Judge John Hodgman - The Case of the Youthful Indiscretions

Episode Date: January 31, 2011

Brothers Evan and Michael battle it out: as a toddler, Michael stole Evans things, and gave them away at pre-school. Does Evan deserve an apology?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, the case of the youthful indiscretions. Evan brings the case. He alleges that his younger brother Michael often stole from him as a young child. Michael would then bring these stolen items to his preschool and they would never be seen again. He demands, if not restitution, then at the very least an apology. Michael alleges that as an adult, he's not responsible for lapses in judgment when he was preschool-aged. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Good morning. You may be seated.

Boy, oh boy, brother against brother. I don't like to see this. Jesse, will you swear them in, please? I will. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? So help you God or whatever? I do. Yes. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that it may be rash, ill-considered and almost certainly won't be informed by any knowledge of actual law? Yes, I do. You may be seated. Judge Hodgman? Welcome to another fun-filled episode of The Sibling Ref. Hello, boys. Okay, the complainant is Evan, the older brother.

I am the older brother. Go on. Explain your case. Sure. When Michael was younger, about three years old, he would go into my room when I wasn't around, go through various collections that I had, such as coin collections, card collections, etc., and take items. He would then either lose them or give them away to friends. I see. Would you ever get any of these back? A few of them were eventually recovered. Certain items were never recovered.

A few of them were eventually recovered. Certain items were never recovered. One such item was the prize of my X-Men card collection, my Gambit holofoil card. And you have entered some evidence into the record, is that right? Yes, I did send an image of said card. Not my card, of course, but a... Well, we don't know. It could very well be you never recovered it. Maybe this is the very one. That is true. It could very well be. You never recovered it. Maybe this is the very one. That is true. It could be. Do I have your permission to enter this piece of evidence into the internet record for the listeners at home to look at? Absolutely. Okay. And I'm bringing it up here. And okay, it is a X-Men Series 1, 1992 Gambit. What do you call it? A holofoil?

Holofoil, hologram. It's been a while since I've collected, so I'm a little out of the terminology these days. Somehow I don't believe that that's true. What other collections did you have? The only other collection really of note at the time would have been my Quinn collection. I did collect paperclips as well. I don't remember any of those being missing. I wonder why the paperclips were not attractive to a three-year-old, as opposed to the cartoon cards and the coins. A lot of three-year-olds have a lot of documents they need to wrangle. That's true. In their stomach. Sure. Yeah. Younger brother, your name is Michael or Mike, is that correct? Mike. I'll call you Little Mikey. What is your side of this story?

While I admit to the thief and the stealing of the car. I think you mean the thievery. Sorry. That's all right, Little Mikey. I admit to the admit to the paper clips, I probably stole some of those too. But I am prepared to argue that at what age is a child truly responsible for his actions? Again, I was three when I did this. Evan and I are both Jewish and American. As a Jew, the age of responsibility is 13. And as an American, it's 18. Scientists will go on to claim that you start being self-aware

around age two or three. I personally had delayed development. I was slow to talk. I never really picked a dominant hand. So I think that for Evan to claim that IOM apology is wrong. Okay. When you guys initially called in, I detected a really distinct sort of personality right in the very first things you said. Evan, you sound like a nerd who collects things and puts them in order. And Mike, you sound like a tough guy. Like, I'm afraid you're going to hit me. Little Mikey, what do you do for a living?

I'm a student. Okay, but like you play some sports or something? No. You sound like someone who calls in a lot to sports shows or you host a drive time comedy morning program. More of the polar opposite. Little Mikey and the Golden Scroat on drive time from... No? All right. I just feel a little, yeah, a little argumentative there. I like it. Evan, you know I like you. I like my nerds too. Evan, you also introduced a photograph of Little Mikey. Is that correct? May I have your permission to put this on the internet for the record? Please do. Can you describe this photograph to me? As Michael said, he did have some delayed development when he was younger.

However, if we look at the regular sort of age of self-awareness as two or three and add a few years onto that, the photograph that I've entered was taken when he was around six and three quarters and shows that he was still going into other people's belongings. And this particular photograph is an image of him wearing our mother's wedding dress. Oh, my goodness. I thought this was a little bit of dress up, but little Mikey, this is your mother's own wedding dress. Is that not correct? It's correct.

I'll admit to it. Yeah. It is me in the picture. How old were you in this picture, would you guys say? September 1997 it was taken. Thank you, nerd. So how old was little Mikey at the time? I was in second grade.

Considerably older than Gambit Stealing Time. So you have a memory of taking this dress and putting it on, correct? Correct. Did you have permission to wear your mother's wedding dress? I didn't need permission. Are you married currently? No. When you get married, are you going to wear your mother's wedding dress as is family tradition?

It's up in the air. What is your age now, may I ask? 20. And what is your age, Evan? I'm 26. And are there other siblings in this picture? Yes. There is one other sibling, David, who is 24.

Oh, the middle child. We don't really talk about him much. No, no. He has wisely disassociated himself from you guys and is off in another place trying to seek attention for himself for once. I know that little Mikey is a student, which means it sounds like he just gets drunk all the time. Evan, what do you do for a living? Currently, I'm working retail while finishing up my- Right. In retail, you mean you're working at the comic book shop or at the miniatures shop?

Cell phone store. Oh, nice. Okay. Very good. And I open the book every so often. Do you belong to a fraternity? Yeah. Okay. That's all I needed to know. We just started with that. That's not necessarily a jock, but it's basically you are wearing jock drag your entire life. Moving on.

So you obviously actually are educated, little Mikey, because you pointed out that science tells us that humans become self-aware and start retaining memories around the age of three. age of three. And I was very impressed when you said that, because I had gone out of my way to confirm that with my friends, Josh and Chuck over at the Stuff You Should Know podcast, who have podcasted about this very subject. And so when I heard that you were stealing silver dollars and gambit cards at the age of three, I thought, well, maybe he doesn't even remember it. But you do remember it, don't you? I have memories of what I remember taking things to preschool and losing it there. And I believe I remember being yelled at once or twice as a child. It could have been for anything at that point. Yeah. Wearing your mother's wedding dress, taking a gambit card, pooing on the rug like a dog,

any of those things. I did all three. Yeah. Did you? Good. Yeah. And so basically your defense is that you were little more than a dog at that time. All you knew as you were showing up at school, suddenly you got a Nightcrawler card in your pocket. And you're like, I don't know how I got this. Do you want it? Preschool was the one time in life I remember being popular. Right. And I believe he cut that Gambit card. Oh, I'm afraid you just said something to undermine your own case.

Because I believed what you were saying was that you were basically unaware of what you were doing. And you were going through life, as many a young child does, especially one who belongs to a fraternity, completely unaware of his impact on the rest of the world and moving from stimulus to stimulus and not caring about the consequences of your own actions like any fraternity brother does. But now you're saying you knew that by giving these things away, you were becoming popular. You had not only opportunity, but motive. No, I've never said I gave them away. I have a memory of losing them at my preschool. Losing them into other people's pockets, I dare say. I never said that. Well, how did you become so popular in preschool?

I had the cool things. But then how did they disappear? Must have misplaced them. You and your preschool ring of thieves protecting each other. Steven, to this day, I understand. Evan, I have some hard questions for you as well. Go ahead. You've nursed this grudge for a long time. Why didn't you put these things on a shelf? They were on shelves. I believe he may have climbed on a chair to get them. Why did you not invest in a strong box or a safe?

You know, I thought the plastic, the hard plastic sleeve would be enough. It was my folly at nine years old. Did you collect comic books? I did. Plastic bags or Mylar bags? Plastic bag with board. Oh, acid free? Yes.

You needed some mentorship early on. That's clear. Not only were you not protecting yourself from the forces of nature, which include three-year-olds, you were mixing up Mylar and plastic. Should have been include three-year-olds. You were mixing up mylar and plastic. Should have been mylar with acid-free board. You still have any of these comics? A few of them are still around. Give me some titles. I really got into the Generation X series when that started. I see. It was an X-Men spinoff. No, no, I'm familiar with it. Don't get me wrong. I know what you're talking about. Okay. Boy, oh boy. It does not say, Evan, you don't,

what do you want from Michael exactly? I don't feel that, you know, I have a monetary loss here. It would be more a sense of him feeling wrong enough about what he did that he feels the need to repay me. By the way, you're the older brother. Did you ever commit any sort of crimes against Michael? Noogies? Did you ever tell him he was adopted or that he had a tail at birth? Did you ever humiliate him, for example, by circulating pictures of him on the internet wearing your mother's wedding dress? Not up to this point. I will say, however, as far as my relationship with Michael goes, when Michael was an infant, I used to wake up early in the morning, break him out of his crib where he was sitting there awake, unable to get out,

sit with him in his rocking chair and read him stories. Your honor? Okay, Michael, I'll allow it. What? The picture in question, Evan wanted to submit to my high school yearbook as his advertisement congratulating me on graduation. So he has done similar things before. Well, perhaps that might have evened the scales. But, little Mikey, do you deny that Evan took you out of his crib and took you out of your crib, I should say, and read stories to you when you were but an infant? He does. He did. I've seen pictures of that time. So given that Evan does not want money and seems prepared to forgive you, why not take responsibility and apologize now? If I apologize now, then you're

going to have to make a baby apologize for pooping himself. You're going to have to make a baby apologize for pooping himself. You're going to have to make a baby apologize for throwing up. It's a slippery slope. When do we know you're making a slippery slope argument with me? Right. No, this is a this is a extremely unslippery slope. This is a slope with a lot of good hand and footholds on it. Michael, this is not prejudge my judgment because I'm not sure how I'm going to rule yet.

But I will say you are being a jackass. Now, I say that with respect because that is the role of a little brother, isn't it? I don't know. I'm an only child. Jesse, you're an only child, aren't you, right? I'm a sort of half only child. My father has two other children. Oh, I see. But did you grow up with siblings in the house? Half of the time. Okay. And when they were not around, wasn't it awesome? Yeah, it was great. Yeah. I love being an only child. I had toys.

They were kept in good condition by me. They were not stolen or lost or broken, except when Joe Dropkin sat on my alien figure from the movie Alien. There's no doubt that my collections were kept at my mother's house. I see. Very good. Right. Did any of you have any further things to say?

Closing statements? Yes, I do. Well,. Did any of you have any further things to say? Closing statements? Yes, I do. Well, I'm not surprised. It's important to note that Michael is a bit of a jock here. He actually was very athletic through high school. He was one of the fastest kids on his track and cross-country teams. Meanwhile, I did grow up as a bit of a nerd. I read comic books, collected X-Men cards. And frankly, I think this is about more than just me and Michael. I think this is about whether or not it's right for a

jock to just come in, see something shiny without, you know, paying attention to the sentimental value behind it necessarily, and do as he will with it. I think you're trying to sway the court with my own obsession of jockdom versus nerddom, but I would say this, nerd. You broke your little brother out of the crib. You showed him from an early age that rules did not apply to him. Jockism gets a bad reputation. I'm responsible for a lot of it,

but this is a spirited young kid here, a student. Michael, what do you have to say, little Mikey? I am almost offended that my brother would call me a jock. I believe I'm the farthest thing from it. I can tell you that that's wrong. I am horrible at sports. Women find me repulsive. I'm a social work major and Jewish for reasons why I'm not a jock. You're a self-hating jock then. Uh, I'm prepared to make my, uh, ruling. I'm going to go to chambers. I'll be back in a little bit. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman retires to his chamber. Is this trial about X-Men cards stolen as a child, or is it about being repulsive to women and other markers of geekdom? I would say for me,

what it's about is just responsibility. I'll be honest. I will be relieved whatever the verdict here just to have everything finally settled. Mike, are you afraid to take responsibility? No, because I don't think I should take responsibility. For anything? Not for this. I take responsibility for all of my actions, but not this action. All of them, but not all of them. All but this one.

I see. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom. You may be seated. This is a hard one for me. This is another sibling fight that I feel somewhat unqualified to judge for. Indeed, I am an only child. As I said, I had toys. They were kept in good condition by me.

They were not stolen or lost or broken. Except when Joe Dropkin sat on my alien figure from the movie Alien, which was really a shame as that was a very weird toy that should never have been made since it was for an R-rated movie and the head of the alien looked like a penis. Similarly, I had a land speeder from Star Wars that was in perfect condition from 1977 until the year 2005, which was when I presented it to my own human child

who was then about three or four years old at the time, the age of little Mikey when he was his most offensive. And my human child broke it within seconds, specifically the central elevated jet pod. And now it is garbage. Did my human child apologize? Of course, he did not apologize, nor did I expect one. He is a child. However, do I expect him to apologize when he comes of age? Yes. In fact, I have marked his 18th birthday on my calendar, demand apology. And I expect him to give it. Why? Because I do not intend to raise a sociopath. I expect him to apologize just as I expect Joe Dropkin would apologize for sitting his big booty on my sweet 12 inch alien figurine with a disturbingly phallic head. Not a euphemism. Now, the thing is,

it is true that a human child has much more in common with a dog or a chimpanzee than with the rational behavior. And yet, I think that even if you were to accept little Mikey's argument that he simply was acting on impulse and didn't know what he was doing. And I don't think it's easy to accept that argument since he clearly derived profit of popularity from his pre-K distribution of holofoil cards and silver dollars. Even if you were to accept that argument, he is, both by Jewish law and Goyish law, 13 and 18, he is older than both of those.

He is now a man. And I do not think that pooping on rugs or in diapers or throwing up in public, which is something I presume as a member of fraternity, Little Mikey, you do quite a bit now. You do not recognize that those things are the same as stealing. And it costs you nothing to accept responsibility for that and to say, I am sorry, bro, as you would to any of your bros in the fraternity. Little Mikey, you are not Evan's son. You are not required to honor your father the way my son must honor me when I demand an apology from him or rescind his right to go to college.

It is your job to annoy your older brother and just as it is his job to humiliate you with photographs. And in this, sir, you have done a magnificent job, truly many, many years of torture and annoyance on this very point. I say, bravo, you've done your job, but it is time to stop doing your job and start being a man. Accept responsibility and apologize, or else I must only conclude that you are a sociopath. Your sentence is clear. Say, I own up to it and I'm sorry, bro. I would encourage you to use the word bro. And I encourage you to do it while we're still recording. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Sorry, bro.

It's okay, Mike. Can we still be friends? Yes. Or brothers? Both. I like to see this piece between jocks and nerds. Maybe, Evan, you can read little Mikey a story at some point. And this is called V for Vendetta.

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