Judge John Hodgman - TL;DNR

Episode Date: December 31, 2014

A man suggested that his friend read a very long series of fantasy novels, but isn't satisfied with the pace of her reading.

Welcome to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week, TLDNR. Andy brings the case against his friend Katie. Several years ago, he persuaded her to read his favorite fantasy series. She also agreed to finish the series by his birthday. The date has come and gone, but Katie has not completed the books. Should she pick up the pace? Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. In the fabled city of Shadizar, Sultry, Princess Tamaris hires Hodgman to recover the magical gem known as the Heart of Ahriman. Accompanied by the beautiful maiden, Jenna,

Hodgman must vanquish scheming, murderous Bambata, the princess's henchman, and face the sinister guardians of the horn, only to confront the foul and ancient, many-fanged demon god, Jesse. With Jenna's life and Hodgman's very soul at stake, Hodgman must truly be Hodgman the judger. Bailiff, demon god, Jesse, swear them in. Please rise and raise your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? I do. I do. Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling, despite the fact that he's already read all the books? I do. I do.

Very well, Judge Hodgman. It's true. I've read all the books, you guys. Read all. Name a book. Andy. Katie, name a book. The Gathering Storm.

Yeah, I read it. Andy, you try me. Mistborn? Yep, I read it. That's not in the series. It doesn't matter. I'm not just talking about this one series. I'm talking about all books.

Oh, all the books. You've read all books. Oh, okay. Andy and Katie, you may be seated for an immediate summary judgment in one of yours favors. Can you name the cultural reference that I made as I entered the courtroom? Hint, it refers to a book

which I've read. I think I have a guess. Should I go? Yeah, you go. I don't know. Maybe something like Conan the Barbarian? Incorrect. Katie?

I don't know. I appreciate your honesty, Katie. And Andy, I'm so glad you guessed wrong because you got very close. Oh, man. It is the book entitled Conan the Destroyer, novelization of the movie of the same name. The novelization of the movie of the same name, which I saw on the boardwalk of Ocean City, New Jersey, when it came out 30 years ago, plus some months, unbelievably. Because we were supposed to hear this back in June.

But then things happened, and now here we are in the, in the dead of winter talking about fantasy. This novelization of Conan, the destroyer was written by Robert Jordan, Andy. I guess I got the last part of it wrong. Was there a Conan book called Conan, the barbarian? Or was that just sort of the de facto? Because Robert E. Howard wrote a lot of Conan books. Was there one called Conan the Barbarian? I am not sure. It was just sort of an educated guess. I knew that Robert Jordan had written something with a Conan in it. I just didn't know the for sure full title. Whether he wrote other Conan the Barbarian books, he did write the novelization of the

Conan the Destroyer, but he was better known for having written what, Andy? The Wheel of Time. books. He did write the novelization of the Conan destroyer, but he was better known for having written what Andy, the wheel of time, the wheel of time cycle of how many books? 14 and a prequel. Now you bring this case against this woman that you claim to be your friend because you sentenced her to a horrible sentence. You ordered her to read all 14 books before your birthday, and she has not done so. And now you want me to what?

Compel her to what? I would love for her to be compelled to read the series or just admit a broken promise to the world. Because one thing to clarify is that I did not challenge her to this. She brought it up herself. She willingly entered this agreement without coercion. She just felt guilty, I think. Katie, is this true? That is true.

That is true. But he has not let me forget it ever since. Yeah, that's what happens with promises. Six months after his birthday, when I realized that I wasn't going to be able to finish it by his birthday because I I realized that I wasn't going to be able to finish it by his birthday, because I'd only finished one of the books, I did tell him it wasn't going to happen. So I warned him six months before his birthday that I was not going to read this series

all the way through. All right, let's get a little background here, first of all. Katie, how do you guys know each other? We were in theenary college choir together in shreveport louisiana so we went to college together all right and uh and so you're just friends right you were not in a romantic relationship then or now we are not no and uh and you are now graduated from college yes seems like you're not sure about it. I have gotten my master's and Andy's getting his master's right now. And where do you live now, Katie? I am back in Shreveport. And Andy, where do you live?

I live in Cambridge, Massachusetts. All right. And what was the university where you met? Centenary College. Centenary College of Louisiana. Centenary College of Louisiana. Centenary College of Louisiana. What kind of school is that? Is that a school of fantasy novel reading? Primarily. That's the main course of study. No, it's a small private liberal arts school. Oh, okay, cool. And you guys sang in choir together?

We did. Are there any other ways in which you are adorable that you would like to illuminate for our listenership now? You travel the world together? With the choir. Yes. The choir goes on an international tour every other year. And tell me where you went. Do you want me to answer that? Sure. You do the first trip and I'll do the second. Oh, okay. We went to Ireland and Wales our freshman year, and then Australia, New Zealand our junior year, and we sang in the Sydney Opera House. Now, Katie, you are clearly from the Americas.

Yes, I am from Arkansas. And your master's degree is in what? Library science. Library science, which is basically a degree in adorableness. Basically, yes. I'm a reference librarian at a community college. Okay. And Andy, you're getting a master's degree in what currently? In higher education.

All right. That's kind of boring. Anyway, I like library science better. I mean, good for you, but you know. Boring. Is that Harvard? Does that make it more interesting for you? It does not, sir. I was waiting how long it would take him to drop that name. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would. Let me let me let me tell you something right now. If you want to be among humans, don't ever do that again. OK, it's a very pompous thing to say, particularly to a podcast that is hosted by a Yale man. So, Katie, before Andy came into your life,

where did you grow up? Andy, You are not of the American South. I am of the American South. He's more South than I am. Yeah. Oh, you're in Cambridge because you're going to Harvard. That's right. You were being coy about it to begin with. Anybody who knows me knows that I do not like to drop that name in.

I just felt compelled. Anyway, where are you from? I am from Louisiana, the New Orleans area. Katie, before you met Andy, did you read a lot of fantasy novels? I did, but not hard fantasy like this. All right, tell me. This is a little bit more detailed than I'm used to. All right, this is a 14.

This is a very well-known in fantasy novel circles, 14 novel plus a prequel cycle of fantasy novels that were begun by a man whose real name was not Robert Jordan. That was his pen name. What was his real name, Andy? James Oliver Rigby Jr. Which is probably a much better fantasy novelist name, J.O. Rigby Jr. here with my latest potboiler, J.O. Rigby Jr. here with my latest potboiler than Robert Jordan, which sounds like a guy who starred in a television detective series in the early 60s that lasted for one season. And I was going to ask Andy to explain this story in some small detail,

but instead I'm going to put Katie to the test. You've at least read one of these books. Yeah, I've read four. Oh, you've read four. You've made a good showing. So what's the story with this story? Tell me a little bit of the setting, the plot. Just give us a little bit of a flavor for it.

And maybe you could also clarify for us the difference between hard fantasy and whatever the alternative to that is. Maybe she meant high fantasy? Oh, I did. I did. Oh, goodness gracious. I shouldn't have a degree. The high fantasy is going to be in a fantasy world that everything is magic. Whereas the soft fantasy usually is in like modern day

or the world that we know it, but with fantastical elements. And that's how I remember it. First of all, never apologize for not using the term high fantasy correctly. It's been a while since I did that class. I don't care if you do have an MLS degree. That is a normal way to be in the world. Don't let the nerds get you down. The reality is there

are sub genres within fantasy and science fiction. And you made a very reasonable mistake because in science fiction, there is a very specific sub genre, which is hard sci-fi, which is in some ways analogous, except sort of antipodal, because in hard sci-fi, it truly is speculative fiction based on scientific extrapolation of a particular scientific principle. Am I wrong, Andy, or am I right? I have no idea. That's right. I'm telling you a thing now. And high fantasy is your classic fantasy novel that is set in an alternate, usually sort of earth, with a somewhat medieval technology level with a bunch of magic involved. We're talking about basically a bunch of J.R.R. Tolkien ripoffs. That would be high fantasy.

Wrong or right, Andy? Yeah, partially. Yeah, right. Okay. I mean, I hate to call them ripoffs, but maybe they just like built on a foundation. There are a lot of similar elements. Yeah, I mean, the thing that's interesting about fantasy, genre fantasy to me, and I don't mean this to put them down, and ripoff is a pejorative term, but I don't mean it that much so much as it's, fantasy is an unusual genre in that while there were certainly fairy tales and stories set in fantastic settings, and you could argue that Alice in Wonderland was fantasy and so forth, the genre that we know as fantasy pretty much came to life out of the wrinkled brow of the weird linguist J.R.R. Tolkien. He defined the genre in many ways that

we understand fantasy to be now. Obviously, he was interpreting a tradition of ancient Norse Eddas and Beowulf and all that stuff, heroic journeys that had roots in mythology. But where he created a mythology and a world entirely out of whole cloth and populated it with hobbits and magicians, that became a genre that has worked within at this point now. Yes or no, Andy? Yes.

Oh, all right. Wow. I didn't mean to be such a nerd bully. I thought you were going to come back at me for that. I actually am not that much of a hardcore nerd. It's just this particular series and a few others that I really, really enjoy. So I'm going to defer to you on most things related to book murdery. Robert Jordan's works exist in a subgenre of high fantasy that I would posit would not exist without Tolkien as a predecessor, but that is left for debate another time. Katie, you tell me a little bit about the story and then we'll come back to you, Andy, and you can tell me why it's so important to you. Okay. Well, the story begins

with the main character is Randall Thor, and he is from Two Rivers, and he's just the everyday guy. And then some evil demon monster type things come to his city. And so he finds out he's kind of like this super mega awesome person who's going to fight like the pretty much like the devil character by the end and so he goes on a quest to like get ready for that along with his friends and there's a lot of like it's a huge world there's a lot of different like factions and people working against one another and against him and for him. So you never really know whose alliances are where. And it's very detailed and complicated, but enjoyable. I really do like the series a lot. living in a sort of medieval technology village in a sort of agricultural bucolic paradise,

discovers that he has been chosen by destiny to come into conflict with the greatest force for evil in the world, which is reawaking after a long time of it not asserting itself. And he learns this because dark forces come to the village and he realizes he has to leave the village or else that village will be overrun by the dark forces and he is marked for both death and destiny. Is that not so? It's shockingly creative.

Yeah, well. Yes, that's true. If I could ask for a point of clarification, this hero, would you say he has about a thousand faces? No. text, A Hero with a Thousand Faces, in which he kind of teases out the similarities of some of the great mythic stories of essentially boys' adventure. Well, I mean, that's just kind of the archetype. Well, right. That's what Joseph Campbell was. Joseph Campbell's A Hero with a Thousand Faces

is explaining the archetype and tracing its uh its uh lineage through all of these different stories both in high and low culture and ancient and modern culture right and that's why star wars is the same as lord of the rings and is the same as wheel of time because they're all stealing from each other a and b they all represent the archetype of the hero of a thousand faces and so on all right yeah. Yeah. So all of our points are made, right? This sounds a lot like a lot of other stories. So since it does, and since Lord of the Rings, since Lord of the Rings already existed before Robert Jordan even wrote a word of these things, why does this particular story have such a hold on your life, Andy? I mean, it really just has to do with the fact that it caught me at a time in high school

and my whole group of friends, actually. We just started reading this series and we had just sort of dabbled in other series beforehand. And then somehow this just like caught us at the right time and the right place. What'd you dabble in beforehand? What was your gateway drug? Epic of Gilgamesh. I think I had read The Hobbit at some point. I read like other more accessible things like I guess Harry Potter.

Yeah, I'd read Harry Potter stuff before that. How old are you? How old am I now? 26 oh right of course in high school you were reading harry potter before you even discovered oh my my apologies for my age sir no it's just it's just there, you know, that, okay. Yes. What someone of your age could have discovered Harry Potter before they discovered this thing. And they can, they, you're, you're, you're living time backwards. Like Merlin. Have you ever read the Lord of the Rings?

Yes or no? No. Have you, you have not read the Lord of the Rings? I have not read the Lord of the Rings. I tried once. No, no, no. I understand. Yeah.

Well, look, I did too. It took me a long time before I finally read that thing. And then I realized I don't ever have to read anything exactly like this ever again. I love it. I love it. Don't get me wrong. Right. But if you had read Lord of the Rings, and you were like me,

then you would not be going like, hmm, how can I read the exact same thing? Only longer. Only longer. Only longer. Katie, have you read The Lord of the Rings? No, just one of them. Did you ever read, so I started out by asking, did you ever read any of this stuff before Andy came into your life? What, like the Wheel of Time series?

Yeah. Did you ever read any high fantasy, as they say? No, I didn't. I mean, I read Harry Potter. I was a big Harry Potter fan. You were a big Harry Potter fan when you were seven or whatever. How old are you? I'm also 26.

So I was in middle school when I started reading. And you're a master of library science. I am. So you got to like books. I do. I love books. If you didn't have a friend who was forcing you to read 11,000 pages of this stuff, what would you, what would you be passing the time with? What is she passing the time with you mean? Oh, I know that's your accusation,

right? You're mad at Katie. You're mad at Katie, Andy, because she's, she's not just reading Robert Jordan books to make you happy. She occasionally dabbles in something that gives her pleasure. Like what, what are you, what are you reading instead of, instead of doing your duty and reading the wheel of time? From the time I started the first wheel of time book, I've read 38 non wheel of time. Man, I love that you are garfunkeling this thing. Whoa. How long has this been going on, you guys?

When were you supposed to have been done with the 14 plus the prequel novel of Wheel of Time? Summer of 2010, I said that I told him I would start Wheel of Time after I graduated from grad school because I needed to focus on my studies. So that would have been 2012. 2012. So since 2012. But I didn't start it until January of 2013. Starting January of 2013.

And we are recording this now at the end of 2014. So two years, you have conquered four novels and Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series and 38 other novels. Yes. Which I feel like isn't that much. I was actually kind of embarrassed that it was only 38. So Andy, you feel betrayed that she's been reading all these other novels instead of keeping up with her promise to you. I do, I do. Why is it important to you that she read all 11,916 pages now before your next birthday? Because that was in your petition,

that she honor her obligation to read all 14 books plus the prequel by your next birthday, since you already missed the previous deadlines, which is next May 2015, right? Do I have that right? April. April. All right, fine. And now we know that she's perfectly capable of it because she reads about seven novels a day. Right. Now we know that she's perfectly capable of it because she reads about seven novels a day.

Right. Why is it so important to you that Katie read these almost 12,000 pages of Tolkien pastiche before you turned 28? So it's important to me because as I was saying before, these books were like really influential to me in high school and my group of friends. Yeah, in high school. Well, wait. Okay. Sorry. I thought I was thinking that to myself. like really influential to me in high school and my group of friends in high school well wait okay sorry i thought i thought i thought i was thinking that to myself um yeah yeah so it was really important and like for the first time i felt like i was sort of a big time fan of something and really caught up in this world that I felt like could legitimately exist in full detail, like outside of the mind of the creator, almost it was that detailed. And so we could just talk about it for

hours and analyze things and actually see connections between what he was saying in there to the real world and different cultures and problems with society and all this stuff. You and your high school friends. Yeah, yeah. You know, and jazz band, Fifth Hour, we're not doing anything, that sort of thing. What a word painting you have just painted for me. You're welcome. You came to college and you met Katie. Right. And you thought, here's a friend. I want to share a little bit of myself with her. Right. Here's a 12,000 page reader's manual to my heart.

with her. Right. Here's a 12,000 page reader's manual to my heart. Something like that. Something like that. I mean, we met in college and became very good friends. Like we are friends on a deep level. She's my, my best friend. And so we share a lot of things in culture together. Like if we watch a movie that we like, you know, the other one will watch it. She recommended book of lost things to me. And so I read that as a d you know, the other one will watch it. She recommended Book of Lost Things to me. And so I read that as a dutiful, dutiful friend. Um, and so how long, how long is that? 12,000 pages or so? Um, a little, a little bit less, maybe, maybe like 300, 200. It's probably two or 300,000. No, just a hundred. Um, yeah. So we just share a lot of interests and culture and always are discussing things. And she's like my go to person for that sort of thing.

And so whenever she offered herself, it was actually I feel pretty early on in our college career that she was like, yeah, I'll talk about this series all the time. I'm going to read that one day. And then later it kept getting honed further and further to, okay, after college, okay, after grad school, okay, maybe in the beginning of 2013, okay, maybe by your birthday next year. Right. I'm unfairly portraying you as the person who has forced this issue, Andy, because it does sound to me, Katie, as though you got yourself into this mess. I did. It's true. And I am enjoying the series. I want to stress that. I'm really enjoying the series.

But when I first started, I didn't realize it was as detailed as it was. And for some reason, it's taken me a long time to read each book. And also from the way Andy and his high school friends, who some of them also went to college with us, the way they described it, I knew that a lot of like tiny details would pop up later. So I have read it very slowly and kind of more in depth. So I would pick up those things later on. Why is that pace unreasonable to you, Andy? Well, mainly because she said she offered up a day that she would have 10 of the 14 books read girl made a promise to me and is not fulfilling promise there you go there you go and also i mean it's just been so long now that it's been on the table for like seven years seven plus years that it's just sort of i want to get to the point where we can talk about the cool plot twists and we can share things like for instance one

thing that we've been saying back and forth to each other at different times is the wheel weaves as the wheel wills, which is a phrase from the book that just applies to life in so many different ways and is so much better than, you know, life's not fair or whatever. Do you have that as a tattoo anywhere on your body? I should. No, no, you shouldn't. No, no, no, no no no no no no no robert jordan passed away before he could finish the cycle of books as he saw fit to finish them is that not correct andy that is correct someone even finished the series May he rest in peace. She's a fighter. She's a chaotic neutral fighter, I would say.

Is that right? Chaotic neutral? Oh, God. I'm going to get so. First of all, if I got chaotic neutral, I'm wrong. But you know what I'm talking about. Chaotic neutral. I think that's probably good.

That's probably right. And second of all, you know, when I refer to these books as 12,000 pages of Tolkien pastiche, that is not fair. I acknowledge that. People love these books. I had never read them when this case initially crossed my desk back in the spring of this year, since in order to prepare myself, I bought a bunch of the comics they're now doing as a comic book serialization, because I wasn't going to have a chance to read 12,000 pages before I heard the case. your birth your birthday isn't a day of magic alignment where the five moons line up and shine a special light onto your onto your forehead and or you know onto the shard of the dark crystal that gives you special powers if enough people have read the wheel of time books well the wheel will as the wheel weaves or whatever. You know what I mean? It's like things happen in their own time. And I didn't have time to read all 14 books. So I read about eight of the comics and I'm like, yeah, all right, fine.

I mean, I love them, but they're the comics. All right. So I, but I acknowledge that, that people love these books. There's something that clearly resonates with you in these books and may even be resonating with Katie that we're going to establish in a moment and that you love them and, and, and the people in the world love them. So you don't get mad when I refer to them as Tolkien pastiche,

although you got to admit, you got to admit Tolkien did it first. That's another story. All right. Uh, Katie, why just, why'd you stop reading? haven't stopped reading i just

i am not reading them as as quickly as i would have thought they're very detailed and it's more there's so many characters and so many places and so many plot lines happening at once like it's it's just taking me longer don't, I feel kind of embarrassed saying that because I feel like a fairly educated person and he read these in high school, but for some reason it's just taken me a bit longer. They're for high school, but they're for high school boys who have, who have nothing else going on in their lives. All right. You're in a relationship with another adult. Yes. You do not have children? I do not have children. You do have a job? I do. You acknowledge that your life is different than what it was like in high school? Yes. All right.

You are reading, how long is each book? Each book is about 900, 800 or 900 pages. And it takes you about how long to finish a book? Reading as carefully as you can to honor your friend, Andy? Two months, but then I do read quite a few books in between. Let's say conservatively, three months per book. Okay. And you've done four. So you got 11 more to go.

Yes. So another 33 months. and more to go. Yes. So another 33 months. So before, before you and Andy can finally have the conversation that he wants to have with you, which we do have conversations as I'm reading them, we do have conversations. Yeah. But don't you understand? It's not enough for Andy. He needs you to be done now. Yeah. Andy, I'm just trying to ascertain, do you really need her to finish all these books by her birthday, excuse me, by your birthday in order to have the full relationship that you want to have with her? Or do you want her to finish by her, by your birthday? Because she said she was gonna. Um, I mean, uh, honestly, I guess more of the second one, but he said she was gonna she said she was going to. And it's now the year after when she said she was going to.

baseline or bottom line argument is sort of if your wife had promised that she would watch the third man and that she would do it, watch like 10 14ths of it or five sevens of it by a given date, wouldn't you want that to have occurred? She, first of all, she would never make that promise. She never has made that promise and she has never watched the third man and she's my wife. But if she had, she's not a person that I know. Your friend, a dear friend,

dear friend. She is a dear friend, but you know that we went through, if you listen to the podcast that closely, then you know, we went through this very similar situation with regard to the Game of Thrones books, which

I read, and to my surprise, as an adult, became utterly a huge part of my life. Have you read those books? I've listened to the audiobooks, and Andy got a little upset at me.

Yeah, she listened to them during the time she's supposed to be reading Wheel of Time. No, I listened to them on car trips. I listened to them in the car and like during work. Well, the Wheel of Time is on tape as well. It's too long. Would you accept her listening to the audio book of the Wheel of Time is fulfilling her obligations? I would. I would.

Have you read the game? Andy, have you read the game of Thrones books? I have not. Will you read them by my birthday? When is your birthday? June 3rd. Every year.

It would have to be the, not this upcoming one, but the next. No, it has to be this one. Cause we have to, I have to share this with you. This is exactly what I said to my wife.

I said, you would enjoy these and I would love to talk to you about them. And the moment I said you would enjoy this, her brain automatically said, I will never enjoy this because of that. That is the nature of our relationship. But, and I accepted that because she's another human being who has her own sets of tastes and her own set of priorities when it comes to taking in culture. And one of those priorities for her was to watch Friday Night Lights,

a popular television show about a sport called football. And also all the characters and everybody. You know, it's more than just about football. Everyone loves that show so much they keep saying, you hate sports, but you'll like this. Fine. If I am going to watch a show about football, which I am willing to do, I will do it so long as my wife reads the first Game of Thrones book, Game of Thrones. That was our deal. That was a deal that we struck, Andy, because we were both sacrificing something with the

possibility of benefiting from it down the road, right? She read that first Game of Thrones book. I would watch all of Friday Night Lights. Guess what? I haven't watched Friday Night Lights, and I guarantee you I never will, because she's never going to read that Game of Thrones book ever, ever, ever, ever. She'll watch The Third Man a million times before she finishes that Game of Thrones book, because it's not her thing. That's not even the situation that you're in, sir. You have a friend who is reading this

thing at a reasonable pace. Are you familiar with the Neil Gaiman term? Now, this is a family podcast, so I'm going to make a somewhat PG-13 word here. So if your kids are driving the car, cover their ears. You familiar with what Neil Gaiman said about George R.R. Martin to the readers of the Game of Thrones books that were upset that George R.R. Martin was not writing them fast enough? I am not. George R.R. Martin, he said to the internet george rr martin is not your bitch sorry to get blunt but the point he was making was the george rr martin yes may be watching jets games and traveling to uh fantasy conventions

and uh maybe eating food and showering from time to time instead of writing more books. But that is what he needs to do in order to be a human being, the human being who creates the things that you love. There is no contract between you and George R.R. Martin such that you can yell at him for having a whole life, because if he did not have that whole life, he would not be able to write the things that he loves. I just wasn't sure if you were aware of that concept. Sure. I mean, I'm aware of it. I just feel like there was a verbal contract made. And so, in my mind, there

is a contract. But I admittedly said six months later that I wouldn't be able to uphold said contract. Right. And that she filed, she filed, she filed for her high fantasy bankruptcy. I did. I did.

I threw the towel in. I knew it wasn't going to work. And I've continued to read them just slowly and in between other things. Have you been doing a bit of a slowdown? The more he pushes, the more you slow it down. No, no. I don't doing a bit of a slowdown? The more he pushes, the more you slow it down? No, no. I don't push all that much, do I? I'm on a podcast right now.

You took her to court. I mean, a little. Okay, push a little. But I am enjoying them. And I guess it kind of gets funny the more time goes by. It's all just a joke to her, Judge. I know. I think I've heard everything I need.

I am now going to go back into my tower of the hand where I will contemplate this matter in my solar and I will render my judgment in a moment. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman exits the courtroom. Katie, how are you feeling about your chances in this case? I'm feeling pretty good, but I also feel like a jerk. So there's that. Do you understand, Katie, the significance of any dispute in which you can reasonably make the claim that one person didn't like Game of Thrones

because it wasn't long enough. People say that. I don't know. Andy, how are you feeling about your chances? Oh, not all that great. But I came in knowing it may be an uphill battle. But, you know, maybe the sort of offered up contract will will be the bottom line and go in my favor. We'll see. We'll see what Judge John Hodgman has to say about it when we come back in just a second.

Please rise as Judge John. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Hodgman. You're listening to Judge John Hodgman. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. Of course, the Judge John Hodgman podcast always brought to you by you, the members of MaximumFun.org. Thanks to everybody who's gone to MaximumFun.org slash join, and you can join them by going to MaximumFun.org slash join. The Judge John Hodgman podcast is also brought to you this week by our pals over at Made In. Jesse, you've heard of Tom Colicchio, the famous chef, right? Yeah, from the restaurant Kraft.

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hodgman re-enters the courtroom okay Okay, first of all, I need to let everyone know that they all owe me a debt of gratitude because I saved George R. R. Martin's life. At the season premiere of the television show Game of Thrones, they had a screening and a party to which I was invited. How do you like them apples, Harvard? I got to go to the Game of Thrones premiere. To which I was invited. How do you like them apples, Harvard? I got to go to the Game of Thrones premiere.

And I went to the party. I met George R.R. Martin before in my life. Very sweet guy, wonderful dude. I may have had conversations with him that distracted him briefly from writing more books. Sorry, nerds. He wasn't writing the moment that I was talking to him. But at the party, which was at the Museum of the natural history here in New York city, George R. Martin,

who had had a couple of glasses of wine. I spied him in the, in the great hall of the museum of natural history, standing wobbly at the top of a huge flight of marble stairs. I ran up there. His, his heel was an inch away from the top stair. And he was laughing merrily. Why? Like Robert Baratheon himself. And I grabbed him and I moved him away from the top of those

stairs. I said, excuse me, Mr. Martin, the internet would not forgive me if I allowed you to stand here any longer because you were putting yourself at risk. If it had not been for me, I'm sure you would have gone down those stairs. So you're welcome, nerds. Two, I got in trouble on Twitter recently when I said anyone who disagreed with me that the movie Moonrise Kingdom is a perfect film. I just say I believe Kingdom is a perfect film. I just say, I believe it is a perfect film.

If you disagree with me, you may unfollow me immediately. A lot of people get angry with me. Some of them just said, you're wrong. So through my own podcast in my face saying you cannot force people to like something that people like what they like. One of the foundational premises of this podcast, to which I reply,

yes, of course, people like what they like. That doesn't make Moonrise Kingdom less perfect. It is a perfect movie. I'm not saying that you have to like it, but it is perfectly executed. Everything expresses a single vision so perfectly it sometimes is difficult to watch. It fits together so perfectly. I challenge any one of you to name a flaw that it fails on its own premises, to name a single flaw in that movie. The only flaw that you could name in Moonrise Kingdom, and plenty could name this flaw, is that it should not exist. Right? Some people don't like it and say it shouldn't exist at all,

but you can't say, I tried to do something and failed. It's perfect. Does that mean you have to watch it, Katie? Does it mean you have to watch it, Katie? Does it mean you have to watch it, Andy? No. Does it mean you have to unfollow me? Yes, of course you do. You have to unfollow me if you don't agree that Mariah's Kingdom is a perfect movie. You cannot compel someone to like something.

And you cannot compel someone to watch or read a thing that is important to you just because it is important to you. You can compel to read something or to watch something in a fair exchange. You can pay them, you can bet them, you can dare them, but do not ask them or even accept their offer in exchange for nothing and expect compliance because that's just a favor. That's not a contract. Katie, you made a promise and you have broken it and you acknowledge that you broke that promise. This is what happens in adult life.

And now Andy is asking you to keep your promise. But Andy, let me tell you something that very, very few people in the world will tell you. Certainly not parents. Parents always say, never hurts to ask. It always hurts to ask. If you ask someone to do something

that you want them to do, it hurts you, right? It hurts you in the moment because you are spending some of your credibility on a favor, a pure favor that is not going to be paid back in any other way other than compliance with your wishes. You are forcing someone to do something benignly against their will, but you are still asking, you are still lowering yourself in status in order to get something that you want. And the other way that it hurts to ask, especially if you ask someone

to read something or watch something that you care about, is the risk, the profound wound that will open in your soul when you realize they don't like it the same way you do, because guess what? They're a different person. They're a different person who's experiencing the culture in a different way at a different stage of their life. You can get, you can ask Katie to finish this by your next birthday. But you may not get what you want. And I would say it's almost impossible that you will. The things that you like are the things that you like. You're never going to get back fifth period of jazz band.

You know what I mean? Like you're never going to get that moment back. Katie's never going to give you that same feeling back that when you read that book the first time. And it's unfair to ask her to relive it on your behalf so that you can get that feeling back. This is part of growing up. This is part of our ongoing and changing experience with culture. If I watch The Third Man again tonight, I might not like it the same way. If I forced, as I've realized from the first date that we went on, if I forced my wife to watch The Third Man, there's no way that she was going to enjoy it in the way that I hoped that she would. Making a book recommendation is one thing. Making a book demand is another. If Katie had said to you,

I will read all 14 plus prequel volumes of Wheel of Time, including the ones that were written after the author's own death, by your birthday, if you watch Breaking Bad and you had watched Breaking Bad, then of course I would order her to finish those dumb books. But as it is, there's no contract here. There's no agreement. There was simply a promise that has been broken as all adults who live in the real non-fantasy world break all the time.

And in this real world, that kind of disappointment is born. It is not something that is avenged, but it is born with understanding and affection for the adorable friend that you love. She's reading the books. She's reading them at her own pace. She's reading them, frankly, at a much healthier clip than I have ever read a book in my life. And soon enough, in about 33 months, you'll get Jazz Band back or not. But the more you push, the more fun she will have slow walking the reading of these books and driving you crazy. Therefore, for the sake of your adorable friendship,

and for the sake of common decency, here as you stand before me, as I sit in the Iron Throne, King's justice is such that I rule in favor of Katie. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge Sean Hodgman rules, that is all. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the court. Andy, how do you feel right now? Oh, you know, a little bit defeated, but I feel like on some inner level,

I understood what the judge said all along. So I completely respect that. And hopefully in time, you know, she will read the books and it will be something we can talk about. Have you ever seen Babe Pig in the City? course what about classic pootie tang have you seen pootie tang i've not willing to watch it by your birthday sure katie how are you feeling right now i am feeling good but i, I feel kind of bad for Andy. I feel like he got a bad, he got a tongue lashing, but I am glad that the judge said that I could read the series at my

own pace and didn't give me a deadline. Katie, to be fair, Andy pretty much earned his tongue lashing, don't you think? Well, I did. I broke a promise and he he was wanting me to stick to it. And I think the birthday was just kind of an arbitrary like deadline. He just wants a deadline. Don't you apologize for this monster? I just because I brought up the birthday thing. But Katie, Andy, thank you so much for joining us on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Thank you. It's a pleasure. Hello, teachers and faculty.

This is Janet Varney. I'm here to remind you that listening to my podcast, The JV Club with Janet Varney, is part of the curriculum for the school year. Learning about the teenage years of such guests as Alison Brie, Vicki Peterson, John Hodgman, and so many more is a valuable and enriching experience. One you have no choice, but to embrace because yes, listening is mandatory.

The JV club with Janet Varney is available every Thursday on maximum fun or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you. And remember, no running in the halls. If you need a laugh and you're on the go, try S-T-O-P-P-O-D-C-A-S-T-I-R. Were you trying to put the name of the podcast there? Yeah, I'm trying to spell it, but it's tricky. Let me give it a try. Okay. put the name of the podcast there yeah i'm trying to spell it but it's tricky let me give it a try okay if you need a laugh and you're on the go call s-t-o-p-p-b-a-d-i it'll never fit no it will let me try if you need a laugh and you're on the go try s-t-o-p-p-b-d-c-o-o oh we are so close

stop podcasting yourself a podcast from from MaximumFun.org. If you need a laugh, then you're on the go. Judge John Hodgman. What? Who calls me from my tower of the hand? I was just trying to come up with some cool stuff for you to do before your birthday. First of all, start loving sports. Yeah, watch every game of 162-game baseball season.

More if your favorite team makes the playoffs. Okay. I've already seen Babe Pig in the City. Yeah. What about Pootie Tang? Have you ever seen Pootie Tang? I haven't. I'll see it by your birthday. When is your birthday, Jesse? April 24th. April 24th. All right. That's Pootie Tang deadline day. Great. Done and done. This week's episode's title was suggested by Joseph Wang. If you want to suggest the title for a Judge John Hodgman episode, like Judge John Hodgman on Facebook.

Just go to Facebook and search for Judge John Hodgman. You can also join the MaximumFun.org Facebook group at Facebook.com slash MaximumFun.org. You can follow us on Twitter. I'm at Jesse Thorne. John is at Hodgman. H-O-D-G-M-A-N. You got it. Hashtag your tweets.

Hashtag JJ Ho. Join us on Reddit at MaximumFun.reddit.com, where there's always a lively discussion of each and every Judge John Hodgman episode. You can also discuss the show on our forum at forum.maximumfun.org. Our show is produced by Julia Smith, edited by Mark McConville. I think that's about it. We'll talk to you next time on the Judge John Hodgman podcast. Court is a learned.

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