Judge John Hodgman - The Downer Party

Episode Date: May 20, 2015

Is it possible to live a birthday-free life? Is it possible to acknowledge being another year older without all the birthday trappings? A couple brings their case before the judge.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, the Downer Party. Sod brings the case against his wife, Zaba. Sod prefers not to celebrate birthdays and would like to keep the hoopla surrounding them to a minimum. Zaba, on the other hand, enjoys the more traditional birthday trappings. They can't agree on the best way to acknowledge their children's birthdays in the future. How should they? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the

courtroom. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you, happy birthday to you. It's someone's birthday somewhere, but just one person, weirdly, today. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? Yes, I do. I do, yes. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he celebrates one birthday per month over 11 per year?

Sure, sure. Had to do some quick math for that one. Very well, Judge Hodgman? Saad and Zaba, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can either of you name the piece of culture that I was referencing

as I entered the courtroom? Zaba, you bring this case before me. You get first crack at this. Can you name the piece of culture that I was referencing? No. Saad, this is unprecedented. Seems like you have a very clear path to victory. Are you going to go through that door?

Wait, what am I saying? I'm lost. What did I miss? Can you name the song I was singing? Oh, oh, name the song you were singing. Well, it was Happy Birthday. Right. Yes.

That's not the answer that I'm looking for. I was singing Happy Birthday to You over and over again to a very popular tune, but you've already given it two shots, no and happy birthday. So I'm afraid this is going to go all the way over to Sod Sod. I really have no idea. I'm going to hum it to you. See if you recognize this tune. You know, better, I'm going to scat sing it to you. Do-wop, do-wop, do-wop-do. Skiddly-dee, skiddly-dee, skiddly-dee-boo-bop.

Dee-dop-ba-doo-bop-ba-doo-bop-ba-doo. Hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm. Oh, man. Zaba, I'm going to give you a third chance. Twinkle, twinkle, little star. All guesses are wrong. I tricked you all. Well, it is twinkle, twinkle, little star.

And also, ba-ba, black Star. And also, Ba Ba Black Sheep. And also, The Alphabet Song. All have the same tune, which is all borrowed from Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart's variations upon a French folk melody called A Vous Derais-Je Maman. A Vous Derais-Je Maman. A vous dirai-je maman? French, French, French, French, French, French, French. So I had an insurance policy. Because I knew, I would

imagine anyone would have gotten the alphabet song, Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, Baba Black Sheep, which all have the same tune, if you've never noticed, they do. And then I had this backup, which was this weird French folk song that I could go to in case, well, in the obvious case that one of you would get it. But Saad, it's interesting to me that you didn't recognize the tune Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. Where do I find you both

in the world? Where do you live, both of you? We're in Abu Dhabi in the United Arab Emirates. All right. And did you grow up there, Saad? No, we moved here about five years ago. And that was the first time we were here. Where did you move from? We moved from D.C. Is it possible that for either of you, the English alphabet song was not the first alphabet song you heard in your life?

No, I should have, like, when I usually don't, I never get pop trivia. And after I find out the answer, I'm like, oh, I should have known it. But in this case, I should have actually known it. Because we sing these songs all the time. Yeah, I mean, we sing it all the time with our daughter. So it's just. Right, you have children. Yes, and I'm just musically an idiot.

Oh. I wish I had an excuse, but I don't. Oh, that's fine. I like it when people don't have excuses. So, but I didn't sing the alphabet. Obviously I sang the words happy birthday to you over and over again. Why did I do that? This is barely a commercial enterprise. Why did I do that? This is barely a commercial enterprise. And I don't want to get sued by Warner Chapel Music for singing their copyrighted song, Happy Birthday to You, written by Patty and Mildred Hill sometime in the late 19th century, first published as Good Morning to All in 1912 and then Happy Birthday to You in 1935. as Good Morning to All in 1912 and then Happy Birthday to You in 1935. I don't want to get sued by singing that song in this public venue of a fake internet courtroom

that is also a barely functioning business. The fact that Warner Chapel Music collects $2 million a year in royalties and permissions for licensing Happy Birthday to you to movies tv shows public events and that sort of thing uh is considered to be one of the the great examples of of copyright law out of control uh since uh this is obviously essentially an american folk song and it has been many many years since the death of both Mildred and Patty Hill, more than the typically allowed. But the Copyright Extension Acts of 1975 and 1988 or 98, I should say. I got one of those wrong, but just listen to the one I

got right. Very controversially allowed a lot of companies, big companies, to renew copyrights on things that arguably should now be in the public domain. That's why I, John Hodgman, purposefully came up with a podcast-safe, fair-use, public-domain birthday song, which is Happy Birthday to You, sung over and over again to the tune of À vous dorer, je m'amends. And I think this thing's really going to catch on. The question now is whether it's going to catch on in your household. Because the dispute here is that Zaba wants to celebrate birthdays and Saad, you don't want to.

Zaba, you bring the case before the court. Saad is your husband, correct? Yes. Okay. Why does he hate birthdays and joy? You know, he's just kind of a scrooge. No, you know, I think he can probably make his case better than I can. But, you know, he doesn't like social norms as a general matter. He doesn't like social norms as a general matter.

And this is a social norm that he has some principled arguments against. Saad, what do you think? I'll let him make those arguments. But Saad, is that true? You don't like social norms? No, I would say that I'm skeptical of social norms. And I look for some personal meaning in them. And if I don't find it, then I ignore them. I wouldn't say I'm opposed to social norms. All right. So Saad, you have the more controversial position here. You don't want,

you don't like celebrating birthdays. You don't celebrate your own birthday, and you don't wish to celebrate your children's birthdays. Is that correct? That's right. How old are your children? The older, the elder is almost four and the younger is nine months. So we have a, we have a daughter who's almost four and a son who's nine months. And how long have you been married? We've been married for 10 years.

We just had our 10th anniversary a couple of weeks ago. Congratulations. Well, for heaven's sakes, let's not mention it why should we celebrate that what's that what's the big deal oh my why are you trying to hold me to your weird social norm i don't care about your anniversary it's just a just something made up to sell greeting cards cards. Yeah, really interesting. Yeah. Obviously you think your, your marriage is better than your children, but what is it? What is it about birthdays specifically that you find to be objectionable, Saad? And here, please make your true principled arguments. Sure. Um, so I was, I was thinking about it today and I think it's so I'll make my argument in five parts and I'll try to do it quickly. No, thank you. Everyone can never mind to call me. No, thanks. No, no, that's fine. That's fine. Five part arguments are not allowed. Pick three parts.

Okay, so I think birthdays are, so I think they're kind of dumb. They're unnecessary. They're materialistic and narcissistic. So let me explain each of those quickly. I think they're dumb because I don't really get them. I just don't like get the idea of celebrating myself for being a year older. That just feels like both a strange and low threshold for a celebration. I think they're unnecessary because, you know, birthdays are about having fun and feeling special. And I think those things are things that should be part of every day. One of the things that we've really, that

you kind of get when you're around small children is that there's so much joy in everyday life, right? Our four-year-old has fun doing everything. Like she has fun opening the door. She has fun listening to the same story a million times. And so when everything is fun, do you really need a day that's, you know, designated for fun? I think they're kind of materialistic. They've become about getting stuff, whether it's kids kids birthdays where kids get stuff from uh kids get toys and other stuff or adults um uh looking to get expensive gifts um i'm all for gifts i think gifts are a great way to show love and affection um but i don't like it when there's a sense of entitlement right okay sense of entitlement got Right. Okay. Sense of entitlement. Got it. Okay. And then narcissism.

And then there's like the narcissism around birthdays and, you know, we're all narcissistic and that's fine. We all love attention and we want to feel loved. But I think birthdays introduce this arbitrary psychological need for attention once a year, which I think is kind of just unhelpful and unhealthy. So I know people who have actually been depressed on their birthdays because it didn't meet their expectations, right? Like their friends didn't throw them a spectacular enough surprise. That's not why they're depressed. They're depressed because they're dying.

You understand? They're depressed because they're one step closer to the grave. In my opinion. I don't know your friends. How old are you? I'm 35. expectations and they and they expected a huge fun time and all their friends to love them and everything had to be perfect and it wasn't because nothing ever is versus uh maybe your friends who are a little older who are just uh terrified of death and they realize they're getting closer every year but i i i apologize i stipulate that there may be just some terrible human monsters in your circle of friends who get really upset because their birthdays aren't. I think people invest too much into the idea of a birthday and then can be disappointed when it

doesn't live up to it. And so I'm all for all the things that make up a birthday. So I'm for having fun and spending time with loved ones and telling people they're a special part of your life and giving gifts. I just want to do that outside the confines of this social convention, right? I think both because it feels more natural, but also because it's more meaningful. I think when people have to do stuff because it's a birthday, even if you really care about someone, I think it undermines your intent. I'm going to interrupt you, Saad. It feels more natural to you to willfully defy social convention that's accepted by basically everyone else? I couldn't have said it better jesse all right so specificity is the soul of narrative there clearly some uh birthday conventions that you have no problem with such as expressing love and affection and congratulations and some that you do have problems with what specifically would you ban from your children's birthday celebrations going forward from now on until

their old age or until they get the hell out of your house well i i think i would want to raise them birthday free. I understand what that means in theory, but what does that mean in practice, Saad? So I think that means when it's their birthday, we wouldn't have a birthday celebration as most people think of a celebration. We'd acknowledge it. We'd say, you know, you turned four today. That's really exciting. Why even give them that much? Because she really wants to know.

Like, her age is really important to her. She wants to turn four. Why do you think? Yeah, maybe a good reason to celebrate her birthday because she's super excited about it. And she can't wait to be a year older. Why do you think that milestone is meaningful to her? Because she's been programmed by social convention? I mean, it could be.

Honestly, I don't know the answer now that I think about it. I think it's a combination. So I think it's... It must be your wife's poisoning influence. Her pro-birthday influence has already poisoned your four-year-old's mind with an arbitrary number and an expectation of cake? Well, what's poisoned her are the, you know, two dozen or three dozen odd birthdays she's attended in the past year. Right. So my question, I heard you list a lot of different birthday things that you like to do on an everyday basis, like celebrate the love of your family and celebrate being alive and hugging each other.

I heard neither cake nor ice cream in that list of things that you like. Or party hats. If you ask me what's important about birthdays, the first thing I would say is ice cream. The second thing I would say is cake. So I would totally agree. So my personality is like, I want every day. So I think about what makes me happy. And I want every day to have that. So I actually have ice cream every single day. Because I love ice cream. That's true. Ice cream is really good. And do you ever think about what makes other people happy or just you, Saad?

I celebrate everyone's birthdays. I just think my kids are in a different category because I can tell them what to think about life until they're a little older. I celebrate Zaba's birthday and we have fun with it. Yeah, we do celebrate my birthday. You do. We do. Okay, Zaba, if I may ask, how old are you? I am 32. All right. And how did you celebrate your 32nd birthday? Oh, man, I don't remember. I think I probably

went to dinner with some friends. I think that's what I did. I think we went out to dinner. Yeah. Did you have cake and ice cream? Yeah. Yeah. I got some cake. I got some ice cream. I had some happy birthday wishes.

You know, it was nice. There were no party hats. Right. You had party hats? No. No party hats. But it was pretty good nonetheless. had party hats no no party hats but it was pretty good nonetheless so do you do you think that do you think your four-year-old daughter and and i mean she's a real human being now unlike your baby

son who's just a weird thing but lovely i'm sure uh do you think your four-year-old daughter would be satisfied celebrating her birthday by going out to a nice restaurant with a few close friends? No, not exactly. I mean, I think... What birthday party do you want for your daughter? We're going to break it down. You're going to list each thing you want, and then I'm going to go over to Saad and say yes or no. Saad, presume for the moment that all of your decisions are binding.

This is your best case scenario. Do you understand? So don't dither or think about it and try to figure out what I'm going to react to or not or anything else. where birthday is redefined as a daily expression of love and personal ice cream eating with no special celebration. When Zaba goes through each element that she would like to have for your daughter's next birthday, which I see here is coming up in July. Yes. I will turn to you and say Saad, yay or nay.

Okay? I'm ready. You understand? Don't think about the repercussions and Zaba, don't fight with him about this. I just want to get there's a lot of mushiness in Saad's

thinking that has made me hard for me to understand exactly what he wants and what he doesn't want. A lot of mushiness maybe because he eats ice cream every day. He seems to be a pretty self-indulgent guy. Maybe he's never had to discipline his thinking. So I want discipline, okay? Zaba, starting out.

So number one, I want a party. That's too vague. I want to throw a party. Okay. But you need to be specific. Specific. Okay. Okay.

So I want to invite friends and family. I'm finding the crux here. And the whole thing here is that you guys can't come to any sort of agreement because your terms are so vague you need to you need to own you need to own like because when you say i want a party basically what you're saying is everyone in society has a party right you're a monster for not wanting a party and and sod will simply say no i i'm happy to have a party, but a party that's different. And you say, different how? And it's like just an expression of love.

And it's like, what does this even mean? So I want to hear about everything. So I want to hear about number of invitees. I want to hear about how many kids or other kids, primarily other kids, their parents? Okay, so number one, go. Number one, I would like to invite both children and adults to my home. Approximately 10 children and approximately maybe their parents, 10 to 20 adults to my home. Good.

Saad, yay or nay? Nay. Okay. That was easy. Good. No judgment. Moving on. Okay.

Next, I would like to decorate my home for the birthday with balloons, maybe some streamers and other beautiful adornments. Saad, yay or nay? Nay. All right. Next. Okay. I would like to have a party theme that will include those decorations as well as party favors. And we'll also tie into the invitation that would go to our friends and family. Can you give me an example of a theme? Yeah, I have one. How about the lives of Patty and Mildred Hill who wrote the happy birthday to you song? That could be the theme.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. I think she wants like a more party friend, like something for a kid's party. I'm thinking Grey Gardens theme. Ah! Yeah, yeah. Great idea. But what theme would you choose, Zaba? You know, I'm pretty flexible on the theme.

It could even just be colors or it could be, you know, circus theme or, I don't know, lion, zoo, animal theme. You know, circus theme or I don't know, lion zoo animal theme. You know, something child friendly. You guys really deal in the abstract. What theme? Colors? The theme would be, I think, concepts. Okay. I would like the theme for the next birthday party to be zoo animals. Okay. Saad, yay or nay?

I mean, I like zoo animals. You have to say yay or nay. Yay or nay. Confirmed. He likes zoo animals. Saad, you clearly are struggling with the moral dilemma. What did he say? Sounds like there's a horse in this zoo.

He said nay. Nay. Denied, zoo animals. Okay. So next I would like cake, chocolate cake specifically with buttercream frosting. I can't say no to chocolate cake. With vanilla ice cream. So that's yay on the cake and ice cream?

Well, Sod's going to have that anyway that day. Whatever day you hold it, Sod's going to be sitting down to a big slice of cake with ice cream on top. Anyway, I'm sort of picturing sods lifestyle as being Tom Hanks from big. Yeah. What about presence? Will every child bring a toy to your daughter? I actually do not feel the need for gifts.

I probably would prefer no gifts or like a, you know, yeah, I would prefer no gifts. You're going to need to present a clear policy if you want to not receive gifts. It's entirely possible to say no gifts, please. But if you say maybe no gifts, then everyone will definitely bring a gift. No, no. You know what I would prefer? I would prefer my friends to make a donation to a charity or do something, you know, along those lines instead of gift my child something that she probably already has and will play with for five minutes. Okay.

And Saad, yay or nay on that? I can do that. Yay. Yay. Yay. Anything else, Ava? I would like to sing the happy birthday song. Oh, man. Whoa.

Saad's worried about the licensing issues. Saad, I take that's a nay. That's the thing I have the most trouble with, actually. All right. Tell me why you have the most trouble with that. I don't know. I'm totally overthinking this. But I so Jonathan Goldstein on his last episode of Wiretap, like he had a segment about words

or phrases that we should just retire because they don't like they don't really make sense. And I think like he talks about like, you know, have a safe trip, like, like, you know, like saying that to someone will not make them have a safe trip like like you know like saying that to someone will not make them have a safe trip and i'll probably make them worried that they're gonna die um and so saying happy birthday like i just don't get it like do we really want someone to feel happier on that day than they did on the day before or like do we think we can make them happy by saying that i don't know it just feels like uh i don't get it. First of all, you understand that Jonathan Goldstein is a very talented

radio broadcaster with a great show on the CBC called Wiretap. He's a friend of mine, a friend of the show. I like him very much. But you know, this guy just has to come up with stuff to say all the time. It doesn't mean it's all...

You know what I mean? It's like me. Sometimes you just got to fill things... You just got to fill stuff out by singing... I know, but once in a while... Happy birthday to you to the alphabet song. Well, it clearly resonated with you. But I think maybe more with you than any other human,

including Jonathan Goldstein. Did Jonathan Goldstein actually say we should stop saying happy birthday? No, he ran out of time, but I think that's probably one of the exact words. I think that's what he was, you think that's what he was winding up to? You presume he would have said that

based on the general tenor of his other remarks, which he did choose to say on his show. Well, there's probably an uncut version of his podcast somewhere. And come on, let's be honest, we can't imagine him saying anything that begins with happy. Yeah, that's true. Or at least a character

on his show. That's pretty fair. So let me lay out what I take since you're having a hard time articulating the specifics of your preferred birthday anti-celebration in the same way Zaba laid out hers. This is what I take away from how you would like to celebrate your daughter's birthday.

First of all, you, you, there would be no gifts. There would be no party. That is to say, there would be an observation, right? There would be an anniversary of birth observation that would be emotionally neutral. There would be cake and ice cream, but no more than any other day. Gifts would take the form of enforced donations to charity by friends and family who would not be allowed into the house or even get a chance to see the child whose birthday they are honoring. And any expression of affection or congratulation would have to be made in terms that do not involve the words birthday or happy in order to make sure that that expression is an authentic and fully formed and true expression of affection and congratulations, which is, I suppose to say,

to sit your child down in a room without any decorations and put your hand on her shoulders and say, I observe you are a year older. I have fondness for you as your father. I trust your mother feels the same. You will get nothing other than this gift of my speaking to you on this day, which is officially the year of your birth,

now have the same cake and ice cream allotment you always have at this hour every day. Have I described the Sodian dystopia that you foresee? I think I can rest my case. No, I think that's almost right. But I think I'd be excited to tell her and we'd like jump around or dance or I'd give her a piggy ride. And she'd be really excited to find out and I'd be excited to talk to her about it. You want it to be an honestly happy day and not a manufactured happiness.

happy day and not a manufactured happiness. And party to you suggests manufacture of happiness. It does for a couple of reasons. A, because of all the trappings that just, you know, that everyone just has to do without. Saad, it's fine. You don't have to give me a couple of reasons. I understand the reasons. I'm with you on this. There is an element of phoniness to all birthday parties, but especially kids' birthday parties. And they don't fully appreciate, they're excited about their birthday, but they don't fully appreciate what's going on.

And you go to a lot of them, weekend after weekend. And let's face it, they are loud and dirty affairs. How much of this, Saad, is influenced by the fact that you don't want to have kids in your house throwing up ice cream? Because they spun around too much or smacked their heads into someone else's head on the bouncy castle. Yeah, I think that there's a lot of pretend like there's a little bit of pretending around birthdays. Right. So, for example, when people have kids birthdays, like a three year old,old can't really form peer-based relationships. I can barely have peer-based relationships. I'm 35.

And so, like, you invite all these kids and you pretend they're friends with your kid. You may be an anomaly. Yeah, yeah. In terms of forming. Yeah, speaking of crux finding, Judge Hodgman. You know, I completely disagree with that. No, I completely disagree with that because I think it's not that people aren't aren't real about when they're sharing birthday wishes. It's just an opportunity to do so, because even though, yes, in an ideal world, everyone would

tell you, you know, you know how how they feel about you and, you know, make you happy and do nice things for you, you for you on random occasions. That's just not the way the world works and that doesn't happen. And a birthday is a good day to do that. And people show up and they do it and they're genuinely happy and they want to celebrate that individual on that day because it's just a good day to do it. I think birthdays are really an opportunity for acquaintances to pretend to care about you. It's like, you know how a sports team goes to the Super Bowl and there are all these bandwagon fans?

It's like, that's how birthdays are. People who care about you make you feel loved all year round. And that's the birthdays when... Yeah, but then the people who love you also make you feel, you know, extra loved on that day because they do some extra special stuff. Alright, wait a minute. I gotta take control of this courtroom.

Because you guys are talking to each other. That's not how it's supposed to be happening. Saad. Zaba, basically Saad just said most of your friends are phonies. Yeah, basically. Who don't most of your friends are phonies. Yeah, basically. Who don't actually wish your daughter goodwill. And a lot of those kids that come to her party are also phonies.

Right. Because they don't understand. They don't even understand peer relationships. There's a bunch of phonies coming into your house and getting in the way of Saad's good time, his personal ice cream eating time. Are your friends phonies, Zaba? No, no, they're not. Have you read Catcher in the Rye?

Yes. Oh, was that it? Yeah, that was it. I think he's just alluding to the overwhelming number of phonies. I appreciate that you have probably read Catcher in the Rye and that, and that your adolescent cynicism has, has, uh, has a, uh, has a root in that great adolescent work of cynical literature. But let me ask you this. Zaba, you guys just, how long ago did you move to

Abu Dhabi? Am I pronouncing it correctly? Yeah. Yeah. We moved to Abu Dhabi almost five years ago. Five years ago. And your circle of friends there are relatively new? I mean, five years old, new. I mean, you know, we've been friends with a lot of people for about at least four years, I'd say. And who are your friends? You mentioned that the primary spoken language in Abu Dhabi is English. Is that because you socialize in an expatriate community,

or is it actually just kind of a lingua franca? Well, the English language is actually dominant generally. It's just a really cosmopolitan city. And so people just default to English. But our friends are mostly either American or British. Okay. And what kind of birthdays have you had for your daughter before this? There have been a couple of secret birthdays. They weren't secret. without my knowledge or consent i well okay for the last two years i happened to be in america in july at at my daughter's grandparents home also known as my parents and we had

a celebration very similar to the one that i described earlier to you. Yeah, right. And Saad, do you feel that your daughter has now been poisoned by the expectation of a birthday party? Probably. I know that you love to overthink everything, but I need you to just answer the questions that I ask you. I think probably. That's probably right. All right. And do you feel, what is your fear?

What do you fear will happen if your daughter is allowed to have these kinds of traditional birthday parties? what fear do you have that is so overriding that you would deny what your wife wants and what your daughter as most children do i think i can say reliably probably enjoys what is the damage that's going to be done in your mind that needs to be stopped such that it has to be decided in a fake court of law? I feel like sharing it with other people, I don't know, like it's taking away something from me. Like it's like, you know, I want it to be just with me and her and our family. So that's, I don't know, there's a fear of like sharing it makes it makes me less important in our life or makes it less meaningful. All right. Now see, look, I appreciate your candor and I think we're really getting somewhere now. And I think the second fear is I don't,

I want her to, when she grows up, like I don't care if she does birthdays or not, she can decide, but I don't want her to grow up with this psychological need for a birthday. It's a really small thing. Like we all have like a million psychological needs and it's fine, but that's, that's like a small reason to. Zaba.

What do you, how do you respond to sods? I think very, uh, honest, uh, expression that he would feel less important in the birthday celebration if other people were there. Well, it's not about him. It's about so much. I think it's about our daughter. Am I still,

is that, I mean, I don't know. I think it's about her and what she wants. It sounds like you're reaching for a correct answer. No, I'm just trying to understand what you're asking me. I have two things to say. One, there is no correct answer. And two, actually there is, and you gave it. It's not about him. That's the right feeling to have. Okay, you guys, I think I've heard everything I need in order to make my decision. I am going to go into my chambers, which I've just inflated a bouncy house in there. I'm going to eat some ice cream and jump around for a while. And when I am done getting over my cold headache slash bouncy house nausea, I will return and make my decision known.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Saad, how do you feel on your birthday? It's a mix. So I wouldn't even notice it, except there are three really close friends who know about it and remember it and reach out to me with really loving notes. And I do appreciate that. it and remember it and reach out to me with really loving notes. And I do appreciate that. But most everyone else doesn't even know about it. So it's largely ignored and I feel okay. Most people believe you not to have a birthday, that you're some sort of eternal being. Every day is my birthday. Zaba, how do you feel on your birthday?

I generally feel really happy. I, you know, I have some people who wish me a happy birthday, and I usually have a very small, simple celebration, and it makes me feel good. It's usually just the two of us. Yeah, it's either the two of us, but sometimes when we're not together, you know, there are other people involved as well. So just to clarify, Saad, is your wife a child under the age of 13? Oh, my God, we need to shut this down. No. No.

Hassad, how do you feel about your chances in this case? So I know I'm the underdog here, but, you know, the judge was also, you know, the PC in those ads, you know. And so I think he probably has a little bit of sympathy for the cultural underdog fighting the trendiness. You know who was writing his checks, right? for the cultural underdog fighting the trendiness. You know who was writing his checks, right? Judge Hodgman wasn't getting a check once a month from Microsoft. I'm not going to overthink this, Jesse. Finally, something you're not going to overthink. Zaba, how are you feeling about your chances?

Oh, I feel pretty good. I feel pretty confident about this one. Well, we'll see how it goes. We'll come back in just a second with Judge John Hodgman's decision. Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org, and they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network,

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thing to give to the child and wrap that thing. It's a big hassle. And then on the other end, you have kids coming over for a birthday party that you're hosting and you're responsible for all the food and the cake and the decorations. And these kids don't appreciate what you're doing and they don't want to, they're not interested in having a discussion about Jorge Luis Borges. It's like they want to do something else all the time. They leave a big mess. Some kid gets hurt. You got to talk to their parents about it and hope you don't get sued. It's a mess. The whole thing's a mess. And it gets even messier as your child gets older and older and older as the friends that were the mainstay of their birthday circle start growing apart and become more mature. And suddenly, what do you get for them a a stuffed animal or a gift card to the apple store like

you don't even know like why am i getting this 13 year old a present they should be out getting a job you know what i'm saying but eventually those child birthdays pass and those enthusiasm for child children's birthdays pass and you move into a more adult mature reflective mode of birthday celebration which is a nice dinner out with a few people you love or how about we don't even mention that it's my birthday because i don't want to think about it which is the way i celebrate my birthday so i sympathize with sod for all of those reasons and also for the reason that i think we only just began to touch on which is that adults who have child style birthday celebrations are monsters when you're you know i think you can get away with like hey it's my birthday everyone celebrate me

when you're into your 20s your early 20s But once you start getting to your late 20s, and certainly once you turn 30, it's just weird and gross. Hey, everybody, it's my birthday. Hooray for me. You can pull that off when you're 40, when you're 50, then when you're 70, and then any year after 80, that's worth celebrating. But I think Patton Oswalt worked out this math pretty well in a routine that he did about birthdays. Like when you're in, and you're in your thirties and you're, and you're having a big cake and ice cream birthday party for yourself, and there's no mom and dad to throw it for you. That, as far as I'm concerned, is a sign of terminal narcissism and mental illness

at work. So Saad, I just want you to understand that I hear you, right? And I might even take your side in this case and rule in your favor wholeheartedly, were it not for the fact that I feel that a lot of your issues here do not proceed from true principles, as you put it, but from psychological need, stress, and anxiety that you are going through. You seem to feel that your daughter will appreciate the kind of birthday celebration that you appreciate, forgetting that she is four years old and you are 35 years old, right? You express that you think a birthday party will make you feel less important in your child's life, which I hope you realize is a completely irrational cuckoo fear. You are profoundly important in your child's life on that day and every other day. So important that being less of the star of your child's life on a single day shouldn't be a bother to you.

Your anxiety to hold on to a central place in your child's life and in your family's life, I think, is a serious thing bordering on real narcissism. I say this with respect, given that I am not a psychological professional, and we've only spoken via Skype across a hemisphere. And I've never even seen you. But your indulgence of ice cream every day, making it your birthday every day, and wanting to deny a birthday party to your daughter because it might not be about you that day. You know, you say those things lightly and in jest, but you got to something there. And I think you need to examine it. Okay?

Because I don't think that's in touch with the reality of the world, right? Birthday, the reason that we have birthday parties, particularly for children, is not an expression of selfishness. It is or should be an expression of generosity, right? There are people in the lives of your children who care about your kids, whether they're family members or friends. Your children do form proto-friendships and your children do enjoy the special feeling of everyone coming to sing a song to them and risk being sued by Warner Chapel Music in order to express the happiness that they are alive on this earth for one more year. Any party that you throw, and parties are frustrating, hard, expensive, difficult things,

whether you're celebrating a birthday or an anniversary, but you're doing it in order to give your friends an opportunity to express their affection for you and to express your affection for them, right? That's the generosity. That's why when you say, no presents, please, people still bring presents because they want to express their feelings. And it's not just a social norm. Yes, there are conventions and the convention of gift giving makes people feel obligated to give some kind of gift even to a 13-year-old who should be working, right? But there is a gesture behind the convention that I think we can honor. And you say you like giving gifts. Giving gifts shows that you've thought about a person.

Throwing a party shows that you open your doors to your community of friends and you don't even care if they're phony fakers or faceless mannequins who are lying to you. Your generosity is such that you welcome even them into your lives. A party, even though it seems contradictory, a birthday party is not about the person who is celebrating the birthday, so much as it is the community of people around them and giving them an opportunity to express their affection and express your affection for them. That's why I like the Hobbit birthday tradition. The person whose birthday it is gets presents for all of his friends.

I'd let that happen in a second. The birthday party is not necessarily about just the birthday celebrator. And it's certainly not all about you. And I think that for this reason, I cannot rule in your favor, Saad, and say no birthday party for your four-year-old or your nine-month-old son. It makes the people in your life feel happy. And I don't think they're lying about their happiness. I don't think, I don't think I don't think Zaba is lying about her happiness I don't think your daughter is pretending to be happy in order to conform to some

extraneous social norm I think it's genuine I will say though that you raise to the point that you are not feeling personal anxiety which I think you should explore. I could be really off base there and I accept it. But I thought you were pretty candid when you said it makes me feel like I'm not important, right? You should explore that. But at the same time, you also make some very meaningful points. You know, ritual exists so that we can mark milestones.

The fact that you needed to say that it was your anniversary makes it clear that you believe that milestones are meaningful. We mark milestones because we're only here for a little while, and we're only here for a little while, hopefully in a community of people that we care about. And we're only here for a little while, hopefully in a community of people that we care about. And so we have rituals to give us an opportunity to stop and reflect upon anniversaries, birthdays, holidays, and to reflect upon what they mean to us. And there is the case where the ritual overtakes the point of reflection that a milestone or a holiday or an anniversary or a birthday affords. Rituals like gift giving. Rituals like, I expect a lot of presents, or it's my anniversary, you better get me some jewelry or some fancy cologne, or, you know, let's get up those Christmas lights as soon as Labor Day is here.

All this stuff that becomes a distraction and does serve companies that have no real interest in our personal reflection. You can take back those holidays, those anniversaries, and those birthdays from the disingenuity of some of the more crass commercial rituals. And indeed, I think there is an imperative that you should have a moment alone or the four of you as a family to quietly express happiness that your daughter is alive on earth and was born a certain number of years ago and let her know just how great she is and how you feel about that and have some private cake and ice cream from your personal cache of cake and ice cream from your cake and ice cream cellar that you keep. But then that's meaningful. And it's also possible to have a birthday party that is not just a whole bunch of kids screaming and terrifying clowns or whatever else. You can have a tasteful, quieter,

fun birthday party with an inoffensive theme such as zoo animals. And it can be something other than just blind ritual. It can be a meaningful get-together of people who care about each other. And I think that it's important to try to maintain that as much as possible in all of the ritual days of your lives. But I can't deny a four-year-old a birthday party. Certainly not on the arguments that you gave. And so I therefore find in favor of, what is your daughter's name? Iman.

Iman? Happy birthday, Iman, I find in your favor. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman rules that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Zaba, how do you feel about the decision? You know, happy. I'm a pretty happy person. I'm happy on my birthday. I'm happy today.

You know, this looks pretty sad. How about you, Saad? I'm feeling all right. I think I'll hang in there. No, I think it'll be fun. We'll do something together. I'm going to get on board. Oh, wow. Wow. This is a turning point in our family. What would you say is your favorite zoo animal? I'd have to go with lions. What's yours? Oh, mine's a zebra. I like capybaras. We'll be back in just a second on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Another thrilling Judge John Hodgman case in the books. I am. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie,

Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I.

Hmm. Are you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I. Ah, it'll never fit. No, it will will let me try if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p-p-p-d-c-o-o oh we are so close stop podcasting yourself a podcast from

maximumfun.org if you need a laugh and you're on the go. Incredibly satisfied with my decision. I think I made the right decision. I think you always make the right decision, Judge Hodgman. Except for this one case that I want to say something about. No, I'm just kidding. Where I spelled a thing wrong or used grammar incorrectly. There was a few dangling participles that I wanted to have a little bit of beef with, but otherwise I'm happy. With which you have a little bit of beef, I think you mean.

Wait, no, not C.S. Lewis. Is it C.S. Lewis? No, I think it's... No, E.B. White. It's E.B. White, not C.S. Lewis. E.B. White, right. We're going to get a lot of letters now. Thanks a lot, Jesse. I hear them starting to come over the transom as we speak. The internet transom. Well, it's very kind of you to say that I'm always right.

I happen to know I've been wrong three times, but I'll never reveal which three cases I got wrong. It's the Hodgman listeners dilemma. Perhaps if you come to one of my two upcoming live performances. You can pigeonhole me. I hope I'm using that term right. And maybe I'll confess it to you. If you are in West Virginia, in or around the capital of Charleston, great, incredible festival coming up in June called the Festivall.

And I will be performing live in Charleston, West Virginia, on June 22nd. As part of that festival, you can get tickets at the FestivallCharleston.com online. That's Festivall with two L's. Charleston.com, no space between them. Or at Taylor Books. It's going to be a lot of fun. And then, a little bit earlier... Judge Hodgman, I think we should mention

that is the world's only music and comedy festival dedicated completely to the sadly cancelled HBO series Carnival. Now, you're thinking of Festival with an E on the end.

Oh! No, no, because that one is dedicated to Bobby Cannavale, festival with an E on the end. Oh. Which takes place in... No, no, because that one is dedicated to Bobby Cannavale, the actor from... No, no, he was the marshal of the opening ceremonies of the Festivale. Gotcha. Which takes place in Charleston, South Carolina.

It's very confusing, I realize, but the one I'm talking about is Festivale in Charleston, I realize, but the one I'm talking about is Festivall in Charleston, West Virginia, the capital of West Virginia. I'll be performing on June 22nd at the West Virginia Cultural Center Theater at the Capitol Complex. You can get tickets online at Brown Paper Tickets or at the Festivall website or at Taylor Books, which I presume is a great local bookstore. I'll be appearing at Festive LL, which is a festival of moms who are interested in stain fighting. Sorry, that was really, really stupid.

You're going to be one more place, right, Judge Hatchman? Yes, I will. Even in the Bobby Hanavale thing. I will. I will be in another place. And just to make it as confusing as possible, I am doing my appearances in reverse chronological order because Festivale is June 22nd.

What's 22 divided by 2, Jesse? 11. That's right, June 11. I will be at Largo at the Coronet in Los Angeles presenting my first ever, and maybe last, presentation of Secret Society. I cannot tell you anything more about Secret Society other than it exists.

I can't deny that it exists. It's a simple fraternal and sororal organization among friends. We are not a cult. But you can get tickets for that at the Largo website. Largo, Google Largo at the Coronet, the world-famous, beautiful theater that has the boards that have been trod

by both Paul F. Tompkins, all of the thrilling adventurers, and Buster Keaton, too, when he was alive. They didn't bring out his corpse and make him dance around. But that's one day before MaxFunCon, so if there are any listeners in Los Angeles who are going or are not going to MaxFunCon,

why don't you pregame with me at Secret Society at Largo at the Coronet there on La Cienega Boulevard in Los Angeles, California. Yeah, we'll have lots of MaxFunsters there at the show, so do come to that show. And if you're going to be at Max FunCon and you're going to the show, I think if you go in our Facebook group right now

or in the Attending Max FunCon Facebook group, one of the super organizers like Ken Roberts or somebody is organizing it so that when you buy your ticket, they can assign you to a block of MaxFun fans in the audience. Ken Roberts, super organized. Ken Roberts, super organized. This week's case was named by Evan Cooper. Thank you, Evan.

If you want to name a Judge John Hodgman case, go ahead and like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. John is at Hodgman. I am at Jesse Thorne. Our producer is Julia Smith. Our editor is Mark McConville. You can find me every week, by the way, on the Max Fund Podcast's Jordan and Jesse Go, which is a very silly, vulgar comedy show, and Bullseye, which is a very high-minded cultural interview show. So, you know, you get a taste of everything there. Both podcasts so essential that I dare say they are mandatory.

Oh, thank you, Judge Hodgman. We'll talk to you guys next time on Judge John Hodgman. Maximumfun.org Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Listener supported.