Judge John Hodgman - The Book Case

Episode Date: March 6, 2013

Is Jason a book hoarder, keeping unread books from being used and loved? Or will he work his way, steadily and surely, through the stacks?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, the book case. Julie brings the case against her husband, Jason. Julie says Jason is a book hoarder, letting old novels and textbooks rot away in their garage. He says he's acquired a great collection of books and is working his way through the stacks. Who is right? Who is wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. It was pretty silly quoting poetry around free and easy like that. It was the act of a silly damn snob. Give a man a few lines of verse and he thinks he's the lord of all creation. You think you can walk on water with your books.

Well, the world can get by just fine without them. Well, look where they got you in slime up to your lip. If I stir the slime with my little finger, you'll drown. Bailiff Jesse, swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he has written the only three books that anyone really needs to have? I do. Very well, Judge Hodgman. So for an immediate summary judgment, can either of you bookworms name the piece of culture that I paraphrased. Actually, I didn't paraphrase this.

It was quoted directly from pages 117 to 118. Hint, hint. When I came into the courtroom. It's simple. I have no idea. Just remember pages 117 to 118 of every book you ever read. I narrowed it down for you. Is it the areas of my expertise? Well, I appreciate your flattery very much, but no.

And I already heard from you, Jason. No idea. No idea. What if I came and burned all the books in your house? Oh, Fahrenheit 451? Correct, dumbs. Next time. I'm debuting a new extra aggressive judgment style.

Today. I'm debuting a new extra aggressive judgment style today. Well, you both lose as a result. That was a hard one. What if I had said this one? Would you have gotten it? Monday, burn Millay. Wednesday, Whitman. Friday, Faulkner.

Burn him to ashes. Then burn the ashes. That's our official slogan. Also from Fahrenheit 451. Would you have gotten it then? No. Right. Good.

Well, I gave you two chances. You both lose. I'm going to go burn your books now. Thank you. That solves my problem. Well, I'm also going to burn down your house. So there you go.

Oh, nevermind. Everyone loses. So Julie, you say Jason has too many books. Is that correct? It, yes,

it, we do. I should have known that this was a problem when we were dating. I read a book called The Land of Laughs, which is a really nice science fiction fantasy book. Jason's not into sci-fi at all. I was preparing a care package for soldiers in Afghanistan, and I was about to put this in there and Jason said, no, no, I might want to read that someday. So the soldiers in Afghanistan were denied this book.

What? And it's still on our shelf. To quote John Worcester from the best show on WFMU. What? Jason, why are you keeping books from soldiers? That was just one instance. I don't even remember that instance.

If she wants to send it now, she can. Oh, sure. Now that your weird and monstrous behavior is submitted to the light of day, of course. Yes, of course now. But then, no. You don't recall this? I don't recall this exactly, no. I see. And I would like to read that book someday. Are you saying Julia's a liar? Well, I would say that she's engaged in some obfuscation. I mean, I understand that she's provided some materials to you,

obfuscation. I mean, I understand that she's provided some materials to you and she hasn't provided them to me at all. So I'm not calling her a liar, but I am calling her an obfuscator. This isn't a court. First of all, this isn't a court of law. She can do whatever she wants. Second of all, obfuscation is a kind of lying. You're calling your wife a liar. Just say it and tell that dog to stop moving around and just holler so much well um just say just say to your wife you are a liar i don't really think that i can do that because i have order this isn't a court of law you have to do what i say okay repeat after me julie yeah yes julie julie you are a liar you are a liar whoa julie

i cannot believe this no actually i can tell me when this happened again um this was probably eight or nine years ago. This is a constant thing. I love books. We both read constantly. When we met online dating, my handle was bookwormseeksdoglover, which, as you can see, fits us pretty well. How many dogs do you have?

Two. Two living and 300 dead in your den? Pretty much. Yeah, some books fell on them. How many books does Jason have? Oh, thousands, I'm sure. I haven't counted them. The thing is, any book that we- Wait, wait, wait, excuse me. Excuse me. Jason, have you counted them? No, but I've counted the number of shelves, and we have approximately 25 shelves. Shelves full of books, so that's not too many. Well, what would be your estimate of how many you have? Maybe 30 books fit on a shelf, so not that many.

Wait, look, I'm going to do some simple math, okay? 30 books times 25 shelves. It's a good thing you waited for me, because I know neither one of you could have done this for me. Equals thousands of books. That's right. Thousands. No, it equals 750. That's a big difference between at a minimum 2,000

if you were going to say thousands. So once again, one of you is a liar. I don't want to call her a liar. I think that it's probably closer to 1200. Maybe I'm underestimating the number of books per shelf. So let's just say between 1000 and 2000 books. I think that's fair. Are you a collector, sir? Or are you a hoarder?er because with books it's a little different my the standard watchword on this in this courtroom of course is the difference between a hoarder and a collector

is a display case but a bookshelf can be full of books that you are hoarding even though it is technically a storage device books are occupy a special kind of space because if you're just cramming in books that you do not read, that you are keeping and holding onto neurotically, that would be more hoarding than it would be collecting. But if you have certain areas of interest that are important to you, and you take care of your books well, and you display them and they are meaningful to you, that would be more collecting. So which is it? I'd say I'm more of a collector.

Okay. What are your areas of interest? Well, uh... Dogs barking, obviously. My areas of interest are literature, American history. I don't claim to be an expert in any of these things. I just like to... I'm not asking you to prove your expertise. I'm asking you to prove that you are not a crazy hoarder. I'm not crazy. I do like to keep books around because they,

I mean, I came prepared with six defenses, if you'd like to hear them. I would like to hear them, but I would like you to answer the question. Are you a book collector? Do you chase down first editions of things? Do you collect books in a certain theme because you like the books, or you just like the stuff that comes in the books, the words and the knowledge and stuff?

That's right. And your areas of not expertise, but interest would be literature, pretty broad, and American history and anything, and and dogs barking, anything else? That's pretty much it, but whatever anyone gives me, I'm going to eventually get around to reading. Is that really true? Because that can't be true. Well, if I keep it around long enough, I will. And, you know, depending on when I die, I figure I have a lot of time to go. How quickly do you read?

Not very quickly right now. We've got a six-year-old boy and a two-year-old girl in addition to our dogs and our full-time jobs. And the only time I really get to read is right before bed. Okay, and so how long do you read? Maybe like half an hour to an hour every night. All right, let's be generous and say an hour. And how many pages do you get through? 25, night. All right. Let's be generous and say an hour. And how many pages do you get through? 25, 30.

All right. Let's say 30. And would you agree that a book is more or less, what, 300 pages? Is that just for simple math? Sure. Okay. So every hour, you read a tenth of a book, and you have suggested that you have 1,200 books. So, multiply

that by 10, it would take you 12,000 hours to read your entire collection as it exists now. Right? 12,000 hours. That's true, but a lot of the books that we have around I've already read. So it would be 12,000 evenings divided by 365, roughly.

So, 32 years. And what is your age 42 so you will be done if you never get another book you will be done with all these books by the time you are 75 years old do you still want to claim that you will get around to all of them eventually i do because you sir are an obfuscator. Go on, though. Because my rate of being able to read is going to increase. As the kids get older,

they're going to be doing their own things, and it's going to involve less active parenting. And then I'll get older and have less interest in doing things and only want to sit around and read. Right, okay. So you understand what the future holds for you and your marriage then? It's pretty hot.

How many books do you acquire per year? Not many. I'd say between 10 and 20. What would you say, Julie? Yeah, probably. I think for Hanukkah and Christmas, we mostly get books from folks. And I've stopped buying books, physical books. I only buy Kindle books now due to the hoarding, and I have no room for them.

Okay, well, we'll get to the other problems of the hoarding in a moment. I just want to focus again on this ridiculous assertion that you're going to get around to reading all of them. Yeah, for Hanukkah, like two years ago, he got the entire Anton Chekhov collection, years ago, he got the entire Anton Chekhov collection, which he put on his Amazon wishlist thinking, hmm, this would be nice to have on the shelf, I suppose. I mean, that alone, I think, would take him half a decade to get through. So let's say you get 10 more books, right? So that would actually be another 340 books over the 34 years it would take you to complete your current collection so then we add yeah no i just don't you understand you're not going to be able to read all these things no i don't i don't really get that okay you're a hoarder good now that we've

settled that julie yes sir what uh what uh problems does this cause your household the space that they take up and also i, I love to read. I read constantly. I probably read more than Jason does. But some of the books, which I do like to reread, are double stacked on our shelves, so I can't get to them. If I buy new books, I don't have a place for them. Recently, I brought home a couple piles of psychology textbooks I wanted to store. There's no place for them, so they're in a bag in the garage. Okay, you're also a hoarder. Next. Next case, please.

And the kids' books. Now Jason won't let me get rid of some of the children's books, even though they're like pee-stained. You know, I just have horrible fluids on them because they have positive memories for him. Your child is six years old now? Is it a boy or a girl? We have a six-year-old boy and a two-year-old girl. And a two-year-old girl. And they're peeing all over the books

just because they want to give you a taste of what it's going to be like when they're teenagers. Screw you guys. Books are for losers. Pee. Okay of what it's going to be like when they're teenagers. Screw you guys. Books are for losers. P. Okay, maybe it's not P, but my mind imagines the worst. Jason, in your defense, would it be fair to say that you have, as your wife has suggested, a sentimental attachment to the books that goes beyond the truth or not of whether you're going to read them all?

That would be fair to say. Don't let your dog answer for you, sir. I'm asking you. No, that would be fair to say, regardless of what the dogs say. That's all you needed to say. You didn't have to go to this fabrication that you're going to read them all. Why do you think he won't let go of books? Well, I have a couple theories.

At first, when I first met Jason, I thought maybe he needed to prove something. And after he read a book, he wanted to keep it around to show how smart he is. But I realize now that's not it. Jason's probably one of the smartest people I've ever met in my life. He's very accomplished. And, you know, just having a conversation with him, it's really clear he's smart. He doesn't need to prove it with a huge bookshelf. I think that we can all agree, as bibliophiles, that's the way I pronounce bibliophile, by the way, as bibliophiles, that there is something wrong about throwing away a book, right? Right. I mean, that feels awful. I think we all concur on that. And yet I don't get the impression that either of the ones, with the exception of the ones that are stained all over with pee, you rather are suggesting repurposing the books by sending them to soldiers as well as orphans and needy people or donating them to use bookstores, that sort of thing? Exactly.

And Jason, do you object to all of that? I do for the books that I want to actually read. Absolutely. Yeah. But we've already determined that you think you can read all books. I do think that I can read all the books in the house at the time. You think you can read all those books? Sure. And I don't, I mean, giving them back to bookstores is not good either because it deprives authors of royalties.

I mean, when you sell a used book, the author doesn't get the royalty. And so why not support writers and support publishing houses by keeping the books out of the black market? You're hoarding. It's not a black market. It's been a recognized legal trade for hundreds of years.

The resale of books is pretty common. But that said, so you're hoarding books for the benefit of authors? I am. Have you ever bought a book from a used bookstore? Yes, I have. Get out! You've gone so mad you've become an utter hypocrite saying two things at the same time well if i'm buying it from a used bookstore i'm reducing the supply so therefore the next person who wants that book is going to have to buy it new and then do

you send the appropriate portion of the cover price to the author no i don't i shall. I shall let your silence resonate for a moment on this podcast. Everyone be quiet. The one time those dogs didn't bark, even those dogs knew that that argument was specious at best,

insane in all probability. You think I'm against you on this, Jason? I do, and I'm surprised because you're an author, and you're also probably a person who reads books. Well, you got one of those things right. I'm definitely an author. But as someone who used to work in the book publishing business, every time someone says the word book,

I am now conditioned to cringe and go into a fetal position and hope that no one ever puts a book in front of me again, having read so many terrible manuscripts. My bibliophilism was beaten out of me by working in book publishing. I am not the only person, but not everyone in book publishing feels that way, of course, but I am one of the few that got terrified of books for a long time, such that I had nothing left but to write them. That's how I avoided reading them. And indeed, I have culled my own book collection considerably since then. Because I know not only can I not physically read those books, but I also don't want to.

Has not your taste changed? And do you not think your taste will change in 75 years, sir? I do think it'll change, but I think the books that I have are generally pretty good. I mean, when she's talking about— Pick one at random, sir, right now. Reach out. Reach out to one of your many piles of books and pull one out. Okay, I'm going to have to go to the living room where the dogs are. All right, now, Julie. Okay, I'm going to have to go to the living room where the dogs are. All right, now Julie.

Yes, sir. Now that we can talk again. Is this guy kidding me, or is he for real when he says that he can read all these books? He really thinks he can, and it's kind of sad because he doesn't open himself up to new books.

You know, there's so many good books coming out constantly and some really fantastic authors these days. Michael Chabon, every few years he comes out with a new book and we have a couple of them. Jason hasn't gotten to them yet. Are you really coming on my podcast to buzz market Michael Chabon? No. Hey. Hey, hey, hey. Okay, no, sir.

You know how I feel about buzz marketing. B, Michael Chabon does not need your help, my friend. Okay, okay, okay. Fair enough, fair enough. And C, but C, I forgive you because you pronounced his name correctly and he's brilliant. So there. Oh, okay. Well, thank you.

But I don't think you need to make an argument that books are coming out every year and some of them are good. That we can stipulate. He's never going to get to them yeah so so the book i picked out at random is a book by herman melville it's called the confidence man okay that is a timeless book you may keep it go get another one okay now julie i mean jason oh julie all right sorry is he going to get another book all right good. Good. Go on. I'm talking to your wife now. Julie. Yes. How, how, what do you, what do you want to do here? You want to cull the herd by how much? Okay. Well, um,

10% you want to decimate it? 10%. I don't know. I mean, that would be pretty terrific. I, in my PowerPoint presentation, I submitted, I'm not sure if you saw that, but I work for the government, so I always use PowerPoint. But I had a proposal that I put a few potential courses of action in there. And one of my proposals is that we buy two nice bookshelves that are for indoor use only, not in the garage. nice bookshelves that are for indoor use only, not in the garage. And we both get to populate them with the books of our choice. Whatever books are remaining in the garage are given away. And then in the future, if one of us wants to buy a book, then we need to pick one of the books from our shelves to go to Goodwill. Two bookshelves holding, you're talking about two bookcases? Two bookshelves holding, you're talking about two bookcases of how many shelves each? Oh, I'm thinking tall ones of like five or six shelves.

Because right now we only have one really nice bookshelf inside the house and the rest are all in the garage. So, you know, if we had a library in the house, I would be fine with filling a library with books. It's just that they're in the garage and they're, you know, getting yucky. If I, so, but if I were to remember correctly, Jason described having 25 bookshelves. That's about right. Oh, you're back. Oh, I'm back. I picked out another book.

Yes. This one's called Jewish Magic and Superstition, a Study in Folk Religion. Who's the author? Joshua Trachtenberg. I prefer the one by Rabbi Mike Unterberg. Go get another one. Now, Julie. Yes. You're talking about cutting down the book collection by more than half.

Yeah, probably. But a lot of the books that we have are ones that are, you know, like cover... Is it possible that Jason is looking for a book inside his garburator? I just went into the garage. Oh, you just went into the garage.

That's correct. You're going in for some deep cuts now. I thought he was rubbing against a dog with a microphone or something. Oh, you just went into the garage. That's correct. You're going in for some deep cuts now. What's this third one? I thought he was rubbing against a dog with a microphone or something. Well, I know. I can tell he's very angry. What's the third one, Jason? The third one is School Law Cases and Concepts, 5th edition.

Now, here we go. The first one was a classic. The second one sounds really cool and mysterious. Third one, Cases and Concepts. First of all, settle down over there, Jason. Sit down, relax. Are you there? I'm relaxed.

Yes, I'm relaxed. Say the title of this thing again. The title is School Law, Cases and Concepts, 5th edition. Right. So imagine you're 74 years old. You've read all 1,199 books in your collection. You have not read a single new book since today for 34 years or whatever. You pick up the final one. Finally, you're going to prove John Hodgman wrong.

And the one you pick up is, it's so boring I can't even say it. Say it again. School Law, Cases and Concepts, fifth edition. And you're telling me you're not going to drink poison at that moment? You don't want to read that book. Have you read it already?

I have. Oh, so that one you've read. So you can throw that one away or donate it to a person who wants to commit suicide. No, that's one of his rules. Once you've read a book, it has to stay in the collection. Oh boy. What does the local public library think about that one?

Well, no, I don't, I don't, um, all right. Read books from the library. But yes, I can, I can expose this one. That's fine. Oh, well get, get ready. Cause this is going to be a long podcast. We're going to go through it book by book. Julie, stand by for a second. I know that you have a PowerPoint presentation. I'm sure that I got it. I'll

review it in a moment. But Jason, we've been having a good time, right? Having a little fun. I've been a little bit rough on you. You have six defenses. Is that correct? That is correct. I think I owe you a little bit rough on you. You have six defenses. Is that correct? That is correct. And I think I owe you a chance to gather your obviously very noisy notes together and present your six defenses in a swift and succinct manner, please. Sure.

Well, my first defense is that it's in the best interest of the kids to have books around. There's a high correlation between number of books in that household and academic achievement. But you understand that that is an argument that could be made for having books around, not necessarily an argument to me for having all books around. But I think if you have more books around, it's better. But how is that offset by the increased chance of being crushed by books?

Case two. All right. My second one is my psychological welfare. It's great for me to have books around that I've read in the past books that I want to read in the future. It really kind of connects me to the outside world. I would make the exact opposite argument at all. Go on case three. It really kind of connects me to the outside world. I would make the exact opposite argument in all cases.

Go on, case three. My third defense is that we have room. We live in a house that has 1,800 plus square feet. We don't live in the big city. So we do have room in the garage to keep them. The house is 1,800 square feet or does that include the garage? The house is 1,800 plus the garage. Okay, and the garage. And do you keep anything else in the garage besides the books?

Do you have a car? No, we don't keep the car in the garage, but we do keep— We do have a car, but it's full of old National Geographic's. And Goldfish Cracker crumbs. Okay, sorry, go ahead. I didn't mean to cut you off. You do have a car, but you do not keep it in the garage? Right, but we do

keep other stuff in the garage. Okay. So 1,800 square feet? Right. Well, I don't mean to brag, but I have an apartment in the big city, and it is 1,400 square feet, which

is not bad. But I have a family of... I have a wife and two children as well. I don't have 17 dogs like you. But I don't have room for 1,200 books. And that's only 400 square feet. That's an extra room that you have. Next.

All right, the fourth one is the one you've already heard about the supportive writers. The fifth one is... Now, wait. Just a follow-up question on the supportive writers. The fifth one is supporting the... Just a follow-up question on the supportive writers. And I want you to think very carefully when you answer this. Were you serious when you made that argument? No.

Okay, good. You just did your case a whole lot of good. Next. My fifth defense is the supporting artistic ambitions. So artists want their works to go on and live forever and ever. And by keeping it around,

I am kind of fulfilling the artistic ambition for immortality. Right. So you expect a thank you note from Michael Chabon as quickly as possible. And the sixth defense is that I might go back to being a high school teacher at some point, and I didn't ever prepare for my classes. So I would just copy something like right before class, and it's helpful to have a whole wide selection of books to take to the photocopier to teach that day.

You are a former high school teacher? That's correct Do you have a career now? Yeah, I'm a lawyer Okay And is there an issue of, aside from space, does this have a financial impact on your home? Julie? No, sir

You work for the DOD? Yes So you get paid a ton of Bilderberg money. Yes, we government employees are just rolling. But this is not there's no there is no issue of financial hardship. It's not as though Jason is going out and buying $1,000 of books a day or anything else. No, in fact, I think if you ruled in my favor, if anything, we would end up paying more because I would start buying more books. We would probably on the weekends go to some of the nice used bookstores and tour around. I don't think you would be going there to those dens of iniquity.

The black market. The black market thieving dens. When we were in Portland, you know, that one of the world's best used bookstores is there. We only bought two books for the kids. It was really sad. And is that because you don't have enough room? Yeah. So one of the books I just most recently bought was yours, the areas of my expertise.

And I'm not sure where that one's going to live. Wait a minute. One of the books you most recently bought? Sorry about that. It's only seven years old. You think I'm getting full royalties on that, Julie? I bought it on the black market, so I seriously doubt it. But Jason's going to send a check.

Your attempt, suddenly everything here has changed. As soon as Jason said he wasn't serious about that used bookstore argument, I was like, okay, this guy's all right. Now you. Oh, man. Do you own any of my other books? No. I see.

Jason? If it makes you feel better, I don't even own my own book that I've written. You can be reassured, whether it is on this podcast or another, nothing makes me feel better. Do you own any of my books in your collection? No. All right. I think we share our collection. Yeah, it's community property.

Um, so you own the, the, the out of print dollar bin edition of the areas of my expertise that your wife got as well. Is that you're sharing in that flattery? That's right. It's presently in our bathroom. Chase, don't tell him that. He's going to make us get off the phone. No, no, no. That's the one thing I will. That's fine with me. That's exactly where it belongs. I happen to know that that is all. My third book is in Neil Gaiman's bathroom. One of my proudest accomplishments. That's fantastic. He's one of my favorite authors. And that guy's got a lot of books. Now, you are now buying books in electronic format, non-specific electronic format that we shall not mention again by name. And this is because you want to buy new books and there is no more room in the house for new books? Or is it because Jason prohibits you from buying new books because it's going to add

to his Sisyphean task and you have to hide them from him on your machine? Probably a bit of both. As soon as I buy a book, it becomes ours, and it can no longer be gotten rid of. So it's not that just the books Jason brings into the relationship need to be maintained. Every book that I touch also must be maintained forever. Is that really your position, Jason, that if a book comes in, it never leaves? No, she's exaggerating. I've let go of a lot of books in the past couple of years. We used to have a system where all the books that I've read would go on a certain bookshelf

and not be dispersed among the other books in the more relevant subject areas, and we've changed that. So I've become a lot more flexible as our marriage has gone on. So I've become a lot more flexible as our marriage has gone on. Yeah, but you understand that you've become somewhat more flexible than the least flexible position you could start from. From an intensely thought-out categorizing system that most humans do not have. Even bibliophiles like me don't have special bookcases devoted to those that were read. I mean, that's fair enough. But I have been becoming better and I have been willing to throw out books. That's not my position. And by throw out, we mean donate or repurpose in some way, except, I don't know, in your case, it has to be throw out, right? Because of your

position that giving a book away counts as stealing from the author. So do you throw out books? Well, we would give them to Goodwill or somewhere else. So we would give them to a used bookstore. I agree that that's a better option than putting them in the trash. Right. Okay. So it seems to me, Julie, that your portrayal of your husband's maniacal, obsessive nature is perhaps a little overdrawn. Perhaps it is a bit. I'd like to draw the court's attention to a book entitled Trucks, which is, I think, in our garage. And it was one of our son's first books, which makes it very sentimental to all of us, of course. But it's warped from some sort of liquid.

I'm not sure what. And it's no longer white, the pages. You know, it's definitely some sort of bodily fluids or something on there. And yet I'm not allowed to give that one away because Jason still remembers reading it with our son when he was an infant. Well, also because he doesn't want anyone else to get any weird diseases off this obviously hazmat quality book. You know, I think that's a book that possibly could get recycled. Not necessarily given to Goodwill, but perhaps put in the recycling bin. We've got quite a few of those.

There's a wocket in my pocket. The last few pages of that are so disreputable. Yeah. Okay, one last question before I make my decision. Do you have the book Our Animal Friends at Maple Hill Farm by Alice Provinson? No. I think I have everything I need to make my decision. I am going to go

crawl under this pile of trash and old pumpkins and into my book igloo in the middle of my living room floor and make my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jason, you're just a crazy person, right?

I'm not a crazy person, no. Textbooks? Well, this one, this one I read, and you never know when it'll come up in my legal practice that I'll be applying this. You know, I guess this one I can throw out because I don't really do this kind of law. What about the high school textbooks? I don't know what you're referring to. Are 50 states?

Oh my goodness, that has such sentimental value, you wouldn't believe it. It's from the time before there were 55 states. Julie, how do you feel about your chances in this case? You know, I feel good about my chances, but I can hear the pain in Jason's voice when he's talking about getting rid of the books. And so now I'm starting to feel really guilty for bringing the case in the first place. But it would be really nice to be able to get to the books and get more and refresh. Jason, how do you feel? I feel better now than I did at the beginning of the case.

I think the court will probably split the baby and do something in the middle of the road. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom. First of all, I'm going to tell you people I am not going to split any babies. Thank you. But I am going to quarter a dog. No, I'm sure they're good dogs. What are the dogs' names?

Reggie and Lady Bird. Reggie and Lady Bird, adorable. And what kind of dogs are they? They're shelter dogs. Reggie's a black lab boxer mix and Lady Bird's a Basenji mix. They're both from the black market. Oh, I understand. You know, from the shelter.

They've been repurposed, yeah. Repurposed. Some bitch has not got her royalties. And by that I mean a female dog. Come on. I was trying to think of who authors dogs and it's obviously a female oh never mind

Jason you are a crazy person I'm going to say that right now you have a love of books which is very clear and you are a high functioning crazy person in that you are able to when pressed acknowledge that you probably won't ever get around to reading

school law and that it probably can go and that you do not actually think that used bookstores are the the hands of the devil uh and so uh in in, you are reachable. But you do have a, I think a real, I won't say obsession, but an overdetermined sense of sentimentality when it comes to books such that it is affecting the way you and your spouse live and affecting your spouse's happiness. And I urge you to take it seriously in the sense that now you are, did you say 42? I am. Right. Now you are 42, and you are coming to a point in your life where you're going to have to start letting some things go rather than hanging on to everything.

It is a youthful person, of course, who carries his beloved bookshelf with him from first apartment to second apartment to third. But now that you are in a home that you are sharing with another person, and especially now that you are the father to two human children and two canine dogs, life is going to get away from you.

And whatever ambitions you have about reading all of these things, you will find yourself, in my experience at least, relieved if you're able to just let a few things go and not clutch and hang on to things, especially things that have sentimental value because ultimately they are just books. But that said, you can keep as many dumb books as you want as long as they're not interfering with your life or crushing your children.

Do you know what I mean? I do. And so I have to find in favor of you, Jason, because, Julie, your life is okay. You have a boss job and a trailer for the DOD. You have solved the problem of getting new books because you have this device where you can hide your new books from your husband. And you can – it's not as though he's prohibiting you from buying new books, either by philosophy or direction.

And you have one bookshelf in the house, and the rest of the books are out of sight, out of mind in the garage. one bookshelf in the house and the rest of the books are out of sight, out of mind in the garage. If he were an avid book collector or, or just accumulator, I would say that there would be a reason for intervention in this case, because you'll soon be out, out and outnumbered and overrun.

But for the most part, he seems to have it just barely within control. And as long as he's able to maintain that control, I see no reason to deprive him of 50% of his books, which is indeed what you said is what you wanted to do. I might suggest that if finances allow it, that you might look into getting a storage space. If you're really just interested in keeping these books for the future, you might want to make sure that they're stored in a place where they won't come to too much harm or damage and are a little bit out of the way. And if the collection were to grow even more, I might even rule and insist upon it. But for the most part, I think that while I do encourage the defendant to release, to reexamine his connection to these books and release his clutches a little bit, as he clearly is able to do book by book by book. I don't see any reason for massive intervention along the lines that you are asking for, Julie. The only place where I will split the baby, though, is with regard to children's books. Children's books that have been destroyed by bodily fluids are not good for anybody. Those

are among the hardest to let go of, and I appreciate that. I mean, I do. There is a sentimental attachment there, but they are also the books that you most need to cull from your from your collection as your child grows older one or two from from youth is one thing but to hoard a whole bunch of picture books and board books and that sort of thing becomes deeply depressing to everyone involved as your child grows older. And those books would be better enjoyed by others. And you can't buy new children's books that not really well, even to my mind, on an electronic device. So you need to make room for the new ones to come in.

You don't have the book Our Animal Friends at Maple Hill Farm by Alison Martin Provinson, which I consider to be the best children's book of all time. And so I sentence you both to buy one copy, physical copy, using the internet, and add that new book to your kids' collection and get rid of one corresponding book that has been soiled by pee or vomit. Believe me, we got a book, we got a, we got a book from a library sale, a kid's book from a library sale, and it was a great book. Um, but it smelled so terribly of vomit that we had to throw it away. You know what I mean? And that was, that was a grim situation. Uh, so I. So I insist upon that rotation, and I encourage you to be more open to rotation in children's books in particular. And the other reason that I recommend Our Animal Friends at Maple Hill Farm is because it is a beautiful book about all the animals that live on a farm.

And it has one of the most moving and gentle nods to the fact that pets are mortal and eventually your two dogs are going to die and your children are going to cry and this will help them with that. So with that in mind, bringing it all back to mortality, this is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Julie, how are you feeling? You know, I'm feeling okay about this. I think a good marriage is based on compromise, and I'm really glad about the children's books.

That makes sense, and the judge is right. It's not, you know, really harming us to have a garage full of books. Jason, how about you? I'm fine with it, too. And I can definitely go through the books again with Julie's help and pick out some ones that we can throw out. Well, I'm happy to hear it. Thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you.

You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning, causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel. with Babbel. We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that

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from the 18th until the 27th. Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh

and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I

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A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh and you're on the go. Judge Hodgman, I can't help but notice that it looks like you're enjoying a book here in Chambers. Yeah, I'm just reading my old over street price guide to comics. It's not really intended for reading. That's a reference work, if I'm not mistaken.

When you get into the subplot of the near-mint condition Defenders No. 5, it gets pretty exciting. Could this be the next British television project for Julian Fellows, creator of Downton Abbey? Absolutely. Except in this one, everyone comes back to life. The rise and fall of the

first appearance of Venom? Precisely. Well, listen, we have a really full docket. If you want to clear it out, we can. Yes, let's do it. Lightning round style. Here's something from Tom. My friend Liam and I have a recurring argument regarding phobias. Liam has told me that he has a fear of being in outer space, outside a shuttle in a spacesuit, only to find that his tether to the craft has severed, causing him to drift off helplessly into the cosmos. He claims that because the experience would be a truly horrific ordeal, it is a rational fear. I claim that since the likelihood of him ever being in space is very, very slim,

the fear is irrational, thereby making it a phobia. He argues that you wouldn't call a fear of drowning in the sea irrational just because you didn't happen to be in the sea at the time of the discussion. And on this point, we agree. However, the sea is accessible to anyone, while outer space generally is not. Would you settle this debate? Can a fear be classified as rational or irrational based on situational context?

And is this particular fear a phobia or not? A fear of floating in space and being untethered from the craft, it could be classified only as a phobia to astronauts. Because only an astronaut could plausibly try to avoid that situation due to an irrational fear that his equipment or her equipment will fail. Fear of drifting off into space by almost everyone on Earth is something that would never happen and therefore is not something that you could be avoiding, even though it is irrational to imagine it happening. Do you understand the difference, Jesse? I think so. How does this apply to former NSYNC member Lance Bass?

The famous astronaut Lance Bass? Lance Bass, maybe? He would be, if he, if he were offered the opportunity of a tethered spacewalk and refused to do it because he had the fear that this guy had, that would be a phobia. But no human would have the opportunity, except for very few actual astro and cosmonauts.

No human would ever have the opportunity to fear, to have an irrational panic around floating off into space such that they would avoid taking steps to float off into space. That is a reasonable fear and that is a horrifying situation, but it is not an irrational phobia, because it is something that only an astronaut or cosmonaut would face. I'm afraid of going to space with former NSYNC member Lance Bass. Is that rational or irrational? Is that a phobia?

Do you know what, Jesse? I'm afraid to answer that question because of my phobia. Of Frosted Tips related questions? Basophobia. Here's something from Sean in regard to a recent snap judgment that Abyssinian cats do not, and this is a quote from Judge John Hodgman, love people and they have non-human emotions. Love people, and they have non-human emotions. Judge Hodgman, I must dispute your judgment that Abyssinian cats do not love people. They could be referred to as clingy, although I would not employ that word.

Engaged might be a more appropriate term. I was also offended by the litigant's breeder comment, so I am not a sycophant. offended by the litigants breeder comment so i am not a sycophant but abby's short for abyssinians are considered to be one of the most intelligent breeds of cats often referred to as dog cats with the added bonus of being self-cleaning sort of like a friendly oven no, no allergies. Plus, mine doesn't poop in a box. He uses the toilet just like grown-ups. Oh, boy. Thank you, by the way, for sending in a picture of your Abyssinian cat using the toilet, which I'm looking at now.

Oh, boy. Is that the end of the thing? Was that a docket case or someone just yelling at me? That's just someone yelling at you about dog cats. First of all, I did not say that Abyssinian cats are incapable of love. I said cats are

incapable of love. Not specifically Abyssinian cats. And obviously that is not entirely true. Cats have a complex emotional relationship with humans that simulates love and may even have something to do with love in their disordered cat brains. But bear in mind, cats also can be tricked by humans into pooping in the toilet, which is the most humiliating thing a cat can do. Let us just agree that cats are essentially

fickle, weird, pompous, and unknowable, even when they're licking your face like crazy, as is happening in the video that you sent me of your cat licking your face, either because it is a dog cat or because you wiped some friskies on your cheek. Either way, your cat is adorable. And because we want to get a million page views on our website, I'm going to post your video to MaximumFun.org because cat videos make it happen. Well, that's our whole docket. All I have left to do is mention BoatParty.biz.

Please go ahead. The Atlantic Ocean Comedy and Music Festival presented by MaximumFun.org, KCRW, and Splitsider featuring, among others, of course, yours truly and Judge John Hodgman. We may even dispense a little justice at sea. I'd love to do that. There will definitely be a shuffleboard contest and music

from John Darnielle of the Mountain Goats. We've got Mark Maron. We've got John Roderick. John Roderick. Oh, the great John Roderick. We've got, I mean, the list of people is almost comically long and impressive. Let me ask you, is Kristen Shaw going to be on this boat. Oh, the great John Roderick. We've got, I mean, the list of people is almost comically long and impressive. Let me ask you, is Kristen Schaal going to be on this boat? Oh, Kristen Schaal will be on the boat, along with Kurt Braunohler, her partner in comedy.

Also on the boat? Holy boats. I want to be on this boat. Am I going to be on this boat? Oh, you're going to be on the boat. Are you going to be on the boat? I'll be on the boat. And you, listener, will you be on the boat? Yeah, I think that's a yes. Cool. I look forward to it.

Boatparty.biz. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Marvelous. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at Maximumfund.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville. You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at gosuperego.com. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts about the show,

join the conversation on our forum at forum.maximumfund.org and our Facebook group at facebook.com slash Judge John Hodgman. We'll see you online and next time, right here on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. Maximumfun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Listener supported.