Judge John Hodgman - The Hot Dog-cket

Episode Date: August 26, 2026

Hot dog, hot dog, hot DIGGIDY DOG! We have the Hot Dog Expert of all Hot Dog Experts in chambers with us to clear an ALL-HOT DOG DOCKET! Or, a hot DOG-cket! That's right, we got JAMIE LOFTUS (RAW DOG: The Naked Truth About Hot Dogs, Sixteenth Minute, Aack Cast)! Jamie helps us advise on questions like: is ketchup ever okay on a hot dog? What about mayonnaise? Why do condiments on hot dogs provoke such strong reactions - heck, why are hot dogs themselves so polarizing? She also dives in to the history of competitive hot dog eating, the giant confetti-filled hot dog in Times Square, and tells us what actually goes down in the Wienermobile’s infamous “Meat Seat.” Open up and take a big bite of meaty justice on this episode of Judge John Hodgman! Watch Judge John Hodgman put together Sweden's favorite hot dog, Tunnbrödsrulle, in the WERU kitchen on TikTok! Follow Jamie on Instagram: @jamiechristsuperstar Buy Raw Dog here: https://read.macmillan.com/lp/raw-dog-by-jamie-loftus Pre-order Jamie’s new book The Tower here: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250480422/thetower ---Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Become a member to unlock special bonus episodes and more. Memberships start at just $5 a month. Just tap here!

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff, Jesse Thorne. We're in the docket room, the chambers this week. With me is Judge John Hodgman. Hi, John. How are you? I think it's fair enough to say that we're in the docket room. Specifically, we're in the hot docket room. Wow.

Hot dog kit. Yeah, get out your hot dog kits. You hear the, you hear the, the, the, the melifluous laughter of a very, very special guest. Someone who should have been on this podcast years ago when we started talking about whether or not a hot dog with a sandwich, because indeed she is a hot dog expert among so many other things. Jesse, you're going to introduce her in a moment,

but to make it clear, perfectly clear, today's docket is all about hot dogs and hot takes about hot dogs. Jesse, who do we have in studio with you? I'm jealous enough to say. Oh, well, she is a legendary podcaster. She is the host of the Bechtelcast, 16th minute, the Lolita podcast and Actcast, but more relevant to our interests today, she is the author of Raw Dog, The Naked Truth About Hot Dogs, Jamie Loftus.

Hi, Jamie. Hi. I'm so excited to get into it with you guys. I've followed some of the hot dog discussion over the years. I think there's just so much. I had just a loose hot dog over the weekend. Just a loosey. Just a loose one?

Just when you think you're out, you're back in. When you say a loose hot dog, do you mean that it was held by nothing? Like, did you just hold it in your... I guess I... It was a little... I went to like a tiki party and there were some pigs and blankets going on, some pigs and blankets action. I guess I just used Lucy to describe an unplanned hot dog.

Not a hot dog you buy for a quarter from a guy on the corner. Out of a cigarette box. A greasy cigarette box, yeah. Wait, we're going, John, we have so much like hot dog talk. We've got so many hot dog cases here, but I have a burning hot dog question. In fact, it's the opposite of a burning hot dog question. Jamie, you travel the nation-consuming hot dogs and learning about hot dogs for your book Raw Dog. Did you eat any hot dogs just?

ice cold straight out the pack. Ooh, like a, no, I didn't. Like a Lissy Coldie? Like a Freezy Loose? Yeah, yeah. No, I've never done that. I definitely have had an undercooked hot dog not intentionally. But a dog pop, I mean, someone.

Someone's going to do it. Well, I'm not fully frozen. But, like, there's definitely a community of people who passionately defend a person's right to eat it straight out of the refrigerator. Straight out of the... I mean, I didn't do it for my research. I know that I have done it. I know that I have been at a place in my life where that seemed appropriate. Right.

And I say that because they're like the beauty of a hot dog is that everyone has access and the technology to have a good hot dog. So there's really no excuse for a bad hot dog except depression. And I have, I have been there. I've been lukewarm to cold hot dog. Or like camping and you can't find enough of that like fine duff that you need to start the fire. Yeah, I guess if you don't have Flint, if you don't have fire technology, that's going to be a rough start. I believe I had a cold hot dog out of the fridge last summer here in the studios of WERU and Maine.

Isn't that right, Joel? That is correct. I can't get it out of my mind. I think it was on a dare. I think it was on a dare. What was the circumstance? But I don't, but let's not put the bun before the dog here. Let's go to first principles.

Jamie Loftus, your genius. You are indeed the author of this wonderful book about a cultural history of hot dogs called Raw Dog. But I got to, I gotta tell you something. You know, I'm an avid listener to the 16th minute Bechtel cast, my year in Mensa, everything. But the Lolita podcast is absolutely essential to anyone who's ever thought about the novel Lolita. You must listen to it immediately. Thank you so much.

my understanding of that novel and the whole phenomenon around it. I listened to it because I thought that it was about anime outfits and I was going to change my style. If you get about nine hours deep, it comes up. Okay, great. It always comes around, always comes around to cosplay eventually. It does. I switched to the Naruto cast. And, you know, my point of entry to the Jamie Loftiverse was the Yak cast, which if you don't get it from the title everybody, it is about the comic strip. Kathy and what an incredible accomplishment that comic strip was and that podcast was Jamie.

Thank you for being here. Thank you so much. That means so much to me. Yeah, I was thinking about, I mean, I'm always thinking about Kathy because I have so much Kathy stuff. But she's like, she's touring around for the, I think, like, 650th anniversary of the strip brand. I'm talking about Kathy. Kathy Guyswhite, the creator of Kathy.

Yeah, yeah. She's been doing like a college tour and. A college tour? A college tour? Sure. She's speaking to the youth about the relevance of Kathy. I'm just like, I feel like every couple years, a new group of people discovers her and that she's awesome. And I'm like. So this is the thing. Like my wife used to co-host a podcast called One Bad Mother with Biz Ellis. And they had Kathy Geiswhite on the show. This is, you know, 10, 12 years ago. And all I remember is the two of them just buzzing, just electric, just like. fully vibrating with how much they loved Kathy, the creator of Kathy. Like, they're like, she's the greatest.

She's unbelievably cool. It's like overwhelming how awesome she is. I'm so glad that people are still finding her because, yeah, she's just like the coolest person ever. Well, why don't we get into the docket now so we can start talking about dogs? All right. This one is from Dorian. My dispute is with the ketchup haters. The truth is, I don't love ketchup on hot dogs either. I'm a really. relish boy, but I think it's fine to use ketchup on a hot dog. If there is no relish, should you rule in my favor, I would request a universal injunction against making anti-c ketchup remarks when relish has not also been provided.

Your honor, please slake my thirst for justice with the dank hot dog water of your righteous verdict. Yeah. I guess what Dorian is arguing here. is that all hot dogs deserve one sweet condiment? I was guessing that was like the subtext to it. I like that Doreen just presented this with no explanation as to why relish is ketchup's foil. Yeah.

Well, now that you're an adult, how do you prepare your hot dog if you were making it at home, including condos? Including condos. Okay, so I'm doing split. and grilled on both sides. I feel like splitting the dog with something. Splitting the dog. If you like a little extra snap, and if you like a little extra,

like sort of a second boat for a condiment, it's great. So you slice it down the middle. Oh, I see. It's a double boat. It's a double boat. So you can have two condiments on the side, one right down the middle,

without making too much of a mess. And it just gives you kind of a double snap because you've bisected the hot dog. which is something I think I saw in D.C. for the first time, but it's not from there. But anyways. Can I ask you, are you putting a slit in the hot dog? Is it split all the way in two or is it split sort of in the way that a hot dog bun is like a book? It's, it's a bun style.

Yeah. Yeah. It's you got to edge on. It's like cracking an egg. If you splits in two, I mean, it's still a perfectly good dog, but aesthetically, it's a disaster. Well, it's not a boat anymore. No, it's not a boat. So I will split it. I'll grill it on both sides to a light toast. I try to like emulate one of my favorite hot dogs and get a little bit of crisp on the outside. Toasting the bun, buttering the bun on the inside. And, you know, if I have time, if I have time, I like a toasted buttered bun. And then kind of a classic, I mean, I'm tolerant of a wide variety of,

condiments, but I do ketchup, mustard, relish. That was how I was raised. Sweet, sweet relish? Depends, but yeah. Yeah, I generally do just kind of the store brand relish. But I've tried so many different relish. Relishers can come in so many colors I've learned, including gray. No. Yes. Where do you get gray relish?

Connecticut. I don't know why, but that's where it is. Don't know why. If you're watching us on the YouTube at Judge John Hodgman Pod, leave your comments if you're from Connecticut and you love gray relish. Jesse, are hot dogs a migraine trigger for you or do you, do you check? No, my children went through a period where some of them would only eat hot dogs. Then, as is often the case with my children, they went out of phase so that only like one of them at a time would only eat hot dogs. The other two would reject all hot dogs.

So I went through like a really intense hot dog period. I haven't eaten a ton of hot dogs since then. That's maybe ended four years ago or something. But my childhood experience with hot dogs, also definitional for me, was probably mostly ballpark hot dogs, which have a slightly soggy bun because they've been put in the bun and then wrapped up in that foil. Really allowed to marinate, yeah, thick paste.

And then as far as as toppings go, for me, as a child, it was anything you could crank or pump on there at the ballpark. So that would be ketchup, mustard, relish, and onions. Everything that you, there was a relish and an onion crank, you know, a rotary crank that would crank it out. You'd just go ape on that. We got to bring that back. And then there was mustard and like yellow mustard and ketchup. And I just put all of them on there.

So kind of like the soda, the soda machine approach. Just a condoism. These days, like a Utah suicide drink. Yes, exactly. If I'm at Costco today, which is my number one hot dog destination probably, it will probably be,

I can't eat the raw onions anymore because that is a migraine trigger. So it'll be usually relish and mustard or sometimes relish mustard and ketchup. I'm not opposed to, I'm not really a ketchup lover compared to people that think it's the best. Sure.

I don't love it on my friend. French fries, for example. Okay. But I'll put some on the hot dog for an extra thing. Sure. I mean, I don't know hot dogs without ketchup. I do know. I mean, I don't know.

I have some, well, I'm curious what you think. You just got helted with rotten vegetables from the future from podcast listeners. Look, and I'm strong and I can take it. Okay. I got, I got booed at my own. book release show in Chicago. Right. Well, when you were talking about different color relishes, Chicago, of course, has that famously

neon bright green relish. And they are also infamous for hating ketchup on hot dogs. But you are ketchup. You are pro ketchup. I'm pro ketchup. I see, I think it's always interesting to me when a cultural identity is formed around arbitrary hate. I think it's quite scary.

I don't know. But also, I don't know. I sort of wish when I was doing my hot dog reporting for the book that I had had a chance to eat more hot dogs in Chicago. But I was traveling in 2021. So a lot of places were closed temporarily or closed permanently. So I had a limited sampling. But even in sort of that very kind of dark moment in history, Chicagoans really showed up to hate ketchup so much and define. their, uh, define their entire city by that hatred to the point where I remember there's this like

really, I'm wondering if you guys have seen it. This, this hideous really kind of scary statue of a hot dog that is at a lot of small hot dog businesses. It's like, I don't, there is a sexual energy to it that I don't like. He's sort of like, it's an anthropomorphic hot dog, the size of a guy. Why would that be sexual at all? He's like kind of Mickey Mouseing. He's got like gloves and boots, which is, he has human teeth. He's kind of leaning over and he's like holding ketchup and mustard in his hands. It's really like a menacing.

I was like, you've definitely seen this guy. But in Chicago, they had one of these guys at a random hot dog place I was trying out. And they had cut off the ketchup arm to the hot dog. Oh, wow. So we had like a pirate style. Like we had a hot dog anthropologist. Amputte because they hated ketchup so much. I've been yelled at.

I've been asked, are you five years old if I asked for ketchup on a hot dog there? It's kind of a fun pastime just to see how people will react. I think it's fair to say about the great city of Chicago that no city that is more broadly well-liked by Americans has such resentment because they think we don't like them or something. like they're like a such an intense little brother situation about one of the largest most cosmopolitan and beautiful cities in America. They're like, you think you're better than me? I mean, no, Chicago is great. We've been there.

It's good. Well, it's like, well, as a Boston adjacent person. Yeah. I think Boston has a similar energy except the difference is that people maybe actually do hate them. Yeah. Our resentment is not only powerful but also justified. Why do you think people get so personal about their hot dogs? I've spent so much time thinking about this.

I love about hot dogs that everyone tends to have a very strong opinion about them, but when pressed, have a difficult time answering why. I think it's such a big part of, like, American childhood specifically, in a way that I think is so like when you're defending your favorite hot dog, you're also defending yourself, how you were raised, where you're from, like very specific memories. And I just, I love that. Yeah.

And that it like goes across the class spectrum and tends to just, yeah, you're like defending your life when you're defending your hot dog. And it's different from any other food, at least I think in the U.S., because they're there's still not like one like dominant hot dog chain. Like there's a cup, like there's, you know, hot dog and a stick, Wiener Schnitzel, there are places, but not something that would like, I can't think of another food that like is, there's not a go-to fast food chain for it. And so like people's attachment to it tends to be very personal and like connected to home. Can I offer my hottest hot dog take? I know it's early in the show. Yes, sure. But it's directly pursuant to

passionate feelings that Jamie just described about hot dogs and regional hot dogs specifically. Like, I'm from San Francisco, and one of the great San Francisco icons, if you're a San Franciscan that you're really passionate about, it's not like the Coit Tower or something like that that a non-San-Franiscan might associate with San Francisco, but it's this chain of local diners called the Doggy Diner, which has a weiner dog as its logo. I, I, I, I, I, don't think any of them still exist. There, well, it was one holding out for a long time. Okay.

But they had, you know, giant weiner dog heads on, uh, poles. And there was one out by the zoo that really made it like a, an icon for kids. However, I never got a hot dog there. And I don't know anyone who ever did. It was just that idea, right? Okay. And like a lot of things with San Francisco, uh, because it is a city of immigrants both domestic and international, there are very few sort of like signature elements of

San Francisco culture that have deep roots because, you know, everybody is from Chicago or El Salvador, you know what I mean? And so I don't have a strong, passionate feeling about what goes on a hot dog. As I just said, I just put all the things that were in a crank at the ballpark. But this is my hot take. And maybe it just comes out of, that feeling. But there are other greater American foods than

hot dogs. I would put a New York pizza like a classic American style pizza is to me the greatest food. Our guest is in studio with you and you're offending. Okay. But like... Sinking into my chair.

But like it's entirely possible to go to dominoes and get a pizza that's of three out of ten or two out of ten on the scale of foods that I would want to eat. Like, when my wife was in law school, she had to go to a lot of, like, meetings of things that I would have to go to, and they would buy terrible chain pizza, and I would eat it, and I would be like, I'm hungry, and I don't know if I want to eat this. Damn.

I've never felt that way about a hot dog. So to me, and I've certainly felt that way. about like a cheeseburger, which is another food where like a great cheeseburger, I'm going to personally pick over a hot dog every time. But I've had some gross cheeseburgers, some truly disgusting cheeseburgers. I would argue that a hot dog is the narrowest band of quality of any broadly available American convenience food or restaurant food, that like, The worst hot dog I've ever had, which is probably something like that sticky bunned ballpark hot dog. Sure.

It's still like a six out of ten. The best hot dog I've ever had is maybe a seven and a half out of ten. You're just not going to the right places, Jesse. I think I'm just not drunk enough or something. But like, I think that is my hot take is that the hot dog is the narrowest band of worst to best. Like, all hot dogs are pretty good. but a transcendent hot dog to me is still a few levels below other foods that are at their best. Interesting.

Interesting to hear. I think that we just, yeah, there's so many 10 out of 10 hot dogs. You're just not going to the right places. You didn't even know you can split girl. I'm really sorry about this, Jamie. Would you like us to call you a car at this point? Would you, are you ready to go? I have to go.

We are going to discuss some transcendent hot dogs. a little later on in the docket, but I do feel like I need to make a ruling on this one. Sure. And here's what I'm going to say about ketchup. Ketchup is an honorable condiment. It is delicious, frankly. Is it sweet? Sure.

But is it for children? No. I think about ketchup a lot, because as I mentioned, I'm here broadcasting from WERU, the solar-powered studios of Community Radio, here in Orleans, Maine. And I live some of the year

not too far from here. at an unnamed coastal town. And from time to time, we get out on the water and we pass by a giant mansion. And only recently did I learn that this giant mansion, which, by the way, is, seems to be never inhabited.

I'm talking about five chimneys, Jamie Loftus. You know what I'm talking about a mansion. Whoa. And what I learned recently, one of the locals turned to me and explained. That's the mansion that Hunt's ketchup built. Wow. Now, now I understand

why anyone who goes by that mansion looks at it and goes, second best not my first choice I was going to say not to not to dump on hunts because plenty of people have but I didn't know they were doing

coastal mansion business that's surprising to hear at some point I mean you know you see hunts around they make they can a lot of tomatoes and there's nothing wrong with their canned tomatoes and honestly there's nothing wrong with their ketchup and honestly there's nothing wrong with ketchup in

any form on anything if you like it because it is a very specific flavor that tastes good on a hot dog, I dare say. It's good. What do you think about that, Jamie? Yes or no? Respect. Respect. No, and the best thing, because I also love Chicago, there are people who will quietly applaud you because they live in fear, but who will quietly applaud your decision.

I think that there are people in like speakeasy style eating ketchup on hot dogs as adults in Chicago, every single night. Yeah. We'll be back at just a second with more hot dog stuff. And when we come back, John, I want to know what everyone thinks about mayonnaise. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be back with more on the Judge John Hodgman podcast in just a second.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We are in the docket room, the hot dog kit room. We are clearing our hot dog docket with the great Jamie Loftus. Author of Raw Dog and creator of many podcasts, you should listen to. Hi, Jamie. It's me again, John Hodgman. Okay, I promised mayonnaise. This is from Marcus. Hot Dogs are tearing my family apart. My standard hot dog toppings are ketchup and mayonnaise. My entire life, my family has told me mayo on a hot dog is weird and gross, but they refuse to try it. Mayo gives tang and savouriness that works great with a hot dog. Is it actually gross? John, you're the

Mayo man. What do you say? That's true. I love Jamie Loftus. How do you feel about mayonnaise in general? and then on a hot dog. In general, I'm, I'm pro. I think mayonnaise is a solid canvas for a lot of different flavors. On a hot dog, I think for me, it depends. I feel like mayonnaise pairs well with a lot. I'm definitely not anti-manais on a hot dog, but I think it kind of depends on what you're pairing it with

and how the dog is prepared. Like, I wouldn't put mayonnaise on a boiled dog. Yeah, that seems right to me. Yeah, but I would put it on a, like well-grilled dog. It just kind of depends. You know what, Jamie, that's very wise, because even I,

a mayo man, I love mayonnaise in all forms. I'll eat it out of a bowl. But I think you're right. On a boiled or steamed hot dog, it would be inappropriate, but on a grilled hot dog, particularly if the hot dog has a very smoky flavor. Mm-hmm.

And by the way, my preferred preparation for a hot dog, thanks for asking, was my mom's favorite, which is griddled bun, griddled hot dog, mayonnaise, fried onions. And it's really good.

And I don't taste. I don't eat it enough, honestly. Probably I eat it more than enough for my body. But for my desires, not enough. That's really not far from a quote-unquote Los Angeles-style dog. Yeah, it feels reminiscent of it. Which is usually bacon wrapped and served with grilled onions and peppers and jalapenos, grilled jalapenos on top.

Like not sliced pickled jalapenos, but fresh whole jalapeno. close to a perfect hot dog anything like i i'm very pro like uh if i can avoid if i can plan my food day out if i'm going to like a baseball game uh to eat a hot dog before i go in and right after i get out that is ideal always better these are not typically served in events they're typically served immediately outside events by people with carts uh like like mobile carts like truly mobile cards, not like the New York kind, but like little ones that are just a griddle, basically. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's remarkable.

It's so cool. I love L.A. Street dogs. They're a post-Bioncé concert hot dog. And it's worth mentioning they typically, they typically offer mayo, mustard, and ketchup. They do, yeah. Is it true that they put cream cheese on their hot dogs in Washington State in Seattle? Jamie Loftus, yes or no? They do.

Across the Pacific Northwest, but yes, specifically in Seattle, they do. and I was closed off to it at first, but it ended up kind of cracking open a whole sort of sub, when is it appropriate in the day to eat a hot dog question? Because I associate cream cheese with the morning and hot dogs with afternoon tonight, but then you're like, but a hot dog is a sausage and that sausage is in the morning. So maybe this is not inappropriate at all. Then I was thinking, well, what am I like?

Because the cream cheese hot dogs that I like, they're sort of using it in place of butter on a bun. It's just a, you know, a sausage and a bagel, basically. Right. And so I think cream cheese, I was going to say, could even function as how mayonnaise functions in some of these dogs. Jamie Loftus, I have a very important question for you. What is a hot dog? Because you mentioned, like a weiner, as in the weaner mobile, is different from a Frankfurter? What's the basic breakdown that we need to know about?

What about a red hot? Yeah, I mean, I try not to get too technical about it, even though that is part of the fun of talking about hot dogs. But like, you've got your versions that are all beef, you've got all pork, you've got the mix, which some people are very opposed to, for religious reasons or for just reasons that they cannot quite articulate to me when I ask them. I feel like a hot dog, I know, I guess it's like, how is that, What was the thing that that Supreme Court?

They would know pornography when they saw it. Yes. Hard to define, but you know it when you see it. That's generally how I approach what isn't a hot dog. I think when something isn't a hot dog, I know instantly. I think what isn't a hot dog is like is a brat. A brat is its own thing, right? A sausage is its own thing.

There is different technology involved. There's a whole different culture around it. What makes it good is different than a hot dog. I feel like what makes a hot dog a hot dog. I'm not super concerned about what the split of the kind of meat is. I'm not concerned with how you're preparing it. I'm just concerned with has it been processed in a fairly diabolical way? And does it mean something to you?

I like the hot dog as a compromise spiritual object. Maybe that's not answering the question. But I, yeah, for me, a hot dog is like, extremely processed. I think if you really are like, I feel comfortable knowing what's in this, it is not a hot dog. Oh, man. There's something nuts here, John. This is incredible. This is from a fruit on Blue Sky. Dylan sent it to us. Okay. My friend wants to host a hot dog eating contest. Be careful. But with a catch, you can only eat one hot dog. Each contestant is judged based on who eats their hot dog best.

There will be basic condiments provided, but attendees can also bring their own condiments for additional style. Is quality, not quantity, a valid framework for a hot dog eating contest? I need more information. Who's deciding what best me? I need to know what the... Frude's friend, I think. Fruit, I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know that. While we ponder this paradox, I mean, a hot dog eating contest is normally about who can eat the most hot dogs. Jamie, you've written a lot about the annual Fourth of July Nathan's hot dog eating contest. What's the latest from the world of competitive eating? How is Joey Chestnut doing? Well, you know, we're never sure. No, I love, this was the first year in five years that I haven't gone to the contest. I usually go.

I really love it there. I've made friendships with eaters over the years. They're very, very nice people. I will say, Joey, this year, something happens every year, which is why I never miss it. Something, like, just that you could not conceive of,

happens every single year. There was a year where the first time I went, Joey Chestnut broke his own record, 76 hot dogs and buns, 10 minutes, one of the most, like, stunning things I've ever seen. seen in my life. What was it? Year after that, a protester came on stage and Joey Chestnut

choked the protester out mid-contest and still won. Also very scary to watch. Jeez. What? If you look it up, it looks like he snapped. Why is that not the most famous news story of the last 20 years? That's what I'm saying. Like something absolutely absurd happens every year. And there's thousands of witnesses. And then I'm the only person that ever talks about it again. That was like absolutely terrifying. 2023, gigantic thunderstorm right before the contest. Contest is canceled. Everyone goes home. Joey Chestnut gets online and it's like, I'm doing the contest anyways. I'm sprinting back. He stomps out. He eats like 65 hot dogs in the pouring rain.

2024 he's banned from the contest because he took a separate deal with impossible meat. And so he's banned. Yeah, wasn't there a small Japanese man that was his primary rival for a while? Yes, Takira Kobayashi, who also re-faced off with Joey on Netflix in 2024. I flew to Vegas for that. That was unbelievable. But unfortunately, Kobayashi lost because he spent the last 10 years making better choices. But like Kobayashi is the reason that the hot dog contest exists here.

Like it was like just totally disorganized, nothing really going on until Kobayashi brought Japanese eating, like competitive eating culture to the U.S., immediately became the champion, became a huge celebrity in like the mid to late 2000s. And then once Joey presented a threat, there was a rivalry and the contest, not Joey, but like Joe was the beneficiary of this. They iced Kobayashi out. They othered him. They turned him into like the enemy. and uplifted the white American contestant. Who runs this contents? Vince McMahon?

Well, sort of. These guys named the Shea brothers, George and Richard Shea, who are, they are not directly connected to Vince McMahon, but George Shea's wife was, I believe, a W.E. They're very much pulling from the McMahon playbook in how they run this contest. And what's Kobayashi doing now? Do I remember correctly that he pioneered the tech. of dipping the bun in water? Yes. Our cultural debt to Kobayashi, there's an incredible, genuinely, there's a great 30-for-30 episode

about Chestnut v. Kobayashi that really gets into all of the racism and xenophobia that was hurled at Kobayashi once Joey sort of came into the mix. And, John, you probably know this already, but this is the ESPN documentary series. Yes, I know what 30 for 30 is. It's the only one I've ever seen. So what do you think about a fruids concept of only eat one dog with style contest? You know, I like the idea. I just think it's a slippery slope.

It really depends on how we feel about the parameters of like I hesitate to think there could be just a few people who could decide how to eat a hot. dog the best. I worry that it's limited. It sounds as though you can bring their basic condiments, but attendees can bring their own condiments for additional style. It sounds like it's a how to decorate your hot dog as much as how to eat it with style. Right. So like new condiment creations could make an individual hot dog kind of a champion, maybe. I don't know. I'm interested in. But it's like, but what if one of the judges, what if you are a pro male on hot dog, you, you put a, you put mail on your hot dog, I feel like it's just so easy for a judge to bring a lot of baggage

to the table to be like, you have no way of knowing what kind of hot dog hurt someone. But what if you could like juggle or something? I mean, there are certain things that, yeah, I guess that would just objectively be a cooler way. I'm curious. Half a main red snapper like this and no bun and started eating it like corn on the cob like this. Oh, no. Oh, my God. The soundscape.

that's a true raw dog. That's a true. Oh, my God. Would I win for style points? Judges, show me your score is one out of one to ten. Joel, how many do I get? I've been five. We'll be back in just a second on Judge John Hodgman.

I don't even want to think about this anymore. We got more cases to, no, stop, John. No, stop now. It really reminds you about skin and flesh. Yeah, we're going to have more cases in just a second. It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We're taking a break from clearing the docket. And one of the things you're going to do when you're on break, John,

is pay another visit to our friends on the Grace Bailey. That's right, Jesse. In fact, I just saw the Grace Bailey plying the waters of the unnamed coastal town where I live. Got to say hello to Captain Sam and Fiji the Cat, as well as all the wonderful mates and Chef Ian and everybody else. Looking forward to getting back on board that boat because on their September 13 through 16, 2026 cruise, They will be spending a night here in port in the unnamed coastal town where I live.

And if you're on the boat, I will be joining you for that one night. I'll be reading to you, perhaps from Vacation Land, maybe from Moby Dick, maybe both. We'll have a chance to meet and greet and pet that cat together. So I hope you'll go to sailgracebailey.com. Check out that September sailing. It's all marked there when I'm going to be on it. And if that one doesn't work out for you, check out any of the other wonderful fall sailings they have coming up.

It's a beautiful time to be cruising here in Maine well into October. It's so gorgeous and so beautiful and even quieter than it normally is. So why don't you go ahead to sailgracebailey.com and check that out. Jesse Thorne, what's going on with you these days? We just had a really wonderful conversation with Stavros Halkias, the guy known as Stavi, host of Stavi's world, one of the most popular podcasters in the world, on Bullseye with Jesse Thorne. He's acting in a new movie. We talked to him about the full breadth of his career. He's such a smart, interesting guy, in addition to looking like a cartoon character in the reels in your Instagram, which he also does.

In fact, we talked a little bit about that. And a wonderful conversation with the character actor Dale Dickey, who folks, look, you'd recognize her face in a moment. She recently was nominated for an Emmy for her work on Widows Bay. was amazing on that show. It's incredible. Well, well-earned, and so happy for her. And this week on Bullseye, that was last week on Bullseye with Jesse Thorne. This week on Bulls-I with Jesse Thorne, favorite conversations with Gina Davis. I talked to Gina Davis about, among other things, the educational institute that she founded to study representation of women in film and television

and the professional world of women in film and television, absolutely essential data that they've generated. And she's just an incredible person and the greatest rapper of all time, Rakim, who has a new record. And among other things,

I talked to him about his auntie, his, like, parents, one of his parents' best friends was the legendary blues and R&B singer Ruth Brown. So he kind of grew up with Ruth, like she would take care of him when he was little a lot.

And I talked to him about what he learned from, you know, one of the great R&B singers of all time. Yeah, Rakim, Gina Davis, Stavi. It is a full spectrum of recent guests on Bullseye. And I hope you will check out the show, whether it is on the podcast or on YouTube. Sounds amazing. Let's get back to the show.

Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. We've got Jamie Loftis here. She's the author of Raw Dog. She's probably the number one expert in the world on Hot Talk. Everyone agrees on that. She has a new novel coming out next year, 2027, so keep an eye out for that and check out her many great podcasts. Jamie, do you know the name of the novel yet? Yeah, it's called The Tower.

The Tower by Jamie Loftus. Go and pre-order it as soon as possible. I bet it's going to be great, Jamie. Yes or wrong? I say yes. Absolutely not. Do not pre-order, hugely regret every word. No.

No. Order the Tower. by Jamie Loftus. Yeah, please. Okay. Jackson has a letter here about a hot dog party that he threw.

Okay. Yeah. Recently, I hosted a Hot Dogs of the World Party. I cooked a bunch of hot dogs and offered fixins from around the globe. One of the hot dogs

was a turnbredruly from Sweden. That sounds about right. Many consonances you can smash into. Okay. The hot dog is served in a lumpa

which is a potato and wheat flour flat bread. It is then topped with fried onions, mashed potatoes, and shrimp salad. This was intended to be the novelty goblin food option on the table. But everyone loved it. I can't begin to tell you how surprised we all were at how good the turnbredruly was. Mashies, shrimp, and onion is possibly the greatest hot dog experience I have had in my life. I just need to share this with the world. This feels to me like that thing where if you're in an unfamiliar restaurant, right?

Your best bet is to order the item that seems the low. least like someone would order it on the principle that there must be a reason that's on the menu that like rather than ordering the Caesar salad no matter where you are you order the most unusual thing there because that's going to be the thing that the chef is passionate about and they keep it on the menu because it's so good right rather than because everybody wants to eat Caesar salad Right. I mean, this is my first time hearing of the... It's going to be a... Nudevrile.

I'm like this... I see it being good. I'm so curious about like if the hot dog... I mean, it sounds like the hot dog is kind of maybe the third most important taste in this dish. So many textures. I'm pro have either of you ever had a hot dog that has seafood involved? No. No, not even once.

It is good. But I've only had, I think the only version I've had in the U.S. is like a Philly fish cake hot dog, which is a fish cake on top of a hot dog, which with the right condiments. I mean, it's kind of, it's pretty dense. What's a fish cake? Yeah. It's a little fried cake full of fish. My mom was from Philadelphia. I've spent a lot of time that I've never heard of a Philly fish cake.

Is that that, that must be a thing? Really? I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's a Philly Fish Cake specifically. I know that it is a fish cake and I had it in Philadelphia. Is it breaded like a fish stick or is it like a spam? No, it's like a little patty, if I'm remembering correctly. It's like a crab cake, but fish. I see, this is like so, sometimes I'm like, man, I don't, this was half a decade ago.

I'm pretty sure it was a little round fish. A decade ago, Jamie Loftus, that's two seconds ago to someone in my age. As far as I remember, it was a fish cake with, I think there was a tartar sauce element. I know that there was a homemade relish element. It's a deep fried flat patty made primarily from minced white fish and mashed potato. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

So I think it has, it's more fried than it sounds like this. Swedish option. But I do think that fish and hot dog and potato pair well. I'm pro that the I'm so curious shrimp salad and and kind of the thinner bread, it sounds like, not a not a classic bun. Yeah. So it's a Swedish flat like like Jesse, I went to the internet just now to confirm that this is a real thing and not just a prank that Jackson is playing on us, this rather implausible combo of mashed potato, hot dog, fried onions, and shrimp salad. But it's real. It's a popular Swedish street food, soft Swedish flat bread, which Jackson said you could probably use a tortilla, so I did. A raft around a hot dog, a large scoop of warm mashed potatoes, which I did,

which mashed potatoes I made last night for this very purpose. And a creamy shrimp salad, which is, I guess, well known in Sweden, called a Skagenroara, which is baby. shrimps in a mayonnaise and sour cream sauce with a lot of dill in it. So like the veal of shrimp? That's right. No, they're just small shrimp. They're not baby shrimps. Okay.

They're not actual babies. I think they're that size full grown. Tunbreedsrule, by the way. Tunbreeds ruler. Tunbreds ruler. Tunbreds ruler. And I use some crispy onions out of a bag, supermarket brand. And I made them in the kitchen.

here at WERU with Joel Mann just now. How are you both feeling? We haven't eaten it yet. Joel, do you have yours? No, I don't. It's right on the other side of that computer. I think he's saying he'd rather not have it. Joel is soft protesting.

Just give back to me, Joel, for a second so that I can, it's a little deconstructed so I can show them. I used a main red snapper again because that's what we're dealing with. And here is the... The studio must smell nuts. It smells fantastic in here. And here is a beautiful, here's my beautiful edition. This is the cross section here.

Okay. It's well composed. I think the fact that it's in a wrap leads it to be better composed than you might imagine when you think about a hot dog with all this weird stuff. It's like a hot dog burrito. Yeah. Not only have I never had this particular meal, but I've never had shrimp salad in my life. So this is all new.

and absolutely unconsher in every way. I tried to come up with a way for Jamie and I to eat it here in our office with no oven. And I knew we could get hot dogs right outside on the street because there's plenty of hot dog vendors I could ask to make me a hot dog and take the piece of bacon off of it. And I thought I could probably, I could probably like order shrimp salad, but I could probably like order shrimp salad, but I I did not know what shrimp salad was. And the only places that I could find that could send shrimp salad, it was a salad with shrimp on it. It was not like a chicken salad, which is what we're talking about here. Yeah, no, I had to make the shrimp salad more. I mean, I bought some frozen small shrimps and then I made the rest myself. Well, Jesse, you did not source those ingredients,

but I did. Who is the winner? I'm not sure because Joel and I are going to take a bite right now. Are you ready? We're going to eat the Tunbred Strula right now. One, two, three, bite. They're biting. They're biting their tunbid drool. That's really good. Joel, you didn't eat any.

Oh, that's why. I have to decline on religious grounds. Understood. I can't eat veal shrimp. It's true. Ethically opposed to the veal shrimp. Joel only eats fully adult shrimp. that died naturally.

What's the most complicated hot dog that you ate for your book? It was something called the Three Rings Circus in New Mexico. Really poorly conceived. It was like three kinds of rings. So it had onion rings on it, tiny onion rings. SpaghettiOs, disgusting.

And I believe a dusting of Cheerios on top. Okay. And that was really diabolical. That was not good. The clown patty. The clown. Yes.

Yes. Should have been calumari instead of Cheerios. That's another ring food. It's the only one I could think of. I think that that would have served me better. Wait. How are you doing? I forgot to mention that mustard and ketchup goes on this, but I only had mustard at the

moment. So I'm not anti-catchap. I just didn't do it. Okay. It's not terrible. In fact, I kind of, I like the dill. I'm not getting a lot of shrimp out of this. Now, that could be on me.

Maybe I didn't use enough shrimps. But it's an interesting combo, I must say. I can understand why people would be into it. And I bet with the proper Swedish flatbread, it would be good. How's the potato? That's what I'm most curious about. How's the potato integrating? That's good.

I feel like, that's got to be great. Yeah, that's real good. I mean, I think you could probably leave out the shrimp salad if that were repulsive to you. And I could understand why. But, you know, if you added a little mayonnaise and sour cream and fresh dill, you'd get the same benefit from it and would taste good. I don't think this is the best version of what Jackson has on offer, but I have learned enough from the internet that many people have tried this, have been surprised they enjoyed it, and I believe Anthony Bourdain was a big

fan as well. I'm glad I had a chance to try it. The thing that I should have thought of, well, to be honest with you, Jamie Loftus, I did think of. Okay. But I failed to execute it myself. was instead of shrimp salad in honor of the state of Maine lobster salad. That might have been interesting to draw. Oh, yeah. That would be an interesting, yeah, because you got a little bit of the sweetness. And I did indeed buy a $10 lobster roll from Hannaford. I missed Hannaford.

And I left it in the refrigerator back at home because it looked bad, honestly. I have a case here from Justin. is a luxury hot dog ever worth it? It seems trendy to take a basic meal and make it fancy and expensive. There's a restaurant in New York called Misha, now closed, which had a $29 hot dog on the menu. My friend thinks it would have been fun to try it.

I think elevating a hot dog defeats its purpose. Am I being a party pooper? No, I don't think Justin's being a party pooper at all. Wow. I think it's if you want to make a fun hot dog, I think that like a fancy hot dog, knock yourself out. I don't like when a business is advertising, hey, we've made this food that is sort of iconically a food of the lower class. It's a street food. It's an immigrant own food generally. And we've found a way to make it cost $50. There's also the caviar dog in

New York. There's a lot of the chains, too, even chains that I like have found ways to make a hot dog cost $16 to $18. And I just am like, that's, that is where the line is to me. It's like if, what is the point of a hot dog if it isn't accessible? And so I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm with Justin. I'm also a party pooper. Miss me with the caviar hot dog or find a, or just give it out. It's all part. It's all part of this cultural, weird cultural moment in this time of income inequality where there's this fascination and fetishization with upselling and luxury, like caviar bumping everything. You know what I mean? It's actually a signifier of bad taste rather than good taste, in my opinion, for the most part. Like, hot dogs are a simple food. They should be simple. And as you say, accessible. I think that's

really right. Did you ever try that $29 hot dog before Misha closed? No. I had a chance to. And I was like, I just, I don't, I don't even want to, I don't even want to be perceived eating the third. I just think it's, it sucks for the hot dog community when something like that happens. I don't like it. When you say you had a chance to, you mean like you came into an inheritance. Hot dogs were introduced like at a world's fair. One of the apocryphal origins of hot dogs in the Americas, right?

Was introduced at a world's fair, right? in like 18, blah, blah, blah, right? Yeah. And I had always read in my books of trivia, not the ones I wrote, but books of real trivia about real things. I'd always read that they were served first without buns, you were just given a dainty white glove to eat it with.

Yeah. Have you heard that story? I've heard that one, yeah. Have you ever eaten just a hot dog with a dainty white glove? No, I think that that would be a very chic way to... Or is that, or is that, luxurifying the hot dog? No, I think it's just, it's dumbing the hot dog down to kind of, it's really stripping it to

its base to have to, instead of bread, have a full accessory. Yeah. I kind of want to try it. Like, I don't know. It doesn't need to be a nice club, right? I mean, I'll tell you, when I go to the gas station and get a hot dog and they say, aren't you going to have a bun with that? I'm like, why would I'm wearing this dainty white glove?

You put on your glove, you're like, hand it over. Yeah. They're like, oh, you're obviously a main native. Yeah. Now, Jamie, we tease from the top. In your book, Raw Dog, and in your travels, and in your exemplary taste, you have determined for you what is the best hot dog in the world. And you tell us what it is. I can.

Yeah, this is, I was hoping to have an edgier opinion when I was doing all of my research. But most or many hot dog aficionados have said, that the best hot dog in the country, and I agree, is at Rutzhut in New Jersey. It is just an incredible, an incredible hot dog. You can get it. It's a no frills business on the side of the highway. The business is sort of hanging off the highway. A lot of good, one of my hot dog hot takes is that everywhere that brags about having good hot dogs go the state over and they're better.

I think Jersey hot dogs, much better than New York hot dogs. California hot dogs are really, really good. But I think Arizona is slept on as a great hot dog hub. I think if you've got a great dog, you don't have to brag about it. Oh, okay. And so, yeah, the Ruts Hut, they do this thing called, I think it's called a Ripper. I haven't been in years. I've never been.

I've only ever heard of it. And as far as I know, it's just a legend. It's so. And I wanted... This is the deep fried? Slightly. Different degrees of deep fried. So you have to like be...

The kind of the best and scariest part of going is you have to be prepared. The line moves very quickly. The, like, you need to know, you have to speak their language before you get there. Like, there's no time to, like, slow down the line or you will be met with hostility. But, yeah, like, a Ripper is just your... basic hot dog that is deep fried for just a little bit of time to get like the perfect uh perfect amount of crisp uh it's like the best snap you could possibly experience they're not snobby about condiments it's like still a normal price um it just there's it's it's the kind of hot

dog business and there's a lot of these that are like left over from or referencing like mid 20th century where there's like car parks, there's like car shows, motorcycle meetups, stuff like that. When I went to Rutshut, it was in the middle of a motorcycle meetup. Just like weird, amazing energy

and the greatest hot dog snap I've ever experienced still. And that was like five years ago. Rutshut in New Jersey, let her rip. I gotta get back there. Joel, you ever been? Never.

Okay. You and I are going to go someday. Okay. Unbeatable. Jamie, I have one last question for you before we go. And, you know, I'm such a fan. You're such an incredible writer, such an incredible podcast,

you're such an incredible thinker, truly the Lolita podcast and the ACCAST, not to put Chad on any of your other podcasts, which are also brilliant, but those two in particular, as I mentioned, touched me very deeply, made me think about things in a very, in a new way. They were the best books I read those respective summers, basically. Thank you. So whatever your answer is, people like what they like, And I accept it.

People don't have different opinions. Is a hot dog a sandwich? I think it is, yeah. I do. And I know, I know. I just felt the energy shift wildly. I think, I guess I'll qualify this by saying, and it's hard because you're a hero of mine. No.

John just flipped her off with a red hot. He's gone. You laughed. Just kidding. Just kidding. Man, is that dog three? You know what? That was the third dog, John.

I don't care, and I never did. Oops. I'm falling apart over here at W-E-R-U. Should I call 9-1-1? No, that's okay. You know, it's a joke here. I think it is, like, I think it's a sandwich, I think it's a taco. I think it's entirely its own thing.

It's everything. It's everything is what you're saying. A hot dog. is everything. You know what the Buddhist said to the guy, the hot dog stand. Make me one with everything. Why did you even need to say it, Jesse? Everyone knows.

Everyone knows. Hot dog is everything. And it is also one thing. And I'll tell you one thing for sure. Jamie Loft is your genius. I'm so glad to have been able to spend this time with you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

This was like a dream come true, truly. I'm so sorry to hear that. I hope you have better dream soon. I don't. I don't. Jamie Loftus' Hot Dog book is called Raw Dog. Her novel coming in 27 is called The Tower.

We've listed her many wonderful podcast. Jamie, thank you for taking the time to talk to us. And the docket is clear. That's it for another episode of Judge John Hodgman. Judge John Hodgman, created by Jesse Thorne and John Hodgman, our social media specialist, Megan Rosati, the podcast edited by

AJ McKee, and Daniel Spear is our video producer. The show is produced by Jennifer Marmer. Photos from the show are posted on our Instagram account at Instagram.com slash Judge John Hodgman.

We're also on TikTok and YouTube at Judge John Hodgman pod. John, we always need cases from the Judge John Hodgman audience. Yes, we do.

And because it is mid-August here in Maine, of course, it's now Halloween time at every drugstore or the drugstore in town. Here's some questions

that we need for our Halloween episode. Do you buy your candy now, or do you wait till closer get it on sale? Or do you buy it now, eat it and repeat as many times as necessary before October 31st, which is better, making your front yard legitimately scary or just some classic jack-o-lanterns? Should the patterns in a pumpkin carving kit be used, or should you be freestyling it? What is the most iconic Halloween mascot? What's the most iconic Halloween mascot?

I guess that means ghost versus Dracula. versus werewolf? Or fruit, brute versus Elvira? Here we go. I'm thinking

cat. Cat on a pumpkin. Oh, yeah. Arched back. Yeah. Arched back cat. That could be right. Do you disagree?

Let us know. Write to us at Maximumfund.org slash JJHO. Give us all of your Halloween hot takes, controversial opinions, and disputes,

or you can email me directly at Hodgman at maximum fund.org. And we're eager to hear about all your disputes on any subject, not just Halloween. No case is too small. It's maximum fun.org

slash JJHO, and we will talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Maximum Fun. A worker-owned network of artists-owned shows. Supported directly by you.