Judge John Hodgman - The Ironman Trial-Athlon

Episode Date: April 6, 2011

Should an endurance event enthusiast (and former couch potato) be allowed to participate in an Ironman Triathlon against the wishes of his wife?

Welcome to the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, the Ironman triathlon. Tom brings the case against his wife, Vernique. Tom says that he's transformed his life, losing more than 80 pounds by running and participating in triathlon events. He's asked Vernique if he can train for an Ironman triathlon, which includes a full marathon, plus a 2.4 mile swim and 112 miles of cycling. Vernique says Tom's gone over the edge and the Ironman is simply too risky. Will this dad become a real American hero through endurance sports? Or does a real hero dad protect his health for the sake of his family? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom.

Tom, if I could actually ask you to rise up and down five million times before we start, that would be great. I just want us to all get some cardio going. Jesse, would you mind swearing in the defendants and the complainants? Not at all. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do.

I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his only triathlon expertise is in the much less fact that his only triathlon expertise is in the much less grueling Olympic triathlon. I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman? You may be seated. Tom, you can continue doing chin-ups. Now, who is the complainant in this particular case?

Would that be you, Tom? Did you bring the case forward? I am the one who contacted you first. You are the plaintiff. All right. So what is the problem? You want to go on a crazy race? Yes. Oh, my God. Is he okay? Do we have a doctor?

Is he all right? You dropped out there for a second. Did you have a stroke? Did you collapse of exhaustion? No. All right. And I am a doctor myself, so that makes sense. I believe you're both doctors.

Is that correct? Correct. Tom, why don't you go ahead and explain your side of the story? So, yeah, I enjoy doing these races. They provide me motivation to keep going. I find that I – They provide you with motivation to keep going in life? Right.

Well, in terms of staying healthy, trying to exercise regularly, trying to eat healthy. You had been a slob before, right? For about 15 years. About 15 years? I was. All right. Right. What was your top weight?

265 pounds. I don't feel bad about asking this because people who lose a lot of weight, that's all they want to talk about. So 265 pounds. And you are how tall? 4'10"? 6'2". 6'2". 6'2".

Oh, 6'2", 265. And now what do you weigh? About 195. Nice work. So some time ago, you started doing crazy races and taking better care of yourself, right? Right. And- I was separated by my impending 40th birthday.

So when I was about 30, just after my 39th birthday- Look, sir, I can do the math. I understand 39 is near to 40. Go on. And, you know, I knew that I was out of shape, obviously. And I saw some particularly egregious photographs of me that looked like I was about to deliver twins. And just finally, you know, decided that, you know, enough was enough. And I had to change.

And I made a change that seems so stuck because I've been with it for a few years now. And now you want to undertake one of the craziest races of all time and it's called an Ironman Triathlon because that is the length that Rhodey had to travel to alert Tony Stark that the Mandarin was on the loose again? I think it actually is related to the comic books. The first ones were done in Hawaii, I think in the 80s or so. And a small group of guys who started doing these decided that they would call themselves Iron Man if they finished the race. So the longest race you've done so far is a half Iron Man?

Correct. So that's a, what, a six-mile swim, a 50-mile bike race, and a 10-mile run? Approximately, right. You're carrying someone on your back, or you have to wear some kind of crazy outfit, or is there any other bizarre thing that you have to do in this? No, there's no carrying logs or running through mud or stealing balls or any of that kind of stuff. And your wife, Vernique, does not want you to do this. Is that correct?

Correct. All right. Before I ask you to speak, Vernique, let me just – Tom, as you would describe it, what is the crux of the disagreement? It's a significant amount of training to do it. I would have to take things up a lot. So I know that it's not only going to affect me but my family for about six months leading up to it in terms of how much time I need to devote to getting ready for it. So certainly, although I don't feel like I need

permission per se to do something, it would make life much easier if they were buy-in. I need to fully disclose my bias in this case, which is that I hate sports and I hate moving at more than two miles per hour without the aid of a motor in general. And so while you were running your 12 and a half miles this morning, I was watching cartoons and making pancakes, but I just, it's, it's a, it's an alien world to me. And I love when, when sports gets to the point where it's actually going to murder you, it suddenly stops being sports or a race and it becomes an extreme endurance event. All right.

So there you go. But I'm not going to recuse myself because I appreciate your dedication to your enhanced endurance, muscle punishment and brain killing contest. And I do try to keep a good perspective. I do make pancakes and watch cartoons with my kids on many weekend mornings. Right. Well, that will all stop if I allow you to go forward with this. Vernique, let's talk now to Vernique, your wife.

Okay. How are you? I'm fine. How are you? All right. So what is your point of view on this? Well, my point of view is that before he did his one marathon, he actually promised that before he started training for that, that that would be his one and only lifetime

marathon. And pretty much the day he was done with that, he started lobbying for another marathon. And now not only does he want to do a third marathon, but he wants to do it in combination with, as you said, an extreme endurance event, which to me spells trouble. Right. And also, like you said, while the risks may not be huge for doing this, I think the risks are significant in terms of the time that it takes. I'm not saying that the risks may not be huge. You are a medical doctor, are you not? Yes, that it takes. I'm not saying that the risks may not be huge. You are a medical doctor, are you not? Yes, that's correct. I'm a family physician.

You're a husband psychotherapist? No, I'm a family physician. Oh, excuse me. I misheard or jumped to a conclusion. No, that's okay. I'm a family doctor. Understandably, you have a dog in this fight, but as a medical professional, what are the risks to the human body of doing a crazy race of this kind?

20% of Ironman finishers require medical attention at the finish line. And the other really interesting fact was that for any endurance event that's longer than three to four hours, the risk of death for that athlete, that includes the time of the race and the 24 hours right after the race race is the same as a 24-hour period for a cigarette-smoking, sedentary couch potato who spends the same 24 hours drinking beer and watching TV. Well, wait a minute. I'm not going to let you disparage my hobbies just because you're mad at your husband. No, no, no. I'm just saying that the risk of death is the same.

I'm saying both choices may not be healthy. First of all, I do not smoke cigarettes, and I don't anymore, and so that's not one of my hobbies anymore, and I'm glad of that. And I also hate beer because it makes me feel gassy. I'd like to talk to the clinician who ran this test, by the way. We're looking for college students who are smokers who are willing to sit around and drink for 24 hours. I just want to see how many of them die.

I have the feeling it might have been a population-based study. And I'm not arguing that exercise is bad. I fully support his exercise, but this is going too far. Tom, you have entered some evidence, some photographs indeed of the family event that you made of the half triathlon. And I'm looking at these photos here. I see you with two younger people who resemble you. I presume these are your offspring? And then my wife's offspring as well.

Oh, okay. Very good. And they are your sons? Correct. And you have two of them. And what are their ages? John is the older one who is 13 now, and James of the Under who is 10. Both of whom would like to see me

do a full Iron Man. But they're children, do you understand? This is true. They would also like to see you fire an AK-47 while base jumping off the Sears Tower in Chicago. Of course, they want to see you do a weird thing.

Their argument, which might have been planted into their heads, is that to see you do a weird thing. Well, their argument, which might have been planted into their heads, is that if I only do half of an Ironman, then it sends them the message that they only need to try half hard on their academics at school. And if we expect them to give 100%, then I should do 100% of an Ironman. I want you to repeat the assertion again, and then I am going to go get a cup of coffee and a bacon sandwich and listen while Vernique tears it apart. What again was the assertion? That if you don't do the craziest thing you can come up with, that your children won't do their homework? That they are inspired by the things that I've done. Sure.

To see me do the full thing, to see their dad reach the pinnacle of achievement in endurance sports. What if someone then comes up with a crazy double Ironman? What if someone comes up with a war machine race? That could happen. All right. Now, Tom, we just came up with a new race. We want you to swim for 30 miles and then we want you to get on a bicycle and bicycle vertically up a hill up Mount

Everest, then jump off it with a hang glider while running a spinning class in midair. And then we want you to run two marathons. We want you to run the Boston Marathon and the New York Marathon. Would you have to do that? That sounds awesome. You should trademark that. Through a weird legal loophole, once you say it on a podcast, it's already trademarked. Now I have to defend the trademark. So much busy work in doing a podcast. How much time, I mean, I see you here with your children while wearing a Speedo and goggles. I presume this was at the swimming portion, or is there an interpretive dance portion of this thing as well?

No, it was raining. That's why they're wearing rain ponchos. Oh, okay. I trucked a mile on the beach, down the beach with my husband to cheer him into the water, and then trucked the mile back to watch him come out of the water. They're very happy-looking photos. I mean, you look fantastic for a man of 43. Your sons look happy. Here you are with these other weird old men going through midlife crises who are presumably also doing this event.

And then there's a beach and a rainbow. Boy, what does that mean, right? Rainbow. But, you know, how long did it take to train for this Ironman triathlon? Eight to ten hours a week. Eight to ten hours a week. Okay. Do you have a full-time

job or have you given it all up to run? No, no. I'm actually an intensive care neonatologist. I can see how your line of work would not be inspiring to your boys. You have to obviously compensate with something else. You don't have a particularly demanding

or noble job to begin with, so you've got to make up for it by running real fast. I get it. The interesting thing, though, is that in that field of medicine, a lot of it, a lot of what I deal with is cardiovascular physiology and pulmonary physiology. Actually, the two disciplines actually feed into each other because as I learn more about exercise physiology.

I don't need to hear your TED talk. I'm just asking simple questions and I want some answers. How much time did you sacrifice with your family in order to train for this thing? Here are your options. A lot? A fair amount? Here are your options. A lot? A fair amount? No one really noticed. I think a little bit.

I mean, on the weekend... A fair amount, you big liar. So I do try to do most of my training after the kids go to bed. All right. What's the training going to be like for the full Ironman? Somewhere on the order of 15 hours a week

for about six months leading up to it. Wow. Okay. Six months leading up the order of 15 hours a week for about six months leading up to it. Wow. Okay. Six months leading up to it, 15 hours a week. Starting tomorrow? You're just waiting? This is the last step? You're just waiting for my permission and then you start running?

No, I probably won't. You're going to throw down your skype exit and just get out there and start running and they'll never see you again for six months? No, I would imagine it would be either next summer or the following summer. I would certainly need time to build up for it and pick exactly what race I want to do. Can you describe for me what it is you like about this experience?

It's a sense of euphoria. It is very addictive that you're able to do something like this. The Ironman, the championship of the Ironman is the one that's in Kona every year and people may see that on TV in the fall. I've had all of those channels blocked. Right.

These people have had heart transplants. There's double amputees who do this race. Right. And it's just – it's very inspirational. I mean, it's very overwhelming to be able to finish something like that. Is that the next step? Is it you're going to have a heart transplant and then do another one? If necessary.

I just need to know where it's going to end because the thing is that you do describe euphoria. And as someone who has occasionally had reason to run out of fright or terror, I do know that you reach a certain plateau and you get what is called the runner's meth high. And my question is, you know, the biggest accusation made against you, I think the most meaningful one, is that you broke a promise that you were going to do one marathon. And now you are trying to do 10 marathons all at once on the same day with, you know, after a heart transplant or whatever it is. Where does that promise stand now? Will this be your only triathlon? And if not, where does it go from here?

Well, certainly I would have to abide by your judgment. And if you were to lay down the law that I have permission to do one and only one, then the fear of John Hodgman would prevent me from ever trying a second one. You should be afraid, sir. Oh, you should be afraid. Right, right. Every time I watch The Daily Show, I'd be worried that you'd look into the screen and point your finger at me. So I would have to be very careful.

Right, because I participate in three extreme mental telepathy events a year where we stare at people and try to make their heads explode. Nothing has happened yet, but I'm getting really good at it. Can I raise one more issue that he has failed to mention? He broke his ankle in 1989, and he has pretty bad arthritis in that ankle and a bone spur that he actually even considered having surgically removed. And before he ran the marathon, he actually had to have a steroid injection into that ankle to even do and finish the marathon. So he has, you know, there are the general medical tests.

You had the steroid shot. Did you have the steroid shot? To see if it would help, which it didn't make a difference. Well, but you had it anyway. How do you know if it didn't make a difference? Oh, sorry, guys. Are you still talking? I just walked out of the room for a little while, and I'm dipping some bread into some lard. I don't care about the broken ankle. If you've done

half a triathlon, you obviously don't care about your broken ankle either. So let's just leave that on the table. I think I have what I need. Do you have any closing statements for Nick? I feel like you haven't had a chance to really lay into your husband, and that would amuse me. You know, I guess my closing statement is, you know, a promise is a promise. And I shouldn't have to rely on him to abide to a second promise when he didn't keep his first. So you would like him to just not compete in this event. But there are other events that he can continue to do, his 12 and a half mile wake up runs and everything else?

No, we've been fully supportive. I have been fully supportive of all his other exercise events. I just think additional marathons and especially in Ironman is too much and he needs to seek fulfillment in more constructive ways. All right. too much, and he needs to seek fulfillment in more constructive ways. All right. I think I'm ready to at least consider your evidence, and I'll go into chambers, and I'll make my decision, and then I'll come back, and boy, I'm going to let you both have it. Thanks.

Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom. Tom, while I'm in chambers, would you just do 1,000 crunches for me, please? Abdominal crunches. Starting right now. Very good. Thank you. Tom, I have a proposal for you. This is something that I've been working on. I don't know if it would solve the problem between the two of you. I'm going to leave that to Judge Hodgman, but it's just an idea I have. It's a triathlon that I came up with, and I haven't decided what superhero to name it after. Maybe Doctor Strange, possibly Mr. Mitzopitalik.

But this is what it is. It's the traditional biathlon, which is cross-country skiing and skeet shooting. And also you have to watch the 18 and a half hour feature film Berlin Alexanderplatz. I'm not familiar with that one. I'll have to find it. Vernique, it sounds like you're going to have a hard time adjusting to this decision if it goes against you. I have more faith that he would stick by this promise than the obvious broken promise in

the past. Tom, can you think of a nice way that we can tell Vernique that we don't have millions of listeners? Oh, don't worry. Don't worry. I will have all our friends and family listen to this. I will sick his mother on him. That's all I need to do. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. Well, this is a very difficult case to decide because on the one hand, I am horribly biased. I mean, when we talk about the Ironman Triathlon, I really do believe that Tony Stark had it right. People should not be moving without electronic aid. But at the same time, I also hear a man who is extremely passionate about this hobby that has come to overtake his life and his desire to achieve what is the, seemed to be the pinnacle. But you're

saying that maybe it's even not the pinnacle, that there may even be super duper triathlons yet to come. But more or less the big pinnacle that he is focused on. And it is hard to let go of that idea that you can do it because he probably could do it without dying. That's usually not something you ever want to embark upon with that rationale. I probably could do it without dying. But people do, in fact, embark upon those things all the time. I also think that it's important in a marriage for each person to support those passions and those hobbies, no matter how absolutely selfish they may be, because ultimately this is a journey into utter isolation. You know, it is indeed an inner journey as much as it is a physical journey.

Would you not agree, Tom? I do. Yeah, and it is a journey of self-discovery that he has gone through, a journey of self-transformation that he is going through, but ultimately one that is about as selfish as it can get. And so I think that there is a weird aspect here of like, well, how supportive should one be as a spouse? I'm sorry, I cannot say that because you have a passion to go to Antarctica and watch every episode of Doctor Who all the time, that's perhaps the most nerdy thing and non-athletic thing a person could do. But even then, it's sort of like, well, why would you leave your family to go watch all of Doctor Who? Trust me, guys, I've been through this with my own wife, so there you go.

We went to MIT. We understand. Okay, very good. I think Jesse Thorne's idea of a nerdathlon is actually very intriguing and might come into play in the sentencing process. And I think that you're right. Anything, if you go from an obese, whatever you were, 395 pound, four foot ten person into being not only 195 pounds, but suddenly six foot two. That's pretty amazing. And that's a good example. But what example are you sending if you are breaking promises? You did make a promise to only do one marathon.

Is that correct? I did. Can you provide any satisfactory explanation as to why it is compelling for you to break that promise? I didn't realize how amazing it would feel to finish it and wanted to feel it again. Exactly so. So that one time when I promised my family I was only going to do crack cocaine that one time until I realized crack cocaine is awesome. I saw that coming. Well, I mean, I think that there is clearly an addictive aspect to this. And, you know, I think that it's hard.

Do you know what I mean? To counsel someone to release their addict's grip on the glass pipe that is their passion. And especially if they really feel they can do it, and they probably can, and the spouse is saying no, because that could cause friction in a marriage. And I'd hate to see you guys getting into trouble, but I feel like eroding trust is a much, much more dangerous situation in a marriage. And I think it's something that you need to think about very seriously, Tom. Boy, oh boy, who am I to butt into people's lives?

I'm eating lard out of a can right now. But there you go. I'm saying this anyway. So my ruling is that you cannot do it. Do you understand what I'm saying? You must do other things that will be exciting to you, including I think you may need to undertake Jesse Thorne's Alexander Platts.

What is it, Berlin Alexander Plattsalon? Berlin Alexander Platts. Yeah, well, the Doctor Strange Triathlon. The Doctor Strange Triathlon. It works really good, Judge Hodgman, because the second part of the biathlon is the shooting. You have to slow down your heart rate, which works really well when you're spending 15 and a half hours with Fassbinder investigating a single character. Okay, I think Bailiff Jesse

Thorne's been enjoying a little bit of five-hour energy drink on the side. We've got to talk about his addiction soon as well. But I will say this. My ruling is, Tom, that I know you could do it. I know you could do it, and I know it would be amazing. I can feel, even I am rooting for you in some degree, but I think it really would be better for you and your family if you were able to graciously release your grip and let this one go.

There's lots of other things you can do, and I think that while it will leave a hole in your heart for the rest of your life, at least you still have a functioning heart. This is a really hard one, and it almost pains me to say, before I can back out, I must say this is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules, that's all. Tom, how do you feel? Well, it's never good not to win, but I understand both my wife's argument as well as his.

Vernique, do you buy that? I think I'd better avoid him for the next half hour. But he's really lobbied hard also to have one exemption to his promise to only do one marathon. He really wants to do the Chicago marathon when he turns 45, which would be better for his body because it's flat, unlike the flying pig marathon. And to help him overcome his disappointment over this judgment, I'm willing to consider that request. If you guys are going to take half an hour out, I mean, can I suggest the first half hour of Berlin Alexanderplot? That's like 3% of the total run time.

We may actually need to cook dinner for our kids first, since we're three hours later than you. And we all did actually. I did my first 5K run this morning along with our 10-year-old and our 13-year-old. Oh, my God. Will you guys just calm down? Just calm down with the running. There's too much running.

Some kind of sick cult. It was a fundraiser for the American Heart Association. Well, that's terrific. Do you know what? I'll write a check as well. I'll write it in my cholesterol-laden blood. I absolutely support the lifestyle of extreme cardiovascular health that you have chosen to live. I think you also are doing a great job of supporting one another and respecting one another.

of supporting one another and respecting one another. And I think that you also need to model the keeping of promises is a big part of what a marriage is. And then I think you guys got the whole package. And I would like to hear you say, frankly, Vernique, that you're going to let Tom run that Chicago Marathon on the air. Yes, I will let Tom run the Chicago Marathon at age 45. Is that good, Tom, or are you just sort of like bullshit? That's not the triathlon.

No, that would be very exciting. I want to do it. I'm looking forward to it. And seriously, guys, go have a steak dinner someplace. We went out,

we went out to Buca di Beppo after the race. So trust me, we have plenty of dietary indulgences. It has been a pleasure to talk to you guys. And thank you for hearing me out. Tom Veronique, thank you so much for being on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. It's still the Judge

John Hodgman podcast and I'm still bailiff Jesse Thorne. We've now retired to the chambers of Judge John Hodgman. I'm enjoying a scotch and a delicious three footick steak. That's why you had that wood saw. But I have quite a pile of paperwork here, Jesse.

Do you think we could clear some of these cases out with some snap judgments? Absolutely. Here's one from Kelly. She says, my husband and I have been married for two years, and I have celebrated three birthdays during that time. Before we were married, I always opened my birthday gifts as they arrived in the mail, saving gifts from the people I'm celebrating with for my actual birthday. I like to spread out my birthday experience. one should open gifts exclusively on one's birthday, thus depriving one of continued gratification and instead condensing the experience into one single evening birthday extravaganza.

For the sake of our marriage, we wish to settle this matter. So, Judge Hodgman. She should open the presents as she gets them in the mail because the person isn't there to see them opening anyway. It's really none of Andy's business, and he can open them all at once if he wants and have a weird ghost birthday party where he imagines all the friends who have sent him presents. And he can look at them, sort of look into the corner and pretend they're there in a weird way, sort of thank them and pretend that he's having a big birthday party. But that's not what's happening.

He's not 10 years old. She should open the presents when they arrive or whenever she feels like it. It's none of his business. That is all. Here's one from Tim. He says, I feel strongly that knocking on the closed door of a single occupant public restroom is a pointless and thoughtless activity. Everything the knocker hopes to accomplish can be easily achieved through simply trying the door handle. My wife disagrees. She feels that the risk of a potential user having left the door handle. My wife disagrees. She feels that the risk of a potential user having left the door unlocked

is enough to merit the use of a knock. What do you say, Judge Hodgman? Either a knock or a jiggling of a locked door handle is going to freak that person out. We've all been there. A knock, I think, though, is maybe 5% less freaky outy than someone desperately trying the door handle trying to get in. Because you feel like you are at your most vulnerable when you're in there. And you feel like someone is coming to kill you.

So I think a knock is the only polite thing to do, as people have known since the invention of doors. Now, there is another issue. What do you say if you are using the bathroom? You do not want to say, excuse me, I am peeing. Well, you may want to say that, but it's not appropriate. Nor do you want to say anything else that you might be doing in there. Someone should knock. If you're in there, you'll say, I'll be right out. And then everyone feels fine. Here's another case. This one from Jerry. My wife and I have been married for 11 years. In that time, we've had many disputes, some easily reconciled, others more intractable.

One especially tenacious argument, no doubt common among long-married couples, revolves around the meaning of the famous Smuckers tagline. With a name like Smuckers, it has to be good. My wife argues that the tagline is a straightforward declaration of the quality of the Smucker's brand. If you see the name Smucker's on a jar, you can be confident that the jelly or jam held within that jar is of the highest quality. I argue that Smucker's is such a terrible name for food stuff that the company is confident the food will overcome consumers' negative reaction. So, what say you, Judge John Hodgman? The actual answer from the Smucker's homepage, Smuckers.com, the slogan has been used by

our company since the 1950s. It initially referred to the unusual family name, Smucker, which sounds like a boot coming out of mud, with the connotation that since it was such an odd and perhaps foul and profane name, the company had better produce outstanding products. I added some words there that weren't there. As the company's reputation has grown and the name Smucker has become associated with high-quality products, the slogan meaning change somewhat.

According to customers, if you see the Smucker name on a product, you have the assurance the product will be good. That's just marketing spin. The reality is Smuckers rhymes with something that you would not want associated with your wholesome brand of jam. Therefore, the company said with a name as weird and as potentially pornographic as Smuckers, this jam has got to be pretty good. Well, that's all we've got this week and we'll talk to you next week on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. Thank you. Would you help me saw off another piece of this steak?

Now you have one of those two-handled saws like a lumber operation? Of course I do, Jesse. This is my judge's chambers. The Judge John Hodgman Podcast is a production of maximum fun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support this show and all of our shows at maximum fund.org slash donate.

The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne and edited by Matt Gourley. His great podcast, by the way, is called super ego. You can find it in iTunes or online at gosuperego.com. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, email us and be sure and include your telephone number.

The email address is hodgman at maximumfund.org. If you have thoughts about the show, you can always comment on it on our message board, forum.maximumFun.org. If you have thoughts about the show, you can always comment on it on our message board, forum.maximumfun.org. We'll see you online and next time right here on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.