Judge John Hodgman - Sole Benefishiary

Episode Date: October 29, 2025

Greg and Melinda live on a sailing catamaran, but life at sea isn’t busy enough for Melinda. She wants a new hobby, and she wants that hobby to be fishing. Greg says fishing is boring and gross. He'd rather just buy fish from local vendors. Who’s right? Who’s wrong?Please consider donating to Al Otro Lado. Al Otro Lado provides legal assistance and humanitarian aid to refugees, deportees, and other migrants trapped at the US-MX border. Donate at alotrolado.org/letsdosomething.We are on TikTok and YouTube! Follow us on both @judgejohnhodgmanpod! Follow us on Instagram @judgejohnhodgman!Thanks to reddit user u/acone419 for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at reddit.com/r/maximumfun! Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Join at $5 a month at maximumfun.org/join!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff, Jesse Thorne. This week, sole beneficiary. Greg brings the case against his wife, Melinda. Greg and Melinda live on a sailing catamaran, but life at sea isn't busy enough for Melinda. She says they need a new hobby. She wants that hobby to be fishing. Greg thinks it's a bad idea. He says, says fishing is boring and gross. Live aboard sailing involves a lot of upkeep and chores. Greg doesn't want to add cleaning fish to that list. Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. This day after we were committed to go around the islands, the fog rolled back in thick.

Typically, after rounding the second Babson Island, the course back home was a straight line, heading off 90 degrees, but now the breeze was right on the nose. I took the lead, told the others to follow close behind. We had to make five tacks to get back, and for each tack, I used the ledges at my guide. I felt very lucky it was low tide, and they were visible. Those ledges were like bases on a baseball field, guiding me back home through these familiar ways. waters. The other two boats followed me like ducklings, and we found our moorings with no problem. Paleiff, Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you,

God, or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he insists on doing that voice? I do. I do. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. The voice insists on itself. Greg and Melinda, you may be seated. Where are you, anyway? We are just outside Boston, Massachusetts. Just outside Boston, Massachusetts, at the PRX studios, well, hello. And those of you watching on YouTube know that Greg and Melinda are already seated.

So remain seated, if you will, for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I referenced? As I also sat in the courtroom, I entered the courtroom, but I was. was already here seated. Go ahead. Greg, you guessed first. Well, I'm not sure. I'm going to hear it again. No, that's okay. Okay. No, please, quit on hearing that voice. I'm going to guess it's from one of your substack readings of Moby Dick. I'm not sure which one. So I'm just going to guess my favorite week that I've got from you, which was May 10th, 2024. Well, you really had this prepared. Scrapple and scrabble. It's one of my, one of my favorite one of your

subtext. I'm going to guess that one. You're referring to hodgeman.substack.com, my newsletter, which also has a secret room in it. And if you, uh, if you enter the secret room, you get to hear me reading the entirety of the text of the novel Moby Dick or the whale by Herman Melville in a terrible main accent, just like the one I used when I entered this courtroom. That is correct. And now, Melinda, you have heard Greg's guess. My guess. What is your guess? Was Captain Dave Marciano of Wicked Tuna? Oh, that's very flattering.

Wicked Tuna is one of the, is a reality show about tuna fishers in Boston, correct? In Massachusetts. Yes. I don't watch it. It's no, it's no Jacob Knowles' YouTube page. You guys know who Jacob Noles is? I don't. No.

Oh, boy, this guy's blowing up. Fifth Generation Lobsterman and YouTuber. Guy's blowing up. I was doing my terrible imitation of a main accent, but the person who I was quoting does not have such an accent. I was just putting a little extra sea-salty sauce on it because I enjoy talking that way.

And I enjoy how much it annoys my friend Jesse. But that's an affection annoyance, I hope. Indeed. The point is, that quote was from a short essay called My Biggest Disaster and What It Taught Me by Jane Allfeld. Now, Greg, Melinda, you know who Jane Allfeld is? I do not. No.

That was my sailing teacher in Maine. Uh-oh. Well, really, my wife was a whole human being in our own right sailing teacher. I did not actually get to take the course with Jane, but all I ever heard about when my wife was taking the course was the whole human being on her right was Jane, Jane, Jane, Jane, and Gretchen, both of them, wonderful, wonderful sailors and incredible teachers. And I've gotten to know both of them. And I did take the course, and I've learned a lot from Jane since.

Actually, I did study directly with Jane because we went out on the merry day together. But that's a different story. Jane's an incredible sailing teacher. And in summertime life, in regular life, she is a computer programmer and consultant. But every summer, she goes up to our town in coastal Maine to teach at the wooden boat school. and she's truly one of the most I'm going to say something to you I hate sailing, hate it

I learned it out of obligation to the world that I lived in and to my wife as a whole being in her own right who wanted to learn and I wanted to learn with her and lots of anxiety and one catastrophically destroyed shin later because sailing's very painful things are bobbing up and hitting you in the shins all the time bad news also i don't like healing i don't like feeling like i'm going to go into the ocean

but i loved learning sailing from jane because jane was so calm is so calm and i i highly recommend that you look into her work on a website called offcenter harbor dot com short a couple of short essays about sailing there that are really lovely and that whole website offcenter harbor dot com if you want to understand the world that has kidnapped me and turned me into the weirdo that I am today, a guy who's going to fake a main accent for no reason other than my own enjoyment and other things. You should go to offcenter harbor.com. Can't recommend it more highly.

Essays and videos about boats. It's just boat. It's just boat stuff. Hate sailing. I hate sailing. Greg and Melinda. But I do like boats. I'm a little bit boat.

mad and i want to hear all about this boat you're living on since neither of you got it right we're going to hear this case who brings the case to my court i do maritime justice today on judge john hodgeman i do says gregg gregg you and your wife was a whole you mean right melinda live on a sailing catamaran is that correct that's correct and right now you're on land outside of Boston at PRX and outside of Boston, Massachusetts. But normally, that's because you live at sea. We do. We rented a car so we could drive up here and be in the studio. Well, do not think we're going to reimburse you for that expense.

Right. Right now, other than today, you normally don't have to worry about anything on land, which just our two children, they're sophomores and seniors in college, which is why we're doing this now again. Yeah, but let's be, let's be honest, when you're out there in international waters. those kids don't even exist anymore to you, right? They can take care of themselves. They're doing well. Let's be serious.

You've forgotten all about them. When you're out there, how far out do you go into the Atlantic? We've been across the Atlantic twice. What the heck? Yeah, we've been across the Caribbean twice. We've been up and down the Caribbean. Circumnavigated the Mediterranean. Mediterranean.

Went up and down the East Coast now. when we're planning on early next year going through the Panama Canal and drying the South Pacific. What are you running from? Yeah, really. Corporate medicine. The political climate.

Corporate medicine and the political climate are both. Both worth fleeing. Yes. I would advise staying north of Venezuela, however. Yes. Yes. We will. All right.

So first of all, for folks who are listening, I call them landlubbers. What is a catamaran? A catamaran is a newer type of sailboat, at least in the West, that has two holes. Hulls, H-U-L-L-S. That are skinnier and more narrow than a regular sailing monoholes hole. And then it's connected. Yes. And then it's connected by like a bridge between the two holes with a cabin on top called a saloon.

That's sort of the main living area where your galley and your eating areas, your bridge and everything. And then the holes are where the births, the bedrooms, and the heads of the bathrooms are located. So they don't heal, which means you might like them. Now explain what healing is for folks who don't know. For a model hole, just as a single hole, there's a weight underneath the main hole that helps balance the ship. So when the winds are blowing hard and the sails are generating a lot of lift, the boat will lean one way or the other. It's not even when it's not even when the winds are blowing hard, even a little bit. Yeah, it heals over and it can be 20, 30 degrees sometimes.

I mean, and it's kind of disconcerting. And everyone is telling John Hodgman, is he white knuckles gray. rips the gunnels, it's not going to go under. I mean, probably. You're not going to capsize, but it's like, how do you know? Right. So a catamaran has the two holes, so that when it starts to lean, one hole gets pushed more into the water, which increases the lift. Then the other hole acts as a counterbalance to keep everyone.

So we might heal three or four degrees, even with pretty strong winds. And it's, and then catamaran's are faster than monoholes because we have. less hydrodynamic drag because of the smaller holes. We had to be careful here, Jesse, because before you joined us, I got in on the tail end of a conversation that Greg and Melinda were having with Jennifer Marmer.

Explain how cold it's been and how both their holes have been very cold. They're like, yeah, our holes have been like 60 degrees lately. It's right. I'm like, what, you're a hole in the hulls. Holes.

Holes. Your holes are cold. Cold hulls over there. And so, right. Healing means, all right, so there are going to be some nautical terms, and we'll work, do not be alarmed listener and viewer at YouTube, Judge John Hodgman Pot, we'll work through all the maritime vocab as we get through it. Okay, and so you have lived at sea before, correct?

Yes. Yes. 2015 to 2017, we took our nine and 11-year-old kids with us and sailed. Yeah, to sea, and that's when we sailed the Caribbean, went across the Atlantic, the med and then crossed back to the Caribbean in those two years. Then they wanted to go to high school on land, which we get. So we put them through high school. We moved on to, as land gets, we moved to Nebraska.

And got our kids through high school, got them in college. And then now we're back on the sea. As soon as you were empty nest, you're like, it was fun sailing. It would be better without kids. Let's go. That is correct. Same boat both times? Same model.

Okay. We did sell the boats. They require a lot of maintenance when they live on the ocean. So we sold our first boat, and then we bought another one recently in the exact same kind of boat. Same kind, just a little bit newer, but the same model. Tell me about the exact same kind of, what's the make and model of this? Is it a Nissan Centra? It's a leopard 48.

And so 48 means it's 48 feet long. It's a sailing catamaran, and it is named Jerry. The Intrepid Jerry. Oh, excuse me, the Intrepid Jerry. Yes, he's very brave. And there's only one of him, so. And your previous boat was named... The Amazing Marvin.

Marvin. So if you want to see a picture of it, and Jesse, you can also look at the evidence right here. All of the evidence is available on our show page as well as on our social media. Showpage is Maximumfund.org, of course, and our social media is Judge John Hodgman on Instagram. And if you're watching right now, you are seeing it right now on our YouTube. at Judge John Hodgman Pod. There's the intrepid Jerry right there. And here's another photo of the aft deck, it looks like, to me.

That's actually the front cockpit. That's the front of the boat. And not all catamaranes have a seating area there. Usually it's more angled and you can't get a nice seating area. But that's one of the reasons we bought this particular kind of boat is you can just sit out there in the evenings and watch your sunset when you're at anchor and it's a really nice area. So that's the front of the boat and I called it the back of the boat because I'm an idiot is what you're saying. I don't know my aft from my four is what you're saying.

It's an unusual feature, the one that we really like in the leopard family. Yeah, normally when you see a sitting area like that, it's to the rear of the boat. That's the hangout area. Correct. Because the front of the boat, the aft, usually it's just one point on a, on a, on a single-hulled boat. Yes. All right, so we know what a catamaran is.

Can you tell me what a sloop is? So a sloop is the rig that we have. So are kind of set up in terms of how many masts and giant poles sticking out of the boat. And so sloop is a single-masted sailing boat. Right. Yes. So we have a big 75. foot mast or 75 feet above the water and then we have a jib or a genoa a smaller sail that goes on

the front of the boat how do you like the cut of that is it well cut it's well cut i call it jibby and a jib would be a stasel right because it's not affixed to a mast but a line correct it's it's it's a furling jib so it furles around oh i mean obviously it's a furling yeah i do remember You don't know if I explain to us that it was a furling jib. Yeah, I mean, come on. Most people's jib. It's not a hanked jib. No, I'm looking at this right now.

What fool would say that was a hanked jib? Yeah. Only a real dullard would say that was a hanked jib. All right. Well, okay, so thank you very much for allowing me to quiz myself and revive my trust and my ability to remember things. But one thing I remember is you said that you are rather late in life sailors. How did this begin for you?

This began, so I'm a pilot as well. I fly just my own small airplanes. So when we were younger before kids, we flew our small four-seat airplane over to the Bahamas. It was a common place, like the first place to fly out of the country. Well, obviously, whenever I'm flying my four-seat airplane, I'm going to the Bahamas. I mean, it's a great place to go. I have a six-seater, but I get it. Yeah.

So we flew over to the Bahamas, and we met these crazy. people that live on their boats. And they let us stay on their boat and took us for a sale and we took them for a flight. And we had never, we both grew up in the Midwest. So we weren't cognizant of the fact that people

lived on sailboats and sailed around. And there's toilets on them. Yeah. And kitchens. Yeah. So we found out about it and that sort of planted a seed. So the next time we went back, we went our plane, we also met with some more cruisers. And we

decided to charter a catamaran in the Bahamas. We had sailed with my stepfather on his small lake catamaran before, so we kind of knew the basics of sailing, but we wanted to see if we could live on a sailboat. Greg, may interrupt you for a moment? Yes. I don't want to hear anything about lake catamaraning again. I agreed. Thank you.

Jesse Thorne gives two thumbs down. Lake catamaraning. So we chartered this boat. with a skipper. Where do you want to go? The other side of the lake? Lots of attacking. Usually they just come back to where they left.

Yeah, let's call the middle of the lake and then come back. Look, look, if you want to be on a lake, and I'm not necessarily talking about a great lake here. I'm just talking about a regular lake. Yeah, just a small lake. If you want to be on a lake, that's great. Go on either a canoe or a pontoon party boat. That's what belongs on a lake. Yes.

Okay, so you met all these cruisers. You were thinking, and you decided this would be a great time for a us to drop out of society with our kids. Well, so my wife is a neurologist, and she was pretty burned out. Yeah. And we went on this charter and for 10 days and loved it, really had a great time. The kids, kids loved it. We loved it.

So we thought we could do this. So we started taking sailing lessons at the American Sailing Association School in Minnesota. We were living in Minnesota at the time. Yeah. So Lake Minnetonka. I know. I know. I know.

I know geography. I know what you're sailing on. Lake Superior is a big lake. We did take our advanced monolole and cruising catamaran classes on Lake Superior. Well, that's fine. In October, when it was 33 degrees. Yeah. I mean, if you want some cold holes, go to Lake Superior.

Yeah. So many, so many cold holes. So I'm going to get to the case already. Okay. And ask you what the topic at hand is fishing. Melinda, you want to go through. fishing. Yes.

Greg, you hate fishing. Melinda, why do you want to go fishing on your boat? So, um, uh, on the boat, it works best when you live in a small space, um, in a place that requires a lot of maintenance is that everybody has their own assigned tasks and duties. And Greg is far more multi-talented at handling all of the tasks on the boat than I am. Like he's more capable of doing the plumbing, the, the, the sale planning, the, the, the electrical work, fixing all the stuff that breaks.

So my role has been designated as quartermaster or provisioner. I'm the one that plans the meals, figures out what we have to freeze in the freezer, how often we go to the grocery store. So I'm kind of the hunter-gatherer of the couple. And the ship's doctor. And ship's doctor. That's right. Um, which, which is mostly, you're a neurologist, right?

So I presume you have a little cat's-can machine on board. Exactly. Actually, ship's doctoring ends up being a lot of ear, nose, and throat. Yeah. And a lot less neurology. But so as the person who is, um, in charge of bringing food onto the boat, fishing is something that a lot of other cruisers do and enjoy. and I feel a little inadequate in my crowd not being able to do that.

What kind of fishing are these other cruisers doing that you're trying to keep up with? So a lot of them will troll a line behind the boat or have a rod on the back of their boat. And so when they're underway offshore, they do deep sea fishing and they hope to catch two. tunas and mahis and big old fish. Yeah, those are, look, I don't know. I'm not a fisher person myself, but a tuna is a big fish. It can be, so you let those go. And you bring on this.

Maybe they let you go. Yes. The small to medium size fishes to eat. And I like sushi. He does not. But fish would be a nice. protein to have because we're we're planning to go to the Pacific and there's a gajillion islands out there not all have a big old grocery store on them and so you have to

be a little bit scrappy and finding food and if we could provide our own food for ourselves that would be more you know culturally acceptable too yes economic And more just acceptable. Like we're not coming, you know, from America and going somewhere and taking. We're actually being part of the culture. That all sounds reasonable to me, Greg. Why don't you want Melinda to be happy? I don't know if we have enough time for all the reasons.

I don't want her to be happy. I just, I grew up in a rural part of Missouri where, like, everyone fishes my brother. is a big fisherman, and I just found it, I've always found it tedious and gross, and I don't particularly like eating fish. Tell me more. I would always bring a book with me when I would go to fish things. I would read my book instead of fish, and so I got made fun of a lot. What would your kin fish for in the shoemies state?

Oh, catfish. Catfish a lot. Okay, so that is gross. Those are disgusting fish. Oh, yeah. I mean, they're bottom feeders. Would they noodle for them? Yes.

I have a, my brother-in-law is a champion catfish noodler. Do you know what catfish noodling is, Jesse? That's where you stick your hand in a hole and hope the catfish chomps onto it. Is that correct? Well, and then you pull out the catfish and throw it in a bucket and then eat it later. Oh, yeah. No, I left out the bucket part. You use your hand and forearm as both bait and pole.

Yes. You shove your hand into a hole. And I mean hole here, not hole, into a cold hole and hope that a cat, or maybe a, maybe a, maybe a, probably a warm hole. It's definitely dark. Like a mouth temperature hole and then get a mouth on your. Yeah. But that's not what Melinda wants to do. Melinda wants to be out on the open sea.

Yeah. Fishing for leaping beautiful, sparkling marlins. such. That's heroic. Uh-huh. And expensive. It's not like you're noodling weird cousins in Missouri. This is, this is ocean stuff here, good stuff, heroic stuff. This is glamour fishing. Which one might argue is much more difficult than sticking your hand in a hole and pulling up a fish. What do you mean? It's a deep sea fishing to me seems more like the grad school of fishing. Like you would start on a pond or a lake getting small fish. And then once you're good at that, you could go up and start doing it on the...

You're saying Melinda isn't strong enough to haul up an ocean-going fish yourself. That's a big part of it because... And you don't want to help. He doesn't want to help. He doesn't want to help. Melinda could do whatever hobbies she wants to do. Except this one. Whatever she wants.

Except for this one. Except for this one. Because she can't do this one by herself. These are big fish. So these are fish that I would have to haul up on deck and beat to death with a fish bat. You don't have to beat to death. You, you, you, you, I would like to know, small scale nuclear weapons. It's, it's, uh, it's, uh, ecujima.

Okay. It's, it's a way that you just take an all and you poke it through its brain. Okay. Very little guts come out. I don't want to do that either. And then the fish immediately seizes up and it relaxes all its muscles so that the meat is nice and tender. And then you take a long wire and you punch it through its spinal cord. Yeah, go on.

To paralyze it more to keep the meat tender before you bleed it out. Please continue. And before you bleed it out. Can I just say something? This is a family pot. Well, it's a family tolerant podcast. But I'm going to need to talk about some grown-up stuff right now. Greg, why don't you want to have sex with your wife right now in the studio?

Because this is incredible. See, I just don't. That does not sound fun to me. I don't want to stick an all in a fish's brain. And I don't. What doesn't sound like you have to? It sounds like Melinda's ready to do it right now. Now.

Yeah, see, I would do this part. So what you're saying is. I know the anatomy. I got a I'm a method. Ecojima method is indeed, as Melinda describes. Dispatching fish, inserting a spike into the brain to cause immediate death, rupturing the spinal cord with a wire, shilling the fish immediately to maintain high quality. It prevents stress-induced hormone release and muscle contractions, thus leading to improved flavor, texture,

and in a significantly longer shelf life case you want to sell your fish. Yes. I mean, honestly, Greg, this sounds pretty good even if you just develop sea enemies of any kind. Not to be confused with the enemies. Talking about sea enemies. You have a wife really knows her way around a long wire for the spinal cord. Yeah, for sure. Right.

That's another thing is when we're out on the ocean, then we do scuba dive as well. I kind of have a relationship with the ocean where I don't take anything. from it, and it doesn't take anything from me, and that's worked out for me so far. Except your leavings. Yeah, I mean, what are you doing with your head, not the top of your body? I'm talking about emptying the toilet. That is true. That's true.

That is true. We have things going on the poop deck. We contribute nitrogen and urea to the ocean. Yeah, we're contributing fertilizer to the ocean. Well, so you are, if you are killing a fish and then fileting it and throwing the guts back. That's going to feed fish. It's the natural cycle. And I want to explore with you for a moment.

What about fishing when you were growing up was particularly gross to you? I mean, just I don't like eating fish. I like some white fish, like a halibut or a ma'i-mahy, but like a catfish or a trout or a bass. It's just the whole thing's gross. Lake scales. Lakefish, lake fish, lake fish. Halibut, ocean fish, good fish. And lionfish is pretty good.

And I have fished lionfish in the past one because they're an invasive species and I don't mind doing that. He poked it with a spear and then I made tacos out of it. Yeah, I don't mind that. So, you know, like your whole argument that this is too gross to handle, it doesn't seem like that's, if I may say in this nautical theme case, holding water because you don't mind fish. when it is on your terms and it's not so gross that you won't do it. The lion fishing is different because the lionfish, you have a spear,

the spear goes out, spears a lionfish, and then you take the spear and you shove the lionfish inside of a PVC pipe, and then you pull the spear back out. So the fish stay inside the pipe. And then I give the pipe to Melinda and she cleans the fish and cooks it. We're talking about a lion fish like a lionfish.

Yeah, with the spikes. decorative and spikes and everything. Aquarium, yep. Isn't that what Captain Picard had in his ready room on the USS Enterprise? Yes. Yes. A lion fish. You want to eat Captain Picard's fish and you're cool with that, but you don't eat a tuna that your wife catches in spikes?

Hold on, John. He's cool with shoving it in a tube. Yeah. Right. That's as far as it goes. After that, I don't know what happens. Only a psychopath would go past tube shoving. Are you a, when you say you're a neurologist, have you done brain surgery?

No, myself, no. I do the medical part of the brain medicine. But clearly the idea of stabbing a fish in the brain and then running a wire through its, it's a vertebrae. It's not gross you out. You're okay with that muck. It's, it's, I call up the same things I called up when I was learning medicine in medical school and dissecting cadaver. Right. I am primally grossed out by it, but I get over it because I know there's a goal to be attained by getting through it.

You say you call up the same skill that you called up when you had to dissect cadavers. So what is the, what's your technique for getting over nausea and aversion and gross out? Thinking about how good the food will taste. But I didn't think about that with human beings. Okay. With human beings. That was a very important correction of the last minute there. I like that.

Because muscle does look a little bit like roast beef. Do you think that Melinda can't learn how to fish? I'm certain she can learn how to fish. You want to get back on a boat with this guy? I know. I mean, this is part of why we're doing this now in the empty nester, is being a doctor takes a lot of training, takes a lot of skill, and I was getting kind of stuck in a rut.

And as I'm aging, I'm wondering, can I learn anything else? Can I? Am I capable of doing something new and different and cool? And so being on the boat, you have to call up and learn all these new skills and all these new vocabulary words. and fishing is something, a skill that I could learn as somebody who really doesn't know how the world works at all, except for the human body. It would be a practical skill that I could have. Greg, what are the expenses involved?

So I'm not the best person to ask about this, but I did go on a major sports retailing website, and I put together a list of two rods and reels. lures, all the things that it looked like you would need, including a fish bat to beat them to death and a gaff. You're not going to use the fish bat, Greg. I'm not going to use the fish bat. You need the wire and the ice pick. All right. And then a gaff, a gaff is just a big hook that you use to hook in the fish to pull them on board. You tell me you don't already have a gaff on your cat. I don't have a gaff. No, no, I don't have a gaff. Well, that's just an oversight on your part. But go on. When they get on board, you just garot them. You have to have a gaff to keep the or us away, anyway. Oh, that's not a bad idea. But it was about $2,000 at the end of the day,

and that's my best guess in terms of what I would cost. And for $2,000, I mean, MREs are about $50 for a dozen. So I could buy, you know, four and a half months of MREs for that much money if we ate them three times a day every day. Oh, my God. What kind of. It's a lot of money. I am not getting back on the book. Do you feel your argument breaking down as it comes out of your mouth? Well, we would never buy that many, but that's a lot of money to spend on an alternate food source when we could just use that money to buy food or to buy rations as a backup. I mean, I'm going back to that parable. You give a man of fish eats for a day.

You teach man of fishing fishers for a lifetime. The point is, and woman too, and non-binary people, et cetera, sorry to be gendered there in the parable department. But the point is that, like, if you, if someone learns a skill and invests in the tool, that is a skill that will service them in a sustainable way for a lifetime, or least for the lifetime of those. I mean, I understand that you would have probably a century's worth of MREs if you put enough money into it, but that is not a sustainable, I mean, literally it's plastic and freeze-dried food. I'm not sure it's not a quality of life that I would want. And it's also developing a lot of waste. Well, that's primarily a backup. I mean, my original plan is still to buy food from the people who fish on the islands if we want to buy fish.

But there's no skills required to do that, to buy food from people on the island or make an MRE. There's skill in the fish. And that's partly why it tastes so good is because you made it yourself, like growing your own vegetables, killing your own meat. There's some satisfaction that you get from that that I don't have a lot of outlets for on the boat because I'm not skilled at fixing all the things that are broken. Well, you're welcome to fish all you want to on the boat. I just, you need me to help get the fish on board. Well, now, wait a minute. There is another crew member on board that we haven't discussed.

There is a third crew member. She's not very useful. This exhibit B. She's very useful. Penelope, the morale officer, who happens to be a cat. Yes. You scroll down, Jesse, you can see a photo of Penelope, the morale officer, keeping morale alive. Oh, ho.

Do you agree with Greg's premise that you would need his help to land the fish and spike it? So I would need his help if it was really big. But if it's going to be the kind of fish that I would select. to bring on board, a medium or small one, probably not. What the help would come from, like why he would feel compelled to help me is I am clumsy and falling off the boat. This is what I've always wanted, a clumsy neurologist. Exactly.

Yeah, he's not a surgeon. I walk around people with a hammer and you never know where it's going to go. But he would probably, if I'm fishing, I'm sure he's going to be hovering, making sure I don't fall off the boat, because you have to be on the very back of the boat. It's called the transom, where one step back, you'd be in the drink. So being there to help me, and if the fish got away from me, like preventing me from just following it into the ocean. I'm no deep sea fisher person, but I've seen jaws. and I remember that on the back of his boat, the orca,

he had a special fishing chair where you strap yourself in. We do not have that. No, we don't have that, but we could get it. Think about how many MREs they could buy with strap chair. Oh, my gosh. Strap chair? Strap chair would buy a lot of MREs.

How has it been like living together on a boat again after some years on land? There's definitely a period of adaptation. The first time we went out, we had we did this after melinda went through medical school residency fellowship and then having kids to where and then working her first job so i would see quality awake melinda maybe six hours a week um while while that was going on and then when she burned out and we decided to go on our first sale all of a sudden i was with melinda 24-7 no longer no farther away than 30 feet

and that that was tough on both of us not just me it's just just hard when you go from living parallel but still attached lives to just being completely around each other all the time. Parallel but still attached is a pretty good definition of a catamaran. Yeah, actually, it is. It's a perfect one. Have you tried sleeping in separate holes? Yeah. Why are you bothering with this kitchen and everything?

Why not just have a reflecting pool? Right. Exactly. The world is, if you're in a catamaran, you have two separate bedrooms and the world as you're reflecting. It's so true. Melinda, tell me about the transition from your point of view. It was difficult because not only was I spending a lot of time with my husband, whom, you know, I love and I admire a lot of his qualities. but all the little daily life things, the trivialities, can add up when you're just six feet away from somebody.

And so it was difficult just having him watch me do something every hour and having an opinion about what I was doing. Yeah, this isn't the first time that you have mentioned Greg's hovering. When Melinda works, I'm the primary caregiver for the kids, so I make most of the meals. Not anymore. That's right. And so I had, you know, the kitchen was sort of my area. Melinda would cook on the weekends, but I would cook during the week. So it's been tough to give that up.

We've kind of switched roles when we did that. And so that it is, it's just hard. It happens a lot where a couple will buy a boat and they'll sail off. And then six months later, the boat will be at anchor in a foreign country. and there'll be two flights home to different cities. I mean, it's living on a boat with someone will fracture a relationship or strengthen it. And we were, I mean, ours has certainly been strengthened, which has been nice, but there's a period where it is an adjustment.

And part of the difficulty also is your relationship has to change a little bit because you are on a boat and you do have designations, duties on that boat. It's like your work is your home because he's the captain. I'm first mate. Sometimes things are happening very quickly on the boat. And, you know, he's like, you know, take down the main or whatever and flake the haliard and doing all this stuff. And I'm just supposed to as first mate, it works best.

Okay, I'll go do that. Not argue or should we, should we not flake the hallier just yet? Maybe we need to do this, like have a discussion like you would with your spouse. I just have to say, yes, sir, and go do that? Look, I mean, when you, this is something that I learned very much from Jane and Gretchen in sailing is that, like, there is a reason that everything has a very specific name. And even if it's a silly sounding name, like main soul, miz and mass, whatever, how you're the reef the thing and flake the da, but do. Yes. The reason for it is that you don't want there to be any confusion about what's happening because.

Yeah. Things could go wrong very quickly. You know, like, so you need very specific terminology so that everyone knows, even though it's a little bit hard to learn, it's not like you don't want to be say, no, I meant that rope for you to pull, not this rope. You know, like Howlure does a single, does a single job, which is to raise the main cell, correct? Yep. Correct. Yes. I got it right again. You did. Good. Very good. And similarly, there is a reason to really divide chores or or work requirements on a business. boat because people need to focus on their own department and not be sort of litigating every decision because things have to happen swiftly and securely as you go forward, right? It's like, it's dangerous out there.

It can be. Yes. So what I, but what I keep hearing is that like, okay, so now you're in a new phase of your life where you're on the boat together. And Greg gets to be the captain who tells you to flake the halliard and you say, yes, sir. and you, your job, your department, as it were, as they would say, on below deck is, you know, galley. And that Greg isn't letting you do your job without hovering over you and commenting on it. Yes.

Which I appreciate it. It's probably hard for you, Greg, because you used to run the galley in your land home. I have, and I'm happy to give it up to her. I think I've been better this time out. Are you? Yes. Yes, I am. I'm happy to give it up.

Melinda, it says here in your petition that you need a sphere that you are in charge of. Tell me more about that. Well, as a doctor, I... Highly trained professional. Highly trained professional. I was in a hierarchy. Climsy. But highly trained professional.

My people are like that, though. Neurologists are a bit of a clumsy group. Not reassuring to hear. But not neurosurgeons. Yeah, that's different. I refer to them to go do the coordinated stuff. Okay. But so as a doctor, I was in a very strong hierarchy, and I was in charge.

I had people answering to me nurses. I was an associate professor. I taught medical students. And so I had a very nice set of things that I had power to control and change. On the boat, because I am the least skilled worker, let's just say in the boat world, I don't have something that I can make my own and develop my skills there without any feedback. Right. And I just, I'm missing that kind of, I don't want to say power, but I'm missing that role for me in the world. You want to have, like, just some sort of space where you can drive a spike through something.

Exactly. Exactly. Localize the brain. Melissa, you keep, you mention over and over again that, like, this would be a great way for you guys to eat food sustainably. I mean, except for the fact that Greg doesn't want to eat your stinky's fish. I know. I eat sushi. But that's, set that aside.

Is this something you really need? or do you or something you really want? It's more of a wand. Right. Yeah. Because do you have any other hobbies in this new chapter of your life?

I have some hobbies, some writing hobbies. I'm just saying, you know, you're at sea. Scrimshaw is right there. Right. So it's waiting for you. Yeah. I'm supposed to be painting at some point

learning how to paint and there are some other hobbies that I could get involved with. We have a giant sewing machine on our boat that is ready to be deployed if our sail rips. And in the past, I made courtesy flags. So the flags of the countries that were visiting, I made them myself with a sewing machine. So I could get into sewing again. And what's, so you mentioned these hobbies, but you're kind of like, I should start painting and I did some sewing, but none of them seemed to have really caught on with you. Correct.

Yeah. Glenn has started quite a few hobbies with a lot of enthusiasm, but most of them peter out pretty quickly. I'm a little worried that this might be one of them, and then we've got a bunch of smelly fishing equipment on board that we don't know what to do with. Is there a way to start this hobby out without the $2,000 investment that Greg thinks is necessary? There is, actually, there are kits that are $200 where you just get a fishing line and a lure and a bungee cord and you just strap it to your boat and drag it behind the boat and pull the fish in that way. You don't have to get a rod and a reel and all of the fancy stuff. And this is rated for the kind of fishing that you hope to do in the middle of the Pacific? Yeah.

Okay. A lot of cruisers do it. What would be wrong with something starting out small like that, Greg? I mean, it leads back to the same problem. If it's a big fish, I got to bring it in and hold it while she kills it. And I don't know of the efficacy of these types of things. I mean... Well, I guess there's no way to find out.

Certainly not by trying. Look, a lot of... of cruisers do it. Yeah, a lot of cruisers do it, Greg. You want to be part of this lifestyle or not? I have seen no evidence that cruisers do this. Oh, we've bought fish from other cruisers that caught them. Someone's doing it.

Otherwise, we're going to get the fish. I would, I would suggest, if she does want to try it, I would suggest something that's more of a local fish, fish where we are. So if we get to an atoll, you can take a kid out in a small boat in the dinghy or off of the boat off of our boat and fish off of the boat and then catch fish there and see once the boat has already stopped. Yes, once we are where we are. And we could go out even just for the day and heave too and she could fish off the side then. That would be fine too. What is this we though?

This isn't something that she wants to do with you. This is something she wants to do on her own, right, Melinda? Well, our boat is too big to sail single-handed. You need two people on board at all time. So if we were going to use our Jerry, the intrepid Jerry, to do this. And it's best to catch fish by having the lure move through the water. So you'd want to be sailing. If we're going to use it, he needs to be there and participating with me.

But here's the thing, Judge Hodgman. and something that you may have missed, he doesn't want to stop the boat. Stopping the boat is fine. He's glad to stop the boat, but he doesn't want to stop the boat. Does that make sense? Stopping the boat is fine, but he doesn't want to stop the boat. He's not going to stop the boat, but it would be fine to stop the boat, but he's not going to. He's not going to do it.

He's not going to stop the boat. I think what Greg is suggesting is that when you pull into an anchorage and you pick up a mooring or you anchor or whatever, and you're down for the night, then maybe Melinda can get up early in the morning and fish off the side of the boat when you're already stopped because of necessity. When we are at a place, yes. Or take the dinghy out and fish off the dinghy.

Well, the stopping the boat and fishing would require a rod and reel. Correct. Yeah. Melinda, do you think it's possible? The kind of fishing you want to do is off the, off over the transom, off the after the boat. While it is in motion. Yes.

Trolling, which means you're just connecting a line that floats behind you. You're not standing there with a fish and pole. Correct. The line is connected. It's trolling behind you. Fish will either get it or it won't. Right. And at a certain point, if you've hooked some fish, you want to pull them in.

Yes. How do you pull them in? You wear gloves, and if the boat's not going 12 knots, you can just pull it in. When it's time to pull the fish, Greg would have to stop. We would have to heave to, yeah. You would have to heave two. And then you would pull them in. Do you feel that you could do the kind of fishing that you want to do without Greg ever, he said that he would stop the bubble without having Greg's aid in landing and spiking the fish? I would have to test that out and practice first.

All right. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision. I'm going to go below decks and into my private captain's cabin where I will contemplate my decision and I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Ahoy, hoi, hoi.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Melinda, how are you feeling about your chances in the case right now? I'm feeling very good. Uh, surprising to me because I thought I would totally lose this one. Uh, Greg, how are you feeling? Oh, I don't know. Melinda can learn whatever she wants to and she can do whatever hobbies she wants to,

but it's, it's, I think it's reasonable for her to at least try this and for me to, you know, give it a shot. But I don't know how it's going to go at this point. Melinda, is it possible that I don't know much about this cruising lifestyle that you guys are involved in, but do you think you could get like a temporary shore husband to hauling the bigger fish? Is that part of this? I'm sure she could. I could get on the VHF. I hear it gets cold in those holes, is what I'm saying.

Yeah, I could get on the radio and ask for a fisherman to come on the boat. She'd have a dozen there in 10 minutes. I would. That's a great idea. Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgeman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second. Judge John Hodgman, we are about to go on some thrilling adventures on the road. Separately, not together, but you're headed to London, England. That's right, Jesse.

I'm as surprised as pretty much anyone to be joining my friends at the thrilling adventure hour and your friends at their big two shows, November 1st of the Leicester Square Theater in London, England. They just asked me if I could run over there with them, and I'm so, happy to join them. We're talking about Paul F. Tompkins, Mark Evan Jackson, Mark Gagliardi, all your friends and favorites from the Thrilling Adventure, celebrating their 20th anniversary up there in London, England. I wish that I was traveling across the Irish Sea with my friend Jesse Thorne. Like the last time I went to the UK, maybe that will happen in the future. But in the meantime, there are only a few tickets left for the late show and a waiting list for

the early show. I hope that you can join us. Go to thrillingadventure.com. Live. for tickets. That's thrillingadventure. dot live for those last few tickets. And if you're a Judge John Hodgman fan in London, please let me know at Hodgman at maximum fund.org. It'll be great to connect with some fans while I'm over there.

You know what, John? You know what I have to say to 20th anniversaries? Because I'm having my 25th anniversary, baby. That's 25% more anniversary. Bullseye is having its 25th anniversary, my public radio program, Bullseye with Jesse Thorne, which I started as a 19-year-old at the University of California at Santa Cruz. And to Santa Cruz, shall I return on November 1st.

I will be at the Kumbwa Jazz Center in Santa Cruz, California for the Bullseye 25th anniversary spectacular. I will have Santa Cruz's own, Mr. Adam Scott. I will have Boots Riley, the legendary rapper and filmmaker. Our friend stand-up comedian Scott Simpson and Glenn Washington from Snap Judgment on Public Radio. And beyond all that, I will also have Santa Cruz's greatest rock band of all time, The Merman. You can also come see Bolzai at the People's Improv Theater in New York City on November 15th. That show will have Jad Abhamrod, H. John Benjamin, Kristen Anderson Lopez,

and Bobby Lopez, and stand-up comedy from Josh Gondelman. You can get tickets for all of those shows at maximum fun.org slash events. And by the way, John, if you have a podcast that people listen to, this is the arbitrary line that I'm drawing, it's 100 reviews in Apple Podcasts. If you have 100 reviews in Apple Podcasts, that signifies to me that you have a podcast people listen to.

Yeah, that's true. I'll go on your podcast. I cleared out a bunch of time to talk about the 25th anniversary of Bullseye Go on People's Podcasts. Uh, drop us a line at, uh, Hodgman and Maximum Fund.org. We'll connect you with my publicist, Emily. Look, if you're just looking for Emily Erskins, the name of my publicist, you can drop her a line directly. Well, you could.

Why not send me an email first? I'll, I'll go on your freaking podcast. Look, it's the only email. It's the only public email address. Hodgman and maximum fund.org. No. If you got a podcast, you got 100 reviews on Apple. Jess Thorne's going to go on your podcast, talk about 25th anniversary of Bullseye.

you're going to enjoy talking to him, send an email to me at Hodgman at maximum fund.org. I will forward that email to the appropriate parties and get that booking done. Two big shows on November 1st on opposite sides, more or less, of the world, Santa Cruz for the 25th anniversary of Bullseye, London for the 20th anniversary of thrilling adventure hour. See one. You can't see both of us, but please choose to see one of us. And if you want to see both of us, I'll be there at the People's Improv Theater in New York City on November 15th, sitting in the back row. Yeah, there's a John Hodgman on that guest list. Maximumfund.org slash events for your tickets to bullseye and, of course, thrillingadventure.

Live for your tickets to thrilling adventure. Let's get back to the case, shall we? Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. You may be seated. So when we were learning, sailing. in Maine. It was at the wooden boat school, where weird older men go to learn how to build canoes because they wanted to do it their whole lives. But they also had these sailing classes. And the sailing classes were often mostly populated by the wives and partners of these old guys who had made this pilgrimage to build a wooden boat. And that's how my wife, as a whole human owner right, took elements of sale. for women, parts one and two, with Jane and Gretchen. And even when I took the class, which was a co-educational class,

there were quite a few spouses, female spouses in this case. And we realized, in thinking it over and talking about it, is that these women who are often older, and there weren't always women spouses too, but these partners who were often older were taking the sailing class because they realized, that they were sailing around a lot with their partners, just like you two are, later in life, as second chapter of life, maybe third chapter in life.

And that as they get older, usually one person takes over the role of captain and knows how to run the ship. And then this other person doesn't necessarily. And then one day they wake up in their stateroom or whatever, and they realize, oh, if my partner keels over and dies, I better know how to run this ship. and so they come and they take sailing lessons. The other thing that they might be thinking about is now that I live at sea much of the time with my partner,

I want to murder that person. And if I do, I better know how to run the ship. Because it's very, very challenging. This is part of the reason why sailing is no longer something that my wife is a holy man in her own right. And I do, at least not together, which is that it is very hard to avoid conflict. when you are a married or otherwise devoted couple

who have suddenly taken to sea. It's very romantic, it's very beautiful. You had an extremely wonderful experience with your children or, you know, your tweens when they're on board. But then you had some very, very defined parental roles that kept you so occupied that you didn't have to stop and think about how it's challenging for a married, or otherwise committed couple who have developed,

who are both whole human beings in their own right, who are adults with responsibility to suddenly have one person giving the other person orders. It's really hard. It's really challenging, both to let go of your ego and allow yourself to be bossed around, because after all, who is Greg to boss Melinda around? Or vice versa, for that matter, you know?

You know, Greg, you used to be the guy who ran the galley for your household, when Melinda was working much more than she is now. And I bet you did a great job. And seeding that role in this new two-handed job that you have of moving this catamaran around the world, I'm sure is challenging for you that you want to sort of, you know, hover is the term that Melinda used for certain tasks that she undertakes. And similarly, Melinda, I really very much feel your need to find some sphere in which you

have the full authority to stab something in the head. And I think that defining those roles, no matter how deeply Melinda gets into fishing, is going to be really important as you continue your journey. And one of the things we don't want is for Melinda to get so deeply into fishing that she then goes deeply into the ocean as a 9,000-pound orca. pulls her down or whatever. So safety first and foremost, right? But I mean, I do feel like if you're going to be the captain of this boat and

Melinda is going to be in charge of provisioning and Melinda wants to do some fishing, I see that that falls into her department, Greg, not your department. And keeping part of being on a boat is dividing responsibility and respecting those divisions. I mean, obviously a captain is, I mean, look, no one, you, when you fill out your tax return, you don't say like boat captain as your primary occupation, right? You're not getting paid to boat captain. Nobody pays me to do this. Yeah, you're getting paid to do whatever you're doing with acoustical equipment or whatever. You know what I mean?

But still, if the way you divide the work on the boat is that you are going to make the boat go and you have the responsibility to tell Melinda to flake the Halliard and Malinda. and Melinda's department is to make you go and her too by feeding you and provisioning properly, then this falls within her department. But I think that, you know, Melinda has said that she would be willing to start small with a smaller investment of money than you think is necessary and to start by trolling and to experiment. And I think there's nothing wrong with that so long as you, I mean, the number one rule of being on a boat right is don't go in the water.

So I would say, yeah, Melinda, you should, you should start small, but of course, being in charge of your own department means not letting your department's problems become ship-wide problems. I've watched enough of below deck to know that, at least. You know, I think that you need to respect the boundary and the departmental difference that Greg wants nothing to do with your fish. nothing. Doesn't want to see it until it is a filet presented to him. And that's part of your job, I think, to find out a way to do that because Greg has a squeamishness, a dislike, a generational trauma around fishing. He does not want to spike the head of any fish. He does not want to run a

wire through any spines. It needs to be something that you can do and do on your own. Anyway, Melinda, You're going to go fishing. This is the sound of a gavel. What are you doing on this boat? We're going fishing. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Greg, how are you feeling about these fish tacos you're going to be eating?

Oh, man. You know, as long as I don't have to be a part of it, I am happy with whatever Melinda makes and cooks. Melinda, how do you feel about your husband having wiped his hand? of this decision? I think that was a good judgment. I accept the challenge of doing it only if I can do the whole thing myself. I can use technology to help me

get accomplished things, like lifting the fish out. I can use a winch on the line. I can figure it out. I think that it's going to be exciting. Greg, Melinda, thanks so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We had a great time, a wonderful time.

Thank you for having us. Thank you. Another Judge John Hodgman case is in the books. We'll have swift justice in just a second. Our thanks to Redator Aitone 419 for naming this week's episode, Sol Beneficiary. Because soul is a fish, too. Soul is a fish.

It's S-O-L-E. I tried to pronounce it S-O-L-E. I don't know if it read. The Maximum Fun subreddit is where we name the episodes, Reddit.com slash R-S-M-M-FOM. Rolls right off the tongue. Yeah, we look for our title suggestions there, too, so keep an eye up for those.

Evidence and photos from the show posted on our Instagram account at Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman. We're also on TikTok and YouTube at Judge John Hodgman pod. Follow and subscribe to see our episodes and our video only content. Speaking of video, our YouTube comment of the week comes to us from user

at JSW 9209 pertaining to our episode Pro Beta Max Court, featuring guest Bill Monty offering a truly epic string of puns and obscure references in his intro. JSW 92009 writes, quote, as someone

who has no native sense of humor and only steals pop culture and movie references. Monty's intro completed me, unquote. First of all, I'm sure you do have a native sense of humor. JSW 92009. And thank you for that wonderful YouTube comment. Guest Bill of Monty really out did himself

with his punny introduction in that particular episode. And if you want to see my face is I have to listen to all these puns, make sure to watch the episode on our YouTube channel, Judge John Hodgman Pod. And make sure to subscribe to our channel and tap the bell. So you get notifications when we put. post a new video, which reminds me of an old sea shanty. Jesse, you know this one.

Tap the bell, second made, let us go below. Look off to windward. You can see it's gonna blow. Look at the glass. You can see that it is fell. We wish that you would hurry up and tap. Tap the bell. The end of song.

Judge John Hodgman was created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman. This episode engineered by Chris Kalifarski at the PRX podcast garage in Boston, Massachusetts. The podcast is edited. by A.J. McKean, our video editor is Daniel Spear. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. If you're watching on video, you might have noticed I am not wearing my bailiff uniform and I am appearing from my home shed in Los Angeles, California. That's because Maximum Fun is moving. John, did you know that? I did not know that. I mean, I did know that, but I'm going to let you explain it to me. The week that we record this maximum fun is moving our studio and our office from

MacArthur Park to downtown Los Angeles after nearly 15 years on MacArthur Park. We love you. Westlake will miss you so much. But our office, we needed an office where everyone could come to work so that we could have an office. If you, by the way, if you go to the website, maximum fun.org slash moving day, you can not only buy like packs of our old crap, we found so much old crap. You're having like a moving day sale? You're having like a tag sale?

Yeah, if you want to get a mystery pack of Maximum Fun pins or patches or T-shirts, all kinds of stuff. We had so much cool different stuff. And everything is a deal. Like you don't get to pick what you get other than a broad category, but it's a total deal. And then also, Maximum Fun is selling the naming rights for basically everything in our office to cover the cost of moving. This is the right to name doorknobs, to name light fixtures, to name power outlets, for example, right? Yeah, and we will be using a label maker, apparently. Okay, there you go. Yeah, I think our colleague, our colleague, KT, will you take any opportunity to use a label maker? It's her greatest pleasure in life.

Well, congratulations to Maximum Fund for moving. I cannot wait to visit the new headquarters as soon as I'm back out there in Los Angeles. where do you go to buy stuff and to name stuff? Maximumfund.org slash moving day. Yep, that's exactly right. Okay, you ready for swift justice, John? I'm very ready. Okay.

On the topic of life on the sea, we have something from a redator in the maritime province of Nova Scotia. Nova Scotia Canada. Beechotronik, who posted this on the Maximum Fun subreddit, writes, we've been having an argument about whether garlic fingers should have De Nair sauce, that I feel like this would be gibberish to anyone outside Nova Scotia. Wow.

You don't know what I know. You don't know what I know. What is garlic fingers? For reference. What is this person talking about? Garlic fingers are pizza with garlic and butter instead of tomato sauce. Okay, here we go. Typically cut into rectangular fingers.

So I guess that would mean cheese, garlic. It's like a, it's like a garlic. sticks, but with cheese on top. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like, yeah, okay, I got you. Mm-hmm. That sounds good. Deneer sauce is usually a milky sauce that many people find to be sweet.

Dona. So, Donair is a reference to what we would call shwarma, probably in the United States. Yeah, or a kebab sandwich or a kebab, a kebab, like a Mediterranean Middle Eastern kebab meat sandwich. And the Donair sauce is that, is that what they call white sauce. I would have think of it be a garlicky, but I've not had it in Nova Scotia because, unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to get back to Nova Scotia in now almost 25 years. And I'm hoping, beyond hope, Jesse Thorne, that pretty soon will be announcing some tour dates and that someday those tour dates will include a trip from Bar Harbor to Yarmouth Nova Scotia on the Cat Fast Ferry and do a show in Halifax at some point. I don't know when we're going to get to do it, but it's something that we've dreamed about doing.

And I'll tell you what, when I get up there, not only am I going to have Donair sauce on my garlic fingers, because that sounds delicious, but I might even have some on my Lunenberg pudding. John, you think I don't know about some Nova Scotia stuff? Hold on, because I have just looked up Donair sauce. Oh, oh. Donair sauce is not white sauce. I mean, it is white and it is a sauce, but it is not. It is not, like, if you want, if you want to make a white sauce bowl like you would have in a fast food truck in New York City, Kenji Lopez-Alt has a great recipe for that. But that is not what this is.

This is made out of sweetened, condensed milk. Whoa. Vinegar and garlic. But the main ingredient is condensed milk, which is very sweet. That's very sweet. And I don't really have a sweet tooth. I have an alcohol muller. to, and I also have a swarmer impacted wisdom tooth, but I will try it.

I will try it for Halifax. I will try it for all of Nova Scotia. And I stand by, I would even put it on my Lindenberg pudding. All right. As this episode comes out, we are just days away from Halloween. I'm sure you're maybe getting ready to go out to a Halloween party. And as we lead into the holiday season, there are going to be a lot of parties. Love to hear about your party fowls.

What is the worst party foul you've, ever witnessed, experienced, or committed, did a friend ever ruin a surprise party that you were planning? Meanwhile, just in terms of Halloween, I know that we'll be past it by the time you write in, but if you go to some Halloween parties, tell me about the best Halloween costume you've ever seen in your life or the best one you've ever worn. Send all of your disputes, comments, thoughts, and questions to Maximumfund.org slash JJHO, if you're a member, make sure to let us know. You can also email me directly, Hodgman at maximum fund.org. And, of course, any dispute you have is very welcome here at Maximum Fun.

Go to maximum fund.org slash JJHO to submit them. We need them. It's the air that we breathe. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximum Fun. A worker-owned network. Of artists-owned shows. supported directly by you