that we are a relaxed atmosphere at work. That just means that people are drunk most of the time. Did you take any career counseling in college? This is what they tell you.

All right. Now, you've provided some evidence. You sent me a photograph, which we've now put on the internet for people to look at, of your standard outfit that you might wear. And what I'm seeing here, and I'm going to describe what I see. It is a red t-shirt, a New Orleans t-shirt. You have some ankle socks, cargo shorts. Boy, oh boy.

And some shoes. A couple of things I noticed here. First of all, we don't need to say anything about cargo shorts, do we? I mean, that would be a cliche beyond cliches for me to make fun of you for wearing cargo shorts. I think that it goes without saying that you should take those shorts and burn them. Okay. Right. I mean, this is how you chose to present yourself to me. Yes. Yeah. When you describe yourself, you're like, I wear jeans. Okay, fine. You send me a picture of cargo shorts. That's the choice you make? Are you trying to prejudice the court against you? I was actually wearing jeans at the time, and the rest were dirty, so I could not present any jeans.

You're just digging yourself a deeper clam hole, frankly, you clam digger. The problem was I had to take a picture of the cargo shorts because I was wearing my other pants. Set aside the cargo shorts. It goes without saying that those should be destroyed as soon as possible. And I think you will find it very easy to destroy them because they probably come from Old Navy. What I want to point out that I notice here, at least I don't know if you've seen this picture. I can look it up. I haven't seen it. Just trust that I'm describing it to you accurately. Oh, I'm sure first of all first of all what i see is that you have put your sneakers you've taken you've laid this all out on your bed as though like this is what an infant does to get ready for the next day right they lay out all their little clothes in the bed

for the next day or whatever and then but you put your shoes on the bed. I wanted to show you the entire outfit. Yeah. I would have accepted two separate photographs. Lisa, I'm going to ask you some questions now. Sure. Is this what he actually wears? Some days it's worse, but I guarantee he sent you that picture because he genuinely thought that was an excellent outfit. The best outfit in his closet.

So it can get worse than cargo shorts. Yeah. Well, John has this pair of jeans and I know he still has them that he's probably had since sophomore year of high school. And he split the knee of them up about six inches and not in a cool distressed jeans kind of way. He has nice clothes. We've gone out shopping together. We bought him a few dress shirts and nice dress pants. They just collect dust on the side of his closet. So there's no excuse that he doesn't have the clothes.

Okay, I got it, honey. I get that picture, dear. I get this weird picture of the Lockhorns, that cartoon from the Lockhorns. I don't know why that, but like, you know, this horribly dysfunctional couple where the husband is just like, she's talking about it. And we have nice shirts, and he just puts on his headphones and starts listening to Dark Side of the Moon or something. Takes them off. She's still going. I did not expect this to happen, guys.

Let me tell you, this is why I stopped listening to cases from married couples or even soon-to-be married couples, because I always find in favor of the woman, of the wife, because husbands are dummies. I did not expect you to be so full-throated in your arguments against your fiancé, Lisa least I'm kind of impressed. Because I don't think you're necessarily wrong, but we'll get on to this in a second. John, what are you wearing right now? Right now I'm wearing a collared short-sleeved shirt.

No, wrong. And jeans. Wrong. Jesse, I don't think that they understand. From now on, I want everyone to understand. When they come to my courtroom, they have to dress nice. You know what they have to dress? They have to follow the same dress code as the Magic Castle.

What's the dress code of the Magic Castle, John? Oh, you don't know the dress code of the Magic Castle, Jesse? I'm surprised. We're talking about jacket, shirt, and tie for men, no sneakers, and evening wear for ladies, preferably gowns, but a matching suit, a woman's suit with jacket and pants, matching. And obviously no sneakers for the ladies either. And also some doves up your shirt. Doves up your shirt, and obviously I prefer gloves, please.

That's for matters of hygiene. Lisa, you have a job, right? I work in marketing research. Okay. And and do you have a dress code? No, we don't have a dress code at our company. But would you say that your your dress, your personal dress code for yourself is a little bit more formal than John's? Yeah, I would say that, you know, I'm just starting out my career and want to make sure that I make a good impression. So, you know, some days I come in on jeep with

jeans if there's not a client in the office or it's a slow day. But the majority of the time, I'm wearing dress pants and a button down in my shoes. Sure. Well, and you said in or at least John represented you as saying in the original complaint that was sent to me, that you would like him to dress for the job that he wants, not the job that he has. You've heard that saying before, right? So what is the job that John wants? it's hindering maybe some way for him to get a management role. And there's no way to know if it's being, if it's holding him back, but I guess it's certainly a good thing to try to dress up to see if it is. And how would you, how would you prefer that he,

that he dressed going to the office? Yeah, the company he works for is really casual, but I would say anything that he feels comfortable in that is within three seasons of fashion or classic and that fits him in an appropriate way. That's all I'm asking for. Do his clothes not fit him? No, absolutely not. Pants are too short. His shirt sleeves are way too short. And when he washes them, he bakes them in the dryer so that whatever size he bought them at, now they're three sizes smaller than that. Why don't you want to wear nice clothes and look good, John?

Well, wearing nice clothes also involves ironing the clothes in the morning, which is a very long process. Oh, so your defense is you're lazy? Okay, I understand. Let me ask you this question, John. Do you realize that you are not yet married? Yes. Not that anyone should feel that this is permitted once they are married, but certainly not before they are married. It is still imperative that you look good and present yourself nicely to the woman that you hope to marry. And you have to make it clear that you take what she says seriously, or this whole thing is going to fall apart. And then where will you be? You'll be a dumpy

dude in cargo shorts working with some guy in a unicorn shirt. Do you make a salary? Do they pay you money for this job? Yes, they pay me money for this sizes? I'm a large, and I wear 32, 34 pants. What's your jacket size? I'm not sure of that either. What's your hat size? What's your hat size? I have a fairly large head. Yeah, but you don't know, do you?

No. A gentleman should know his sizes. Right, Jesse? Absolutely. Yeah, but you don't know, do you? No. A gentleman should know his sizes. Right, Jesse? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Seven and three-eighths, my friend. Thank you. Seven and three-quarters for me. You need to know your collar size. You need to know your shirt sleeve length, jacket size, waist inseam, shoe size.

Do you have shoes? Yes, yes, I have shoes. Okay, so you know that size, right? Yes. I'm ready to make my ruling. I'm going to go into the chambers and think this through, and then I'll come back. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. John, I have to ask you, do you understand that there's a middle ground between wearing Crocs or cargo shorts and pants that are four inches too short for your legs

and wearing a business suit or as you put it in the email clothes that you have to pick up at the laundromat i realize but at the same time i would like to dress similar to my colleagues do you think that it's possible to dress similar to your colleagues in terms of level of formality without dressing similar to your colleagues in terms of terrifying people of the opposite gender? And me. I understand slightly where you're coming from. Lisa, do you think that this is about more than just how he presents himself at work? I wonder if this is about you essentially being embarrassed to be seen with the man that you love. Well, I will say it looks a little strange when he comes and takes me out to lunch and he's in torn up jeans that are way too short form and ratty sneakers. And I'm dressed up for a day's work.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom. Thank you for rising. You may be seated. This is a tough one because on the one hand, it's clear that John is horribly dressed, though not necessarily within the context of his office, just within the context of the rest of the world and for his marriage that is coming up. But at the same time, Lisa is being very mean. I'm sorry, Lisa, but it's true.

You called him a clam digger right from the start. You should leave that stuff to me. But I'm going to chalk that up to the fact that Lisa has very high standards for the man that she loves and expects him to meet them. Here's what I have to say about dress codes. Lisa, when you were having

some technical difficulties there, I explained that from now on, I want everyone who visits my court to follow the same dress code here as they would at Los Angeles' Magic Castle. The dress code at the Magic Castle, which is the headquarters of the International Brotherhood of Magicians, is very clear. Men must wear shirts, ties, jackets, dress pants, and shoes, no sneakers.

Women must wear evening attire, which they define as cocktail dresses, gowns, or matching female, feminine pantsuits, plus also shoes and no sneakers. And I know that you're probably already wearing that, Lisa. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I know that John isn't. Let me tell you a story about the Magic Castle. I was invited there once. It's a members-only club. I was invited there once

when I was in Los Angeles by a member. I checked their dress code and realized I had no problem with anything. I had the shirt, the tie, I had a suit, I had cufflinks, I looked good, but I had been traveling the country in this suit, in this very nice attire, wearing sneakers. Now, wearing sneakers with suits is not too uncommon a thing to see nowadays, but it certainly had not reached the Magic Castle. And I was barred from entry as a result, such that I had to call my friend who had invited me and said, look, they're not letting me into their dumb magic club wearing my very nice suit and tie because I'm wearing nice clean sneakers.

And my friend said, don't worry, I'll bring you an extra pair of my shoes. And so I had to wait there and I watched the magicians go in one after another. And do you know what? Those magicians looked terrible. They looked like total dummy slobs. They were wearing a tie, yes, but it was a piano tie. They were wearing a jacket, yes, but it was like a Don Johnson jacket from Miami Vice.

They were wearing pants, yes, but were those pants dockers? Yes, again, they were dockers. With pleats, no less. Were they wearing shoes? Sure, like jazz shoes from dance class. I even saw a man going in there wearing Mork from Orc Suspenders. Now I get it, magicians are eccentric.

They're always dressing crazy with the turbans and the top hats and what have you. But this was wrong. The dress code was having the exact opposite effect of what it should be doing. It was keeping me, a nicely dressed person, out and allowing weird nerds in. I was very upset about it. And finally my friend came with the shoes that were too big for me.

I think I wear a nine because I know my sizes. I think these were like 11. And I sort of shuffled in ridiculously. And they asked me to whisper the password into the owl that opens the secret door that lets me go into the magic castle. And you know what I whispered? Are you happy now, you stupid owl? I don't look like a magician. I look like a well-dressed clown.

Now, I tell you this story because I learned two things from it. One, a dress code, stated or de facto, is meaningless unless it is applied with taste. At your office, John, may be casual or dumpy or, you know, I got this out of a thrift store or I shop only in the geekery section of Etsy. That does not mean that you or any one of those people should look bad. Obviously, your clothes should always be clean, neat, and tidy without rips or tears in them because you are not in high school anymore. Also, your clothes should fit properly. Even if you were going to do T-shirt and jeans, which is very common, I think, in a lot of your nerdy professions these days. I think simple human standards suggest that you should update your wardrobe once a decade, at least. Now, I would also advise that you should

go even more formal. Why? Well, you say you already have the job that you want to have, therefore, why should you dress for it? Yes. But you're not just auditioning for a better job. You are currently auditioning for a lifetime with Lisa, who clearly thinks you dress like a child because you do. But here is the thing, not just for your marriage, but for yourself, John, you should go formal. You're 26 years old. You're still a child. I realize you're youth, you're youth. Okay. But you will find that it is more, you will find that it is easier to travel through life more formal than you need to be. It is always easier to look good in formal wear than it is to look good in casual wear. Because even though they look dumb, those dumb magicians look better than you.

A piano tie is better than no tie at all. You will never go wrong by dressing too fancy. Now, I now never wear sneakers with suits anymore. Also, I own a tuxedo and I wear a tuxedo a lot of times when a tuxedo is not called for. And what do you think happens to me? Do you think I am mocked? Do you think people call into podcasts making snide comments about me like you do your co-workers who wear dragon t-shirts? No. If people notice that I'm wearing it at all, they will say I look great and I will feel happy. And you should live your life the same way. The fact is a properly fitted suit, tie, jacket, or semi-formal wear, properly fitted and tasteful, will be practically invisible. It will not stand out.

People will only notice that you look good and you will feel good because of it. And that is what you deserve out of your life. You deserve to feel better than you obviously do wearing cargo shorts ever. Whether or not you want a promotion, you will command more respect because you are not dressed like an infant and you will go farther because you do not secretly hate yourself. Like anyone who wears a unicorn t-shirt, you are going to get married soon.

When are you going to get married? Um, October. This is the perfect time for you to have a suit made for you. You are right. Be a good wedding present. From his fiance. That's right. Right.

Now, you know me. I get my suits made at Duchess, a custom-made suit and shirt little organization out of Portland, Oregon, run by some lovely women with tattoos. And I highly recommend them. But even if you were to go around town, I bet there's some wonderful tailors and clothiers there in, in the, in, are you in the triangle?

Yes. Okay. Around there. I'm sure there's some wonderful men's clothiers around there. Would make you one heck of a suit that you will want to wear all the live long day because there is nothing better than walking around in clothing that has been made for you and fits properly and is not ripped and has no room in it for cargo.

So that is my sentence to you. You go get that suit made and buy some other clothes and start wearing them. And Lisa, my sentence to you is you buy the suit for him and, uh, and, and give, and give him,

give him a chance to learn and discover this stuff, this stuff for himself, because you don't want to be going into this marriage, calling your husband a clam digger. That's just. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. That's our time for another Judge John Hodgman podcast. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, for MaximumFun.org. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. Hey, next week, the MaxFunDrive starts. It's when you get the opportunity to support this podcast and all of the podcasts at MaximumFun.org through donations. We've got all kinds of amazing thank you gifts, all kinds of cool stuff. You can find out more online at MaximumFun.org starting February 28th.

And, of course, on the next two episodes of Judge John Hodgman. They're going to be doozies. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, email us at Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. That's Hodgman at Maxim us at hodgman at maximumfund.org. That's hodgman at maximumfund.org. And be sure to include the details of your case and how we can contact you by phone. See you next week on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.