Judge John Hodgman - The Perp Walk

Episode Date: April 9, 2014

Lisa says her boyfriend Mitch's jaywalking is irritating and downright dangerous. Mitch says it's a useful skill, to be honed and used when appropriate. Who's right?

Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm your guest bailiff, John Roderick. This week, the perp walk. Lisa brings the case against her jaywalking boyfriend, Mitch. She says that his method of crossing streets is irritating to her and dangerous too. Mitch says that sometimes jaywalking is appropriate and even safer than crossing at a crosswalk. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Don't cross the street in the middle, in the middle, in the middle, in the middle, in the middle of the block. Don't cross the street in the middle, in the middle, in the middle, in the middle, in the middle of the block. Don't cross the street in the middle, in the middle, in the middle, in the middle, in the middle of the block. Use your eyes to look up. Use your ears to hear. Walk up to the corner when the coast is clear. And wait, and wait, until you see the light turn green. Don't cross the street in the middle, in the middle, in the middle, in the middle, in the middle of the block.

But do swear them in. Guest bailiff, John Roderick. Lisa and Mitch, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling,

despite the fact that he is in no way a jurist, has undertaken no study of the law, is admitted to no professional association nor passed any state bar, is recognized by no federal nor foreign agency, and derives his authority entirely and exclusively from his status as a grandiose former minor television personality? Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Thank you. Judge Hodgman, you may proceed. Thank you very much, guest bailiff John Roderick. We are joined, Lisa and Mitch, today by John Roderick of the Long Winters and the Roderick on the Line podcast. As our guest bailiff is Jesse Thorne is once more AWOL. I don't know where he is. He just shed his bailiff, as Jesse Thorne is once more AWOL. I don't know where he is.

He just shed his bailiff's uniform sitting in the middle of the courtroom floor right now mysteriously. And I guess he's running nude through the prairie somewhere. But luckily, John Roderick is here to join us. Thank you, John. Thank you, sir. Lisa and Mitch, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Lisa and Mitch, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can one of you name the piece of culture that I actually did not paraphrase, that I quoted verbatim to song as I entered the courtroom? Lisa.

That was very beautiful, but no, I cannot. Mitch. Yeah, no, me neither, Judge. There are so many 40 to 46-year-old parents right now who are mad at you. They are bouncing up and down in their chairs. They are mad at you. They are driving in their cars, Mitch, and they are looking to run you over as you walk across the street. Because, of course, i was singing the song guess what it was called in the middle in the middle in the middle that most humans of my age will recognize from the they might be giants children's album no exclamation! as sung by Robin Goldie Goldwasser,

but in fact was originally written by Vic Mizzi sometime in the 1960s as a PSA for the New York City Transportation Authority to teach kids not to get run over by cars.

And Vic Mizzi also wrote the Adams Family theme song and the theme song to green acres if you had named any of the that information i would have said no summary judgment for you i only would have said it if you had named all of that information that is how i protect myself from having to give a summary judgment and holding a podcast. But in this case, you both claimed complete ignorance. And so justice marches on. Lisa, you bring this case against Mitch, who is your boyfriend or what? Yes, he's my boyfriend. All right. And what is Mitch's big problem? is big problem well mitch he is a very confident jay walker sometimes in my opinion too confident he is confidently strides across streets sometimes he says things like it's okay i have the right of

way and like don't worry i made eye contact is he saying this to does he think the people were driving the cars can hear him no I think it's because I'm usually like yelling at him to use he's saying to you yes he's saying it to you and and and where do you live we live in Olympia Washington the capital of

Washington am I wrong John Roderick Olympia Washington is the capital of Washington and and you know that John John Roderick though an Alaskan by birth, is a Washingtonian by resident. Awesome. I am broadcasting from Seattle, the cultural capital of Washington. And arguably the entire Pacific Northwest, I will say, to annoy people in Portland and Vancouver. I will say to annoy people in Portland and Vancouver.

And define for the purposes of our listeners who did not grow up in the Boston area where everything goes, what is jaywalking? Well, jaywalking is crossing the street at a place that isn't at an intersection. So crossing the street in the middle of the street. And are there laws in Olympia, Washington, against jaywalking? Yes, there are a few laws. Washington State's pedestrian laws say that every person crossing a roadway at any point other than a marked crosswalk. In other words, a pedestrian who is crossing in the middle of the street does not have the right of way and is fair game to be run over by a car. Yeah, and it is the law to use a crosswalk in Washington state.

Is that true? It is a law to use a crosswalk or you cross in the middle at your own risk? I'm going to pose this question to Mitch. Yeah, I do believe that it's a law, but it's not enforced at all. So you admit that you are scoffing the law. I do, yes. How many times do you cross the street legally versus how many times you cross the street jaywalkily? Oh, I'd say Olympia is a really easy jaywalking city. So I'd say I probably jaywalk 80% of the time and and when you say it's an easy jaywalking city do you mean to say that uh that it is not enforced or there are very few crosswalks and it's easier to get around by

just running out in traffic uh what i mean by is like the streets are there's not a lot of traffic um the speed limit's like 25 but a lot of people drive like 20 um a lot of one-way streets so you you're only dealing with one direction of traffic flow. So it's easy to get away with it, and it's easier to move through the city by ignoring crosswalks. Is that correct? Yeah. If I were to state your case for you? Sure. John Roderick as a Washingtonian and not just the host of Roderick on the Line and a famous musician, but also a commissioner for the arts in the city of Seattle, right?

Correct. A public employee and the future mayor of Seattle and governor of Washington, if I have my way. If Washingtonians are as wise as you, sir, yes. Oh, you are putting a dog into this hunt on the Mitch side. No, no, no, no. Well, no, not yet. Okay. But is what he says about Olympia true?

Do you know Olympia very well? I do know Olympia quite well olympia is a smallish town there are a great number of one-way streets the pace of the town is very slow bordering on hippie paralysis necrotic and also working in m's favor, although you may take some issue with this judge, is the fact that Washington, although jaywalking is illegal, Washington has a culture of incredible passive aggressive driving. a lot of um if you if you walk out into the street some percentage of drivers will stop in the middle of the road in a way that is like often uh inscrutable and dare i say it unsafe to let you cross rather than uh their instinct what should they do run you over well in new york they they they would run you over or they would beep New York, they would run you over. Or they would beep.

Yeah, they would threaten to run you over. They would act as though you were impinging upon their right to drive. And in Olympia, the culture is much more passive. Oh, yeah. Hey, buddy. You want to get by, right? Oh, hey, man know go right ahead like sure bro sure whatever your life is more important than mine i guess you know what i'm in a car and i already feel guilty about that yeah i know yeah i should be driving i should be walking you're doing you're doing a good job pal you just keep on going yeah thanks man so there would be there

would be a component of that that I sense from Mitch's tone. He may be exploiting. Yeah. Okay, I got you. He may be counting on a certain like Northwestern hippie passiveness to feel maybe safer than he actually is. Because there are also some meth-addled tree-dwelling country folk who might not even be looking at the road as they drive. Right, and their cars might only have three wheels. Right. And they can only get by by going fast.

Right, otherwise one of the axles starts dragging on the ground. Lisa and Mitch, how long have you lived in Olympia? I lived here for almost five years. And Mitch? Same amount of time. Do you guys live together? We do. All right.

Where did you come from before? What is your originating culture? Good question, John. Thanks, sir. I come from Des Moines, Iowa. Oh. Let's table that groan, Mitch.

I come from around Seattle and suburbs of Seattle. Which one specifically? Marysville. Oh, Marysville, okay. Washington, Snohomish, Washington. Now, since you guys have been in Olympia, what brings you to Olympia?

Are you both state senators? Not yet. We both go to the college here. Which is what college, John? They are intimating that they are Evergreen College students. Evergreen being the Santa Cruz of Washington, the college where you determine your own grades? I believe that it was Evergreen College to which my dear friend Adam Sachs applied after he had been rejected from every other college that he applied to.

And the title of his college essay for Evergreen was Why Evergreen? Why me? Why now? The mascot of Evergreen. And he got in. I'm sure he did. I'm sure they gave him a doctorate degree. An honorary doctorate before he even arrived.

The mascot of the Evergreen Sports Club is the Gooey duck yeah which is which is a giant was a giant clam so that gives you some sense of how they feel wait a minute is olympia a clamming town olympia is a major clamming town okay i'm so i'm so, Oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't know that they, I didn't know they clammed up there. So Olympia is coastal.

It's coastal. Yeah. We're on the Southern tip of the Puget sound. Oh, okay. So it's not up on the mountain. That's what I always imagined, but that makes more sense. It's coastal.

Gotcha. I apologize, everyone. Okay. So you are studying there. Is John Roderick's portrayal of Olympia true to your understanding? Mitch, are you taking advantage of the slow folk of Olympia to muscle your way through that town so you can get to all your important appointments and so forth? I usually don't stop traffic to cross the road. I usually wait for a nice break to where I feel comfortable crossing the road. So sometimes if there's some like congestion going on, I will take advantage of that. I know people are supportive of pedestrians and it's kind of an unspoken agreement that we have the right of way in Olympia. But by all means, I don't stop traffic. that we have the right-of-way in Olympia.

But by all means, I don't stop traffic. I kind of wait for a nice break and then rush across the street. It may be unspoken that you have the right-of-way, but it certainly is written that you do not have the right-of-way. Yeah, not in the middle of the street, I don't. But that's why you use best judgment to cross. No, that's why you use it. That's what we're talking about. It's not about me. It's why you use best judgment to cross. Well, that's why, no, that's why you use it. That's what we're talking about. You don't, it's not about me. It's about you.

Where are you going? Where are you going so fast, buddy? What do you get? What do you, what do you do? You walk into class? What are you studying? I'm actually, I just graduated. Congratulations. Good. So where, so what are you, what are you doing? You walk in, you walk into the, I don't know, you can't even work in a video store anymore. I don't know, walk into a coffee shop or a bookstore. I'm just walking around town with friends. Living the dream.

Right. Okay. Have you ever been ticketed for jaywalking? I never have. In five years? No. Did you jaywalk in, what's the suburb? Marysville?

Marysville. Yeah. Yeah. I grew up jaywalking my entire life. Sure, it's part of your indigenous culture. Like if I rule against you, then you're going to have a civil lawsuit against me.

Quite possibly, yeah. Marysville does border the Tulalip Indian Reservations. Oh, okay. So he may have a cultural case. Lisa, have there been any close calls?

There have been. There have been times. Well, I would say a lot of the times when Mitch is jaywalking, it's when we're downtown, and when we're downtown we're often drinking or going to the bars. So a lot of times we're intoxicated.

By the way, can I move in with you guys? Sounds awesome. What's the status of marijuana in Olympia? It reeks of marijuana. Well, no, I'm sure there probably is a lot there. But in Seattle, John Roderick, since you've become Commissioner of the Arts, and I'm not suggesting a causal relationship, causal relationship, but marijuana has become completely decriminalized, correct? Statewide.

Oh, statewide. So that applies to Olympia, and in fact, Olympia is the place where they decriminalized it. Oh, okay. They're in the state house. And Olympia already was a town that did not pay too much mind to the criminality of marijuana beforehand. Right. Obviously, it is both Sodom and Gomorrah. People are smoking up and walking all over the streets doing whatever they want.

smoking up and walking all over the streets doing whatever they want before you guys turn into pillars of salts i don't want to hear about the times that there were some close calls that you tried vaguely to remember from your poor young pop addled and and craft beer addled brain i want you to to tell me the closest and most terrifying call of all time, Lisa. Okay. So the closest call that I can recall is, um, we are walking out of,

out of a movie theater downtown to our car. What were you seeing? Um, this is really important. I think it was, um, Seattle, Seattle's the Stranger.

They put on a porn festival every year. Called Hump. Called Hump. Yes. Homemade porn. Homemade porn. Okay. Yes.

And we were walking to a car, and they served alcohol at this event. No. They did. At the homemade erotic film festival, they served alcohol? Yes. Yes, interestingly enough. Sure.

And we, it's really in the past. Were there seats in the theater or just mattresses? Mattresses. One hanging swings. Mattresses strewn around the floor. And ferns

it was this is really a it's a movie theater setting with alcohol and it's actually a really fun event um john roderick can we just can we just she felt the need to say it's actually a really fun event as if going to a homemade porn film festival in a bar theater would be like a what you you're you would assume it was i could see i could see that turning into a bummer real quick actually i mean as as much as as much as there's half of my body screaming youth is wasted on the young yeah and and and and wanting to move in with you guys. The homemade portion is really what makes me go, maybe it's okay to be almost 43 years old after all. All right, moving on. Okay, so we walk.

So you got into the car. You're walking out of the homemade erotic film fest. Yes, and we're about to cross the street, and there's lots of cars um lots of people too and mitch decides to lead this group i don't think he means to lead them but by being really confident jay walker he goes ahead and cuts and cross across fifth avenue and um there are cars coming and it's dark also and raining i think probably so um this is just a moment where i would be like why not walk 20 feet this way and he stops a lot of cars and i think that's one of the times he said like oh don't worry i've got the right of way but um my argument is that we could have walked 20 more feet to the crosswalk. But did he almost get hit?

Yes, there were cars. Did someone swerve? Was there a screech of brakes? Do you remember any of these things? There were definitely cars. Were all of your sensory inputs all sort of mixed up together? There wasn't a honk because I don't think people in Olympia really honk, but there was definitely abrupt breaking happening.

Did you fear for, did you fear for Mitch's life? Yes, I did. That was a leading question. That was a leading question. I actually ordered that to be stricken from the record. You're just trying to gin up your case against this guy who just knows how to make his way through a city. What are you afraid of? What are you afraid is going to happen, Lisa? Because he'd be jaywalking, he would forfeit his legal right to gain any sort of compensation or for like any injury and that he might even be like at fault for the accident. Yeah, Mitch, that's a good point. Are you throwing yourself in front of cars because you think you're going to get to sue someone and never have to work again? No, that's not the case.

Mm hmm. You remember you're under fake oath i remember mitch have you ever feared for your life uh not while jaywalking other times i have all right that was a leading question tell me about a time you feared for your life oh uh i don't know i guess recently i was snowboarding up at Stevens Pass and wanted to go into the backcountry, and my brother was not really feeling it. I don't like to go back there by myself, but I decided to this time, and I got stuck on top of kind of a ridge

that was real steep and a lot of rocks. How did you get out of this jam? Uh, I kind of just jumped and fell and try to like target my, uh, the places where I would land, um, to get down safely.

Mitch, you know, the rule is never go into the back country alone. I know. It was such a nice day though. It was such a nice day. He's a thrill-seeker. Pattern of recklessness established.

That's what a lot of people who are buried under 50 feet of avalanche say. No, I totally understand. Yeah, that was a bad decision. John, is that really the rule of snowboarding and skiing? It is the rule. Do not go into the backcountry on a sunny day by yourself because they sometimes don't find you until spring. Does this change your estimation

of Mitch? No, I already could sense that this was Mitch. I already sensed that he was somebody who backcountry snowboarded by himself. My sister is cut of this very same cloth. Does she jaywalk through Seattle? With the exact same

insouciance that I'm sure Mitch does. John, as a public office holder in Seattle, can you make an argument to me as to why jaywalking is not merely bad for Mitch and for Lisa's nerves and for the people who just want to be able to safely drive to a homemade porn festival, but is also bad for society. I'm not asking you to make that argument if you don't believe it. I'm just curious if you have an opinion on it. Well, I sympathize very much with Mitch's, what I'm sure is his estimation of his own agility and capability to make it across the street without either interrupting traffic

for the most part or putting himself at risk. But if every young person acted, every young person who had physical agility and 2020 eyesight and a reckless snowboarder's attitude. What are you talking about? Every young person? we would truly be living in a youth-oriented utopia, which is what I think Mitch aspires Olympia to be. Well, and indeed, I think what all of American culture is pointing to, and which only you and I, John Roderick, are fighting hard to stave off with every last wheezy breath we take. Yeah, we are worried that the town car

in which we are riding in the back is going to be slowed even for a moment on our way from one dark cocktail bar to the next by some young person slipping on a banana peel in the street at the precise moment that his girlfriend screams, it's just 20 feet to the crosswalk. How old are you guys? I'm sorry, John.

No, no, no. Go right ahead. Just 25, 25. And you, Mitch, you're a little bit. I'm 30. And you just graduated from college. With my master's degree, though. Oh, all right.

Fair enough, fair enough. I worked on it for a little while. What is your master's degree in? Just hanging? Yeah. You got it. Hanging and homemade porn film festivals. No, it's in environmental policy.

Okay. And Lisa, you are still a student? I am. Yeah. Just let this old man kill himself and find someone your own age. He's too old for you. You do, huh? What are you studying?

I'm studying marine chemistry. I don't even understand words anymore. Why can't people just study things like English? That's the only one that I understand. Marine chemistry. What does that mean? I'm studying ocean acidification. Oh, boy.

How it's affecting the shellfish in Washington. That's... Did you know, John Hodgman, that recently the Chinese banned the import of Washington State shellfish because of precisely this ocean acidity that she's referring to? They found that the shellfish exported from Washington were unsafe for their consumption, and it was an incredible economic blow to the entire state. Well, I did not know that, and I'm glad to hear about it and to address it, because ocean, I do, you know, I have heard a little bit about ocean acidification and its impact on marine life and the economies they're connected to. So, hmm, so what are you going to do?

How are you going to get that geoduck back up to Chinese snuff? It's on you, Lisa. Yeah. Yeah, it was actually arsenic that they found in the geoduck. Well, I have never even been to Olympia, Washington. How can you accuse me of poisoning the town geoduck reservoir just for my own weird kicks fair enough i have to jaywalk out of here excuse me so how do you solve this gooey duck problem well um i am the gooey duck problem with china is more of a political thing but the ocean acidification deal, I'm trying to create a shell recycling

program that will put shells back into the water. And how will that help? I know on the East Coast, you guys have shell recycling programs, but here in Washington, we don't. Right, because shells are intrinsically a base. Exactly. Oh, see, I was going to suggest just pouring a gallon of whole milk into the ocean, but this makes more sense. So you want to take used shells, and instead of using them to pave streets, as we do in lower Manhattan,

you toss them back into the ocean to base it up. Right, or instead of putting them in landfills or wherever they're going. You're going to drop the base, just like this is an emp concert i mean like trying to edm edm emp is actual electromagnetic pulse edm edm bpm bpm whatever it is skrillex i'm young still i can hang let's go to the homemade porn. What do you want me to order if I find in your favor, Lisa? So I would like it, you to order Mitch to never be able to jaywalk,

at least in my presence, and in my presence to always hold my hand when crossing the street at a crosswalk. Mitch, what's your problem with that? I don't have any problem with that, except I would really like her to learn the skill of jaywalking. I think it's an important, valuable skill, and I think it will actually

make her a safer pedestrian if she learns how to cross the street without the use of crosswalks. Do you have evidence to suggest that she is acting recklessly by crossing at crosswalks? What skills do you think she should have that she does not have? Well, just to be able to be coherent of the traffic and to know the speed patterns, you know, like just to know your window and like be comfortable. Of course, know what the word coherent means. Yeah, well. Yeah, that sort of thing.

Like, we want to travel abroad quite a bit. And not every city in the world has crosswalks. No, I know. So a lot of times, you know, it makes sense to learn how to do it. Buenos Aires is going to murder you, sir. Yeah, no, it's up there. Do you get what I mean, though? It's better to learn here in a passive city where people are calm and there is crosswalks,

and you kind of have the unimplied right away, and you kind of have the unimplied right away, than to go into a country that doesn't have any crosswalks and be like culture shocked already and then have to cross a busy intersection without the use of a crosswalk. By learning it here, she'll be able to strengthen a skill that might come in handy later on. So what skills specifically,

what's your perfect street crossing checklist that you would teach her in order to become a proficient jaywalker? I guess just becoming confident crossing the street. Looking both ways, you know, and identifying cars that are coming at what speed they're supposed to be coming. Trying to see if the drivers are paying attention, if they see you make eye contact with them um things like that i guess the the this is the this is the uh the green cross code of the united kingdom for advising children how to cross the street safely think find the safest place to cross then stop stop, stop, stand on the pavement near the curb, curb spelled K E R B. Use your eyes and ears.

Look all around for traffic and listen, wait until it's safe to cross. I'm yelling. Cause it's all in caps. Wait until it's safe to cross. If traffic is coming, let it pass. Look and listen.

When it's safe, walk straight across the road, arrive alive, keep looking and listening. That last one is a little bit weird because if, if you've arrived alive, a mission accomplished, you don't need to keep looking and listening quite the same way. And I think this is for helping pedestrians cross streets safely, whether or not there is a zebra or zebra crossing. That is to say a crosswalk. So what is your version of that, Mitch? Go. You are crossing the street in the middle. Tell me what goes through your head. Give it to me in an order that we can put on a piece of paper that we can,

that we can put, that we can put on a t-shirt for, for, for our store. Okay. One, you find a nice car that's parked in the street or some kind of large object to kind of position yourself behind so you can peek your head out um if you if you don't have a clear view of the street um two you look up and down the street you look left you look right you look left again and you you see if any cars are coming um you listen uh for for vehicles approaching and uh when you find a good gap in the traffic that you feel like you can comfortably, at a comfortable pace, kind of shuffle across the street.

Shuffle? Shuffle? Shuffle? Mosey! Well, either walk or run, depending on how much time you have. Oftentimes, you can just do a brisk walk across the street comfortably, and other times you might have to run. But then also before that, looking ahead across the street where you're going to be landing at, making contact with the opposing sidewalk is a very important thing to look at, too. So are you telling me that when you stumble drunk out of a homemade hug and kiss picture that you're going through all this in your mind, sir? Come on. No, no. I actually don't think that crossing the street that night was probably the best decision under the circumstances.

I think I've heard everything I need to hear to make my decision. I am now going to wait patiently at the curb, K-E-R-B, until it is safe to cross into my chambers. One moment, please. Left, right, left again. All right, I'm going to go arrive alive. I'll be back in a moment to render my judgment. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Now, Lisa and Mitch, I have to know, do you feel like you share a political viewpoint

or do you differ in your politics as well? I think we share for the most part. And I just, I get the sense that I mean, because your view about crossing the street is sort of a classic although you are both

clearly liberals, Lisa, you have a liberal nanny state mentality whereas mitch is more of a liberal libertarian i think that has to do with uh i think my theory on is it has to do with her upbringing um i was very at an early age you know my my dad crosses the crosswalk jaywalks you know like um i was a skateboarder as a child so i skate in the middle of the street and ride bikes in the middle of the street and she grew up and i grew up in kind of a small smaller town that that was comfortable with and i think des moines is more of a driving town you know right right and a midwestern prairie city yeah so she wasn't really exposed to

the uh exposed to jaywalking so much as a as a youth as like an adolescent and youth you know so we'll be back in just a moment with judge hodgman's decision hello i'm your judge john hodgman the The Judge John Hodgman podcast is brought to you every week by you, our members, of course. Thank you so much for your support of this podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at MaximumFun.org. And they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network, boy, oh boy, that would be fantastic. Just go to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft. And did you know that most of the dishes at that very same restaurant are made with made in pots and pans? Really? What's an example? The braised short ribs. They're made in, made in.

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You may be seated. Thank you for enduring my rush across the street to reenter the courtroom, at which point I was almost killed by a semi-trailer. which point I was almost killed by a semi-trailer. That said, I will tell you that I might have recused myself because I am myself a pretty avid, not avid in the sense that I don't take pleasure in it, but a pretty common jaywalker. You know, it is not unknown for me to cross 7th Avenue and Park Slope in the middle of the street because it is the quickest way from Grumpy Coffee to the wildly inappropriately named corner store, The Bad Wife.

I don't know why they called it The Bad Wife, and guess what? Neither do they. But that's where you go and you get your organic lettuces and such. And the reason is that I grew up actually crossing Massachusetts Avenue all the time in the middle of the intersection. Every street cross that I made growing up in Boston and Brookline and the Chestnut Hill area of Brookline where I spent my growing up times in reverse chronological order, we would cross in the middle all the time. In fact, in Chestnut Hill, which is this posh neighborhood that straddles Brookline and Newton, it was unusual that you would ever see a crosswalk or, for that matter, a crossing light. That's how you got from Peter Rosenmeier's house to Jeremy Morrison's house. That's how you did it. And I think there's something in what Mitch says about the difference between growing up in a rural mixed pedestrian and car town versus a town that is mostly cars. Now, I can't speak to Des Moines, Iowa being a mostly driving town.

John Roderick, you groaned audibly when you heard the words Des Moines. So you have some familiarity bred contempt for it. Is that more of a driving town than a walking town? Oh, it wasn't contempt of Des Moines. I think Des Moines is a lovely and in some ways amazing city. city uh but it is um it is very much a plains city which is both a driving town and also it's in the middle part of america where respect for the law is more much more pronounced it's pronounced and is in and is really preeminent like that, that is the, you know, that is the heart of the kind of America that believes in crosswalks. It is pronounced and pronounced correctly. And because it is a plains town, things are laid out on a very clear grid.

Big, wide boulevards. There's a windy river. It's kind of a lovely place, actually. That little downtown is kind of getting restored. And the capital of Iowa, if I'm not mistaken, correct? Indeed. Yeah, capital from capital to capital. The Lisa story.

So I do think that there is a cultural difference. So I do think that there is a cultural difference. And I only became aware of it because there has been a real crackdown on jaywalking in New York City, in Bill de Blasio's New York City. Any state. Because there was a rash of pedestrian deaths at the beginning of this year, 2014. And Bill de Blasio, of course, is my neighbor here in Park Slope. Workout partner. Yeah, he's my workout pal at the Prospect Park Y. And immediately after a real crackdown occurring on jaywalking and him speaking out against it, he was filmed by the New York Post, I believe,

or the Daily News, crossing in a crosswalk, but against the light yet another one of the great bill de Blasio blunders of the first four months of his mayorality, including eating pizza with a knife and fork and dropping the groundhog on groundhog's day, which is the reason we now continue to live in a wintry apocalypse here in the middle of the end of March, which should be going out like a lamb, but it's biting my ass like a lion i will also point out in that photograph that de blasio was crossing against the light with armed bodyguards and he was on the phone too

and there is this delicate dance particularly in olymp, Washington, between the law and its purpose. And we dance this dance wherever we are when we're talking about a law where you balance, you stand on the edge of a river of traffic and you balance society against your own desire to get that cheesesteak over there. And your own intuitive knowledge that it isesesteak over there, and your own intuitive knowledge that it is perfectly safe for you to cross right then. Society be damned. And I think that it is, in a sense, a victimless crime until there is a victim. And when there is a victim, that does not end well for anybody. And the only thing that makes me hesitate to say, do what you want, libertarian dude, is the fact that the stakes are really high when you cross the street in a place that a driver is not expecting you to cross

the street. It is not like possessing a little bit of legal marijuana and watching some of your neighbors take their shirts off on screen, a victimless and yet gross crime. It is a crime that when there is a victim, it will profoundly affect your life and it will profoundly affect the lives of the dum-dum who potentially hit you. And so, and it is, you acknowledge, illegal. Even if it is not very well enforced law, you are nonetheless scoffing it and you're doing so knowledgeably. The laws of nature and snowboarding when you go into the backcountry and risk your life and the forever and the mourning of your family members and your lovely girlfriend Lisa that will occur once you have killed yourself because you wanted to be in the woods by yourself for a little bit. These are things that we all keep in balance every day as we navigate the cities that we live in. And we all make judgments of relative safety and risk. And I think that it is reasonable to say, sir, that I bet you are pretty good at crossing the street. And I bet you are pretty good at crossing the street. And I bet you are pretty good at crossing the street illegally. And I would even say that there's something to be said for your admonishment to the nanny state crosswalk walkers

that they ought to learn that they should be aware of the cars around them, that they are not in a tube of protection, but indeed are putting themselves at risk as much as you are in many ways when they step into that crosswalk, that those lines do not protect them. But when you make that argument, sir, you acknowledge that there is risk, that there is life-threatening risk. And so, I can only find in favor of the law overall, That said, you will continue to scoff it as long as you, until you learn the hard way that it is probably in your best interest to not put yourself into the middle of traffic. Probably, you know, Olympia, Washington better than I do. And you know, I don't be, I am not jaywalking, say, in the middle of Upper Broadway where those people were killed in New York City.

Seventh Avenue is a quieter place. I'm not going to promise I'll never jaywalk again, and nor do I ask you to promise to do so, sir, either. You will face the consequences one way or another by either being ticketed or hit or hurting someone or yourself, and that will teach you eventually, and I hope that it all works out for the best. But I can say, and I can so order what Lisa requests, that when you are with her, you be cognizant of the fact that you do not walk alone in life, but in fact affect the people around you depending on your actions, and that when you are with her, you walk the extra 20 feet to the crosswalk. And when you are with her, you hold her hand when you cross the street. Why? Not because it's moral, ethical, or legal. It's adorable. The minute she said, hold my hand, I was like, you win. Too adorable to not rule in her favor.

Sorry, sorry, buddy. But that's what being in a relationship is all about. Seeding to the adorableness of another person. Just like being in society is balancing your individual needs against those of the people you wish to keep in your lives. And so whatever you do on your own time, I urge you to be really careful. Lisa, I also urge you to learn from your boyfriend, ace street-crossing expert Mitch, to be hyper-aware of the actual dangers

that occur every time you step out into the road. But I do so order that when you guys are crossing streets together, you seek out a crosswalk and you hold hands because I love it. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge Sean Hodgman rules that is all. Lisa, how do you feel about the judge's decision? I feel really happy to be, I'm happy and excited to cross the street with Mitch holding my hand.

Oh, I love it. And Mitch, how do you feel? Can you accept that judgment? Yeah, I feel great I have no problem crossing the street with Lisa holding her hand that's right guys you know what life isn't all about drinking

beer and getting tattoos and watching homemade erotic films sometimes it's just about holding your girlfriend's hand yeah no I think that's a great judgment and thank you for that films. Sometimes it's just about holding your girlfriend's hand. Yeah. No, I think that's a great judgment and thank you for that. I'm going to come down to Olympia. I'm going to drive around real slow

with my seat all the way back so you can just see my eyes above the windowsill. I'm just going to drive around that stupid loop in downtown looking for you two. I know. And when you do, John, I want you to take a picture with your camera phone

and then get it and then steer into a pole because you weren't paying attention. I'll take you down there, John, when you're in Washington. Yes, please. We'll go down on vacation. Yeah, that'd be great. All right, well, thank you for appearing on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

Thanks for having us. Thanks, guys. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace, because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. there yeah i'm trying to spell it but it's tricky let me give it a try okay if you need a laugh and you're on the go call s-t-o-p-p-b-a-d-i it'll never fit no it will let me try if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p-p-p-d-c-o-o ah we are so close stop podcasting yourself a podcast from maximumfun.org. If you need a laugh, and you're on the go. Don't cross the street in the middle, in the middle, in the middle, in the middle, in the middle of the block. Oh, hey, John. All right, let's clear the docket, John Hodgman.

Do you want to sing that song with me? Don't cross the street in the middle, in the middle, in the middle, in, John. All right, let's clear the docket, John Hodgman. Do you want to sing that song with me? Don't cross the street in the middle, in the middle, in the middle. I don't know how I... We started too low. We started too low. Don't cross the street in the middle, in the middle, in the middle, in the middle, in the middle of the block. Robin Goldwasser is so sad she wasn't able to join us on this call. I called her.

I tried to get it. I know. It would have been great. I saw the text. I wish she'd... She's a busy lady. She was making puppets or something. That's right.

Everyone go out and buy They Might Be Giants album, no exclamation point, or that track itself on iTunes, whatever you feel like. Bed, bed, bed. Oh, that's a good one, too. All right, let's clear that docket

you were talking about. All right. Raymond writes, My dispute is with my significant other, Danielle. We live in a very nice but small apartment in Oakland, California. Danielle is obsessed with a collection of mugs that range from slightly attractive to somewhat ugly. We've accrued about 20 mugs over the years from friends, family, and yard sales. Just yesterday, Danielle brought home a new one, a gift from her employer. Our apartment can't entertain 20 people, and even if it could, it is

unfathomable that we would need to make 20 cups of tea. Danielle says that we need them all, not just because she likes them, but also what if one of them breaks? This is an eventuality I would welcome a few times over. I seek an injunction. Either she lower the mug count to a reasonable number, say 12 mugs, or that she get rid of two mugs for every new one she brings home. Now, John, do you happen to know whether these are the actual names of the people or if they've been changed?

Raymond and Danielle. Do you happen to know if these are their actual names or have they been changed? I do not know. Because I have a feeling Danielle's name is actually a pseudonym for my wife, Catherine. And that I may have written this in my sleep, in my other guise of sleepwalking Raymond. A fugue state where you become Raymond, the werewolf, the tidy werewolf? Well, yeah.

I mean, I'm tidy as a man and extra tidy as a werewolf, but the werewolf who has had it with all the mugs. But the werewolf who has had it with all the mugs. And the reason is that you know from visiting us when we spent some time in Maine last summer that my wife is nuts for the pottery of the Blue Hill Peninsula, specifically Rowan Tree's pottery when it was made. And it's made in reproduction now, but it is no longer made. And it's made in reproduction now but it is no longer made and the fascinating history i had no idea how fascinating this pottery was until i realized that it was made this pottery this pottery uh was founded in order to employ uh the uh fishing families during the winter time to make pottery out of the natural clays and pigments in the ground of

Maine. And it's beautiful. Yeah, you may not be aware, but your wife, Catherine, converted my lady friend into this pottery ownership. And now we have some, or she has some small collection of it, a growing collection of it. So let me ask you this question, John. How many mugs can I put you down for how many can i send you 15 yeah i can't i can't i don't know

where these mugs i don't know where these mugs are coming from we have so many of these mugs and they're beautiful but i am in i am in raymond's camp here we can't close the cupboard what were you going to say, John? I interrupted you. I'm afraid that I am on – I'm firmly in Danielle's camp. Oh, boy. As you know, I have probably at least 20 vintage coffee mugs from various small airports and like sheriff's offices from around the country. In addition to another collection of beer steins that I use for coffee, in addition to so many other collections of glassware, I won't bore you with them now,

but I took the doors off of my cupboards. I know. So that I could see my coffee mugs because they bring me so much pleasure. edition where a guy wrote in saying that he had a bunch of uh that he he had a collection of uh sundae cups from baseball parks in the in the shape of the various teams hats right little plastic sundae cups ice cream sundae cups and and his wife was really annoyed at him because there wasn't room in the cupboards anymore. And I pointed out to him that the difference between a collector and a hoarder is a proper displaying mechanism. If you are displaying the thing that you love in a reasonable way, that may be termed a collection. But if you are shoving it into a cupboard beyond reason, then you are moving into an obsessive territory.

Well, and this is the thing. The only thing that separates me from someone shoving coffee mugs into a dark kitchen cabinet is that I took a screwdriver out and took the doors off. Yeah, in a way you, you, you, you went so insane that it came back around to sanity because someone who's taken the cupboards off the door, the doors off their cupboards is, is I think almost by definition bonkers until you got to the point.

It's like, so I can see my mugs better. There is, there is method in that madness that i appreciate but my and so i feel like raymond in this situation might be somebody who wants all of his pottery and crockery and dishware and glassware to match there are lots of people like that in the world who want there to be four matching glasses four four matching plates, four matching cups. And that is how they bring order to the world.

And the problem is not just that there are 20 coffee cups, but there are 20 unmatching coffee cups. Well, I certainly would always trust you, John Roderick, to state someone's real problem no matter what they have actually told us. And you may very well be right. But his complaint that they have too many coffee cups, too many coffee mugs, that could rationally be used,

I think that that is a fair complaint. And so what I think they need to do is have a conversation as to whether or not these coffee mugs are to function as mugs or to transition into being a collection. And if they are a collection, then Danielle has to take responsibility for that and find a place to keep her collection that is not active rotation use. Well, I see. Now, I am a fan of useful objets as you know i have i have more than 20

globes i have more than 20 pairs of cowboy boots sure i have more than 20 switchblades and you live alone oh that's true and perhaps that's why I live alone. Cause or effect. But all of those things are in active rotation. The 20 coffee cups mostly all get used. Sure. Some of them are in the dishwasher. You need a new coffee cup. You know, they all make it into, they all make the round.

And of course, those globes are in active rotation. Literally. Anyway, you know, sure, she moves her coffee cups over to some like menagerie shelving. But then she doesn't have use of them anymore. So she's being deprived of something. Well, okay. Either they break up or they sit down and they determine what is an appropriate number of coffee cups to keep in active rotation. Those are kept in the active rotation cupboard. The rest go into a workshop, a storage studio and on a shelf in her room, her office, whatever.

And then she can rotate them in and out as she wants to. Right. Okay. wants to. Right. Okay, good. We agree. Let's move on. All right. And now something from a former litigant. My name is Dan Pasternak, he writes.

I was on the Judge John Hodgman podcast back in 2012, the Golden State debate. Were we ever so young? No, 2012. It had only been six years since I'd released an album. The Conflict of the Original Show was my two best friends. Putting the Days to Bed is a great album by the Long Winters, by the way. Everyone should go out and buy it immediately.

The Conflict of the Original Show was my two best friends, Sammy and Harry, fake names, trying to convince me to move out of my parents' house to either L.A. or New York City. I remember this. When I was on the podcast, goalless, living in my parents' house, unable to write,

John Hodgman injuncted me to move to the Brooklyn of Brooklyn, the Bronx, where I was to begin a new and creative period. I thought maybe you'd be curious about the weird turns of my life. Are you? John Hodgman?

For the purposes of podcasting, I will say yes. All right. And I am, and I am too. I have met a person confirming my and Sammy's determination to not be a couple. All right. I move to an alternate borough, West Philadelphia, born and raised, where living is even cheaper than Center City or the South Street area so praised by the judge. Is he being funny when he says West Philadelphia is an alternate borough of New York? I think he is. I think he is.

I think he is. I think that's pretty funny. And as instructed by the judge, I am writing again. Led by your encouragement and the fun of being on a radio show, I started making a podcast myself. Oh, God. It's called... I will allow your contempt to balance the obvious buzz marketing that this guy is doing for his own dumb podcast. I will not make you say it. I will allow your contempt to balance the obvious buzz marketing that this guy is doing for his own dumb podcast.

I will not make you say it. I will say it. It's called Never Forget Radio. Go on. Read on. Although I think I was too embarrassed to say it on the air, what I've always really wanted to write is accessible feminist influenced history. Or something that merged history and art and music in a feminist context and a marxist context feminist marxist influenced history i am reveling in the pain

that it causes you to read these words but i'm with you dan it's also been a way of working through my adolescence in the bush era it's about the post 9-11 era recent history oh i get it never forget radio never forget radio is it a conspiracy podcast it's a it's a birther truther podcast no he says i promise it's a it's a feminist influenced birther truth or podcast. He does say in parentheticals here, I promise it is not a conspiracy podcast, which is what every conspiracy podcaster says. Right?

Exactly. This would not have happened without my appearing on the judge, John Hodgman show. So thanks again to you and everyone there. Well, having never listened to this podcast, Never Forget Radio, I can neither endorse it nor unendorse it. But I'm glad, Dan, that you have found a version of happiness in your life that involves living in an expensive urban setting and making a thing and giving it away for free.

That is an important part of every child's life these days. And I hope you enjoy this phase happily and that you eventually grow out of it and move on to whatever next phase gives you the most happiness. And I wish you the very best. And I think John Roderick probably has some things that he would like to tell you privately. So go see him after a show. Yeah, come talk to me.

Come talk to me, and we'll work on your podcast pitch. John Roderick, you have your own show that you've been doing lately at the Rendezvous in Seattle. Is that not so? I'm now doing a weekly live show at the Rendezvous in Seattle that I have to credit you. No. Well, I have to credit you and I have to credit us. Us. A couple of years ago, you and I engaged in a healthy brainstorming session where we arrived at the idea that a weekly show was a creative, would be an excellent creative sandbox and proving ground. And you took that brainstorming session and went and spent a year doing a weekly show called Secret Society. I do not know what you're talking about. And you, from what I understand, from what I gather, your, uh, alter ego, uh, werewolf

Raymond, uh, derived great personal enjoyment and also professional, uh, uh, growth. I can't say anything about that. This is not a conspiracy podcast. I don't talk anything about that. This is not a conspiracy podcast. I don't talk about secret societies on it. In any case, I spent the last year not doing anything and wistfully gazing

across the United States at all of your mythical fun times. And so this year I began a weekly show, which is called Roderick's Rendezvous here in Seattle. And it is so far proved to be exceedingly valuable and exceptionally fun. And what would be the best way for listeners to find out about when the next show is to follow you on Twitter or? Well, they can certainly follow me on Twitter,

John Roderick on Twitter. The shows are selling out rather quickly, so if you are coming to Seattle and want to go to one of these shows, or if you're a local person, you should probably reach out and try and get a ticket through alternate means. Run, don't walk across the street to find a ticket. But hopefully the shows will be a proving ground for material that will find another foothold somewhere in the culture. So the ideas generated there will be available elsewhere soon.

the ideas generated there will be available elsewhere soon and indeed John Roderick and I are going to do a show of some kind together on June 2nd in Santa Fe New Mexico as a command performance for His Grace George

R.R. Martin you can find tickets to that and all of my upcoming live solo and non-solo appearances, johnhodgman.com slash tour. And I have nothing else to say. I mean, it's been great, John. Thank you so much for being the guest bailiff these past couple of weeks. The pleasure is always mine.

Well, thank you, sir. It's a great pleasure. And I have, in the past, the time, the one time before when I was a guest bailiff, or the two times I guess before, I've met a great number of interesting people out in the world who have come up and said, I first heard about you on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. And then they became listeners of the Roderick on the Line podcast and good friends. And so this is a cultural meeting ground. Roderick

on the Line is also something, it's one of my favorite podcasts and you should listen to it. You can go to all the regular places and include, and there is a Twitter account for that as well, right? It's Roderick on. Roderick on, yeah. Right?

And then on iTunes and everything else. So there you have it. Thanks very much again, John Roderick. And thank you all for listening to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thanks to Peter Rawlings for suggesting this week's case name. Thanks, Peter. Thanks, Peter. To suggest a name for a future case, like us on Facebook. Judge Hodgman regularly puts out a call for submissions.

I've been your guest bailiff, John Roderick. Julia Smith produces the show. Mark McConville is our editor. Thanks for joining us for the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thanks, guys. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support the show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Mark McConville.

You can check out his podcast, Super Ego, in iTunes or online at GoSuperEgo.com. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, go to maximumfund.org slash JJHO. If you have thoughts about the show, join the conversation on our forum at forum.maximumfund.org and our Facebook group at facebook.com slash judgejohnhodgman. We'll see you online and next time right here

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