Judge John Hodgman - The Long-Sleeved Arm of the Law

Episode Date: December 30, 2015

Blair brings the case against her husband Jon. In hot weather, Jon would like to wear one of his few treasured tank tops to cool off and feel the breeze. Blair thinks that tank tops on men look terrible and expose their sweaty arms to the masses. 

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, the long-sleeved arm of the law. Blair brings the case against her husband, John. In hot weather, John would like to wear one of his few treasured tank tops to cool off and feel the breeze. Blair thinks the tank tops on men look terrible and expose their sweaty arms to the masses. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Truth is, I'll never know all there is to know about you, just as you'll never know all there is to know about me. Humans are by nature too complicated to be understood fully. So we can choose either to approach our fellow human beings with suspicion or to approach them with an open mind, a dash of optimism, and a great deal of candor. Bailiff Jesse, swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that the only garment he ever wears is his beloved Parisian night suit? I do. I do. Very well. Judge Hodgman?

Jesse, what is a Parisian night suit? I ask you, founder of the menswear website and podcast and web show put this on what is a parisian night suit a parisian night suit is a great garment uh that the great paul feig owned as a teenager and then made into a storyline on the great television program freaks and geeks oh of course i was thinking uh that you had me dressing up as the great french anti-hero fantomas look it up f-a-n-t-o-m-a-s look it up on your on your web browser of choice i don't i don't have time to describe it to you because poor blair and john are still standing up blair and john you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors can Can either of you name the person whom I was quoting as I entered the courtroom? I don't know where the quote comes from. It's not a piece of culture. It's not

a script or a book or anything else. It's a quote from a person, probably given during an interview, and that narrows it down for you to one of the seven billion people on earth. John, you've been drug into this courtroom against your will. Therefore, it's your choice. You can either guess first or make Blair guess first. I'll have Blair guess first. Blair, you have been selected to guess first. Commence guessing, Blair.

I don't know. A presidential candidate? A presidential candidate is her guess. All right. I'll put that down. Without commenting on its rightness or wrongness, I turn now to John. John, what is your guess? I guess it was not a presidential candidate. All guesses are wrong, though I appreciate your skill at playing the game. Well, I guess

it's not wrong in the sense that, John, you are more right than Blair, but you're still wrong because you didn't name the person. Let me see if I can walk you through this. When I construct the obscure cultural reference for each case, my ideal situation is that something about the case sparks some memory of some piece of culture that I love because it affords me the opportunity to share that piece of culture with you and all the listeners. But you know, sometimes you just don't got any, you don't, you don't have any movies or books or songs or poems,

uh, or cultural moments in your life relating, say to tank tops. Sometimes it's not so easy making that cultural reference. And, uh, sometimes you go sometimes you go to a website like a good quotes or a brainy quote, and you type in tank top to see if anyone has ever anywhere said any, anything interesting about a tank top, because that's what this case is about today. And when you type in tank top into this quote website, it says there are no quotes about tank tops. Did you mean to ask for

a quote from tom hanks and at that point i said sure i guess i did and it turns out tom hanks has said a lot of things and you know what they're all great just like everything else he does the words that come out of his mouth are great and humane and wonderful. I don't know if Tom Hanks is a listener to this podcast. If he isn't, it's the one bad decision he seems to have made in his career. But let me just say, that guy is a first-class guy, and I hope that someday he'll be in the courtroom. But right now I have both Blair and John. You guys were never on Bosom Buddies.

No, you guys were never... You never flew to the moon almost and then had to fly back you guys just live your life and have a fight about tank tops is that not right blair yes so blair your husband john uh he's a he's a nice person you're you're happy to be married to him correct yes very happy all right but the problem is he owns two tank tops, which frankly is a deal breaker in most relationships. And you would like me to prohibit him from bringing these tank tops with you guys on vacation. First of all, where are you going on vacation? We are going to Barbados.

Barbados. Really? Where in Barbados. Barbados, really? Where in Barbados? I think it's on the western coast. We've never been there before, but a little town called Holtown. Holtown. Yeah, sure. That is on the western coast. And you're not that far from one of the greatest things I've ever experienced. There is an amazing green monkey preserve in the middle of Barbados, maybe a little bit northeast of where you're going.

And you get to walk through this forest and there are monkeys everywhere and they're just all hanging out with you. And then other animals, tortoises, kind of wander through and everything else. And it's a lovely experience. And I encourage you to do it. And you're going to have a wonderful time in Barbados,

which is a lovely place. It's also a hot place where sometimes you don't want to be wearing as much clothes as you would be wearing, say, in Brooklyn, New York in December. Tank tops, for our foreign listeners who might not know the term, are what, Blair? How would you describe a tank top? And I encourage you to use as prejudiced language as you would like. describe a tank top and I encourage you to use as prejudiced language as you would like. So a tank top is a shirt that I would say is not only sleeveless but has also rather thin straps. So I think like there's a difference between a sleeveless shirt and a tank top, definitely, especially for men. Um, and my husband has one of,

one of his tank tops is particularly, um, it has particularly thin straps and kind of a lowish scoop neck. Um, we're going to get, we're going to get to the, to the precise, the precise offenses of each tank top in a moment. But suffice to say, if, for example, I don't want to get letters from people all over the world, probably people in England going, oh, we don't call it a tank top. We call it a jumper trainer or something like that. I want to be clear. Basic athletic T-shirt without sleeves. Named, in fact, after one piece old timey bathing costumes that both men and women wore when they would go to public swimming pools and indoor public swimming pools, which are called tanks. Did you know that? Tanks. That's what they were called. So that's why they're so named.

And you would like me to prohibit him from bringing them with him on vacation. And indeed, you want all of his shirts in Barbados to have sleeves of some kind. Is that reasonable to say, Blair? Yes. And I would also like if you could prohibit him from buying more, either when we're on vacation or when we're back home. Sleeves for the rest of your life, John. That's what Blair wants. Why is that unreasonable? John, that's what Blair wants. Why is that unreasonable? So that that's a deal breaker for me. I think I do need to buy more tank tops. The tank tops. You guys, I never I never perform marriages in my position as a fake Internet judge, but I will perform a divorce right now if that's what you're saying. John, why is it unreasonable not to be allowed to buy sleeveless shirts?

I like sleeveless shirts. I think they're comfortable. I think they're functional. I currently don't have many tank tops in my wardrobe. I would like to get more tank tops, maybe an agreeable tank top. If I could find one agreeable tank top my wife and I could agree on,

I would be a happy man. And clarify for me, you're talking about tank tops that would be worn as a shirt outside and in public, not a sleeveless undershirt, but a shirt that is designed to be worn as a garment. Correct. I have sleeveless undershirts. As far as I know, my wife doesn't have a problem with them.

What I would like is a tank top that I could wear as a shirt. I could go on vacation with it to warm places, or I could enjoy a Saturday doing errands on a hot day wearing one. And where do you live? We live in Queens. You live in New York City? It gets hot in New York City. And how long have you guys been married? A little over two years. And may I ask your ages? I am 33.

I'm 30. John, you say that you don't have many tank tops in your wardrobe. Can you quantify how many tank tops you have at the moment? Sure. I have one shirt I would qualify as a tank top. There's another garment in my wardrobe that I would more call a jersey, but I think it's equally as offensive to Blair. Is it like a basketball jersey?

Yeah. How many sleeveless rompers do you have? I have no sleeveless rompers. Okay. Just wanted to get all that out there. Okay, great. There are two shirts, John, in your wardrobe that Blair at least calls tank tops.

She also refers to them as the two worst shirts any person has ever owned. In her initial petition to this court. Blair, let's talk about them. Will you describe them? You sent in evidence and I'm going to go down to the pictures of the tank tops. We'll just call them tank tops, even though John would call it a jersey jumper trainer or whatever. Tank top number one is black. Tell me what I'm looking at here.

So the black and white number is the one. It has kind of thinner straps. So a lot of guys will wear a muscle tee, you know, like a shirt with the sleeves cut off. But this actually has some rather thin kind of tank toppy straps. It kind of scoops down so you can see, you know, a good portion, I would say, of his chest. And like the armpit holes are pretty long too so like when he has it on you can almost see part of his ribs on the sides um so it's pretty like you know scoops pretty low it says locals only on it and it has a picture of like a surfing ghoul ninja guy, which is like totally ridiculous because we bought it when we were on our honeymoon

in Costa Rica in a tourist store. But it says locals only. So, yeah. So, John, this is a pretty low neckline here. Do you like showing off your chest and pretty low pit line too you like showing off your chest and armpit hair i don't i don't think it's that low i mean i compared to the tank tops that that i see on the street in the neighborhood i don't think it's the lowest of of neck lines or uh arm lines i i i guess it'd be lower than maybe other tank tops,

but so be it. It's got a cool graphic on it. It reminds me of our honeymoon, and I like it. And tank top number two, the red number, Blair, this looks like just a basic red tank top to me. I don't even know what this material is. But on the sides, it's essentially like plastic. So there's no stretch or give to it.

And it's a little small for John and kind of hits him like right, you know, like where his pants sit. And honestly, I don't even know how he gets it on because it's like this stiff kind of plasticky material. Oh, yeah. Now I see that the side panels look like material that you would, they look like ballistic nylon or tent material. Yeah, it's bad.

And it smells really bad. Oh, right. We don't have those smell photos on the internet yet, but that's coming. John, defend your tank tops. Why do you love these pieces of clothing? What do they mean to you? What are their stories? Well, the first one mentioned is a relic of our honeymoon. Reminds me of good memories. I will want to highlight that this was purchased right in front of Blair. I will want to highlight that this was purchased right in front of Blair. She saw me purchase it.

There was no hesitation when I purchased it. I guess it was our honeymoon and she didn't want to start a fight, but I did buy it in front of her. The other red. Hold on one second, John. Blair. Sure. Blair. Yes.

When John purchased this shirt in front of you, did something inside of you go, oh my God, I've made a horrible mistake marrying this man? I definitely, like, I know I felt confused because it was not in line with his personality. Did you wait, John? Did you wait until you had locked it down

before you revealed this horrible side of yourself? You're like, now that we're married, I want to share something with you. I like to wear sleeveless surfer shirts. I'm imagining the priest saying, and you are man and wife. And John just reaches across each hand to the opposite shoulder and tears off his sleeves like hulk hogan john what about the red jersey as you call it and i don't want to hear about why it's not a tank top it doesn't matter your your wife says that it doesn't fit you it looks bad on you she doesn you, it's too small for you, and it smells bad,

but you want it because why? I agree with all those things. This garment was purchased when I was in high school, so it's bordering 20 years old. Is that part of why you love it? I don't even know if I love it. It's there, it's in my wardrobe, and it's one of two garments. Where is it right now?

I think it's in our bedroom closet. How far away is that? How far away is it for me right now? It's a few miles, but... I was going to instruct John to, in an immediate summary judgment that will not affect my overall judgment with regard to tank tops in the future, that he should go and get it and throw it in the garbage right now.

But John, whatever I rule, that red thing is going to go in the garbage or be donated. If that's fair to me, what I would like though, That's fair to me. What I would like, though, is then the ability to replace that red tank top jersey garment with another tank top. I will say I find it interesting that you sent in evidence of the tank tops without you in them.

John, why didn't you model these tank tops so we can see how great you look in them? I would have if given the opportunity. Are you wearing a tank top right now? No, I'm not. Why not? You love them. Yeah, I love them, but I love them as weekend wear. Today is a work day, and

I do like to just wear normal business attire during the week. You don't want to wear a tank top to your job? What's your job? I'm a city planner for the city of New York. Thanks for all the planning. I appreciate that. He works on Coney Island primarily.

There are still parts of the city that feel a little improvised, if you know what I mean. Let's plan those out. So make the case, John. You want to hang on to Mystic Surfers locals only, and you want to get at least one more tank top. Make the case for the tank tops here, because it's not something I would ever wear.

On a hot and humid day in New York City, it can be very unpleasant. A hot and humid day in New York City can be very unpleasant. A tank top is both comfortable and practical when going outside and doing errands, going to the gym, exercising, doing a variety of things that one would do on a hot and humid Saturday. The issue with wearing a T-shirt on one of these hot and humid days is that they can get pretty sweaty and they can really damage the T-shirt. I consider myself to be more of the sweatier individual per se. So if you're wearing a T-shirt and you're sweating on a hot and humid day, that T-shirt is going to be ruined. And then you need to replace a T-shirt and you're sweating in a hot and humid day, that T-shirt is going to be ruined. And then you need to replace your T-shirt.

So you could really sort of accomplish both feeling comfortable and giving new life to your T-shirt collection by wearing a tank top on a few of these hot and humid days. You're saying that if you pit sweat in a t-shirt once, it's ruined? Not once. What's going on under your arms? But multiple times. After a while, there's so much washing that can be done to the t-shirt where I feel it's beyond repair. Because of staining? Yes, because of pit stains. And you're talking about white undershirts or regular

fashion t-shirts? I would like it to be fashionable. Not like a white undershirt. No, but you're saying that your toxic pit sweat will ruin a regular old fashion t-shirt after three or four good sweat throughs yes wow what are you putting under your arms permanent marker i i try to uh put deodorant on them but uh you know i think with sweaty individuals you know they they know the pain and, you know, you really ruin some good garments on some hot and humid days. I won't say that this necessarily applies to John because I don't know his specific circumstances, but I will say that I often find that men who have this problem are

helped by using less deodorant than they're currently using. Antiperspirant specifically has ingredients in it that are what generally makes the staining. It's generally not the sweat that's doing the staining. And a lot of men especially put a lot of antiperspirant deodorant under their arms when in fact it has the same effect, even if you use a very, very small amount. their arms when in fact it has the same effect even if you use a very very small amount and for that reason when they sweat the antiperspirant deodorant runs into their shirts and that and the metals in that are actually what does the staining so I will not say that that would apply to John but no we're just saying this for anyone who might be listening we're not trying to focus we're not trying to single out one person who has weird sweat problems.

It could be any. Let's just all put some on. But I think that Jesse's advice is very good for anyone who might be listening. Indeed, antiperspirant is something I use very rarely because it's not that great for you. And I do recall that I used to use it a lot. I did have problems with my white T-shirts in the pit department. So maybe someone who's listening, I'm not saying it's John, that might cause them some, that might be a tip they can use in the future. There are also laundry treatments and products that will help.

But I'm just going to leave it at that. I'm not going to say to whom that might be specifically useful. I'll address it to a general audience. Anyone with terrible armpits could be listening at this point. So, John, you argue that it allows you to have shirts that are not ruined because instead of sweating into the armpit of the shirt, you're just sweating out into the world. And Blair, that's part of your problem, right?

Why don't, do you not like tank tops on John or you don't like tank tops at all? I would say more, it's more about John. Okay. He, yeah, he like, he, so he's a city planner and he loves New York, you know, he's, he's Mr. Like New York history buff. He loves like talking about subway etiquette and like public space for the people and like all this stuff. And yet like he wants to fling flang around wearing a tank top, you know, and nobody, you know, we're in close quarters with other people in New York. And I'm just like imagining, like, you know, going to the restaurant with our daughter and like, there's John in a tank top.

I just don't think it's appropriate for New York City. Wait a minute. Are these things that actually happen? John goes to restaurants in a tank top with your daughter? Or is this something you're afraid might happen? He, I mean, he's definitely been, I'm trying to think of specific situations. He's worn the tank top in the summer out in our neighborhood, which is, we live in Astoria. It's a pretty busy neighborhood. I know he's like, we had a 4th of July picnic where he wore the red tank top a few years ago.

No, he's out and about in the tank tops. Was there anyone else tank topping it at these social events? John, do you have any backup tank toppers who might give your case some weight? John, do you have any backup tank toppers who might give your case some weight? I see gentlemen wearing tank tops everywhere in Astoria. And they're always gentlemen. Why? They're all gentlemen. How do you know a gentleman?

Oh, he's the one wearing the tank top, of course. If you had your choice, how many tank tops would you have? A hundred? your choice how many tank tops would you have a hundred uh i i would say i i only need probably three or four want or need uh uh i guess i don't know i don't know somewhere in between i guess because i i'm not looking to be a tank top guy, so to speak. I don't want to be wearing a tank top every day. I just want to wear a tank top. Dude, you're on a podcast fighting for your life to retain your right to wear a tank top.

If that's not a tank top guy, what is? But I want to be reasonable. I want to set my goals to something obtainable. John, you say you're not a tank top guy, desperately trying to distance yourself from tank top guydom. What's a tank top guy? So here's the thing. I think tank tops have bad raps due to tank top guys.

I think a tank top guy can fit in a number of categories it could be like a bodybuilder or or some might call him a meathead type guy uh it could be a surfer uh as we spoke about it could be uh somebody who's really into electronic music likes to go to festivals and things um or it I hadn't thought about that. Or it could be a frat boy, like a college frat boy. So I think those four categories is a good start to what is a tank top guy. Or one of them joggers. One of them joggers.

Yeah, joggers could be a tank top guy. Maybe like somebody mowing the lawn. I hate those guys. Blair, what is a tank top guy to you? What does a tank top guy mean to you such that you don't want your husband to be one? So I agree with everyone John just said. But the reason I'm so baffled is because John is none of those things. And he really like he cares about his appearance, like not in like in a gross way or anything.

He always looks so nice and put together and like everything he wears is, you know, calculated and he thinks about it. So I'm like totally thrown by this tank top thing. And I feel like it has to be more than just comfort because he really does, you know, dress sort of fashionably. But he's none of those guys you know he doesn't fit into any of those categories so that's why i'm kind of freaked out by the whole tank top thing blair sent in this evidence of john wearing non-tank tops which is what is this meant to prove exactly that he's that he's not a tank top guy he's got good fashion sense. Is that right, Blair? Yes. And also those two photos are from when we were on like some excursions when we were traveling. And I so John and I met when we were in the Peace Corps and we travel a lot together.

That's kind of like something that we do. It's a passion of ours. And I really also wanted to show that like when you travel and also like to a hot country like Costa Rica, like he looks pretty comfortable not in a tank top and he doesn't need to wear them in order to have a good vacation. You know, you don't have to wear tank tops to have a good time, but they do help. The Peace Corps is a pretty tank toppy job, right? I mean, that's got's gotta well we were in ukraine so actually no oh okay well i take it back the peace corps is a pretty dumplingy job isn't it

that's right exactly it's a real chicken kiev kind of job right so all right what we're looking at here and we'll put these pictures up on the website, is John standing in the middle of a, what is this, Epcot Center? What European city are you in? Oh, that's in Iceland. I think that's in Reykjavik. Oh, okay. Yeah. I thought it was the Iceland pavilion at Epcot. His foot up on a public bench, and he's wearing what looks like kind of a corduroy,

a brown corduroy blazer over a sweater over a shirt and brown pants and some boots. And he's looking pretty good. Would you agree, Jesse? Any major fashion faux pas, any red flags you see in his outfit in this picture? No, sir. He looks just fine. All right. That's a big tip. That's a big compliment from jesse thorn

there john take it and now uh we see you here in in a warm climate not wearing a tank top uh visibly sweating uh clearly ruining the pits of the t-shirt you are wearing right as we stand there and maybe you're dreaming i really wish i could put on a tank top right now uh and i you know look you you i i concur with jesse uh you look in pretty good shape there blair what what do you think is going on with john if why do you think he's attracted to these tank tops if everything else about him suggests to you that he's a non-tank top person what do you think he gets what charge does he get out of this if you were if you were to speculate so i've thought about this a lot um because i don't think it's just about comfort and i and i do think he really

he really does legitimately want to wear tank tops so i don't think it's like to make me angry or anything i really think he wants to wear them the only only things I can really think, and this might not be true, John, you can let me know, but he has some really interesting tattoos on his arms that he doesn't often show. Oh! I have no idea.

What's your tattoo? Is it a tattoo of a couple of tank top shirts that you love? Ready and honeymoonmoony? That should be my next one. Are you wearing your double Ts in order to show off your tattoos? I mean tank tops. That's what double Ts is.

No, I don't think so. I would admit, though, that my parents live down the Jersey Shore, and sometimes we go visit them. That's tank top country right there. Yeah, exactly. But I think an advantage to wearing a tank top while walking around New York City is that you don't develop the T-shirt tan. So when you go down to the beach in the Jersey Shore, you don't have a t-shirt tan. You kind of got a leg up on the tan, and now you have some tan that comes up to your shoulders,

and it doesn't look so bad. You still got strap lines, though. You do. I consider that less kind of obvious to a tan line than when it stops right above your elbow. Is this an attempt to get back in touch with your Jersey Shore roots? Maybe. Are you concerned that your husband is becoming or could become the ugly American? Maybe, yeah.

I mean, a little bit. I think he's way more savvy to actually do that. But yeah, maybe a little bit. and you're rocking this tank top, that's a heavy, with this tank top that has a surfer on the front, and you're a white dude who clearly doesn't live in Barbados, you're sending a lot of signifiers, heavy-duty signifiers,

that you are a tank top-wearing tourist who's just there to let it all hang out. Does that concern you? I don't think so. I mean, I don't think so. I mean, I don't think of myself as like fitting into a certain mold of someone who would wear a tank top that we expressed. I think that, you know, I could kind of break the trend and just be a normal guy who likes to be comfortable with a sleeveless shirt. You're going to be the one who brings the tank top back you're gonna reclaim it from yeah tank top guys and and and make it cool to be a city planner wearing a tank top yeah i don't want to want to want to break the mold as far as there's a certain type of guy that wears a tank top.

And no, I think, you know, normal guys can wear tank tops, especially those that want to be comfortable and feel the breeze underneath their arms. I think I've heard everything that I need to hear. I am going to go into my chamber's tanning salon and lie down in my tanning bed with my tank top on and consider my decision. I'll be back in a moment with my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. John, why had you not thrown this red tank thing away already? How did you keep this since high school? Yeah, I don't know. I think it's just been laziness. I'm surprised Blair hasn't made me throw it out a lot sooner. And this other one, the black one with the surfer on it?

There was probably other shirts at that same store, right? What led you to pick this one? I thought it was the silliest shirt. And I just wanted a city garment of memorabilia to remember our trip by. Maybe to make Blair mad a little bit. Blair, how do you feel about the fact that your husband was already on your honeymoon buying clothes specifically to make you mad? Honestly, I don't know. It's not that surprising.

How do you feel about your chances, Blair? I don't know. I felt more confident before this all started, but John made a better case than I expected. John, how do you feel? I feel okay. I feel you brought a case about men's deodorant that maybe won't weigh in my favor, but it's valid. But I think my goal is obtainable. I'm just looking for one new tank top to replace the old tank top. So I'm feeling pretty good.

Well, we'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about all of this when we come back in just a second. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join, and you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by the folks over there at Babbel. Did you know that learning, the experience of learning, causes a sound to happen? Let's hear the sound. Yep, that's the sound of you learning a new language with Babbel.

We're talking about quick 10-minute lessons crafted by over 200 language experts that can help you start speaking a new language in as little as one, two, three weeks. Let's hear that sound. Babbel's tips and tools are approachable, accessible, rooted in real life situations and delivered with conversation-based teaching. So you're ready to practice what you've learned in the real world and you get to hear the sound. It's not just like a game that pretends to teach you a language. It's also not a rigid, weird, hyper-academic chore. It is an actually productive app that actually teaches you while you are actually having a nice time. And you get to hear this sound.

Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash Hodgman. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash Hodgman spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash Hodgman. Rules and restrictions apply. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with Made In pots and pans?

Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs, they're Made In, Made In. The Rohan duck. Made in, made in. Riders of Rohan. Duck. What about the Heritage Pork Shop? You got it.

Made in, made in. Made in has been supplying top chefs and restaurants with high-end cookware for years. They make the stuff that chefs need. Their carbon steel cookware is the best of cast iron, the best of stainless clad. It gets super hot. It's rugged enough for grills or an open flame. One of the most useful pans you can own. And like we said, good enough for real professional chefs, the best professional chefs.

Oh, so I have to go all the way down to the restaurant district in restaurant town? Just buy it online. This is professional grade cookware that is available online directly to you, the consumer, at a very reasonable price. Yeah. If you want to take your cooking to the next level, remember what so many great dishes on menus all around the world have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 25% this memorial day from the 18th until the 27th visit made in cookware.com that's m-a-d-e-i-n cookware.com please rise as judge john hodgman re-enters the courtroom now you guys can't see it but I've taken my whole shirt off

because I'm a little hot and this is the most comfortable I feel. And I can't rub my pits on you right now, but I'm going to rub my wisdom pits on you. What's interesting about this is that we all instinctively share, if not a distaste for tank tops, an appreciation that most people do have distess T-shirt that that James Caan would wear in The Godfather and is associated with a lot of anti working class Italian stereotypes. the athletic shirt being worn by a grownup who is not an athlete, um, that also feeds into certain, you know,

Jersey shore type, uh, ethnic and class stereotypes that, uh, maybe yuppies in Astoria and podcasters in Brooklyn and, uh, and, and,

uh, the Eastern Los Angeles, the cool part of Los Angeles, um, uh, don't, don't, uh,

aren't entirely comfortable with. And it's part of the reason why I think hipsters wear tank tops, because they're precisely the kinds of shirts that young people who are not athletes and are certainly not from working class backgrounds necessarily, and stereotypically themselves, have trust funds and enough time in their lives to figure out how to dress as ironically as possible to start putting on shirts that feature their decidedly unathletic arms and spindly, scrawny shoulders. I think that that's part of the dialogue that's going on when someone puts on a tank top. But in fact, the tank top is your one outlet to irony in your wardrobe.

The red tank top, which is just an old piece of clothing you were too lazy to throw away. It's now garbage. Good. Let's put it away and never discuss it again. But you yourself admit that you got the surfer tank top that says locals only on it and mystic surfing because it was the silliest one and the one that was most likely to make your brand new wife mad. That is that is ironic provocation in and of itself. And I think that you're lying to yourself and certainly to this court.

If you are saying that you don't get some kind of charge of wearing a shirt that you know, at the very least, makes your wife angry. That's fun to some degree. We all know that a shirt without sleeves offers a tremendous amount more comfort and breathability than a shirt with sleeves on a hot day. That is good. That's why tank tops and sleeveless shirts exist. And there is an obvious practical advantage that doesn't even need to be argued. But the only reason that this is an argument is that the tank top is freighted with all of this cultural gravity that makes it a little bit tainted.

And I've been trying to figure out how I feel about it and what I could rule, whether I could rule on this by going on the merits of the case or whether I would be ruling on this simply from my own reflective distaste for tank tops because in my life as an only child asthmatic nerd grew up in northeastern Massachusetts no one who wore a tank top was my friend they were often my enemies and so it's made a very a very hard case for me to judge.

The principle that I've decided that is most important here to me and to this court is not that the tank top is somehow intrinsically unseemly. It's a functional piece of clothing. Specifically, initially an athletic piece of clothing in terms of tank top as outerwear, which is what we're discussing, not sleeveless t-shirt. And athletic pieces of clothing worn in everyday interactions have become more and more and more common. And obviously athletic fashion will be worn by someone who couldn't run or jump to save his or her life. And indeed, if they were to run or jump, it might risk his or her life due to physical ailments. And it does, because of my own nerd trauma, somewhat disturb me to see a grown man or woman wearing athletic uniforms and jerseys and that sort of thing out there in the world.

Because it's just not my style. But I appreciate that that's an evolution of style that is okay in that world. that is okay in that world. But the tank top specifically, even and perhaps especially when it is not athletic wear, it derives from athletic wear. It's hard to get less dressed up than wearing something without sleeves. And when you wear something that is essentially not merely athletic signaling of my favorite team, but it's actually a functional garment that is designed to promote sweat release. It feels on a gut level, just a little gross to see people walking around. Now, I saw a guy in a band the other day when I was over in Portland, Oregon doing the Live Wire show, a great band called David Wax Museum. And the bass player was wearing a Hunter fluorescent orange-colored pair of overalls and nothing else.

It was like tank top extreme. It was just bare chest under these bright orange overalls. But that was okay because, A, he was in a band, and B, he was misusing overalls. You're using tank tops in exactly the way that they're supposed to be used, as a functional piece of sweat relief. And as long as you're using them in that way, it's hard for me to deny you the right to use them. But the moment that you put them into context that is inappropriate for athletic and sweat release use, then the tank top starts speaking. It starts telling a story to a lot of people,

telling a story to a lot of people, including your wife, that we don't love. Tank tops in their elements are fine. I'm talking about going to the public pool. I'm talking about hanging around on the beach. I'm talking about mowing your lawn on a hot summer afternoon with a bottle of beer near you. I'm talking about, well, those things, and that's it. Walking down the street on a hot summer day in New York City in order to go buy a fan, I like that for a tank top. Going to Barbados, yeah, that's the beach, isn't it? But I think white dudes in tank tops at the beach in predominantly black countries, they are sending a message at that point saying, I'm that kind of tourist.

And I think that you need to be considerate of the stories that you are telling with your tank top because for all the reasons I just discussed, it is, it's a piece of clothing that tells a story. With that in mind, though, I can't allow this courtroom to be swayed by class prejudice or even anti-athletic prejudice. And I don't think that it is inappropriate,

though it wouldn't be my choice. I don't think that it would be inappropriate for a man to have in his wardrobe one or two sleeveless shirts to use for exercise, manual chores, beachwear, and maybe sleeping on a very hot night. But outside of those usages, I not only strongly encourage, I prohibit usage. I not only strongly encourage, I prohibit usage. And so with that strong caveat, I actually find in favor of John, he may keep two tank tops in his wardrobe, one to replace old ready, may it rest in peace.

And eventually one, I hope to replace the other surfer tank top because clothing is not souvenirs. Eventually you outgrow it both physically and emotionally. And that one will have to be retired and you may get another at that time. But you may only use them in the context that I described and other contexts, but I think you know in your heart which contexts are tank top appropriate and which contexts are not tank top appropriate. For example, many would disagree.

I would urge you not to wear one to a public picnic or barbecue. I'm sure there will be dudes out there who are doing it. Look at them. Decide if you want to be them. And I hope that you two can go tank top shopping together and maybe even find something that isn't offensive to Blair. even find something that isn't offensive to Blair. I'm not sure that that will ever happen, but it's a good time now that you're in your mid-30s to reevaluate your wardrobe anyway.

It's pretty common. And maybe you'll go out there and find the Tasteful Tank Top. Imagine that, the quest for the Tasteful Tank Top. It seems impossible, but if anyone can do it, I think it's John. So I find in favor of the respondent, this is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules, that is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Blair, you've been pretty soundly defeated, but with some significant caveats. How are you feeling? I'm a little worried that John's going to try to take liberties with the judge's ruling, but I don't know. I think I'll remind him of what was said in court.

John, how do you feel? Do you know what? I'll just jump in really quickly, even before John responds, and I'll offer you this, Blair. You may take a picture of any proposed new tank tops and send them to this court. And I have veto power over the style and printing of the tank top. Okay, I guess that makes me feel better. John, how are you feeling? I'm feeling really good.

This is the result i wanted um i hope uh blair takes some uh initiative in in opining on the type of tank top to wear um you know the the extra leg that the tank tops have to be approved by the show may you know add a few more regulatory requirements to it but overall i can't complain um i'm really excited really excited about adding at least one tank top to my wardrobe, being able to hold on to the black tank top until it falls apart. It's probably going to go away soon and then replacing that with a new one. Would you say that the tank top industry is being choked by unnecessary regulations? Yes. Yes, I would. regulations? Yes. Yes, I would. I think there's an unfair stigma around those that wear tank tops, and I think they could do a lot better if we take these stigmas sort of away and

allow just men who do normal things on the weekends to wear tank tops. Jesse, do you have anything else you would like to say to these nice people? I'd like to thank them for coming on the Judge John Hodgman podcast and being delightful and lovely. Judge Hodgman, we're headed, I believe it's next week, to the San Francisco Sketch Fest in San Francisco, California, my hometown. Right there in the first weekend of the brand new year of 2016 San Francisco Sketch Fest, we're doing our live Judge John Hodgman show. Probably it's sold out at this point. We're not sure. But if you have an idea for a case that we could hear on stage and you're in the Bay Area, I hope you'll still let us know by going to MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho. We might pick you

to be on stage to defend your case or attack your case. And then you get to see the show from the inside out. But there are other things we're doing too. I believe I, is it announced, Jesse, that I am joining you on Jordan, Jesse Go on Saturday? That is announced. Our guest on Jordan, Jesse Go on Saturday,

the great John Hodgman. That's going to be fun. I'm looking forward to that. Come see us, three of us together on Jordan, Jesse go on Saturday at the Eureka theater. Jordan, Jesse go, of course, is the place where judge John Hodgman as a concept was birthed. Yeah. I mean, look, listen, listen, America and particularly the Bay area.

If you come to Jordan, Jesse go at the San Francisco Sketch Fest, will you get laughs? Sure. Will you get your hero, John Hodgman? Yes, of course. But more than that, you will get references that only people

from the Bay Area would understand. Will I bring up former KTVU anchor, Elaine Corral? Almost certainly. Will there be talk of the doggy diner heads?

Yes. I guarantee it. Will former mayor Willie L. Browngy diner heads? Yes. I guarantee it. Will former mayor Willie L. Brown Jr. come up? Yeah, you bet. And his outfits. All of that is promised to you at Jordan Jesse Go. The only show that promises full pandering at San Francisco Sketch Fest. And I'm doing a whole bunch of other shows at Sketch Fest as well.

You can check it all out at the Sketch Fest website website, which is sfsketchfest.com. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-R. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky Let me give it a try

Okay If you need a laugh and you're on the go Call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D Ah, it'll never fit No, it will, let me try If you need a laugh and you're on the go Try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O Ah, we are so close

Stop podcasting yourself a podcast from maximum fun dot org if you need a laugh and you're on the go yeah jesse knew it by heart i knew it by head which means i forgot it

check it check out it's a really wonderful festival there's lots to see and do and would love to see and do. Well, we'd love to see and do a lot of JJ Ho listeners there. That was misphrased, but you know what I mean. This week's episode was named by Andrew McNair. Thank you, Andrew. If you want to name a future episode of Judge John Hodgman, or if you just want to get updates and see what's going on, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook and follow John and I on Twitter. He is at Hodgman. I am at Jesse Thorne. And guess what? Maximum Fun is now

on Instagram. So search for us there. And you can also join the discussion on Reddit at MaximumFun.reddit.com and on Facebook in the Maximum Fun Facebook group, which is a lively and lovely place. All of those places, great places to connect with fellow MaxFun listeners and your favorite podcasters. That's us. Our show is produced by Julia Smith, edited by Mark McConville. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. MaximumFun.org. Comedy and culture. Artist owned. Listener supported.