Judge John Hodgman - Tips, Tricks and Justice

Episode Date: April 29, 2011

In this episode, we are joined by SPECIAL GUEST and EXPERT WITNESS Morgan Webb.  John argues that using a strategy guide when playing a video game is cheating, pure and simple.  His friend Josef argues that while it provides an advantage, it's not out of line to use a guide and constitutes no cheating.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, tips and tricks and justice. John brings the case. He says that when his friend Joseph uses a strategy guide while playing video games, it is, to put it simply, cheating. Joseph says that since strategy guides are sometimes even packaged with video games, they can hardly be considered cheating, but are instead a perfectly normal way of playing the game. Who is right and who is wrong? Who is the cheater and who is golden hearted? Only Judge John Hodgman can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Beep, boop, beep, boop.

Video game justice exterminate. Kill the human. Kill the intruder. I like that one, John. Hello, Bailiff Jesse. Would you please swear in the complainant and defendant? Absolutely. John Joseph, please rise and raise your right hand.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? Yes. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that his entire understanding of the world of video games comes from a Coleco vision he had when he was a teenager? Yes.

Very well, Judge Hodgman. Gentlemen, that was very good, Jesse. Okay, I'll just wait until you're done looking through the phone book. Very well. That was very good, Jesse. I did, in fact, have a ColecoVision, and I rocked not only Donkey Kong Jr., but also Venture. Is everything okay?

Is there a... I hope... Hello? Oh, yeah, sorry. The TV went on in the background. Sorry, I'm just constructing a small hut here. I apologize. I was just.

Just doing some thatching. Just, yep, just to make it a little, just making a little fort. I apologize. I did have a Clico vision. That is true. And I was an expert, not only at Donkey Kong Jr., but also George Plimpton's video Falconry. Did you know that, Jesse? I had no idea.

Yeah. It was controversial because he didn't release an Intellivision version. He went straight to ColecoVision because it was the better console, frankly. It actually had a manipulable joy stick thing, a joy knob, basically. I would have guessed that had he created a video game, he would have gone straight to George Plimpton's journalist interloper on a professional football team. Yes, it would have been George Plimpton's terrible boxing or George Plimpton's terrible football. Or George Plimpton watches the rumble in the jungle.

And the video game is just Muhammad Ali and George Foreman fighting, but you can't control any of them. All you can do is control George Plimpton in the front row as he sort of genteely raises his arms in triumph from time to time and then sips a martini. If you do a complicated enough series of button presses, you can whisper a witticism to the person next to you. Yes, to Norman Mailer. Oh, there are two other people here. Hello, John and Yosef. Is that correct, Yosef? Joseph. Joseph, I apologize.

Jan, what is your problem? I believe that when video game creators make a world, they expect it to be experienced in a certain way. Final Fantasy VII would have been ruined for me if I was told about the death scene in there. What? What death scene? there um what i like what death scene oh go on yon um i liken this to as a child reading the choose your own

adventure books you don't just keep reading through the book normally you go to where the decision you know tells you to go so that way you're going through the story the way that was created to be written yon before you say anything else I am right in the middle of Cave of Time, so do not spoil this for me. And also, John, if you ruin Madden 2011, I'm so upset. So you were saying, you obviously have

a well-prepared speech, so let's go on. I also believe that cheating lessens the accomplishment. All right, Joseph, Mr. Ivy League, Mr. Fancy Pants,

Mr. Cheater, what's your defense? You're Mr. White Collar, so you don't have time to be laboring away through this thing. You should be given everything you want. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the use of strategy guides and things like that, they do not alter the gameplay.

It doesn't make it any easier. It's simply playing smarter. I see. And what game are we talking about here specifically? George Plimpton's video, Falconry? The games in question were Mega Man X and Mega Man X2. Okay. And I've never heard of these things. I'm an older person. As you know, I am really good at George Plimpton's Video Falconry. And I confess that I have cheated. You may know that on George

Plimpton's Video Falconry, if you do up, up, down, down, claw, flap, flap, flap, beak grab, claw grab, flap, flap, pitch, yaw, beak grab, double flap, you unlock the Kazakhstan Golden Eagle level and you get to hunt foxes. But I don't know any about this Mega Man X or anything else. So I am going to, for the very first time in Judge John Hodgman history, call my own expert witness, the woman known as Morgan Webb. Morgan, are you there? I am here. Hi, guys. Now, you guys probably know that Morgan Webb is the co-host of X-Play on the G4 television network and an avid gamer. And Morgan, do you know what Mega Man X is? I do, in fact, know what Mega Man X is. And I have played several of them. and I even did a review for Mega Man X7. So, first of all, is Mega Man X, does that mean that is the 10th Mega Man in Roman numerals?

It's actually sort of a side branch of the Mega Man series. So, there's Mega Man, and that has its own numbering system, and then there's something called Mega Man X. Oh, and this is just to make old people confused? Yeah, maybe it's a Japanese trick to make Americans confused. I'm not sure exactly. That's how they're going to get us. That's what Michael Crichton said. They're going to confuse us into thinking that Sean Connery is Japanese.

Now, listen, Jan, what is the story? I know that, Morgan, you know this, but I'd like to hear it from Jan, whom I'm going to call Jan. What is the story of Mega Man X? What is the gameplay? Is this a platformer, a side former, a one-person walkthrough, a first-person crossbow shoot thing? Or what is it? What do you do in this one? You basically go from left to right, up and down.

And you play a character called Mega Man who's somewhat more mega than a normal man? Yes. Okay. He's a robot. He's a robot? Or is he a machine gun? He is a robot. Good. Joseph, is that an accurate description of this game? The character is actually called X.

Okay. And do you really just go up, down, side to side, and shoot? No. Basically, you start off, there are eight different bosses and you can fight them in any order. So who are some of the bosses? In Mega Man X, there was Storm Eagle, Armored Armadillo, Chill Penguin, Spark Mandrill, Launch Octopus, Boomer Kawanger,

Armored Armadillo, and that's seven, I'm forgetting one. And you said Armored Armadillo twice, but that's fine. I don't doubt your proficiency, I just wanted to get a sense And how does cheating help you through this thing? I'm not cheating, I'm playing smarter Okay, look buddy How does using the strategy guide

Okay Help you through these things? It gives you an idea where the items are, how to beat the enemies And how to get around the obstacles But there's no actual alteration of the gameplay Morgan, are you familiar enough with this game to understand what this man is talking about? Absolutely. I have played more than one of these games. Okay. Now, strategy guides and walkthroughs and cheat codes, these are often sanctioned and published by the game publishers,

are they not? They are. A publisher will sometimes, like a game publisher will sometimes contract with something called maybe like Brady Games, for example, to create a strategy guide. However, I think we do need to sort of discern different levels and types of information that one can receive in a book or online. So what kind of strategy? We should be probably specific about what kind of strategy guide and what kind of information he was using specifically

to get an idea whether or not he was cheating. Well, yeah. Okay. So Joseph, what kind of cheating are you doing here? What are you using specifically? The first thing I want to point out is I was not using any cheat codes. I see. You were just simply playing smarter. So what exactly, what tool were you using? I went to an FAQ that provided all the bosses with their different weaknesses, because when you beat a boss, you get their weapon, and some of the weapons are more effective against some bosses. I went through ones to find the locations of hidden items. Okay.

And then occasionally ones to find out how to get through obstacles. Well, Armored Armadillo, I hear he's terrible. What is his weakness? Wait, wait, before you answer. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, before you answer. John, do you know his weakness? All the bosses have weakness against the Mega Buster. Well, obviously, John.

There were also video walkthroughs off YouTube that were referenced. Don't dance around this question. Do you know what Armored Armadillo's weakness is? Have you finished this game? Do you know what his weakness is? Yes, I was actually the one who beat the game. No one is telling me what you do to kill Armored Armadillo's weakness is? Have you finished this game? Do you know what his weakness is? Yes, I was actually the one who beat the game. No one is telling me what you do to kill Armored Armadillo. What if this guy comes for me? I need to know. Joseph, Armored Armadillo is coming at you. You are armed with information that will

help you play smarter. What do you do? His weakness is Spark Mandrill's weapon, the electric spark. I knew it. I knew it. The electric spark, right? But the version in question was an emulated collection on the PlayStation 2. Okay, that's all, that's nonsense language to me. I don't even know what you just said. Morgan, is playing with the strategy guide and FAQ, as Joseph has said, is that playing smarter or is that cheating? And we're considering this specific case, just this specific case, because there are so many gradations of strategy guides and help. So I just want to make sure that we're

not making a ruling on all use of help. We're just making a ruling on this use of help. I would love to have your point of view on all help, but I will eventually decide the fate of these specific two dudes. Personally, I actually don't think that it's cheating. And let me tell you why Mega Man, the Mega Man X series and the Mega Man in general, but Mega Man X series specifically, that game takes cheap shots. And that game is fairly difficult. And if you're sitting there thinking, you know, there's two parts to the game. So like a Twitch-based game like Mega Man, you still have to have the skill to pull off the moves. Like even if you mentally understand how it's done, I don't. Is it considered cheating if you aren't able to complete both the mental and physical part of the challenge?

I mean, I guess that's the main question. Also, this specific game, like they want a lot of trial and error. Have you guys heard of this game trial and error? game, like they want a lot of trial and error. They want you to have you guys heard of this game trial and error. You get this huge virtual ring of old rusty keys from this virtual junk drawer. And then you got to try to open a door with the keys and you don't know which one opens the door and you just keep trying one after the other, after the other, after the other. And then eventually one of it works and then you win.

Is that what this game is like? The game is like that, but it takes a lot of skill to get the key to turn. So you're trying, you know, you do a huge skill-based challenge and then you fail, and then you do a skill-based challenge and then you fail. You don't know nothing about my keys of skill, all right? I got highly skilled keys. I got some crazy locks.

Many tumblers, you understand? Without any offense to you, John, this is like a dumb blue-collar beat-em-up caveman game, it sounds like to me. Is that right, John? Yes and no. I mean, I'd like to say that I was able to beat the game when, in the whole time that Yosef has owned the game, he has not. Yeah, I know you'd like to say that. You've actually already said it once.

And I admire your earning it the fair way. I actually do admire John's persistence in beating the game because he has done something that I never had the patience to do. I do want to point out, when people are saying, if you're studying for the SAT or the ACT or the GRE, if you use a book to help you, nobody's saying that's cheating. It was intended with that purpose. My analogy would be bringing the study guide into the test with you. But if I access the strategy guide before in a different room, and then I walk into my living room and use the information that I've garnered to beat the game, is that a different

situation? Yes. But there is a there's still a substantive difference. Because when you go into to the SAT, there's no strategy guide that's going to tell you the answers to the questions that are going to be on that specific test. I think it's more a situation of cliff notes. You know, you can read the cliff notes to a famous work of literature, for example, The Areas of My Expertise by John Hodgman, and you can get all of the sort of a rundown of what the major themes are and all the secrets and the plot twists without having to go through the work of actually reading the book. But you won't have the amazing cataplectic, I dare say, experience of enduring the reading of 700 hobo names all the way through. And so which is the better experience, I guess is what it comes down to. What I'm saying is more reading the book

and then reading some critical essays by scholars on the book. But did you read the book? Did you play the game through and then read the strategy guide and go back and unlock new things and new Easter eggs and different approaches that you hadn't taken the first time through?

I've tried these games both different ways. Did you play the game all the way through before you went to the... Excuse me, I will have order. Did you play the game all the way through before you went to the strategy guide? It's not going to affect my judgment necessarily. I just want to know the truth. I've played it to the part of the final stages before. Part of the final stages?? Part of the final stages? Where specifically did you play to?

The second Sigma stage. But I just want to point out there are 16 total power-ups, eight bosses that you fight twice, and four final stages with the last boss having three different parts. Look, no one's questioning that there are a lot of power-ups.

I just wanted to know, did you experience the whole of the game? Did you work through the whole of the game with the brute, mindless force that Jan put into it before going to the strategy guide? And the answer is, you got pretty far. You got to maybe 600 of 700 hobo names, but then you turned to the strategy guide to finish it off.

Is that an accurate portrayal of what happened? Yes. Okay, that's fine. I'd just like to finish it off. Is that an accurate portrayal of what happened? Yes. Okay, that's fine. I'd just like to say off of what Morgan said, there is in fact a precedent for this case. Go on. I submitted it in evidence. It's the case of Louis Galoob Toys vs. Nintendo of America.

Okay. Which was about a gameplay accessory called the Game Genie. Tell me more about this. Okay, it's basically you would put it at the bottom of a cartridge, you would enter some codes, and it would alter the code of the game to actually change the gameplay. That was ruled to not create a derivative work from the original game. That was ruled on by a court, and that's a much higher standard than what I'm talking about. Because what I'm talking about in no way alters the gameplay. I'm going to rebut this and say that I find that this court case really doesn't apply

to this specific case. I mean, the court declared that the game genie was not copyright infringement. They declared that it wasn't making a derivative copy of the work because the content on the cartridge actually remained the same. The court didn't actually rule on anything of it having to do with cheating or anything like that. And I actually asked a sampling of gamers at my work, and they universally considered the Game Genie to actually be cheating. But I would say the counterpoint, the Game Genie and products like it, which are honestly available today, are completely different than the use of a strategy guide because they do change the way that the controller and you physically interact with the game. So I say we should actually throw this case out.

I don't think it applies to the situation in the slightest. Galoob versus Genie, right? Is that the one that we're throwing out? Galoob versus Nintendo. Galoob versus Nintendo. Okay, thank you. Galoob is Genie, right? Is that the one that we're throwing out? Galoob versus Nintendo. Galoob versus Nintendo. Okay, thank you. Nintendo was basically just trying to shut it down by using any means that they had, and they tried the copyright angle to shut down the game Genie. And part of it was that it was actually breaking the consoles.

So they had a lot of reasons to be against it. John, what is your problem with your friend Joseph? I mean, he had, as Morgan points out, he bought the game, presumably. He had the experience that he chose to have with it. He bought a legally or had access to a legally available knowledge base that allowed him to solve it or finish it in a faster, somewhat easier, somewhat more English major way. Why do you think that that's inappropriate? I'll just sum it down to this. You should have seen how excited the room was when I finally beat the game. He was jumping up and down high fives given quite liberally. Well, I am a fan of liberal high fives. But when your friend completed the game, Were high fives distributed liberally?

By my standards, yes. No. There's one standard for high fives. Two hands meeting each other. Two individual people slapping palms. Who did you high five? John. John. Did you high five Joseph when he cheated his way through this game? He has not completed it. He has currently

not completed it? I have beaten it since then. Let me understand this. Let's go back again. John, when you beat the game without the use of any strategy guide, I'm trying to be very clear and nonjudgmental here. I'm not going to use any loaded language

like cheating. When you beat the game without the use of any strategy guides or FAQs or anything else, were there high fives? Yes. Was there anyone else there at this little party? No.

Okay, so it was not a big party. It was two guys high-fiving party. I understand. Gotcha. Joseph, when you beat the game, using your strategy guides, can you describe where you were, what happened, and how you felt? I was in a room alone, and I felt pretty good.

That is the credo of the nerd. You basically did this in a sensory deprivation tank, didn't you? I just want to point out one thing. We actually had a shared game save, so he was using a lot of the fruits that came from my smart playing. Oh, now this is getting to be a very complicated intellectual property case. No, but I just want to point out there was only one stage game file. So when he was in the final stage playing with all those power-ups that made it easier... Yes, Counselor, I understand.

Your trying to make it more complicated for my puny brain is not going to help you. Now, Morgan obviously seems to think that you're enjoying this game the way you want to enjoy it, using the cliff notes to the game, is okay. I'm going to take that under advisement. John, on the other hand, beat this thing the way you want to enjoy it, using the cliff notes to the game, is okay. I'm going to take that under advisement. John, on the other hand, beat this thing the American way in a sensory deprivation tank, beating his head against a wall until there were high fives. I'm going to take that under advisement. Now I'm going to go into my chambers.

I'm going to think about this. I'm going to unwind to a little video falconry, and then I'm going to come back and I'm going to tell you my ruling. Please rise as Judge Johnodgman exits the courtroom how do you feel about your chances joseph um i think my chances are fairly good it relies a lot on the fact that there's no alteration to the gameplay so it doesn't make it any easier if it didn't make it easier why would you play why wouldn't you just uh not use the thing no but it makes i mean the physical game itself and the obstacles that you go through in the game are made no easier.

OK, OK. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman reenters the courtroom. Beep boop, beep boop. I can't think of anything else besides beep boop, beep boop. Sorry. It was a really good use of beep boop, beep boop, though. That's true. Morgan, what do you think I should do in this case? I would personally not consider it cheating because I admit to having used facts and strategy guides, and I know that everybody else on X-Play has used facts and strategy guides from one time or another. And I also know that there are some games where playing without knowledge resources

would be impossible. World of Warcraft, Starcraft, a lot of these games are have huge online communities to trade tips and strategies so i wouldn't consider it cheating yeah look we all have our armored armadillos to face in life i agree with you morgan but i think i also have to point out uh joseph with all due respect you're being a little weaselly here. I like John. I like the cut of John's jib. This guy just beat his head against a wall until it bled, and then finally it was done, and he played the game on its

own stupid, brutal, dumb terms, and finally got through it. Whereas you're, John, you're a smart fellow, but you figured out this game is stupid. You're the Rosie Ruiz of this game. You're like, this is rigged. This is dumb.

I'm going to get on a moped for a while and get past this. I think the whole thing about playing a game smarter and all that nonsense, that's just, you know, fancy words. I'm a working man today. Do you know what I'm saying? I'm going to vote for the working man in a lot of ways because this is fancy words for what it is, cheating. Now, my decision my decision however is colored

by the fact that we all have to cheat at these games a little bit that is actually part of the culture of gameplay and an accepted part of the culture of gameplay to some degree and this is a dumb game it sounds like this is like a like probably the dumbest game that i've ever heard of and one that is not a situation where you are missing out on the beauty of the plot of it because you're using the cliff notes to get to the end faster. If anything, John, I appreciate your wiliness and your whopper-like savvy. You have sussed out, as Morgan pointed out, that there are flaws in the game. And I do believe that that is your right. So while I do stand by and congratulate and liberally high-five John, I do think that at the end of the day, it is absolutely your right to have cheated in the way that you did.

I would call it nothing else. I would call this the sound of a gavel. Judge John Hodgman rules. You are pwned. Joseph, how are you feeling right now? It's not nice to be called a weasel, I realize. It's not personal. Maybe you are actually like a wereweasel, and then I would feel bad. But I would say that you are dancing around a very simple fact, which is you cheated. There isn't that much stigma, frankly, associated with cheating on video games. I think, as Morgan pointed out, there are levels where cheating is really kind of against the spirit of the game. But this kind of game, it seems to me, it seems perfectly open to the fact that there are just specific things

that you need to learn how to do in order to get through it, and you took a shortcut. But I don't think you should honey up the fact that you took a shortcut. That's what happened. How do you like that? You don't. John, how are you feeling? I feel okay.

I can live with it and live to fight another day. I think that it was an amazingly courageous and dedicated waste of your time, what you did. And I high-plaud you. That's a high-five with applause. I don't think what Joseph did was wrong. In many ways, I think what you did was silly. But you did it, and you should feel proud of it. And you earned that victory, and you get that victory without an asterisk next to it. That's how connected I am. I'm even using sports references.

Do you understand? I'm with you. And I feel like, you know, Joseph, you did something that was totally within your rights, and you probably had a better time. You made a decision to have a better time playing this video game with a little bit of extra help. That doesn't take away your enjoyment of the game, but you get an asterisk. That's all I'm saying. But, hey, John, no asterisk, buddy. No steroids.

No marital aids. You did it. You wasted your time in the proper American fashion. And I applaud you. I applaud you. John Joseph, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the Judge Sean Hodgman podcast. Well, thank you for having me. Yes, thank you. Morgan, thank you for taking the time to help us in our judgment. Thank you so much for having me. Morgan, do you have a second to go through some snap judgments with me? I do. Oh, cool. Hang

out for a second. Here's the first one from... By the way, we're all enjoying snifters of brandy, of course. Absolutely. Right. And I have my favorite cut scenes from George Clinton's video falconry running in the background. My snifter looks like brandy, but it's just caffeine-free Dr. Pepper. Nice. Here's a question from Jordan. He says his co-worker and he are arguing over whether or not Pixar movies are Disney movies. In a conversation about favorite Disney movies,

Jordan's co-worker brought up several Pixar films, which upset Jordan. He asks, is not my co-worker complimenting Disney on their great ability to distribute films? His demand, tell her she is wrong. What do you think, Morgan? Are Pixar movies Disney movies or not?

Pixar is part of Disney, therefore Pixar movies are Disney movies. Pixar, as Morgan points out, is owned by Disney. Indeed, John Lasseter is now overseeing animation for both Disney and Pixar. There is an operable distinction. I think that Pixar makes movies on their own, in their own little house in the northern part of California, apart and separate, and I think that there is a reasonable brand expectation when you say Pixar that you mean a movie that was produced by Pixar itself. However, Jordan needs to grow up and understand that whatever he might think about Disney movies, the two are one.

I don't think that he can forbid his friend from saying that her favorite Disney movies include Pixar movies, because I think he's trying to deny the reality that they are the same entity at this point. One final question. Joel writes and says he is an avid fan of geography and an enthusiastic traveler. As such, he maintains a personal state count of states in which he's been. Here's the tricky bit. On his honeymoon, he stopped in Dallas-Fort Worth

for a flight layover. Can he or can he not count this in his state list? I have a very strong opinion on this. Morgan, what do you think? I also have a very strong opinion on this. It does not count to be in the airport. You cannot tell anybody any information about the city that's there, or you did not eat any local food or anything like that. So being in the airport does not count as being in the state. I mean, would you count every state that you flew over as visiting that state? Technically,

you were in that state, but it absolutely does not count if you never left the airport. I absolutely agree with you, Morgan. Airports are their own special transitory traveling limbo. They are a state unto themselves. I think they should be counted as the 51st state. And you know that they all belong to each other because they're the only place in the world that has the moving sidewalks that we were promised while watching the Jetsons. Airports do not count. I think the best thing that you can expect from an airport is that maybe you'll meet Catherine Zeta-Jones and fall in love while you're living there. As in the film,

The Terminal. Morgan Webb, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you very much for having me. Morgan, your opinions are all correct. And I'm very glad that you were able to come in and help me sort this through because I didn't understand half of what those dudes were saying. And I could argue that all day. Good. Next time. You can further enjoy the wit and wisdom of Morgan Webb on X Play on the G4 Network weekdays at 6.30 p.m. Eastern or via video podcast. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is a production of

MaximumFun.org. Our special thanks to all of the folks who donate to support this show and all of our shows at MaximumFun.org slash donate. The show is produced by Julia Smith and me, Jesse Thorne, and edited by Matt Gourley. His great podcast, by the way, is called Super Ego. You can find it in iTunes or online at GoSuperEgo.com. You can find John Hodgman online at AreasOfMyExpertise.com. If you have a case for Judge John Hodgman, email us and be sure and include your telephone number. The email address is Hodgman at Maximum Fund dot org. If you have thoughts about the show, you can always comment on it on our message board, Forum dot Maximum Fund dot org. We'll see you online and next time right here on the Judge John Hodgman podcast.