Judge John Hodgman - The Clap Trap

Episode Date: December 22, 2011

Greg and Eric are longtime friends and sometime-bandmates.  They disagree on one area of performance; should members of the band ever ask the audience to clap along to their music?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, the clap trap. Greg and Eric are bandmates. Greg, the complainant, says that it's distasteful while in their band, in a performance, to ask the audience to clap along with a song. Eric says that it's perfectly normal. It's a fun way to make the audience part of the music-making process. Who is right and who is wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman enters the courtroom.

that is a slow clap for the first ever complainant and defendant to come together to buzz market their band on the judge john hodgman podcast in my eyes you're already both guilty but i will hear your dispute. Swear I'm in, Jesse. I just wanted to mention, John, I did get a nice email yesterday from Tim Harrington of Les Savvy Fab. Apparently, they've got a dispute they've been talking a lot about on the road. Oh, Les Savvy Fab, they're terrific. Yeah, unlike these guys. What's their website again?

I believe it's www.canadianpizzaandgarbage.com. All right, I'll check it out. Now swear I'm in, Jesse. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he has not clapped since he turned in the practice in favor of snapping in 1954? I do. I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman?

What's up, you groovy cats? How are you? Hello. Hello. Doing great. So far, so good. So, who is the complainant, please? Is it Greg? That is correct. And Eric, you are the defendant? I am the defendant.

And yet you are both in a band together. That's a pretty common situation, I think. That two people are in a band together. Spoken with the solipsism of a person in a band. Not everybody's in a band together. Some people are married. Some people are just riding the bus together. Some people don't even know each other.

But you two are in a band. Let's get the buzz marketing out of the way so that we can focus on the dispute. The name of the band is? It's The Capitalist Youth. The Capitalist Youth. And your music can be found? At thecapitalistyouth.com. Okay. And let's take a listen to one of your songs here. This was some evidence that you sent in. It is described by Greg as a so-so video of the capitalist youth performing a song.

Oh, what's that hard percussive sound in there? That one, two, three, one, two, three. What is that? Blocks of wood? It's multiple layers of people clapping their hands together. All right. This is the subject of the dispute now, right? The clapping. Greg, what's the problem? Okay, so Eric and I have known each other since seventh grade. We've been in a bunch of bands together. Name them all right now. Blue Shoes, Ex Nihilo, Concept Car. Concept Car? Yeah, I think you nailed it, yeah. That's it? Blue Shoes? Yeah, that's it. Yes. Ex Nihilo, Concept Car. Concept Car? Yeah. Yeah, I think you nailed it, yeah.

That's it? Blue Shoes, Ex Nihilo? Yes. Terrible. Concept Car, gimmicky. Now the capitalist youth? Mm-hmm. All right, that's a little better.

Okay, you guys have been playing in bands for a long time. Yes. And so with this most recent band, we were preparing for a show, and a lot of our songs involve that clapping where it's a bunch of the band members all clapping together. Okay. And so for the one song, we didn't have enough people, so there was one person, just literally one person clapping and didn't have that full sound that we were looking for. Wait a minute. What instrument do you play, Greg?

I play guitar, mostly. What instrument do you play, Eric? I play bass and banjo in the band. How can you guys be in the band together? One of you has a great Skype connection. One of you has a terrible Skype connection. You're also in different states, I think, right? Yes, true. Greg, you're in Philadelphia and Eric, you're in Tennessee. That's right. I recently moved here. Oh, okay. So the band is split up now? Has this been settled? We've lived in separate cities. There were people living in probably three or four different cities when we were working on the album together. And when we were playing shows together, there were people living in at least three different cities. So we've dealt with the long-distance band relationship before.

with the long-distance band relationship before. And the problem isn't, if I understand it correctly, Greg, the issue that sometimes you have hired a clapping section to join you on the many rhythmic clapping moments you have in your band, but there is sometimes clapping from the audience which you despise. Is that correct? That is not quite correct. All right, you correct me then. All right, so my me then. All right.

So my issue is with the requesting the audience to clap or sing or anything like that. I'm fine if they want to do it, if they just want to join in spontaneously. That's one thing. But I have an issue with asking the audience to clap along or sing or, you know. And this happens a lot. I would imagine it does if all of your songs have clapping in them. I also am the lead singer. So I think because of my... Really? Are you the lead singer? It's funny. I couldn't tell by the amount you were talking and interrupting your friend, Eric. Eric? Yes.

Yeah. The classic timid tinny whine of the bass player from Tennessee. I'm just going to let you speak for a second. When you guys were playing shows, and presumably if the band continues to play shows together, are you encouraging people to clap in the audience? Well, I've suggested it. I mean, I always defer to our great band leaders' decisions, of course, but band practices can get somewhat, well, they can get pretty angry, I'd say. During this one recent preparation for a show,

I was highly in favor of just throwing a little thing out there to the audience, saying, hey, if you feel like it, feel free to clap along. I mean, it's a simple enough clapping part. It was just clap on two and four. And I feel like it would have really both benefited the arrangement of the song and being a way for the audience to engage more with. You just suddenly gained a lot of either self-confidence or a better skype line i think uh i think i moved the microphone closer to my mouth oh well let's keep let's keep doing

that because you know what even though you're a bass player you deserve to have a say every now and then was the song that i played the one that caused the problem i i don't believe it was i believe it was another song called arcade all right is right. Is this the other? No, sorry. Greg. Oh, 12 Step. You know what? Maybe we need the band leader now. Band leader Greg.

Your Honor, I do want to say I think Eric may be trying to garner sympathy by having a poor Skype connection. You know, I feel no sympathy for anyone who has a poor Skype connection because they're well i think because they're ruining my podcast so you don't need to worry okay i'm gonna feel bad i feel bad for him because he's a bass player and he's and he's clear and he's clearly he's clearly ground into the dirt by you again and again since seventh grade but uh i have no sympathy for his skype connection don't worry about that but uh i would I would never try such a cold and callous technique. Well, all right, but let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. I have standards.

Order, I'll have. You say you wouldn't try that manipulative technique, Eric, but at the same time you said during rehearsal, things can get pretty heated as we discussed the hand clapping. Is that true or is that an exaggeration for podcasting purposes? That is actually true. Is that true, Greg? Yeah, I don't know about angry, but I mean, it could be tense.

Tense and heated, yeah. Who raised his or her voice? I probably did first. So your point, so let me do my imitation of you in band practice. Greg, why can't they clap along? For God's sake, Greg! Is that more or less what it's like? That's an uncanny imitation of me.

Greg, why can't they clap along? There's a few points here. I mean, I think it's... There aren't that many points. Answer my question. Oh, jeez. Jesse, Jesse, Jesse. Hang on, hang on.'s... There aren't that many points. Answer my question. Jesse, Jesse, Jesse, hang on. Both of you guys. Yes, sir. Remember when we had the two brothers who were in the

Jeff Lewis band? Yeah, Jeff Lewis and his brother. Only one of them was Jeff Lewis. Oh, Jeffrey Lewis. Yeah, he's great. Okay, this is why... Do you remember how those guys would never let me talk and they just yelled at each other the entire time? Yeah, it was like a fraternal intra-band conference.

Yeah, it's like dudes in bands think that they are in the spotlight the whole time. Well, guess what, rockers? You're not on stage right now. Stop interrupting me with your funny jokes. They get confused when somebody puts a microphone on. Yeah, I know. They think it's all stage banter. Well, no, I'm not doing a jazz odyssey of your stage banter. This is a courtroom that I made up in my mind. Yes, Your Honor. Greg, what's the problem with people clapping? Or more

importantly, what's the problem with Eric asking people to clap during your live performances? It is uncool and it is an imposition on the listener. It's more of a marketing strategy than a genuine audience interaction. I don't think it's much of a marketing strategy. Well, let me explain. All right, everybody. Everyone here at Arista Records, you've heard our sound. You probably wonder how we're going to get through to the people. Well, we have a Twitter and we have a Facebook and a bunch of followers. And we have this thing that we're going to get through to the people. Well, we have a Twitter and we have a Facebook and a bunch of followers.

And we have this thing that we're going to do. It's going to totally revolutionize live performance. It's called getting people to clap along with our songs. Now, I know that kids musicians have been doing this for years, but we're going to be the first nerdy, can't shut up, independent rock band to do it. Is that the marketing strategy, Eric? Well, I mean, I guess so. That's not how I see it.

It's uncool? Yeah. How would you describe your music? I would say garage folk. Garage folk. Cool. Yeah. Oh, nice.

That's much more concise than our last one. Stop. Stop it, guys. Stop needling each other. Is it that dudes and bands aren't able to connect to each other via Skype, so they have to use me to yell at each other? No, I mean, this is an ongoing thing that, you know, since that's the only reason I mentioned that Eric and I have been in bands together,

because it's a general difference between our approaches. So I was hoping to get an authoritative take on what is appropriate. So you're like a cool garage folk star who wants to keep it cool, and Eric is like a pandering kids musician? Is that the problem? He talks about connecting with the audience and stage presence and stuff like that as a business plan. Like, oh, we need to have a really great live show because that will help us become successful. So it seems like there's kind of an ulterior motive.

And when you're in a bar or wherever you're playing, and you're like, hey, guys, we need you to clap along on this next song, you're making the assumption that everybody there is number one, there to listen to you. And number two, that they've that's how they want to enjoy the music, which I, you know, that's not how I would. You don't want them to clap at all. No, no. I'm saying if I'm like if we were to take Kant's categorical imperative, if I was attending

a performance, I wouldn't. You're really going to whip out categorical imperative on me? was attending a performance, I wouldn't... You're really going to whip out categorical imperative on me? Yeah. I like it. I'll see where you're going with this. I couldn't will that every band in the world, when I go to see them perform, is going to ask me to

clap or sing along or do hand motions or something. That's not what I want to do when I go to see a band, so that's not something that I feel comfortable doing myself. So do you feel that it makes the audience feel awkward if they are asked to clap along? I mean, probably not all of them, but some of them.

Right. And Eric, are you asking people to do hand motions during the song? Let the record show that I've never once asked anyone to do hand motions during the song? Let the record show that I've never once asked anyone to do hand motions for anything. Eric, is this a mark? And you know what, I made fun of Greg for calling this a marketing maneuver. But now he's given me some specifics that suggest that maybe you do think that asking people to clap along as part of some weird social networking scheme that you read about in a paperback in a business section of Barnes & Noble. I don't see it as a callous marketing strategy. I see it as a way to increase the value and the enjoyment and the experience of seeing

a band live. I'm not doing that with the intent of selling more records or catapulting the capitalist youth to stardom. I'm just doing it because I think it's better that way. So, but, you know, you're dealing in a world that is not sort of like heavy metal, hard rock, right? You're dealing with a kind of down with the people, folk instrumentation, and you got a banjo in your band. So you're already grooving towards the sort of weird, we don't talk about freak folk anymore, but you know, that folk, that folky earthiness, right? Yeah, yeah. And in those sorts of situations, wouldn't clapping and hooting and hollering and square dancing and stomp dancing all be a part of the total experience?

Yeah. All right. I would say so. I think that's, but that's my issue is that I don't. You just don't want to have to beg for it. Well, not beg. I don't want to demand it. Eric, do you have any precedent that you'd like to cite

for people asking audience members to clap their hands in bands that are not either for children or on a cruise uh teaching people parts more intricate than a simple clap on two and four um and that would be ben folds of ben folds five is this a secret buzz market for Ben Folds now? Also, check him out on the sing-off. Yeah. Why don't you just describe to me what he does that is your evidence? So what he does is he'll actually teach the audience.

He'll break the audience up into three different sections, and he'll say people on the left, you're learning this part. People in the middle, you sing this part. People on the right, you sing this part. And he'll teach them either an the left, you're learning this part. People in the middle, you sing this part. People on the right, you sing this part. And he'll teach them either an intricate horn part or a background harmony. And the crowd gets into it, and they sing along, and everybody has a good time. And you enjoy that? I do enjoy that. Are you instructing people to clap in different tones or in different rhythms from different parts of the audience?

No, no, no. In fact, the song which we debated about was even simpler than that. Like I said, it was a simple clap on two and four. Yeah, two and four. I get it. Two and four. Simple as that. You didn't have to ask me, but then I'm a clapper by nature.

There you go. I'm terrible at it, though. So what would be justice for you, Greg? Me banning Eric from ever saying clap along? Yeah, I would like an injunction against Eric soliciting audience participation when we perform together. Of any kind? Yeah. As band leader, you would like me to prohibit your bassist slash banjo player from encouraging the audience to participate in any way and to not look at them and to get as far back to the back of the stage as possible and maybe play with his back to the audience? Would that be appropriate? Maybe he could play under a carpet or in another room.

Yeah, I mean... Yeah, he mean... Yeah! You could be behind a drape or something. Okay. What would be your imitation of how Eric has done it in the past? Okay, he'd be like this. Hey guys, we need your help on this next song. If you could clap along like this and then he would do something and that would be it.

Okay. Eric, I'd like to... Alright, that's fine. Everyone gets their day in court here. It sounded pretty good imitation to me. I mean, he certainly made his voice reedy and tinny and unlistenable.

Thank you. But how would you do it? Here's one example of how I might ask the audience to participate. So, on this next song, we have a clapping part, which is kind of integral to the song. If you feel like clapping along, go ahead. Kelly will be clapping to indicate how you should also clap. You know, sort of petered off at the end there.

I would probably be more confident on stage. What is this, a concert or a board meeting? Yeah, or an AA meeting. How would you introduce it on stage. What is this, a concert or a board meeting? Yeah, or an AA meeting. How would you introduce it on stage? Next song, it's a song. Fuck it, I don't care. I hope you like it.

I don't care if you don't. I'm playing it for me in your living room. Is that how you do it, or how would you do it? I would say, thank you. This next song is called 12 Step. All right. I think I have everything I need to know to make my decision. I'll be in chambers. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Greg, is your beef with anything that might encourage people to enjoy your music? No, no, not at all. Let's talk about where you would draw the line. Should people sing and dance?

Sure. Is all rap and gospel music invalid as artistic expression? No, not at all. I'll tell you a story. My friend Nathaniel has played in many bands, and we were roommates in college, and I took him to his first rap concert. As I recall, it was Talib Kweli and De La Soul

in a bar, more accurately a nightclub. And when we came home, I asked him, how did you like your first rap concert? And he said to me, oh, I really liked it. My favorite part was when they told me to do a thing and then I did it. Eric, do you think that your friend Greg is projecting his own discomfort onto the audience? I think he is. I think he's overly concerned with the appearance of being genuine. Does he hate fun? He doesn't hate all fun, but he hates a lot of fun. Broad swaths of fun.

Broad swaths of fun. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. My general feeling tends to lie with Eric, in the sense that I think I overheard Jesse Thorne making the same points, which is that participation in music is one of the things that gives music joy and conjures joy in a room. And I think that singing along is something that is a beautiful thing to happen in the lives of both musicians and people watching music. And it's something we've been so conditioned against because we feel that it's corny, that it requires a musician on stage to instruct us how to do it. And when it happens, it happens wonderfully. That's it.

You don't want a sing-along of every song. And there is also a long tradition of rock and roll music of not just not clapping, and not just not singing, but also hyper-serious dudes with esoteric t-shirts on and long stringy hair sitting in the back of the club, not saying anything and staring at their shoes. That is their form of appreciation. I think part of the issue here is that Greg and Eric disagree on the kind of band they're in. Sure, you might say garage folk, and of course everyone in America knows what that means,

but what does it really mean? Are you making music for people to enjoy and tap their toes to and sing along to and clap to and everything else, as the presence of a banjo in your band might suggest? Or are you making music for rock snobs to appreciate without saying a word? I don't think that you are completely opposed, but I think Greg is certainly more in the my music is pure camp. Greg is under the impression that any such pandering, I guess, to audiences having a good time might somehow cheapen the garage folk music that they're making. He's too cool for school. He's

too cool for garage folk music. So you will be surprised to learn that I find in the favor of the complainant, Greg. And here is why. On principle, my sympathy lies with the banjo player in almost every circumstance over the lead singer of anything. But Eric called in with a terrible Skype line, and therefore he loses. No. No. I am not that. I am not that corrupt yet. I am not that corrupt yet. Unfortunately, Eric, there is another factor at work here, which is the method by which you encourage people to participate. So, for example, you give the example of Ben Folds. It is part of his act on one song to teach people complicated horn parts that would otherwise, if he's playing solo and he doesn't have a horn section, he gets the audience to fill in. There is an empty space that the audience that exists in the song, the

audience is filling through instruction, and that instruction creates a bond between him and the audience. And it is unusual and not something that you've seen before. A band inviting the audience to clap along is, unfortunately, something we've seen so often that it is indeed a cliché. If you want people to clap along, there are ways to do it that are not a cliché, but the onus is on you to not become a clichéd bar band or cruise band or bar mitzvah band. a cliched bar band or cruise band or bar mitzvah band. And in this sense, I feel that Greg is exactly as cool as Garage Folk needs to be. Because while I don't agree with him that it is pandering in any way to connect with the audience, and that it is somehow cheapens the music to try to actually sell records, I do always rule against cliche. And to say, hey, everybody clap along is unfortunately, I think, a marker of a kind of band that you don't want to be because that kind of band

is not successful, at least not in the way I think either of you want to be successful. In the same way, you wouldn't want everyone to sing along with every song or clap along with every song. You have to create in your show a moment where clapping along becomes clearly the thing to do. And I don't think you have any better example than you already have, which is put your wife on stage to clap along. The people who want to clap along will. Because frankly, there is nothing worse. There's only one thing worse, I think, than to cheesily instruct people to clap along to a song that will instantly be apparent that they should be clapping along to. Even if you hadn't given the instruction, then people clapping along out of duress. And then that sad sort of like dying clap as people finally give up with it. of like dying clap as people finally give up with it. Eric, I think the thing that unfortunately sealed your fate in this case was your audition for how you would introduce the clapping. You did

not do it. I look, I, I have to be completely candid with you because I want you guys to succeed. That didn't sound good. It didn't sound like a band that I want to see. I understand. I'm not saying that Greg is, with his introduction, is some genius at stage banter. But at least it was acceptable. What you were doing was, I think, unfortunately, kind of... Look, I have kids who go to grade school, and it felt a little bit like grade school concert to me.

Ouch. I'm sorry. Look, call me the Simon Cowell of my own podcast, but I must call them as I see them. Is it too late to make a Simon Cowell reference? It kind of is, isn't it? I've got to come up with something new. late to make a Simon Cowell reference? It kind of is, isn't it? I got to come up with something new. So I think, and unfortunately, while engaging with the audience, Greg, and you should listen to this,

is an important piece of showpersonship that any successful performer should figure out a way to do that is unique and interesting and most of all fun and engaging and appropriate to the music, doing it just for the sake of doing it in a cliched way is unfortunately going to mark your band in a bad light. And you don't want that to happen. And I don't want it to happen either, because I feel offended that you are using this ginned up non-argument to buzz market your band on my podcast. But I do find something interesting about what you're discussing, and I do think your music is pretty good. So I find in the favor of the complainant, Greg, I enjoin that Eric no longer ask people to clap at songs. And I don't want to prohibit you from talking on stage completely. I'm certainly not going to put you under a rug.

But Greg, your onus for having won this argument is that you need to incorporate some measure of audience participation in a way that suits your band and suits your showmanship. And I think that you should try to find a way to do it. Maybe ask people to whistle along. I've done it and it's awesome. Be creative with it, but do not be afraid of the audience loving you

and wanting to be a part of what you're doing because that truly will make you a successful band. This is the sound of a gravel. Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all. Please rise. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Eric, you've been issued a stunning rebuke. Do you think it was maybe in part because of your lackluster performance when trying to demonstrate how one would ask the audience to clap along with this song? I think it clearly was.

That was stated in the judgment. But to be honest, I'm actually quite happy with this ruling because in the first place, all I really wanted to do was to encourage Greg to reach out to the audience in his own way. And all I could find was a suggestion to ask them to clap on a song that needed clapping. And now it's Greg's responsibility to find his own creative way to engage the audience.

Wait a minute there, Benjo. Wait a minute. I am prohibiting you from asking the audience to clap. I am encouraging. I am encouraging Greg to take what are clearly his already superior show person ship instincts and try to find a way to open it up to the audience. I am not ordering him to do anything.

Fair enough. I'm sorry. It pains me to beat up on a banjo player. I think you guys should win. But I don't mind beating up on a bass player, and your Skype line is terrible. Back to Chambers. Greg, how are you feeling?

Well, I'm feeling pretty good obviously this is a bit of a mixed victory since uh judge hodgman feels that i was taking the wrong approach to audience interaction you sound excited about the possibility with of connecting with your audience well i mean there is always hand motions i guess, I guess it's off the chambers for us. Good luck, boys. You're destined for superstardom. Yeah. I'm Jesse Thorne, America's radio sweetheart.

And I'm Jordan Morris, boy detective. Every week on our show, Jordan, Jesse, go. I would say that we share a little slice of our hearts. Yeah. And a little peek at our dicks. But every week we have a podcast where we have fun and funny conversations with guests from the worlds of comedy, film, television. It's all online at MaximumFun.org or just search for Jordan, Jesse, go in iTunes. line at maximumfun.org or just search for Jordan Jesse Go in iTunes.

Hi, it's nice to be back here in chamber. I got a little heated. No, this is for you, Jesse. Good job. Good job to us all. Yeah, no, I was just back here snapping my fingers and tapping my toes and getting ready to sing along to some docket clearing. Are you concerned that you're just pandering to our audience by trying to engage them? Well,

come on, everybody. Clap along to the docket clearing. Here's our first question. Okay, go ahead. I'm not going to stop. Oh, wait. Before we get to the first question, we have congratulations for Mike, who won the game of Beard Chicken. Oh, that's right.

Mike Bilder, who I pronounced the winner of Beard Chicken. He sent you a photograph of himself at his Thanksgiving table with the beard. He says, it's been quite a journey. And just this past week week one of the kids in the group i volunteer with said that i look like brad pitt oh so those of you who don't remember it was a a game of beard chicken between three dudes in college the only people who would play this game sure and they in which they were uh they were going to go without shaving for a certain period of time, and due to a technicality, Mike's winning was under dispute. And I pronounced him the winner of Beard Chicken,

but by that time he had shaved, which was part of the technicality. So I said in order to maintain the title, he would now have to grow a full beard. And if he took a picture of himself wearing this beard at his Thanksgiving table with his family, I would give him a signed copy of my book, That Is All. And that is what I am doing right now, signing it for him and saying, well done, Mike Builder. Here's a question from Carly. She says she and her housemate Lauren disagree about the proper use of the term track pant. She says, on my rare days off from running a growing yoga studio, yeah, brag much?

I occasionally hang around the house in my cozy cotton pants with elastics on both ankles and around the waist. I refer to these as track pants. Lauren asserts that the term track pants should only be given to tearaway style pants, specifically those with stripes down the leg, and that I am wearing sweat pants. When asked if she reserved this term for Adidas pants only, according to her stripe description, she clarifies that track pants do not have to be Adidas brand, but should almost certainly have stripes. Yeah, well, you're asking the right person.

I am extremely athletic, because, you know, I run my own Bikram Pilates pit, and I am often- I'm a vlogger there on weekends. Yeah, and I, am often wearing stretchy clothing in order to highlight my incredible physique. And so I will say what Lauren describes to my mind, cotton pants with elastics on both ankles and around the waist are sweat

pants. Track pants, I think, are something you would wear before going to work out at the track. Whether they're breakaway, whether you take them off, I think stripes really do make the track pants. Probably sweatpants were an early form of track pants, but at this point, sweatpants are so universally used by non-track and field athletes. That is to say, obese people on airplanes, me when I'm feeling lazy, you when you're not running your yoga studio, they're more leisure wear. I think we now call those sweatpants, even though, frankly,

you don't do a lot of sweating in them. This one isn't technically something that someone wrote in, but I'm going to put it in the form of a letter. Dear Judge John Hodgman, I'm an audience member who hasn't even bothered to visit maxfundstore.com to take a look at the amazing John Hodgman posters and prints available there. What? Sincerely, a listener. Projected. They haven't even bothered to go over to Patoko?

Yeah, some of these people, not only have they not bought a t-shirt, they haven't even gone to maxfundstore.com to look at the t-shirt to see the transformation. Maxfundstore.com is really one of the first places you should go while planning your holiday consumer season shopping list. And not only are there tons of amazing products there that you would be proud to wear and or use. There's also a brand new product, which Jesse refers to, which is both the poster that was designed by the amazing Chicago graphic designer Tom DJ of Bossman Graphics, And the resulting T-shirt that shows me going through my transformation from the spectacled Tweety nerd to degenerate-looking, deranged millionaire, mustachioed, sunglassed nerd. And Tom is an amazing artist.

And I would not have put forward any merchandise unless I was so thrilled by what he had done. And as much to honor him as to honor Max Funn or Judge Sean Hodgman, I hope you'll go take a look and look at all the great products. They really are fantastic. And actually, they make the best Christmas cards. Listen up, goofus. You got 50 bucks from your gamma. Go to MaxFunnStore.com.

He's the bad bailiff. I'm the good bailiff. If like it take a look if you don't like it i'll pound you look i don't know how much longer i can hold bailiff jesse off you really ought to go buy something just for your own good i'm trying i'm looking out for you here man so judge hodgman do you remember last year around the holidays when we had a case where a paterfamilias wanted to have a very particular and unusual celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ? I do remember. It's in fact the one memory that I keep from last year. I otherwise threw out all the memories of the year, as I do every New Year's Eve. But this one, I decided to keep around with me because if I remember correctly, Jason

from Huntsville, Alabama wanted to forbid his family from decorating the Christmas tree before December 24th because of some weird marginal Catholic theology he had dug up in a book under his bed. And if I remember correctly,

I prohibited him from doing it and I allowed his wife to decorate the Christmas tree. but I offered him the option that if he wanted a joyless Christmas season in which to contemplate apocalypse, which I think is what he wanted, that he could instead put up an alternate tree, a sadness tree, a dead limb or tree in a depressing mudroom or shed. And I believe he did. Why do you ask? Oh, I just happened to have called him on Skype a minute ago.

Oh, Jason, are you there? Yes, I am. Oh, well, happy sadness season. Ironically, happy sadness season to you. Actually, not the correct use of the word. That's ironic. Oh, but then it is a correct use of wait a minute it actually is ironic because uh the audience knew that he was going to say that and

we didn't there you go uh so how are you sir i'm well how's your sadness season going this year uh it is even sadder than i hoped that it would be It is even sadder than I hoped that it would be. It's a sadness miracle. It is. It is. I know that you put up a sadness tree last year because you sent me a picture of it. Describe that tree to me. The last year's tree?

Okay, it was a limb of indeterminate species. It was very depressing. Ghouhoulish even, I would say. It was horrible, and it did the job. And so this year, I wanted to ask, have you put up a sadness tree again? Has this become a tradition in your household? Yes. I'm very glad to hear that. What do you offer to the careless god of sadness today? Well, what is in my sadness shed today is actually a friend of mine has a bamboo grove behind his house.

And I'd actually come to his house to try to find maybe another tree limb, and I noticed this black shoot of bamboo. It was ominously black. Like demon bamboo? I would call it mournful. I mean, it wasn't evil. It just looked sad. All right. Was it, did it stand apart from the other bamboo?

Like were all the other bamboo yellow and being munched by pandas? And then there was this one lone stalk of ebon bamboo yeah the other bamboo did not let it join in any of their bamboo games so yes so i took a hacksaw and uh ended its life and uh brought it back to my sadness shit and it is there it is it is there uh decaying even as i talk to you so how do you how do you observe a sadness tree ritual is that what you call it sadness tree ritual no how do you go out you go out there every now and then and and like for an hour a day and contemplate death or what do you do well i i go in there and most of the times I'm going in there for you know to maybe

flip a fuse that has you know been triggered when we tried to plug something in or you know like Christmas lights on your actual Christmas tree yes or just go out to the shed to get something you know shedly and I'll see it there

and I'll just look at it and I always know it's, and I'll just look at it, and I always know it's there. Like, I can feel it out there, but what's weird about the thing now is it's kind of turning white as it decays, and the leaves, they look like they're alive, but if you touch them, they're all, I mean, you know as soon as you touch them, so I find that poignant. It's like a cicada shell. Yeah. Oh, and it is deliciously sad.

So your sadness tree is turning from black to white. Yes. As we approach the birth of Christ. So I think it's appropriate. And was I more or less correct on your theological reasoning when you wanted to prohibit your family? Remind me, do you have kids? Yes. How many kids do you have?

Two teenage boys. And you bring them out to the sadness tree and show them what their father has done? They know it's there. I'm leaving that up to them as whether or not they choose to go visit it or not go visit it that's very religiously tolerant of you so maybe they'll find sadness in their life maybe they won't, not everyone gets the call but was my reasoning more or less accurate

that theologically you wanted to prohibit your family from enjoying Christmas because it's a time to have quiet contemplation about the birth of Christ and the forthcoming end of the world. Wasn't that something? Revelation figured into it. Can you just remind me? Yeah, you're close because the season of Advent, you know, we had the readings and have to do with the first Advent of Christ and the second coming and the end of the world. I mean, it's all that stuff about, you know, things being thrown into ovens and, you know, sheep and goats being separated out. Let me stop you there and give you another chance to explain yourself without sounding like a madman on a street corner.

Let me put this, I got to put this sign down. Hold on. Try using simple declarative sentences Can I still wear Can I ask that you put the sandwich board back on Or just put clothes on One or the other I'll put on sackcloth In two or three simple sentences

Explain what it was you were trying to Convey when you wanted to when i forbade happiness when you forbade happiness in your christmas home because you weren't against you weren't against having a tree no you weren't against the the druidic practice of a pagan ritual in your home you just didn't want it to be all gussied up well i just wanted i didn't want here's the thing because in our society, Advent just kind of doesn't exist. Like, after Halloween, it becomes Christmas. And then it's just Christmas up until Christmas Day, and then everybody just kind of puts Christmas away.

And I wanted to not lose Advent, which Advent is a more penitential season, more somber season. And at the end, you get to pop the cork, as it were, and have Christmas. And then we have it for 12 days after that, you know. And are you celebrating the 12-day Christmas? Oh, yes. And is there one message of sadness that you'd like to bring to our listeners as we go into year two of sadness tree well i would like to bring almost a little self-serving message if i may please that's because what could be more christmassy i know yeah um first of all follow me on facebook

no please no i'm not gonna do i'm not gonna do any any self-buzz marketing Facebook. No, please. I'm not going to do any self-buzz marketing here. No. If my lovely wife, when my lovely wife hears this, or if any of my friends hear this, the only thing that could make

my sadness display complete would be to have a copy of That Is All underneath it. And my birthday is Christmas Eve, the day before Christmas. Oh. And that's still in enough time where I could still have one last blast of sadness. So if my lovely wife or someone close to me... Well, wait a minute.

Do you not have a copy of That Is All, my book about wealth, wine, sports, and the end of the world? I actually do not yet. But I was hoping maybe that she would... Maybe this would be an opportunity for me to hint around for her to maybe put that under my tree. Or maybe some sadness season elf will sign a copy of that book and federal express it to you in Huntsville, Alabama, to whatever local railroad station you use to pick up your mail. And then you can put it under your sadness tree.

And then when Christmas is over, it can become your new Bible. It's a sadness season miracle, everybody. your new Bible. It's a sadness season miracle, everybody. I'm dreaming of a white piece of bamboo that used to be deathly black just like the one in Jason's shed.

Well, I hope that that satisfies your sadness shopping list and thank you very much for talking to us again. Thank you very much for talking to us again. Thank you very much for remembering me in this time. Happy birthday and happy sadness. Back at you.

It's up for the birthday part. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support this show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Matt Gourley. His great podcast, by the way, is called Super Ego. You can find it in iTunes or online at GoSuperEgo.com. You can find John Hodgman online at AreasOfMyExpertise.com. If you have a case for

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