Judge John Hodgman - The Chastity Bet

Episode Date: December 26, 2012

Jason and Kenan made a gentlemen's agreement with several of their friends as teenagers regarding the advances of the opposite sex, but there's one thing that was never clarified. Who can help them find the solution? None other than Judge John Hodgman.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, the chastity bet. Jason and Kennan are longtime friends who made a gentleman's agreement when they were but teenagers. The person who could resist certain romantic entanglements for the longest time would win a sum of money. Now Jason accuses Kennan of bending the rules to stay in the game. Who's right and who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Oh, Bailiff Jesse, sounds like you're a little under the weather. Do you have a moment to talk to me about marriage? Yeah, sure. Absolutely. Look, Judge John Hodgman, I'm not an educated bailiff, but I can tell you one thing.

When two people see each other and like each other, they ought to come together. Wham! Like a couple of taxis on Broadway, not sit around analyzing each other like two specimens in a bottle. Well, now, Bailiff Jesse, there's an intelligent way to approach marriage. Intelligence? Nothing has caused the human race so much trouble as intelligence. Ha! Modern marriage. Well, now we've progressed emotionally.

Shut your piehole. Once it was see somebody, get excited, get married. Now it's read a lot of books, fence with a lot of four-syllable words, psychoanalyze each other until you can't tell the difference between a petting party and a civil service exam. Okay, swear I'm in, Bailiff Jesse. Very well. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he is in fact married to his money pit? I do. I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman? First of all, Bailiff Jesse, I'm very sorry to hear that you're so under the weather. And I can tell that you are, because your voice is a little raspy. And for the very first time, you have made the very common error that people make when pronouncing the name of the show or my title of calling me Jug Jod Hodman. That's how I know that you need to sit down

with a little hot Dr. Pepper, a nice fleecy blanket. You just take a rest. Do you mind if I use my small dog Coco instead of a fleecy blanket? Because that's what I'm doing. That's adorable. But please do not kill and flay any more dogs for your own comfort. Fair enough. Fair enough. Jason and Kenan have come before this court to seek justice. For an immediate summary judgment before we begin, can either of you name the piece of culture that Jesse and I were paraphrasing? I believe I can.

Oh, go on. I think it was Rear Window. You were Jimmy Stewart. Okay, that is correct, but what? That is unexpected. Yeah, how did you beat me to that? What is the name?

How do you know that, by the way? I really like that movie. It's like one of my favorite movies. But I still couldn't place the out of context. Well, for that reason, who was it who got it correct? Kennan.

Kennan. Okay, Kennan, the scales of justice are tipped in your favor. But Kennan, I made several changes to the quote. Mm-hmm. Some of them were changing the characters' names to Judge John Hodgman and Bailiff Jesse. Mm-hmm. piehole in the movie. But I also changed something else in Jesse's very first line. Look, Judge John Hodgman, I'm not an educated bailiff, but I can tell you one thing. When two people see each other and like each other, they ought to come together, wham, like a couple of taxis on Broadway. What else did I change aside from Judge John Hodgman and educated bailiff?

Is it a couple of taxis on Fifth Avenue? That's a reasonable guess. Broadway didn't sound right. Well, no, that is Broadway. Broadway is correct. That is the incredible power of my suggestion. Because I was trying to misdirect you from the correct answer. I changed when a man and a woman see each other to two people.

Clever. And I did that in honor of gay marriage. I appreciate that. Which is also a thing that you are honoring by Welshing out on your bed. Is that correct? Half of that statement is correct. All right. Half of that statement is correct.

All right. This is an unusual situation in which an immediate summary judgment has honestly been earned. And I, who have seen Rear Window many a time, would not have guessed that one myself. So I'm not going to try to Welsh out of my deal. And yes, I am saying Welsh because I'm bigoted against Welsh people. So you have a summary judgment in your favor. This one is yours to lose, sir. Okay. All right. But I do want to hear this conversation. I'm not trying to Welsh out of it on a technicality.

You couldn't determine which words I had replaced. But indeed, I had replaced a man and a woman with two people. Now, tell me the issue here, Kenan, in your words first, because you have the summary judgment. And Jason, you sound terrible on Skype, Jason. And also, you lost already. So basically, this is going to be a conversation between me and Kenan. All right. So we are 15 years older in high school, except Jason is 17. There are 10 friends who spend a lot of time together. All of us are about 14 or 15. Jason's two years older than us. We're at this stage in our adolescence where not only has none of us ever made out with a girl, none of us really speak to girls. That's a euphemism. can withstand the advances of all these women who don't speak to us for the longest will clearly be the most admirable member of our group and will receive a cash sum from everybody else. And there are different sums for different achievements. Okay. Now, Jason, I'll give you a chance to talk. Can you explain? So far,

do you agree with everything that Kenan has said? Yes, that's accurate. All right. So, Jason, first of all, how old are both of you now? I'm 34. And Kenan is 32. Okay, great. And so run down the big cash prizes that you wrote down in blood back when you were 10 and 12 years old.

What would you win? Okay. What would you win for not kissing any girls? Girls only, I presume, right? That was the issue? Well, I mean, I assume that we would have made an exception if somebody had decided they liked boys, but that didn't happen. Right, over time. But when you're 10 years old, you don't want to kiss girls because of cooties, but you do want to kiss boys because it's cool.

Or did you not grow up in Brookline, Massachusetts? No, we did not. We were a little older than 10 years old. Where did you grow up? Well, this all took place in Middletown, New Jersey. Middletown, New Jersey. So you were not 10 and 12 years old? Did I misunderstand?

No, Ken and all the rest of the guys were— Were you 25 years old when you made this bet? No, we weren't that juvenile. What were your ages when you made this bet? Oh, Kenan and the rest of the guys were 15 and I was 17. So at age 17, Jason, let's just put a pin in everything right now. Let's just focus on this. So at age 17, you were making a bet whereby you would win money if you were the last person to kiss a girl

starting at that time or in your life um no in my life i had actually already lost lost that one but it was more of a solidarity move uh with my friends why were you hanging around with all these children you You were 17 years old. You were Joe Kuhl. You were about to go to college. I just presumed you were about 10 years old and didn't want to kiss girls because of cooties. But you're 17 years old and arguably 15 years old.

All you want to do is kiss girls unless you want to kiss boys. What was going on in your lives at this time that you were willing to sentence yourselves to chastity? Were you listening to the Smiths a lot or what? I think it was more of a way of, and I don't think we realized this until we were older,

but I think we felt it on an intuitive level that it was more of a way to make those of us who were less popular with girls feel better about being so. So at least they were winning in this competition. As I said, I had already lost that one. So what you're trying to say is that you, a 17-year-old Mr. Cool, walking around with his shirt off at the football game all the time and second-faced with cheerleaders, were hanging around with a bunch of nerds like Kennan. And because you're one of those cool jocks, you wanted to make him feel cool by pretending you weren't doing it all the time with your little friends and doing this bet. Is that what you're saying? Not exactly.

You can hear Kennan starting to sob now. You can hear Kennan starting to sob now that he realizes what was going on. Were you one of those jocks? One of those jocks who also played D and D. Right. And you're kind of like, yeah,

okay, nerds up. I'll, I'll, I'll get into your no kissing game. Well, I was certainly never, never a job.

I think it's, I just wanted to be around these guys. Maybe not more than with than I wanted to pursue romantic endeavors. But I wanted them to know that they were important to me, I guess. Even though they were they were romanceless losers. Yes. So why did you want to hang around all these children when you were 17 years old what was the what was the thing you all did together and enjoyed and and and was the focus of your of your gang uh did you did you play did you play video games together did you collect comics

together i can only think of nerdy things, right? Did you have a fourth doctor who scarf knitting group together? I think we all fed off each other creatively really well. And so we were really into spending our weekends together

instead of spending them chasing girls and doing stuff like we wrote and drew comics. All right, now we're getting something. We programmed DOS. Oh, okay, here we go. Yes, now I know. I know, it sounds bad, but it was really fun,

and we got a lot of stuff done. We did plays of fake radio plays. We did a parody of stuff done. We did like, you know, plays of like fake radio plays. Like we did a parody of The Shadow called The Silhouette. Stuff like that. Now we're getting deep. It was fun. You had a kite flying society. See how it's all pouring out of you now?

Don't you feel better that you just said the weird kinds of nerdery you're into? Of course you were. You were 15 to 17 years old. That's what boys did. They hung out together. That's totally fine. But there's still part of you that's 17 years old going, I don't even know if I want to say. I don't even know if I want to say what I was telling you.

You know, we just liked each other. That's all. And some of them were real losers. And I just wanted to make them feel better. Like, that's the worst. That's all. And some of them were real losers, and I just wanted to make them feel better. That's the worst. That's the worst. You programmed DOS. You programmed DOS.

You did comics, and you were into radio drama. Yeah, no, that sounds about right. That's fine. Don't be ashamed. Don't be ashamed. No, I'm not ashamed. So now let's get back to the original question. it back to the original question you guys late late one night late late one night at the next to the reel-to-reel machine after you finished your final installment of your self-written shadow

radio serial who played the shadow by the way uh our friend nick who is the narrator um oh geez i can't remember canon do you remember i mean i would guess dale but i don't remember either what uh what characters would you play in in in the radio serials jason oh jesus it's hard to remember i think i can't really remember i would be quiet be quiet canon you remember what roles did you play? I said be quiet. Shut your pie hole. Thank you, Bailiff Jesse. Take a moment to think about, to try to remember. Kenan, do you remember?

I remember what we did in video games, and I remember the comics we all drew and the zines we made. I do not actually remember the radio serial very well. I think I was maybe not there that week. That was so nerdy for you that you blacked it out. You blacked out the memory. All right. Jason, do you remember it all?

I definitely played a lot of the incidental bit parts, you know, police officer number two, random thug, like that kind of stuff. Look, when you get a clutch of nerds like this together, and one of them is sort of well-socialized like Kenan, and the other one is sort of like a half-nerd, kind of doesn't know if he wants to be there anymore. He's a little bit older and trying to get out of this game. Like you, Jensen. In that group, there's usually one mastermind, one big brain nerd child leader, like the brain bug, who comes up with the ideas and figures it all out. In my elementary school, that was John Wolfe.

He was the one who had the Franklin computer. He was the one who had the growling dog, apparently. Figures it all out. In my elementary school, that was John Wolfe. He was the one who had the Franklin computer. He was the one who had the growling dog, apparently. Who was the kid in your group who was the ringleader? Who was the brain bug? Well, I would say there's two, that Dale is like Darth Vader and Mike was like Emperor Palpatine. Dale had all the charisma, but Mike had the really evil ideas and was pulling some strings. He was more insidious. He was the voice behind the power.

Yeah. Whispering in Dale's ear. Oh, wow. Okay. Excellent. So Dale, Mike, Ken and Jason and assorted other weirdos sit around. They decide, we're tired of not kissing girls. Or no, we're tired of feeling like we have to kiss girls.

If we erase kissing of girls or romantic entanglements of any kind from our lives, we will get to do this kind of stuff more efficiently, which, by the way, is absolutely true. Oh, 100%. You will code and write radio dramas and make three-dimensional chess much more efficiently if you are unattached in life. There's nothing more unstoppable in life than a nerd who does not have a wife or children. What were the incentives that you laid down? Back to my original first question of the podcast. You got a dollar. Incentives that you laid down. Back to my original first question of the podcast.

You got a dollar. So everyone would slowly give in to their carnal desires. The last one to kiss a romantic partner would get a dollar from everybody, or the last nerd standing? Yeah. Would get a dollar from everybody. And about 10 people were in this bet. Yes, exactly 10. And then where did it go after in this bet. Yes, exactly. 10. And then, and then where did it go after that? What was the next,

what was the next level up? Well, uh, virginity was the next level. That's a big, it's a big leap from kissing to full virginity loss. Yeah. We didn't go by bases. You didn't go by the traditional baseball model? Other than Jason, we weren't totally aware of what came in between those two things. Or what baseball was, for that matter. So, yeah, so there was maybe getting a girlfriend or a significant other or going steady.

But I don't know. Maybe you guys are a little younger than me. Maybe you lived in a wilder time. Maybe no one ever went steady. Maybe it was just hookup culture already. All right. So virginity, what would happen? The last virgin in the group would be rewarded for his purity with how much money?

$10 each. $10 from everyone in the group, which would be nine or ten other guys? Let's say for the sake of math, it was ten other guys, all right? Just so that we can – that's $100 in your pocket. Well, nine other guys. Oh, it was nine other – you're insisting that I – all right, fine. You don't give yourself money. No, no, no.

I can do the math. $90 in your pocket. to the math, 90 bucks in your pocket. And then was there more, was there another gradation beyond marriage or did you just jump from virginity to marriage? Virginity to

marriage and then a death one which is kind of morbid but we still... It totally reflects a 15 year old boy's idea of emotional development. Alright, so here's what you do. You first, you kiss a girl,

then you do it with her and then you got to get married. No other possibilities. And then, so, so the last person to get married in the group collects how much from each other person? Uh, go in metric,

a hundred dollars. Okay. A hundred dollars. So $100. Okay. $100. So it's $900. Right. Okay. And now who won the no kissing? Who won the last kiss? Here's the thing. The last guy is still active. Oh, he's still in the game. And I think he'd probably be sensitive about it, too. Let me just clarify here. Someone won the first bet, correct?

Yes. Someone got nine bucks. Right, okay. Yeah. And the second one has already been, I presume, at this point, one, correct? Yeah. All right, so the only thing remaining is this $900 last-to-marry prize. Is that correct?

Yeah. That's the only thing I understand. And then the death one, but the death one is hopefully far in the future for all of us. Wait, so you went from kissing to intercourse to marriage to death? We were 15. We didn't know what else people did. So the last, there's Birth of a Child. That's another landmark.

Yeah, we didn't know about that. Yeah, we didn't even think about that at the time. There's buying your first car, buying your first home. Becoming a dungeon master. Becoming a dungeon master. Growing your first mustache to announce to the world that you are now middle-aged and ready to once again become a virgin. And recuse yourself from sexual beinghood. All those things. But you know what? You guys,

since you have enough trouble with these bets, we'll leave it be. And herein is the conflict, right? Because Kennan has made a decision that is controversial within the group. Jason, you bring this case. You seek justice.

What has Kenan done that is so wrong? Well, here's the thing. He made a decision with his long-term romantic girlfriend, and it is one that everyone in the group respects, uh, that he, they, they decided that they wanted to get a civil union in solidarity with, uh, all of the members of the homosexual community in the entire country who cannot get married. Did you drop them a line? Did you get their approval on this? Yes. I'm still waiting on some of them.

But we don't, there's a dispute within the group. We don't think that this long-term romantic commitment to a girl is a spurious thing as well. We don't think it's just a symbolic gesture. We also think that he is making a long-term legal commitment to his partner. Well, I don't care what you think. Kenan. Yes. You have a woman in your life. I do. Jason described her as a romantic girlfriend. Is she very romantic? She is, yeah.

Rose petals on the bed every night? Candles all the time? There was a lot of baking before law school. Many a sad novel has started that way. Okay, so how long have you been going out? May I ask her name, or would you like to use a code name? No, it's okay. Kate is her name. So, okay. So how long have you been going out with what, what may I ask her name or would you like to use a code name? Uh, no, it's okay. Kate is her name. Kate. Okay. Romantic Kate. And you have been going out for a period of time. How long? Uh, four and a half years.

You've been, that's since you first started dating. Yes. All right. And, and, and, uh, do you, do you anticipate having a long-term relationship with Kate? I certainly hope to. Yeah. A long long-term relationship with Kate? I certainly hope to, yeah. A long-term committed relationship with Kate? Yes. Do you cohabitate? Oh, we do cohabitate, yes. Do you have any sort of legal arrangement?

We do. We have a domestic partnership, which is recognized in New York City and Yonkers. Only in those cities? Correct. So if you go out of town, say to New Paltz, New York, you can't get a hotel room together? I think actually it is recognized throughout the state, but you can only get it if you're a resident of New York City or Yonkers. But the rest of the state will recognize that it exists. If we were to leave New York and one of us were to end up in the hospital, the other one would not have any kind of visitation rights or anything like that.

So what rights does a domestic partnership entail you to? Essentially, we can visit each other in the hospital and prison, and that's about it, because it's not recognized at the federal level. You can visit each other in prison, but you do not have tax benefits? Correct. Right? You can't file as a married or domestic partnered couple? Nothing. Right. Does she qualify as next of kin if you were to pre-decease her? No. Nothing

except what's stipulated in a will. Do you guys have any living wills? Do you have a healthcare proxy or a power of attorney? Should you become incapacitated, say, by getting a terrible shock from your headphones

while doing a podcast? Cthulhu forbid it happen, but it's all part of the release that we need you to agree to. You may be articulated to death by your headphones. It's a small price to pay in pursuit of justice. But she cannot make healthcare decisions on your behalf if you're incompatible.

No, she cannot make healthcare decisions on my behalf. And when did you get this domestic partnership? So we don't keep track of it very closely, but I just asked her. She says it was August just over two years ago. August of two years ago. What did you get her? For our anniversary, are you asking?

Yeah. We celebrate our anniversary of the day we met, and we don't actually celebrate the anniversary of our domestic partnership. I don't know what the exact date is. For future reference, since you're going on to your third anniversary of your domestic partnership. Yes. The third anniversary traditionally is the subscription to Lame Magazine anniversary for domestic partnerships. All right. Representing the specialness of the domestic partnership as a legal status

and, and as a, and, and, and as an emotional status in your life. So you can get her like a subscription to mental floss or something and just be like, yay,

we didn't get married. Cause you know, those kids love you. You just like broke everyone who works at mental flosses heart by saying that. No, and just be like, yay, we didn't get married because we're smarter than everyone else. You know those kids love you. You just broke everyone who works at Mental Floss' heart by saying that. No, it's fun, Mental Floss. They understand. I can't buzz market Mental Floss

in a deprecating way on my own podcast. What's wrong with you? Anyway, get her a subscription to Mental Floss to prove how special your partnership is and how much smarter you are than everyone else who just went ahead and got married. Now, let me ask you this for real, Kenan. The domestic partnership idea, whose idea was it between you and Kate? This is something that I have felt for a while.

So I think that I sort of raised it with Kate and she was totally on board. I mean, I think she agrees with the principle. It's not like I talked her into not wanting to get married or anything. I was like, hey, I sort of feel this way about this. And she was like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Had you guys previously talked about getting married? I think that that was probably part of the first kind of discussion about that that we'd ever had. We don't even know.

I guess we've been together for four and a half years about two years ago i put a piece of tinfoil on her finger and we called it a thing we're like this one's for the gays yes no look i i have friends who have not been married or i should say i have friends who have chosen not to get married, although under any other circumstances, clearly they would, because they would like to wait until same-sex marriage is legal in every state. Right. that's a principled position to take. And I'm just trying to evaluate, first of all, that that is the principle that you guys are exercising, both of you, honestly and sincerely. And second of all, to get a sense of who is actually, whether it's something you both believe in

or whether it's something you said in order to avoid getting married. As far as I know, it's a principle that we both really believe in. Yeah. Well, I have to say, I'm inclined to trust that assessment because when I asked you whose idea was it to go into the domestic partnership, you had two possible answers. One was, it was my idea, in which case I would have known it was your idea. Or you could have said, oh, it was both of our ideas. In which case it would have been your idea. But you chose, you chose, you chose this, what sounded to me like an honest answer,

which is, it was your idea and you managed to sell Kate on this. And she probably legitimately agrees with you. Do you, do you, do you doubt the sincerity of anything he's said so far? Not at all. I believe that he really is a strongly principled person, and he strongly believes in the principle that he's exercising. Okay. So next question, Kennan. If same-sex marriage were legal in every state, what is the status of same-sex marriage in New York State currently, to remind our listeners? We have same-sex marriage at the state level in New York. Of course, it's still not recognized at the federal level. And if it were recognized at the federal level, would you then go ahead and proceed to get married, or are you waiting for the All of North America bonus round or the worldwide same-sex marriage super prize?

Oh, that's interesting. So you're saying that if DOMA is repealed but not all states institute it and there are some states where you can get same-sex marriage and others where you can't? Look, I don't know. You guys wrote your domestic partnership vows when you sat down and figured it out. There are no vows, which is one of the many things that makes it very different from an actual marriage. Right. You made no promises to each other.

But I don't know. I think that we would have to sort of talk about that again if people could get something that was the same thing as heterosexual marriage, but only in some places. I don't know that we've really worked out that particular kink. I have no vows in my marriage, by the way. Are the vows in a domestic partnership, legal domestic partnership basically amount to, hey, babe, no promises? That's pretty much it. So there is no trigger mechanism for which you would feel comfortable getting married vis-a-vis your unity with all the homosexuals of the world?

It's not like the minute something happens, like we go get our marriage licenses. It's that we sort of talked about how we were, you know, considering that we both sort of feel that we're going to spend the rest of our lives together. of our lives together. And we both were, as far as I know, we both were uncomfortable with the idea of asking our gay friends and family members and the people we love to sort of help us participate in that ceremony and union and everything. So we decided to sort of do what at the time was the most that was offered to them. Do you, I'm going to ask some personal questions here. Do you guys share a bank account? We do not. Do you guys have an expectation of monogamy?

Yes. And you can foresee no clear path, no clear trigger by which you would definitely go ahead and get married? No. Do you intend to get married? It's something we talk about doing, but I think that, I don't think that that's a done deal, but I think that it's something that we both think about doing, yes. You know, I bet she does think that.

That's Bailiff Jesse, by the way. Not trying to be unkind here but jason do you know kate yes does she want to spend a year planning a wedding my guess would be no your guess would be no and she's an attorney yeah uh she's working on mass incarceration and sentencing reform mass incarceration and sentencing yeah okay it's the kind of law where we won't ever have any money and what and well you know that it takes two in a domestic partnership what do you do for a living that doesn't make any money oh i i make i have even less potential for ownership than she does um i make comic books and websites. Brother.

It's never ended for you, did it? The nerd days. You know, the big money is in text adventure games. That's what I told them. So, Jason, Kenan has clearly never grown up. So why are you under the impression that he has now effectively been married?

The position of his opponents in the group, basically I'll share the view that his moral position, which we all respect greatly is allows him that the maximum commitment that he can make, uh, given his principles is a domestic partnership. And that is the maximum level that he can make given his principles is a domestic partnership and that is the maximum level that he has reached plus like at the time when we were teenagers

the idea of a domestic partnership was we could never have like thought we didn't even know what that was which I know and you get into like wording of the bet in general but we would never ask him to to supplant his principles and say, you know, who cares about the injustices of our country and the world at large and just get married already. But we do think that as far as like the point that he's at in his life, given his principles, he has reached the maximum amount of commitment that he can for a romantic relationship. Yeah, but if I may, let's say that Kenan were not a guy who makes comics and websites, right? And instead were the kind of guy who was going around dating a lot of women. Those are the two polar opposites. Right. are opposites. Let's say you're the kind of guy who's going around dating

a lot of women all the time and decided in his life marriage is for the birds. I am never going to do it. I think that it's a terrible institution. Would you and your nerd friends then get together and say, well,

he's gotten as far as his principles will allow. Therefore, he's got to give up the money because he's never going to get married. I mean, that hypothetical person would still have – they're not really applying any principles anywhere there, I don't think. Well, I think committed bachelorhood is a principle. It is how we used to describe gay people, and they are a protected class now. True.

I'm just being silly, of course. But basically, is it unanimous among the group that Kennan is Welshing on this deal? It is almost exactly split in half. If Kennan were allowed, if I were to rule in Kennan's favor here and say he is not married and therefore cannot advance the game, it's a high-stakes ruling for me to make because, A, not only will it announce the end of your childhood, but, B, it will be the end of this bet. Right? Because it can't proceed properly.

Or he has to take himself out of it altogether and he's no longer part of the group. I will be effectively disbanding the group. Would I not be? Well, no. No, not really. I mean, like, another stupid rule that we've made for ourselves with this group of ten guys is that any decision that alters any this bet or any other agreement that we've made is that everything has to be agreed to unanimously. I've already gone through, uh, eight of the guys in the group, two of which the other two not are difficult to get ahold of that said that they would agree to a third party

ruling in this scenario. of that said that they would agree to a third party ruling in this scenario. But the other two, like we could go back and what Ken and I have both agreed to is to argue in the favor of the opposite person should that person win this argument. Well, you already have a system of justice. I have no jurisdiction here. Well, you already have your own internal court of appeals at the state level. Why are you trying to do an end run and bring it to me, the Supreme Court? You are the Supreme Court in this situation. to sidestep the democratic process and go straight to a judicial activist in order to legalize Kennan's marriage against his own will.

So are you married? Yes, I am. You're not even going to stand a game by this. Oh, no, I can't. That's why I think that I'm speaking basically for the bachelors in this group what do you like the lore act what do you have oh you got to it first you got to it first jerk i'm just glad someone in america is standing up for bachelors unmarried men have it so difficult in this country. It's tough, right?

How many bachelors remain in the group? Five, four, if you count Kennan as not one. So let's include Kennan as one for the moment. That's five? Five, yeah. We know where Kennan stands on this. Shouldn't the four remaining bachelors be the only voting bodies in this? Because they're

the only ones who stand to gain. But they are clearly biased. They are clearly biased, and if it were to be their vote, Kenan would be voted down because they want to win. So it's a five to five. Would you say that it is a five to five deadlock right now

and I'm the deciding vote? Yes. I think the answer should be yes at this point. Kenan, if I vote in your favor and say that you are not married and therefore you may stand to win from this bet, even though you are in a committed long-term relationship. Yes. Don't you think that that will effectively sour the entire process? I don't think that. Why would it?

Once we define non-marriage as a domestic partnership, cannot we define non-marriage as any situation? No, because Jay is acting like my principles are this kind of like impenetrable ball and there's no way I could possibly get married because I have principles. But in fact, like I have lots of pressures on me. Like I have parents who really want me to be married, bug me about it on a weekly basis. I got an email from my mom today about how I should probably get married. So it's not like I am still resisting all the forces. I have been in situations and I will be in a situation again, I think when Kate gets a job next year, where I could have healthcare if I were to get, if we were to get married and I won't wouldn't won't if we don't so i think that there are like very real pressures and very real benefits uh to marriage that continue to exist for me and

that make uh my not being married sort of significant and not by any means de facto okay i think i have everything I need to hear. Do you have any last thing you want to say, Jason? That was a pretty good closing argument. You've learned something from your lawyerly non-wife, Kenan. Jason, any last words, any final statements you want to say before I go into the chapel in my chambers where I perform fake weddings? I suppose that it was hoping that this whole debate, and it has been for all the members

of the group in the past, was more about the betrayal of the spirit of the original agreement and not so much about the definition of marriage, which, I don't know, we weren't trying to argue that, I guess. So if you want to take that into account, please do. What do you want me to do if I find in your favor? I just want Kennan to return to the group and argue that he should drop out of the agreement. He should put $100 in escrow to give to the last backer standing? Yeah, basically.

All right. I like situations that involve escrow. I'm going to tell you that right now, Kenan. You may have difficulty. I will consider this to the sound of some beautiful organ music that I have on a tape, and I will be back in a moment. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Jason, how are you feeling about your chances? Kenan was super concerned before we did this that he was going to lose on the summary judgment. And he's the one that ended up nailing it. And even though we both are big fans of Rear Window, I feel like my chances are slim to none at the moment. How about you, Kenan? Oh, well, you know, I'm a progressive, so I always think I'm about to lose.

Well, Kenan, Jason, we'll see how you do. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom. Here reenters the judge. Here re-enters the judge. Here re-enters the judge. Oh, guys, you don't have to throw rice at me. Just throw Alka-Seltzer, then seagulls

will eat it and explode, which is hilarious at my non-real weddings. Oh, hi. Sorry about that. I kind of went into one of my weird seagull-expl exploding fugue states. Good to see you both. year old to 17 year old nerd in the, not only, not only did you define your terms very specifically, um, uh, but you also, uh, set out a course of redress should there be disputes going forward and a, and a democratic system of dispute resolution, um, which has failed you in this case, but only because you had no unanimity and no tie-breaking process.

But that said, you guys defined your terms at a time when your lives were much simpler. Only had you not heard of domestic partnership, and arguably 10, 20 years ago, right? Arguably the idea of same-sex marriage as an issue at all was non-existent at that time, or at least so provocatively farsighted that I didn't imagine that it would be realistic, at least certainly even growing up in Brookline, Massachusetts, where all the cool boys kiss boys. We didn't imagine that that was going to be a reality in our lifetime in any state, much less all states. So what you didn't appreciate, but not only did you not appreciate those complexities,

but not even the simple complexities of normal adult emotional, romantic, and sexual life, such that your benchmarks were extremely simplistic. And I'm not putting you down for this, but they were, you know, kissing, doing it, marriage, death. Those are big ones, to be sure. But I'm not surprised that going on 10, 20 years, as you have matured into fully formed There are big ones, to be sure. difficult and have surprising sidetracks that perhaps you did not think of earlier when you were constructing your contract on parchment out of nerd blood. Unfortunately for you, Jason, this means you have very specific terms

that may be out of step with today's go-go lifestyle, but nonetheless still carry real meaning, which is to say, Kennan is not married. There is a reason that people of the same sex who love one another are fighting for the right to get married, because being married does not mean simply living together in a committed relationship that is monogamous, or not for that matter, for a long period of time. It does not even mean sharing finances, which it can and doesn't do. It does not mean the right to give each other subscriptions to Mental Floss magazine. Buzz marketing! Right? It also carries with it certain important rights of kinship and legal rights that stem from kinship, including heritability of wealth, obviously the right to visit people in the hospital, but also to make decisions absent other living wills and powers of attorney about someone's life when they're incapacitated.

And those are things that define marriage among hetero couples that only same-sex couples in certain states and districts are allowed to enjoy, those rights and privileges of being married. And Kennan doesn't have those. In fact, he chose not to have them. And even, I might think differently, since marriage always throughout history was primarily a legal and financial arrangement, I might be a little bit more swayed to your case, Jason, if Kenan and Kate shared a bank account and shared all finances, because that's when marriage starts to get really miserable. And that's when, as far as I'm concerned, it's real.

But in this case, they don't. They have separate finances. And Kenan and Kate are both under external pressure, specifically from Kenan's mom, to get married. And Bailiff Jesse Thorne suspects there may be internal pressure as well, in that

Kate may secretly dress up in a wedding gown at midnight while Kennan sleeps and sing Here Comes the Bride to herself. I don't know whether or not that's true. She sounds like a real bridezilla to me. In any case, unfortunately for you, not only did Kennan win the summary judgment at the beginning, but you could not muster an argument at any point that would suggest that he did not utterly deserve it simply for knowing the movie Rear Window better than you.

In all ways, Kennan has argued this properly and also has common sense right on his side. The sad thing, though, I think, about the whole situation is that your youthful nerd blood pact is unraveling. It is unraveling due to the changes in people's lives. It is unraveling. It is unraveling due to the changes in people's lives. It is unraveling due to the complexity of life as it is lived once you are an adult

and not making your own homemade radio dramas. It is unraveling the way most childhood relationships unravel. And you guys should feel, I guess, proud that you were able to keep this thing going for 20 years without a major challenge to your conception of what is life. I mean, you guys didn't even factor in divorce into your seven stages of man. Do you know what I mean? Like, how many of your group is divorced? And how much money does he have to give back to everybody? How many of your group is divorced and how much money does he have to give back to everybody or what?

You know, it's like you guys are facing reality and Kenan is just one of the ways that you must now acknowledge that you are older and friends of a different kind. And I trust still very good friends. So I will not rule in favor you. Paradoxically, Jason, the 17-year-old who wanted to get out of this thing as soon as possible are the ones who are trying to hold it together now. That Kenan and Kate have moved on with their lives into a domestic partnership of the future. You're the one who wants to hang on to the group. You've got to let them go. You've got to let them all go, Jason. You understand what I'm saying? It's time to be the 17-year-old you always should have been.

So go take your shirt off and hang around the lockers with your shirt off from now on. This is the sound of a gavel. judge john hodgman rules that is all please rise as judge john hodgman exits the courtroom canon how are you feeling i i feel good honestly because i have really never understood what jason's objection was. I feel like now I at least get that he feels that I was subverting the spirit of the bet, which I honestly didn't understand. I just sort of thought that he was being bitter because he entered into a bunch of bets he had already lost. Jason, how are you feeling?

I actually feel good and happy as well. I'm happy for Kenan. I'm happy for his stage in life. I'm happy for him not having to take flack from some of his friends for standing up for his principles. Um, cause you know, like I, I was definitely on the opponent side of him, but I was certainly not his fiercest opponent. Just the one that happened to, uh, to be the mouthpiece today. Can I, can I ask you a sort of a serious question, Jason? Yeah, sure, Jesse. Judge Hodgman was really nice about this, but what were you doing hanging out with a

bunch of 14-year-olds? I'm going to say that's the fault of drama class. I'm pretty sure that's what actually happened. People of different ages, you know, all could take drama simultaneously. And I just happened to meet a bunch of 15 year olds when I was 17. You're basically that one king nerd from Freaks and Geeks, right? The one they all go to for advice? Sort of.

Also, I moved across country when I was 17. So I started junior year knowing nobody, and I just was drawn to these nerds very quickly. Well, I'm sorry that they've