Judge John Hodgman - The Lion's Den

Episode Date: December 14, 2010

A married couple disagrees: what is a den?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, the case of the lion's den. Shannon and Greg are newlyweds with an intractable dispute. Greg says a den is a man cave, a rec room, a place with barca loungers, brandy snifters, and game tables. Shannon disagrees. She calls the couple's office a den, confusing and baffling Plaintiff Greg. Greg's case, Shannon should be prohibited from calling their office a den.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. You may be seated. Actually, get up again and then sit down. Wait, get up again and wait until I say you may be seated. Actually, get up again and then sit down. Wait, get up again and wait until I say you may be seated. Sure. You may be seated. Bailiff Jesse, would you swear the plaintiff and defendant in, please? Please rise. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, no matter what? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, no matter how borderline insane it may seem? Yes. Yeah, I do. You may be seated. Thank you. Thank you, Bailiff Jesse. First of all, a little attitude there, Shannon.

Everything okay? I just worry that I'm going to have to call this the office and then I'm going to be so unhappy. Okay. But I trust you completely, Your Honor. Completely. You have no choice but to trust me completely. For I am going to listen to both sides. I'm going to tell you who is right.

And then I'm going to tell you who is right and then I'm going to tell you who is wrong. Greg, you are the one who brought this complaint. Would you please give me your opening statement? You were talking about a room in your house. Is that correct? Yes. My contention is that this room in our house should be referred to as the office. It's where our desktop computer is located.

It's where we do our business. Shannon is a costume designer in our fair city, and she does a lot of her work in there, so her sewing machine is located there. And it's a place of work. So I think it's referred to as the office because I was raised to believe that a den is a place that has a television and it's a place for recreation, a place for oftentimes a man to go and to be a man with his various recreations. And I think there's evidence to back me up to that effect.

So I think our room is an office. We live in a small apartment with two bedrooms. One of them is an office. We don't have a den. And it's confusing to me when she tells me that something isn't a den. I understand you're getting a little flustered. Shannon? Yeah, that's fine.

What is your response to this? I am not arguing about the definitions of offices or dens. I see the same thing as a place of work and a place for a man to relax. I completely understand that. However, I have never seen anyone work in this office. There are bookcases and a computer that is used largely for recreation. And my sewing machine, which is the only thing I think we ever actually do in this room, is something that I gain great pleasure from. And I just think that a den, which is how I was raised to refer to the room that was not a bedroom that was used for recreation, I think that that is what we have.

Okay, well, this goes directly to your child rearing, apparently Well first a little history. The term den is not very well defined. It is largely interchangeable historically for study or the studiolo of Renaissance Italy which then in turn became known as the cabinet or closet in post-Renaissance England. These are recent inventions historically having to do with the relatively recent invention of privacy, because before we had these little rooms in the house, everyone would hang out in the great medieval hall, often in the nude with food all over their bodies.

It was all the same to them. The study became a place of retreat within the home, often, as you say, Greg, for a man, but it did not historically have the real connotation of manliness until it came to suburban America, where the home was very much the province of the lady of the house, and the man retreated like a pathetic, wounded animal into his private burrow or den or scraped out bit of earth, what we now call a rec room or a man cave. By the way, the man cave is the most recent and perhaps the least palatable term for this room.

But it is true that it's terrible, isn't it? It is true, though, if you connect several man caves together, it becomes a man warren. And the underground defense compound known as NORAD is the best example of this. But the crux of the problem here is that this is all very fluidly defined. Now, there are regional variations on what DEN means,

but Greg, you feel that that's not a factor here? No, not at all. In fact, Shannon and I were born just 10 days apart, just 25 miles, or actually in the same hospital, and we are raised 25 miles away from each other. Wow. But the crux of this dispute is, you both said, I was raised to believe a den was blah blah, and the other one says, I was raised to believe a den was blah blah. This was not a big part of my child rearing

the definitions of the rooms of the house. It was not something I learned either in Sunday school or at my mother's knee. considering the definitions of the rooms of the house was not something I went to, I learned either in Sunday school or at my mother's knee. But did you have a den in your home growing up, Shannon? Yes. It was a converted bedroom that had a computer in it and where we kept our books. And it had sort of a comfy chair where you would go and sit and read. And Greg, did you have a den growing up? No, my family did not have a den, but we had a living room in the upper level where a television was

and a family room in the basement. But my closest friend Luke, his family very distinctly had a den, and it was the place where they had their bumper pool table and their books and their large screen television. Boy, oh boy, Rip Rejection. Yeah, yeah, we're Sega Genesis. Yeah, and a lot of leather furniture. Yes.

I want to hang out there now. And I think you do, too. It was a very important, formative place for me, yeah. Yeah, and it's been missing in your life ever since you moved to Omaha, isn't it? To a degree, yes. Yeah, yeah, that's part of the reason why you resent this hellhole that you have all your junk in being referred to as a den. Because it is in no way near the paradise that you enjoyed as a child. Exactly, yes.

It pales in comparison. You have what Freud called den envy or denvy. But I am not a psychiatrist. I am a judge. You provide some evidence via the electronic mails. Is that so? Mm-hmm. These are photographs of the room that is in dispute?

Yes. I sent them in around noon our time today. All right. Let's put them into the record, Jesse. These are photographs of the room in dispute, the unnamed room. We'll enter them as exhibits A, B, C, and D. Boy, you guys really like this room. I wanted to get the fullness of it.

They're entered into the record as exhibits A through D and will be available in the discussion thread of this case on forum.maximumfund.org. Now let's talk about your living room. You didn't send in photos of that. Is it your only living room? Yes, it is. And has a television in it? Yes. We have a living room and we have an office, but when she refers to a den, it's because I get confused because I think of a den as a place with a television. My biggest concern is that when I say the book is in the den or I think I left that in the den, even though the words are somewhat interchangeable in this part of the country, he looks at me like I'm speaking French and just sort of like blinks and then goes, wait, do you mean the office?

So I was willing to have us refer to it as two things, but since he is now insisting that I should change what I call it because he cannot adjust to change, I think that the person who is being more bullheaded should make the adjustment and say, if I can only have it be called one thing, it should be called her thing, because she is pretty and I love her. That's a very strong closing argument. I have to say, the court felt a little flutter of the heart there. But Greg, you are made of stone. What is your closing argument, sir?

While I do not dispute the prettiness or kindness of my wife, I do dispute the simple fact that we do not have a den in our house. I think of a den as a place for a family, a very archetypal family. You know, I think of a den as a place that you see in sitcoms, on television, and it's always a basement. And it's always a little bit clammy, maybe, but still somehow inviting, still somehow welcoming. And we just aren't at that place in our lives yet. We have a lovely home. We have a lovely apartment. And eventually we'll have a very lovely den. But it does, like you said earlier,

it does sting a little bit to have our office, which is a meager, meager place to be referred to as a den, which I think when I have my den, it will be glorious. Okay, easy, easy. Calm down. I'm prepared to make my ruling. I'm going to go into my chambers for a moment and look over this evidence, and I'll be back in a moment with my decision. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman retires to his chambers. Shannon, I'd like to ask you the first question. my argument is just the fact that he is so immobile. And I was really hoping that I'd be able to get that in so that it's not about semantics with me. It's about family and caring and being right. Greg, why are semantics so important to you?

It's not just the semantics of it, but it is the simple hope that one day I will have a den. And right now we just don't, we aren't there yet and we're working towards it. Yeah. Greg, how long have you been trapped? No, no. I will honestly say that I do not. Shannon, why won't you allow Greg to have a den? I try. There's not a lot of room in here for any leather chairs or big screen TVs or anything. The den that he wants, we can't really have. But if you just define a den by my terms, we already have it. You know, I'm trying to let him dream his, you know, live his dreams today. Do you think that the situation would be different if you, Greg, played less video games or

if you, Shannon, took up a career other than local theater costume design? I think that would solve a lot of problems, Jesse. I have one final question for you. I believe that I recognize your voices from a past appearance on my other program, Jordan Jesse Go. On this show, two people who coincidentally had the same first names as you were about to be married and were deciding what last name they should choose because neither wanted to take the other's last name. It was a segment, the premise of which was that those asking for something to be named agreed

solemnly to abide by the decision of myself and my co-host Jordan Morris. We suggested that those two people change their last name to the wonderful last name of Rocket, R-O-C-K-I-T, like the Herbie Hancock song. I can't help but notice that from what I can see here, your last names are Jaxes. Do you have any explanation for this sickening turn of events? Well, we had a little bit of a legal issue in that if you change your name to something, they want to know why. And it was easier for us to suggest a hybrid to the Nebraska DMV and the Social Security Office than a Herbie Hancock song, but we have made preparations that when we do bring a child into the world,

we'll have a middle name of Rocket or perhaps even a last name of Rocket to appease what has been has been a really an outcry from the Max Fund community as to our injustice. And I'm very, very sorry. Yes, we are both very, very sorry. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom. Thank you. You may be seated. You guys both look very sorry about something. Was Bailiff Jesse bothering you about something? Just our conscience, Your Honor.

Bailiff Jesse, I told you to stop pricking the defendant's conscience. You know what I mean. Consciences. Judge Hodgman, I am driven by a higher power. Very well. Well, I've given this quite a bit of thought, and I've looked at your messy room quite a bit here. And one thing I noticed is that you seem, on your bookshelf, I've used technology to look closely here, and I noticed that you have a copy of the Daily Show book, America the Book, and its sequel, Earth the Book. I do not see a copy of either the areas of my expertise or more information than you require.

Books authored by me. Do you own those books? We do own more information than you require. It's just on a more prominent bookshelf. I see. Yeah, it's next to the bed. It's closer to the bed. I see.

Okay, very well. So I just wanted to clarify that right then. Okay, very well. So I just wanted to clarify that right then. Now, most people in the world, of course, know the term den as you intimated, Greg, from television. I mean, you had the one den in your life that was so formative to you and has, you know, obviously scarred your memory for the rest of your life. But most people, of course, know the den from the Brady Bunch. That is the place where I first heard the room. That's the place where I first heard the word, den, watching the Brady Bunch. And so I took the liberty of going online and getting the blueprints of the Brady Bunch house

so that I could look at Mike's den. You will remember that this was a room just off the landing to the right of the staircase behind the big stone fireplace. You know that? Did they allow you to watch the Brady Bunch in Nebraska? Yes, I'm familiar with the floor plan. And that's where you had this weird architecture table there and a few leather seats and a rotary telephone and like all of the many definitions of den provided, this was probably the most private room in the house, unquestionably an adult room.

It was a refuge from their 45 squabbling children, a place where Mike and Carol could go and be grownups and have private conversations and not get hit in the face with footballs or braces all the time. The den is by definition a selfish space. The one time that Mike shared this space is when he let Greg use it as his room. Do you remember that one? And Greg filled it with lava lamps and tapestries and almost certainly abused himself in there. It was a terrible situation. And by the end of 30 minutes, Greg was evicted. The room was put back to order and balance was restored. What else do we know about it? There's no TV in it.

As far as I can tell. And certainly as my memory suggests, is there any, any difference of opinion there? No. I can't recall. No, I do recall that it was always very, very tidy. And it speaks of a kind of maturity and a kind of over-determined serenity in a world full of chaos. This is not what you have. You have a room full of chaos, and what I presume is a house full of chaos, that you share together.

You do not have what I would call a den, right? Because this is not a retreat of any kind. You guys do not have anything to retreat from. You have two desks in there. You presumably work in there together from time to time. You share your phallic sculptures in there together. I would have to say that the best description of what this is, given that it is clearly purely a workspace, would be an office or perhaps a junk salon,

but you do not have a den of any kind. And nor do you need one. Greg, are you listening? Look, I almost never find... Yes, sir. Anyone who's been listening to this podcast over the years and years and years that I have been doing it,

I almost never find in favor of a husband because they are usually stupid and wrong. And you should be very glad to be married to Shannon because she is not stupid and not wrong. And you should be very glad to be married to Shannon because she is not stupid and not wrong. But I have to find in favor of Greg in this case, Shannon, you must never refer to that room as a den again. It is simply not accurate. It would be as if you were referring to it as a solarium or a fencing parlor. What's more, it is making your husband very sad every time you say that

because it is conjuring up the image of a den such as Mike Brady had or the sort of leather-clad, rec room, bumper pool paradise that he never got to have but could only visit from time to time of his childhood. And it is reminding him that he is not able to provide that for himself or for you as yet. And this is making him very upset.

And plus it is confusing to him because as I pointed out, he's stupid and wrong, generally speaking. Now, before, before you get, begin to gloat, Greg, let me say this. I have a den. I have an office that is not only separate from my home, but I mean, not only separate from the rest of my apartment here in Brooklyn, the Omaha of New York City, but it is separate, completely physically separate from my home. It is across the street from my home. It is specifically a place where I can retreat from my family, whom I love, but I need privacy from in order to get my podcast and done. And I'm telling you, this is not a paradise. This is a very, very, very sad place. You can hear my voice echoing around in this largely empty room in a depressing way. You can hear my voice echoing around in this largely empty room in a depressing way. It's either going to be this sort of like empty, badly decorated, you know, sort of killing room like mine. Or you're going to put a lot of money into it and get all kinds of wacky glassware for your bar and bumper pool and an authentic next generation Star Trek, the next generation pinball machine. And you're going to look like an idiot for putting all this money into this thing. And all that's going to happen is you're going to sit in there and be lonely.

Now, you don't need this in your life. You guys, this may be your future, but it does not need to bother you now. Not now, while you are still happy, sitting very near one another at your respective desks, surrounded by all your toys and junk. This is a time you should enjoy. So I sentence you, Shannon, to never refer to this room as a den again. You may call it the office and nothing else. I sentence you both to straighten it up in there. And for heaven's sake, I don't care where you keep your original copy of my book. Buy some new ones and put them in the photo if you're going to send them to me. Think about it. It's common courtesy. Judge John Hodgman rules. Buy some new ones and put them in the photo if you're going to send them to me. Think about it.

It's common courtesy. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is the sound of a gavel. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Shannon, do you feel that you've learned anything from this case? Coming into it, I was really worried that I was going to lose, but I think Hodgman is right, and I should not be making Greg sad at his current surroundings by calling it a den. And I really do need to clean in here, and if I would have known that you were taking

pictures in here, I would have. Greg, is there hope for your marriage? Yes. I think our marriage is strong, and I appreciate the judges' admonishment of my belief that a den is a place of value. I'm going to remove the Doctor Who pinball machine from my eBay watch list. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Excuse me. Wait a minute.

Judge Sean Hodgman is back. There's no need. I was just listening from my chambers. There's no need to go to drastic measures here You can still get the Doctor Who pinball machine I'm just saying Don't get a next generation Star Trek the next generation pinball machine

Mr. and Mrs. Rocket Thank you for your time Thank you Thank you Jesse Thank you John Hodgman The Judge John Hodgman podcast Is produced by Julia Smith and myself, Jesse Thorne, for MaximumFun.org. MaximumFun.org is supported by your donations.

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