Judge John Hodgman - The Waiting Game

Episode Date: May 8, 2014

Mollie says that her husband Geoff spends way too much time on his turns during board games, plotting the perfect move to crush his opponents. Should Geoff hurry up?

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, the waiting game. Molly files suit against her husband Jeff. She says Jeff can be overly competitive when he's playing board games, and he takes his sweet time plotting the perfect move to crush his opponents. She wants Jeff to get a move on. Jeff says playing the game means doing it right and taking the time to do so. Who's right? Who's wrong? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. How long is a reasonable time to play a hand of Scrabble? Casual game between friends should have no limit because, come on, it's not that big a deal.

Read a magazine or something. If it's sincerely a problem you can decide on the rules beforehand, you can also, for that matter, hack into Scrabble a variety of ways, permitting proper names as long as they are rock bands, allowing people to look up two-letter words, not forcing challenged words to lose a turn. You can customize Scrabble however you like, because it's just a dumb game meant to make our alcoholism seem fun and smart and to distract us from the idea that we are slowly dying. Bailiff Jesse Thorne, swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever?

I do. Sounds good to me. so help you God or whatever? I do. Sounds good to me. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that it takes him, frankly, no time at all to think of the perfect move in almost every game?

That makes it even better. I do. Ditto. Very well, Judge Hodgman. First of all, I do not like this at all. Jeff, sounds good to me. Ditto. Where do you think we are? On the quad?

You think we're hanging out? You think we're having class outside on the quad today? This is a courtroom I wish we were It's been, you know We've had a break of sun here You're too Too informal, Jeff I don't know what kind of game you're playing, but the game I am playing is show this fake internet court a little respect, sir.

I am holding you in contempt. Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. You're in fake court jail boy I lost this argument pretty quick

be quiet you do not get a chance to guess not that you ever would have the source of the cultural reference that I quoted directly in this case as I entered the courtroom first of all Molly you may be seated Jeff you remain standing

in the dock. Molly, you may be seated. Thank you. For an immediate summary judgment in your favor, and your favor alone, can you guess or do you know the source of the cultural reference

that I quoted directly as I entered the courtroom? Hint, though I quoted directly as I entered the courtroom. Hint, though I wish I had wrote it, it was not me. You know, I usually get probably half of your cultural references, but this one has me absolutely stumped. I have no idea. Is 50% really? You're a high level player. Thereabouts, yeah. Which was the one that you were, I'm not going to give you a chance to brag, which is the one that you were you were i'm not gonna give you a chance to brag which is the one that you wish you had gotten um the one that haunts you well uh let me

think i don't know about ones that haunts me but the one that i was the most excited about was the the groucho marx libyatooed Lady. So I knew that immediately. Yeah, because you saw The Fisher King? Well, that and I'm a huge Marx Brothers fan, and my daughter wants to marry Groucho Marx. Well... No, wait, Harpo. She wants to marry Harpo Marx. Both of those are a little gross.

I mean, it doesn't really matter which one it is. It would have been gross even if they were not dead. Even if they were not dead. Even if they were not corpses. It would have been gross because they're old men. She does have questionable taste. How many Marx Brothers can you name? I can name four. I don't know the answer.

Right. Well, no, you can do better than that. I can definitely name four, and I know there's a fifth. Go ahead. Groucho, Harpo, Chico, and Zeppo. First of all, it's Chico, not Chico. Did you know that? Sorry.

You're right. I didn't know that. He was so good at chasing the chicks. That's what Groucho said. But who knew? And Zeppo, you said Zeppo. Yes. Gummo.

Gummo. He didn't perform. He didn't perform a lot. And there may have been another that I'm forgetting. Obviously, write to me at Hodgman at MaximumFun.org if there's a Marx brother, a verifiable Marx brother, who performed at one point or another. Not just another brother they had, but another member of the troupe. I think that there was – yeah, because I think they were originally called the five nightingales. So I think there's a fifth, but I,

well, we'll move on. Maybe that'll be for next week, but for this week, you're wrong. Didn't we, didn't we just name five? Oh,

go Harpo Groucho. Oh yeah. You're right. Gummo and Zeppa and Zeppa. That's five. But if there's a sixth out there, let me know the lost marks for there. Yeah.

Because, because, because Molly's daughter needs a husband. But if there's a sixth out there, let me know. The lost Marx brother. Yeah. Because Molly's daughter needs a husband. And may be willing to settle for Boppo Marx, who is only 107 years old. Yeah. How old is your daughter? 116? She is. She'll be seven next month. And is this Jeff's daughter as well, or just your daughter? She is. She'll be seven next month.

And is this Jeff's daughter as well or just your daughter? It is. It's both of our daughters. And are you married? We are. And how long have you been married? A million years. Come on now. No, seven years.

Seven years. Okay. And what are your ages? I am 33. And Jeff can't answer. He can't. Jeff is 37. Okay, good. And where do you live? We live in beautiful Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. What's going on there? Nothing. What do you do there? That's why we play so many board games. Oh, yeah. Jeff teaches at the college here, and I was a stay-at-home mom for many years, and now I'm attending the college here in the hopes of moving on. And are you his student? No.

Because that would be inappropriate. That would be as inappropriate as your daughter marrying the corpse of Harpo Marx. Yes, our interests are along very different paths. See how much easier this is, Jesse, without Jeff around? I'm just knocking these questions off. Now I'm getting the whole picture here and at no point does Jeff feel compelled to throw in a little wisecrack.

My legs are too tired to give a wisecrack. I hold you in contempt. Double contempt. Go back to jail. You'll get to talk, sir. Just chill, chill for a second. What are you studying? What is Jeff teaching?

I'm studying environmental science, and Jeff teaches journalism and communications. Okay, good. Cours de l'Aisne? Yes. So the cour, like French, the heart of Helen? Yes. Is that what it is?

The heart of needle. Heart of Kerr, like French, the heart of Helen? Yes. Is that what it is? The heart of needle. Heart of the all. Heart of the, spell the name of your town for me. A-W-L. Our town, C-O-E-U-R-D, apostrophe, A-L-E-N-E. Yeah. Sorry, I talked. Yeah.

Was that Jeff talking? That was Jeff talking. Now I'm already getting a good picture of how terrible it is to play board games with Jeff. Yes, thank you. Because he's a pet ant, and he's very detail-oriented, and he can't control himself. When he sees a move, he has to take it. But Molly, you can't guess the cultural reference in this case. I know that you can't because no one could.

Sorry, this game was rigged. Because it's an email that I received not 20 minutes ago from John Roderick, not 20 minutes ago from John Roderick, former guest bailiff of this court and current long winter troubadour purveyor of John Roderick's rendezvous and podcaster Roderick on the line with whom I played a game of Scrabble just last Saturday in which I timed John Roderick's moves. I got so bored as he sat there mulling his tile rack that I began timing how long it was taking him. I could not,

he tells me I should read a magazine. I was falling asleep. I think the longest I got was, I think he, I think he, he hit 18 minutes between moves. I know falling asleep. I think the longest I got was, I think he hit 18 minutes between moves. I know your pain. And here's the thing.

I understand why he did it. Because we were playing a game of Scrabble. We had not set out a rule in terms of the length of time. And I've never done, but after 18 minutes, he put together a bingo addition with the second D being a blank for 50 points and just won the game, emptied out the tile bag,

won the game and schooled us fools hard. I would have won. I would have won. I would have won. But I mean, this is the thing about Scrabble and some games, Molly, is that Scrabble is not a game that you play with somebody else. Scrabble is a game you are playing with yourself.

Scrabble is a game, uh, much like, uh, uh, the, the non-sports of, of running, of Ironman triathloning, of weightlifting.

These are the non-sports, the solitary pursuits of personal perfection, where you are trying to get the best score you ever had every time. And the person across the board is not someone you are playing with, or even someone you're playing against. It's just some consciousness that exists in order to give you enough friction to play off of so that you can get the best score of your life. Is that not right? Jeff, you may come out of jail now. Oh, I thank you very much. Yeah, I do agree with that assessment. And this is the crux of the issue here, because Jeff, you are playing at a high level and you take the game very seriously. You do not take the game as being something of fun. And so you play at your best level every time, even if it bores your wife. Is that not so, Jeff?

And so you play at your best level every time, even if it bores your wife. Is that not so, Jeff? Well, I play the game because it is fun, but I am driven to win the game. And as you stated earlier, I mean, I'm always constantly trying to get better. The main game we play now is called Ascension, and it's a point-driven game. You can win points by either killing monsters or buying cool stuff. And, you know know i'm always seeing how many points i can get in an average round so you know in a way i am competing against myself in previous games and other times at the same time trying to beat the people that i'm playing with

currently are you saying that you're so far ahead of the other players in your game that your only competition is yourself from past games that's not not true. No, because I mean, to give a good example, it's like another game we play is called Dominion. We don't play that anymore. Well, she won't play with me anymore. But I used to play it. And there was a guy we would go to the I would go to the game store every Thursday during the summer because I don't teach over the summer. And we would play Dominion and I'd play with a guy named Chris. And I brought my daughter, Viva's six and I actually she was five she was turning six the next day and her very first game you know and she won she beat me like I was not holding back you know I played my strategy she played her six-year-old beat us both you know and I mean

that's just the way it is so I'm not I don't consider myself this deity at the game that I'm completely unstoppable and beatable I have lost you know And that's sort of the point of the thing. When you beat me, it's an accomplishment. I do admit I am good, but I'm not perfect. So the victory means more when I am defeated. But you immediately started intense study of your daughter's playing methods so you could learn her game and keep this anomaly of you being beaten by her to a single digit,

and then you could crush her in the future in the game. Correct? Yes. No, that is not a correct answer. That's totally true. What game was it that she beat? Sir, please. What game?

This game is called Dominion. You dropped a lot of weird games in there for a second. So Dominion, first time she played, she had what is called beginner's luck. She didn't win the first time. It was the first time we brought her to the game store. It was the first time she was playing this other guy who had also never beat me. And then, you know, so he was really disheartened when a six-year-old came in and not only beat me, who's beat him several times, but also, you know. Is she the reincarnation of a great Dominion master of ancient Japan?

We can only hope. That's our goal for her. All right. What is the game? Ascension? Is that a card game or a tabletop board game? It is both. Is it a board game?

Kind of. It's a deck building game. So there is a board and there are cards on the board. And you start out with crappy cards in your hand and you buy better cards and you use those better cards to either kill monsters that are on the board or buy even better cards that are on the board. You buy cards that are on the board with money or you go on the internet and say, I need a rare double lotus. It's kind of like Magic the gathering you know so there's a common pool of um cards i've never i've never i've never played magic the gathering but at least i know what you're talking about molly why did you say when he said magic the gathering you went oh god

oh god he he used to play magic the gathering and I don't know, you know, the stereotype is I'm like, oh, God, I'm never going to live this down that I'm on a podcast talking about Magic the Gathering. This is Molly. This is all a result of choices that you've made in your life. This is very true. You married this nerd. You procreated with him. And now you agreed to be on a podcast with him. Yes. And sadly, it was even my idea to be on this podcast. It was your idea. And, you know, I don't think you're really in a position to complain. to be a stay-at-home mother while he was working as a professor at the university, a professor of

mana, which is a thing from Magic the Gathering. Oh, deep cut. Well, not even that deep, I suppose, for someone who knows the game. But that was good. I like that, Jesse. You got me. Thank you. I had that when I was 12. What was, all right, Jesse, what was the absolute best card you had in your Magic the Gathering deck? Because in Magic the Gathering, there are rare cards that are very powerful, and they are traded on an internet, not black market, gray market, open market. And you can buy them for anywhere between $25 and thousands of dollars. What was the rarest and best and most powerful card you had in your deck, Jesse? I have to say, Judge Hodgman,

it may have been the best card I had in my deck. It's definitely the only card besides, like, Forest, which I think is one of the cards, or Trees. I remember the Mono... Jeff nodding. It's Forest. It's Forest, okay. And then, like, Ocean and so on.

Like, each element was represented by a card sure but the only actual card that was like one of the guys in the game that i remember having is sarah angel but i remember it was very important to me at the time sarah is very good card is that a good card what was the what's the best card you own the royal assassin oh snap this dude got royal assassin What's the best card you own? The Royal Assassin. Oh, snap. This dude gots Royal Assassin. And I just got trees. And a Sarah Angel.

She's powerful. Who wins? Royal Assassin versus Sarah Angel. Sarah Angel sounds like someone you go to middle school with. Really? Yeah, because essentially the Royal Assassin only works against tapped creature, which means they've been used. And Sarah Angels never tap. So your Royal Assassin can never kill a Sarah Angel.

That's a really good point. Now, Molly, why is playing games with Jeff so non-fun? It's just, it's the time management issue. I don't really, you know, we have a limited amount of time to spend together and I would prefer that we could spend it doing something more kind of interactive than, trying to play like 900 different combinations, you know, while I'm staring into space and thinking, oh, God, is it done yet? So how long does a session of ascension take in your home? Anywhere from probably about an hour to maybe two hours. No, it takes a long time. No, it takes longer than a half an hour to maybe two hours. No, it takes a long time. It's a half hour.

No, it takes longer than a half an hour. Have you ever timed, Jeff, between moves? I have not, but I do have kind of a – when we were visiting my family over Christmas and we were playing a game of Ascension with my brother. And my brother and I went from the living room into the kitchen to get more beer for everyone. And then while we were in the kitchen, and Jeff had just started his turn. And while we were in the kitchen, my brother and I had this very long, involved, deep conversation about his life plans. And we came back into the living room finally, and Jeff was still on his original turn. He was not done yet.

So I have to ask you, what decision did your brother come to? He was telling me all about his girlfriend and how wonderful she is and how he wants to move the relationship forward. Oh, great. Yes. Does he need me to propose to her for him? Great. Yes. Does he need me to propose to her for him?

I think he's definitely planning to propose, but other factors are at play. Wow. So while real life was going on, Jeff was still in his fantasy world. Exactly. And it was a long time. It was a very long time. To the point where you felt like you might not want to play the game anymore? Yeah. We do go in fits and starts where we'll play every night for about a week,

and then we won't play for a few weeks, and then we'll start playing again. So this was kind of at the tail end of one of the active phases. Jeff, what are you doing with your cards? It's taken so long. Well, I would say that was an isolated event. That was literally the longest turn I ever had. I would say... How long would that have been in your memory, would you guess?

I would have said it was about a 15-minute turn. Yeah, I'd agree with that. All right. And how long would you say, on average, you take to do a turn? At max now, it'll be two minutes. No. And it's not like... If this was about Scrabble, then I'd be like yeah you're absolutely right because i am glacial when playing scrabble

because i mean it'll take me a long time to come to work he's also how often how molly how often do you guys play scrabble we have not played scrabble in many years it's been a while but in this but unlike that where nothing does happen in this game and i'm constantly playing cards so you can watch my turn on full. It's not like I'm just staring at my cards for like 20 minutes and then making these moves. It's just since you don't know the game, it would be hard to explain. But there's different cards that interact. Whatever you do, don't be condescending.

So it's just the way the cards interact. So sometimes it will take longer because I'm able to use more cards and buy more stuff and do more things. So it just depends because the game's always in a constant state of flux. There's always different rules out there. So sometimes I can take advantage of the rules and extend my turn. It's in a state of flux in the sense that during your turn, you might be doing five or six different things. During your turn, you might be doing five or six different things, but your opponents are just sitting there waiting for you to finish up your weird card shopping spree. Exactly.

They can do the same thing during their turn, though. Oh, but they just do it faster and more efficiently, and I would presume, to your point of view, more poorly. It really just depends on what cards they have. Molly did win recently in the last two weeks and she had some longer times. You won two weeks ago. That was a long time ago, baby. About two weeks ago. I'm upset to learn that you aren't keeping a win-loss record between the two of you. We'll rectify that immediately. Well, I think it would help you to resolve some of these disputes.

I'll say, I've probably won Ascension maybe twice out of all the times that we played, and I think our daughter has won maybe once or twice, would you say, Jeff? She won when the three of us played about two or three weeks ago. And how many times has Jeff won? We have played at least 20 times, so he's won the remainder. He's won at least 16 times, probably closer. Why should your wife and daughter play a game with you that they're almost certainly going to lose and that, from their point of view view takes too long and is boring because

of the time you are taking to take your turns think about it and make a case for why they should continue to play this game with you well to be honest i don't really believe my terms are really lasting that long like i said the ice i'll fairly admit that when we were in athens georgia yes that was my i had some monster turns it was things that just rarely ever happened on the board that I fully exploited. I accept that anomalies come up in Ascension all the time. Sometimes a game of Ascension just goes long. But here's the thing. You don't have a record of wins and losses, nor do you have a record of actual turn times.

So all of this is subjective. Of course, you don't believe your turns are taking too long, but Molly's is. Now, either Molly is expressing her feelings genuinely, or she's playing a metagame where she's trying to paint you as some kind of villain, which, by the way, I'm not dismissing as a theory, but she's playing some kind of metagame to get in your head to make you feel like you're taking too long, such that you rush and then she can destroy you. Which, by the way, Molly, if you're doing that that's fantastic i plead the fifth uh but but regardless of how long you feel you're taking she feels you take too long and therefore what would you say to her to say here's why you should continue to play this game, even though you find it tiresome, boring, and you never win?

I mean, I want, I only want her to play if she's enjoying it. So, I mean, if she's like bored about it, then yes, we don't have to play. I mean, we no longer play Dominion. I thought it was fun. Molly, do you agree with the statement Jeff just made? I only want her to play if she's having fun. No, I don't agree with that. He wants me to play, and he wants me to play the way that he wants to play,

and for me to have fun. But it doesn't really, my personality and my likes and preferences don't really figure into it. The way I want to play is the rules of the game. How would you modify or adjust the game, Molly, to make it more fun for you? You know, I encourage you to use as many esoteric terms specific to Ascension or as possible. I'm not being sarcastic. Specificity is the soul of narrative.

I want to hear all the details. I'm sarcastic. Specificity is the soul of narrative. I want to hear all the details. I would like him to be banned from acquiring more than, say, two mechanic constructs per game. Go on. No more than two mechanic constructs. I love this already. I would like for him to have a timer, and if he goes over the timer, then he has to pay a penalty as far as losing some of his cards. I would like him to be handicapped by having a point deficit to overcome. That's pretty much it. Those three things, I think. None of which are in the rule books for Ascension.

It's like, why would I be penalized for a good play? But it's a handicap, Jeff. It's like a golf handicap. Molly, why do you want to turn this all into a big Harrison Bergeron experiment? I want him to play with a big rubber nose so that he's not handsome. And also, he's got to wear an eye patch. And the headphones that made the high-pitched noise, right? Oh, I notice you've read Harrison Bergeron.

Nice. You get a lot of the cultural references, don't you, Molly? I told you I do. Well, you win that game. Jeff, your wife is obviously wonderful and adorable. Why do you antagonize her this way? Why not agree to her standards for making the game more playable and fun for her? Well, I don't necessarily agree that you make games easier for people.

Like a story I sort of share is my sister and I used to play tennis. And my sister was two years my younger. And I used to beat her every time. I mean, just hands down, she was going to play me. She was going to lose. I left for college and I came back one year. And by then she was on the tennis team. We played and she won.

And it was such a significant victory. Even the one I told you about early tomorrow, like when our daughter played, she still talks about the time that she won Dominion. So, I mean, that way victories, like, they have more meaning when you beat someone that, you know, plays better than them. You know, you don't, you don't really learn anything if, I mean, I'm, I mean, it's almost like I'm pandering to you and it's like, oh, you can't beat me. So I have to do all these things so you can feel good about yourself. I mean, it's, you can feel much better. Oh yeah. Yeah. Then that if you change the rules, then you would, then you would be condescending to her. Exactly right.

Yeah. It's like I'm patronizing. It's like, oh, yes. Yeah. I'm so much better than you. So let me change these rules so you can compete with us and your mortals. Yeah. And there's no and there's and you are in no way patronizing her currently by essentially saying, why don't you just let me beat you up like I did my little sister and our –

and why don't you get joy out of the occasional beginner's luck win that you get like our child? Exactly. I'm not a six-year-old, so, you know, my enjoyments are a little more nuanced than hers. My enjoyments are a little more nuanced than hers. What would you say is the lesson you're teaching this six-year-old that's playing with you and losing over and over and over? I can tell you exactly what he's going to say. He's going to say that the lesson that he's teaching her is that life is hard and you have to do the best that you possibly can. And even if you do the best that you possibly can, chances are you'll still suck. No, we just play to have fun.

I mean, now we've been playing a game called Flux. I mean, because these games, I mean, she's six and they're made for like 12 and older. So they're already kind of above her age group. So the simple fact that she's playing them and understanding them is great. It's like, hey, I have a smart kid. So we sort of we play Flux, which is a lot easier. We have a lot of fun playing with that. We do. We do have a lot of fun playing that.

So that one's not not an issue. fun playing with that in japan we do we do have a lot of fun playing that so that one's not uh not an issue so i'd like to point out that we do have like couple friends who used to play board games with us and they no longer play board games with us because of the way that jeff takes his turn i think that's complete boulder dash no well wait a minute you think you you think that it's terrible they no longer play with you? He doesn't believe me. That's the reason. People we barely ever see who played Catan with us, a different game once or twice. Yeah, I'm familiar with Settlers of Catan.

Yeah. What evidence do you have? Once or twice. It wasn't ever. The evidence that I have is that I saw Amy yesterday and I told her that we were going to be on this podcast. And she said, yeah, Jeff's turn really do take a long time. Yeah. Well, that's sort of leading the witness though, Molly. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like if you brought her in and you said, doesn't Jeff take a long time? She probably would say, yeah. I said, we're going to be on this podcast because of how he plays board games. And she said, yeah, his turns really are long. But at no point, you don't have any.

No, you may be quiet, sir. I'm talking. I'm sorry, sir. Forgive me. Don't make me stand up again. Stand up. Back to jail. Molly, seriously now. Yes. Before telling your friends

that you were bringing Jeff to internet court, did any of them express frustration with the way he played Settlers of Catan, Scrabble, Ascension, Flux, Double Flux, Under Flux? Always Flux. Interstellar Pig, whatever it was? Not express frustration, but there have been times where our friends that, you know, have played board games with us in the past, they came over fairly recently and, you know,

we kind of suggested that we could play board games and they weren't at all interested in it. Yeah. Well, that may be. It was during the Super Bowl. Sorry, I'm still standing. Well, actually you that may be... It was during the Super Bowl. Sorry, I'm still standing. Well, actually, you introduced some... Was this during the Super Bowl? No, this was the opening day of baseball.

This was when they came over. And who got in front of the television and said, hey, why don't we turn this noise off so we can play... We can roll some dice and play some AD&D. We bought a pool table since we've moved and had a pool table. So now our recreation usually moves down to the basement as opposed to relying on board games because there's more fun things to do in our house now. But I'll say that the baseball game had nothing to do with it

because you can watch baseball from our kitchen table. What do you mean? Oh, on television. We have an open floor plan in floor plan. I understand now. I thought, I thought for a moment that maybe you were living in a skybox and whatever the major league baseball team is that that plays in Cura de Len or whatever. No, we don't even have a college team here. So, all right. Well, I'm afraid your evidence just doesn't hold up. It's not,

it's not compelling to me as much as I want to believe in it. It is not compelling to me. I don't know whether it's balderdash, but I'm not going to allow it entered into this courtroom. Jeff, come on out of jail again. Thank you, sir. Jeff, is Ascension a game you can play by yourself?

No. One of the advantages though is we've mentioned Settlers Like a Tan earlier. We don't get to play that very much because you can't really play with two players. But Dominion and Ascension are both games that work from two to more players. So that's why we were playing that a bit more. Do you acknowledge that your style of play is annoying to your wife? I mean, if she says it is, then yes.

I sort of disagree that my turns take forever. I mean, I admit that I'm usually pretty good at these games, but at the same token, when I'm teaching people how to play, I will suggest moves that hurt myself. Like, I'll tell them, yeah, you should do this. When we play Sillage Like a Tan, you know, I encourage people to agree with my wife and gang up on me

because if they don't I'll usually win because he's not patronizing at all no I'll be honest because usually I mean that's that's usually strategy

like you know don't help Jeff otherwise he'll win and then I have to my strategy then because to convince them to forget that

she told them at the beginning so he's okay with handicapping himself if there are more than if it's more than just me but if it's more than just me. But if it's just me, he's not good. Well, no, they're usually learning how to play the game.

And I'm a really good teacher in that sense. And I try to, like, get them thinking of strategy and big picture as opposed to just, you know, holding their hand. That way, you know, they can be a good competitor. Yeah, he's okay with changing the rules to the game if he decides it's okay to change the rules to the game. Yeah. No, I don't change the rules to the game if he decides it's okay to change the rules to the game. Yeah. I don't change the rules of the game. If you're giving an advantage to another player for whatever reason, you are adjusting and modifying the rules of the game. Well, I'll make suggestions.

Like if they were like, I don't know what to do with this. Well, it's like, well, you can trash this or whatever, and that would really hurt me. And since I'm in the lead, that's what you want to do sort of thing. So I'll give advice. I don't change the rules. I give advice so they can get better. Do you enjoy playing games with Molly? Oh, yeah.

It's one of my favorite things we do at night. It breaks up the monotony of watching Breaking Bad or Archer or whatever else is on TV or whatever. It's been a long winter, hasn't it, guys? Yeah, there's really not much. If you don't ski, there's not a whole lot to do here. Why don't you play Scrabble anymore, Molly?

She's mad because I'm the only one who ever beat her. Yeah, kind of. And also, well, I told you he does, he spams the engine on Words with Friends a lot. And so that kind of... I never play with her. That has soured... We used to play.

That has soured me on his word game. Is that true, sir? Do you spam the engine? I do spam the engine. I am an evil and inveterate engine spammer. Because it's not disallowed in the rules. I mean, we've discussed this on the podcast many times. This is why playing Scrabble or or i don't ever play words with friends

but uh because it's too friendly but playing scrabble on the on a computer on a on a smartphone or what have you uh is a different game because there's no challenge there is a there's a distinct rule difference that makes it a completely different game in many ways i agree and you can spam the engine on scrabble too and and i've, I've felt that temptation, but I self-police even though it is not against the rules. Okay. What's your best score in Scrabble? Molly? Probably three fifties, maybe closer to 400, probably three fifties. I'll say probably somewhere around there. That's good. I like that. What about you, Jeff? Around the same. Yeah, like I said, I don't always – Scrabble is the one game where –

We're pretty evenly matched. We're pretty evenly, and that drives – I remember the first time she was so sad the first time I ever beat her in Scrabble. And if this was all about Scrabble, I'd understand because, yes, like I said, I take very slow Scrabble turns. But I would argue my Ascension turns, at least I'm doing things and playing the game while my turns are above. And they take just as long and they're just as interesting for me to watch as the glacial scrabble. When you lose, that's all.

And my last question before I go into my behind the Dungeon Master's screen that is my chambers. What is a mechanicon construct? A mechaniconstruct is a mechaniconstruct, excuse me. No, it's mechaniconstruct, excuse me. A mechanica construct.

No, it's mechanic construct, baby. Look it up. So in Ascension, you have hero cards and you have construct cards. And the construct cards, you can just kind of lay out and they're out of your deck. They don't clog up your hand anymore, but you still get the good effects. And the hero cards, they have to stay in your hand. And so there's always a chance that you'll get a hero card that you don't clog up your hand anymore, but you still get the good effects. And the hero cards, they have to stay in your hand, and so there's always a chance that you'll get a hero card that you don't really need. And there are just different varieties of constructs and heroes, and Mechanica is one of them. Yeah, there's four different.

There's Mechanica, Enlightened, there's Void, and there's Lifebound. And essentially, the good thing about the Mechanica is the amount you pay for them is how many victory points there were. So it's sort of a strategy to try to get as many of those constructs because they're worth a lot of points at the end. The thing about them, they work well together. So if you just buy one, it's not really good. But if you buy a bunch of them, suddenly you have a lot of victory points. That's why I want to limit his mechanic construct.

But with the same token, she can buy as many as she wants. Let the record show the snoring was emanating from Bailiff Jesse's nose and not mine. I was just grinning with delight listening. We should play some time. I think you'd enjoy it. Oh, no, I'm never going to play a game with you, sir. It would be impossible. You take it extremely seriously.

You're obviously very competitive and you're incredibly patronizing. You're a nice guy, but you can't help yourself. When someone asks you a simple question, you give the longest and most complex answer ever possible. All I wanted to know was what a mechanical construct is or whatever. And suddenly I'm getting a tutorial that's 15 pages long. I don't need to open this readme file. Judge Hodgman, to be fair to Jeff, he would suggest the best moves for you to make if you were having a hard time. But he would do it very patronizingly.

And number two, let's say you're in Coeur d'Alene and it's winter and you don't ski. What else are you going to do? Freeze. Okay, I think I've heard enough to make my decision. I am going to roll some dice in my chambers and I'll come back with my decision in a moment. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jeff, I'm going to save you for a second because Lord knows once you get started, it's hard to slow you down.

For the record, I'm the only one who wrote it. Shut your pie hole. Molly, how are you feeling about your chances in this case? You know, I feel pretty good because I feel like Jeff, through the sheer power of his personality, kind of made my points for me. Do you enjoy playing games with this guy? Sometimes I do. I just would enjoy them more if he would kind of be a little tiny bit more self-aware. Jeff, how are you feeling about your chances in this case? You have like 10 seconds. I feel great. Okay, good. Really trying not to talk. I don't think I've been that long-winded. Yeah, I think that's part of the problem, Jeff.

We'll see what Judge Hodgman has to say when we come back in just a minute. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. And you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right?

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Please rise as Judge John Hodgman reenters the courtroom. Jeff and Molly, you may be seated. Thank you. Thank you. You know, I appreciate Jeff's point of view. You know, that quote that I read from John Roderick made a lot of sense until he started saying, you can hack and descrabble a variety of ways permitting proper names as long as they are rock bands, allowing people to look up two-letter words, not forcing challenged words to lose a turn.

No, you can't. You can't do any of those things, John. You can't just change the rules. The game works because of the way the rules are established. The beauty and elegance of Scrabble only truly shines after you've played it a number of times and you begin to see it in the context of those rules. Scrabble is one of those games that vocabulary pedants love to play because they think they're going to be able to show off their vocabulary. But your vocabulary doesn't matter so much as the elegant positioning of your words on the board. It is a game of design much more than it is a game of spelling.

And so if you start allowing proper names, it becomes a game of design much more than it is a game of spelling. And so if you start allowing proper names, it becomes a different game, a scrabble with an asterisk. And so I respect what you're saying, Jeff, that you don't want to Harrison Berger on yourself and you don't want to limit the number of mechanic cons or whatever they're called. And you don't want to do anything that doesn't abide by the rules

because the game was designed in a way that you find to be pleasing. But of course, the opposing force in this game that you and Molly are playing is that she doesn't have to play. You need someone to play against. And you need someone who appreciates the rules as they're written as much as you do in order to have the game that you enjoy play out the way that you enjoy it. And here's the thing, Jeff, you're a nice guy. And I agree with you. Like having your, you know, helping your daughter to learn how to play games that are a little or a lot beyond her skill set, and teaching her the incredible pleasure

that comes when you win after not winning for a long time, because it's hard, and not teaching her the easy pleasure of winning by changing the rules. that's a wonderful lesson to give to a child. May I stress, to a child? Giving that lesson to an adult that is your partner in life is not necessary. And if you continue to get so wrapped up in the fantasy world of your game that you continue to deny the reality regarding, I don't think I play too long. I don't think I talk too much. I don't think I was making a bunch of jokes at this time. No, listen to other people. They're telling you what you're doing. You're taking too long. You're talking too long. You're interrupting too much,

making too many wisecracks. Oh, that's why you were in jail this whole time. It doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong because I think you're a great guy and I would love to play a game of Scrabble with you. I bet you are an incredible opponent and you're clearly a loving husband and loving father. And you're terrific. But where this conflict stems from is that you are in your own head when it comes to these games. You are no longer able to see the player in front of you going, And there is no risk to you. There's no risk at all. Other than eventually, whether it's balderdash that these friends aren't playing

games with you or not, eventually Molly might choose to just not do it. Not play a particular game with you, like Scrabble, not play this game with you anymore. And that's no fun. And that's no fun. You know, my wife and I play a lot of Scrabble. We go through our ups and downs with it. We've reached, we now are basically such well-matched opponents that it's not even a lot of fun anymore. And there are times when one of us really wants to play because we just want to get that Scrabble fix.

And the other one just sort of limps along. You know, it's sort of like, that's when you feel like this is what people talk about when marriages have gone wrong. When someone wants to do something and the other one just goes, okay. And it could be anything, not just Scrabble, if you see what I mean. That's not what you want in a marriage.

What you want is to have fun together and enjoy each other's company, not force someone to play a game that they're not enjoying playing or not bowing out of a game because it's no fun anymore. You got to find a game that's fun to play together. Maybe that's not ascension. Maybe it's you go back to Scrabble and put that dark period behind you. Maybe you work together to get your two-letter word scores up and learn your three-letter word lists together better. I don't know why it always comes back to Scrabble with me. It's the only game I care about, I guess.

Maybe you play poker or whatever, but it's important. It's imperative that you find a game where the pace and the style and the interest level are a little bit more evenly matched. Because if you continue to play the game only to have your own fun with your cards, It's not going to be fun for everyone, and you're not going to have as many people to play with. That said, I'm not going to force you to change the rules of Ascension. That's not me. It's the rules of the game. Sorry, Molly. You ought to know that I would never, I would never,

you know, the Ayn Rand in me would never suggest that a good player be handicapped in order to bring along a lesser player. No way. And if that's what you want ordered out of this court, I must find in Jeff's favor. Jeff, you've heard my stern warnings. You've sat in jail. You know how I feel about this. Being a good player of a game does not mean,

and being a good competitor does not merely mean playing your best. It also means being a good sport. Bear that in mind when people express specifically the person who is arguably closest to you in your life. Express concern with your style of play. But I do not find in Molly's favor.

I find in Jeff's favor. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge Sean Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Jeff, you've triumphed in this case. How are you feeling? Feel good. You don't have to literally.

Now you're getting involved in some kind of weird contest as far as how many how few words you can say he's winning the game now he's now he's winning i'm a journalism instructor i know how to be direct and to the point yeah because he's been directed to the point all podcast molly how are you feeling i feel okay i you know i didn't expect to win but i did expect that maybe his philosophy would shift a bit. So we'll see if that happens. Jeff, do you think your philosophy is going to shift? Well, I did get advice from a wonderfully wise man, so I'll have to ponder upon it. In other words, no. Basically.

You're just going to keep doing everything exactly the same way you did before. Here's what I suggest. Here's some mediation. This is not a legal ruling. This is just a suggestion, Jeff. I think you are a natural-born teacher. You clearly understand things and take pleasure in explaining systems to people who don't understand them. I don't think you're a monster when you play. You want everyone to be playing at the same level you are, and you love to teach that. Is that not so? I agree with you. Right. So this is a game that you might get better enjoyment out of if

you are in a teaching environment by going and running some sessions down at the thing or playing with your daughter or what have you. It may not be just the right game for you to play with Molly. That's all I'm saying. Okay. And, you know, I don't mean to hurt your feelings by saying you talk too much and you made too many jokes. You made it a lot more interesting. Thank you.

Oh, I try. And Molly, if I were you, because of the man that you were married to, who is very quick to say, I don't think I'd talk too long. I don't think I take too long on my turns. I don't think that people say this. You know, you might want to start keeping that win and loss record. You might want to start collecting some data. I will do that. So that, so that when you get into these conflicts in the future where you have a subjective opinion about how long something is taking and he has a different one, then you guys can actually look at the data and say, Oh yeah, you're right. Or, Oh yeah, I was wrong. I will do that. Definitely. Keep score. If you're, if you're playing, if you're playing the games,

you got to keep score. All right. I'm sorry. I jumped back in there, Jesse, but I had some further thoughts that I just had to scream out. Jeff, Molly, thanks for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you for having us. Thank you very much. Hello, teachers and faculty. This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Lodgeman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory. The JV Club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on Maximum Fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.

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You know, I just found out that the full name of that game, Judge Hodgman, is Ascension colon Chronicle of the God Slayer. What? Jesse, you just made me drop my Intellivision. How did we not get that into the show? That seems like it should have been basically, what, 50 to 75 percent of the content of that case should have been a discussion of the second half of that title. Why not just call a thing Ascension? And why is magic the gathering, not just magic or the gathering? And as much as we all love Neil deGrasse Tyson, does Cosmos need a new subtitle? A space-time continuum journey or whatever? We don't need colons anymore. Got it, Winter Soldiers? Stop it. Just name a thing a thing. Let's clear the docket. My girlfriend and I, Brad writes, cannot watch Bill Murray movies together.

My girlfriend finds Bill Murray arrogant and obnoxious, but I submit that he's a national treasure. Murray arrogant and obnoxious, but I submit that he's a national treasure. If Ghostbusters is on TV, I'm forced to watch it in two-minute intervals while she's out of the room. I think it's unreasonable to expect in this day and age to somehow avoid the fruits of Mr. Murray's diverse and respected career. Please help me write this wrong. Well, of course, it is a precedent of this courtroom that people like what they like, and there is a corollary ruling, which is that you can't make people like what they don't like. And look, I love Bill Murray and I'll agree with you that he is a national treasure. And I think most right thinking people do. But that doesn't mean that your girlfriend can't have an honest reaction to his performances.

Your girlfriend may simply not like Bill Murray. And there's a reason for it. You know, here's the thing. I was, I recently enjoyed two pieces of culture, Jesse. And one of them was watching Ghostbusters again for the first time in years and years. And I realized what a tenuous, uh, uh, that Ghostbusters is a movie that is run almost purely on Bill Murray's charm. It is hard to find great lines from that movie. There are some great ones, but they are only great because of the way they're delivered. And the whole thing stays aloft, uh, like that plastic bag on, like that plastic bag on a breeze in American Beauty,

like it could fall apart at any time. And only because Bill Murray is so charming. But one of the things that's so weird about his performance in that is, why does Peter Venkman care about ghosts? Like, you know, we know why Dan Aykroyd cares about ghosts. And we know why dan agaroyd cares about ghosts and we know why harold ramus cares about ghosts it's in their it's in their nature and their characters but then you have this peter venkman bill murray playing a bill murray style agent of chaos who doesn't seem to believe in ghosts but has a phd in parapsychology or paranormal psychology it doesn't it doesn't make a lot of sense that he's in the movie. And I think that that might be what the girlfriend is responding to. And that made me think of another piece of culture that I recently just enjoyed, which is the radio show Bullseye, hosted by my friend Jesse Thorne.

Are you familiar with that one, Jesse Thorne? I've heard a little bit about it. In which Jason Schwartzman recently gave a wonderful interview. And you know that I love Jason Schwartzman recently gave a wonderful interview. And you know that I love Jason Schwartzman. And he recounted his first experience acting on Rushmore with Bill Murray. And he said to Bill Murray, why does my character like you, your character, do you think? And Bill Murray said, now you're acting. Just say the lines and try to be funny. which which you know is not exactly what bill murray does in his in his acting he's doing some incredibly interesting stuff but it's intuitive stuff and it's and uh and he was trying to help jason schwartzman feel calm and and and to get over the the the massive amount of second guessing that can happen i know from personal experience when someone who hasn't been trained as an actor is forced to do some acting. And it was amazing advice, but it sort of sums up in many ways, the incredible charm of Bill Murray, that naturalism, which is Bill

Murray has shown up and he's saying his lines and he's trying to be funny. And he's not giving it much more thought than that. And there's something beautifully zen about it. But it leads to some weird disconnect, at least in the movie Ghostbusters, where you don't know why he's there. You don't know why that character is there. There's no plausible explanation for why he's even hanging around these guys. Doesn't mean that it's not a great movie. It just means that it is a movie that runs purely on the charm of Bill Murray. And if you're not buying that for whatever reason, like this poor man's girlfriend, she never will. She'll never get it. She'll never buy it. She'll never enjoy it. So stop trying to force her to watch it. The fact that she does not appreciate that Bill Murray is an incredibly gifted, natural movie star, screen presence, comedic genius, pure natural.

It will be her loss forever, but she will never win that one. You'll never win that game, and you'll both lose if you keep trying to play it. Can I just take this opportunity to celebrate two, I think, under-celebrated Bill Murray movies? Sure. One of them is a movie from the late 1990s called The Man Who Knew Too Little.

Is that the one with the elephant? No, it is a spy parody. Oh. It's sort of like a Hitchcock parody with Bill Murray as the guy who's the schlemiel who's tossed into the middle of everything. It's not a great movie, but it is a very fun, enjoyable movie that I think has almost no reputation at all.

Sure. And I recommend it if you're a fan of Bill Murray. I think you would enjoy watching it. It's a nice, enjoyable watch. And then I think one of Bill Murray's best movies is a movie that he co-directed, Quick Change, which I feel like you never hear about Quick Change. And I really think it stands with the best of his work. Quick Change is an amazing movie. Didn't he co-wrote it or co-directed it?

Yeah, he definitely co-directed it. And he may have been involved in writing it as well. Yeah. And that's a movie that, you're right, does not get screened very often. That is that is well overlooked. I mean, not it is overlooked by most people. Never mind. You know what Murray is Bill Murray is an authorial agent in his best work and I think sometimes people don't give him enough credit for that

you know they think he's just sort of a savant but I think it demonstrates that as co-director of that film he made a really superb film so there you go and I am also a fan of his serious movie from the 80s, Somerset Maugham, The Razor's Edge. He's beautiful in that. And that is a movie about discovering Zen. I mean, his whole monologue that no one in the world, or at least not the two litigants recognized from Caddyshack about meeting the Dalai Lama

and that the Dalai Lama couldn't tip him but promised him what was it? Knowledge of the universe when he died. So at least he's got that going for him. You know, there is something beautiful about

Bill Murray and unique about Bill Murray's approach to acting and I think to life as well. And it's something I really appreciate. And there are all those stories about Bill Murray showing up at college parties and doing the dishes or sort of dropping in on people's lives unexpectedly and engaging with them and then shooting a grappling hook up to the rafters and disappearing like a comedic Batman. And one time I was sitting in a bar in New York City and I realized Bill Murray was right over my shoulder and he came over and he stood right behind me for a minute and I'm like, this is it. I'm going to have my weird Bill Murray encounter. This could be the thing. This could be the moment. And instead, he just reached over my shoulder and paid the bartender and tipped him graciously and left. And I realized that was probably my one chance to get a weird Bill Murray encounter. And I didn't get it. And I'll never get it.

Not especially after I've said all the dumb things I've said about him on this podcast. Hey, if you if you want to hear if you want to hear about my missed opportunity to be friends with Bill Murray, you can hear the thing that we clipped out of the interview with Jason Schwartzman. It's on the Bullseye page. There's a link to it on the Bullseye episode page for the Jason Schwartzman interview about the time that I tried to audition for the movie Rushmore. But I only got as far as the line outside the door for the audition, and then they just pointed to me and said, Sorry, too tall. No, really?

Yeah, true story. Unbelievable. I came to my high school to audition people. Well, I don't want to be friends with Bill Murray. I just want him to come to my party and do the dishes and then disappear like Batman. Yeah, that's true. Maybe being friends with Bill Murray might be more of a burden than it was a...

He doesn't seem like the kind of guy you want to call when you have a hard day. No, I just don't want to impose on him. I don't know what it's like. Bill Murray, if you're listening to this, it's John Hodgman. I didn't mean to suggest that your character had no motivation in Ghostbusters. It was just a little thing that I observed. And I've left you several messages before, and you've never called me back. But just know, I think you're the best.

Thanks to Lauren Cummings for naming this week's Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thanks, Lauren. If you want to name a future episode, just like us on Facebook at facebook.com slash search for Judge Sean Hodgman. It's not the URL. It's a set of instructions. I'm getting a little tired here. And you know what? It's been a long game of cosmic wimp out,

Jesse. Even if you don't want... Isn't it all just a long game of cosmic wimp out? Even if you don't want to name a future episode of Judge John Hodgman, still, you should like us on Facebook. You know, that way you'll get the latest and hottest news from us and that kind of

thing. It's fun. You know, you can see all the other funny names that people came up with, or less than funny names in some cases. If you have a case for the Judge John Hodgman podcast, big or small, we consider them all. Go to MaximumFun.org slash JJHO. And Judge Hodgman, you actually are in charge of that, the email inbox that the emails go to. I mean, you actually do look at all the cases.

Yeah, that's where people write to me and accuse me of being less than fair. That's where people accuse me of being wrong about everything that I've ever said. And where I also get some really lovely notes from people who think that I'm occasionally right. The point is, I love hearing from you, whether you've got a case to dispute, or you have a correction to make, or you have just a note of your own. I read every email that you send to Hodgman at MaximumFun.org or via MaximumFun.org slash JJ Ho. They all go to the same inbox. That's me. If you don't hear back from me, that's my fault. If you do hear back from me, that's also my fault. Sorry. But I would love to hear disputes for this podcast and also for the New York Times Magazine. And if you're Bill Murray, come on,

Bill, drop me a line. I didn't mean to say those mean things. Let's be friends again. Our show is produced by Julia Smith. Our editor is Mark McConville. Hey, if you have thoughts about the show or if you just want to let us know that you like it or what have you, just go to iTunes and give us a rating. It makes a big difference in the iTunes rankings and stuff. So it means a lot to us. Go write a review.

Click on however many stars you feel is appropriate. I'm not going to tell you how many stars to pick, but I mean, it goes one to five. So I mean, probably all five is the most sensible choice. I can send you all a script that'll allow you to make it 35 stars if you want. That's all for this week's episode of Judge John Hodgman. We'll talk to you next time. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, everybody.