Judge John Hodgman - The Meeple's Court Live in Madison

Episode Date: April 30, 2025

Beth says that her friend, Aaron, "broke" their favorite board game by working too hard to "optimize gameplay." The way Aaron plays is just NO FUN, says Beth! But Aaron says that identifying systems IS fun! Who's right? Who's wrong? Plus! Swift Justice cases about plant propagation containers and the pronunciation of the word, "hammock."We are on TikTok and YouTube! Follow us on both @judgejohnhodgmanpod! Follow us on Instagram @judgejohnhodgman!Thanks to reddit user u/YouKnow4Kids for naming this week’s case! To suggest a title for a future episode, keep an eye on the Maximum Fun subreddit at reddit.com/r/maximumfun! Judge John Hodgman is member-supported! Join at $5 a month at maximumfun.org/join!

It's the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne with me, Judge John Hodgman. This week's episode recorded live in Madison, Wisconsin. We had a wonderful time returning to Madison, Wisconsin. You don't hear it in this episode because it's visual, but the Majestic Theater is the only theater I've ever played in that literally turns a corner in the audience.

It's an amazing space full of amazing people. And we had some amazing cases. We talked about propagating plants, how to pronounce the word hammock. Hmm. And board game rules. I also got a really sweet vintage Chris Mullen t-shirt at the vintage t-shirt store around the corner. Let's go to the stage at the Majestic Theater. t-shirt store around the corner. Let's go to the stage at the Majestic Theatre.

People of Madison, you asked us for live justice and we are here to deliver it. The court of Judge John Hodgman is now in session. Let's begin our first case. Please welcome to the stage, Darcy and Parker. Darcy and Parker have been dating for two years, and Darcy will be moving into Parker's house this spring. Parker is excited to share his home with Darcy, with one exception, Darcy's collection of dozens of tiny glass jars. Darcy, with one exception, Darcy's collection of dozens of tiny glass jars.

Darcy says, he needs those jars. Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Darcy Parker, glad to have you here. Love your glasses frames. So, hold on. Let's also address their matching sleeve rolls. I specifically brought it up. We got ready at separate houses.

Okay. Because you do not currently cohabitate. So who seeks justice in this courtroom? I do. And you would like to keep my jars. And you have the jars. So you would be Darcy. Okay, so Parker, what's your problem with the jars? I fear that as the jar collection grows, it's going to take up more and more shelf space that is limited. I don't have a huge house. Sure.

And I'm concerned that, and a lot of it is recycled or reused food jars. Right, okay. So some of it is... Presumably they've been washed since the food came out of that. They've been washed, but it is instead of into the recycling bin and then out to the street, they are onto the shelf. They've been washed, but it is instead of into the recycling bin and then out to the street They are onto the shelf now look Darcy I don't want to make your case for you, but you realize that these jars they don't necessarily have to be on shelves, right?

They could be stacked up around your bed half full of rainwater and urine That would make you know midnight runs How many jars are there currently, Darcy, would you say? Oh, um... Over 60. Over 60 jars. Parker, is that an accurate assessment, would you say? That's accurate.

Okay, very good. Now, Darcy, I don't know if you're familiar with the court of Judge John Hodgman, we have a rule about the difference between a collection and a hoard. Very familiar with this rule. And what is the rule? The nuance between a hoard and a collection is how it's displayed. Right. If you have a display case, it's a collection. I have an art case. If it's in a pile that has crushed a house pet, for example,

that would be a hoard. You have a display situation? I do argue that it is displayed. Okay, well, let's take a look. We have some evidence and we're going to share these pictures obviously on the show page at MaximumFun.org as well as on the Judge John Hodgman Instagram account, etc. Let's take a look at the first exhibit. Producer Jennifer Marmer is making it happen. There we are. There we go.

Round of applause for Producer Jennifer Marmer, by the way. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. Would you mind pouring this into about 60 jars for me? Alright, so this is your display. These are the currently empty jars. Oh, clearly I can see that. Most of the time the jars are in use for propagating plants.

For propagating plants. And you're not just talking about plant propaganda. You're not handing out pamphlets. No. What does propagating plants mean for those who don't know? This is like a little shop of horror situation Yes Propagating plants means I'm taking cuttings of my existing plants and

Creating new plants out of them to help them root in water Okay, I can either gift them to friends or make new plants or stuff them back into my existing plants to make them fuller and bushier Got it. Well, everyone loves a full bushy plant. And so you fill these jars up with water. But these are jars in waiting. These are not the display jars. Let's take a look. Let's take a look at the next slide, please. OK.

Wait a minute. All right, there we go. Yeah, OK. So here we have a number of test tubes in which plants are propagating. Is there anything you want to say about this? What's going on here? This looks fairly tasteful, I have to say, Parker.

Well, oh, I'm sorry. I say it looks tasteful, but Jesse Thorne needs to weigh in. I think we see the test tubes. I agree with you. What kind of plant is that in our rack of test tubes there? We have some pothos there. We have a monstera there. We have some hoyas and skindapsis, quite a variety there.

There's also some thrifted jars there that have some beach glass from Lake Michigan. Okay, so these are all various plants that appear spontaneously in your house if you're between the ages of 20 and 45 and you've ever looked at Instagram. Yes. Then as we move along the photograph,

we're finished with the rack of test tubes. What other vessels do we see here? We have some little jars that I thrifted from an antique store that is, one of those is a vintage motor fluid additive bottle. Okay. There are some little jars that had corks in them and I found an interesting shape that I saw at Target. You ever get some old jars of old English brand processed cheese? Those are good for things.

No, it's mostly, if it's food jars, it's mostly like pickles and olives and stuff. Alright, let's take a look at the next one, exhibit B. Okay well feed me Seymour now. This feels less like a display and more like a threat. How do you feel about that when you see it Parker? That actually I do feel like having been walked through all of the plants there. You've been initiated into it. I've been initiated into it. That particular shelf does not offend me. The concern is that... It does not offend you? Every shelf in the home. Because the plants won't be limited in propagation by the number of jars, which is the current limit right now. Judge Hodgman, have you ever looked at the subreddit male living spaces? No.

It's an incredible subreddit. There are men, apparently, per male living spaces, men live in two types of domicile. One is this, which is to say, 20,000 plants sitting on a shelf. And the other is basically American Psycho. Like those are the two, American Psycho slash like low rent Airbnb.

Everything's very spare. There's just almost nothing present. Everything is either black, white, or gray. You don't have a lot of furniture because you need a lot of empty floor space to put your plastic down. Exactly. Sometimes those people have like color change LED under lighting on things.

Just like miscellaneous things like their pets and stuff. Well the good news Parker is that according to Jesse's Reddit research, this is not the evidence that Darcy, your beloved, is a psycho killer. Right, exactly. In fact, he's a highly oxygenated person. Oh, very much so. Yeah. So you're cool with this.

With the one shelf, yeah. This is one shelf. The one shelf. Right. And do you live in a larger space than Darcy currently occupies? Yes, but not by much. Do you think that Darcy is simply moving in in order to expand the tendrils of his territory, like an invasive ivy or something? I don't think that's his main concern. Okay. Let's look at the last exhibit, if I don't think the tendrils of his territory like an invasive ivy or something. I don't think that's his main concern

Okay, let's look at the last exhibit if I don't mind. This is a close-up. Okay I'm not sure what we're supposed to be seeing here, but I see a little dog wearing a top hat And I wanted to know about that Is he smoking a cigarette? He has a tiny witches broom in his mouth. He has a Halloween decoration Okay, is he a Halloween decoration or what you might call a cigarette? He has a tiny witch's broom in his mouth. He has a Halloween decoration. Okay. Is he a Halloween decoration or what you might call a familiar? Yes. Does he have a name? No, actually. He's only been there for like a week or two. He hasn't earned a name yet. Whoa. Let me send a message to that little dog. Someday you'll earn a name, little guy.

But what we have here is demonstration of jars in use. Demonstration of jars in use. I never had any doubt that you weren't using these jars. So Parker, how long have you lived in your current, is it a home, an apartment, a condiment? It is a home. It's a home, a freestanding home? Wonderful. And what have you been doing to prepare for Darcy to move in? Well, I bought it in the spring, so it's been pretty laid back as far as that goes.

You know, it's all been first time for me. So you're just getting, this is not a place you've lived in for a long time. No, I have not established myself yet. Oh wow, you haven't even, yeah, you haven't even put down your own roots as it were. Exactly, my own jars. Don't laugh at that, it's terrible. It's terrible, I was just trying to think of a thing to say. That's all I ever do, you know, is I just try to think of things to say.

John, that's what podcasting is, just saying stuff. That's true. So if you keep the jars, Darcy, what's your plan for this new place you're moving into? Well, we had talked about having plants scattered evenly throughout the home, and we had talked about the idea of having a kind of vine chandelier art project with some kind of LED string lights, which means that I need a lot of vining plants. Sure. And it's cheaper to make my own. Right, to propagate, if you will. That's right. And so I'm really busy getting a bunch of vining plant propagations going. Right, because if you go around buying vining plants from

garden supply stores here and there and you're buying too many, you get flagged at the FBI as a weirdo. It's like buying too much Sudafan. Yeah, exactly. If you're making them in your home lab, they'll never know. Or alternately it's just not doable on a self-employed income. That could be true as well, I suppose. So I'm not sure. We can go back to our, we can end that exhibit now, go back to our art, please. Thank you very much.

Parker, is your primary concern the jars or the plants? The primary concern is the jars. Okay. Because I would like the jars to be more thoughtfully chosen, if they're going to be on display per the show requirements. I don't know how you could accuse Darcy of being thoughtless. It's not like he's just buying things at the grocery store and then sticking plants in there.

He's going to thrift shops to get old motor oil books. Well, in addition to buying... In addition to all of the ones... He uses the pretty ones first, but his stash of, we'll say, ugly jars... is, per the first piece of evidence, impressively large. Let the record show that Darcy is registering a shocked Pikachu face... at the term ugly jars.

Darcy, would you acknowledge that some of your jars are ugly? Pikachu face at the term ugly jars. Darcy, would you acknowledge that some of your jars are ugly? They are less interesting than some others. I mean, Darcy, I saw like some full on Tupperwares there in that last picture. The deli cups. Yeah. Yeah, what's the jar, what's the style of jar that you hate

the most, Parker? Um, I would say like if you get like a Vlasic pickle spears, because it's it's really big and wide, and the mouth is really wide, and I don't, it's too squat for me. You want something that's a little, a little, a little slender little delicate. Maybe it's got some shape to it. The pickle jars are just... It's a pickle jar. You can't pretend it's anything else. Parker, you would like me to order Darcy to leave a plant behind

if there isn't an interesting enough jar to put them in. Is that correct? That's correct. And specifically also to one in, one out with the thrifted jars before accumulating any additional. So a total of 60 jars. Can you do it with 60 jars, yes or no? Yeah. Do you feel that you could commit to sophisticated non-pickle jars going forward? If I can find them.

I sense that you have some hesitation. So maybe this would be a good time before moving in to tell Parker when Parker says, I want you to leave some cuttings behind, unless you have a jar I approve of, how does that make you feel as a future cohabitant? I worry that I'll- Don't tell them, tell Parker. When I hear you say that- I love where this is going.

You're gonna be great cohabitants. When I hear you say that you want me to leave cuttings behind because the jars aren't aesthetic enough it makes me worry that I'm losing opportunities for beautiful plants and I worry that I don't have the opportunity to find the jars that meet your aesthetic. Why wouldn't you have that opportunity? By the way, nice self-expression. Because sometimes thrifting gets pricey. Right.

And I don't get to thrift stores often enough because I go at them like a feral animal. Self-restraint means not going thrifting. Okay, I understand. All right, here's my verdict. I think that you're doing a wonderful job trying to meld your lives together and having this conversation before you do so and identifying these points of friction that are going to come up. I especially appreciate your having this conversation on stage in front of strangers. It shows a lot of faith that you have in the relationship and in going forward. And it's a real

point of vulnerability to open your home to someone new and to join that home. And there is often a feel, a fear of a power imbalance. Like it's your, technically, I mean you're the owner of the home, and you are trying to assert the fact that you also live there and so forth. So I would say, honestly, that I have to say that I love what you're doing. Propagation of plants is a net positive in this world. Don't love lasik pickles, I think they're really basic.

I'm a Grillo's guy myself, Grillo's. Sponsored Judge John Hodgman. Don't let our friend Bill Oakley hear you endorsing any pickle other than Grillo's. Yeah, but of course Grillo's doesn't put anything in jars unfortunately. Get out of plastic Grillo's. Until then you can't sponsor on Judge John Hodgman. I told them. Yeah, take that Grillo's. I think that if your partner's only worry is that you're gonna put beautiful plants in ugly jars, then that's kind of a net win for you.

But I think the onus then is on you, Parker, as the homeowner, to source some beautiful jars that you feel okay with. Because as you know, Darcy can't go thrifting or else he gets feral. So you've gotta. You've seen the mouth foam. I have.

You've got to meet him halfway, get some beautiful jars and hold it at 60, that's my order. All right, thank you. Thank you, Darcy and Parker. ["The Last Supper"] Please welcome to the stage, Sarah and Matt. Swift justice continues with Sarah and Matt.

Sarah and Matt are married. When they first got together, Sarah made fun of the way Matt pronounced a certain word. From then on, Matt has never said the word again. Instead, he will alternately say, the thing between the trees. Instead, he will alternately say, the thing between the trees. Sarah wants Judge Hodgman to order Matt to stop saying that mysterious phrase.

Judge Hodgman? Sarah, the thing between the trees. Two trees, usually. Oh, the thing between two trees? Yes. Well, aside from that being the title of my favorite indie crime film, what does that mean?

He won't say hammock. He won't say hammock. The thing between two trees is a hammock. And how did Matt say it when he first and last said that word? The last time I heard him say it, it was hammock. Hammock. And how long ago did that happen? That was probably 12 years ago.

12 years ago. And Matt has not said the word hammock since. It doesn't come up all the time. Well, no. But when it does, it does sound mysterious. It's not a common phrase like propagating plant jar. And Sarah, when he said hammock, what did you had do? I was curious.

I was wondering, where does this come from? We're both from the Midwest, but not the exact same parts. And I thought, that sounds weird. Sounds really weird. Matt, where in the Midwest are you from? I'm from, I grew up in Minnesota and Wisconsin. Right. Mostly.

And would you just say the word Haneuk right now, please? No. Ah. What happened? Sorry, hold on. What's the word that you want to say, Matt? The one that rhymes with Haddock. Okay.

Do you mean Haddock? Nope. This is an interesting game. Captain Haddock is drunk again. Sarah said that you said Hamok. Maybe you did, maybe you didn't. Did you? I did. Is that how you grew up saying the word and where you came from? Yes. Okay, so that is a regional... Alright, I understand. I believe so. Sure. Are there other people in your family who say the same thing?

There are. A lot of my friends say it that way. Some of my family do as well. Hamok. Right, but you won't say it? Nope. Some of my family do as well. Hemak. Right. But you won't say it. Nope. Not anymore. What is... This is not the national concert, by the way. I'm a little surprised. Yeah. Oh, did you think you were going to see the national? Turns out not.

Yeah, no. Matt, this isn't even the war on drugs. I can't imagine you're disappointed. Matt, what is quote unquote the streak? It is 12 years, I believe. So you refer to the 12 years that you have not said the word. Correct. That signifies the thing between two trees.

Correct. For 12 years as the streak and you don't want to break the streak Nope Is that because you're afraid you'll lose your Xbox achievement? Hahaha It is long standing It started out as a...

When I first met Sarah, we met on a picnic bench in Korea teaching English over there I'm sorry, do you mean a pic-a-nic bench? No. That's what my dad says. A pic-knock bench? A pic-knock? So, but she was very witty and she always had a lot of facts.

And anyone that would say anything, she could add something to what they were saying, which was very impressive. And I really respect that about her, still do. I don't mean to put you on the spot, but do you have an example? I could say virtually any country, and she would be like, oh yeah, the capital is known for the high amount of Buddhist followers there. And I'd have no idea. Silly things.

What about, okay, what's a country? I don't know. Argentina. I went to public school, dude. The capital is Buenos Aires? Okay, what's a country? I don't know. Argentina. I went to public school, dude. The capital is Buenos Aires? That is true. What can you say about the capital of Buenos Aires?

I don't know, go get some meat there, I guess. They are very coniferous there in Buenos Aires. The main drag is the Avenida Cinco de Mayo. Did you know that? I've not been, no, I didn't know that. Do you know what they call the White House there? Casa Rosada, the pink house. Interesting.

That's all right, I went there. I loaded the deck again, whatever. Anyway. He went to Yale, so he went to Argentina. I went to UC Santa Cruz, so I went to a place called Felton, California. Where they had a Sears portrait studio. For your study abroad.

Yeah. Felton or Ben Lomond, those were the choices. Sarah, when Matt says the thing between two trees, whenever it comes up naturally and he says, the thing between two trees, like at a family picnic or whatever it might be, how does it make you feel? Well, to me, it like harkens back to the time that I made fun of him for saying hemlock.

How did you make fun of him? Just because I was so confused as to how he... No, I understand why you did. Yeah. You're intolerant and judgmental. Yeah. I mean, some curiosity, but poking fun at the way we speak. But did you give him a full Nelson, ha-ha,

or what did you have in you? No, no. Just like... Hemlock? What do you even... Just curiosity, like, who else says that? When I finally moved to Wisconsin, I found a select few who do. May I ask the people of Wisconsin who are here in the hall tonight, have you heard this before? Clap sincerely if you have.

Ha-mop. Ha-mop. Ha-mop. Let the record show that Matt is leaving the stage, which would be pretty amazing. Thank you. He's come back, but honestly, I would have really respected if you just walked out the back door. It would have been a great mic drop, but Jennifer told us not to touch the mics. Yeah, please don't touch the mics, absolutely not.

They belong to the Majestic Theater here in Madison, Wisconsin. Fair. That's it, but you are free to leave at any time. The stage door is right over there, you could go get a drink and be done with this. Maybe you can go catch some of the national. But I do want to ask. Matt is turning this into one of those YouTube videos

where people say, am I being detained? Yeah. That's it. But since you very kindly sat back down, I do want to ask Matt, and this is a real question. Is the streak just vengeance? Are you trying to annoy Sarah for making you feel bad 12 years ago? No. Is that the way you pronounce the word yes? No. Okay. Then why won't you just say what you want to say? What is the point of the streak at this point?

So it did start out, admittedly, coming from a place of hurt, because it did hurt that I got judged for the way I said something, and I never thought that that was a wrong way to say it. Yeah. And by the way, Matt, I'll go further. That was a bad thing you did. Yeah. So when he continues to do it, like, and he won't say it now, even though I've apologized since then. And we've spent 12, 13 years together.

Well, the number keeps changing. Were you married? We are married. Were you married when he said the word? No. Okay. And I stayed. So I did forgive her. Just so I understand the full scenario of how monstrous Sarah was at the moment.

What was the situation? Were you with other people? Was it just the two of you? What was going on? When you humiliated your future husband. Paint a word picture for me. We were on the Today Show talking to Hoda. I think that it was more of over time,

like once I heard him say it, I would ask other people that we were with, how do you say this? Similar to other like regionalisms. Oh, so it wasn't just one time. It would be like. And then yeah, once we moved back here, I asked other people. Having brunch with friends

and saying, hey, by the way, everybody, how do you say this word? That's because of this weird way. Yeah, okay, I got you. So you made fun of him several times. Probably. Okay, gotcha. And Matt, you acknowledged that that was hurtful to you. I do. And Sarah apologized. And yet the streak continues.

So why is it important to you now? It, I think now it's just kind of become something where I've gone so long without saying it that I don't feel like I need to anymore and now kind of monk-like resolve, I'm gonna see how long I can take it. So when I tell our kids about this thing, I can explain it to them and they know what I'm talking about. So I don't really need to use the word.

How old are your kids? Do they speak? Sam is six and Joanna is three. And do they ever say the word? They see them sometimes. I love them. But they're not allowed to acknowledge that they exist? They have to ask their mother what it is.

I wouldn't like, we have one in the basement, but I wouldn't put it out because I don't want to... You have a thing between two trees in the basement? Well, we have it tucked away. What other creepy houses am I going to be introduced to on this show? You don't have it set up in the basement. I wouldn't set it up because I don't want to continue to hear this phrase over and over again as I set it up.

Matt, can you please set up the hammock? Oh sure, I will go set that thing up between two trees. I'm sorry, what set up the what? The hammock. The thing between two trees. Yes. Oh I see I misunderstood. So confusing. Matt how will you feel if I order you in this court of fake law to say the word however you want to say to break the streak right here on stage? I would have I would have a hard time doing that. You would have a hard time doing that. I wouldn't. Easy does it, easy does it. I'm just establishing mistakes. It's storytelling.

You know, at heart, I consider myself a storyteller. Why aren't we all just storytellers, just sharing stories around the campfire, just a bunch of cavemen, shavings. The oldest definitions of humanity. You light a campfire, you hang two things between two trees. One thing, excuse me. And then you say you're a storyteller to cover up the fact that actually you're a guy who

works in advertising. Sarah, why should I order him to break the street? So we don't have to continue having this conversation forever because it's not just between us like I know you won't say it. Do you feel that you need to be absolved? Well I have apologized sincerely multiple times. I know but it doesn't feel like he's really accepted it. Yeah there's that. I mean have you? I have. You have accepted it. Yes. So you're trying to tell me that you're just calling this thing the thing between two trees just because you want to hit some weird internal Guinness Book of World Records. It's not just to

to twist the knife a little bit every time it comes up whenever you're camping or going into the basement. I feel like- Or camping in the basement by the way. Fun. I feel like if you'd ask most people in the audience everyone might have something that they have like a bit of a streak going that they don't tell anyone else about, or maybe they do. So that's my thing. It's purely personal. It is.

Alright. Sara, do you believe him? I think so, but then he knows what it looks like when we go to other places and there's a hammock. And then... You just keep saying that word, I don't know what you mean. And then he will not... It's because she he's gonna miss pronouncing it yeah just kidding so so I do tell this story about how I was a jerk I have told that story multiple

times yeah and I'd like to not keep telling that story over and over again all right here's my verdict since it's Swift Justice and we're running out of time. And I don't want to dip below the podium because my knee hurts. You, first of all, have to assure, if it's true, you have to assure Sarah that you forgive her, that you absolve her, and you don't hold this against her. And you have to do it now on stage so go ahead to the tune of now okay yeah using the microphone and your words yeah okay so I truly have not said the word in 12 years even if I'm by

myself and I'm he didn't ask you to brag. No, no, no. No, no, no. I'll allow bragging if he truly has not said it, even to himself. This is part of my apology and explaining. So even if I'm by myself looking at a camping magazine, and I see one, I will not say this. And the apology part.

Camping magazine. Sorry, and the apology part. Camping magazine. Sorry, and the apology part. Sorry. I understand. Probably people in Wisconsin do read camping magazines. Yeah. You can ask longtime friends, you can ask new friends, and they will tell you, I just don't use the word.

But I recognize that your podcast is one of my wife's favorite things to listen to. She has a lot of value in it. She appreciates it. And you also like it. I've heard it in the car sometimes. That's true. And I want to commend you for your honesty. Thank you, yes.

But I feel like here's the only appropriate place to say that I have not said the word because I'm upset with you. It just became something of a streak for me. So I am sorry and I will try in the future to more often use the word hammock. Oh! Oh! Oh!

Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh!

Oh! Oh! Matt, I wasn't gonna ask you to break the streak. It hurt. I was gonna tell you to keep the streak going. I know, I know. I was gonna bring this gavel down on 20 years. I know.

Now you have to start all over again. That's beautiful what you did, but don't say the word again for 20 years, unless, Sarah, you sleep in a hammock in your basement. Thank you, Sarah and Matt. Wow. Wow.

Judge Hodgman, we're taking a quick break. I want to mention a couple of awesome people that are on my public radio interview program, Bullseye with Jesse Thorne. This week, I interviewed Tony Gilroy, who is the showrunner of the amazing television program Andor, the Star Wars show, which is one of my favorite, if not my favorite TV show on right now. You got Gilroy? I got Gilroy. He also wrote and directed Michael Clayton,

among other things. He said to me, he's like, that was a great interview. He's like, please tell fancy people to watch our show. They don't know about it. I think it's good. I agree. I agree. It's really good. So you should check out the show, but you should also check out my interview with Tony Gilroy, which you don't have to watch the show to enjoy.

Last week on the program, an amazing interview with Fat Joe, the legendary rapper Fat Joe of the Terror Squad, who is one of the most fascinating, hilarious, and charming human beings on Earth. Yeah. And next week, a profoundly fabulous pairing on Bull's Eye with Jesse Thorne. Legendary costume designer Bob Mackie, who is 85 years old.

Whoa. As sharp and charming and brilliant as he has ever been in his life. Just an absolute joy to talk to you. You know him of course for designing clothes for the Carol Warnett Show for more than a decade. All of the unbelievable things that Elton John wore in the seventies,

all of the amazing clothes that Cher has worn over the decades. One of the most extraordinary costume designers of all time. And of course, our friend here on the Judge John Hyman podcast, Jean Gray, who came on Bullseye to talk to me about her book in my remaining years. You can listen to that next week on Bullseye

with Jesse Thorne. So if you're not already subscribed, please go subscribe to the program. I think you will love listening to it. You will learn something. You will get to know an artist you didn't know well. You will get to know better an artist that you thought you knew everything about on Bullseye with Jesse Thorne.

That's amazing, Jesse. And I would just second to everyone out there, please listen to Bullseye. I have gotten so many lines on so many great creators and artists that I didn't know about from listening to Jesse talk to these people so smartly and so thoughtfully. And I just think it's appointment listening that makes your life more interesting and better. So go listen to Bullseye. And speaking of some of those incredibly talented people, you mentioned Jean Grey and Jean's new book

in my remaining years, it's out there. I'm gonna mention a couple of other people. We're in Wisconsin this week, performing at the Majestic Theater. I wanna give a shout out to the Tornado Steakhouse that always remembers my drink order, even after five years. Yeah, shout out to that place.

I give a shout out to the incredible cartoonist and Madison resident, though not Madison native, John Kovalik, who is the cartoonist and creator of the very, very funny and long-running nerdy cartoon strip called Dork Tower. He's the one who introduced me to the Tornado Room to begin with, and he's just been such a huge fan of the show for so many years and such a great guy. So go please check out john's work At dork tower.com. It's really really funny

Coming up later if you are in new york city and anywhere near the nighthawk prospect park, which is my local movie theater Shouting at the screen is returning to the nighthawk on may 22nd This is the incredible fun and incredibly occasional movie night that is hosted by our old friend Wyatt Snack from The Daily Show and Problem Areas and so many other things. And our mutual friend Don Will, who is one half of the incredible rap band, Tanya Morgan. Tanya Morgan. And Don Will is an incredible DJ and artist in his own right.

They host a really fun night. They watch black exploitation movies and make fun of them, and appreciate them, and talk about them, and they're a lot of fun. It's a really great night. I'm going to mention that the Put This On Shop has new stock every week for weeks to come because we have finally caught up with making listings for all the crap that's in our office.

Go to putthisonshop.com and check out awesome new things. But in the meantime, we got to get back to that stage in Madison, Wisconsin. So let's go. Madison, Wisconsin, are you ready for mega justice? Mega Justice. Let's bring out our litigants. Please welcome to the stage, Beth and Aaron. Tonight's case, the Meeple's Court. Aaron and Beth are avid tabletop gamers, but Beth says that Aaron is too slow and no fun.

He spends too much time trying to optimize gameplay. But Aaron says figuring out the system is the fun. Who's right, who's wrong, only one can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and delivers an obscure cultural reference. It is an uneasy lot at best to be what we call highly taught and yet not to enjoy. To be present at this great spectacle of life and never to be liberated from a small hungry shivering self. Never to be fully possessed by the glory we behold. Never to have our consciousness rapturously transformed into the vividness of a thought, the

ardor of a passion, the energy of an action, but always to be scholarly and uninspired, ambitious and timid, scrupulous and dim-sighted. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, please swear the litigants in. Beth and Erin, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling,

despite the fact that he's one of those maniacs who's memorized all the two-letter Scrabble words. Judge Hodgman you may proceed. Beth and Aaron you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment and one of your favorites can either of you identify the piece of culture that I quoted as I entered the courtroom. Aaron why don't you guess first? That was from Star Wars Episode 5. Such... Such confidence... from the white man.

Alright. I'll put that confidently into the guest book. Star Wars Episode 5... Return... The Empire Strikes Back. Probably. The facade crumbles. What kind of nerd are you?

We'll find out in a moment. All right, Beth, you must know the answer. Well, since it was not Tom Waits, I'm going to go with George Eliot's Middlemarch. Oh, great guess. But in fact, it was Tom Waits from Swordfish Trombones and in fact I should have, I would have given it, I didn't want to give it away but it's normally pronounced it's an uneasy lot at best to be what we call highly told and yet not to enjoy. I genuinely don't like it. Who will be present at this great spectacle of life.

Like it's a bit, but it's also not a bit. And never to be liberated. Like it's impressive. From a small, hungry, shivering self. Never to be fully possessed. Like I'm bothered by real Tom Waits, you know what I mean? I'm sorry, Jesse.

It's okay. That was me reading a passage in the style of Bad Liver and Broken Heart by Tom Waits. Passage from Middlemarch by George Eliot. You are correct. Immediate summary judgment in your favor. First time in the history. And only because it's middle March. It's only because I happen to know that you have a first edition of middle March in your home. I do. It is not a first edition of the entire book. Well, because there is no first edition of Middlemarch in your home? I do. It is not a first edition of the entire book. Well, because there is no first edition of the entire book. That's right. You don't have a first edition and that's why you're wrong.

There. I found a loophole. But explain why. It is a first edition of book one, Miss Brooke. Yes. And it was. Because it was published in multiple volumes between 1871 and 1872. Eight volumes.

I did take pictures on my phone of all of the advertisements that are in there, and there is a lot of stationery, particularly for morning. Really? It was an exciting time in the Victorian era. I was so excited when I learned that you had a first edition of Middlemarch and you liked Middlemarch, because Middlemarch was my great project of the first half of this calendar year because my wife was a whole human being in her own right and especially my daughter who was also a whole human being in her own right. My

daughter wrote her college thesis on Middlemarch. My wife loves the book and I'm like well I better read this thing and thanks to the help of our friend Christopher Frizzell and his Middlemarch book group online check it out Frizzlet, he does great book groups online. I read the book and I loved it so much and I was like I got to do a Middle March quote to open this thing and I'd like let me tell you something when you go looking for Middle March quotes on Goodreads all you get are bangers. They're incredible. Listen to this, a prig is a fellow who is always making you a gift of his opinions.

Boom. That could literally be the obscure cultural reference for any Judge John Hodgman. All right, all right. I don't, this, by the way, this is a brand new t-shirt for Judge John Hodgman announcing it now. I don't make myself disagreeable. It is you who find me so.

Disagreeable is a word that describes your feelings, not my actions. 1871, George Eliot. Anyway, we are gonna hear the case, in any case, because that's what we're here for, and I don't wanna waste the good people of Madison's time, so let's hear it. Beth, this is a dispute about a game that you play together, is that right?

It's not one particular game. We've been friends for about, well, Aaron says we've known each other for about 22 years but we've only been friends for about 19 of those. We played a lot of board games. It wasn't just one. And Aaron is really good at board games. I mean, like, not just board games, card games, online games, every game. He's so good.

Mind games. He's so good at board games that he broke one of our favorite games because he figured out a way to win it without using any of the cards. Which? Well, with using a very minuscule percentage of the cards in the game. Which game was this? This game was called Dominion.

Dominion. I mean, it's still called Dominion. I believe we have a set of Dominion here. Let's put it here so that I can refer to it later. Thank you very much. This is a card game. It's the original deck building game is what I read on Wikipedia, I know nothing else besides that. But when it comes, so you play, you play games, tabletop games together in a group of friends and Aaron has his own style of playing, you call it

breaking the game. Aaron, let me ask you this question. Beth accuses you of playing too slowly, of taking the fun out of the game, that, let me ask you this question. Beth accuses you of playing too slowly, of taking the fun out of the game, that you're trying to figure out the mechanics of the game rather than just have fun with your friends. Is it true that you're too obsessed with the rules and as George Eliot says, that you are unable to enjoy the game

because you are too highly taught, too scrupulous, too dim-sighted about the rules and thus unable to be liberated from your small, hungry, shivering self, yes or no? I can't argue with George Eliot, I'm sorry. Yes or no? No. How do you defend yourself?

You've heard the accusation. I plead guilty to being good at games. All right, second summary judgment. games. Alright, second summary judgment. But explain how you play your game differently from Beth. To me a lot of the fun of playing a board game is learning the system, you know, learning the rules, figuring out how they work, and trying to figure out how to play it well, play it optimally. Are you looking for loopholes? No, I'm looking for ways to play the game skillfully and play by the rules to win the game. This dispute is about Dominion.

As I say, I've never played it. I'm going to open this up. I'm going to look at a card. This is a village card, plus one, plus two actions. What the hell is this? That's an example of a card that doesn't help you win the game. This is not... This is not what you would term an optimal card. It is suboptimal. Not optimizing. Let me see if I can find an optimal card. Are these at random here? Just for folks at home, Aaron's look could be described as steely self-satisfaction. This card is a bureaucrat card.

This seems like a fun game. Seems like a lot of fun. Just a great way to escape everyday life. I block your bureaucrat with my middle manager. Gain silver card, put it on top of your deck. Each other player reveals a victory card from his hand and puts it on his deck or reveals a hand with no victory. Only neutralized by rental car counter clerk.

I don't mean to make fun of this game. I'm sure it's great once you understand the rules. But how do you optimize gameplay in order to enjoy it? What is the basic way that you play the game and what are you doing that's different than say Beth? Well, this is a game where you can, you start with some very basic cards and you can buy new cards to add to your deck and they do fun things, I guess like. Bureaucrat stuff? Well.

Filing, really fun filing. Yeah, they let you draw more cards, they let you play more cards, but the thing is you just end up clogging your deck up with things that don't help you win the game. You win the game by getting Victory Point cards. Sure. So the best thing you can do is get rid of all the cards and buy Victory Point cards.

That seems pretty reasonable strategy, Beth. Why is this so wrong? Well, there are about 24 action cards. And then there are three types of coins that you can just use to buy victory cards. And once Aaron figured out, oh, if all I do is use coins and buy victory cards, we just never played with the other 24 cards. So it basically, it wasn't really a game anymore. I'm sorry to interrupt you,

but I I've just been pulling cards at random from this deck, and I've gotten four Thiefs in a row. Thief, Thief, Thief, Thief. They're sorted. They're alphabetical. Each little packet. Each little packet is a different set of cards. I was waiting until I pulled the Black Swan card because it seemed impossible.

Okay. Oh, Thief again. Very good. Have you gotten to the witch card? That's a favorite one. Okay, so. You could curse other players. I'll try to find it, but in the meantime.

I have a question. When this game was named, there was a gasp from the audience. Now, it's likely that any board game would elicit a gasp from a Judg-Shon Hodgeman audience. I will admit. We could say Hungry Hungry Hippos and people would have super strong,

whoa. However, is part of the problem here that this is simply a poorly designed game that trying to win is not fun? What is this heel turn that you're doing? No, I mean, I genuinely am like wondering if there is a way to break this game and the fun way is to not try and win,

like is it just a poorly constructed game? Since, now, it's well established on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast that I do not play board games, because if I win, I feel like a jerk, and if I lose, I feel like a jerk. But is that the case with this game? I would say in my defense that I do play an action card,

which is the card that lets you take other cards out of your deck. So, is that a bad thing? I don't know, but. Yeah, no one, I don't know. I've never played this. I'm sorry, I got a little scared by the four thief cards that I pulled, so I got a little distracted. Beth, can you... can we reset for a moment and you explain to me, in what we call the English language, why it's no fun to play with Aaron? Well... What is Aaron doing that's no fun to play with Aaron.

Well. What is Aaron doing that's no fun? Are we talking about Dominion or just games in general? Cause we stopped. Let's stay out of the specific rules of a particular game cause I can't understand them. We stopped playing this game about a decade ago after Aaron broke it.

But Aaron. He broke it because he found a system to win it consistently. Yes. Right. And how did the other players in your group feel about this? Are you the only one who was upset with it? Or were the rest like, well done, sir? I think what happened was we all wanted to win. So then we all started playing Aaron's way.

And then we realized this game is really boring if you don't use any of the action cards. Got it. Okay, so you got you got bored and was it did the pace slow or or was it actually over too soon because everyone knew exactly what to do because they were using the Aaron system? Yeah, I think it was that. It just kind of it was there was not really a point. And how does this apply to other games that you've played? Well, Aaron is so good at different games. Sometimes when I'm playing a game, for example,

a trick-taking game and Aaron's my partner across the table, he assumes that I'm like, well, we're not that sophisticated. I mean, that's like a thinking game. I don't know. She only owns the first edition of Middlemarch. We're not bridge players. Whoa. I don't know. She only owns the first edition of Middlemarch. We're not bridge players. Whoa. I don't know.

Like we play one called Teeshoe. This isn't 1955. This is 1872. When you're snobby about the first edition, are you under the impression that George Eliot improved it in later editions? It's not like, oh yeah, sure. It's the first edition of Middlemarch,

but then there's Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Middlemarch. It's a whole new system for wooing a cold widow who is afraid to express her feelings. Sorry, go on. Well he, Aaron assumes that, say I'm counting the cards, for example, and he'll say very politely, oh oh I thought you might play this card because all of the aces have already been played and I'm like, oh was I supposed to be keeping track of that? Because I want to feel like I'm smart and good at games, but I don't want to put in

the effort to actually count the cards. Well, I mean, I think a lot of people play games without counting the cards. Go to any casino. They're called losers, of course, but I mean... It takes a high level of concentration and strangeness to be counting cards when some people just want to play a card game. I mean, it's a different style of play. Maybe you shouldn't be partners across the table in these kinds of card games. I love being partners with Beth.

She's the best to play with. Well, why? Well, except for my wife. Let the record show that Aaron pointed into the darkness. He pointed at Canada to indicate his girlfriend. Why do you enjoy playing with her if she obviously doesn't enjoy playing with you? In card terms, she's a wild card. We're all usually a little bit inebriated. So you're playing Drunk Dominion. Is there another way? There's advanced Drunk Dominion.

That's not legal in Wisconsin. I enjoy the unpredictability that Beth brings to a trick-taking game as my partner. Aaron, is it like those poker players who know the most rational move to make, but they also know that the other players will anticipate the most rational move, and so they look up at the clock to see where the second hand is, to use it as a random number generator so that they can computer themselves into irrationality? No, but I think I know how I'm going to play this game next time. I don't mean... I'm sorry. I've been a little snarky about you.

Tell me what you enjoy about playing games. I like looking at a game as a system. Yeah. And a system that has a closed set of rules. And figuring out how to use those rules to play the game optimally. I think it's just fun to put yourself into a system and figure out how to work it and do your best at that. And I would presume that you often win as a result.

I would ask Beth who won the last game that we played. Here we go. I did. Yeah, Beth. Would it be fair to say that based on on what you said, that your enjoyment of the game has a social component that Aaron does not respect because he is laser focused on the rules and optimizing? Is that what's happening?

That could be fair. Aaron, when Aaron goes to this cabin and a child climbs on his lap, does he robotically sweep it aside? No, actually, Aaron is very sweet with the children. I even included evidence of that. Aaron has a special bond with my somewhat robotic nine-year-old. Very nice. Aaron, do you have children of your own? Yes.

How do you optimize parenthood? Still working on that, but they're here, so I have to plead the fifth. Fair enough, fair enough. So you know, Beth, you want me to order Aaron to relax and have more fun. That was what is in my notes here. Is that accurate? Well, I told Jennifer Marmer that I would like that, but I didn't know if that was something you could order someone to do.

So I'm conflicted. Well, I have a question for Aaron. Do you have fun? In board games or in life? All right, let me revise my input. Lawyer. Computer. Do you have fun in board games?

John, you have to pick up the mouse and talk into it. Computer. Do you have fun in board games and query? Very much so. Computer. Do you have fun in life and query? Very much so. Computer, are you relaxed and query?

Yes. End answer. Thank you, computer. Beth, you won that game of Azul. I did. But for the most part, Aaron wins everything, right? Yeah. Okay. So that's what this is really about.

You're tired of losing. When you say you want, because he says he has fun, don't you think he has fun winning? Winners often do have fun. Yeah. It's often fun for winners. Hate to say it. You say that, you know, he says that he's relaxed.

Do you disagree? He seems very calm now, almost like emotionless. I don't know that relaxed is the word I would choose. You want me to rule him to lose more. Oh, I don't know. I think I'd like to... I want to bring Dominion back now that we both have kids and we bring them to the cabin. And I want to play it together and use the action cards

and not take the shortcut way of just winning quickly. But it's a flaw in the game. It's built... Is it against the rules? No. Could you just play better designed games or... Or, for example, play games with a greater element of randomness so that the best player less frequently wins. I mean that's a thing in designing board games, right?

Some are games where anyone might win and some are games where the best player almost always wins. Those are children's games. Wow. the best player almost always wins? Those are children's games. Oh. Wow. Shoots and Ladders is a great game with a three-year-old. I order you to play Hungry Hungry Hippos. Is there a game that, I mean, well, you want to play, you want to bring Dominion back and play with the kids. What...

I really dislike the argument that sometimes people bring to the court, which is, think of the children. Do you know what I mean? It's like, my husband constantly says that a hot dog is a sandwich. How is my child going to develop believing that a hot dog is a sandwich? It's like, no, your problem is with your husband. Don't bring your kids into it. But in this case, you are modeling something for your kids. Strategies for analyzing

the world, strategies for analyzing these games. Like, what is it that you want your kids to take away from these times together at the cabin when you're playing games? Well, to be fair, there are other games we play that are fun and they do have a great time. Like what games? We had our first Dungeons and Dragons game. It was my first Dungeons and Dragons game and my children's first Dungeons and Dragons game and it was probably the most terrible game ever.

I mean, it took us hours and we didn't do anything. Oh, so you're talking about Dungeons and Dragons then. And, but I did laugh until I cried. I mean, so that was fun. But Aaron actually didn't play in that game. Yeah, Aaron, how do you feel about Dungeons and Dragons, open-ended imagination games? My oldest kid ran that game and had a great time running it and I had a great time watching them do it but you didn't play no I did not why not it's not my thing right tell me why I mean it's a

different kind of game isn't it I played it in college but it's too time consuming for me now right okay and Beth said that she wants you to have more fun. To quote the TomTom Club and stop making sense, what do you consider fun, fun nasty fun? I really do enjoy the social aspect of playing games with my friends, especially at the cabin. Every year we've been doing this for now 15 years, minus 2020, and it's a really delightful time for me and it's not winning that I find fun but what I find fun is learning how to play a game as well as I can. But you understand that this is that that might be in conflict with the social aspect of having fun with friends. I mean the game is Dominion you are dominating.

That is fun for you you You like figuring out the system. But I mean, don't you want your friends to have fun too? Longer pause than I would have expected. Well, the answer is obviously yes. But... I also want to enjoy playing a game the way I enjoy playing a game. Okay. What would you have me order if I were to order in your favor?

That I not be required to play a game in a style that I don't find enjoyable. Okay. Beth, what would you have me order? Bring Dominion back and then make Aaron wear a blindfold or something so that everyone else can have fun and get their participation trophy. I would like to try it again after all these years and just see how it goes with no particular role. Do you know how many games there are? Can't you find another game?

Yeah. Is Dominion the best game? Okay. No. Well, there goes that sponsorship opportunity. So what would you have me order then? Well, maybe we need to find a new game that would have the kind of fun imagination element and the strategy element together.

Do you have a game, like maybe a game where you imagine that what hippos eat is marbles? Or where robots both rock them and sock them. All right, I think I've heard everything I need to in order to make my decision I'm going to go back into my chambers. I'll be back in a moment with my verdict. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Aaron, how are you feeling about your chances right now? Not great. Why is that? Because people like fun.

And I'm not loving it. Beth, how are you feeling about your chances? I don't know. I couldn't quite articulate what I want from Aaron, except, yeah, so not great. Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about it. All rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his verdict. There was a time when I was young. I was born at the age of 42.

But that was a youthful 42 when I was 11 or 12, when all of my little friends were getting into what was then only the basic set of Dungeons and Dragons. I also was attracted to the idea of Dungeons and Dragons, the idea of sitting around in a profoundly, in a circle in someone's house in a profoundly sexually uncharged situation to imagine myself escaping from this world into a world of fantasy where I would be engaged in great battles with dragons and I would get some gold coins and get to go into a basement. It was a wonderful idea.

And of course, because I am an only child and therefore obsessed with control of every aspect of my life around me. I could not merely be a player, no, I had to be a dungeon master and thus and I had to therefore learn the rules of the game. So I literally instructed my mother and father to not bother me for several days. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha And do you know what I discovered as I dug deeper and deeper into the lore? I learned it's all fucking math. There's so much math in that game. Like the whole game is escapism through times tables. And I was like, wait a minute.

I can escape into a fantasy world just with my head. I don't need to sit here and roll all these dice and do all these calculations for these dum-dums. Why am I doing this? And I never played Dungeons and Dragons again. Because one thing that I don't like is systems. I don't like studying them. I don't like figuring out how they work.

I mean, within certain realms I do. I don't like studying them. I don't like figuring out how they work. I mean within certain realms I do. I do like rules. I like following them. When I play Scrabble, I like knowing that in fact it's not about the most interesting word that you make. It's about the word that will get you the most points. I understand the fun in that exactly. But I don't take an inherent love of systems the way you do. That does not bring me fun. And yet I cannot deny, Aaron, that it brings you fun. And more than that, it brings you victory again and again. Once you see how the matrix works, you are able to navigate the matrix and leave your so-called human

flesh friends behind as you transcend into a higher realm of understanding and victory. And that's you. And that's something that I don't think is fair for me to tamp down no matter how much Beth would like you to do it. This game, Dominion, I'm sure has its pros and its cons, its features and its flaws, you've found them all. This thing is now dead to your group forever. This, you cannot play this anymore, Beth.

You cannot bring it back and ask him to play the same game a different way. He's always gonna find the way that he wants to play the game, just as you're always gonna find the way that you want to play the game. And that's part of the enjoyment of playing games because in truth you're both assessing a puzzle in a different way and the

different ways that you assess your puzzles the way that you come to understand your respective humanities and by the way Aaron you are a human I acknowledge that. Thank you. Yeah you you're a very special human. So you know, if you're asking me to order Beth that he have more fun, I don't think he can have more fun than he's having right now winning this case. I mean, I don't know whether he was doing some advanced study of the system or whether he just saw some advanced study of the system or whether he just saw through me the minute he sat down.

I bet he probably wants to be at the National, too. I had tickets. You had tickets? Well, thank you. I would say that even though you have obviously lost this evening by having to come here instead of going to see the National, you have won this case because the truth is you have to you people like what they like they enjoy games the way they enjoy them and Beth find another game this is

the sound of a gap judge John Hodgman rules that is all Beth, Aaron, before you go I'm just gonna hit record here on my phone. You guys had tickets to the national? Yes. And you decided to come here? I did. Okay, great. I'm just gonna send that to Matt Berninger real quick.

Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for being here. He just plays the game the way he plays the game. Make sure to follow us on Instagram at Judge John Hodgman. We're also on YouTube and TikTok at Judge John Hodgman Pod. Go to those places, subscribe, follow us, watch all the episodes of Judge John Hodgman. Well, not the live episodes, we don't have cameras there, but you know, all the studio episodes of Judge John Hodgman, you can watch on YouTube in full.

The Judge John Hodgman podcast was created by John Hodgman and Jesse Thorne. By the way, John, Yeah. The YouTube way to watch the show, the best way to share the show. Okay. Different people use different software for their podcasts, whatever, whatever. Some people only watch them, et cetera, et cetera. If you want to share an episode of Judge John Hodgman, go share that YouTube, because if they're a watcher,

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share it with somebody. Just click that little arrow button and it'll pop right up there and you can share it right away. The Judge John Hodgman podcast created by John Hodgman and Jesse Thorn. This episode recorded by Matthew Barnhart. Dan Telfer is our social media manager, AJ McKeon, our podcast editor, Daniel Spear, our video editor, our producer, Jennifer Marmer.

We will talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.