Judge John Hodgman - The Smoking Pun

Episode Date: August 28, 2019

Content warning: This episode is almost entirely about cooking meat. If you find that subject to be unpleasant, you may want to hold out for next week's episode! Emily brings the case against her husband Eric. Eric enjoys smoking meats and brisket in particular. Emily complains that smokes brisket too often and that he doesn't manage his time properly during the smoking process. Eric says the brisket is done when it’s done. With Expert Witness Aaron Franklin of Austin's beloved Franklin Barbecue! Huge thanks to Aaron Franklin for joining us this week! His newest book is Franklin Steak. You can also read about his brisket technique in Franklin Barbecue: A Meat-Smoking Manifesto. Thank you to Will Beecher, Daniel Gilbert, & Emily JoAnn Holasek for naming this week's case! To suggest a title for a future episode, follow Judge John Hodgman on Facebook. We regularly put out a call for submissions.  

Judge John Hodgman listeners, Bailiff Jesse here. This week's episode is almost entirely about meat. So if meat is gross to you, you might want to wait for next week's episode because that's what this one is about. Let's get into it. Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm Bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, the smoking pun. Emily brings the case against her husband, Eric. Eric enjoys smoking meats, and particularly brisket. Emily complains that he smokes brisket too often, and he doesn't manage his time properly during the smoking process. Eric says the brisket is done when it's done. Who's right, who's wrong? Only one can decide.

Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom and presents an obscure cultural reference. You know, I hear this is what it's like in Brooklyn. Have you ever been to Brooklyn? Well, who needs Brooklyn when now you can get real, authentic Brooklyn-style barbecue right here in North Carolina? Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in. Emily, Eric, please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?

I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he is insufficiently smoked? I do. I do. I do. Leaving to his tough, chewy demeanor, Judge Hodgman, you may proceed.

Yeah, that's right. My collagen is not yet gelatin, but as long as I sit here in this hot box in my chambers, maybe I'll get past my stall and start loosening up soon. Meanwhile, Eric and Emily, you can be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of your favors. Can either of you identify the piece of culture I referenced as I entered the courtroom?

Emily, we'll start with you. Boy, I had some guesses. I thought it may be, but that doesn't seem to fit any of them. So I'm going to guess. You had prepped some guesses? I had prepped some guesses. Well, tell me what was on your mise en place of guesses. I mean, I was going to guess maybe something from Aaron Franklin's new Masterclass series

or maybe even his new book. Okay. And I kind of had a few Anthony Bourdain references thrown in there. All reasonable go-tos and a couple of great plugs for Aaron Franklin. I hope he's sponsoring this podcast he ought to be eric what are your guesses i'm gonna put them all in the guest book that's fine sure yeah i mean i think the only thing that i was prepared was maybe something again from aaron's book uh a meat smoking manifesto but i don't think that your quote

was from that book and that would be my guess okay all right that's fine now mystery expert witness would you like to guess huh i think it's from a secret project by john hodgman and david reese oh my goodness you're absolutely right mystery guest oh my expert witness mr aaron franklin himself of franklin barbecue in austin te Texas, and author of Franklin Barbecue, A Meat Lover's Manifesto, and forthcoming or already arrived book on steak. What's the latest in the arsenal of products in the Franklin line? That would be the latest. It came out, gosh, maybe a month or two ago, about the same time as the masterclass. I didn't even know about the masterclass. And, you know, we're acquainted, Aaron Franklin. We enjoy spending time together. I'm a bad friend and I apologize. Well, it's okay. I'll give you a personal masterclass and you know we're acquainted aaron franklin we enjoy spending time together i'm a bad friend and i apologize well it's okay i'll give you a personal masterclass it'll it'll be

fine oh thank you very much if you don't know wait i want to make a sound too so if you folks don't know aaron franklin is a person who uh who runs a barbecue establishment in austin texas called franklin Barbecue that has become very, very famous. And with good reason. It's the best barbecue I've ever eaten, honestly. And Aaron Franklin's barbecue, you either wait in line for a long time or you can preorder and pick it up. And you specialize, would you dare say, in brisket, which is the traditional Texas barbecue? Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. That's kind of what we're known for, I guess. That and hugs. All right. And the new book is called? Franklin Steak. Franklin Steak. Yeah.

It's kind of much like the first book, Meat Smoking Manifesto, which was mostly about Franklin barbecue, cooking brisket, offset smoking, stuff like that. And throughout the process of that book, we kind of started getting pretty nerdy on steaks. So we did another one. And that is not off heat cooking. That is on heat, high heat cooking, correct? Yes. Because in New England, where I'm from, Jesse, that's a region of the United States in the

Northeast. Sorry, not familiar. Yeah. In New England, where I'm from, I grew up calling everything that was cooked outdoors barbecue, especially if it had commercially bottled sauce poured on it, including steaks. You would barbecue a steak. But barbecue means off-heat, low-and-slow cooking. I learned that in part from reading your wonderful book, Meat Manifesto.

And I was going to quote from that book, which I love. I was going to say... I probably wouldn't have guessed it right anyway i was going to come in with this i'd never shown any particular aptitude for cooking with fire negative talent probably so i went online to try to figure out how to make a brisket let's just say the web in 2002 is not as robust as it is today i called my dad and asked him how to smoke a brisket and he said something vague like just cook it till it's done which would have been a wonderful quote for this dispute between emily and eric over brisket cooking but then i had a feeling that one or both of them would know the source would know that it was you aaron franklin and i also had a feeling that you yourself aaron franklin might not remember writing

that so i rather yeah you know it kind of rings a bell rather than ruin the contest and embarrass our welcome guest i chose something else which was a secret project no one could know about it and you certainly couldn't have known about it aaron if i hadn't texted you right before we started recording what the answer was david reese and i this is just a little pre-plug i'm not allowed to announce this yet but david re Reese, America's favorite professional pencil sharpener, and a former host of Going Deep with David Reese, and I, John Hodgman, the co-host of this program, have a secret television project, which I hope I can announce to you very soon. We're really proud of it. And I feel somewhat optimistic for once that it will actually see

the light of day. And when it does, I really hope people will check it out because there are a lot of screens and a lot of streams and there's a lot of stuff to miss and I don't want you to miss it. So this is a quote from a character who plays my dad in North Carolina saying that now you can get real authentic Brooklyn style barbecue in North Carolina. And the joke being that barbecue only came to Brooklyn five years ago and now there's only barbecue in Brooklyn. Have you been to New York lately? Aaron, isn't that true? Yeah, man, the barbecue scene in Brooklyn specifically is insane these days. There's all kinds of good stuff out there. Yeah, and people are doing it okay for once. I think they're doing it better than okay. I'd say it's pretty darn good, even by Texas

standards. All right. Emily and Eric, what's going on? Emily, you bring this case to this court. What is the nature of your dispute? My dear, sweet husband, Eric, has kind of made a habit of threatening me with the smoking of briskets. And just like at the drop of a hat or like the moment we would even mention that maybe people would come to our house for any sort of entertainment. He will offer to smoke a brisket and sometimes has even just like bought a brisket and then casually, you know, kind of worked it into conversation as plans have come together to do events. And it just creates a litany of, you know, kind of subsequent issues after the brisket is then smoked. And I'd kind of like for that to stop. Why is a smoked brisket a threat to you?

Because in my universe, a smoked brisket is the greatest promise anyone can ever make. Yeah. I mean, I think part of it maybe comes back to like I grew up with an older brother and maybe I'm just a little bit suspect of people's motives. And so sometimes I think he does it like just to get under my skin and like have me react to his offer to smoke a brisket. And then he can kind of have that high ground of like I made an offer and I was going to smoke the brisket. But now you're doing all these other things instead of just letting me smoke a brisket. the brisket, but now you're doing all these other things instead of just letting me smoke a brisket.

You can count on me to take your husband and pull him apart to his constituent pieces and examine his motives very carefully and figure out which ones are genuine and which ones are part of his sick agenda to tease you. That's going to happen. Don't worry. Yes. What I'm trying to say to you is why is brisket a problem in your life? Why is this even an issue? Do you not like it? Personally, smoked meats, with no offense to Aaron Franklin, whose line I have stood in, smoked meats are just not my personal favorite. It's not my preference. It's not kind of where I go first. Well, they're not mine either.

Fair. I'm just kidding. Totally just kidding. It's turning into a confessional here. Why did you stand in line at Franklin Barbecue in Austin, Texas? Because your husband made you? No, no, I actually did it entirely of my own volition when he was not even present with me because I'm a believer in food. And I think that, you know, when you go someplace and there's something that

is iconic that's there, you go and you try it and you taste it and you appreciate it. And I trust you had a very good meal there, even though it's not your first choice. Right. So, Emily, you ate all over Austin. You had this wonderful barbecue, but it's not really your thing. But, Eric, I mean, how do you respond? Is this your thing? You like making brisket.

I would eat brisket every day of the week if I could. Okay. When you're fixing to make a brisket, you're not just trying to make Emily upset. Correct. That is true. So if one were to venture to a barbecue restaurant establishment here in the Columbus area, you're going to pay somewhere around $20 a pound. And you can purchase just plain brisket for much, much less than that. You want to eat brisket economically and you feel you can do it yourself.

And you have been doing it yourself. Is that correct? That is true, yes. I have smoked 17 briskets. 17 briskets in what, 17 days? We've had the smoker for about three years now. Oh, okay. And I've already had a look

at your voluminous photographic evidence. You know, Emily sent in three photos. You sent in a number that is greater than 22, because we got you to winnow it down to 22. And most of those photos are photos of meats that you have smoked. And I'm going to tell you right now, Eric, they look delicious. You know, I looked at them too. They looked really nice. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

That's incredible. High praise. Fantastic. But, you know, you sent in more than you had to. But when you say a smoker, I'm going to blow the heavy ceramic lid off of this charade and just say, you're talking about a big green egg smoker. It's a Kamado ceramic Japanese style cooker that is sold primarily United States by the brand called Big Green Egg because they look like big green eggs.

And I am pretty convinced that you are a secret representative of Big Green Egg. Trying to get some buzz marketing all over my podcast here, but I'll allow it because I have one of these things and they're good. Yeah, I got one too. It's dope. I also have one. Aaron, you have one as well? Yeah, totally.

Turns out we're just a bunch of eggheads. Yeah. And not only that, but I have a whole brisket in a freezer back up in Maine that I'm returning to shortly and I've got to smoke a brisket on a big green egg. So here's my secret agenda. I want to figure out how to do it correctly since it remains to be seen, Eric, whether you're doing it right or wrong. And that's kind of why I scammed this whole thing together. So everyone gets something out of this. So let's talk about your process on the big green egg. How do you do it? How do you smoke a brisket on a big green egg? Typically, I smoke whole packers. So it's two cuts in one. It's the point in the flat. It typically gets purchased on either Wednesday or Thursday. It gets trimmed and then it gets rubbed and wrapped, usually for 24 to 48 hours. And then it goes on the smoker. I usually bank on somewhere between 45 minutes to an hour per pound. on somewhere between 45 minutes to an hour per pound.

In earlier briskets, I was doing spice rubs and different mixes and stuff. I have since moved to just a salt and pepper rub. Yeah, that's that Aaron Franklin influence on you. A hundred percent, yeah. Aaron, let's say I'm a listener to Judge John Hodgman, who had not read your book or followed how Texas brisket is smoked. I don't understand anything that guy just said. What's he talking about? A point and a flat and a packer and a wrapped and rubbed and all of that? Can you explain what Eric just said to me as though I were but a little child? So a brisket is beef,

comes from a cow. And a packer cut is kind of what they call at the grocery store, just a plain brisket. And a brisket has two pectoral muscles. One is called the point. It's a little fattier. It's more like a ribeye kind of texture. The lower part, which is more the muscle that goes over the ribs, is a lot leaner and it's called the flat. So some people call it first cut, second cut. Some people call it point. Some people have a bunch of different names for it. But Packer Cut is really like the industry kind of name for it from the grocery store. And really one muscle doesn't cook proper without the other. So it's kind of hard to split them up.

Yeah, you're definitely doing it right on that. But they do get split up all the time. I mean, when I go into a grocery store, I see something labeled brisket. There is no point. There is just a flat. You've seen that before, right? Yeah, totally. And really, what's the point?

Hey, let me point out that I happen to know that Aaron is a family man. He has a child, which makes him a weird dad full of buns. That's right. I've got dad jokes for days. I mean, at the grocery store, a lot of times you would rarely see just the point, the fattier one. I think most people grind those up into burgers and stuff like that. But you do see a lot of flats. And usually that would be something that you might smoke, cure, maybe pastrami, corned beef, something along those lines. You might braise it for Hanukkah.

Yeah, totally. But I think from my experience, and a lot of guys that cook on, and gals, that cook on the big green eggs, I think just because sometimes they're smaller, and gals that cook on the big green eggs, I think just because sometimes they're smaller, do actually cook just the flat. But in my experience, I don't think one muscle cooks proper without the other one. Right. And it is becoming easier to get a whole brisket, a full brisket with both the point and the flat, both muscles than it once was. Definitely. I mean, I think people everywhere really are starting to kind of know what brisket is, which is pretty cool. Yeah. So, okay. Now, what did he say about rubbing and wrapping it and then putting it away for 24 hours?

Tell me what that process is. And by the way, if you heard him doing anything wrong, you should say so because I'm judging him. So I am a little bit curious, though. Why do you season it a day ahead and wrap it up? I have found that leaving the salt on helps to tenderize. And that's kind of just my go-to even when I do, when I do any type of barbecue smoked pork butts or ribs or anything like that, I will typically rub and wrap the day before. That is not your process, Aaron, at the barbecue?

No, it's not my process. And I will tell you why. So an experiment that I did a long time ago was to salt and pepper our briskets the night before because it would save on prep time. It didn't really work out very well for us. And what I learned very quickly is that in this, you know, we actually have an experiment in the steak book about salting meat for, you know, eight hours, 12 hours, 24, 48, and so forth. But what I learned on pre salting large pieces of meat is that it drew out a lot of moisture. And then I had a hard time getting a bark because the outside of the surface was so wet that it took a lot of evaporative cooling to overcome that moisture content on the surface. So it kind of affected the bark in a

strange way. And it also kind of felt like it tightened up the texture a little bit, almost like a cure a little bit. But, yeah, you know, everybody's got their preference for sure. And there's no right or wrong way to do that. So I definitely don't think that side of it calculates to too much. In bark, you mean the deep mahogany crust that forms in a probably smoked. Yeah, the crusty exterior that's hopefully pretty delicious. Let's take a quick recess and hear about this week's Judge John Hodgman sponsor. We'll be back in just a moment on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.

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Rules and restrictions apply. Court is back in session. Let's get back to the courtroom for more justice. So you've done 17 briskets and everyone, I'm sure, is a little bit different because even though this is a big rudimentary cut of meat, as Aaron has alluded to, there's a lot of fine tuning that can be done to get it just right. So which was your best brisket? Which was your worst brisket? I can tell you my worst brisket for sure was the first time that I attempted a prime brisket, a birthday brisket. Since it was a prime birthday, I tried a prime brisket.

And I think that it just cooked differently. My smoker was too hot. It was dry. It was not good. And then I would say that my two most recent briskets have been among my best. That tracks that your skills have improved. What would you say has made all the difference between worst first and latest greatest? So I've stopped tinkering with the temperature on the big green egg so much.

I kind of get it set. I let it stabilize at a temperature for about an hour, and then I put the meat on. And then once the meat is on, I use a thermometer to track the internal temperature. And then I don't check it again until I kind of start to hit numbers that I'm looking for for internal temperatures. So you've got a probe thermometer into the meat to get the internal temperature. So you've got a probe thermometer into the meat to get the internal temperature. And then you also have the built-in oven thermometer, as it were, for the big green egg that you're monitoring as well? Correct. And then there's a third thermometer that actually goes on the grate level.

And that way I can track both the dome temperature and also the temperature where the meat itself is down closer to the grate. Oh, boy. Dome temperature. This is good stuff. This is very good stuff. Are you liking what you're hearing here? I'm starting to roll my eyes a little bit, but maybe this is great. Well, you know, I'm taking notes.

Uh-huh. Okay. By the way, why did I even ask you how many briskets you've done? Because I could have just looked at this spreadsheet you sent me documenting every cook you've ever done since 2013. That is true. And what I was trying to call out there is that it's not just briskets that I do on the big green egg.

There's a ton of steaks. There's a lot of ribs. There's a fair amount of pork butts. I make a thing called an armadillo egg. Yeah, what's that? I saw that on there. So an armadillo egg is a jalapeno pepper that gets stuffed with cream cheese

and then usually cheddar or Colby Jack. And then that gets wrapped in a bratwurst patty. And then that gets wrapped in bacon. And then that gets smoked with applewood and pecan for three to four hours, flipped halfway through, glazed with barbecue sauce, and then sliced into little rings, like little sushi rolls. So it's like a Texas scotch egg. Yeah.

Yeah. That hugged and kissed with a jalapeno popper. Exactly. Yep. They're delicious. Who invented the armadillo egg? Is this an Eric special? So I have a mentor, I guess, is maybe the best word for it.

There's a gentleman that's a mutual friend of ours who barbecues probably five days a week. He does a lot of ribs. Boy, I wonder what his wife is thinking. They're both in food service. They own a pizza shop in town and she works for a local restaurant group. So like their whole life is about food. Well, the one thing we don't allow is naming of restaurants in towns. So whatever you do, don't say the name of your friend's restaurant or say it. Bexley Pizza Plus. In Columbus, Ohio? In Columbus, Ohio. Yep. Just outside in Bexley.

All right. Okay. So your mentor, what were you going to say about your mentor? Oh, just that this was a recipe that I had picked up from him. And he's kind of been, he's a go-to resource. He does some more experimental stuff. He just does a lot more barbecuing than what I do. Last couple of procedural questions before we turn back to the poor and now understandably suffering Emily. What's the internal temperature you're trying to get?

What I'm looking for is for the stall to start. So I typically want it to be somewhere around 150 is when I will start checking on it. And then what will happen is somewhere between 160 and 175. I can break it down for you that the meat essentially starts to sweat, which causes it to evaporate, which causes it to actually lose temperature. And it will sit at that stall for hours on end. So I want to know when that stall happens. And then so I can establish what the temperature is. So let's say it stalls at 168. I would then set my thermometer to let me know when it hits 172. And that way, when it's done stalling, it gets wrapped in butcher paper, and then it finishes off until it hits an internal somewhere when it's done stalling, it gets wrapped in butcher paper and then it finishes

off until it hits an internal somewhere when it's ready, usually somewhere between 188 and 195. Sounds like you've read a book. The stall, Aaron, is that what's happening with the stall? This is this period of time where the brisket stops gaining temperature and actually loses temperature. Do I understand that correctly? Yeah, that is understood correctly. And so, so far, this procedure all sounds solid to you, Aaron? No major errors on his part? Yeah, yeah. I think all the basic bullet points are totally there. How long does the stall last and why is it different? Well, just like people, every animal is a little bit different. So some briskets conduct heat a

little bit differently. You know, you've got some different climate stuff going on. You've got different fires. Every time you cook, it's always a little bit different. But with a stall, sometimes if you know it's coming, you can kind of bump up the temperatures to get some more momentum. If you're not cooking real hot, if you're not cooking real fast, a stall could take hours and hours and hours to get through. So Emily, how does it feel to be trapped in a conversation where three dudes are just talking about barbecue esoterica nonstop. Is that fun for you? Oh, yeah.

Have you ever experienced it before? Yeah. No, it feels like a lot of evenings over at our friend Brad's house and, you know, kind of some other barbecue events that we've done. Yeah, it feels about par for the course. Sounds terrible. I was just picturing you sitting there in the studio in Ohio. I'm like, oh, Emily, now I understand exactly why. When brisket enters the conversation, even as a notion,

it's automatically nerve grading. Yeah. Because you know what's coming. A lot of thinking, planning and obsession. Yes. Tedium. Boy, tedium is right. And I apologize to all the Judge John Hodgman listeners who were not wrapped at that. I know that some of you were. So Emily, explain to me and explain as well to Eric why this bugs you. It's just a lot goes into cooking a brisket. And both Eric and I are big food people and respect a lot of different types of food and what it takes to make all of those types of food. And so it's not about the brisket or the barbecue specifically. It's just everything that has to go into it.

I know there's a lot and we don't always have, you know, kind of the time and energy to get into that when we're doing these events and hosting people at our house. And there are so many alarms going off in our house. And we have to kind of plan everything around when things are going to maybe happen with the brisket, but we're not 100% sure when they're going to happen with the brisket because the brisket's going to tell us. So we just have to wait and see and figure everything else out around these unknowns. How long a process is it from the first threat of a brisket to

the service of the brisket? I mean, we do know about the rubbing and wrapping a day before. Okay, there's that. But once that brisket finally goes into the green egg and it's shut, what time of day or night is that? And when do you anticipate it being done? Ballpark. or night is that? And when do you anticipate it being done? Ballpark. So it's varied a little bit. I feel like on average, we have like cook times like eight to 12 hours. And I mean, we've had briskets that have gone on the fire, like in the middle of the night. And I'm never awake for that. But Eric is up and he says, you know, I'm going to get the brisket on at like 2am or whatever time he's going to put the brisket on. And sometimes briskets have gone on just like early morning, 6 or 8 a.m. as we're kind of getting a day started. So it's ranged a little

bit. And is this why Eric has alarms on his phone, presumably that are keyed to like the dome thermometer and the meat thermometer and the grill thermometer, because he needs to be woken up in the middle of the night if it hits a temperature and he needs to spring into action? No, the alarms on the phone happen regardless. And they're just purely time-based alarms. Like he just wants to check it at certain time intervals. The thermometer alarm does its own thing with the temperatures, totally independent of all the phone alarms. Aside from these briskets, do you have any actual children that you need to take care of?

We do not have any human children. We just only have fur children. Just fur children and Eric's brisket babies? That is correct. And how often does this go down? How often does a brisket baby get born in your house? So I think we're up to four so far this year. And people come over and eat them?

Or does Eric just go into a quiet brisket eating dome and eat it himself? He would do that. Usually it is centered, though, around people coming over. A couple of times it has happened. I think the most recent brisket did happen kind of on a surprise to me. And at the time we had only two planned guests for that dinner. So there were four total people to consume a brisket. So kind of last minute we were inviting a lot of people over to our house uh to kind of up that guest count and help spread that out a little bit there's nothing more gracious than a host going hey you've got a stomach right get over here i just need someone to eat some brisket are you

we really love you we mean it in case the context wasn't clear i have no interest in seeing you whatsoever or else i would have called otherwise. But you can digest some of this food that I made. And sometimes not even that happens. Now, Emily, you sent in some evidence. And of course, all of the evidence, including the many, many, many photos of meat that Eric sent in, among them are three simple photos that you sent in. And they'll all be available on the Judge John Hodgman page at MaximumFun.org as well as on our Instagram account, Instagram.com slash Judge John

Hodgman. The first is a nice photo of your backyard and you have a garage bar. Have you turned your garage into a bar? Partially. So yeah, we actually have turned our entire half of our basement into our primary bar, which we refer to as the banana stand. And that there's always money in the banana stand. There's always money in the banana stand. Yeah. And about 400 bottles of unique spirits. And so this last summer, I had an opportunity to pick up another freestanding bar. So I bought that and Eric helped me put it up on wheels. And so it wheels around our garage and it is Lucille to the patio bar. And you're in Columbus, Ohio. We are. You know, I don't want to brag, but I was recently in Columbus, Ohio.

You are. For the honor of losing the James Thurber Prize for American humor. You should have just come over for a cocktail. Well, had I only known you have hundreds of bottles of rare spirits in your basement, I would still be in there now. I'd be walled in like the cask of Amontillado. You're welcome anytime. And you only have brisket babies and fur babies. Do you think you're going to have children at some point?

Nope. That's not in the cards for us. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm sorry to sound so enthusiastic, but yeah. We made that choice and we're happy where we're at. I love my children a lot. And I know, Jesse, you and Aaron love your respective children's a lot.

But if you decide not to have children, guess what? You get to have two different bars and a backyard just for friends to come over and eat your brisket babies. And look at the big green egg there in its shrine over to the left of your garage bar. It's got a whole pagoda over it. It's really intense. This is what you can pay attention to when you don't have children. Yeah, it's modeled exactly after the one my dad built for himself in Wisconsin. And it's beneficial, too. We do all-weather smoking, so it can rain or snow. I will not be deterred. Well, and here is a photo of, I guess, Emily, your dad and mom in front of their big green egg.

Yep, that's their great big green egg. Yep. That's their great big green egg. Which is a super big one. Uh-huh. And he's got his own pagoda over it. And he's got some big green egg Christmas lights decorated around it. Little light up big green eggs on a string light. And he's wearing an adorable weird dad apron that says tender, succulent and naturally aged.

Yes. And how did the big green egg come into your and Eric's life? So Dan had purchased the large big green egg and then at some point established that he wanted a bigger one. So he had purchased a second big green egg. And then at some point, Pam convinced him that he should not have two smokers. So he gifted the one to us shortly after we bought our house. And I like to tell people that it's the second best thing he ever gave me. Ah, gotcha. He didn't give you his daughter, you understand. She's a whole human being

with agency. She's not equivalent to a smoker, Eric. Well, see, my take on that was that he gifted you a brisket once. Emily, does your dad do a brisket in the Big Green Egg, or is this just an Eric thing? I think my dad said he has maybe done maybe one or two briskets, maybe, in the Big Green Egg. And he ultimately found it was just not his thing. It was too finicky for him. And my dad does like such a range of other things. If he's going to smoke a big piece of meat and the big green egg, he's probably

going to do a pork butt. So you're saying, Emily, that your father is a well-rounded, non-obsessive person who has a healthy relationship with the big green egg, unlike Eric, who is driven to distraction. Yes, I would say that that's true. You ever see the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind? Well, I have not. I have, absolutely, yeah. I know what you're picturing right there. Yep, yep.

When Richard Dreyfuss starts getting visions in his head of Devil's Tower in Colorado, where the aliens are going to land, and he just throws his family out of the house so he can make a giant devil's tower out of mud in his living room or whatever. I wish you had seen the movie, Emily, because I'm wondering if that's what the situation is here. Do you lose your husband when he goes into brisket land? Eric makes an effort to be present. He really does. I think he tries very hard to balance the brisket and other things, other requests that I might make of him.

It's just a challenge. It's hard to overcome. One of the things that I've tried to be better about on the Judge John Hodgman podcast, when it comes to curtailing people's hobbies and interests for the benefit of a friendship or a marriage or a relationship, is that the person who's bringing the complaint has to have standing. They have to be able to prove or at least claim some damages, some way in which this is a detriment to your life, Emily, or your lives as a couple. What are the damages? There's a preponderance of leftovers involved in smoking a brisket for us and kind of the disruption that that causes

in our general meal planning, which is already a little bit challenging for just a household of two. It's kind of hard to shop and cook for that small of a group. And then when one person is just eating brisket for weeks on end, makes it a little harder. So there's that element to it. And then I would say, you know, kind of my other top, you know, damages issue is the issue of sides. If a brisket is happening for entertaining purposes, I'm a big believer in, you know, like a nice meal with a great narrative and, you know, sides and entree that go together. And with briskets, like I get the point that barbecue is not supposed to be about the sides. So I don't always love the barbecue sides. I probably don't put forth my best effort when doing that kind of meal planning. And I just think it makes for not the greatest experience for our guests either.

What are some of your top sides? When doing a brisket? Yeah. We've got like a nice picnic bean recipe that comes from my mom. And we've been really trying to play around with some mac and cheeses because I really am insistent on a very creamy mac and cheese. But we've been trying to do it like in a cast iron also on the egg. What's a picnic bean?

Oh, so it's a really lovely compilation of a variety of different types of beans in essentially a homemade ketchup-based barbecue sauce with extra bacon tossed in and baked in the oven. It's a delight. Those are very traditional barbecue sides, but you say you don't like the barbecue sides, even though it sounds like you and your mom are going down an Eric style path of obsession with this macaroni and cheese. I would venture to say that one could call my obsession with like Midwest potluck foods tantamount to Eric's obsession with barbecue and brisket. I just want to live at your houses. Aaron Franklin, what sides go with brisket? You know, down in the middle of Texas, it really is mostly about the meat.

At Franklin Barbecue, we have beans, potato salad, and coleslaw. But really for sides for smoky meats, you know, I typically go with something that's a little bit brighter, more acidic, veggies, like kind of pickled vegetables and stuff like that. Big fan of salads. But I think kind of it really just doesn't matter. I mean, if it's good, it's good. Yeah, you want something to cut the richness of a properly barbecued brisket for sure.

What's your favorite side to make not to do with barbecue, Emily? Ambrosia salad. Kind of hands down. Like I just go straight back to the 1950s, like a good old ambrosia salad. Whoa. I feel like we need a trifle. And you say you live in Columbus, Ohio. The pieces just aren't adding up.

I mean, I was raised in Wisconsin. For the listener who may not know, how would you describe ambrosia salad? who may not know, how would you describe ambrosia salad? Oh, so ambrosia salad is just a magical combination of usually canned fruit cocktail and those colorful miniature marshmallows, maraschino cherries, and coconut, desiccated coconut. And then it's usually like whipped together in an old school, you know, air, salad dressing of cool whip and sour cream usually is the mix. Aaron Franklin, I'm going to ask you a question before I go into my chambers and consider my verdict. Four briskets in seven months. Does that seem like a lot to you or about right or not enough? I think it seems about right i look back at when

i first started making brisket and we would have one big backyard barbecue every summer and i would try to cook as much food as possible but really you know our thing started off about the same way just getting up at two in the morning putting a brisket on staying up all night doing this thing and all these complaints are well they sound pretty familiar um they they i still hear them actually all the time um my wife has banned me from cooking whole hogs in our backyard it will never never happen again but uh yeah i mean i i think four briskets in the year so far is pretty good. It seems like there's some other things going on, like, you know, like some detail management and maybe being a little more obsessive. You know, I definitely have some thoughts.

What are those thoughts? You know, so that how obsessive you are about cooking the brisket and all that stuff and trying to dial it in where it doesn't necessarily have the variables. It's got alarms and all these things. It seems like maybe it might be acceptable to try to rely on yourself more and maybe almost like train yourself where you have more of a feel like a natural kind of sixth sense for this kind of thing. You can just kind of wake up and feel that you need to go check the brisket or whatever. That might be a suggestion. That way it doesn't seem to be, you know, like such a big to do. You just kind of be super casual about it.

Like, yeah, I'm going to cook a brisket. It'll be done in 12 hours. Yeah, whatever. You know, maybe kind of downplay those, you know, the obsession a little bit or maybe just keep it to yourself. I know that kind of stuff has helped me in the past. But then I think about the sides and, you know, it seems like maybe you guys might be able to nerd out together, um, and then just plan instead of like one brisket, four people coming over, maybe just plan like one backyard barbecue in the summer or something kind of similar to what, what Stacy and I used to do. Um, that way you both can get excited about it. Both actually do the meal

planning and menu development together. And then it becomes more of a fun thing where there's not the pressure or the burden. I think those are all very good pieces of advice. Eric, does that mean anything to you? And when Aaron Franklin tells you to chill out on your alarms, how do you feel? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think I do hear the alarm commentary. And I would argue that it has gotten better. More recently, there was a time when I was getting up every 20 to 30 minutes to check to make sure that my smoker temperature was still where I wanted it to be. And the last couple I've gotten to the point

to where I just trust that when my internal alarm dings at me is when I need to go out and take a look at it. Emily, if I were to rule in your favor, what would you have me rule? I would have you rule a set number of briskets, a suggested number of briskets in any given year time. And my suggestion was going to be one brisket per quarter. A brisket for all seasons.

A brisket for all seasons. I think it's appropriate and could definitely get on board with like a larger event that's a little more planned and has kind of some more pieces to it. more planned and has kind of some more pieces to it. And then in addition, you know, as kind of back payment, I'd like to be given the opportunity to request a non-smoked grilled item once per month ongoing. Eric, before I ask what you're ruling, I just want to dial back on one thing here. One of the pieces of evidence that Emily submitted is evidence of frozen leftovers of not just brisket, but all other kinds of smoked barbecue experiments that are just keeping space in the freezer. How much of this is serving food to people you love and how much of this is just your hobby? I would say it's 60-40 and I won't say which one is the 60. Yes, you will.

The 60 is my hobby for sure. The 40% is having other people come over and sharing that with people for sure. All right. I appreciate your honesty. What would you have me rule if I were to rule in your favor? Well, I think if the ask is to just grill more frequently, I'm happy to accommodate that. But I do think that if I want to smoke a brisket that I ought to be able and allowed to smoke a brisket. A man should be able to smoke a brisket when he wants.

That's your contention, Eric. That's right. All right. I think I've heard everything I need to in order to come to a verdict. I'm going to go into my perfectly smoky 221 degree chamber, and I'll be back in 8 to 12 hours with my decision. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Eric, how are you feeling about your chances in the case?

I feel good. I feel good. I think it's reasonable to assume that one should be able to smoke a brisket when they feel like it. I like the panel that we've got here. I like that you guys all have big green eggs and that you all enjoy barbecue. Emily, how are you feeling? You know, for some of the reasons Eric mentioned, I feel a little less confident, but hopeful that less smoky and cooler heads will prevail. Do you ever make like buttermilk biscuits? I love buttermilk biscuits. Oh, yes. I do a pretty good buttermilk biscuits? I love buttermilk biscuits. Oh, yes.

I do a pretty good buttermilk biscuit. You are an amazing cook. That goes good with barbecue. Just saying, when I come over for the brisket, it would be awesome if there was some buttermilk biscuits. We can make that happen for you. Well, we'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say about all this when we come back in just a second.

Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience, one you have no choice but to embrace because, yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-R. Hmm.

Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, call S-T-O-P-P-P-A-D-I.

It'll never fit. No, it will. Let me try. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-P-D-C-O-O. Ah, we are so close. Stop podcasting yourself. A podcast from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, and you're on the go. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman re-enters the courtroom and presents his binding verdict.

The only perfection available to you without compromise is that of intention and effort. If you endeavor to be the best pencil sharpener you can be and tailor your actions accordingly, you can be certain all else will be forgiven. In the final accounting, David Reese from his book, How to Sharpen Pencils, which is both a practical guide to sharpening pencils and a meditation on both the pleasures and the dangers of seeking perfection in life, whether that is a perfectly sharpened pencil or a perfectly smoked brisket. Smoking a brisket is one of the dumbest, most rudimentary things you can do. You start a fire, you put the dead muscle near the fire and you wait and wait and wait and wait. As Aaron

Franklin rightly pointed out, there are lots and lots of variables that will affect the outcome, not just time and temperature, but wind flow, air quality, humidity, whether you pre-salt for an hour or pre-salt for a day, whatever it is. The mania that can accompany all of those small adjustments speak to certain minds. And my mind is one of them. Like, there is such a strong pull from this conversation that I want to go through this microphone and like the atom from the DC Comics universe, travel through the phone lines to your house in Columbus and start smoking a brisket with you right now, Eric. I want to wire up those thermometers. I want

to check out your rig. I want to see how you are trying to do this simple thing in the most complicated way possible. I want to see what you're doing to try to coax a kind of sublime beauty out of this hard, difficult, rudimentary cut of meat. Because once you've had a great brisket, if you are a carnivore, once you've had a great brisket, like the ones that you can get consistently at Franklin Barbecue, it's like sometimes it's the only thing you can think about. And it's so easy to go wrong. And it's so amazing when it goes right. This dumb, simple thing that is also a lesson in complexity, both its power and its danger. Because you can get lost in all of those timers and all those small decisions and all those minor adjustments. You know, the one time that I did do a brisket, and unfortunately it was only a flat that was available to me up in Maine, I did it on the egg and I had to get up at three o'clock in the morning

and I was lost to my family for the entire day because that's all I could think about was how's the temperature? Is the timing right? When is this going to get done? was how's the temperature is the timing right when is this going to get done and will it be done in time for my guests and somewhere around the time of the stall when the brisket sort of stops cooking in the same way and kind of just sits there lost in its own void waiting to be coaxed out of it by time and temperature and willpower, your willpower. I stalled too. And my brain stopped remembering that guests were even a factor in this. I stopped remembering that the rest of the world existed. I did not care about my guests. I did not care about my own family. All I cared about was this thing. That's not a great place to be.

If you care about other human beings, that is. That is a place where you are lost to the people who care about you to a certain degree, right? That's why Emily is upset. That's why Aaron Franklin's wife has banned whole hog smoking, among other reasons, I presume, in the backyard. And so I am sympathetic to Emily because cooking is an act of generosity, typically. But certain kinds of cooking, smoking a brisket is an act of obsession as well, you know, and that has to be in balance. I think Aaron Franklin's advice to you, which you got into immediately, and you know, you can feel it like, just chill out, get a more intuitive feel for the timing.

And also maybe simplify a little bit instead of making like where you have to trim two days in advance, you have to season it one day in advance. Maybe just do all that stuff right when you put it on and try to not cut any corners, but maybe try to simplify the whole thing. So then you can work on the details that really matter. Remember the advice of Aaron Franklin's father, which is, I don't know, cook it till it's done. I mean, people were smoking briskets long, long before probe thermometer technology was as advanced as it is today. Long and not one that takes you so far out of the world as really obsessive brisketting can do from time to time. far out of the world as really obsessive brisketting can do from time to time.

And also acknowledge, I think, that you're not doing this for other people. That's the thing. I look at those freezer packages of old brisket ends. I hear the story of you basically press ganging people into coming to your house to eat this food because you didn't know exactly how much meat you had coming. because you didn't know exactly how much meat you had coming. I think you should acknowledge that the brisket is 60% for you and 40% for others. And with that in mind, I would say you should not serve brisket to your friends more than four times a year. You may have a brisket party, one per season, and you will let

all the people know that they're going to have to come with their appetites and that ambrosia salad will be served. Because you want to remember that you're not just doing this for yourself, you're doing it for other people. And if people know that there's a brisket coming every season, they'll want to be there. That'll be fun. But this sort of impulsive brisketing is the kind of relationship with brisketing that feels a little unhealthy, like where you get the obsession and you go have to do it.

And even though you know that it bothers Emily, you're going to do it anyway. That's what you have to be careful about here. Because Emily is saying, I need my husband around. I love entertaining, but I like to entertain with some intention and I want to make some ambrosia salad and some other things. And I want more grilled things. You should be listening to her when she says these things.

Now, since we acknowledge that brisketting is at least 60% a calling more than it is an opportunity to entertain. I'm going to allow you a certain number of secret brisket babies. Brisket experiment time. Let's say three more. No, you know what? I'm going to give you four side hustle briskets just for experimenting on. No one's coming over. Maybe it's a weekend where Emily is going out of town for some reason. I want you to enjoy your hobby, but I don't want you to confuse yourself that it is for

any other purpose than to feed your curiosity and your interest. You will have now four extra private times to practice your brisket and get it better and better and better. And I guarantee Emily that by the time he does these four public and four private briskets in a 12-month space starting now, he's going to follow Aaron Franklin's advice,

get chill about it. It's going to become a second nature. He's going to follow Aaron Franklin's advice, get chill about it. It's going to become a second nature. He's going to perfect it. And he's going to be less of a weirdo about it in the future. Once he's got it perfect, he'll want to do it less. That's my guess. If he ever does it more, let me know. And those four secret briskets, by the way, give them to a church or something. Give it to a friend. Or even save the leftovers, maybe make tamales or something like that. Take them to work, give them out for free. There's all kinds of great ways to get rid of food.

Yeah, share that stuff with people. Don't just let it sit in your freezer. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Emily, how do you feel about four public briskets and four private briskets? I feel pretty great about that.

I think four public briskets is going to make for some really wonderful parties and events at our house. And I can totally get behind helping out with really great and interesting sides for four known briskets. And I travel a fair amount for work. So Eric will have plenty of time to do his private briskets on his own. Eric, how are you feeling? I think that sounds great. I think doing the four private briskets and then having the four public is something I can get on board with. Emily, Eric, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. Thank you.

And our thanks to you, Aaron Franklin. Thanks a ton for having me. Yeah, Aaron. So tell me about the masterclass. That's something I didn't understand exactly. Yeah. So masterclass is a website that does really awesome, super detailed classes. And I did one on cooking barbecue. Well, actually there's some vegetables and other stuff in there too, but yeah, it's like a four and a half hour course. I believe it's masterclass.com. Super duper cool. Really excited about it.

Well, I also thank you, Aaron Franklin. I look forward to seeing you in Austin on October 26th for the Austin Book Festival. See you there. I hope to come by and say hello to you. And also, I got a lot of good tips for doing brisket on a big green egg today, but I might contact you via side channels

to get some more tips and tricks if you don't mind. And I'll let you and all the listeners of Judge John Hodgman know what happened. I like it. Another Judge John Hodgman case in the books. Coming up in just a minute, swift justice. But first, our thanks to Will Beecher, Daniel Gilbert and Emily Joanne Holosek for naming this week's episode The Smoking Pun. If you'd like to name a future episode like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook, we regularly put out our calls for submissions there. You can follow us on Twitter at Jesse Thorne and at Hodgman. Hashtag your Judge John Hodgman tweets.

Hashtag JJHO. I always enjoy checking out what people are saying about the latest Judge Sean Hodgman case. And you can check out the MaxFun subreddit to chat about the case. That's at MaximumFun.reddit.com. We're also on Instagram where we like to share evidence for our cases at Judge John Hodgman. I'm sure there'll be some evidence from this case on that feed. evidence from this case on that feed. And this week's episode was recorded by Eric French at WOSU Public Media in Columbus, Ohio, and David Alvarez at KUT in Austin, Texas. Our producer is Jennifer Marmer. Now, Swift Justice, where we answer your small disputes with a quick judgment.

Judge Hodgman, are you ready for justice? I am ready. Andrew asks, is a Snuggie a robe or a blanket? I think it's a robe. My co-workers think it's a blanket. It doesn't have to be one or the other, right? This goes back to the hot dog thing. It can be its own thing. You do not have to put everything into a category.

Snuggie is a Snuggie, which is to say it is the bread in a human hot dog sandwich. The end. That's it for this week's episode. Submit your cases at MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho or email Hodgman at MaximumFun.org. Remember, no case is too small. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast. MaximumFun.org

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