Judge John Hodgman - To Tree Or Not To Tree

Episode Date: December 20, 2010

A married couple disagrees: when should the Christmas decorations go up? That is the question. Skakespeare.

it's the judge john hodgman podcast i'm jesse thorn this week before we get to our main judgment uh we have to clear the docket i'm joined by judge john hodgman in chambers hello bailiff jesse hello judge hodgman why don't you sit down there uh beside the little bonfire that i've made that is a lovely bonfire, Judge Hodgman. Would you like some eggnog or spiced rum? I would love some nog. Can I have one of those gingerbread cookies? Um, no.

Fair enough. Judge Hodgman, we have received via electronic mail two disputes that need judgment that we just simply don't have time for on the court calendar. Oh, they've applied for the fast judge option? They have. Here's the first dispute. It's from Ari. He is from Iceland, but lives in Sweden.

Okay. He says, my girlfriend and I had probably one of our biggest disputes about a year ago. Shortly before Christmas, we were discussing films dealing with the holiday, and I suggested Die Hard as a pure Christmas classic. She wasn't too interested in seeing a Bruce Willis action movie, but since I called it a Christmas film, she relented. In short, she didn't like it. Furthermore, she was enraged that I would call it a Christmas film. This wouldn't bother me if not for the fact that she calls Home Alone a Christmas film. For me, they're pretty much the

same movie. A main character has to go through a huge physical conflict centered on a group of thieves only to find out that family is what's most important. So, am I wrong? Isn't Die Hard as much a Christmas classic as Home Alone? Ari from Iceland. Oh, that's a very simple one. Die Hard is a Christmas film and has always been one. How do we know? Well, it takes place at Christmas. As well, it has the very touching message that I think any American would respond to, never mind a Swedish Icelander. And three, and most importantly, it starts with Christmas in Hollis by Run DMC. That's what they're listening to in the car on the way to the building. Obviously, it's a Christmas film.

I didn't even know that Home Alone took place at Christmas. But Die Hard and Die Hard-er are both set at Christmastime and revolve around themes of family, togetherness, and foiling terrorists. I don't think it gets much more Christmassy than that. I mean, the big mistake in the Die Hard franchise, frankly, was abandoning the Christmastime setting. I hope they get back to that with Die Hard 5. And I hope that I get to be the villain in it.

Here's a question from Peter of Memphis, Tennessee. Hi, Peter. My friend Chris and I just engaged in a heated argument over whether one's Christmas tree should be real or fake. He contends that a real tree is essential to a proper celebration of the holiday. I think he could not be more wrong, as I have managed to celebrate 30 Christmases using only a fake tree. So, is a fake tree a real Christmas celebration? Well, I hate to break it to you, Peter,

but the 30 Christmases that you've so-called celebrated while using a fake tree do not count as Christmas. In fact, you have never celebrated Christmas because a fake tree just will not cut it. The whole point is to bring nature into your home, particularly in evergreen, worshipped by the druids for their reminder of springtime and darkest winter. And you need to

have that actual tree there staring at you throughout the dark winter period to give you hope to go on and then you have to slowly kill it in order to gain strength to move on to the next year. That's what having a Christmas tree is all about. Well, it has been decided.

I'm going to head out into the courtroom and get things started on our main dispute. Great. I'm just going to lie down here on the floor and have a little nap before we start. Fair enough. It's the Judge Sean Hodgman Podcast. I'm bailiff Jesse Thorne. This week's case, to tree or not to tree? Jason and Brandy of Huntsville, Alabama, are a married couple, Catholics, who celebrate Advent during the Christmas season. Jason, who brings the case, argues that it's un-Advent-tageous to put up Christmas decorations before Christmas Eve.

advantageous to put up Christmas decorations before Christmas Eve. The respondent, Brandy, argues that Christmas decorations should go up starting December 1st. Only one man can decide. Please rise as Judge John Hodgman enters the courtroom. Thank you very much, Bailiff Jesse. You may be seated. Bailiff Jesse, would you please swear at the disputants, please? Jason and Brandy, if you would rise and lift your right hands. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God or whatever? We do. We do.

Do you swear to abide by Judge John Hodgman's ruling despite the fact that he has no legal training or expertise? Certainly we do. Yes. You may be seated. That was very exciting. Dual swearing in. A double swear. I thought we could save a little time and also amp up the intensity. I like how you say, this time we deal with a married couple. That's all we ever deal with.

This is getting to be the marriage riff. Married couples tend to live in the same house and so it's easy to get them on the line together. Thank you, bailiff Jesse. That makes a lot of sense now that you explain it. Who is the complainant in this situation? Your Honor, I am the plaintiff. Your name is Jason? Yes, Your Honor. And what is your complaint exactly? My lovely wife, who I rarely have disagreements with, she wants to start putting up Christmas decorations the first week of December. And I want to, in the spirit of Advent, which is a almost penitential, a little more preparation

type season, in anticipation of Christmas, I don't want to start celebrating Christmas until Christmas Eve, which is our tradition as Catholics. I see. For me, it would be like having an entree brought out and then you just sprinkle cake and ice cream on it. Is that not part of your Catholic mass? No, it is not actually. Not since Vatican II.

I must have misunderstood. I apologize. That explains why I was kicked out of that church. And Brandy, you are the defendant. Yes, I am. How do you respond to Jason's complaint? Well, I want to put up decorations and be able to enjoy them like everyone else in the neighborhood, community, world even. I don't want to wait until Christmas Eve to put everything up

because you go find a Christmas tree on Christmas Eve, you're going to end up having a Charlie Brown Christmas tree. It's hard to find stuff. I don't think it interferes with Advent. We can still celebrate Advent and enjoy our Christmas decorations.

Jason, I am a double-lapsed Catholic myself. My parents were practicing Catholics until they stopped practicing, I guess because they got it right. And I was not raised particularly in any church, although I am Catholic by cultural association. I have the appetites of a Catholic and the guilt of a Catholic.

But that does not mean that I am an expert on the practice of the Catholic religion. that does not mean that I am an expert on the practice of the Catholic religion. So when you talk about Advent, what are you talking about? Because I'm talking about little calendars with little doors in them

that have candies or Playmobiles in them. Well, I certainly don't exclude that. Okay. But I'm actually speaking more of the liturgical celebration of Advent,

which usually starts four weeks before Christmas. Oh, I'm sorry. Go on. I'm sorry. And four weeks before Christmas. Oh, I'm sorry. And then there are explosions. That's a Catholic church that I remember. It's the four weeks before Christmas. The sort of liturgical activities and socle readings all lead up to sort of representing the first Advent of Christ, the birth of Christ, and looking forward

to his second coming. And we also talk about the end of the world and death during this time. Oh, well, let's get down to that. When do you predict it coming? Winter solstice 2012, right? Yeah, no, I don't speculate on that. All right. Well, I'm telling, I'm explaining to you winter solstice 2012.

It's in every book. Thank you. So yes, you should be contemplating your fate. I agree. But where, since when has this been a practice in your family since you were a kid of not putting on decorations until Christmas Eve? Well, I actually have to confess that I'm actually a lapsed Baptist. I'm actually a lapsed Baptist. I'm actually a convert to the Catholic faith. Did you convert in order to marry your wife, Brandy?

I did not. We are really going to get into it now. Let's talk about your faith. If you guys don't mind, I hope you don't mind me coming into your living room today because I'd like to talk to you about Jesus. Okay, so you were a Baptist. Yes. And I presume that that means that you had, you did have a Christmas tree growing up,

but you decorated it with snakes. Is that right? No, that would be Pentecostals of various kinds. We did have a Christmas tree and we just put it up at the beginning of December and didn't really think much about the religious aspects of Christmas. Now, when did you convert to Catholicism? Officially the Easter Vigil of 2006. Very good.

I don't mean to make fun of your faith. No, I don't feel like you are. I think faith is a very mysterious thing and a very personal thing and a very powerful thing. But as we're talking about today, the way that faith expresses itself in tinsel and decoration and popcorn balls tends to be a little arbitrary and weird. Now, Brandy, how long have you been married to Jason? 17 years. 17 years. And were you raised a Catholic?

No, I was not, but there are Catholics in my family. And do you consider yourself a Catholic now? Yes, I am a Catholic. And the Catholics in your family, do they practice this ritual of leaving a bare, creepy tree in their living rooms? No, no, they don't. It's rather unusual. Here's the thing.

I make fun of it, Jason, and I make fun of you, because it's rather unusual. I have not heard of this custom before, and I've grown up in a lot of, I grew up in Catholic families. I've attended a lot of late-night wassails at Catholic homes. And indeed, the very, very Catholic Mass every Sunday, father of one of my dearest friends, is usually putting a tree up and decorating it by about May.

He loves Christmas so much. And will just sit around with eggnog in his hand, humming Christmas carols to himself for much of the summer. So it is not something that I'm particularly aware of. Is there any precedent for this idea, or is this your idea? I don't think it's my idea. I think it may be an older idea that has fallen out of fashion. Oh, I see. So historical lost branch, so to speak, of Catholicism. That's possible.

Now, as a Catholic, I presume that you guys do not give each other gifts. Is that correct? We actually do give each other gifts. Well, but the Catholic Church banned the giving of gifts in the Middle Ages because it reminded them of pagan holidays. Well, I'll have to get with my bishop on that. I'm not clear on the regulations there. Yeah, I'd like to. Maybe we could get your bishop on the line. Does your bishop have Skype?

I don't know. Are you aware that the Christmas tree itself is not originally a Catholic tradition? Yes. When the Catholic Church took over the management of the Western Roman Empire, we inherited a lot of neat stuff. The Christmas tree, largely, there are competing explanations as to where the Christmas tree comes from. One of them is that St. Boniface cut down a Germanic tree known to the region as the Thor's tree. It was a pagan worship tree in order to mess with their god and discovered within its heart a fir tree. This is very unlikely.

Fir trees very rarely grow in the middle of oak trees. But it is largely considered to be a Protestant Germanic tradition, dating back to the Middle Ages, and was not even really brought into homes outside of the Rhineland traditionally until Queen Victoria put a Christmas tree up to honor her weird German husband Prince Albert in 1842. And of course they decorated it with the heads of their enemies and cold cuts. So that until then no one certainly in America had ever really thought that much about Christmas trees.

So you see, people are making this stuff up as they go along, as they will. And I respect the fact that you have a new tradition, but this is a strange and seemingly ungenerous one. I'm not ruling it. I'm not ruling it. I'm just thinking it over. How do you respond to that? Well, my wife is mostly German. And I also, I'm not just talking about the Christmas tree. I mean, I'm talking about all Christmas decorations in general. But I will take your point on the origin of the Christmas tree. Brandy, let me ask you a question. Okay. How long has this been going on?

About four years. So up until about four years ago, there was harmony? Yes. You'd get the tree, you'd put up the decorations? Nothing was said, you know. It was all fine and good. What do you do now? We don't even have a tree yet. Jason.

The only thing I have up in the house that's Christmas related is our advent wreath and a little tiny nativity scene. Do you keep it in your closet so that you can't see it? And behind a little secret door by your bed, you sneak in there and have a little Christmas time? Yes. While he sits on the edge of the bed telling you about when the Catholic Church took over the management of the Western Roman Empire?

We have conversations like that quite often. Sounds very, very Christmassy, I have to say. Yeah. Now, I understand that Jason offered you a compromise of some kind? Yeah, and for some reason, my wife, this is a zero-sum game for her. I said, let's slowly begin to decorate. Do you know what? We are talking about religion.

Most religions are zero-sum games. Point taken. So, yeah, we decorate slowly, and that way it builds to a crescendo. Slowly, like as if you're underwater, you move very slowly, like mimes? Yes.

But I don't have time to decorate slowly, because I'll work. We have two teenage don't have time to decorate slowly because i'll work we have two teenage boys who also want to decorate for christmas this is beginning to sound like a flannery o'connor short story yeah you know it's like this whole family all this family wants to do is celebrate christmas but dad is saying no we must think about death and the end of the world until christmas eve and then guess what popcorn balls it's a real it's a roller coaster it's a liturgy it's a theological roller coaster over there uh i and but but here's the thing i need to clarify so you've suggested actually first of all getting a tree uh to honor the pagan gods and the druidic rituals that are at Christmastime, and then decorating it slowly, like one bauble per day or something like that?

Yes. You've rejected this compromise in theory and in practice. Brandy, why? It's ridiculous. Who wants to come into a home and see, like, three Christmas balls on the tree? I mean, seriously. You want everything your way. I do. Well, that's the Christmas spirit. It's hard to argue with that. I don't ask for much.

So I think Brandy just made her closing statement, which was, I don't ask for much. Jason, would you like to make your closing statement? Yes. I'm going to make an appeal for the greater good of humanity now, not just for my household, because my household is of little consequence in the grand scheme. This form of geekery, this liturgical geekery, is so rare that I believe it must be preserved in the geek ecosystem. So I think much like an Indian reservation or a hunting preserve, you have to help me keep this flame alive.

And I would like to add, for the record, only in the interest of completeness, that when we were sworn in, I swore in on a copy of the areas of my expertise and more information you require, which make great Christmas gifts. Well, thank you very much. That was a very flattering plug. And I appreciate that you seem to be willing to convert to yet another religion. And the holy books of that religion are already in your home so i think you're ready to uh to join the hajmanian sect where we do whatever we want and we don't ask for much all right uh all right i think i have all the information then that i need to make my ruling i'm going to go into chambers and I will come back in a moment. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom.

Now I have to ask the two of you a couple of questions. First of all, Brandy, your husband seemed to make a more complex argument than you. How do you feel you stand with Judge Sean Hodgman considering his decision? I think I have a pretty good case. I mean, you know, the first week of Advent, I heard him in the kitchen humming Silver Bells. And I, you know, pointed that out to him. You caught him. I did.

That's inadmissible as evidence, though, because... Yeah, so... Well, Jason and Brandy, please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman reenters the courtroom. You may be seated. I've been giving this a lot of thought. this a lot of thought. You know, I really came into this obviously prejudiced against anti-Christmas cheer people. Until Jason, you appealed to my liturgical

geekery. Geekery of any kind, of course, speaks close to my heart. The completely arbitrary obsession with weird esoteric calendars and observances that most people, indeed, I would say most Catholics in the world, for example, don't even know about or care about. The fact that you really want to pay attention to this stuff simply because it is interesting and unusual and perhaps speaks to your faith, I appreciate geekery in all forms. And like most geekery, this geekery serves to sap the pleasure out of life by making it a bunch of weird rules and sort of increasingly nitpicky flame wars.

Yes. I like that. I like that. You're my kind of guy. I dig it. Thank you. I also think you're right to be contemplating death and the end of the world. Because as you know, Winter Solstice 2012, I don't know what's going to happen. We will either, the polarity of the world, the earth will reverse and we'll spin around

and get subsumed in a wave of blood. Or there'll be a total economic super collapse and we'll have to deal with cannibal gangs and the baseball furies. Or alternately, we'll all ascend to a new transcendent plane of consciousness, or at least some of us will grow gigantic new big brains to be eaten by the cannibal gangs. So we should be thinking about this and preparing for this, and I think that that is a reasonable thing to do with your teenage children. I also like people whose lives are run like a Flannery O'Connor short story, where a whole family wants to have fun except for one guy who wants to deny fun so that he can write it down in his little book?

However, while I appreciate what you're talking about, and why I appreciate your motives, I am not sure that the execution is particularly consistent in any way with anything. Christmas is an accumulation of various traditions Some of which are imported from paganism Some of which are imported from Protestant Germany Some of which are, you know, it is a syncretic observance Which has not really always had a lot to do with Catholicism

As arguably the first Christian church And Catholicism has not always wanted to have a lot to do with Catholicism as arguably the first Christian church, and Catholicism has not always wanted to have a lot to do with Christmas. And so, really, we are talking about traditions that have been adopted, transformed, and given new names as we need to use them in a kind of piney bricolage. Piney because of the scent of pine in the room. Bricolage, well, read your Levi's Dress. But the point I'm saying is this. There, you have not presented any evidence that I, or historical precedent that is particularly compelling to me that this is done in any house other than yours.

You have two teenage boys who need to live in the world as it is, not in the world as you want it to be in your depressing living room. I don't want them to be ostracized or be driven out of the house to places that are more cheerful. Your wife clearly feels as much desire to celebrate the closeness and happiness of the Christmas spirit as you feel that you want to deny it. So my ruling is this. The decoration of the tree must occur when your wife wants it to. However, to honor your religious belief, Jason, there should be another tree. Do you have a basement? We do not. I have a very depressing little attached shed behind the house. Perfect. Oh, yes. A depressing attached shed. Okay. Here's what you're going to do. You're going to go out and get yourself a sadness tree. You're going to put that in the shed.

And once a day, throughout Advent, you will go out there, and you will look at this tree and think about death. Here's the thing you want to do with this tree. Don't put it in water. Just don't even put it in a stand. Cut down a fir tree, bring it to your sadness shed, lean it against the wall, and watch day by day as it browns and get crunchy and drops its little piney leaves. And you can think about death and the end of the world. And you can think about death and the end of the world. And then you can walk back into the house and see your lovely wife and your two now happy and properly socialized teenage boys sitting in front of a beautiful decorated Christmas tree with a Santa hat on it. And for you, it will be a whole new conversion experience all over again. It will be like Scrooge walking into the Cratchits Christmas party and giving out geese and money

and ghosts or whatever it was he did. And you will feel great and they will feel great. And it will be a merry, happy Christmas for all buildings and loans everywhere. That is my sentence for you. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge Hodgman rules. That is my sentence for you. This is the sound of a gavel. Judge Hodgman rules. That is all. Please rise as Judge Sean Hodgman exits the courtroom.

I'm not actually going anywhere. Jason, your line of reasoning was found to be sympathetic, but ultimately the decision went against you. How are you feeling having had your religious convictions rendered incorrect by an entirely untrained pseudo-judge? I feel martyred. That's what you wanted all along. Yes.

I'm learning a lot about myself during this case, so I appreciate that. Brandy, when are you going to start putting the decorations up on the tree? Probably this weekend, if I can find a tree. It's going to be fun, huh? Yeah. The Judge John Hodgman Podcast is produced by myself, Jesse Thorne, and Julia Smith, and edited by me. You can find us online at MaximumFun.org where you can discuss the cases in our forum and share the programs via Twitter or Facebook. MaximumFun.org is supported by your donations.

If you'd like to donate to support the program, visit MaximumFun.org slash donate. You can catch Judge John Hodgman at sea as part of JoCo Cruise Crazy, the Jonathan Colton Cruise. For more information on this exciting adventure in maritime law, visit jococruisecrazy.com. You can find John Hodgman online at areasofmyexpertise.com. We'll see you next time on the Judge John Hodgman Podcast.